Mailbag: Sister Chenoeh, Jessica's Return, and Brian Herbert Novels

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast
Episode: Mailbag: Sister Chenua, Jessica's Return, and Brian Herbert Novels
Host/Author: Lore Party Media
Release Date: April 18, 2025

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Introduction to the Mailbag

In this engaging mailbag episode, hosts Abu and Leo delve into listener questions that explore intricate aspects of the Dune universe. Focusing primarily on Frank Herbert's later works, Heretics of Dune and Chapter House Dune, the hosts provide deep analyses and share thoughtful insights, catering both to longtime fans and newcomers.

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Power Dynamics Post-Scattering: Roman Cabalo's Inquiry

Listener Question:
Roman Cabalo asks whether the Sisterhood still operates from the shadows in the post-Scattering universe of Heretics of Dune, questioning who holds the true power given the diminished roles of factions like the Tleilaxu and Guild.

Discussion Highlights:

Abu and Leo explore the decentralized nature of power in Heretics of Dune, highlighting that traditional centralized governance has fragmented. They emphasize the Bene Gesserit and Bene Tleilaxu still wield significant influence through subterfuge and manipulation rather than overt control.

Notable Quotes:

• Leo [05:32]: "Heretics of Dune introduces us to a thoroughly post Leto universe that does seem to be avoiding any form of centralized governance."
• Abu [09:19]: "Traditional warfare in the Dune universe practically doesn't exist either. It's much more subterfuge, assassins, and small-scale conflicts."

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The Legacy of Sister Chenua: Samuel Linisky's Question

Listener Question:
Samuel Linisky points out a discrepancy between the Dune Encyclopedia, which states the cult of Sister Chenua ended 600 years prior, and Heretics of Dune, where Chenua is still revered.

Discussion Highlights:

The hosts clarify that the Dune Encyclopedia, published in 1984, precedes Frank Herbert's final novels and thus doesn't account for developments in Heretics and Chapter House. They infer that Sister Chenua's legacy persists in varying forms—respected by the priests and symbolically honored by the Bene Gesserit.

Notable Quotes:

• Abu [18:42]: "High Priest Headley Tuek thinks, 'reverence was demanded for those who were beloved of God, such as the saintly Chenua.'"
• Leo [20:30]: "It's less of a holy figure for the Sisterhood and more of a symbol of their ideals."

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Jessica’s Return to the Bene Gesserit: Jake Haney’s Curiosity

Listener Question:
Jake Haney is intrigued by Jessica’s voluntary return to the Bene Gesserit after her departure in the first novel, seeking to understand her motivations.

Discussion Highlights:

Abu and Leo discuss theories surrounding Jessica's return, considering both genetic predispositions and psychological dependencies on the Sisterhood. They reference Reddit analyses suggesting Jessica’s strength is tied to the support systems she was part of, such as Leto's and the Bene Gesserit, implying her return is influenced by the absence of these supports.

Notable Quotes:

• Leo [23:02]: "Jessica is only as strong as the group she is a part of. She is able to defy the Sisterhood because Leto is supporting her."
• Abu [26:22]: "Jessica disobeyed her orders out of belief in the moral purpose of the Bene Gesserit. Her return aligns with her commitment to what she believes is best for humanity."

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The Prophecy of Kralizak: Madison Chamberland’s Insight

Listener Question:
Madison Chamberland contemplates whether Kralizak symbolizes the end of the 'human' (lowercase h) humans—those lacking discipline and ingenuity—as humanity evolves into 'Human' (capital H) beings.

Discussion Highlights:

The hosts delve into the philosophical underpinnings of Kralizak, linking it to the transformation of humanity envisioned by Leto II. They discuss the possibility that Kralizak represents a paradigm shift where capital H humans overcome their baser instincts, contrasting with the Honored Matres who embody the lower H traits.

Notable Quotes:

• Leo [33:12]: "Kralizak might symbolize the end of the little h humans who have been trying to destroy themselves for millennia."
• Abu [35:43]: "The Honored Matres, emerging from the Scattering, seem to represent those lower h human traits, challenging the disciplined capital H humans of the old Imperium."

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Rapid Fire Q&A

Expanding to Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson's Canon

Listener Question:
Jalen Williams and Madison express a desire for the podcast to cover Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson's Dune novels, despite mixed opinions on their writing quality.

Discussion Highlights:

Abu and Leo consider the strategic benefits of addressing Brian Herbert's contributions, acknowledging listener interest while balancing their dedication to Frank Herbert's original works. They hint at future episodes that will touch upon these expansions without committing to an in-depth exploration immediately.

Notable Quotes:

• Abu [40:14]: "Brian Herbert's books are part of the larger Dune universe, and covering them could strategically benefit the podcast."
• Leo [42:32]: "We do have an episode planned for Sisterhood of Dune, but it won't mirror the depth of our current book club discussions."

Count Fenring vs. Paul’s Prescience

Listener Question:
Liam inquires why Count Fenring does not awaken prescience like Paul Atreides does, despite both being potential Kwisatz Haderach candidates.

Discussion Highlights:

The hosts explain that Paul's awakening is a result of a perfect storm of genetic predisposition, training, and unique circumstances orchestrated by both the Bene Gesserit and his upbringing. Fenring, lacking these exact conditions, does not achieve the same prescient abilities.

Notable Quotes:

• Leo [47:21]: "Paul is a perfect storm of the things necessary to be prescient."
• Abu [48:20]: "Fenring lacked one or more of the critical ingredients that made Paul so special."

Bene Gesserit and Parental Awareness

Listener Question:
Xavi Aquino questions how Bene Gesserit members can have access to ancestral memories yet seemingly remain unaware of their own parentage, such as Jessica's relation to Baron Harkonnen.

Discussion Highlights:

Abu and Leo tackle the complexities of Bene Gesserit's memory access, suggesting that certain memories, especially regarding parental lineage, are either blocked or not fully accessible until achieving higher ranks like Reverend Mother. They propose that strategic memory suppression ensures loyalty and prevents personal biases from interfering with Bene Gesserit objectives.

Notable Quotes:

• Abu [50:09]: "Bene Gesserit acolytes do not know anything about their families unless it's part of a larger plan."
• Leo [53:43]: "Jessica might not have accessed her full ancestral memories, making her unaware of her father until revealed by Paul."

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

In wrapping up, Abu and Leo reflect on the depth and evolving nature of the Dune saga, appreciating how each installment adds layers to the intricate universe. They encourage listeners to continue engaging with the series, emphasizing the endless possibilities for exploration and interpretation within Frank Herbert's masterpiece.

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Remember to subscribe to Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast for insightful discussions every other Friday and dive deeper into the sands of Arrakis with Abu and Leo!

Transcript

[Leo]

Today on the show. The attack was quick and totally overpowering. But you had time to leave a message in the wear marks in the furniture. Dear listener, what did your message say? It said horse rude. What the hell? I'm just kidding. You left questions in the wear marks in the furniture and we are here to answer them. This is a furniture based mailbag.

[Abu]

Sponsored by Value City ikea. Ikea. There we go. I don't know why my brain went. Value City.

[Leo]

Value City, today's sponsor.

[Abu]

Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe. From Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name's Abu.

[Leo]

My name is Leo.

[Abu]

And folks, it's time for another mailbag episode.

[Leo]

Hell yeah. Always fun.

[Abu]

Yeah, these are always fun. Now, of course, this is part of our Heretics of Dune book club. A lot of today's conversation and some of today's questions will be focused on Heretics of Dune as we slowly make our way toward the end of that book.

[Leo]

Yeah, and that is also our spoiler warning today. There is no spoilers beyond the pages we've covered in the book club so far. So if you are up to date with our Heretics of Dune book club, you are safe to listen.

[Abu]

That's right. And of course, a huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons, Rob Silver, Daniel Dion, Jonathan Lambert and C.R. spruell.

[Leo]

Yes.

[Abu]

A huge heartfelt thank you to our Queeze Ads Haderach level patrons. The show does not get made without your support. Of course. Our gratitude extends to all of our patrons at every level who truly built the foundation upon which this production runs.

[Leo]

It's true. And hey, if you are suffering from subscription fatigue, we pretty recently enabled the option for the buy us a coffee thing. There's a one time donation. You can show your appreciation that way. Treat us to a spice coffee. Treat us to a spice beer. Whatever you want. That link is in the show notes as well.

[Abu]

That's right. Okay, with the housekeeping done, you know the game plan for these mailbag episodes, folks. You sent us questions via email or discord or carrier pigeon and we are going to be cracking open that mailbag and answering as many of them as we can cram into today in a reasonable amount of time. But also, do not worry if your question didn't make it into today's episode. We, we always like to sprinkle in the occasional mailbag throughout the year and maybe we'll catch you on the next one. So keep sending those questions in, keep emailing us, and keep hitting us up in discord Indeed.

[Leo]

Before we get into our questions though, we are going to take a quick break, so don't go anywhere. Dear listeners, the episode hasn't started. That would be sociopathic to leave now. Hang out. We'll be right back right after this. This episode is brought to you by Chevy Silverado.

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[Leo]

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[Abu]

Welcome back folks. Let's dive right in to your questions and our answers. Yeah, first up, we have a question from a former Kwisatz Haderach patron himself, Roman Cabalo. Remember him? Yeah, Roman asks in Discord quote in the last book club episode for Heretics. You guys were chatting about how the Sisterhood is supposed to be working in the background, pulling strings of power, but actually not being the figurehead in charge. Does this still hold true in the post scattering? Who's actually in charge in Dune? Heretics Is the Sisterhood no longer controlling things from the shadows as in previous books? It doesn't seem like the Tleilaxu IX or Guild are really doing much, and it's just the Sisterhood battling against the honored Matres. Please weigh in with your thoughts.

[Leo]

Hey Roman, what a great question. Yes, and one we've seen echoed across the Internet because I think the Imperium looks a certain way until the end of God, Emperor of Dune. And then we jump forward and we're dropped into a very different style of universe. So we really enjoy this opportunity to talk about this. So first we have to acknowledge that who appears to be in power is going to be very different in this book because for the first time in the Dune franchise, we are now perceiving the universe from within the Bene Gesserit. So I just want to throw out there the perspective that we have in Heretics of Dune may not be that different than the perspective, the kind of POV you you are, Reverend Mother Superior of the Bene Gesserit in 10,191 AG, back in the time of Paul and House Atreides and all that.

[Abu]

Yeah, exactly.

[Leo]

But to answer Roman's question, Heretics of Dune introduces us to a thoroughly post Leto universe that does seem to be avoiding any form of centralized governance. Right. There's no emperor, There's. There's no central power controlling the whole universe. There's really no one person in charge. Which is almost certainly a remnant of Leto's lesson the there will never be another tyrant again. There will never be this station that someone can arrest and use for their own gain or whatever.

[Abu]

Yeah, exactly.

[Leo]

Nevertheless, at Leto's death, there were the Fish Speakers. Right. His military arm. And they were inherited by Siona and Duncan. And so while they were still around, and they are still around at the time of heretics, over centuries their influence waned. And by the time of Heretics of Dune, we hear from Tuek Fish Speakers, the modern carriers of the name had only a small trading spy delegation on Rakis composed of both men and women. Their ancient origins no longer were significant to their current activities, mostly working as an arm of I. So we can see that at some point the Fish Speakers kind of merged with II goals and influence.

[Abu]

Yeah. Also notable that composed of both men and women.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Leto's all female army has by this time, a thousand plus years later, been diluted with the presence of men. And their mission has clearly changed. And as you stated, they've been absorbed into the mission of the Ixians at this point.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's a very different organization for sure. And the other thing here is. You go, okay, so now they're part of Ix. Great. Well, isn't Ix just controlled by the Benny Toileks? And this is something that's confirmed by Waf earlier, I think. This is chapter five. Both the Fish Speakers and IX have Face Dancers sitting in the highest councils.

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

Which also means that the Tleilaxu masters and the Tleilaxu are weirdly kind of one of the most influential groups in the universe, only maybe muted by the fact that they're not trying to draw the spotlight to them. They are still very much being a secretive culture, keeping their grand design hidden from the Poinda filth of the rest.

[Abu]

Of the universe, right? Biding their time, Right?

[Leo]

So rather than ruling outright, the Bene Tleilax, very influential. And of course the Bene Gesserit, still very influential, are staying subtle with their subterfuge, only really getting involved in big battles when they absolutely need to. So, for instance, this most recent chapter with Teg, right, and the waves of face dancers coming from the forest and the Tleilaxu masters in the back, right, we see a ground force of Tleilax. So we know that they have this. But also the Bene Gesserit command big forces. We know they have Bashars and Grand Bashar or Supreme Bashars, they have military forces. But most of the conflicts, the specific conflicts we get examples of, seem to be like putting down rebellions in worlds that the Bene Gesserit control rather than going to toe to toe with like other galactic powers. Right? This isn't the Bene Gesserit battling the Spacing Guild or battling Ix or something like that. This is them sort of quieting rebellions.

[Abu]

Exactly. It's not traditional warfare, and we've talked about this before a long time ago, but traditional warfare in the Dune universe practically doesn't exist either. Yeah, nobody really goes out onto the field of battle and has Henry V, like give a speech and then charge that just. That type of warfare doesn't exist in the Dune universe. It's much more subterfuge, it's much more assassins, it's much more small scale, quite isolated incidences and conflicts. For example, the attack on Arrakeen by the Harkonnen and Sardaukar forces, that was one attack on one city that was part of a larger conspiracy. There was no all out warfare. And we're still in a similar space in the current universe. But I do think it's notable that the Bene Gesserit even have armed forces in the first place, even if it is just to take out small pockets of resistance on local planets. My understanding was that back in the time of Paul Atreides, they are so much working from the shadows that they don't even have access to their own sort of standing army of any sorts or even mercenaries of any sorts. They're working through the Great Houses and the Emperor and all of the other folks that they're manipulating. Those are the forces and chess pieces that they're moving around. So I think it's notable that in our current universe, in Heretics of Dune, they have their own chess pieces that they're moving around.

[Leo]

Yeah. And that also feels very much like a post leto innovation within the Bene Gesserit. Like, I don't imagine the Bene Gesserit had Bashars and armed forces at the time of the tyrant. So they kind of. I think the Bene Gesserit's MO is always recognizing the levers of power and wielding them in the most efficient way possible. And just having their own armed forces didn't really make sense until there was no centralized power to manipulate. And now they have to kind of have their own way of getting things done. Enter Miles Tag. Enter the armed forces of the Bene Gesserit.

[Abu]

As always, our wonderful nerdy community on Discord and Patreon also had some thoughts in response to Roman's question. And I wanted to share some quotes because I think they quite neatly summarize what we're talking about here. Not a robot AI, for example, wrote, quote, my impression of the post scattering universe and heretics and chapter house is that everything is a lot less centralized. There are great powers, but no single superpower. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And yet another Miles Teg clone wrote, quote, wonderful username, by the way. Quote, almost every monopoly that defines the first four books has been broken. It's really quite shocking. There are two sources of mirage. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah. Again, very different universe that we're looking at.

[Abu]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Leo]

So, in short, just to summarize, by the time of heretics of Dune, decentralized government, no single person in charge. And it seems like from the Poinda conference addressing like, okay, this Atreides manifesto has been spread. What do we do about it? It is what do we do about it? It is the major factions meeting to hash out imperial business. And as always, from the shadows, we have the Bene Gesserit and the Bene Tleilax, their plans within plans. That's basically it. So thank you again, Roman, for such an excellent question. Always fun to kind of take a step back and look at the structure of the imperial kind of power dynamic. It's fun.

[Abu]

Yeah. It's evolving over the course of this series.

[Leo]

It is indeed. Now, next up, we have an email from Samuel Linisky. Sorry, Samuel. The encyclopedia notes that the cult of Sister chenua only lasted 600 years, and by the time of writing the article, the cult was deceased. But O'Doyde spends time looking over a bust of Sister Genoa in a place of honor in the chapter house. I seem to remember the implication that she was still revered. And the encyclopedia is set in universe to be written around the time of the events of Heretics and Chapter House. So do you think she is still revered just in a much smaller way? Maybe a small cult, maybe revival, maybe just within the Sisterhood and both can be linked? Or is this a case where the books and encyclopedia disagree?

[Abu]

Mmm, great question, Samuel. Thank you so much for writing in. I think, actually this question serves as an excellent reminder for folks who may not be aware or who might have forgotten about where exactly the Encyclopedia fits into the larger Dune canon. Yeah, it's something that we talked about perhaps at the start of this book club, but now's a good time to remind folks that the Encyclopedia was actually published in 1984 before the release of Heretics and Chapter House. Yeah, and that's notable because that basically means that we can't rely on the Encyclopedia as a source of reliable, expanded lore now that we're getting into these last two books by Frank Herbert. And in fact, you might have noticed, dear listener, that that Leo and I have been referencing the Encyclopedia way less in this current book club series than we did in the previous four. And that's the reason why the Encyclopedia takes into account the first four books, but was published and released before Frank could write the last two.

[Leo]

Right. Yeah.

[Abu]

So that is a key limitation of that encyclopedia. And as we've shared in the past, Frank gave the Dune Encyclopedia his blessing, but at the same time, he also held the right to take his universe in whatever direction he wanted in future Dune books. Here's actually a foreword for the encyclopedia that Frank wrote in 1983 that was published at the top of the Encyclopedia. As the first Dune fan, I give this encyclopedia my delighted approval, although I hold my own counsel on some of the issues still to be explored as the Chronicles unfold. End quote. So there it is in Frank's own words. Big fan of the Encyclopedia, gave it his blessing, but also, hey, this is my universe. I'm not going to be beholden to what a bunch of super fans wrote about it, and I'm free to take it in any direction I want. And he did. He took it in dramatically different directions in Heretics and Chapter House that do diverge in many ways from what was written in the Encyclopedia. So we have to always keep that in mind.

[Leo]

Yeah, I'll actually say we should. That would be a good episode to do.

[Abu]

It would be.

[Leo]

It's just like. That would be fun, the ways that it ends up disagreeing. And because the Dune encyclopedias in Universe, a lot of the kind of mistakes or the lore differences can be written off as propaganda. Or misremembered things or historians getting things wrong. But, yeah, it would be fun to talk about that because it's pretty well documented, the differences between his lore and the encyclopedia.

[Abu]

Yeah. Now, we didn't want to leave Samuel hanging, so I did want to just sort of lightly address the speculative part of Samuel's question about what happened to the cult of Sister Chenua. How is Sister Chenua remembered? Obviously, we don't have answers. The Encyclopedia doesn't give us solid answers. Frank wasn't too pressed about Sister Chenua and heretics, but we do get references to her, as Samuel noted. And so maybe we can connect some dots and theorize. I wanted to share a couple of quotes that I found in my research. We know from Heretics of Dune that Sister Genoa holds a special place for both the sisterhood and actually for the priests of the divided God. For example, early on in Heretics, High Priest Headley Tuek thinks, quote, reverence was demanded for those who were beloved of God, such as the saintly Chenua. End quote.

[Leo]

Okay. I mean, she talked to God for a little bit and he wasn't here.

[Abu]

As they were walking. Just a little walk and talk action.

[Leo]

Otherwise known as beloved, like, all right, sure.

[Abu]

Now, also in Heretics, Taraza is looking at the bust of Chenua in her office or in one of the rooms in Chapter House, and she thinks, quote, you knew you were never a reverent mother, but you still knew. Your reports show it. How did you know to make the right decision? End quote. So, obviously, Taraza struggling with being in charge and throughout Heretics of Dune. And this is one moment where she reflects on Sister Jenua. Later on in Heretics, Odrade herself is looking at the very same bust and observes, quote, chenua guardian symbol of Chapter House, end quotes. So kind of piecing those data points together, for me, it seems that Chenua doesn't necessarily have a cult like following anymore, at least not in the way that it's described in the encyclopedia. Rather, I think she's just a historical figure that is remembered and honored in different ways depending on how you look at her. For the priests, she's clearly this, like, near holy, saintly person who was in the good graces of their God Leto II and Shai Hulud, the worm they worship. Whereas I think it's a little bit different for the sisterhood. I get the feeling that for the sisterhood, for people like Taraza and Odrade, Chenua is more of a symbol of one of their best, you know, someone to aspire to as a sister of the Bene Gesserit, someone who really lived the ideals of our sisterhood.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And I think it's less holy for the sisterhood than it is for the priests.

[Leo]

Yeah, I agree. And you know, great research overall. I think it's always interesting to find these little through lines that exist within the story but aren't focused on in the kind of main light. Well, thank you again for the question, Samuel. Excellent. Love to see some love for Sister Chenua. She's apparently beloved after her walk in, talk with the manager.

[Abu]

Shouts to our girl.

[Leo]

Shouts to our girl. All right, we're going to take a quick break. Don't go anywhere though. We have a bunch more questions. Expanded universe questions, some rapid fire ones, a lot of good stuff. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

[Abu]

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[Leo]

Selection varies by location while supplies last. Discount taken at time of purchase.

[Abu]

Actual plant size and selection varies by location. Excludes Alaska and Hawaii. Welcome back folks. Let's continue our mailbag today by looking at some more Expanded Universe questions zooming out beyond just the confines of Heretics of Dune. Let's start with an email from Moosehunter11b, whose real name we've just now learned is Jake Haney. Hi Jake.

[Leo]

Hi Jake.

[Abu]

After some background and really lovely message, Jake asks, quote, since reading, I became increasingly fascinated with Jessica's character and her arc. Part of what I'm interested in is her interest in going back to the Bene Gesserit, seemingly so willingly after breaking from them in the first novel. What makes her fall back into those ways? End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah Jake, excellent question. Thank you for asking. Thank you again everyone who sent Messages in this is a surprisingly deep question that was especially interesting to look at now that we have additional insights about the Bene Gesserit in Heretics of Dune. I'm so glad that our book club has made it here, because now our conversations can be more nuanced as we have more information about this cool faction. Yeah, so first up, I wanted to share an analysis that I found on Reddit. This is one that, you know, it's pretty easy to find online, but this is from HolyObsenity. User HolyObsenity. On Reddit, Jessica is only as strong as the group she is a part of. She is able to defy the Sisterhood because Leto is supporting her. Once Leto is dead, she relies on the strength of the Fremen and Paul. Once Paul is gone, she returns to the Sisterhood, where she gained her original support system. The Baron is the same way. He exploits weaknesses and networks and acts like he is in charge, but he needs support from the emperor, from Piter, etc. He cannot function without support. Hence the symbolism of the Suspensers. His ambition is as large as his body, and he can support neither without outside help. End quote. Fucking bars.

[Abu]

Cool.

[Leo]

Super sick.

[Abu]

I had never thought of it that way.

[Leo]

Yeah, very, very cool. Feels also within Frank's sort of approach to character building and world building. Like all this feels very in line with Frank's stuff and also fascinating to see this Jessica Barron connection considering their Harkonnen lineage. Right. So very interesting theory from Holy Obscenity. Loved that. Now, on kind of a meta note, Brian mentions this, and we've talked about this on the podcast before, but Frank was raised by Jesuit aunts and had this kind of like, Catholic upbringing. Those Jesuit aunts went on to be the inspiration for the Bene Gesserit. So with that in mind, it is interesting to see Jessica as maybe a. A representative of someone who breaks from their religion, for instance, like leaves their family's religion, only to return later. It is a pretty well documented phenomenon that people will sometimes do this, so I could also see this being a part of his commentary as well. Someone who was raised so deeply reliant on the Sisterhood might find once they've left the sisterhood for a period, they might have a hard time finding something to fill that gap in their life, and they might come back to it. That being said, as deep as we are into heretics, we actually now have some additional perspective, which I think could shed some light on maybe why Jessica tumbled back into the Bene Gesserit fold and specifically if we take the example of everyone's favorite trucker, Shuang Yu, and specifically her life, but specifically her death, we see even the most staunch heretic within the sisterhood using her final moments toward the good of the Bene Gesserit order.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

So although Jessica disobeyed orders. Right. She disobeyed her orders. She had a son instead of a daughter. She still believed in what Teg calls the moral purpose of the Bene Gesserit. So, of course, once the dust settled from Paul's rise to power, her return to service to the Sisterhood isn't really that strange. Like, okay, I did my thing, but I also did that believing he was the Quiesas Haderach. And looks like I was right. And looks like our plan for the Kwisatz Haderach was maybe wrong. What can I do now to help humanity? Well, I still think that the Bene Gesserit is still in order for good. So, of course, she returns to service. Perhaps surprising that they let her back, considering how much of a betrayal she committed, but nevertheless, all we can do really, is speculate. Based on that information, we don't ultimately know what happens between Dune and the start of Children of Dune. We know she's on Caladan. We know she's sipping Mai Tais. It's implied she's banging Gurney.

[Abu]

Ghosty fucking Gurney.

[Leo]

Hallett fucking Gurney. Hallett. Gurney in the streets, Gurney in the sheets. But Also, we're not 100% sure. And we don't know what that conversation with the Bene Gesserit looked like to.

[Abu]

Be a fly on the wall. In those FaceTime calls between Jessica and.

[Leo]

The Sisterhood, it's always just Jessica getting into a call with what she thinks is going to be a nice conversation. And then it's the Sisterhood and HR and she's like, God damn it. God damn it.

[Abu]

When HR Joins the call, you know. You know you're absolutely fucked.

[Leo]

Yeah, well, excellent question. Wonderful question. Moose Hunter, AKA Jake Haney, really appreciated this opportunity to look at Jessica and examine her character a little bit more.

[Abu]

Yeah, always fun. All right, next up, we have a question from Madison Chamberland. Madison asks, quote, I was listening to the Children of Dune book club, part 11, where Leto is telling the preacher that Kralazak is the end of humans. Given the first book's distinction between animals and capital H humans, do you think there's a second or layered meaning here that maybe Kralisak would be the end of humans who have long distance visions and discipline and curiosity and wanderlust and ingenuity, the nearsighted lowercase humans would be left to peck each other to death, just as they've been trying to do for tens of thousands of years. End quote. Wow.

[Leo]

Oh, what a cool question, Madison.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And I love this approach because I think Frank was very deliberate with these conversations that happen early and then continue to be themes throughout. And I have some thoughts regarding specifically the honored matre and the people returning from the scattering. But before I get to my fun tinfoil hat theories, let's maybe define Kraliszek for those of you who've forgotten. And I think this is mostly from Children of Dune, Right?

[Abu]

Yeah. You did a great job pulling these quotes about Kraliszek because it was a few books ago, and I think it helps to orient ourselves and revisit exactly what Kralisik is described as. So here's a quote from Children of Kralizek that wasn't merely war or revolution. That was the typhoon struggle. It was a word from the furthermost Fremen legends, the battle at the end of the universe. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And then later in the book, Leto is telling Merize that it will absolutely happen. Kralozek is a surety. And at the end, we get this from the Guild will barely make it through the lean years, and only then because of its stockpiles and hours, Ganima said, but there will be abundance after Kraluzek. The worms will return after my brother goes into the sand. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Which of course, takes on greater meaning after having read God, Emperor of Dune and understood the events of Leto II's demise and what that means for the pearls of wisdom and the return of a sandy desert planet. You know, Rakis is once again the Dune of old, Worms and all.

[Leo]

It's so fun to see this moment where it's prophetic. She's talking about this far distant thing. Once my brother's endless rule ends, this thing will happen.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And we read God, Emperor of Dune. We saw his endless rule, or we saw the end of it. And then now we're reading Heretics, and it's distant history. It's like ancient, ancient history.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

I love it. I mean, this is also what I love about foundation, but the fact that these books spans so much time lets.

[Abu]

You explore so many facets of religion and human society and philosophy and prophecy from prophetic figures.

[Leo]

And now we get to actually see how did that prophecy play out and did Kralisik happen? Kind of like the universe didn't end, but we were just Talking about how the heretics universe is a very different universe than when Leto was in charge.

[Abu]

Exactly.

[Leo]

And that paradigm shift, apparently, is Kraluzek. So cool. So, so, so cool.

[Abu]

Exactly. And of course, the story doesn't end with Leto's death and God Emperor of Dune. Here we are in Heretics. And of course, we have Chapter House. Coming up next, two more books that take place far after what Ganima is describing here and what Leto says about Kralisik in Children of Dune. So to get to Madison's original question here, I think Madison poses it quite well and is quite spot on. It's very much in line with many of the themes and ideas that Frank is sprinkling throughout the early books. And we're sort of seeing them come to fruition here in the latter books. Leto, of course, the tyrant. His goal was to create a universe to oppress and suppress humanity in order to bring about this scattering, to make sure that humanity could never be eliminated by a single threat, to avoid the many extinction level dangers that he saw in his visions. We saw him work 3,500 years toward that goal. And I really like Madison's interpretation that perhaps the goal, the ultimate danger that Leto is avoiding is the danger of these quote unquote, little H humans, the type of humanity that would, as Madison put it so beautifully, peck each other to death as they have been trying for thousands of years.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Would bring about their own destruction.

[Leo]

Right, Right.

[Abu]

Leto has perhaps planted the seeds for a future humanity that is capital H humanity, A humanity that maintains their curiosity, their ingenuity, their imagination, all of the things that Frank and Leto clearly value. It's also interesting to consider when exactly Cralusac happened. Right. Has it already happened? Was Leto's rule itself the typhoon struggle. You could interpret the end of one universe and the start of another as perhaps the famine times and the scattering. Right. The end of the original universe of Dune that we knew for the first four books. The centralized power, the little H humans, the conflict, the politicking, and the birth of a new universe. And in fact, humans in a totally other universe out there in the Scattering that we don't even know. You could interpret Kraluzek as that, or you could say that Kralozek has not happened even now in Heretics and is still something so far out in the future that humanity is still in the midst of this typhoon struggle and still must continue to fight to hold onto their capital H. Humaneness.

[Leo]

Yeah. It kind of reminds me of the Kwisatz Haderach was Always described as this singular historic being, like this legendary. This is the Kwisatz Haderach. The Kwisatz Haderach. But I think as we look back on five Dune books, there are a few people who've been these kind of pivotal moments in history. These individuals with prescient abilities. Was Paul the Kwisatz Haderach? I think we generally say yes, but then was Leto the Kwisatz Haderach? And then we're like, well, maybe, maybe there are multiple Kwisatz Haderachs. So similarly, maybe Kralizek is just that, to your point, this is one of those paradigm shifting struggles that changes everything we know about the documentable universe. That's super interesting to think about now, as kind of a bonus point to all of this, the Honored Matres returning from the Scattering. It strikes me how thinking about the lowercase h humanity and what does it mean to be not a capital H human. Right? You're reactive. Maybe you're more kind of just in your senses and with no discipline or.

[Abu]

Your baser human instincts, you take your hand out of a box that makes it hurt instead of fighting through it.

[Leo]

Yeah, exactly. That's the sort of thing that the Bene Gesserit really despises. And then you have the Honored Matre coming back, and they have many similarities to the Bene Gesserit, but in the ways that they are different. All feel like lowercase H stuff. You know, they're formidable, for sure, but they're also like really leaning into sex and sexuality. They are grabbing the reins of power. They are taking control. They are conquering planets and being the ones on the thrones. Why would you ever do that? A Bene Gesserit wonders. So they seem almost short sighted as well, like they're doing this thing that inevitably what they're doing will result in their destruction, and they're just going to drag the rest of humanity down with them. So it's fascinating to think about the people from the Scattering, and in particular the Honored Matre, being these lowercase H humans, away from the sort of systems of control and discipline and teaching of the Bene Gesserit, but also now the Bene Gesserit, who have always been perhaps too stagnant to conservative in the way that they address their system. The fact that this whole book that we're reading now is about heretics who challenged the sort of status quo within the Bene Gesserit sisterhood. All of this leads to a very interesting possibility that we are seeing truly in Heretics of Dune, the capital H, humans of the old Imperium, having to wrestle with the baser lowercase H, humans who in some ways are still formidable and still a challenge and a threat, but having to kind of come out of that struggle alive and intact. And what does that mean? And how do you have to change? So I loved this question from Addison. And in particular, looking at that, like, human. Human distinction in the context of the scattering.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So anyway, I thought that was a lot of fun. Kind of neat.

[Abu]

Yeah. And for what it's worth, we will learn more about the honored Matres in Chapter House. So this will be a fun idea to revisit once we're into that book club.

[Leo]

That's true. Thank you again, Madison.

[Abu]

Thank you.

[Leo]

All right, next up, we have some rapid fire questions. So we got a lot of questions that are sometimes pretty quick to answer. And we figured this time around in this book club, we would just knock them out nice and fast.

[Abu]

Hell yeah.

[Leo]

And starting off, we've got a question from. And this is a combination, kind of a one, two punch, Jalen Williams and Madison again. Actually, it's the second part of her email from earlier regarding Brian Herbert's books. So Jaylen wrote in response to our listener survey, and to be clear, Jalen's message was a lot of really beautiful sentiments. But then continues. Quote, I hate to say it, but I believe it is time to start covering the Brian Herbert, Kevin J. Anderson canon. I share many of your judgments about the books completely. They are difficult to start, harder to finish, but they are still part of the larger Dune universe, for better or for worse, regardless of anyone's opinions about the writing quality or their hierarchical position in the canon or the hubris that went into their inception. End quote. And Jalen goes on to mention that for Dune fans who have read the Brian Herbert books, you know, they've done whatever personal work they needed to to get through those books. There really aren't that many places talking about those books in any serious, entertaining, fun, thorough way.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And Jaylen finishes their email. Quote, Please, please, please consider expanding. End quote. And Madison continued in her message from earlier. Quote, I think it would be fun to speculate how Frank meant to follow up Chapter House, given your understanding of all the foreshadowing. He hides in plain sight. Also, I just need to hear someone rant about how bad Hunters and Sandworms is. End quote. So what do you say, Abu? Do you want to talk about Brian Herbert books?

[Abu]

I mean, I don't want to, but I actually, Jalen's message was actually quite Convincing, I will say.

[Leo]

Agreed.

[Abu]

You know, as much as I am dedicated to the art of what we do, I'm also quite a strategically minded person. And Jaylen's point that there isn't really a space online to talk deeply. I mean, as deeply as you can talk about Brian Herbert books.

[Leo]

Good footnote. Yeah.

[Abu]

And you know, to me, I'm like, okay, if there's an audience there and if it still helps us continue growing the podcast and continuing cultivating a community and space where people can talk about these things. And it still, like, sort of aligns with our strategic goals because at the end of the day, we are creating a podcast in a space that we love, but also we're running a business that has bills and things need to get, you know, things have to get paid. So, yeah, I think, honestly, like, Jalen's pitch to me is less a convincing argument that I should read more Brian Herbert books, but perhaps more of a convincing argument that this podcast could strategically benefit from covering Brian Herbert books. I'm a little more open to it. I still don't want to. Deep down in my heart of hearts, I don't want to. But I do think as we cover things like the Dune Prophecy HBO show and other potential properties that crop up in this universe.

[Leo]

Yeah. Like the graphic novels and stuff, it.

[Abu]

Just kind of is the reality that we live in Brian Herbert's Dune universe. There's no avoiding it. And as more Dune things happen in the future and as we cover them, the option to avoid Brian's work will be less and less. You know, we're already having to tackle much of it head on in our coverage of Dune Prophecy, the HBO show. So I'm open to the idea. I think we still have some time, for what it's worth. We still have to get through Heretics. We still have to get through all of Chapter House, which is a very dense book. And to Madison's point, I would actually like to get through Hunters and Sandworms. Maybe not in as deep dive book club style, but I would still like to complete the series that Frank would have envisioned for whatever it's worth. So I think we have time to figure out how we'll tackle the Brian strategy in the future. What do you think, though?

[Leo]

Yeah, I think it's worth mentioning we actually do have an episode planned which is going to cover Sisterhood of Dune.

[Abu]

It's true. Yeah.

[Leo]

And it's not going to be covering it in the same way that, like, Hanging Heretics is being covered. Again, we didn't go chapter by chapter. I did write chapter summaries for all 100 chapters, so I made that available. Enjoy that on Patreon. I'm not opposed. I'm also not opposed. And I appreciate that there are fans out there who either don't like Jalen. Doesn't sound like the number one Brian Herbert fan. I think you're right. Keep in mind, listeners, that an episode of Gom Jabbar takes like 20 hours of work and we have to be making the business decision of can we afford to spend that time on this thing? And if people aren't going to listen to it and aren't going to enjoy it, we shouldn't do it just from a time standpoint. So if we were making a podcast for Brian Herbert fans, I genuinely don't think there's enough of them who are, like, staunch, he can do no wrong fans. I think the much larger demographic are Frank Herbert fans who have sort of gotten to that point of going, well, it's not the same. You know, Jalen proposed. Maybe you even think of it as like a separate timeline or an alternate universe that's very similar. Right. Multiverse solves all this. Is the dark timeline true or whatever. Right. I think there are quite a few people who are in that boat and we have some. I think I was talking to Daniel about this, and Daniel's someone who, as a Kwisatz Haderach level patron, has read all of Frank's books, but then is also now reading quite a few of Brian's books. For people like Daniel, I imagine covering the books is something that they would appreciate, but we have to be strategic about how we do that. And one of my big critiques of Brian's books is that they are very long and not very well trimmed. So there's a lot of really annoying fluff. So I don't know. We're not opposed. We do have to get through Frank's books. I like the idea, Abu, of doing Chapter House, finishing Chapter House, doing a two or three episode series on Hunter Sandworms and then a final episode to be like, here's what we think to Madison's question. Here's what we think based on what we know as, like, lore experts, here's what we think Frank would have done.

[Abu]

Yeah. Many of our listeners have asked us that over the years, you know.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Oh, my gosh. How would you finish Frank's story after book six?

[Leo]

Based on his. Yeah, everything.

[Abu]

Based on everything. You know, And I'm hesitant to respond to that question yet because I want to get through our book club series and I want to get through our deep dive research first.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But I think that is an episode we will for sure do once we get through all of this.

[Leo]

And then once that episode's done, we will probably have to step back and look at what Gom Jabbar is going to be after having gone through all.

[Abu]

Of Frank's writings and practically all the encyclopedia.

[Leo]

Practically all the. By that time, for sure. I mean, we're talking about a year and change out. So for sure there's a decision that we have to make at some point. What I would say for anybody who wants us to cover Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson books, listen to our sisterhood episode when it's out. If you are on the public feed, it might already be out. If you're on the Patreon feed, it's coming at some point. Listen to that. Give us your feedback. Let us know what you think about it and let us know now. Let us know now how you want us to cover those books. Do you want us to treat it as if it is the same canonicity even though it like regularly conflicts with the stuff? Like a lot of the shit we've talked about over the last four years is just out the window. If we're taking it seriously as like Dune World building, how do you want us to handle that? Like, what would you prefer if we talk about Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson books? What do people think? Put it in discord, email us whatever, let us know. It's a decision we're going to have to make eventually. And the more we know what you want, the better we'll be able to provide that.

[Abu]

Yeah, for now we're going to continue procrastinating on that decision.

[Leo]

Yeah, let's kick that can as hard as we can. So it's way down, down the road.

[Abu]

Regardless. Jalen Madison, thank you for your thoughts on this specific topic and how we should perhaps tackle the Brian books. We're curious to hear other folks what other folks think as well, but thank you for writing in.

[Leo]

Yeah, we'll probably do. We should do a survey. We should do a Brian Herman focused survey specifically for sure.

[Abu]

Okay, next up, a question from Liam regarding the other potential Kwisatz Haderach candidate, Count Fenring. How come Paul awakens his prescience and others do not? End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah, interesting question, Liam. And again, we chose this for a rapid fire because it's pretty quick to get through throughout Frank's books. It is canon that the Atreides, especially after all of The Bene Gesserit breeding and whatever are sensitive to prescience. This is kind of a big theme of Odrade having just kind of an ambient prescience. Exactly. In a spidey sense. The Dune Encyclopedia explains prescience as activity within the Kollik or Kramp, section of the brain that handles space, time, awareness. And Atreides folks, according to the Dune Encyclopedia, have especially well developed KK centers because of the breeding program. And Paul, in particular, might have just had a random genetic chance, has an especially active KK center. But as Liam points out in their broader email, Paul was having prescient dreams as a child on Caladan. So it's not as simple as saying, oh, it's the amount of spice that Paul had.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So the other piece of the answer, I think, is that Paul's upbringing was a perfect storm. Paul was super far along. The breeding plan was basically just one step removed from being the Kwisatz Haderach. Received Mentat training from Thufir Hawat in preparation for inheriting House Atreides, and also Bene Gesserit training from Jessica, in addition to his very curated designer genetics. So that is, I think, the answer to Liam's question. Paul is sort of a perfect storm of the things necessary to be prescient.

[Abu]

Exactly. Yep. And we don't know exactly what Fenring was lacking, but Fenring lacked one of those ingredients, or multiple of those ingredients in the equation, and thus was a failed candidate.

[Leo]

Paul was special. And Jessica suspected he would be. And she was right.

[Abu]

Yeah. Look, we're all special, okay? But Paul was more special.

[Leo]

He was. However special you think you are, Paul was three times more special.

[Abu]

In case you're feeling too good about yourself today.

[Leo]

Yeah, right. After your morning affirmations, you need to look yourself dead in the eyes and tell yourself you're not as special as Paul Atreides.

[Abu]

I'm good. But I'm no Paul Atreides.

[Leo]

I'm no Paul Atreides.

[Abu]

Keep yourself in check.

[Leo]

It's the caveat to all of your morning affirmations. Well, our final quick question is from Xavi Aquino, who writes about Bene Gesserit not knowing their parents. Ladies have all the memories of their previous ladies in their bloodline. So, like, do they block out the memory of their own conception for their safety, or is that a plot hole? There's no way Jessica didn't know that Baron Harkonnen was her uncle, dad, right?

[Abu]

Mm. Good question.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Especially given the more we're learning about the inner workings of the Bene Gesserit. I think this is a fun question to revisit, to dive into it. We know that, for the most part, Bene Gesserit acolytes do not know anything about their families.

[Leo]

Pre awakening specifically. Pre awakening specifically. Right. Yeah.

[Abu]

At the acolyte stage, they're still learning, they're still young, for sure. Pre any sort of spice agony, Reverend Mother awakening, they don't know about their family history. Unless, again, as part of some larger plan they specifically need to know.

[Leo]

Irulan is an example, for instance, that comes to mind. Irulan knows who her mother is, but is also a Bene Gesserit acolyte. Like, she is a Bene Gesserit sister who knows who her mother is because she fucking has to. She's part of the Imperial.

[Abu]

She's the princess, you know. Right. It's like, first of all, very hard to probably keep that secret in the first place. But also, it's probably more beneficial for Irulan to know she is royalty. It probably fits more into Bene Gesserit plans that way.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Now, obviously, Paul goes into his coma and wakes up and realizes and reveals to his mother in the book that we are Harkonnen. We have Harkonnen blood. That's part of our lineage. Your daddy is the Baron himself.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And so once you get to a Reverend Mother stage, once you go through the agony, I think we can safely assume that most Bene Gesserit will have then unlocked some level of memory in regards to their parentage. But I think by the time you get to that part of your training, anything about, like, family and love and your past is pretty irrelevant to you. It's all sisterhood. Sisterhood, Sisterhood.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

It is implied throughout the series that other memories can actually be blocked or self censored if need be. This is super interesting. We actually get an example in Heretics itself. Odrade thinks, quote, and those earlier prohibitions on my other memories, she had found the blank spaces in her memories and opened them, end quote.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Fascinating. The blank spaces almost where things might have been erased or blocked.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

So I think, if need be, the Bene Gesserit, if they really didn't want you to know who your parents were, they could specifically block certain parts of the other memory through whatever technique.

[Leo]

Yeah. And we don't know, to be clear, we don't know when that became possible.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

It is possible that, like Jessica being Beren's daughter is something that they didn't want her to learn, considering she is married to or not married to, but, like, partnered with Duke of House Atreides. Right. Like, maybe that would be something they sealed off. But also, there's examples of self censoring. Right. Like in the Dune Encyclopedia, Ghanima couldn't see her great grandmother, the mother of Jessica, because Paul and Chani's other voices were protecting her from abomination.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

This is something that's introduced with Preborn in Children of Dune, where Chani and Paul act as sort of, like, protective entities within Ghanima's abomination, like horde. And Harum is Leto's sort of, like, abomination guy. But those other voices have agency and say, oh, yeah. I mean, your mother's mother is here, but we're keeping her away from you. You cannot learn about her, because if you do, she might try to take you over, because that's who she is. So there is also that possible explanation from the Dune Encyclopedia.

[Abu]

Yeah, exactly. So to sort of wrap up our answers to this question, if you do take this conundrum of parentage in the context of just the first book. Yeah. I would concede that it's a bit of a plot hole that once Jessica awakens as a Reverend Mother, her not realizing that her dad is Baron Harkonnen is a bit of a plot hole. And it takes until Paul to tell her in the book. I actually think the Villeneuve film handles this better because Jessica does realize it herself and knows it.

[Leo]

Yeah. I didn't know until I awoken.

[Abu]

Yeah. And seemingly intentionally keeps it from Paul or holds onto it for strategic reasons until she needs it. But that, I think, to me, just speaks to the nature of writing a book series of this density and complexity. Frank wasn't gonna have every facet of other memory totally fleshed out when he was writing the first book in what would become a six book series.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And so it's clear that as time went on and as Frank decided that heretics and Chapter House in particular, were going to be more honed in about the Bene Gesserit, he decided to flesh out more of their abilities and their inner workings and maybe just didn't have a clearer idea of how that worked back in the first book.

[Leo]

Yeah. I was going to jump in and just share that. Like, this is one of the most interesting things. And I've seen this talked about by our favorite Redditor, Maxime Diver, the one who's just, like, always the most incredible breakdowns. But Other memory is something that we actually don't get any sense that Jessica has any other memories, to be clear. In fact, when she awakens, if you go back to that first book, she basically only gets Reverend Mother Ramalo's memories and has seemingly none of her own. So there's kind of two possibilities here, and one is hilarious, and I hadn't considered until we were looking at these questions today. One possibility is that by the time of Heretics of Dune, almost everyone in the Bene Gesserit is going to have a familial relationship to Ghanima going back, like, 2,000 years because of Ghanima and Faradin's breeding and their kids and then Leto's breeding of those people. And eventually Siona. And how then Siona is a descendant of Kanyima, and then Siona is, like, ancestor to all of these people as well. The thousand Children, the thousand Sons of Duncan Idaho, et cetera, et cetera. Because so many people these days have some lineage going back to an early Atreides. It's possible there are additional powers by the time of Heretics of Dune within just your average Bene Gesserit person. But another possibility is that Jessica never awoken. Jessica just never was a fully awakened Reverend Mother because she didn't get her fucking other memories. And there is a way to have it pretty consistent with the sole exception of Alia. Alia kind of fucks everything up. But nevertheless, it is interesting to see how other memory changed throughout the books. And it seems like either Jessica didn't really awaken and didn't get her other memories, or she, for whatever reason, just wasn't having access to those things because of self preservation, because of, you know, she also memory dumps with Ramallo. So maybe that took precedent. There's a lot of, like, weird explanations you could get into. I kind of love all of them. But my favorite new headcan is that Jessica synthesized the poison and received all of Ramallo's memories, and then was never a fully awakened Reverend Mother.

[Abu]

That's funny. Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to think back. I don't remember an instance when we're in a Jessica chapter where she's like, oh, yeah, I checked in with so and so in my other memory, and they told me this.

[Leo]

She doesn't.

[Abu]

Certainly not in the way that, like, Leto does it. Right? Like, Leto's constantly jacking into his Apple Vision Pro and going back into his other memories.

[Leo]

It's also, there are moments. I have a couple of quotes here. So this is from Children of Leto is emphasizing the difference between what he has and what Jessica has I must make it clear to you how much we differ. Let me remind you of that sietch orgy so long ago when the old Reverend Mother gave you her lives and her memories, she tuned herself to you and gave you that excerpt, that long chain of sausages, each one a person. You have them yet. So you know something of what Ganima and I experience. End quote. But again, emphasizing Jessica received the old Reverend Mother's lives.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Did not have unlocked other memories in her experience. And again, there's this very clear difference between sharing other memories, like putting the WI FI airdrop that they do in Heretics compared to what we're seeing with Jessica. So, anyway, it's super interesting.

[Abu]

Continues to be elusive and up to many different interpretations. Other memory, I think, is one of the most confusing parts of these books. For sure.

[Leo]

It's true. And we should probably just do an episode on that, and we'll break down what Maxime de Vere talks about, and then we'll also talk about, like, our research, and we'll maybe set that to rest. But for the time being, you can all share my headcanon that Jessica's a fraud. Never awoken.

[Abu]

Very.

[Leo]

They're like, you're a Reverend Mother now. She's like, yeah. Huh.

[Abu]

Totally.

[Leo]

Oh, my other memories are speaking to me.

[Abu]

They're saying, oh, my God, there's a comedy series. There's like a sitcom series to be made here about Jessica faking her other memory for years.

[Leo]

Oh, they're saying that I should eat more ice cream. They're like, you're just hungry. That's not being a Reverend Mother.

[Abu]

That's your stomach bacteria talking.

[Leo]

That's your stomach. Okay.

[Abu]

Not your other memories. So funny. All right, that wraps up today's mailbag episode. Thank you all so much for writing in these wonderful questions that let us nerd out and speculate and throw around our headcanon and really dig into a universe, of course, that is seemingly endless. You know, seemingly. There are so many layers to always pick apart, and more layers reveal themselves. As you said earlier, Leo, as we get further into the books, right, we can revisit ideas that we have already talked about three, four books ago. But now look at them in the context of what we know in Heretics, you know, and of course, later on, once we get into chapter House, we'll probably look at heretics differently. Like, that is part of the magic of these books. As you continue deeper in the things you already read, take on a new light. And that's always so fun to revisit.

[Leo]

Yeah, it absolutely is. I think that's also why I'm so excited to have some of the conversations we've had before again, once we have all six books under our belts. Because I know for sure I missed some details in Chapter House the first time I read it.

[Abu]

For sure.

[Leo]

Well, listeners, we have some homework for you because this is part of the book club. We have another episode coming up. So for the next episode, make sure that you've read chapters 34, 35, and 36, which if your copy differs from ours, ends on the sentence, who knows what he has become by now? End quote. Yeah, probably talking about a Pokemon evolution, I think. Or Digimon. Really? Because Digimon had the wild evolutions, like the I'm a cat and now I'm a human angel woman. It's like, right?

[Abu]

And now I'm a lynx.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

You're like, what, you're back to being a cat? I'm confused.

[Leo]

Back to the cat, huh?

[Abu]

What was the angel human woman part for? Love it, dude. Digimon fucking rules.

[Leo]

I love. This one's the best. I love it so much.

[Abu]

All right, folks, before we let you go, a couple of reminders here. As always, at the end of the episode, the two best ways to support us is to become a patron. @patreon.com gomjabbar you get early access to those book club episodes, you get ad free episodes and other goodies. And you can also check out our merch [e-mail] buy yourself something nice. Wear it, sleep in it, bathe in it.

[Leo]

Yeah, sleep with our pint glass held firmly in your hands.

[Abu]

You do you with the merch that we provide. All of those links are in the show notes below if you want to check those things out.

[Leo]

Indeed. And as always, we love to hear from you. So email [e-mail] Many of your questions today were emails. That's right. And we we'll respond to as many as we can within a year or two. So send us your thoughts, your questions, your cute pets. Let us know about the Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson thing. Have you read the books? Do you want us to talk about it? How do you want us to talk about it? Let us know. Your input makes what we do much easier.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

Anyway, so what messages are you going to leave in the wear marks of your furniture?

[Abu]

I think I'm just going to write down what my other memories have been telling me, you know. Oh, like what things Like I want a pizza.

[Leo]

Oh. Oh my God. My other memories have been saying that a lot recently too.

[Abu]

Maybe it's the same. Maybe it's the same guy. In our other memories, we're a mutual ancestor.

[Leo]

Oh my God. I knew just by looking at us that we must share some heritage. We've got glasses. That's the same.

[Abu]

Yes.

[Leo]

Sweaters. Sweaters.

[Abu]

We're both wearing sweaters.

[Leo]

I have some gray in my beard. You can't really see it very well, but I do.

[Abu]

There you go. From the same ancestor. That pizza lovin ancestor.

[Leo]

The pizza lovin ancestor. Yeah. Lato checks in with his other memory. This pizza. Get more pizza. God damn it. Of all my dollar sliced pizza. I don't know what that means. It's been 6,000 years since Hooperos was around.

[Abu]

Go get dollar slice and spend too much money at Midtown Comics. Damn dude. My other memories are really going ham today.

[Leo]

Really niche, really specific to Manhattan bound lives. Well friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muad'dib and leave us a review in Apple Podcasts and Spotify and be sure to check out the other shows on the Lore Party podcast network on loreparty.com youm can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram Lore underscoreparty. We're also on TikTok Amtra podcast. Thank you so much for listening and remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path.