Minotauros Atreides, The Old Duke

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast

Episode: Minotauros Atreides, The Old Duke
Release Date: April 11, 2025
Hosts: Abu and Leo
Description: Gom Jabbar is the ultimate guide to the Dune universe for both longtime fans and newcomers. Join hosts Abu and Leo as they dive deep into every aspect of Dune lore, from Frank Herbert's original novels to HBO's television show and Denis Villeneuve's blockbuster films. New episodes every other Friday.

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Minotauros Atreides, The Old Duke," hosts Abu and Leo embark on an in-depth exploration of Minotauros Atreides, also known as Mentor, the paternal grandfather of Paul Atreides. Using information from the Dune Encyclopedia and Frank Herbert's original novels, the hosts dissect Mentor's life, leadership, and the lingering mysteries surrounding his character.

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Early Life and Upbringing

Timestamp: [05:23]
Abu and Leo begin by outlining Mentor's early years. Born in 1059 AG to Duke Minos Atreides and Lady Catelyn Calun, Mentor grew up on the island of Naggé, Caladan, primarily under his mother's care. Unlike his father, Mentor was somewhat insulated from the political machinations of House Atreides, enjoying a relatively peaceful upbringing. "He lived a good son of a duke life," Abu notes ([07:38]).

Despite limited details in the Dune Encyclopedia, the hosts infer that Mentor received a top-tier education befitting his noble status. During his teenage years, as described by the gardener Gerasimos "Jerry" Heraclidos ([08:06]–[10:05]), Mentor shifted his interests from gardening to bullfighting, showcasing his single-minded focus and persuasive nature even at a young age.

Notable Quote:

"[The gardener] was like, oh, the Duke's son was taking an interest in what a gardener was doing. And he was serious too, all wrapped up in it." ([09:01] Abu)

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Ascension to Dukedom

Timestamp: [14:31]
Following the untimely death of Mentor's father, Duke Minos, in 10077 AG due to choking on beef jerky ([12:38]–[13:08]), leadership passed to Mentor's older demi-brother, Paulus Atreides. However, when Paulus died in 10116 AG without legitimate heirs, Mentor ascended to become the 45th Sirdar Duke of Caladan and the 266th Head of House Atreides.

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Personal Life and Relationships

Timestamp: [16:21]
Mentor's personal life is marked by his marriage to Louise Rogier, a woman acclaimed for her sharp wit and intelligence. Their union led to a peaceful life on Caladan, though they never had children. Louise's death in 10135 AG left Mentor widowed at the age of 76.

Subsequently, Mentor took a concubine named Becca, with whom he fathered Leto Atreides in 10140 AG. Tragically, Becca died during Leto's birth, leaving Mentor as a single father to his only child. "Leto was honestly a shining beacon in Mentor's life at this point," Leo remarks ([24:29]).

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Leadership and Governance

Timestamp: [23:19]
Mentor's tenure as Duke is lauded in the Dune Encyclopedia as a period of stability and prosperity for House Atreides. His collaboration with Thufir Hawat, a skilled Mentat, played a crucial role in strengthening the house's economic and political standing. "He ruled with great sagacity and integrity for 47 of the most stable, peaceful, prosperous, and expansive years of Atreides history," Abu emphasizes ([26:03]).

Notable Quote:

"Absolute fairness and honesty in all his dealings with Hawat, traits also seen later in Leto, aroused in the Mentat an abiding affection and admiration." ([26:19] Abu)

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Demise in the Bullfighting Ring

Timestamp: [23:38]
Mentor's life came to an unexpected end in 10163 AG at the age of 104, gored by a bull in the very arena he had loved since his youth. This bizarre and public form of death leaves listeners and the hosts pondering the seemingly ironic end of a seasoned bullfighter.

Notable Quote:

"In 10163 AG, at the ripe old age of 104 years old, Minotauros Atreides died in the bullfighting ring, gored by a bull." ([29:17] Abu)

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Discrepancies Between the Dune Encyclopedia and the Novels

Timestamp: [32:06]
A significant portion of the discussion centers on the conflicting portrayals of Mentor Atreides in the Dune Encyclopedia versus Frank Herbert's novels. While the encyclopedia paints Mentor as a fair and effective leader, characters like Thufir Hawat and Lady Jessica hint at darker, more complex traits influenced by Mentor's father, Duke Minos.

Notable Quotes:

1. Thufir Hawat's Reflection:

   "The Duke's father, who'd been brave no matter what his other failings." ([34:08] Abu)

2. Lady Jessica's Critique:

   "The duke is really two men. One of them I love very much. He's charming, witty, considerate, tender... But the other man is cold, callous, demanding, selfish, as harsh and cruel as a winter wind." ([38:15] Abu)

These discrepancies lead Abu and Leo to theorize about possible Bene Gesserit manipulations and historical inaccuracies within the encyclopedia, suggesting that the true nature of Mentor might be more sinister than officially documented.

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Theories on Bene Gesserit Influence

Timestamp: [46:00]
The hosts delve into speculative territory, considering whether Mentor's life and the succession of leadership within House Atreides were orchestrated by the Bene Gesserit. They examine inconsistencies such as the sudden death of Paulus Atreides without securing an heir and the delayed birth of Mentor's son, Leto, questioning whether these events were influenced by Bene Gesserit breeding programs.

Notable Quotes:

"This reeks of Bene Gesserit tampering. Here's why I think Louise... she was too important in his life... maybe the Bene Gesserit had to work around her." ([47:19] Abu)

"Nothing's left to chance. Maybe they're all marching to the beat of the Bene Gesserit at this point." ([50:12] Leo)

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Timestamp: [56:49]
Abu expresses disappointment with the Dune Encyclopedia's portrayal of Mentor, finding it simplistic and lacking depth compared to other entries. However, the debate between Abu and Leo over the potential Bene Gesserit influence enriches the discussion, highlighting the complexities of interpreting in-universe historical documents.

Notable Quote:

"History will always only capture a small fragment of the truth." ([43:28] Leo)

The episode wraps up with the hosts encouraging listeners to engage with their content and ponder the intricacies of Dune's lore, leaving the analysis of Mentor Atreides both open-ended and thought-provoking.

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Notable Highlights

• Mentor's Early Passion: His transition from gardening to bullfighting highlights his focused and persuasive nature.
• Marriage to Louise Rogier: A union marked by mutual respect and intellectual connection, though without offspring.
• Leadership Excellence vs. Personal Flaws: The contrast between the encyclopedia's accolades and the novels' darker character insights.
• Bene Gesserit Conspiracy Theories: Speculations on external influences shaping Mentor's life and House Atreides' lineage.
• Mentor's Untimely Death: The ironic end of a master bullfighter, preserved in emblematic artifacts within the Dune universe.

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Key Quotes with Timestamps

1. Handling Bulls Warning:

   "Don't get killed." – Abu ([00:00])

2. Mentor's Single-Minded Focus:

   "He was serious too, all wrapped up in it." – Abu ([09:01])

3. Leadership Praise:

   "He ruled with great sagacity and integrity..." – Abu ([26:03])

4. Lady Jessica's Dual Perception:

   "The duke is really two men..." – Abu ([38:15])

5. Bene Gesserit Speculation:

   "Nothing's left to chance..." – Leo ([50:12])

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Final Remarks

Abu and Leo successfully navigate the murky waters between canonical texts and supplementary materials like the Dune Encyclopedia, offering listeners a comprehensive and engaging analysis of Minotauros Atreides. Their balanced approach, combining factual breakdowns with speculative theories, provides both clarity and depth, making complex lore accessible and intriguing for all Dune enthusiasts.

Listeners are encouraged to support the podcast through Patreon and merchandise, ensuring the continuation of such detailed and passionate explorations into the Dune universe.

Transcript

[Abu]

Today on the show, dear listener, we're gonna teach you how to handle the bulls. But please, please don't get killed. For the love of God, if we can instill one lesson about the bulls. Don't get killed.

[Leo]

Yeah. If our boss finds out that our listeners got killed handling the bulls while we were in charge, we're gonna be in so much trouble, it's gonna be.

[Abu]

The end of our careers. Okay?

[Leo]

So embarrassing.

[Abu]

All right, stay right here. In charge of you.

[Leo]

Also, chew your beef jerky, please. Listen, please. Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies, and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name is Leo.

[Abu]

And my name is Abu.

[Leo]

Oh. And today on the show, we are talking about the old Duke, not the new one. The new ones, you know, that's all the. All the fad, but we're talking about the old one. Yeah, yeah. We had a different Duke in my day. Now, today's episode, very exciting. We're going to be going into the Dune encyclopedia, but just for a spoiler warning, today, we are going to be touching on some characters, some quotes, some moments from the first Dune book. So we're going to say up top, right here, listener, spoiler warning for the first Dune book.

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

Or if you've seen Denis Villeneuve's films, you're good to go.

[Abu]

That's right. And of course, as always, a huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons, Daniel Dion, Jonathan Lambert, Brad Hutchinson, and Seth Reddin Greer. I'm gonna name my entire bullpen after our Queasatz Haderach pages.

[Leo]

Oh, my gosh. You'll die by one of their horns.

[Abu]

Who will have the honor of killing the dude. Thank you all so much for your support and for giving me great ideas for naming my bulls. I don't know when or how I inherited these bulls, but now I have names for them. Our thank yous, of course, extend to all of our patrons at every level who make this show possible. You truly build the foundation upon which this show runs. And if I happen to inherit more bulls, I'll keep naming them after more patrons.

[Leo]

I was going to say, do we have to officially add that as a bullet point of, like, may get to kill the Duke? That's Haderac level patron. You have a shot. You got it. You got a chance, you know? And of course, listeners, if you are not able right now, to be a monthly supporter on Patreon, we do have a link in the show, not one time tip to help keep the lights on. Literally, the light next to me is flickering because it's been a few minutes. Unrelated. So let's talk about today's episode. What's it going to look like?

[Abu]

Well, as usual with these character deep dives, we're going to start today by talking about Minotaurus Atreides earliest years, his young life, his childhood, his teenage years, what he was like, and who the young duke was before he became the old Duke, I guess.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Then we will talk about his ascendancy to becoming the Duke, because, fun fact, he wasn't actually first in line. We'll also talk about his rule and his close relationship with Dufir Hawat, a name we all know and love.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Finally, we will wrap up today's conversation by kind of breaking down the confusing lore discrepancies throughout the Dune Encyclopedia when it comes to the old duke.

[Leo]

Sure.

[Abu]

And the book itself.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And there's some interesting theorizing to be done there.

[Leo]

Yeah. I also realized, I don't think we've said yet in the episode, the old duke is Leto Atreides, his father, and Leto Atreides is the father of Paul Atreides. So we meet Paul and Dune. This is Paul's paternal grandfather, and that's who we're talking about. We said the old dude. We're too lost in the Sasebu. We're like neck deep in lore stuff. We say, oh, the old duke. We all know who we're talking about.

[Abu]

We assume you all know what we're talking about, right? No. Minotaurus Atreides, Paul's grandfather, Leto's father. That's who we're talking about. Today. We're going to be covering his entire life according to the Encyclopedia.

[Leo]

Indeed.

[Abu]

All right, before we dive in, Leo, let's take a quick break. Let's prep ourselves. We'll be right back after a short break.

[Leo]

Lowe's knows how to help pros save. That's why the new Milo's Pro Rewards program lets you unlock exclusive member deals on the things you need every day on the job. Plus, Milo's Pro Rewards members can get volume discounts on eligible orders through a quote of $2,000 or more. Join for free today Lowe's we help you save Exclusions. More terms and restrictions apply. Program subject to terms, conditions, details@lowe's.com terms subject to change. Welcome back, everybody. Hope you're ready to step into the bullring because we're going to talk about Minotaurus Atreides.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Minotaurus Atreides, early life. Let's get into it. He was born in the year 1059 AG to Duke Minos Atreides, the Duke of House Atreides and his concubine, Lady Catelyn Calun. These are his parents.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

Lady Catelyn and Minos Atreides. Now, Mentor was not an only child. He had six brothers and sisters by different mothers and one older demi brother, the heir presumptive, Paulus Atreides. So he has an older brother who's got the kind of like you're the heir presumptive, basically, Paulus Atreides.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

Now, even though he is the son of the Duke of House Atreides and he was born in the old palace, Mentor was raised by his mother primarily in her homestead on the island of. I'm going to say Nagi. N A G G E. Nag, Nag, Najee, Najee, Citre nage. It's N A G G E. It's a little. It's a small island on the eastern continent of Caladan.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

And this is where he was brought up. Now, the Dune Encyclopedia is super scarce on details about his childhood, but the vibe that we get from the kind of like here and there sentences is that it was pretty chill. He wasn't like wrapped up in the hustle and bustle of his father's work. He was fairly removed and insulated from it. But still, given the quality upbringing that you can expect if you're like the son of the duke.

[Abu]

Absolutely.

[Leo]

Like top tier education, good upbringing, you know, that sort of thing.

[Abu]

That's right. There's a throwaway sentence, for example, in the encyclopedia that mentioned his mother's palace on Naje. So, you know, this is. No, I was raised in my mother's cottage and. Yeah, dusty shack, like worked with the chickens in the farmstead the whole time or something. No, he. He lived a good son of a duke life.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Now, fast forwarding a couple of years, we do get a few details about Mentor's teenage years, specifically from the gardener of said palace on the island. This gardener's name is very Greek. I apologize to all of our Greek listeners. I'm about to absolutely butcher this. His name was Gerasimos Heraclidos, something like that. Yeah, I'm gonna call him Jerry from now on.

[Leo]

Jerry. I was like, oh, you don't need to apologize to the Greeks for that. And O. Oh, you're calling him Jerry. Okay. Yeah. That's fair. Yeah. We apologize.

[Abu]

Truly. Now, Hirosimos is a very interesting source because the way it's positioned in the Dune Encyclopedia is that these details we get about Minotaurus teenage years came from quote, an oral history project of the Tradies school on Kaladin. End quote.

[Leo]

Oh, that's fun.

[Abu]

That's kind of cute. You know that?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Clearly like Hirasimos was like the source for some kid at school who wanted to write a research paper on the Duke.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And he got these quotes from the gardener. And they have now forever been immortalized in history.

[Leo]

That's so funny. That's cool.

[Abu]

So here's what we learned about teenage Minotaurus. Were told that when he was around 17, 18 ish years old, he actually started asking Horasimos questions about his gardening. The gardener says, for example, here was the Duke's son taking an interest in what a gardener was doing. And he was serious too, all wrapped up in it. End quote.

[Leo]

Interesting.

[Abu]

Horasimo was quite flattered that the Duke's son would take an interest in his quote unquote lowly profession of being a gardener.

[Leo]

Yeah. And Mentor throughout this. I get the impression Mentor is the sort of like single minded. He's very like focused. When he's focused on something, he gets like very wrapped up in it. But this is kind of, maybe even our first inclination that this is a character trait of Mentor Atreides.

[Abu]

Completely. Hiasmos continues in this report explaining how soon after being extremely interested in gardening, Minotauros moved on Fuck gardening. And was distracted by Hirosimos friend, actually, whose name is Seraphim Hippodos. And Seraphim was the master of horses. And he also owned some bulls. And thus young teenage Minotaurus interests moved on from gardening and he then became obsessed with horses. He became an excellent writer. And along the way he was also taught how to handle the bulls, much to Seraphim's distress. Actually Seraphim really didn't want the young Duke's son around these dangerous creatures. But as you stated, he seems to be quite single minded, quite focused. And it turns out he was quite persuasive as a teenager as well. So eventually Seraphim relented and introduced young Mentor to the thrills of the bullring. To which Mentor became forever devoted. End quote. Hopefully nothing goes wrong there.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, hopefully Foreshadowing. Nothing happens foreshadowing in the future. Foreshadowing.

[Abu]

And by the way, we're using Mentor as a nickname and the encyclopedia does as well. That's interchangeable. Minotauros, Mentor, old Duke, all the same.

[Leo]

Guy, all the same. Exactly. That's a great call out. I also. My headcanon here is mentor had a similar experience to gardening that I did where I was like, oh, my God. Living things that I can cultivate and grow in my space. And this is wonderful. And then you buy some plants and then immediately kill them because you don't know how to water things. And it's you over water some things and you underwater. And then you go, fuck this. This sucks. I hate that. Move on. I cannot own. Do you own plants?

[Abu]

Do you have plants? I don't. I don't have the patience. I probably would have the discipline to water them and take care of them and stuff, but I just don't have the patience. I'm like, bro, this is taking too long. Why aren't there any flowers or whatever? I planted this four days ago.

[Leo]

Yeah, I think I'm sold on like, vegetable patches, but yeah, yeah, the house plans me and Mentor me. It sounds like all three of us. You, me, and Mentor. Not a fan of gardening. Sorry, Jerry. Well, anyway, less than two years later, so he's been introduced to bull fighting. A mentor's father, Duke Minos, quote, died suddenly. Oh, no. Choking on a piece of beef. End quote.

[Abu]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

That is perhaps the most embarrassing way to die. Embarrassing for my guy in this galaxy that has, like, plans within plans. We got people getting assassinated, we've got interstellar travel, all these flashy ways to be taken out. And it's like, guy didn't chew his beef jerky enough. Just too enthusiastic about his Slim Jim. He snapped too hard into his Slim Jim and didn't live to tell the tale.

[Abu]

Be careful, folks. Eating your pieces of beef out there. You never know.

[Leo]

Yeah. The Grim Reaper waits for us all. So this happens in 10077ag. And as basically was the plan, his older demi brother, Mentors older demi brother Paulus took the title of Duke. Right. He's the heir presumptive. And he became the head of House Atreides. And, you know, he's young, he's energetic, he's popular. He's probably going to have a bunch of kids. He's got that lineage is set right. So Mentors looking at his older than my brother, going, all right, sick. I don't have to worry about that mantle. I'm never going to have to take over House Atreides. That's cool. Hey, Paulus. Hey, older brother. Can I go off and basically gallivant around the universe, quote, as a roving ambassador, and which feels like such bureaucratic bullshit. It's like, I'm gonna go represent the House. And you're like, in. At Gamont. What business does House Atreides have on the hedonistic sex planet? And you're like, oh, a lot of business. Don't Trust me, older brother, don't get it twisted. A ton of business on Gammat. So Paulus is like, yeah, go for it. Why not? Oh, yeah, have fun.

[Abu]

He signs off on it.

[Leo]

Yeah. So Mentor sets off on his big adventure. Meanwhile, Paulus is ruling House Atreides.

[Abu]

That's right. And you know what? That's what the next decade of Mentor's life looks like. He's bouncing around the Imperium. He is a quote unquote, roving ambassador, People rolling their eyes behind his back, but he gets to do whatever he wants because he's a rich kid. He's learning actually a ton from a bunch of academies that he's bouncing around at. For example, we're told he learns all about weapons shields, self defense. He gets a general education in politics. And to continue the heavy foreshadowing, he also continues to learn and participate in bullfighting. Nothing goes wrong.

[Leo]

What's the worst that could happen?

[Abu]

You know, we get a really great description, actually from one of Mentor's peers during these years of his life, during this 10 years of his young life. He was tall, not quite handsome, a bit of a rake. I remember that he had a very queer sense of humor. He would laugh at things that none of the rest of us thought were funny and would scarcely crack his lips at a side splitter. Still, we all wanted him at our parties. He was a good conversationalist and all the women loved him. End quote.

[Leo]

I think Hozier would say he's the giggle at the funeral, I think is what Hozier would say about that.

[Abu]

Yeah. Honestly, he sounds like. That sounds like a pretty apt description of an Atreides male to me.

[Leo]

Yeah. Very in line with those that we have met, for sure.

[Abu]

Yeah. And during his adventures around the Imperium here, this is where the first would argue most, perhaps most significant event in his life happens. He meets a girl named Louise.

[Leo]

Oh, Louise. Well, let's talk about her. Let's talk about this woman he met, Lovisa Louise Rogier is by all accounts someone. This woman who is too smart for her own good. She's got this whip. Crack wit, I think is saying is an idiom. And if it isn't she's not out here chewing on shoelaces. It is now. You know, she has the sort of wit, says the Dune Encyclopedia, that quote, makes even a beautiful woman somehow undesirable to most men. End quote. To which I say, fuck most men.

[Abu]

Interesting, painful reminder that this encyclopedia was written in the 80s.

[Leo]

I know, but also, I think it's like, an indictment of how insecure men can be. Oh, certainly the authors are calling out guys just like, oh, you don't like women who are witty? Okay, all right. Well, the Dune Encyclopedia has more to say about Louise. Describes her as short and plain. Little harsh, but that's fine. And the bastard daughter of a duke. So no title, no, you know, a huge political career on the horizon. But Mentor, clearly a man of discerning tastes, Quote, was captivated by her wit and abruptly gave up the joy of sampling phillies for a quieter life.

[Abu]

Nice.

[Leo]

End quote.

[Abu]

She fixed him.

[Leo]

She fixed. She can fix him. I had never heard the term sampling Phillies as like, a euphemism for just fucking fucking around, but apparently that's a thing now. Luis and Mentor actually so fell for one another. They got wed, they got married, and returned to Caladan. They were like, quiet life, let's settle down. And they built a house near his old home near Naje Nagi, whatever, the fucking island. Now, they never had children, and Luis passed away sadly in 10,135. So for those at home keeping track, Mentor is 76 years old at this point when Luis passes away.

[Abu]

So they spent, like, a pretty beautiful, what, 30, 40 years together?

[Leo]

Yeah, something like that. Really. Seems like they spent quite a bit of time together. And the Dune Encyclopedia does not tell us how Luis died, which is, you know, unfortunate. I always want more details than we're given.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

Also does not talk about how her passing affected him. But I want to come in here with some headcanon. I will say he's 76. We're gonna see that he takes another concubine, another woman. He does not, according to the Dune Encyclopedia's historical record, he does not take another wife. And my headcanon, Leo's headcanon here is that this is a quiet sign of how singular she was in his life.

[Abu]

I completely agree.

[Leo]

For whatever reasons, Luis was special, and he never again took another wife. Indeed.

[Abu]

Yeah. That short, plain queen.

[Leo]

Short. As I aspire to be like Louise when I grow up. Short, plain, with a wit that makes even I somehow undesirable to most men goals, I think Louise completely.

[Abu]

Now, setting his personal life aside, there's also a dramatic change in his professional life during all of this. Yeah, because mentor's brother, remember him, Duke Paulos, he suddenly dies and succumbs to what we're told is a, quote, lingering ailment, end quote.

[Leo]

I mean. Yeah, okay, okay.

[Abu]

No more details on that. We're also told that during his entire reign, Paulos fathered no legitimate heirs. He just had a bunch of illegitimate bastards via concubines and lovers.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

But there was no legitimate heir to take the throne after him. And so when he died in 10116, the responsibility and the title of Duke passed on to our guy, Minotauros Atreides.

[Leo]

Interesting.

[Abu]

Now, for folks at home doing the math, Paulos dies 19 years before Louise does. Yeah, but the encyclopedia is a bit unclear about the timeline and how that affected their relationship. Right, because it tells us they built a home on the island of Najer and lived a quiet life. Does this mean that when his older brother died and he became the Duke, did they move back to the capital for those last 19 years of her life? Did he just rule from Najee? A little bit unclear what happened there. Kind of fill in the gaps with whatever works for you, dear listener.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Whatever that order of events was, though, with Palos's death, Minotaurus Atreides officially becomes the 45th Sirdar Duke of Caladin and the 266th Head of House Atreides. My guy's got responsibilities now. No more gallivanting.

[Leo]

No more Phillies. Stop sampling them. Stop sampling those horses. All right, well, we are going to talk about his dukedom and his death after a quick break, so don't go anywhere. Dear listener, when we're back, we're talking about the bull ring again. You'll never guess what's going to happen.

[Abu]

You'll never believe it.

[Leo]

Never believe it came out of nowhere. No one saw it coming.

[Abu]

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[Leo]

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[Abu]

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[Leo]

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[Abu]

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[Leo]

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[Abu]

Welcome back, folks. Let's talk about Duke Minotaurus Atreides, what his rule was like, and his ultimate demise.

[Leo]

Spoiler warning. There might be some bullring shenanigans involved. I know, I know. Comes out of nowhere. Really catches me off guard, doesn't it? No foreshadowing. Father killed by beef jerky.

[Abu]

Older brother foreshadowing at all.

[Leo]

Ailment probably cow related, you know?

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

That's what we're dealing with.

[Abu]

This guy's been haunted by fucking cows his entire life.

[Leo]

Cows are the number one killer of House Atreides.

[Abu]

All right, let's talk about Duke Minotaurus Atreides. So again, in 1016 AG, Mentor becomes the Duke. 19 years later, Louise passes. During that time, though, they don't have any children, which leaves Mentor in the same position as his older brother, childless and without an heir, which is a huge problem. And perhaps for that very reason, Mentor did take on a concubine after Luis's death named Becca. And together they had only one child, a son born in 10140 AG named Leto Atreides.

[Leo]

Hey. Heard of him? Hell, yeah.

[Abu]

Tragically, Mentor seems to. Gosh, this guy just maybe doesn't have the best of luck with his love life because Becca dies during the delivery of Leto traities. So just Leto and his father from there on out.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Nevertheless, Leto was honestly a shining beacon in Mentor's life at this point. We're told that Leto was, quote, Mentor's greatest source of joy in the last decades of his long life. End quote. Which is kind of beautiful.

[Leo]

Yeah, that's really sweet.

[Abu]

Hold that thought, though. Hold that. Very sweet thought. We're going to get into it at the end of the episode because there's very few details about Mentor as a father figure.

[Leo]

And.

[Abu]

There'S actually some details in the first book that maybe contradict him being the most loving, caring father. We'll talk about it.

[Leo]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll look into that a little bit in a takeaway within a character deep dive, well away from his personal life. Let's talk about his leadership of House Atreides, how he's doing as a Duke and by most metrics seems to be pretty top tier. Yeah, really killing it. Doing. Doing a good job. The Dune Encyclopedia says he, quote, ruled with a great sagicity and integrity for 47 of the most stable, peaceful, prosperous, and expansive years of Atradian history.

[Abu]

Wow.

[Leo]

End quote.

[Abu]

Hell, yeah.

[Leo]

Killing it. That sounds amazing. Good job, dude. Of course, no Duke is out here doing everything himself. Part of this is due to the talent he's got available to him, including none other than Thufir Hawat.

[Abu]

Hello.

[Leo]

A Mentat. We meet, of course, in Dune. And according to the Dune Encyclopedia, Thu Fear joins house Atreides in 10110 AG. Now, this is where we get to have the first piece of this conversation, which is that these dates don't line up. Basically, the Dune Encyclopedia's dates, especially when you're comparing disparate entries, can be a little bit murky. So, dear listener, I give you the option. You can choose your headcanon. The Dune Encyclopedia is an in universe document, so if there are mistakes, it could be due to differing accounts. People say, Thufir joined us in 10110AG. Other people say, no, no, no, you're an idiot. He joined us six years later or whatever. Right. That is possible. The other possibility is, yeah, the Dune Encyclopedia was compiled by, like, 43 authors, and they just didn't have comprehensive tool like word search or anything like that. So in the 80s, there are some misprints and some mistakes. Yeah, up to you what you want to believe.

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

Now, Mentor, regardless of how Thufir made his way to House Atreides and when Mentor relied very, very heavily on Thufir's talents.

[Abu]

Right?

[Leo]

And Mentor had some ambitious plans for House Atreides and for Caladan as a. As a planet, as their fief.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

And by all accounts, he was a pretty good boss for Thufir, according to the Dune Encyclopedia. More on that later. Here's an excerpt. Quote, absolute fairness and honesty in all his dealings with Hawat, traits also seen later in Leto, aroused in the Mentat an abiding affection and admiration. End quote. All right, seems, you know, great. Again, more on that later. And they together basically made House Atreides the impressive, great house that we encounter in Dune. I don't get the impression that House Atreides, by the way, was like a cowering small power before Mentor took over. But with Mentor and Thufir, it's very clear that they made House Atreides much More of an economic power than they. Than it was before Mentor took over.

[Abu]

Totally. Mentor came in green, new deal, all that stuff, and he fully upgraded. Kaladin brought her up to another tax bracket.

[Leo]

New bull ring. What's the worst that could happen, you know? Right?

[Abu]

What's the worst of the new one? Don't worry about it. Well, unfortunately, all good things must come to an end.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And Mentor's reign is no different. In 10163ag, at the ripe old age of 104 years old, Minotaurus Atreides died in the bullfighting ring. Gored by a bull. Who could have predicted this?

[Leo]

No. What? No, there's no way. Mentor, the bullfighter killed by a bull. What?

[Abu]

The braggadocious bullfighter, the one who's been.

[Leo]

Obsessed with it since he was a child, died doing the thing with the dangerous animals. No.

[Abu]

Alas, there you go. From his teenage years to his seraphim punching his grave. He's like, yeah, that's right.

[Leo]

Fuck, I knew it. Right?

[Abu]

I hope seraphim is, like, dead by now. Or I hope he put a bunch of money down on exactly this happening, because then he's rich.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

In Dune, actually, in the first Dune book, Jessica explains that the bull's head, the very same bull that killed Mentor, has been kept by House Atreides ever since. His blood is actually still visible on the horns of this head because, quote, they were sprayed with a transparent fixative within hours after this beast killed the old duke. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah. Shout out. Mapes is, like, freaked out by it. She's like, what's all this old dirt? And Jessica's like, oh, that's the blood of Leto's father. She's, like, sick.

[Abu]

He preserved it. Don't worry about it.

[Leo]

Cool family.

[Abu]

And actually, if folks are wondering what happened to the bull, though, if the bull killed Minotaurus, who killed the bull, you know?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

It actually lived a great life. Retired on a great pension.

[Leo]

And still alive today.

[Abu]

Still alive today. No. Leto, dear, dear. Leto Atreides, who we know and love, killed the bull himself. Quote, leto killed the bull using his father's istoki, thus linking his power with that of his ancestors. He never entered the carida again. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah. Cool. I hadn't heard that word before, Estuki, but I guess it's like a bullfighter sword. And the korida is the arena, so.

[Abu]

Correct. Yep.

[Leo]

Fun to see some of these terms used.

[Abu]

Yep. And good on Leto for avenging his papa.

[Leo]

His papa. Yeah. Well, let's now talk. We've kind of hinted that things may not be exactly what they seem throughout this episode. So let's. Before we wrap up this conversation about Mentor, who's now dead, Leto has taken his son, has taken the dukedom in his. I think it's like his early 20s. I think he's like 23, something like that. Something was nagging us as we were kind of doing our research and writing up this episode. And this is in sort of a dissonance between the tone of this Dune Encyclopedia entry and the things that we actually read in Dune. Frank does have characters in the first book reflect back on the old Duke.

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

And it's never like, oh, yeah, loved that guy. He's the best. It's always kind of dark and feels, like, ominous. So we wanted to maybe look at why the Dune Encyclopedia. Why is it so complementary of Mentor Atreides? You know, the gardener even said about Mentor, quote, this Duke's son was one of a kind. End quote. And we hear that. We go complimentary. Maybe. Maybe Jerry was going, fuck this kid. This kid sucks. One of a kind. Gave up gardening faster than I've ever seen. Kills all of my plants. It's crazy.

[Abu]

Could never remember to water them.

[Leo]

Could never remember to water. Has the discipline. Doesn't have the patience. This kid, Mentor. So in contrast to that. Right. In Dune, we get these characters kind of thinking back on him, and his presence is the shadow. So we've kind of gathered some quotes for some consideration, and we want to take a step back and maybe look at who the old Duke, who this Minotaurus Atreides may have actually been interpersonally, according to the characters we've met, know, and in some cases, love.

[Abu]

So let's start with Thufir Hawat, who we know worked closely with Minotaurus early on in his career with the Atreides, and we're told in the encyclopedia built a really great working relationship and potentially even a friendship with the old Duke. So there are two entries in the first book that are worth considering here. The first is when Thufir and Jessica are having that tense standoff and. And Thufir thinks back in this moment to Minotaurus. He was reminded of the bullring and of the Duke's father, who'd been brave no matter what his other failings. And one day of the Carida, long ago, the fierce black beast had stood there, head bowed, immobilized and confused. The old Duke had turned his back on the horn's cape, thrown flamboyantly over one arm, while cheers rained down from the Stands.

[Leo]

End quote. Fascinating.

[Abu]

Now, obviously, the most important part of that quote is the Duke's father who'd been brave no matter what his other failings. Yeah, that rings a bit more ominous than what we've been told in the encyclopedia. The encyclopedia tells us Thufir and Mentor had a happy, go lucky, amazing working relationship where they turned around the economy of Kaladin. What are these failings, then, that Thufir is thinking back on? Interesting to consider.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

There's also a second moment later on in the book after Paul has slaughtered his way through the Sardaukar to stand now as the Emperor of the Universe, he's crushed all opposition. He shares a final moment with Hawat. Paul says, quote, am I my father's son? And Hawat responds, quote, more like your grandfather's. You've his manner and the look of him in your eyes. End quote.

[Leo]

Interesting. And this is specifically after Paul has, like, slaughtered his way to controlling the universe, basically, at the end of the book. This hardened killer Atreides.

[Abu]

Yeah, exactly.

[Leo]

Doing things perhaps the way that Leto Atreides would not have done, Paul's father.

[Abu]

Would not have done. Right. It's not a complimentary. This doesn't read as complimentary for Hawat to say you've the manner of your grandfather in your eyes. This is him saying, like, you're more like your grandfather right now than your father, who we all know and love.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Which, again, a weird thing for Thufir to say if he had such a great relationship with minotaurs for decades.

[Leo]

Yeah. There's also this moment, Gurney Halleck, who, when he sees that Paul has survived among the Fremen for years, makes this observation about young pup Paul Atreides.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Quote, a smile touched Paul's mouth, but there was a hardness in the expression that reminded Gurney of the old Duke Paul's grandfather. End quote. So, again, this sort of like, I kind of expected the soft, amicable Leto Atreides. And now I'm seeing, in fact, actually your paternal grandfather. I'm seeing this kind of hardness, this, this harshness that is coming out of Paul from his years with the Fremen. Now, as a. As a side note, Gurney was a Harkonnen slave, according to the dune encyclopedia, until 10,000, 165. And he likely joined House Atreides in the years immediately following Minotaurus death. So, again, we have a couple of possibilities. One is that he knows Mentor very well through association. He joined the House just a couple of years after Mentor died, kind of posthumously. He has a secondhand reputation. Oh, he was a real hard ass. Okay. I'm seeing a little bit of that in Paul now.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

It's also totally possible that the dates in the Dune encyclopedias always are inaccurate or. Or approximate. And perhaps Leto saved Gurney from the slave pits a few years before Mentor died, and this was like something that his son was doing, you know? So there's a few possibilities here.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

It does sound like Gurney met the old duke based on his verbiage.

[Abu]

Right, right. The wording here. There was a hardness in his expression that reminded Gurney of the old duke.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

I don't know that you have that thought about someone unless you have seen the old duke's expression as well. You know, like, even if you had heard about the old duke, it's like, yeah, you're making the same face as a guy I've never seen before. Doesn't really make sense.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So this. This feels like an encyclopedia. Date, discrepancy and error.

[Leo]

Yeah. Or you'd say, like, the paintings he'd seen of the old duke or something like that. If he met it.

[Abu]

If he. Right. If it was secondhand. Right.

[Leo]

I think, realistically, Frank didn't think too much about it, because Frank also plays very.

[Abu]

We're thinking way too much.

[Leo]

It's fine.

[Abu]

Exactly. Okay, we have one more quote for you from the book. This one. Oh, boy. This one is the most damning quote about the old duke.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And it comes from our girl, Lady Jessica herself.

[Leo]

Never heard of her.

[Abu]

Early in the book.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

She's describing Leto, and she thinks, quote, the duke is really two men. One of them I love very much. He's charming, witty, considerate, tender. Everything a woman could desire. But the other man is cold, callous, demanding, selfish, as harsh and cruel as a winter wind. That's the man shaped by the father. If only that old man had died when my duke was born. End quote.

[Leo]

Oh, so brutal. That's so brutal.

[Abu]

That is incredibly brutal. Especially when you consider the details we've laid out in today's episode. The fact that Leto's mother died in childbirth. For Jessica to then think, damn, if only his father had also died. If only my dearest love, Leto Atreides, had been an orphan, things would have been better.

[Leo]

Life would be so much easier if he'd just been an orphan.

[Abu]

Yeah. It's like, wow, this is a blatantly tough look for our guy. Minotaurus Atreides.

[Leo]

Not a good sign.

[Abu]

No, not a good sign. As far as Jessica is concerned, Maybe that he wasn't the best dad Cold, callous, demanding, selfish. Those are not great qualities. And also qualities that are never mentioned in the Dune encyclopedia entry and never even hinted at. You know, even the verbiage and the tone of the entry does not hint at Minotaurus faults in this way.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Now, there's another date discrepancy here that just for posterity we need to call out. We dug into our archives and found our Lady Jessica episode from a while back. And by our estimation. Doing a little bit of math here.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Seemingly, Jessica was brought to leto around 10,175 AG.

[Leo]

Right. Yeah.

[Abu]

Which, again, would make it so that she didn't even come into House Atreides until a decade after we're told Mentor was dead. Because, again, we're told mentor died in 10,163.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

So, again, this is kind of another Gurney situation. Did Jessica actually know the old duke and meet him, or is her impression of him built posthumously? You know, this is what was spoken of the duke within the household after he died.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

We're unsure. The dates here seem to be misaligned.

[Leo]

Again, I will say this one more so than Gurney, because, Gurney, you're absolutely right. Like, the verbiage of, like, oh, that expression on your face reminds me of that person. Like, that feels very firsthand. You know, she is talking about these qualities, these character qualities. And I don't doubt that the Bene Gesserit had a very, very clear picture of who Mentor Atreides was.

[Abu]

Oh, yeah.

[Leo]

So Jessica as a Bene Gesserit sister, I think this one, I feel a little bit easier saying this is something that the Bene Gesserit were aware of. And some of Jessica's bitterness is just how that father. That father figure affected Leto's life. Again, better if he had been killed and dead in the first place. The viscerality doesn't come from firsthand experience. It comes more from the effect it's had on Leto over these years. You know?

[Abu]

Yeah. I agree. This feels more emotional. Right. This seems to be deeply seated in her love of Leto. So perhaps she's, you know, projecting some of his faults on the father that she may have only heard things about.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Over the years.

[Leo]

Well, stepping back, then, what's the deal? Right.

[Abu]

Right. We've painted two very different pictures of Minotaurus Atreides.

[Leo]

Yeah. This guy who. Man, it would have been better if he died. Like. Yeah. He was super fair and great and one of the best leaders at House Atreides ever had. Well, stepping back, there's these two things to Address, right? There's these sort of broad tonal discrepancies, and then there's also these kind of individual little, like, date discrepancies. Considering the Dune Encyclopedia as an in universe document, right? The whole point of the Dune Encyclopedia is this is composed by people inside of the universe based on information that's available in the universe. The difference between the official histories and the perspectives of people who knew him can be kind of rationalized in a couple of different ways, right? Now, first, it is possible that the official history, right, what is represented in the Dune Encyclopedia as this thing that is. This is thousands of years of human history that it has been cleaned up intentionally, right? The Dune Encyclopedia was written thousands of years after Paul Atreides, after the events of Dune, and in fact, after the events of, like, the first few Dune books. And a lot of these early, early details are as much legend as they are like, absolute documented facts. And I can't help but think about, like, yeah, how much do we know about the life of Jesus of Nazareth, right? This, like, hugely important. You know, I was even hearing an early biblical scholar talking the other day about carpenter might be a weird translation considering the area Nazareth didn't really have wood. So it's like, oh, yeah, it might not even be a carpenter. It might just be like, oh, yeah. That's kind of an easy way to think about it. More likely, he was working in any kind of material needed. So anyway, just as an aside, documented fact over thousands of years gets murky. So that's one possibility.

[Abu]

Absolutely.

[Leo]

It's also possible that despite people's misgivings, right, like the gardener who's being interviewed by some kid for a school report isn't going to go, hey, kid, let me tell you the real fact that.

[Abu]

Start filling the teeth.

[Leo]

Start. This guy fucking sucked. Are you kidding me? Wait, write that down. Write down that fucking suck.

[Abu]

F. Kid.

[Leo]

Yeah. C.K. yeah.

[Abu]

You know how to spell it, kid?

[Leo]

Okay, I'll spell it for you. Here, give me the pen. I'll write it. Yeah, I'll just write your book report.

[Abu]

Get out of here.

[Leo]

So bad he's. I hated him. So it is possible, right, that despite people's misgivings, or they're like, man, he's cold and harsh, they're looking at his results and how he's doing as a leader, and they're going, well, do I want to be the one to go on record and say this guy sucked? Like, maybe not. And ultimately, then we see that history will always only capture a small fragment of the truth. Which is a very Frank Herbert, very dune thing to consider.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Or perhaps. And this is where the Bene Gesserit get a little bit involved. It's possible that the Bene Gesserit were also interested in shaping and guiding the storytelling of the species. It's possible that some of this is a little bit deliberate. This also got me thinking about just Bene Gesserit involvement in general. Do you think Becca, Right. Do you think the concubine by which mentor had Leto.

[Abu]

Had Leto, Right.

[Leo]

She had to be Bene Gesserit. Right.

[Abu]

Who? Gosh. I mean, when the puzzle pieces fit. Because the fact that he did have a love of his life for a majority of his life, had no children by her.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And then had the one and only heir to House Atreides via an obscure rando lady named Becca that came into his life.

[Leo]

Dude, do you think Louise was Bene Gesserit?

[Abu]

Oh, God, that's horrible to think. I don't. I don't want to believe that. I want to believe in love, but it's fucking possible.

[Leo]

Well, I mean, listen, love is love. Love is love, dude. But still, that's such a Bene Gesserit move to say, you're going to intoxicate this man and you're gonna love him and you're gonna spend your life with him and keep him from having kids. Just direct him away from that. He's gonna get the dukedom while you're together. Just keep it up. That's your station. And then you pass away. And then shortly after, another woman appears and you have a child. And then you find out that all of this is leading up to Paul. All of this is the breeding program. Tens of thousands of years of planning, and it's like, oh, shit.

[Abu]

And I would argue, like some listeners might be like, well, we're getting too tinfoil y had here. I disagree. We're talking about Paul Atreides, the Kwisatz Haderach. The final step in the Bene Gesserit plans before the 10,000 year goal is achieved.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

I think anything leading up to Paul, especially so close generationally.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Is being, like, watched like a hawk by the Benny.

[Leo]

They're not leaving this shit to chance. They're not. Like, we'll see how it shakes out.

[Abu]

Right? Hopefully one of the brothers D. Hopefully Minotaurus. No, no, no. You know, like, it's also extremely suspicious that Paulos never sired legitimate heirs during his multi decade rule of Paul of House Atreides. And then he just randomly dies, opening the way for Minotaurus to come in. You know, like, there's a lot of suspicious behavior here. It legitimately makes no sense for a ruler to not immediately try to create heirs right away, you know?

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

That's like the. One of the most important thing a ruler does.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

In this hierarchical society. So for him to go like, what, 20, 30 years without having a legitimate kid makes absolutely no sense and reeks of Bene Gesserit tampering. Here's my thing, though.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Here's why I think Louise. Besides my extreme bias and wanting to believe in love, here's why I don't think Louise is Bene Gesserit.

[Leo]

Okay.

[Abu]

If she were, why not just get once Minotaurus is Duke. Why not, at that point, just give him a legitimate son?

[Leo]

She has the wrong genetics.

[Abu]

Why introduce Becca and a whole nother woman and this other factor.

[Leo]

Wrong genetics.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Like, Becca must have had genetic markers or traits that.

[Abu]

Yeah, you know, that's true. There. There. There is a long 19 year, unexplained gap, though, before Becca. Before Luis dies. And then I just. Becca eventually comes in. I mean, certainly I think it's a valid theory. I just personally don't want to believe it. You know, I want to believe Luis was. Was like a true love, that perhaps the Bene Gesserit had to actually work around. Maybe Louise was that X factor where they were like, damn, we really need Minotaurs to have a fucking kid. But he's not gonna be with any other woman because there's ladies here that he loves so much. And perhaps they had to wait for Louise to die or something.

[Leo]

It's so funny. I just want to let the listeners in on this. I had written in the script that maybe Becca was Bene Gesserit. This idea that Luis was also. Maybe Bene Gesserit is like, happening in the moment. We are fully off script.

[Abu]

We're working through this real time.

[Leo]

But I kind of love it because we also see in other moments in the Dune universe, we see this idea of the Bene Gesserit keeping assets in holding, in holding patterns. Like, hey, we're going to have this family isolated over there until we need them and until it's the right time to bring them into play. You know, chess pieces and all that.

[Abu]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Leo]

So I think that either is possible.

[Abu]

Totally true.

[Leo]

It is certainly possible that they were like, you know, maybe they had someone in the household that made sure that Luis was unable to give children. Like, maybe they sterilized her with medically, you know, without anybody noticing. Also tragic Also fucking underhanded and shady and shitty. But there is a. There is a very real possibility that Luis was just someone that he loved.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Again, part of me thinks nothing's left to chance. This close to Paul. This close to Paul's generation.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

So close. So part of me thinks, man, maybe everyone's marching to the beat of the Bene Gesserit at this point.

[Abu]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think looking at Minotaurus entry through that lens makes it much, much more interesting to consider what's in between the lines of the official history.

[Leo]

Yeah. If Paulus lingering ailment was. He was shoved down the stairs by a Bene Gesserit, like that makes sense. Guy was healthy, was feeling good.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

Choked on beef jerky. Yeah, sure, sure, sure. There's a knife in the chest as he was eating dinner.

[Abu]

Exactly. Like, think back to everything we've now talked about in this episode. Suddenly all of it is suspect.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Choked on beef. Are you kidding me? Paulos Unknown ailment. Got him in the end before he could have an heir.

[Leo]

Come on.

[Abu]

I sound like a crazy person. No, you sound like a crazy person.

[Leo]

No, you sound like a crazy. It's so good. Listen, I think this is why, at the end of the day, we love the Dune Encyclopedia, because by its narrative framing, it interacts with the characters in the story as its own thing. And you can do as much or as little as you want. Right. It is very possible that some of these discrepancies are just like, yeah, John wrote that chapter and Mary Jane wrote this chapter, and they didn't really cross reference dates. And you know that whatever happens. But because the entire framing of the Dune Encyclopedia is that it's an in universe document, we get to then have the fun of these sorts of conversations where we're like, holy shit, maybe it's all a conspiracy. Meanwhile, John and Mary Beth are like, oh, we just were bad at taking notes. We just didn't talk nearly enough about those specific details. So super fun. I love this idea of the Bene Gesserit. Yeah, that really does cast a whole new light on mentor's life. To think that truly every single little thing was not like, you know, these whims of his, but in fact, Bene Gesseritz in every shadow, making sure he's getting to where he needs to be.

[Abu]

Right. Would you leave your 10,000 year Kwisatz Haderach plan up to chance at this point, at this critical juncture? No, Doug, I don't think so. Yeah, it is much more fun to reconsider the entry through that lens. I will say, though, stepping back from our theorizing.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

As much as I appreciate these attempts at in universe explanations for some of this, ultimately I did walk away from this Minotaurus entry in the encyclopedia quite disappointed. I feel like it's one of the weaker entries. It's quite simplistic.

[Leo]

Sure.

[Abu]

It's less thematically resonant. I think some of many of the other entries, I mean, consider the like Joseph Vanport and Norma Sevna entry about the beginning. My God, that. That entry takes you on a journey.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

This one ultimately doesn't. And honestly, given the like, major date discrepancies that we've talked about all throughout today, given the like, quite contradictory nature of the entry with what we're told about the old Duke in the prime canon in the books, this one I personally feel that I can somewhat ignore.

[Leo]

Sure.

[Abu]

Outside of it being fun Bene Gesserit conspiracies, the entry itself, taken at face value, doesn't leave a lot of interesting details to really ponder, which is okay, you know, the encyclopedia is not ironclad. There's plenty of little details that are off the mark, even dates aside, you know, and this, for me, this entry feels like one of those, you know, it didn't necessarily add to my appreciation of the original text. What it did do is lead to a really fun and interesting conversation with you where we got to just put on our tinfoil hats and theorize. So I certainly enjoyed it in that aspect. But taken at face value, I don't think this entry, like, even hints at those theories. That's us filling in the details, given the rest of our Dune knowledge.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

I think if you took this entry in a vacuum without any other knowledge of Dune, it would be quite simplistic and uninteresting.

[Leo]

Yeah. My only. And of course, I'm always, I think of the two of us. I'm much more happy to be in a pretzel as I kind of like try to make these things work in kind of a lore crafty way. But I think also, you know, we've looked a lot at the later books that happened after the Dune Encyclopedia was published. This stuff is so documented. And I guarantee you every author writing these entries knew Dune well.

[Abu]

Oh, certainly you couldn't write the encyclopedia without knowing.

[Leo]

I think there is still. There's still plenty of opportunities. And I think that the document itself, the number of times in the Dune Encyclopedia we get these like, and no details are available about this. And you look at the Prime Canon and You go, oh, yeah, that makes sense, because X, Y and Z characters did X, Y, and Z. I see that invitation in the. In the pages occasionally. I enjoyed this entry. I like the idea that his. There's this, like, the shadowy killer of House Atreides is just cows in various iterations choking on beef and Benny.

[Abu]

Jesuit sisterhood. Cows. They're acolytes. You know, they went through the training. Yeah.

[Leo]

But then even with that in mind of, like, minnows dying to cow and then mentor dying to cow, you then get to Jessica fearing for Leto, and she sees him being drawn into this political corridor where he's now facing down the bull that is House Harkonnen. It's like, I enjoy those things. And then also the way that, like, however bad your parents might be for X, Y and Z reason, if you were to go on record in a history book, you might make an effort to be fair to them and say, despite, you know, despite their. Their failings, they were really good at X, Y, and Z. And then that's the historical record. And I think this is a really interesting example of that instinct that we, as storytellers have of historians saying, well, let's be fair in hindsight. And it's like, you don't have to be. You could just say he was a fucking asshole.

[Abu]

The truth doesn't have to be fair.

[Leo]

Everyone was really bothered by him all the time. I hadn't even written in this script. I imagined this conversation of, hey, Paulus, you've got House Atreides. Can I go off in Galavant? And Paulus goes, of course, brother. Do whatever you want. And I picture alternatively, that's the official.

[Abu]

Record of the state.

[Leo]

That's the official record, actually. Paulus is like, oh, my God. Fucking get out of here, my annoying ass.

[Abu]

Little brother wants to go far away. Yeah, get his ass out of here.

[Leo]

Just go. Go quickly, leave. You know?

[Abu]

Yeah. So certainly, it's always fun to consider historical inaccuracy as. As.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Underpinning all of this, because it's true.

[Leo]

Absolutely.

[Abu]

How much do we really know about Jesus? The alleged carpenter? Huh?

[Leo]

Alleged car. Did he even work with wood? Probably still. The guy I was watching said, yeah, probably.

[Abu]

But was he a carpenter, or is it just thematically resonant that he gets put on a wood cross later? And so the irony is just too juicy to not make him a carpenter.

[Leo]

Listen, you can see the Bene Gesserit's hand in everything. The Romans are persecuting him. Okay. Yeah, I can see what you're doing. Benny Jesuit. I will say, though, I think you're. I think you're absolutely right. The most fun part is the talking about it and is the discussion and. Super cool. Love it.

[Abu]

That's always the enjoyable part.

[Leo]

All right, well, that's. That's Mentor Atreides.

[Abu]

That's Minotaurus Atreides. The old duke himself.

[Leo]

The old Rip Rip did.

[Abu]

Honestly. I want an entry on the bowl now. You know, give me the life of the bowl.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Give me the inverse of this story from the bull's perspective. This guy's been hunting Minotaurus for 20 years. You know, he's been after him since he was a kid. Finally got his ass.

[Leo]

Finally got him. Yeah, that's true. Well, we have to. I mean, God, just to have another document like the Dune Encyclopedia written about all the other stuff.

[Abu]

I know.

[Leo]

Be so incredible, but what a project that would be. Well, dear listener, before we let you go, we want to remind you of a few ways to support us and what we do here at Gom Jabbar. And a few ways to keep in touch us and of course, the two best ways to support us. One is to become a patron or patreon.com gom jabbar and. Or get some Dune stuff. Dune themed swag from our merchandise store.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

Those links are in the show notes. Check them out. Your support makes what we do possible. Thank you.

[Abu]

It does indeed. Old Duke matador outfit dropping soon.

[Leo]

Keep an eye out, House Atreides bull cape. You need an Estoki S. Dookie bowl sword. We got you covered, fam.

[Abu]

We'll figure it out.

[Leo]

Legal footnote. No, Those things are probably not going to be on the set.

[Abu]

No, no, not. No dangerous items. Also, another reminder as we wrap up here that we love to hear from you.

[Leo]

Yes.

[Abu]

So email us scomtrabarpodcastmail.com Send us your thoughts, send us your questions, send cute pictures of your pets, Send us your crazy conspiracy theories that definitely don't make you sound crazy. Dom Jabbar podcast and Chimal is the place.

[Leo]

So now we get to consider our significant others. Are they Bene Gesserit?

[Abu]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

Have they been sent to corral us to, you know, every time one of our partners says, that doesn't sound like a good episode. Are they trying to hide something?

[Abu]

What are they trying to get at, huh?

[Leo]

What are they trying to hide, huh?

[Abu]

Is my grandkid gonna be the Kwisatz Haderach? And so everything in my life is engineered.

[Leo]

That's what I'm starting to wonder, was my first grade teacher really proud of my writing? She manipulating me?

[Abu]

Is this a podcast about Dune or a Bene Gesserit plot? Huh?

[Leo]

Oh my God.

[Abu]

Did you and I just happen to become friends years ago?

[Leo]

Oh, sure. There was that woman who pushed me into the room where you were hanging out. So mysterious.

[Abu]

Interesting. There was that woman who whacked me over the head with a microphone and really started my interest in podcasting. Huh?

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

I'm gonna have to think about that one.

[Leo]

Our lives unravel on microphone.

[Abu]

Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the Lower Party podcast network on lowerparty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Lore Underscore Party. We're also on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path.