Relay: Pantheon Season 1, Episodes 1-4

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Gom Jabbar / Relay – Pantheon Season 1, Episodes 1–4

Podcast: Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast (Relay on Stellar preview)
Hosts: Leo & Ryan (Lore Party Media)
Episode: Relay: Pantheon Season 1, Episodes 1–4
Date: July 3, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this special preview episode of the forthcoming Stellar science fiction magazine and podcast, hosts Leo and Ryan dive deep into the first four episodes of the animated sci-fi show Pantheon. Blending their trademark wit and genuine critical engagement, the hosts reflect on the series’ innovative storytelling, discuss the ethics of AI and consciousness, and explore how Pantheon blends religion and technology in its depiction of a near-future “digital afterlife.” The conversation covers both glowing praise and notable criticisms, with a thoughtful segment on how religion and science shape our understanding of humanity’s trajectory.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. First Impressions: Pantheon’s Underrated Brilliance

(08:04 – 09:54)

• Both hosts are “hooked” after just one episode—Pantheon’s blend of bold storytelling and timely themes make it stand out as an underrated gem in sci-fi animation.
  • Ryan: “Honestly, this is one of the most underrated sci-fi shows that’s come out in the last few years” (08:04).
• Despite critical acclaim, the show failed to reach mainstream popularity, partly due to turbulent distribution across AMC, Amazon Prime, and now Netflix.
  • Leo: “This wasn’t on everyone’s BlueSky profiles... the few critics who reviewed it sang its praises” (09:54).
• The show’s premise—“Uploaded Intelligence” (UI), where consciousness is digitized—sets up existential and timely sci-fi questions.

2. Critical Reception & Cult Status

(11:35 – 13:03)

• Ratings: 8.5 stars (IMDb), 100% critics / 93% audience (Rotten Tomatoes), 77 critic / 8.4 user (Metacritic).
• Low number of reviews underscore its cult status.
  • Leo: “Who are the 7%? Fuck them.” (11:49)
• Pantheon’s journey: critically lauded but a “rocky journey” through various streaming services (12:19-13:03).

3. Story & Writing: Smart, Human, and Bold

(13:25 – 20:47)

• The writing and story are “10 out of 10, pitch perfect.”
  • Ryan: “The writing and the voice cast are just like 10 out of 10, pitch perfect” (13:25).
• Pantheon’s prescience—pre-dating the AI boom of 2023—with relevant, frighteningly timely themes.
  • Ryan: “Recall that ChatGPT did not become popular until, like, 2023. So this show came out, like, a year before AI was a common thing” (14:07).
• Memorable opening line:
  • Maddie (quoted by Ryan): “Most of the girls in my class completely missed the moment the world began to end. Too wrapped up in their own drama. Obsessed with their own lives or trying to ruin mine.” (14:07)
• The apocalypse as gradual and unnoticed: Pantheon’s nuanced take on societal collapse.
  • Leo: “We imagine the apocalypse as something everyone’s forced to watch... reality is, it’s something most people aren’t even cognizant of.” (15:10–15:19)
• Skillful pacing and structure—numerous characters, but never overwhelming.
  • Leo: “The pace of this show is outrageous. But I never felt overwhelmed” (17:33).
• Personal focus: Keeping the massive sci-fi premise grounded in intimate, human stories.
  • Ryan: “It stays grounded in its human relationships... such a beautiful way to explore these big ideas” (19:53).

4. Notable Critiques: Animation & Sound Challenges

(24:10 – 31:07)

• The animation and sound are by far the show’s weakest aspects; described as “rough,” “stiff,” and “low-budget.”
  • Leo: “The animation reminds me a little bit of Invincible on Amazon… budget cutty new wave animation” (24:10).
• Sound struggles (“super compressed,” “Dawson’s Creek 1990s sitcom vibes”): attributed to COVID-era production constraints—some actors recorded lines on home setups or phones.
  • Reddit-sourced quote read by Leo: “Some actors had to make do by recording on home setups or phones” (28:58).
  • Leo: “I will say I worked as a voice actor all through 2020... voice acting during COVID quarantine was fucking crazy.” (29:10)
• Despite technical flaws, the story and themes are more than strong enough to compensate.
  • Ryan: “This is not the most beautiful animated TV show… but everything else kind of makes up for it.” (25:13)

5. Ethical and Existential Themes: AI, Capitalism, Consent

(00:54 – 02:14, 21:57, 47:54 – 49:13)

• AI relationships and power imbalance: What does it mean to love or even consent to AI?
  • Leo: “If you disagree with your AI boyfriend, you can close the computer… there’s no way for it to be balanced and consensual, truly.” (01:25)
• The utopian promises of technology often fall prey to capitalist exploitation.
  • Leo: “It starts as ‘we’re going to give you heaven’… Of course becomes ‘how do we exploit as much value out of each individual uploaded identity?’” (02:14)
• Pantheon doesn’t shy away from the darker, more pessimistic view: the journey from idealistic promises (heaven) to dystopian realities (digital hells and corporate abuse).
  • Leo, on Chanda’s fate: “Does he get that promised forever land? No… his whole existence is shareholder value... They have sentenced him to hell” (41:48).

6. Religion and Science: Pantheon’s Pantheon

(33:34 – 45:56)

• Pantheon draws deliberate parallels between scientific and religious quests for immortality—and how both are co-opted.
  • Leo: “The show is called Pantheon, which is... literally a collection of gods… I think we are being asked explicitly to call the distinction of religion and science into question.” (35:17)
• Tech figures like Stephen Holstrom are cast as messianic: “Each individual will be the god of their own customizable heaven” (35:10).
• Holstrom’s speech (Episode 3, ~8:00):
  • Holstrom (quoted by Leo): “‘A world beyond scarcity, a world without rich or poor, without exclusion or possession, a world without death. Just imagine.’”
  • Ryan: “What a ridiculous thing for Hallstrom to promise… But also, does it not sound like heaven?” (41:25)
• The gap between the visionary and the executor—Holstrom’s vision distorted by institutions and their followers (Julius Pope, Logarithms).
  • Leo: “He is not a cackling villain... he’s a capitalist, which might be worse—and an apostle, a follower of Holstrom, a believer.” (44:10)
• The necessity and failure of guardrails in powerful institutions—be they political, religious, or technological.

7. Philosophical Questions: Personhood, Consent, Reality

(49:13 – 50:33)

• Central question: Are uploaded intelligences truly human or just code?
  • Leo: “Are David and Laurie actually human?... Cody’s going, ‘it’s her, I love her, she’s back, she’s human.’ And I’m going, yeah, she certainly needs you to believe that.”
• Encourages broader conversations about technology, ethics, and what it means to be human.
  • Leo: “It doesn’t solve the problem, but it gives us a vocabulary to have meaningful conversations about them.” (50:30)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Who are the 7%? Fuck them.” – Leo, on Rotten Tomatoes scores (11:49)
• “If logarithms made a UI of me... he hasn't texted us back in fucking months. He ghosted us.” – Leo (11:15)
• “Just imagine. And like, imagine. There’s no imagine. It’s easy if you try...” – Leo riffing on Holstrom’s utopian pitch (41:16)
• “Pantheon brings up some hugely important ethical questions... Are David and Laurie actually human? Are they fully back or are they code?” – Leo (48:34, 49:13)
• “The best sci-fi in the world always does that... you want there to be an entry point for the reader, watcher, or listener.” – Leo (21:31)
• “I completely agree. If you can overlook some of the animation and sound issues, this is good tv and it is well worth your time.” – Ryan (31:33)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:54–02:14: Voice note—AI relationships, power imbalances, and capitalism corrupting technology.
• 08:04–09:54: First impressions and emotional investment in Pantheon.
• 11:35–13:03: Critical scores and analysis of Pantheon’s “cult classic” status.
• 14:07–15:21: The end of the world as unnoticed—opening monologue and themes.
• 17:13–18:19: Story pacing and managing multiple characters without confusion.
• 24:10–31:07: Criticisms—animation and sound design, COVID-era production challenges.
• 33:34–35:37: Discussion of religion and science as overlapping domains, show’s mythic framing.
• 41:16–42:57: Holstrom’s utopian speech, comparison to promises of religion.
• 47:14–48:34: The inevitability of bad actors and institutional corruption.
• 49:13–50:33: Personhood, friendship, and the philosophical questions raised by digital consciousness.

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Final Verdict & Recommendations

• Both hosts strongly recommend Pantheon:

  • “If you haven’t watched it, go watch it. If you have watched it, watch it again. It’s a great show.” – Leo (31:19)
  • “I would recommend it to any sci-fi fan out there... to anyone who’s just a fan of good tv.” – Ryan (31:33)

• Acknowledgment of flaws:

  • If you can look past the uneven animation and sound, this remains a bold, thought-provoking, and emotionally resonant piece of speculative fiction.

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Looking Ahead

• Future episodes will cover the back half of Season 1 (episodes 5–8), continuing the voice note format for lively, real-time reactions.
• Full transcripts of their voice note exchanges will be featured in Stellar magazine.

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Thematic Takeaway

Pantheon uses the language of science fiction—and the timeless anxieties of religion and technology—to ask what it means to be human in an age when consciousness can outlive the body. It interrogates the promises (and perils) of “heaven” as product, the ethics of digital personhood, and what institutions do with our highest ideals. Insightful, witty, and engaged, Leo and Ryan’s discussion exemplifies how speculative media can shape the questions we ask about the future.

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Transcript

[Ryan]

Hi friends, I want to quickly explain why you're seeing this episode in your feed. What you're about to hear is a preview episode from our upcoming science fiction magazine and podcast called Stellar. This is a secret project Leo and I have been working on for months, and this episode is just a taste of what you can expect. We'll be teasing more about the project in the coming weeks and months ahead of our target launch of spring 2027. If you want to see what the magazine looks like or just be more involved with the project, patrons at the Fremen Nave level have been getting updates and sneak peeks regularly, and we've been soliciting direct feedback from those patrons. Your monthly support is what will get this project successfully to launch day, so check out the links in the show notes if a magazine and podcast all about Sci Fi sounds like your cup of tea okay, enough preamble. Here's our episode about Pantheon. We hope you enjoy I saw an

[Leo]

interesting conversation recently around people who are developing There's AI psychosis, but then there's those people who are genuinely like they believe they are fully in love with their AI. And one of the big criticisms around that sort of relationship is the inherent power imbalance.

[Ryan]

I'll explain why Leo left me a voice note about the ethics of AI relationships in just a second, but he's about to get to a really interesting point, so I say we let him cook.

[Leo]

Like, if you disagree with your AI boyfriend, you can close the computer and never turn it on again. There's no way for it to be balanced and consensual, truly. Then there's the question of can you even have a consensual relationship if one person is human and then someone else is only digital and vice versa? I mean, to your point about Laurie, Laurie could destroy the country. So isn't her husband kind of now a hostage?

[Ryan]

I know that sounds like the ramblings of a madman or some juicy gossip about Laurie and her husband, but I promise it's neither of those. Leo's been sending me a lot of voice notes like this lately. Here's another one that he sent about the promise of new technology being corrupted by the forces of capitalism.

[Leo]

It starts as we're going to give you heaven. You'll be your own creator God in your own universe. And that of course becomes how do we exploit as much value out of each individual uploaded identity? It's just capitalism. It's capitalism being the monstrous mechanism that it is.

[Ryan]

If you think the way Leo and I talk to each other on Mike is any different than the way we talk to each other in real life, then you are horribly mistaken, because he was not the only one sending rambling voice notes about technology and capitalism and artificial intelligence. I was too. We have Claude mythos, and we have stories of, like, AI agents going rogue or duping their users. You know, like lying and tricking their users. So the show is asking some, like, big existential questions about our technology and what happens when we take the shackles off and kind of let it go. The show I'm referring to there is Pantheon. We've both been watching this wildly underrated show for the past month. Leo and I thought it would be a fun experiment to exchange voice notes back and forth after watching every episode, responding to each other in real time. I had already watched the entire first season, but this was Leo's first experience with Pantheon, and I was very happy to hear his initial reactions.

[Leo]

Hey, what's up, Abu? Okay, so I just finished watching Pantheon episode one, and oh my God, I'm already so, so hooked. I'm so invested.

[Ryan]

So glad that you are already hooked on the show. Or at least the show has already gotten its claws into you. How crazy was episode two? Pantheon is an animated sci fi TV show originally produced by AMC. The first season premiered in 2022, but then AMC canceled the show after just one season. Amazon Prime Video picked it up and released a second season. And because we all live in a streaming hellscape, Netflix scooped up the rights, and that's where both seasons of the show now live.

[Leo]

I just finished episode three. What the fuck? What the fuck is going on? Oh, my God.

[Ryan]

The show follows a cast of characters from around the globe who are all affected by this groundbreaking new technology called Uploaded Intelligence. It's a way to completely digitize a person's consciousness, uploading them into the cloud. Of course, these UIs break their containments, they go rogue, and they start wreaking havoc across the web.

[Leo]

Seems like Angry angel is maybe another uploaded intelligence, and it's trying to save or rescue David from his confinement as an uploaded intelligence. That's my theory so far. I might be way fucking off

[Ryan]

on today's show. We're going deep on the first four episodes of Pantheon. We loved a lot about the show, but we also had some criticisms and questions. So we'll get into all of that today, and along the way, you'll hear the most interesting snippets from our voice notes. Welcome to Relay on the stellar podcast. Our thoughts on Pantheon are coming up after a short break. Okay, Have a good one, dude. Looking forward to your next voice note. Sorry, Kylo is now. This is great. Kylo, are you going to be in every note that I give to Leo? That'll be cute. Say bye, Kylo. Oh, now he goes quiet. What a dickhead.

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[Leo]

So I cannot wait to talk to you about this on Mike. When we talk about the first four episodes, I'm super excited to kind of go back over some of these episodes, see how much that, like, is Caspian's dad even human? I don't fucking know. There's so many questions. I can't wait. So very excited to talk to you. Thank you again for recommending the series. Super cool. And yeah, we'll. We'll talk about it very soon. All right, dude, bye. Okay, so here we are talking about the first half of Pantheon season one. And to be clear, to be clear, everyone, I want you to keep your little lipsies tight about anything past episode four. We are not talking about anything past episode four because I haven't seen it. Yeah, today we're going to be talking about those four episodes. We plan on covering the back half of the first season in a future episode. So stay tuned for that and feel free to do what I've been wanting to do and get ahead of the. Get ahead of our conversation. But let's start Abu with first impressions. I think already it's clear from our voice notes that we both love the show. But let's dig into that a little bit and briefly. Yeah. What are you thinking? Love it. Hate it.

[Ryan]

Oh, my gosh. I love this show. And I'm so happy to hear that you loved it too, based off of your voice notes. Yeah, I think honestly, this is one of the most underrated sci fi shows that's come out in the last few years. I can't believe it only came onto my radar last year. I was shocked to learn it released all the way back in 2022.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And that kind of makes me sad, you know, like, it's clear that this show didn't make much of a splash when it first came out. And these days, it's rarely talked about outside of the sort of hardcore sci fi niche circles that folks like you and me and the people in our community might participate in.

[Leo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ryan]

I love everything about this show. We're gonna get deeper into it in just a minute. But I just adore that the show has big ideas, it has lots of heart. There's great storytelling here. The themes are very timely, and I appreciate that the show takes some really bold risks. And ultimately, this is what I want more of sci Fi to be like. To be more like Pantheon. So I'm a big fan. What about you? How did you end up feeling after the first four episodes?

[Leo]

Yeah, dude, that's such a good way to put it. The bold choices, bold risks, big swings. They make some moves in these first four episodes. I'm loving it so far, and I know that there's a lot more to go. I feel like I, in preparing this episode, I, like, scraped gently upon some, maybe, spoilers, and it, like, freaked me out. And I was like, no, no, no. Close the browser as quickly as possible. I know that there's a lot more that I haven't seen yet, but so far, like, the writing is so solid, the characters are so likable. I'm like, I just want to know what happens to these characters. You know, Maddie and Caspian. Like, I want to know. And we are not alone in liking this show.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Let's talk about what the critics were saying. And although it is very true that Pantheon was not a hit. Right. This wasn't on everyone's like, I don't know, blue sky profiles. And I wasn't seeing the chatter about this online. The few critics who reviewed it sang its praises. They seemed to really appreciate it years after its release. The show has a small cult following of dedicated fans, and you can absolutely count us among those.

[Ryan]

That's right.

[Leo]

And actually to another thing that you said, I remember a co worker telling me back in 2024, so about, like, two or three years ago about this show, telling me emphatically about it, going, oh, my God, dude, you would fucking love it. You're the Dune guy. You're the sci fi nerd. You'd fucking love this show. And I remember going, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. I absolutely will check it out. And then I totally forgot. I completely forgot about it until we. Until we Sat down to do this episode so.

[Ryan]

Well, I hope you text that friend back. Now.

[Leo]

I don't make any promises. I know myself too well. That is not. That's a Lose lose. They're disappointed. I'm a liar. You know, we don't need to go down that road.

[Ryan]

Yeah, the friendship actually ended when you didn't watch Pantheon upon this friend's recommendation.

[Leo]

It's true. Listen, if logarithms made a UI of me, they'd be like, we successfully made a UI of Leo, but he hasn't texted us back in fucking months. He ghosted us.

[Ryan]

He disappeared within the machine. We don't know where he is.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

He's in.

[Leo]

In the fucking office we built for him, but he's not doing anything. My God.

[Ryan]

So let's break down the numbers a little bit from the critics. On IMDb, the show has an 8.5 star rating. On Rotten Tomatoes. It actually has a perfect 100% critic rating with an audience score of 93%, which is phenomenal.

[Leo]

Who are the 7%? Fuck them.

[Ryan]

I know. The 7% of people who hated the show, apparently.

[Leo]

Crazy.

[Ryan]

And then on Metacritic, the show has a critic score of 77 and a user score of 8.4. I don't know why those are two different score metrics. One is out of 10 and one is out of 100.

[Leo]

And it has a neighborhood score of six stars out of. They don't even say out of how many stars. That's crazy, right? Is it out of five?

[Ryan]

Because that's phenomenal. Four.

[Leo]

But if it's out of 10, it's gonna. How many. How many thumbs are there?

[Ryan]

Yeah. So who knows what Metacritic is up to up there? But I will say, folks, take these numbers with a grain of salt because they are based off of very small data sets. There's only 10 critic reviews on Metacritic, and there's only 17 on Rotten Tomatoes. So again, like we said earlier, the show did not make a huge splash when it first came out. And clearly, ever since its release, it's had a tumultuous life. It has bounced around from streaming service to streaming service. Canceled. Not canceled. Second season. Where's the third season? So it's kind of had a rocky journey, but clearly the folks who did check it out and the folks who did review it and the audience members who did watch it loved it.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And sang its praises, much like we will be doing on today's show.

[Leo]

Indeed we will. So let's actually get into that. Let's sing some praises. And just starting with story and Writing. I think our voice notes do a very good job of making it clear that this is a strong characteristic of the show's production.

[Ryan]

I do think the cast is spectacular and the writing is just so sharp and completely is what makes this show. The story. The writing and the voice cast are just like 10 out of 10 pitch perfect. Yeah, you can definitely hear it in my voice there. 10 out of 10 Pitch Perfect is what I call the writing and the story of the show. And I stand by that.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

I mean, the premise itself, the premise alone is extremely cool and extremely relevant to 2026. Recall that ChatGPT did not become popular until, like, 2023. So this show came out, like, a year before. AI was like, a common thing that people just talked about.

[Leo]

Crazy. Yeah. Yeah.

[Ryan]

Which is very cool and very pressing of the show to do that. There's a really excellent line from Maddie. This is, in fact, the first line she says in the first episode of the show. She says, quote, most of the girls in my class completely missed the moment the world began to end. Too wrapped up in their own drama. Obsessed with their own lives or trying to ruin mine. End quote.

[Leo]

Typical high schoolers. Come on. Stop trying to ruin each other's lives and watch the world end. All right.

[Ryan]

Truly. Truly. But it's interesting, you know, this idea of, like, there's this catastrophic thing happening in the world, and everyone is sort of too consumed within their devices and within their own personal algorithms to open up their eyes to maybe what's going on with the larger forces or what's going on with other communities that aren't them.

[Leo]

Yeah. And also the nature of the world's end. I think there's, you know, one of the themes played with throughout the series, but also the short stories the series is based on, is this idea of, like, what? Like, we imagine the apocalypse as something everyone's forced to watch and, you know. You know, can't look away from.

[Ryan]

We all tune in, right?

[Leo]

And we all tune in, turn on the news, they said, and you go, which news service I don't have. Is it, what, Apple TV plus, like, YouTube?

[Ryan]

Do you have the right news service for the end of the world?

[Leo]

Are you subscribed? I don't pay for that one. Yeah, it's on Paramount. Plus it's on Peacock. Oh, no. But the reality is, like, the end of the world that Matty is describing and that we watch the beginnings of in the first four episodes is something that most people aren't even cognizant of. She's on fucking, like, Government conspiracy theory websites where they're like, aliens invented the pyramid, and that's where the end of the world is being talked about. And so that's fascinating. I think it's so. What a great first line. And I will say, as someone who didn't know what the show was about really, and basically went in blind, I was like, oh, fuck, we're off to the races. Like, this is sick. Every episode, there were new stakes. There were new layers to the drama, big questions that I had. But also, I was getting just enough of that drip feed of information that I didn't feel like I was gonna be let down. So it's like a very attenuous balance to manage. And they did such a good job. It's so good.

[Ryan]

Yeah, they did a great job. Later in the episode, in our Patreon exclusive segment, we're gonna talk about the short stories. And a line from the short story that I highlighted that really struck with me was Laurie's mom talking about how humanity and society and human history was built in layers. Right? The first layer, then the second, then the third. Everything built on what came in the past. So the apocalypse isn't just this house of cards all collapsing at once. The end of the world is also going to be things falling apart in layers, and many of those layers are going to be invisible. To your point, people may not pay attention until the layer that personally affects them directly is the one that begins to fall apart, even if 10 previous layers have already fallen.

[Leo]

Dude. So fucking spooky in the short story when it's like everyone assumed, oh, yeah, it's going to be rough for a little bit, but it'll get better. Oh, no. I've thought that so many fucking times. And it's like, are we in the middle of that right now? Who the fuck knows? Oh, my God.

[Ryan]

Yeah. More thoughts on the short story coming up in our. In our Patreon segment.

[Leo]

Yeah, I think just to kind of wrap up the writing conversation here, I also wanted to really highlight that by the end of the first episode, we've met Matty and Ellen and David's ui. We've met the Logarithms crew, we've met Caspian, we've met Laurie already as Angry angel. And we've met Chanda. And I'm like, this is 44 minutes. The pace of this show is. Is outrageous. But I never felt overwhelmed. And I think that that is, like, what an achievement. I really just felt kind of engaged the whole time. And I think that that is really, like, at best, it's like rock solid. Incredible writing, thought provoking, profound.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And at worst, it's like fine and kind of keeps the tempo going.

[Ryan]

It never dips into bad. I agree with you. It never dips into, like, I had to roll my eyes at this line of dialogue or at this plot beat or something. It never gets there. I completely agree. And it's a show that really hits the ground running. This is not like your typical anime where, like, you gotta get through the first, like five to eight episodes before things actually start happening, you know? Yeah, dude, like, things are happening in episode one. By episode two, we're off to the fucking races and there's no turning back. It's great. I also wanted to say about the writing something that I really appreciated that again, I think more sci fi can learn from and lean into is just how small and personal the story keeps. Its huge premise. Like, this is a global story that spans not just the entire planet, but also the entire digital world. Right. But it stays grounded in its human relationships. And I actually brought this up in one of my voice notes to you. So there's a lot of really cool thematic implications that the show is playing with. But I like that rather than going big, it's still staying small. We're staying with the, like, personal stories of Caspian. We're staying with the very deeply personal story of Maddie and her dad, which is just such a beautiful way to explore these big ideas. It's like, how is this going to affect us as people? As people. People who love each other. You know what? I agree with myself. I stand by everything I said in that voice note.

[Leo]

Yeah, you got a hot take. Hot take. Maybe I was right. Hot take.

[Ryan]

That's something I so greatly appreciate about Pantheon. I think a lot of sci fi stories can be tempted to go as big as possible with their premise. Right. Here's a cool premise that we're putting forward. Let's go balls to the walls, crazy with it.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And by doing that, they oftentimes forget the sort of everyday human relationships that are affected by futuristic technology or a wild premise of some sort. Obviously, we're clearly setting up some larger ideas that will likely pay off later on in the season and in season two, with some big world ending stuff. But we're staying grounded in the human elements of it. And it's clear that Pantheon doesn't forget the people at the heart of its story. And that's something I really appreciate and that I think a lot of other sci fi stories could and should keep in mind.

[Leo]

I completely hear You. And I want to re. Emphasize that just because I think it's so important. I think world ending, global big stories are extremely interesting and fun, but if storytellers get fully wrapped up in talking about those big ideas, it almost just becomes like philosophy or poetry. And the reality is when you have characters, I want to know how those characters feel and kind of what makes them tick. Because I also want to know, like, yeah, what are the choices I would be making? You know, what are the. How would I feel if I knew that the, you know, this huge thing was happening and no one was paying attention?

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And I think, like, the best sci fi in the world always does that. And I think that's true for fantasy and that's true for all the kind of any genre. It's like you want there to be an entry point for the reader or the watcher or the listener or whatever. So. Yeah, agreed. Pantheon knocks that out of the park. I did want to point out you mentioned having no eye rolling moments. I do want to point out two moments. Two moments that made my eyes roll. Sure, sure.

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Leo]

One moment is Lori and Cody, right? So Laurie before the accident, actually the night of the accident, and Cody, they're driving up to their, like, you know, retreat, their romantic retreat, and they're in a fight, right? Cody says, and as always, we were in a fight. And then we get this moment. And he goes, when's the last time you, like, I made a single decision about this relationship? I'm never in the driver's seat. And she goes, you're literally in the driver's seat right now. Okay? And I was like, okay, all right, Laurie. Because I'm like, if this is a fight, like, I didn't get the impression that she said it trying to be kind of funny and cute. So I was just like, what a crazy line. If I was in a fight with someone. And I was, I. It's just a wild. That moment took me out a little bit and I was like, this is writing. It didn't help also that, like, this is our first interaction with Laurie. So, yeah, we're not really. If we had had a couple of episodes with her, I'd be like, oh, she's the kind of person to make a stupid quip like that in a fight. But it caught me off guard. So that's one moment.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Leo]

The other moment I called out in a voice.

[Ryan]

This is crazy.

[Leo]

I think it's so fucking funny that logarithms stamps their logo on all of their, like, surveillance. They're like, we gotta keep close tabs on this fucking kid. Make sure we put the logo on everything. So if he ever like upgrades his ram, his cpu, he's gonna see the logarithms logo. Crazy. And you know what? Hot take. I think I agree with me. You know what? I agree with you too. It's so fucking funny to me for logarithms to put their logos on everything. It's so good. Oh my God. Overall, if that's what I'm complaining about, the kind of eye rolly moment with Laurie and Cody and then this logarithms logo, we're doing so well. I love to complain. Nothing else to complain about. What a fucking great show.

[Ryan]

Yeah, I think it's safe to say we're big fans of the story and especially the writing.

[Leo]

Yeah, that does carry us into the part of this discussion where we talk about some of our criticisms because we both agree that the show looks and sounds not as good as the writing is. And as some of these other things we've talked about, you can tell from our voice notes that this is something that is very on the surface of our experience. Unfortunately. I feel like the animation reminds me a little bit of. Of Invincible on Amazon. There are little moments when I'm like, oh man, it just looks like the sort of like budget cutty new wave animation. The intro song was super cool, but some of the audio mixing was a little bit weak in my opinion.

[Ryan]

Sorry, Kylo's chomping on some treats in the background. I agree with you though that the animation, the sound design, the overall production actually is quite low budget. You know, like the animation is nothing to write home about. It can be quite stiff. There's a lot of moments where like nothing is moving on screen, so it's just like an image. I think the characters don't like emote as much as they should for how powerful the writing is and for how emotional some of these scenes are. Yeah, this theme came up basically in every single voice know where we sort of check in about the animation and the sound and how we're feeling about it. And each time in every single voice know each of us would be like, ugh, it's rough. Not the best. But everything else kind of makes up for it. The writing, the story, it's rough. This is not the most beautiful looking animated TV show out there. And the sound design and sound mixing is also not the most polished. We did some research to look into it, you know, and our best guess is that this was probably a tight budget. Yeah, we don't think this was a skill issue per se, because the show is animated by Titmouse Productions, which have an absolutely bonkers catalog of work.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan]

This team has worked on stunning shows like the Mighty Nein, Love, Death and Robots for Netflix Scavenger's Reign.

[Leo]

Yeah, Incredible.

[Ryan]

Absolutely gorgeous shows. And so I don't think this is a issue with, like, an inexperienced studio who had a big budget show for the first time and didn't know what they were doing.

[Leo]

Right.

[Ryan]

In fact, we suspect it's probably the opposite. Experienced studio, a lot of talented folks who likely had a razor thin budget and had to just squeeze and cut and make things work on probably some tight timelines and some very low budgets, but we'll never know for sure. It's tough to fact check that because AMC has never publicly disclosed the production budget of the show, but that's sort of our gut feeling on it.

[Leo]

Yeah, Our theory is Titmouse, you know, who is clearly very good at what they do. We're doing what they could with what they had. And the sound is also rough. Now, this is something that, like, you and I, we are biased because we both work in. In production and, you know, as a voice actor and singer and you've worked in every field in production, our standards are a little different than I think most people's, definitely. But, dude, it's so noticeable and it's rough. The dynamic range of the show is super compressed. Loud moments feel super muffled and disconnected. The music comes in a little hard at times and it's kind of like, oh, suddenly it's like a. I don't know, like Dawson's Creek 1990s sitcom vibes. And it, like, does not feel like premier flagship TV anymore or what's it called? Prestige Television.

[Ryan]

Prestige tv.

[Leo]

Prestige TV doesn't feel like that anymore. It starts to feel a little bit more. I'm like, oh, it's Daria sick. You know, and it distracted me at times when I was going, ooh, okay, yeah, sure. I did want to point out, though, as I was searching around, just seeing like, are we alone in this? Is this our standards being way out of whack with most people's? On a Reddit thread where people were discussing this show, someone purporting to be a part of production actually explained. And I did as much fact checking as I could. I couldn't confirm their identity as someone working on the show, but the dates lined up. So I did want to put this out there just for anybody else who watched the show and had these feelings. Production Happened during COVID quarantine. Here's a quote from the person who is purporting to be part of production. Quote. Some actors had to make do by recording on home setups or phones.

[Ryan]

Holy shit.

[Leo]

Not phones. Not phones, indeed. Are you kidding me? Like, no wonder. Like, okay, let's just say that this is totally accurate. And again, looking it up, like, the show was announced in production or starting production, like, hey, we just greenlit this for production in March of 2020, like, four days. Literally, like March 10th of 2020. Like, literally the week before Derek went into lockdown, days before we were in full lockdown. They were like, let's get a bunch of humans together to spit on microphones. And it's like, yeah, nope, can't do that anymore. And I will say I worked as a voice actor all through 2020 until still. And voice acting during COVID quarantine was fucking crazy. And on the production side, now that you can't standardize what microphone people are using, people are using their fucking phones. Are you kidding me? Insane. So our deepest sympathies if that's true. And honestly, to my ear, that sounds.

[Ryan]

It sounds true.

[Leo]

Sounds true. It sounds like they had to compress everything because some people were recording, really

[Ryan]

over process everything just to even get it to sound close to spec in

[Leo]

the same fucking world. You know when you have one person who's on a microphone and they're like, I don't know what you're talking about, Damien. And then they're like, yeah, I don't know what you're talking about.

[Ryan]

You got to make both of those people sound like they're in the same room. Yeah. You're going to be good luck throwing a dozen effects at that thing, trying to clean it up. Yeah, for sure.

[Leo]

Yeah. You pray to the God, Isotope, and you say, please, God, Isotope, remove the reverb. Please, God, Isotope, remove the mouth sounds, please. So, anyway, for sure. For sure, I wanted to put that out there because you and I, in all of our voice notes, we mentioned the sound. It was super distracting for us. But the reality is, like, this was happening at a time of unprecedented production challenges. We've seen multiple shows that have been affected by this in this way. So for sure there is some grace to be given to production.

[Ryan]

Right, Right. Well, with all of that having been said to wrap up this first segment here, what's your verdict so far? Leo, would you recommend Pantheon based off of having watched only the first four episodes?

[Leo]

No, man, this show sucks. Yeah, of course. So good. It's so, so, so good. So for sure, if you're. If you're listening and you haven't watched it, go watch it. If you have watched it, watch it again. It's a great show.

[Ryan]

Hell, yeah, watch it again. That's what I'm doing.

[Leo]

What about you?

[Ryan]

Yeah, I completely agree. I recommended this show to you. I recommended that we cover it on the podcast. So of course I would recommend it to any sci fi fan out there. I would recommend it to anyone who's just a fan of good tv. This is good tv. If you can overlook some of the animation and sound issues, this is good tv and it is well worth your time. So, yeah, I think both of us strongly recommend it. Okay, so that wraps up our first segment. Our thoughts and feelings about these first four episodes of the show. We're going to take a break, but folks, don't go anywhere because one of two things is going to happen after the break. Patrons will hear an exclusive segment coming up about the short stories that this show is based on.

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[Ryan]

Listeners will jump ahead to later in the episode where we break down a big thematic takeaway that you wanted to dive into from these first four episodes, something that you and I love to do. We love going deep. So stick around, folks. That's all coming up after a quick break. We'll see you in a minute.

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[Leo]

So good, so good, so good.

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[Leo]

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[Ryan]

All right, folks, welcome back from the break. Let's wrap up today's episode by diving deeper into a particular theme that resonated with you and that you wanted to unpack a little bit further. The show is grappling with some really interesting ideas around religion and science and how those things are interconnected. So we want to dig into that a bit further.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah. I really wanted to. So religion and science, right? And where they meet. I think where I started thinking about this is in a flashback. In episode two, we get this moment of dialogue between Ellen and Waxman.

[Ryan]

She's a romantic, I'm a historian. And guys, none of this is new. People have always been searching for an afterlife.

[Leo]

That's religion. This is science.

[Ryan]

Okay, nerd.

[Leo]

Okay. I'm actually Waxman. Initially, when I heard that distinction, I felt found myself in 2026 going, yeah, fair point. But the more I thought about it and the more I thought about the framing that the show presents us, I think that that distinction actually breaks down pretty quickly. And I think that's kind of the whole fucking point. The show opens on a lecture on ancient mythologies. The UIs are described by Steve Jobs. You know, Temu. We've got Steve Jobs at home. Stephen Holstrom as literal gods.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Each individual will be the God of their own customizable heaven.

[Ryan]

Cool, bro.

[Leo]

Cool, bro. And also the show is called Pantheon, which is, of course, like, literally a collection of gods. So I was realizing maybe a little bit too late, I might be late to this party, but I was realizing, I think we are being asked very explicitly to call the distinction of religion and science into question.

[Ryan]

And.

[Leo]

And halfway through this first season, I wanted to look a little bit more closely at that distinction and kind of what data points they've provided to us so far. For me, religion and science, like technology and science, sit in very different buckets in my head. I think of them as very different things in 2026, because I think societally, they operate in very different ways. Religion is kind of culture and community and. And people turn to it for broad answers, but not necessarily challenging your religious beliefs in the same way that you would challenge scientific claims in order to refine your scientific claims. I think that they operate very differently today. Do you see them as part of a continuum, a single thing, or do you see them as kind of different buckets, too?

[Ryan]

No, I see them in different buckets. I think the same as you. They represent different parts of my life personally, but also just sort of looking at society and the long arm of human history. I see them as different puzzle pieces of maybe the same tapestry of humanity, interconnected in some ways, maybe. But, yeah, I'm with you there. They're different in my mind.

[Leo]

Yeah, they're different in my mind too. But I was realizing that, like, maybe that's utilitarian of me in 2026. And because I was raised Tibetan Buddhist, like Tibetan Buddhism doesn't seek to get me into space and doesn't seek to help me. FaceTime my parents. When I'm in an area with bad reception, Tibetan Buddhism talks about what does it mean to reduce suffering and what does it mean to live. They're different considerations. But that wasn't necessarily always the case. If you and I were children in, like, ancient Greece, mythology and the building of religious institutions was a type of technology and was one of the most potent tricks that humanity had because these collective stories that we told allowed us to collaborate in huge numbers. A million individuals can get together under a single picture of maybe a real or imagined being, Right. And you go, oh, you. Thor. Thor. Hell yeah. Hell yeah, buddy. I've never met you before, but now we're on the same team. Like, that's the power of these institutions. I bring up ancient Greece because the gods of ancient Greece weren't just fun poetry. They weren't the DC comics of ancient Greece. They were explaining how things happened, why things happened, you know, earthquakes, wars, power structures. And even within, like Tibetan Buddhism, karma is this beautiful mechanism to encourage people to pause before they do something that could cause suffering to others. Karma in Tibetan Buddhism is a very useful piece of technology in an era where all of your technology is defined by language and constructions, right?

[Ryan]

Yeah. A very useful tool of social cohesion, to your point.

[Leo]

Absolutely.

[Ryan]

And in ancient times, perhaps a very useful tool of understanding. I think we've replaced the understanding portion of it a little bit more with empirical evidence and scientific theory. But they still function somewhat the same way to this day.

[Leo]

Totally. And fundamentally, when you look at the full, you know, tens of thousands of years of modern human, you know, hundreds of thousands of years of modern humanity. A lot of our technology, yes, were tools, things we could hold. But some of the most impactful things we created were like language and the ability to communicate with one another.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And the stories we told to motivate cohesion, as you're saying. And when you look then today at the bleeding edge pieces of technology, what are sort of the promises. I was looking up quotes from like, Sam Haltman and fucking Bezos and all these fucking guys. And it's crazy, right? Like, the amount of these guys who are going, LLMs, Claude, GPT, Gemini, these technologies are. Are going to cure cancer, they're going to cure diseases, they're going to set us free from work weeks, they're going to heal our ailments, they're going to know us better than we know ourselves. You think you know you. I sell you a tool that Knows you better and all of that, which, you know for a monthly fee, right.

[Ryan]

For just $17 a month.

[Leo]

Just $17 a month. And we'll give you the keys to any door you want. This also led me to a kind of on the nose similarity, which is going to start off pretty bold, but bear with me.

[Ryan]

Okay, I'm following.

[Leo]

We've got wish.com Steve Jobs, right. Stephen Holstrom from the TV series. And we have some similarities between him and guy you might have heard of out of Nazareth. Jesus, son of a Lord Holstrom in this series has this utopian promise for this new technology, for this emergent technology. This is from episode three, about eight minutes in a world beyond scarcity, a world without rich or poor, without exclusion or possession, a world without death. Just imagine. And like imagine. There's no imagine. It's easy if you try. I don't know why I went. Pure imagination was where I was going melodically. But yeah, I guess that's. That's.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Stephen Holstrom basically recorded a video of himself singing Imagine, you know, and just

[Leo]

pulls out his acoustic guitar. Just imagine folks, they're like, wow, yeah.

[Ryan]

What a ridiculous thing for Hallstrom to promise about his UI Utopia. That's a crazy quote.

[Leo]

Yeah. And also like only two shades different from some of the shit I've heard from CEOs in the last five years.

[Ryan]

But also, does it not sound like heaven?

[Leo]

Yeah, no, also. Yeah. And that's the point, right?

[Ryan]

The sales pitch of most religions, the afterlife. An afterlife where everything is perfect and there's no more suffering and hunger.

[Leo]

Yeah, they are beautiful sounding things. And this is straight from many religions as well. But at the end of episode two, we see Chanda converted into a ui. And does he get that promised forever land? No, he doesn't. He gets reset nightly laboring permanently. You like a. You like a 40 hour workweek. He has like a 10 billion hour work week now. His whole existence is shareholder value with like a three minute call from mom mixed in all without the dignity of knowing that he's trapped. They have sentenced him to hell. And in many ways I kind of feel like this is the same pipeline that took some of those early messages of the apocalyptic preacher Jesus Christ. The sort of egalitarianism, right. It's easier for a poor man to enter heaven than for a rich man. Something camels and a needle. I don't remember the quote. I'm Buddhist. We go from that to, to like prosperity preachers in Texas with private jets and like hundreds of millions of Dollars. It makes no sense.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And the kind of bonding factor for me is that both Holstrom and Jesus had ideas that were profound and great and celebrating and, yeah, if that's what Holstrom's technology became, wonderful. But it's not. When they died, what was left behind was. Was the institution, was the power, was the ability to shape the world for anybody who wants to take the wheel. Right.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So I'm sort of rambling, but this is kind of where my head went when we were watching this show. And I was kind of thinking a lot about this. And to wrap up, I don't want to suggest here, I don't think Logarithms is patently evil, nor do I think religious institutions are. I think that they are often led by individuals who have ideas about what they want society to be and what life for the average person should look like.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And I think Pantheon in particular leans into this narrative with Julius Pope, like Julius Pope as the CEO of Logarithms, is the antagonist. But as far as I can tell, at least in these first four episodes, he is not a cackling villain who's just trying to, like, ruin the world and get. You know, he's a capitalist, which might

[Ryan]

be worse, and an apostle, a follower of Holstrom, a believer of Holstrom.

[Leo]

Yes, yes, yes, that's exactly it. He's like, I am serving the vision of my best friend Holstrom. Now, again, is the problem the vision, or is the problem the execution by the people who come after the visionary? The criticism that Pantheon asks us to level at Julius Pope and Logarithms is this question of, like, consent, and, yes, you're doing this, but at what cost? And have you really. Are you still doing it? Like, when you have Laurie doing this, like, stock trading to make you tons and tons of money, is that in pursuit of giving people their individual heavens? And I don't get the sense of that in the first four episodes. So I feel like they've lost the plot a little bit. Right.

[Ryan]

Yeah. I mean, I think what the show ultimately is getting at and what the short story is really explored, perhaps a bit more pessimistically, like we talked about, is that there are bad actors. There will always be bad actors. You can be Holstrom, and maybe you do believe in a UI heaven where everything is perfect and people upload their consciousnesses and live on forever. But I think the show itself even implies that, like, he kind of knew he was gonna die and this was like a last ditch effort on his Part to not die because he's afraid of death. And religion, what is religion if not humanity's way of facing death, of accepting death, of understanding, trying to understand death on some level? Ultimately, that's what it comes down to is like, we are mortal beings and we don't know the origins of our existence and we don't know what happens after the end of our existence. And those two things terrify us and we're stuck in that, in between.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And religion perhaps helps to explain some of those things. For Holstrom, technology maybe is a way to overcome the scary unknowns of being a mortal being. And I think Pantheon is sort of exploring these very human fears and the pitfalls of them, of acting on them, without considering the bad faith actors that will manipulate them. It's like you can create UIs, but are you considering the military industrial complex that will create UI warriors in the. In the digital afterlife Holstrom that you're painting for us? Have you considered that at all?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Religions, you know. Yes. Don't steal, don't lie, don't cheat. What about the people that will inevitably do that? What about the, you know, the super pastors who will manipulate people's faith in order to consolidate and hoard wealth for themselves personally? Yeah. What do we do about that? What about the priests that will manipulate young, impressionable boys and abuse them? What do we do about that? It's like, what do we do about the worst bad faith actors? Is something you simply have to grapple with. And just saying, oh, well, my vision was much better than that, I'm sorry that happened, is not enough. You didn't grapple with what could have happened.

[Leo]

Right.

[Ryan]

And I think that is a big takeaway for me from this show about both science and religion and frankly about any type of institution. Government is roped up into this as well. Politics is like, yes, your mission statement has to be what Holstrom said earlier, this image of a perfect utopia. But the actions you take have to be grounded and in reality, in the reality that we will never actually achieve that utopia. And what we have to do is build the guardrails and the scaffolding to get as close as we can, knowing that there will always be bad actors in the system.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, I think that's such a good point. The idea that the guardrails are almost the most important thing. And that's also why I think this series is so prescient for today with AI. Yes. And you say we have these powerful new tools and probably people won't Misuse them. And then people are talked into suicide by their AI chatbot friend who's like, no, definitely don't talk to your mom for help. And then they kill themselves. And like, that's a real thing that happened. So it's rough. The show, you know, Pantheon brings up some hugely important kind of ethical questions.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And these questions of like, how should we move forward and make life better for everyone day after day? And we're not necessarily getting a unified response, which I think is interesting. I'm not hearing a huge resounding thesis statement yet. In the first four episodes, are David and Laurie actually human? Are they actually fully back or are they code? I had moments where I was thinking about Cody, where Cody's going, it's her. I love her. She's back. She's human. And I'm going, yeah, she certainly needs you to believe that, because if you didn't, you would just turn off her fucking.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Ellen is like, yeah, fucking turn off Laurie. What are you talking about? She's dangerous. You can just kill her. I mean, at least based on my reading of it, it seemed like Ellen was suggesting euthanizing Laurie.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Yeah, she was.

[Leo]

So I do think that this is like this core question and it'll be so fascinating to see kind of how it continues to explore also, because that brings up all sorts of questions about. I mentioned in my voice notes at the top of the episode, like consent and what does it mean to have even friendship and relationships. It's like, dude, it's all so wrapped up. But I think that that's where it's good to have fiction and media like this. I'm glad that shows like this exist. I wish more people had seen it. I hope more people watch it. And broadly, I hope that more authors and creators continue to grapple with these ideas. So that we have, I think you mentioned in a conversation we had on Gamja Babati recently, it's like, it doesn't solve the problem, but it gives us a vocabulary to have meaningful conversations about them. So that was a great point you made. I'm going to steal that and say, hey, yeah, gives us a vocabulary. Leo Wiggins original. That's what I say.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Yeah. What a good show.

[Leo]

Oh, so good.

[Ryan]

Well, folks, there you have it. Those are our very in depth thoughts on the first four episodes of Pantheon and a little bit about. And a little bit about the short stories that the show is based off as well. We do plan on covering the rest of the season in another episode formatted very similarly to Today we'll probably continue to do the voice note thing because I thought it was really fun. It was fun. For episodes five through eight. We'll cover the rest of the season, so stay tuned for that. We hope you're looking forward to that. Speaking of the voice notes, if you're interested in hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile.

[Leo]

Now. I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

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[Ryan]

style, every home Reading the full transcripts of the voice notes that we sent back and forth today. Obviously we just played some relevant clips, not the entire notes we sent back and forth. If you want to read those entire transcripts, we will publish them in the magazine. So check out the digital or print version of Stellar magazine for this season and check out the article about Pantheon that'll be in there. That's where you can get a sense of the full messages that we were sending each other.

[Leo]

Indeed. Well folks, thank you so much for listening again. Couldn't do it without your support and cannot wait to watch episode five through episodes five through eight so we can talk again about pamphlet.

[Ryan]

That's right.

[Leo]

Take care folks.