B (2:02)

Indeed. Now for a spoiler free look, completely spoiler free, look at Face Dancers. Maybe you've seen the trailer for Denis Villeneuve's Dune Messiah and you've seen Robert Pattinson and you're like, wow, he looks pale and strange. If you want to know about his character without getting any spoilers at all, you can find out what Face Dancers are, what they can do in the episode we recorded back in 2022 called Benny Tleilax. Who Face Dancer. So there's a whole episode, it's completely spoiler free.

A (2:35)

That's right.

B (2:36)

Super gross, super icky, but very interesting and will prime you to expect great things from Mr. Robbie Patty.

A (2:46)

That's right. It was a fun episode. I definitely recommend going back and listening to that one. It's a deep Lore Dive on face dancers. It really is, of course, up top. We also need to shout out our own face dancer, Kwisatz Haderach level patrons, Daniel Dion, Seth Red and Greer Brad Hutchins, Kevin Mahaner and Roger Young. If that's even any of your real names. Are those just stage names?

B (3:12)

Stage names, yeah.

A (3:16)

The stage name bit will make sense in a little bit, folks. It's a. It's a sidetail thing.

B (3:20)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (3:21)

Thank you so much to our Kwezatz Haderach level patrons. But of course, our gratitude and our heartfelt thank yous extend to all of our patrons at every level who truly help make this show possible. We could not do this week in and week out without your support and we deeply appreciate it.

B (3:38)

Indeed we do. Also, hey, listen, if you're not in a place to financially support us right now, telling a friend, especially as this new movie's coming out, telling a friend about Gom Jabbar is such a good way to support us and what we do. It's completely free. And hey, if you do have some funds jangling about in your pocket, but you're fatigued on subscription services, we also have a one time tip link in our show notes. It's a buy me a coffee link. Another great way to keep the lights on here at Gom Jabbar. But again, if you want a free way to do it, just tell a friend about your favorite Dune podcast. Makes all the difference in the world to have New Year's experience. This thing we do for better or for worse. But hopefully for better.

A (4:21)

That's right, mostly for better. All right, housekeeping, out of the way. Let's talk about today's episode. If you have listened to any of our character deep dive episodes over the years, you basically know what to expect today. Today we're talking about Scytale, the legendary face dancer that we first meet in Dune Messiah. We'll start actually by by looking at Scytale's early life. This is an information sourced from the Dune Encyclopedia, exploring his life before the events of Dune and Dune Messiah. And then we'll dive into the events of those books and consider what we can glean from the encyclopedia and the extended Lore universe and kind of revisit those stories from a Scytale focused lens.

B (5:06)

Super cool. Yeah.

A (5:07)

And then finally, we'll wrap up the episode by talking about the film. We're super stoked about Dune Part three. We got our first glimpse at Robert Pattinson, who will portray Scytale in the film. And so we'll wrap up today by jumping into some theory corner stuff and talking about what we expect and hope to see from Scytale in the upcoming film.

B (5:30)

Very cool. Can't wait. But before we get into all of that, we're going to take a tiny break. Don't go anywhere, dear listeners. You'd be crazy to stop listening now. When we're back, we're talking about Scytale. We'll be right back.

C (5:46)

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A (6:14)

Welcome back, folks. Let's do it. As promised, let's dive into the early life of Scytale. So, according to the Dune Encyclopedia, the Face Dancer born with the name Sir Fakradler, okay. Was born in 10160 AG as the offspring of two Leilaxu folks. Mr. Shurfak Rai Shidler Schedler. Something is going to. We will now be referring to him by his stage name that he will take later in life. Scytale. Yeah, it's our boy Scytale.

B (6:51)

We're buddies. We don't need government names here.

A (6:54)

No, no, no. We don't need to see official id. We love a stage name. We're going to be referring to him as Scytale because honestly, Sherfak Rai Shetler is just too much of a mouthful.

B (7:04)

True. Very true.

A (7:06)

So what do we know about Scytel's parents? Well, it's pretty interesting. His first parent was Sravka IR Carla, who was the Minister for Foreign Trade for the Tleilaxu. And now I'm suddenly wondering, was Scytel a Nepo baby?

B (7:24)

Oh, my God. Might have been. Wow. All right.

A (7:27)

Son of the Foreign Trade Minister. Wow.

B (7:31)

Pretty good. Okay.

A (7:33)

I don't know. I'm sure it didn't hurt his chances as a kid, you know?

B (7:36)

No.

A (7:36)

In getting ahead in life.

B (7:37)

Yeah. Those are good genetics.

A (7:40)

The son of a minister, particularly good genetics. At the very least. Yeah. Now, his other parent. Here's what we know about his other parent. This was Dr. Garrick L? Nuo. And Dr. Nuo is particularly special because this is the person who invented the implantation process for D strand messages inside humans.

B (8:03)

Oh, my God.

A (8:04)

Typically, these D strand messages would be inside creatures yeah. Dr. Nu was like, no, no, no,

B (8:10)

no, no, no, no, no.

A (8:12)

I watched that one episode of Full Metal Alchemist. I know what I can do here. We're going to implant this inside a human. And Dr. Nuo pulled it off. Wild stuff.

B (8:22)

Yeah, yeah. He saw bats. He saw. He was like, listen, it can't be that much more complicated. Give me a. Give me a hammer and a knife. I'll figure it. I'll figure something out.

A (8:33)

Right. Right. Now, we did take a quick glance at the D Strand entry in the Dune Encyclopedia to sort of cross reference. Dr. Nuo is mentioned in that entry as well in the encyclopedia. And the little blurb about him basically explains that Dr. Nuo's research was, quote, performed under the patronage of the Landsraad high council in 10,179. End quote.

B (8:59)

Okay.

A (9:00)

And that's actually kind of it. It doesn't explicitly state in that entry that Dr. Nuo was a Tleilaxu or was working for the Tleilaxu, which, you know, you could read as just sort of an editorial oversight.

B (9:14)

Sure, yeah.

A (9:15)

When Willis E. McNelly was putting together the encyclopedia alongside his many collaborators. Or you could put your tin foil hat on and say, wait a second, this is cool. How many other secret assets of the Tleilaxu were out here getting Landsraad High Council funding for their gross experiments?

B (9:39)

Yeah, I mean, that's for sure. That's kind of where my mind went. Because we know face dancers are out there. If you look at the Face Dancer entry, it's, you know, established extended canon that face Dancers are the spies and the infiltrators for Tleilax. And they're active for thousands of years. Yeah, I like that a lot. I think that's really cool. And especially for these one off characters like Garak. Like Dr. Garak. Yeah, why not?

A (10:09)

Fuck it.

B (10:10)

Cool. You know, I dig it.

A (10:12)

Yeah.

B (10:12)

Now, the fact that we even have names for Scytale's parent donors is notable, so you might say. Yeah, son of, what was it? The Minister for Foreign Trade and this prominent doctor who's inventing. That's cool. But the fact that we even know who they are is remarkable. Right?

A (10:34)

Yeah.

B (10:35)

Every Face dancer is conceived in vitro. Right. We're talking test tubes, we're talking axolotl tanks. This is not the traditional means of reproducing because again, face dancers are these kind of sterile servant class for the Tleilax and for most Tleilaxu. We learn from this entry that the parents are simply written in the records as donors, rather than marking their names or their roles or their identities. So literally, most Face dancers, you'd be like, who is their parents? Who are their parents? And you'd say, oh, we just have donors in the notes. That's all that matters. Right?

A (11:19)

Yeah. Donor number, ID number, you know, 7432. It doesn't matter who your parents were.

B (11:25)

Right, Exactly. Now, Scytale belongs to a very small select crew. And the Dune Encyclopedia explains, quote, the products of stock that had demonstrated not only the physical qualities desired, but also creative intelligence of a high order. Scytale was one such. End quote. So to be clear, Scytale, we joked about him being a Nepo baby earlier. Yeah, yeah. He was born and bred for greatness. Right. This is not a nobody from a small town who became an Olympic gold medalist. This is someone who was selected even before he was born to be great.

A (12:06)

Yes. He was given the best genetics and clearly was important enough for his parents to be in the records, you know? Yeah, he was part of that batch. A Dune Encyclopedia made it sound like there's yearly sort of batches of dancers that are created and he is part of the sort of the cream of the crop batch. You know, he's like, oh, these, these are the S tier students. Yeah, we, we're going to keep an eye on and that we're going to make sure we elevate because we've given them every advantage that we can in life.

B (12:39)

Yeah, we're talking like the Johnnie Walker reserve barrel, small batch, you know, oak barrels aged for 15 years with the cherry smoke, you know, there, this is, this is their quality. Top shelf product. Right? That's Scytel.

A (12:55)

Yes.

B (12:56)

Now, definitely, despite this quality, there is still about a 30 year gap in our records around Scytale's life. The Dune Encyclopedia kind of skims over this chunk of time, from his birth in 10,160 until 10,197 is a relative unknown. That being said, we do know generally what the Face Dancers do for Tleilax. Right. Scytale might be a cream of the crop, but he's still performing the functions of a face dancer for Planet Flalac. So borrowing a little bit from the Dune Encyclopedia entry around that topic, quote, the Face Dancers were the most competent intelligence gathering network the Imperium ever endured, end quote. So again, we're talking infiltration, information gathering, maybe some assassinations, all of the things that make Face Dancers the valuable product they are for Planet Tleilax. We can Very easily imagine. That's what Scytale's up to for these 30 years.

A (14:02)

Yes.

B (14:02)

Right.

A (14:03)

Now, jumping ahead past this 30 year gap, the first notable mention of Scytale in the histories, according to the Dune Encyclopedia, takes place in 10197 AG, which is four years after Paul's rise to power. Four years after the end of the first book.

B (14:26)

Right.

A (14:26)

We're told that Scytale aided in something called the Nicodemus Affair. And that's it, folks. There's no other reference to the Nicodemus Affair in any of the six Dune books by Frank or Bert or anywhere else in the Dune Encyclopedia. This never comes up again. Yeah, I mean, at first I was annoyed. I was like, oh, my God, what is this? But then I was like, ooh, what is this? This is ripe territory for, like, fan theories, right?

B (14:58)

Yeah. The duality of a fan.

A (15:00)

Like, what could the Nicodemus Affair be? And what was Scytale's critical role in it? Yeah, dude, it's fun to imagine.

B (15:09)

Yeah. I'm just saying. I'm just saying, if we ever do, like a Gam Jabbar Dune Encyclopedia extension book, you know, like some original entries, that sort of thing, Nicodemus Affair has to be on the list. That sounds so fucking cool.

A (15:24)

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. What could it have been that's gonna haunt me for a long time? Either way, Scytale played such a critical role that he was given what sounds to me based off of this encyclopedia entry, kind of reading between the lines, he was given an incredible honor for a face dancer. He got to meet his parents.

B (15:50)

Oh, my God.

A (15:51)

The entry explains that this was, quote, the equivalent of legal adoption.

B (15:57)

Whoa.

A (15:58)

And he was awarded the patronymic and metronomic of the Tleilax elite.

B (16:03)

Whoa. Damn. All right.

A (16:05)

So my understanding of that is that he not only got to meet his parents, but that he was allowed to then take his parents names.

B (16:15)

Yeah.

A (16:16)

Or like, officially, legally.

B (16:18)

Yeah. Fucking something. I am not good at Latin. That sounds right to me. Sure.

A (16:25)

Yeah. I mean, this does sound incredible, you know, this sounds like a thing that 99% of face dancers will never get to do.

B (16:33)

True. Yeah.

A (16:34)

And whatever the Nicodemus Affair was, Scytale's performance was so incredible and so critical to whatever the Tleilaxu goals were during that affair that he was given this high honor. And I'm sure this meant a lot for Scytale. This feels like a sort of pivotal moment for him in his life to be given this honor, to be able to take his Parents, names to meet them.

B (16:59)

Yeah.

A (16:59)

That's wild.

B (17:01)

Yeah. I wonder if they played that, like, as he, like, walks across the stage, he, like, shakes the hand of the dean of the Tleilaxu school and his dad's there, and he's like, hello, son. And he's like, thanks, dad.

A (17:17)

Yep, Yep. That's exactly how it happened.

B (17:22)

Prime Canon and Frank wrote and they played the graduation song, whatever it's called. Yeah. No, joking aside. Sounds incredible and really demonstrates why someone like Scytale would end up being given this incredibly important task. Right. Like, yes, they have this problem. The entire galactic power structure has been upheaved by some fucking pasty kid from a backwater planet, and we need someone to help take care of him. Right. Huge stakes. Who do we send? Well, there is a kind of can do no wrong James Bond, like, person. Have you fucking heard about what he did at the Nicodemus Affair? I did not. There's no information about it, but apparently it's incredible. So, yeah, this is why Scytale is the one who's sent on this incredibly important mission. And I just think that's so cool, because I think when I first read Dune Messiah, you get Scytale, you go, yeah, sure. Scytale, Edric. These are just kind of the characters we happen to be with. No, no, no. Scytale is, like, the best of the best. Sent by Tleilax to do the thing that needs to be done because he's the one who can do it. It's very cool. Changes my perspective already from just. From just what we've read today. Changes my perspective on Scytale quite a bit.

A (18:51)

Yeah, no, completely. I mean, it's easy to overlook a lot of the conspirators in Dune Messiah as just, like, fun new characters. And you and I rag on Edric all the time, but these folks weren't brought into the conspiracy because they were losers.

B (19:08)

Right, right, right.

A (19:09)

This is a conspiracy to take down the emperor of the known universe who's also oppressing it. Demigod.

B (19:17)

Like, yeah.

A (19:19)

You're not gonna just pick up any Joe Schmo off the street and start conspiring with him. So it is fun to sort of sit back and recognize that. No, I mean, like, Scytale is maybe the best of the best face dancers to ever exist, at least up to this point in the Dune timeline.

B (19:38)

Yeah, it's very, very cool to give him his credit where credit is clearly due and far too late.

A (19:45)

Yeah. And there's a little detail later in the episode. We'll touch on during his captivity. That kind of reinforces this point that he was maybe the best of the best out there.

B (19:54)

So good. Okay, we are going to talk about now the events of Dune Messiah, but we're going to take a quick break. Don't go anywhere. When we're back, we're getting into the events of Dune Messiah and if you ignored our spoiler warning earlier, this is the point at which you should for sure stop listening. Because we are going to talk about what happens in Frank Herbert's second book just after this break. Don't go anywhere unless you need to go somewhere because you didn't read the book. You get what I'm saying? We'll be right back.

D (20:30)

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A (21:30)

welcome back, folks. All right, now that we have talked about what we know, what little we know of Sidetale's early life, let's talk about the events of Dune Messiah. Because this is where Sidetale really takes center stage in the Dune universe and in Frank Herbert's stories. And instead of rehashing the events of Dune Messiah, we assume that you've read it. We're not going to go through the whole story again and rehash details. What we're instead going to do is touch on a couple of key points, and these are points that the Dune Encyclopedia touches on as well. And consider these moments in the story through a scytale focused lens. And as always, the Encyclopedia is really excellent at doing this and sort of filling in the gaps of what might have been happening off the page that Frank Herbert didn't write about. And so we're going to color in the lines here a little Bit about Scytale's journey in Dune Messiah.

B (22:23)

Yeah.

A (22:24)

So, to start, let's focus on Scytale's piece of the puzzle as a part of this conspiracy. The Dune Encyclopedia points out that Scytale actually would have died during the events of Dune Messiah if it were not for a series of coincidences, frankly. So, just to refresh everyone's memory, Scythale's piece of the conspiracy was essentially to impersonate Lycna, Othaim's daughter, and essentially convince Paul and Chani to come out and meet Othaim, where Chani would then be murdered. And this is where the Tleilaxu, again, through Scytel as their operative, would offer a grieving and distraught Paul Atreides, a ghola of his lover. Hey, Chani's dead. We can bring her back for you as long as you cut us in on a deal. That was sort of the Tleilaxu plot. That was Scytale's mission here, as we know. Of course, that's not what happens. Instead, a giant fucking Stone burger goes off.

B (23:36)

Right, right, right.

A (23:36)

Johnny never goes out to meet Othaim. And in fact, Scytel is detained by Paul's guards because Paul almost immediately sees right fucking through his disguise.

B (23:48)

Yeah, yeah.

A (23:49)

Because again, as I said earlier, prescient demigod ball Atreides, Messiah of the Fremen people, with unprecedented powers and abilities. He's not going to be easy to trick, even for the best face dancer out there. So if things had actually gone to plan and Paul and Chani had gone out to Othaim, Scytale likely would have died in the Stone Burner explosion. The Encyclopedia points out that the Stone Burner was almost certainly a betrayal of the Tleilaxu and the Bene Gesserit. It was probably the Spacing Guild and the Kizarate ganging up and saying, fuck the Bene Gesserit and the Tleilaxu just set off the bomb. Here's a quote from the Encyclopedia. Quote you using the device served the ends of neither the Bene Gesserit, who needed to preserve the Atreides genes for their breeding program, nor the Tleilaxu who could not regenerate Chani from radioactive ash.

B (24:49)

End quote. My God.

A (24:51)

So the Stone Burner plot had nothing to do with what Scytail was trying to achieve or what the Bene Gesserit were trying to achieve. This was clearly some sort of secondary or tertiary plot taking place, most likely by the Spacing Guild in the Kizarate.

B (25:07)

Okay, couple of things. First, What a fucking way to put it. You can't regenerate a golem from radioactive ash. Is fucking crazy.

A (25:15)

Makes sense.

B (25:16)

But also, I will admit this did not occur to me because I more or less like, once Lycna Scytale is detained, I forgot that Scytale existed until that final scene with him. So I was like. I just didn't even put two and two together. That if Scytale had gone with Paul the way Scytale was literally saying as Likena. All right, Paul, you, me and Chani need to go to Othaim's house.

A (25:42)

Right.

B (25:42)

For sure. Scytale would have been caught off guard by the stone burner.

A (25:46)

Yes. He would have been cooked. Like, literally.

B (25:50)

Yeah. Chat. Is he cooked? I think he's fucking chopped. Unk. Like, that's crazy. I just didn't put that together at all. So I think that's already very cool. I also really like the idea. I think we see Scytale playing the role of Lykna, and Paul immediately clocks. I went back to the scene, and it's funny because Paul's like, man, this guy's good. Like, he's really. He's clearly studied her. He's clearly quite good at what he's doing. But obviously it's not. It's not like. And when I read that, I saw this as a condemnation of the Tleilaxu, that they are like, they're just kind of bad and bumbling. But I think knowing Scytale's capabilities and even hearing that one of Scytale's parents is this, like, established doctor, this celebrated person out in the galactic scene. Yeah. It almost makes it that much more impressive that Paul just immediately clocks him and. And also shows them how outclassed they were trying to go up against this omni, like, present omniscient demigod of a. Of a Kwisatz Haderach. So I don't know. I think I had also fully underestimated how important Scytale is. So learning that he is like the James Bond of the Tleilax really demonstrates how out of their depth they were trying to conspire against Paul.

A (27:15)

Yes. Yeah. How hopelessly hopeful these conspirators were and were genuinely underestimating Paul Atreides and, you know, frankly underestimating prescient abilities that had never existed in mankind before.

B (27:30)

I mean, you can't blame them.

A (27:31)

That's for sure. Yeah, can't blame them. Yeah. So, of course, as we know from the story Scytale here ends up in captivity rather than getting toasted by the stone burner. And so now he has to improvise. He has to call an audible. The plan has totally gone awry, and he's got to cook something new up.

B (27:52)

Yeah. So this is where especially the Dune Encyclopedia is really adding to my personal reading of Dune Messiah, because I, again, basically forgot that Scytale existed when he was detained by Paul's guards until toward the end of the book. And the Dune Encyclopedia has this to say about his imprisonment through the next seven months. Gave him plenty of time, but it must be remembered that he maintained his disguise as Lycna through that whole period.

A (28:25)

Oh, my God.

B (28:27)

This was an astonishing physical feat. The equivalent, say, of running a distance race every day, week after week, month after month. End quote.

A (28:40)

Wow.

B (28:41)

Crazy. Fucking wild.

A (28:44)

The stamina on this guy.

B (28:45)

The stamina. The incomprehensible stamina. This is where going back and listening to our Face Dancer episode is so useful, because this is not magic. They are, like, flexing shit to change the shape of their body. This is muscular control. This is skeletal movements. This is a performance on an almost cellular level.

A (29:08)

Yeah.

B (29:08)

And he's doing this for months. That's crazy. And I never thought about that. That's incredible.

A (29:17)

It is. It's a wild achievement. And I think this sort of reinforces what we were saying earlier. Scythale isn't just your everyday face dancer off the street. He did something awesome in the Nicodemus Affair. Don't ask us what. And, yeah, he has proven himself to be one of the best face dancers out there. So I think this is when the magic of the Encyclopedia always kind of hits for me, is when it reshapes and helps me reinterpret the original stories. And certainly, like, gosh, next time I revisit Tune Messiah, I'm maybe going to have a bit more respect for our guy.

B (29:55)

Yeah, no kidding. I mean, I'm right there with you, dude. Now, I really want to revisit Messiah because, yeah, every scene we're watching Scytale be some character or be like. Or be the attendant for Edric. It's like, I'm going to be thinking about, this is the best of the best. And I'm going to think about how he has this reserve of stamina. So cool. I love it. Now, there's also another choice of phrasing in the Dune Encyclopedia that I personally found super notable here, which is regarding. As Scytale was in captivity, he was thinking about hate the ghola Being reawakened by Beejaz, compelling him to kill Paul. Right. Like that whole subset of the plot. Here's how the Dune Encyclopedia says it. And then I want to take a step back and look at why I think this is so notable. Quote, if, as he believed, the tension in Idaho would bring him to memory of his pre Gola existence, then he could offer a more precious Chani to Paul. One fully aware of her earlier existence and possessed of the fullness of her personality. End quote. So just on a surface level, right, this is about the bargaining chip that is Chani's wife. And Scytale believes that an awakened Goa, Chani, with memory of her time falling in love with Paul, is going to be endlessly more valuable to Paul and much more. Much more kind of attractive to Paul. Sure, whatever. I mean, ultimately that ends up being off the mark, but it doesn't matter. The thing is, when Duncan is awakened and his memory, his Gola life gives way to his original memories. This is a moment in Tleilaxu history that goes down in the books. Like, this is an unprecedented scientific feat that was an experiment. They did not know this was going to happen. And I want to point out that the wording of the Dune Encyclopedia is if, as he believed, so Scytale believed it would happen. And he fucking called it. I just think that's so cool. Cause that adds a degree of like, he seems like a planner. He seems like someone who's got six different plans no matter how things go.

A (32:19)

Definitely.

B (32:20)

But he believed that it would work, and it did. And the fact that it did work is already kind of miraculous and incredible. But the fact that he also believed it was gonna work, I think I'm like, damn, this dude's the goat. This guy's great. He's so good.

A (32:33)

Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting line. It stood out to me as well. But for me, it raised a. Some questions, actually, you know, because the rest of the encyclopedia entry, and no part in Dune Messiah ever hints at or reinforces why Scytale would think this, though. Is he part of the Gola program? Like, was he a lab assistant or something? And so he knows Gola physiology and has theories on it, Maybe crackpot theories that no one else believes in. Like, we. We know he has the science connection through one of his parents, right? The legendary Dr. Nuo.

B (33:12)

Yeah, true.

A (33:12)

So perhaps there's some sort of scientific upbringing that would imply that Site Hill would have scientific knowledge of Golas and potentially have this theory about memories coming back.

B (33:23)

Yeah, yeah.

A (33:24)

But that feels to me like a very loose and tenuous thread that isn't very clearly defined. So I wanted more from this line, actually, because I agree, like, it's an impactful thing to say. It's like saying, like, oh, yeah, I knew Pearl harbor was going to happen in 1922. And you're like, how, though?

B (33:43)

What?

A (33:44)

Yeah, like, you can't just say that without explaining yourself. And this feels like a sentence that was said without explaining itself or without setting it up properly. And I, like, much like the Nicodemus Affair, like, I want more. I wanted more from this entire site tale entry. I. I wish it was way more fleshed out.

B (34:00)

Yeah, I know. I completely agree there. And there is absolutely room to maybe talk about. Yeah. When he was given the legal. We'll see later. He clearly has some sort of proximity to his parents now. Yeah. Maybe his parent who invented a surgical procedure on humans. Maybe this is where Scytale is above the average face dancer in his scientific knowledge, in his expectations of these things.

A (34:30)

Yeah.

B (34:30)

But I also just, you know, I think looking back at the scene, he does accept it very quickly, which we talk about, like, in the grand scheme of Tleilaxu history, it is an unbelievably important moment.

A (34:44)

Yeah. I mean, it unlocks immortality literally for them.

B (34:48)

Yeah. Yeah, it does. And he's like, hey, splendid, great. You know, and not like, falling to the ground weeping. I hear you. And I think you're right. I think there's. There's room to expand on this. And just like the Nicodemus Affair, I think this is another thread it would be fun to explore more. Like if there was an entry about Scytale's scientific body of knowledge or something like that. That could be very cool.

A (35:13)

Well, maybe someday for our Dune Encyclopedia 2.0.

B (35:17)

Yeah, maybe someday.

A (35:21)

All right, well, we are rapidly approaching the end of Scytale's life here, so a couple more details we want to point out from the encyclopedia that we think are quite interesting, actually. As we all know, at the end of Messiah, Scytale has to adapt once again. And he shows that he is one of the best face dancers by brilliantly coming up with a new plan on the spot. He makes this desperate pitch to Paul Atreides after Chani dies in childbirth. Hey, man, we'll bring back Chani. Yeah, just like Duncan Idaho, memories and all. Look, we unlocked the key.

B (35:57)

Yeah.

A (35:57)

So let's. Let's make that deal. Do you want your beloved back exactly how she was? It's not even going to be A Gola. It's just going to be her. But of course we know Paul does not agree to this deal. And in fact, Paul ends Scytale's life here in this scene with some incredible Goku Gohan, father, son, prescient knife throwing action. And thus ends the life of Scytale tragically working to his last day, much like every millennial will be doing. He was out here on the job scheming and trying to do his best for the Tleilaxu and their schemes as one of the best face dancers out in the field. And ultimately he died with a knife to the throat or the chest or wherever it was.

B (36:42)

Yeah, in the face somewhere. Yeah, he was innovating for that shareholder value for sure. Until that knife to his last breath. I mean, the CEO's dream employee, am I right? Yeah.

A (36:57)

Oh, my gosh. Sidetale employee of the month every month, 20 years running.

B (37:01)

He was working for seven months in that prison cell. Never, never put in a request for overtime.

A (37:09)

Right. Seven months. Did never, never ask for overtime. It was just on the job. So the encyclopedia does give us some really interesting tidbits about the immediate aftermath of Scytale's death. We're told that Scytel's body actually disintegrated pretty rapidly after his death. Because face dancers have like a fail safe built into them. When their central nervous system shuts down, this powerful enzyme is released that quickly breaks the body down. And this is essentially like a self destruct button that stops other people out there who aren't Tleilax, who from capturing a face dancer and, you know, doing an autopsy, dissecting the body, and learning the secrets of the face dancer technology and biology. I thought that was an interesting detail.

B (37:57)

Yeah, interesting.

A (37:58)

They love hiding little minefields, biological minefields, inside their creations, you know?

B (38:03)

Yeah, totally.

A (38:04)

Now, the encyclopedia goes on to tell us that the Tleilaxu embassy on Arrakis was given a container of water extracted from Scytale's remains. What remains could be recovered. Water was extracted from them in classic Fremen fashion. Except the Fremen threw in one little insult. They put a dash of chemical like food coloring in the water, and the water just like constantly changed color instead of being clear. And this was clearly some sort of like, cultural middle finger from the Fremen when they gave, oh my gosh, Scytale's remains back to the Tleilaxu. Because remember, this is a person who tried to conspire against and ultimately assassinate their messiah. They aren't Going to be particularly happy.

B (38:55)

Yeah. I mean, very true. That also seems so interestingly petty for the friend.

A (39:02)

I know. Yeah. Right.

B (39:03)

They just. Just have a handful of color, like food color changing crystals that they toss in. That's so wild.

A (39:13)

Yeah. But I. I found it a very interesting small, like, cultural world building note. Something about, like, maybe within Fremen culture there's some sort. Some like, superstitions or like, soft beliefs that a clear soul produces clear water extracted from the body. And so then to contaminate water with this, like, food coloring to make it not clear and to change color could be like. Yeah, this, this indicates somebody who we thought was an awful person without a clear conscience and a clear soul on their death. That. That was my read of it, at least.

B (39:52)

Yeah, I love that. I mean, that's. That's beautiful. Yeah. The idea of, like, clear water and then clear conscious. That's great.

A (39:58)

Yeah. So in addition to the container thing with the food coloring, there's another, like, one sentence, almost like throwaway line here that I found interesting. Like, there's so much to mine here and theorize about, but the encyclopedia says that the death of their son and the shame of his passing hit his parents really hard. Interestingly enough, we're told that his mother died by suicide shortly thereafter and that his father completely retreated from public life. Foreign minister of the Tleilaxu retired, disappeared completely from public life.

B (40:37)

Wow.

A (40:37)

And I don't know. I don't know what to think of that. Like, why? I guess is my question. You know, I feel like there's so much untold here about the relationship between Scytel and his parents in this encyclopedia. We almost have to read between the lines.

B (40:51)

Maybe. I mean, I saw it more simply as Scytale was the best of the best, but he was still a slave to the Tleilaxu masters. And he was given a job, a job to do, and he failed. And it was the most important job. This is like the Kwisatz Haderach putting him under the Tleilax who thumb is like, priority number one. Yeah. Scytale is the only one we trust to do it, but we do trust him to do it. We've given him every opportunity and he fucking failed.

A (41:24)

Yeah.

B (41:25)

You're telling me. He got a knife to the face and then they go, maybe your genetics aren't what we thought they were. Mr. And Mrs. Scytale Senior, you know, so I do think, like.

A (41:37)

Right, right.

B (41:38)

Even if these are notable, valuable, impressive, historic Tleilax who face dancers, they are Still Tleilax who Face Dancers. Right. These are still the mules, the disposable. So I'm like, you know, maybe more akin to like the warrior class in like feudal Japan where if you insult your lord the wrong way, you're expected to take your life. Maybe there's something there where that's. Because your life's worth is more tied to what you're doing and what you're capable of doing. And if you've demonstrated that the byproduct of what you've done, you donated to this year's crop failed, then what are you even going to do?

A (42:19)

Yeah, sort of bringing shame to the family.

B (42:21)

Right. So I. That's kind of how I interpreted it.

A (42:24)

That makes a lot of sense actually.

B (42:25)

But at the end of the day, again, it is somewhat big.

A (42:29)

Yeah.

B (42:29)

Now this is also where we get to talk as we wrap up about Scytale's legacy living on. And the encyclopedia says that for many years afterward, the initiation ritual of the Face Dancers actually involved an oath sworn on the container holding Scytale's water. A somewhat on the nose reminder of the shame dealt to them by the Fremen and the Atreides and you know, maybe even a little bit of Scytale's failure. Right. Like, don't be like this fucking guy. Look at who, how we were defeated. This is how we're gonna get back on the universe.

A (43:04)

Yeah. Like how later in the books the Bene Gesserit referred to the Jessica crime. I wonder if Face Dancers are thus trained to be like, look, you could be this very brightly neon colored water in this container. If you fuck up, don't commit the scytel crime. Be better.

B (43:22)

Look how, look how fucking stupid he looks. Oh yeah, he's pink now. Oh, now he's red. Whoa. Good job. Site tale. You turned blue, idiot. He's dead. Don't be like him. Yeah. I mean, at the very least we know the Playlax, who are clearly divas who just love to have a chip on their shoulder. They love to carry a grudge, they love to just write it down and then look at it every morning before they go and do the call of the Abdul. And you know, the Mahdi gets on his platform and he goes, fucking scytail die. You know, and every for thousands of years. And yeah, that's their mo. Good to see they're consistent. And interestingly, I thought this was also very cool for a time. Apparently the name Scytale became the generic term for a face Dancer akin to how we Use, like, Kleenex for a tissue. Right?

A (44:21)

Yeah. Yeah.

B (44:22)

And that's kind of interesting. Do you recall, is this among the Tleilaxu or for, like, other people in the Imperium? Do you remember?

A (44:30)

It doesn't clarify that in the encyclopedia.

B (44:33)

Yeah, it's not clear. But I think actually based on the way it's saying and the way that it's tying it to Gaelic, the language of the broader Imperium, I understand this to be, like, Scytale was such a notable face dancer in the Imperial history that he became the sort of Kleenex, like, brand name for face dancers for the Tleilaxu as addressed by other people. I think that's really interesting.

A (45:01)

Yeah.

B (45:02)

Because, again, it shows us the outsized impact that Scytale had, this one guy, this one fella had on the entire Imperium.

A (45:11)

Yeah.

B (45:12)

Well, at the end of the day, I think we can all appreciate that Scytale really did exemplify the best of what it means to be a face dancer in Tleilaxu society until maybe he died and was turned into rainbow water. So much so that his story, his legacy, it is remembered in this way. And as we talk about him today, we have newfound respect for this person, for this character who, although they failed, they accomplished a lot more than basically any other face dancer could have. Right, Right.

A (45:47)

Yeah, completely. And that's the life of Scytale, folks.

B (45:51)

Yeah, that's it.

A (45:52)

That is the life of Scytale all the way from his early beginnings to his spectacular death at the hand of Emperor Paul Atreides at the end of Dune Messiah. Before we wrap up, we wanted to do a little rapid fire sort of Q and A section here just to talk through some of our thoughts on Scytale in Dune Part 3, the upcoming film. Because, as we said earlier, we got a glimpse of him. We know that Robert Pattinson will be playing Scytale in the film, and there's a lot of fun speculating and theorizing to be done because we, frankly know so little about what his role will be beyond the assumptions that we can make from the book. But it's unclear how much of the book will be translated, how much of Scytel's story from the book will be translated into the film. So let's. Let's knock out some quick Q and A questions here, and we can each share our thoughts on it. To start off, Leo, I wanted to ask you.

B (46:49)

Yeah.

A (46:50)

What do you think of Pattinson's look as Scytail in the movie? He's got this like pale skin, that cropped hair, the bleached brows. Is this how you imagine Sideshow when you were reading the book?

B (47:02)

You know, this is hard because I think face dancers, the Tleilaxu masters that we meet in the later books, give us a little bit more physical descriptions of face dancers. I cannot recall what exactly I was picturing when I first read Dune Messiah. I picture face dancers with gray skin.

A (47:20)

Yeah.

B (47:21)

And I do not recall any of his characters that he's playing because again, he's always choosing an appearance in the book. So in the book he's always going to look like probably just a person, just a random. In the first chapter with the conspirators, he's a blocky, stupid looking person. And then he's a big, strong looking person when he first meets Paul. But in each of those instances, I don't think they look like Robert Pattinson. So even having a default look for Scytale, which isn't a gray skinned Tleilaxu, is kind of new for me. But I'll also say I think he looked great in the couple of scenes we've seen of him. I think it looks. He looks like he has that kind of like sharp wit. And I know that Pattinson has brought some really interesting layers to performances in the past. I think that idea of the stoic character with the sort of laughing eyes and the sort of taunting intelligence behind maybe the dull outward behavior, I think that is something that's within his wheelhouse. So I think he looks great so far.

A (48:29)

Yeah.

B (48:30)

What about you?

A (48:30)

I agree. I also imagined the Tleilax who is a little bit shorter. I mean, Robin Pattinson is like a tall guy. He's definitely six foot something. I imagine them shorter. I also imagine them gray skinned. I think they're explicitly described as gray skins by Frank Herbert.

B (48:46)

Yeah.

A (48:47)

Or grayish skin by Frank Herbert in the books. And they. I think they're also described as having like sort of sharp teeth. So, you know, they're kind of described as like typically evil, like orcs kind of. Not like such. But, you know, I've never been too attached to that description. Like, I like that Denis Villeneuve is reinterpreting it and that Robert Pattinson is taking on this role in this look for Scytale. I think the sort of like classically villainous, like short, sharp teeth villains is not exactly how I wanted the Talalaxu to make their first appearance on screen anyway. So I'm a fan. I like the look. I'm excited to see how Robert Pattinson embraces it.

B (49:33)

Yeah, I. I think that's. That's spot on. Having him be like a Gollum type from, like, Lord of the Rings. Not very compelling now. Yeah, there's an interesting quote you pulled from Robert Pattinson about his character in the film, which is really interesting. And I want to read this out. He's an unusual character in the book. You can't really tell whose side he's on. That's kind of what makes him quite interesting. I wouldn't say he was a kind of conventional bad guy as such. I don't think he is. He might even be a good guy. Who knows? I will also find out when I see the film. But, yeah, it's an extremely fun character to play and the look for it is quite incredible. Extraordinary. End quote. So setting aside the fact that Robert Pattinson fucking talks out of his ass all the time and, like, lies all the time constantly, just gives pure nonsense. Do not exist. What do you think he means by this? The idea that Scytale is a good guy? Do you think there is a world in which the movie interprets the character and makes him maybe a little bit more of a positive light? Anything we learned today that might change your mind a little bit or maybe is in the character originally. What do you think is Robert Pattinson?

A (50:57)

Gosh, I don't.

B (50:58)

Bullshitting again.

A (50:59)

Yes. My first instinct here is to be like, this is just Robert Pattinson bullshitting again. Just saying words in a random stream of sentences. He's like a bad LLM, you know, he's like an LLM that's been trained badly to string words together. And so he just, like, says things that, like, might sound logical if you're reading it quickly, but then you actually read it. You're like, none of that makes sense.

B (51:21)

What the fuck do you mean?

A (51:22)

Yeah, yeah, that's my first instinct. Hilarious that he's also. He's like, I guess I'll find out what my character does when I see the movie. Like, it almost feels like he doesn't know what he signed up for, which I'm sure is not true, but I don't know. I think so. Like, my sort of take on Scytale is. I do think he's going to be positioned in the role of a. Of the antagonist of Dune Messiah. Like, I wouldn't be surprised if he is also positioned in, like, the role of key conspirator. Like, maybe this whole plot to assassinate Paul is like, his baby. It's his thing. I do think his role will be expanded. And so I think that does also offer opportunities to make him a little more likable, to give him a motivation beyond just kill the hero. Right. And so maybe that is what Robert Pattinson is hinting at, is like, he's not your conventional cackling villain bad guy who just wants to kill Paul for no reason. Perhaps if his role, like I'm theorizing, is greatly expanded, perhaps we also are expanding on some of his personal motivations and some of the personal stakes for Scytale. But that remains to be seen. That sort of entirely is based off of my assumption that his role will be greatly expanded beyond what is in the books because we don't have much personal motivation and personal stakes for Scytel in the books beyond just completing his mission for the Tleilaxu. What do you think?

B (52:52)

Yeah, it's interesting because for this episode, I went back to some of Scytel's paragraphs and some of the chapters with him in Messiah. And Paul does mention that the amount, the attention to detail that Scytale had for Likena and his performance as Likena almost implied a warmth for her, like a care for her that, like, Scytale needed to care about Likena to do a good job of impersonating her. Right. And there are those elements where Scytale is thinking about how it's. And again, this might have to do with the Islam Ayat and the belief system of the Tleilaxu, but that they require leaving a way out for people. Right. Like the trap for Paul.

A (53:37)

Right.

B (53:38)

Needed him to have a. Have the option to get out or not. So I do think the correct read of Scytale is not some cackling Batman villain, but is instead someone who has his orders but is fulfilling them in a way that doesn't, like, besmirch the memory of the people he's forced to kill. Right. In the chapter with Faroak, Scytale's internal thoughts are really, like, they're reverent. He's looking at this old Fremen warrior going, my God, he's seen so much. He's been to these faraway places. And there's a real respect and reverence for Farrokh. So I really, I like Scytale a lot. And I love how fucking bumbling and shitty Edric is and how petty and, like, full of herself Mohiam is and how really, frankly, incapable Irulan is compared to, you know, everyone else. And then Scytale, the one who is ultimately the Most capable and the most dangerous, but not necessarily the most evil. And I think that is what is so interesting about his character. So I like where Robert Pattinson's answer is, but I do think he's fully bullshitting.

A (54:54)

Yes. Yes.

B (54:55)

The fact of him being, like, who knows? Maybe he's the good guy, maybe he's the hero. Maybe he and Paul sleep together. I don't know. We'll have to see the movie. I'm Robert Pattinson, so,

A (55:08)

I mean, it's working. It's a great press strategy because it makes me want to see the movie more than I already did.

B (55:13)

My God, did they add a sex scene? That sounds incredible.

A (55:18)

I love Robert Benson.

B (55:20)

Oh, he's great. He's so good.

A (55:22)

Okay, well, we've already sort of touched on our theories, but to explicitly lay them out a little bit more. Next question here for us. How do you think Scytale's role will change in the movie?

B (55:32)

Yeah, it's interesting because, again, I hadn't necessarily pieced together that Scytale in the book was betrayed by his conspirators, by the Spacing Guild, and with the Stone Burner, like that was also a betrayal of Scytale. So I wonder, because if we don't have Beejaz, if we don't have the Spacing Guild as present, maybe we have Edric. Right. Maybe that sarcophagus is Edric. And then Scytale is positioned as the sort of, like, I think he is going to be the final hurdle that Paul has to overcome. Like, that's really how the adaptation of Dune Messiah has to go.

A (56:08)

Yeah.

B (56:08)

So I do think he's going to be sort of, if we were to put it in overly simplistic terms, the main antagonist. But maybe Denis will choose to go a little bit more. He's the lurking silent assassin that we're kind of. We have a bad feeling in our stomach whenever he's on screen, and that's how it's going to be. That maybe makes the most sense from a. We have to tell this story in three hours. You know, maybe that's where my head's at. I would like him to be more subtle, like I was talking about. But we only have so much time with him on screen in the runtime of the movie, so I could see it being a little bit simpler. What about you? Do you think. Do you think he's going to simplify him to be a little bit more. The. More the villain?

A (56:49)

Yeah, I think so. I think the conspiracy itself will have to be a little bit Streamlined. It's very dense and interwoven and complicated in the book. And you obviously have to read between the lines in many scenes in the book. And there's betrayals of betrayals of betrayal. Even the conspirators are working against each other. And I trust that Villeneuve will keep some of that intrigue intact. But for a film and a two and a half hour story on screen, we do need a primary antagonist.

B (57:23)

True.

A (57:23)

The Baron played that in Dune Part 1. Feyd Rautha played that role beautifully in Dune Part 2. And I do think Pattinson and Scytale are being positioned to play that role in Dune Part 3. I do think his role will be expanded again. My theory is that he potentially will be one of the key conspirators who's kind of behind the engine behind all of this. It could be interesting to watch him get betrayed. Maybe. Maybe that is where we feel some of the sympathy for Scytale and where there's like a little bit of a personal twist in his own character arc in the story.

B (58:01)

Yeah.

A (58:01)

But I do think he will play a much more substantial role because in the book it's true. You know, he shows up as like, no, Paul kind of just like sees right through him right away. And then he's imprisoned and then we forget about him for many chapters until everyone goes to Sietch Tabura at the end and he kind of pops back up again. You know, I don't think that's how Pattinson will be used in this movie. That would feel like an under utilization of a great actor.

B (58:28)

Yeah, he's a very good actor to do that with him. And I think you're right. Like the second you said, will we watch Pattinson be betrayed by someone like, oh, that's a juicy moment for Robert Pattinson to really bring out the anger and the explosive. He could do a lot with that. That would be very cool, for sure.

A (58:50)

Yeah, I think so.

B (58:52)

So do you think we will. Another question here. Do you think we're going to see his face dancer abilities in action and how. So what do you think?

A (59:03)

Yeah, I do think we'll see them in action because his character poster shows like a dual faced Scytale. So I think we're very clearly leaning into the fact that he is a face dancer and that he has these shape shifting abilities. We mentioned this in our trailer breakdown, but I think it'll be quite subdued. I don't think we're gonna get some sort of like dramatic face melting moment where he totally changes shape. I think Villeneuve will perhaps approach it more subtly. I do wonder. I've read some theories online from folks shouts to friend of the pod nerd cookies Elaine, that perhaps every shot we've seen of Scytale in the trailer is him in disguise and only the audience sees Robert Pattinson. But then maybe the camera cuts and from Paul's perspective and everybody else in the room, it's like. Like it's someone else. You know, that could be cool. That's an interesting way and I think a very Denis Villeneuve restrained, minimalist, subtle way to show off some of the subterfuge from Scytale and his face dancer abilities that the audience. Only when we're close up with Scytale from his perspective, maybe we get a glimpse of him and then when the camera cuts wide or it cuts to Paul or something, he's talking to somebody else. And that makes it clear to the viewer that Scytale is in disguise. So I think we'll see it in subtle ways like that. What do you think?

B (60:31)

That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I am a huge fan of Shapeshifters in media. Like, I like the idea that you see an entire scene and you think that you kind of know what's going on and then you find out later that a character somewhere else and it wasn't that character, and you get to have that moment of like, oh, fuck, I was looking the wrong place. You know, I like that a lot. And I could see maybe we're introduced to him as someone who is someone else. And then he walks away from the crowd and changes form in front of us and we get to kind of see the, like, I don't know, shifting of features and stuff like that. But it's true that that really does lean uncharacteristically via fexi or even practical effect. Like, that just doesn't feel like Villeneuve's type. And doing something a little bit more perception wise feels right. That would be so cool. I'm convinced. I mean, I had my theories, but they're gone now. I'm just thinking like nerd cookies. And like, that sounds great. I think it's so good to have like a moment where it's like a flicker of Pattinson in that place, but then it's actually someone else standing there. And that would be so cool. That's great.

A (61:42)

It would be. It would be cool. It's fun to go back and rewatch the trailer assuming that every shot of Scytale we see is him in disguise, actually. And to reinterpret Some of those shots from the trailer, I think it'd be interesting.

B (61:55)

That's great. What a great idea.

A (61:57)

Okay, last question. And this perhaps is the most important question that we need to answer today.

B (62:01)

Yeah, sure.

A (62:02)

About this upcoming film, Leo, do you think at any point in the movie. The movie is rumored to be about two and a half hour runtime, give or take. Do you think at any point Robert Pattinson as Scytel will turn to the camera and say the phrase, it's face dancing time?

B (62:24)

Yes, yes, I do. Yes, I do think that that is. Yeah, yeah. It's actually at that moment he face dances to look like Jared Leto and he.

A (62:37)

Oh, my God. And Jared Leto says it's face dancing time.

B (62:41)

And Jared Leto says it's morbid time. But everyone hears it's face dancing time. Oh, my God. Plans within plans. Quotes within quotes.

A (62:51)

Truly quotes within quotes.

B (62:54)

Oh, my God. Ridiculous. That's so funny.

A (62:57)

How silly would that be? Oh, my God.

B (62:59)

Ego scytale power is activate. Everyone's. Whoa. You know. Oh, gosh. Going off the rails. Okay, dear listeners, before we let you go, we want to remind you of some ways to support what we do here at GOM Jabbar and some ways to keep in touch with us. And of course, first up, the two best ways, as always, one is to become a patron over at our Patreon. The other is to get some Dune themed swag from our merch store. Those links are in the show notes, of course. You can also just tell a friend about your favorite Dune podcast. We love that as well.

A (63:34)

That's right. And please reach out to us. Gojabarpodcastmail.com is a great place to write us. Send us your thoughts, send us your questions, and hell, send us your theories on what the fuck the Nicotemus affair was and what pivotal role Saito played in it.

B (63:52)

Oh, my God.

A (63:53)

Gmail.com.

B (63:56)

what would be an underwhelming thing? Like, it's like a, like, it was like a cook off. It was like a celebrity chef style imperial show. And he, he made like an incredible souffle and leadership was like, this is our guy.

A (64:10)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He had to infiltrate, like Top Chef.

B (64:15)

Yeah, Love island.

A (64:17)

And he infiltrated it as Chef Nicodemus, you know, and, oh my God, there was scandal, there was intrigue, but my God, the ratings for that season were off the charts.

B (64:28)

Yeah.

A (64:28)

And Sidetail, at the end of the day, came out on top with that amazing black bean chili recipe or whatever.

B (64:35)

Yeah. Perfect levels of spiciness. It was incredible. It was so good. Went perfectly with some tortilla chips. Oh, Chef's kiss.

A (64:42)

Gosh. Sidetail. A cook. Who knew?

B (64:47)

We gotta stop recording at mealtime.

A (64:51)

I know it's lunchtime. Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the the other shows on the lar party podcast network on laurparty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Lore Underscore Party. And of course, we are also on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path.