Stilgar ben Fifrawi (Part 2)

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast – Episode: Stilgar ben Fifrawi (Part 2) Summary

Release Date: July 18, 2025

Introduction

In the second installment of their in-depth exploration of Stilgar ben Fifrawi, hosts Abub and Leo continue to dissect the complexities of one of the most pivotal characters in Frank Herbert's Dune universe. This episode delves further into Stilgar's interactions with House Atreides, his role as a leader and father figure, and the profound transformations he undergoes throughout the first three books of the saga.

Stilgar’s Role and Leadership

Abub opens the discussion by highlighting Stilgar's evolution from a respected Fremen leader to a planetary governor and a key figure in the Imperium. The hosts emphasize Stilgar's multifaceted leadership qualities, portraying him as not just a formidable warrior but also a wise administrator and a shrewd political strategist.

Abub [10:32]: "Stilgar's leadership abilities, his administrative know-how, and his wisdom even beyond the battlefield make him an exemplary leader."

Stilgar's adeptness at delegation and strategic planning allows him to manage the expansive responsibilities that come with his elevated status seamlessly.

Stilgar and House Atreides

A significant portion of the episode focuses on Stilgar's initial interactions with House Atreides. Abub and Leo discuss the strategic alliance formed when House Atreides takes over Arrakis from the Harkonnens. They highlight Duncan Idaho's role in establishing positive relations with the Fremen, noting how his respectful demeanor and adoption of Fremen customs left a lasting impression on Stilgar.

Leo [07:56]: "Leaving good impressions on his Fremen friends was a brilliant move by Duke Leto."

The hosts explore the pivotal moments that solidify the bond between Stilgar and House Atreides, including Stilgar's proactive measures to protect Duncan Idaho from Harkonnen threats.

Abub [09:44]: "Stilgar is invested in establishing some sort of diplomacy with House Atreides, which shows his commitment to fostering strong alliances."

Personal Relationships and Fatherhood

Stilgar's role as a father figure is another focal point. Abub and Leo delve into his relationships with key characters such as Liet Kynes, Chani, and Paul Atreides. They underscore how Stilgar's paternal instincts influence his decisions and strengthen his alliances.

Abub [21:24]: "Stilgar has played the father figure role for a number of people in his life, which is evident in his relationship with Paul and others."

Stilgar's unwavering loyalty and his ability to mentor and support those around him are portrayed as integral to his character and to the stability of the Fremen society under House Atreides.

Stilgar Under Paul’s Reign: Strengths and Challenges

The episode examines Stilgar's transition into the broader political landscape of the Imperium under Paul Atreides' rule. While Stilgar excels in military and administrative roles, the hosts discuss how the complexities of prescience, religion, and political manipulation begin to challenge his grounded, pragmatic nature.

Abub [37:09]: "Stilgar's judgment focuses on victory and tangible outcomes, rather than the abstract concepts of prescience and religious manipulation."

This section highlights the tension between Stilgar's traditional Fremen values and the expansive, often morally ambiguous demands of governing an empire.

Stilgar’s Disillusionment and Final Years

As the narrative progresses into Children of Dune, Stilgar faces profound personal and societal upheavals. The hosts explore his growing disillusionment with Paul’s legacy and the unintended consequences of the jihad.

Leo [50:39]: "Stilgar is struggling with the dangerous effects that Paul's religion and leadership have had on both the Fremen and the wider Imperium."

The tragic loss of Stilgar's wife, Mithra, marks a significant emotional turning point, showcasing his vulnerability and deep personal grief.

Abub [46:08]: "At Mithra's funeral, Stilgar openly wept, revealing a rare glimpse into his profound personal loss."

The episode culminates in Stilgar's internal conflict and his ultimate struggle with the fading Fremen way of life, leading to his tragic demise.

Abub [51:48]: "Stilgar mourned for Muad'dib's son even as he honored him. What horrors could the child have seen in his oracular visions that made such a terrible transformation seem his duty?"

Conclusion

Abub and Leo conclude the episode by reflecting on Stilgar's enduring legacy within the Dune saga. They emphasize his embodiment of Fremen virtues, his critical role in the rise and fall of House Atreides, and his representation of the dangers inherent in unchecked power and charismatic leadership.

Leo [67:09]: "Stilgar is quickly climbing my ranks as one of my favorite characters in the Dune saga. He was a real one."

The hosts express deep respect for Stilgar, acknowledging him as a central figure that encapsulates the thematic essence of Dune, warning against the perils of populism and the loss of cultural identity.

Notable Quotes

• Abub [10:32]: "Stilgar's leadership abilities, his administrative know-how, and his wisdom even beyond the battlefield make him an exemplary leader."
• Leo [07:56]: "Leaving good impressions on his Fremen friends was a brilliant move by Duke Leto."
• Abub [21:24]: "Stilgar has played the father figure role for a number of people in his life, which is evident in his relationship with Paul and others."
• Abub [37:09]: "Stilgar's judgment focuses on victory and tangible outcomes, rather than the abstract concepts of prescience and religious manipulation."
• Abub [46:08]: "At Mithra's funeral, Stilgar openly wept, revealing a rare glimpse into his profound personal loss."
• Abub [51:48]: "Stilgar mourned for Muad'dib's son even as he honored him. What horrors could the child have seen in his oracular visions that made such a terrible transformation seem his duty?"
• Leo [67:09]: "Stilgar is quickly climbing my ranks as one of my favorite characters in the Dune saga. He was a real one."

Final Thoughts

This episode of Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast offers a comprehensive and heartfelt examination of Stilgar ben Fifrawi, shedding light on his indispensable role within the Dune universe. Abub and Leo skillfully navigate the complexities of his character, providing both loyal fans and newcomers with a deeper understanding of Stilgar's significance, leadership, and ultimate tragedy.

Transcript

[Abub]

Today on the show, we're stepping into a podcast episode where legend and reality are inseparably mixed.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abub]

And it's also 6, 7, and covered in scars.

[Leo]

Oh, my God. Legend and reality sound hot Swiping right.

[Abub]

You're gonna want to swipe right on legend and real.

[Leo]

Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies, and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name is Leo.

[Abub]

And my name's Abub.

[Leo]

Today on the show, we are continuing our conversation about Stilgar bin Frihawi. What's his name again? That's Fifrawi. Fifrawi, right?

[Abub]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fifrawi.

[Leo]

Stilgar Ben Frith. Stilgar Ben Fif. No, Fifawi.

[Abub]

Why is it so Stilgar? Our boy Stilgar.

[Leo]

Stilgar. We're talking about Stilgar. We love him. You love him. And honestly, as we continue today's conversation, it will become more and more clear, I think, that he is maybe the main character, but for sure, an important pillar within the Dune universe and one worth spending some time talking about.

[Abub]

Absolutely. Now, before we continue talking about our Navy boy, let's talk about our spoiler warning for today's episode and take care of some housekeeping. Unlike the part one episode, Right. Where we covered Stilgar's life leading up to the events of Dune, today's episode will contain spoilers and, in fact, will contain spoilers through the end of Children of Dune, which is the third book in the Dune saga. So before you continue listening today, if you're sensitive to spoilers, make sure that you've read the first three books.

[Leo]

Indeed. Do yourself a favor. Do not deny yourself the pleasure of those books without spoilers.

[Abub]

Indeed.

[Leo]

Now, as always, a huge, huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons, Daniel, Dion, Seth, Red, and Greer. I haven't gotten your heights yet, but I have to imagine you're well over 2 meters.

[Abub]

Oh.

[Leo]

Covered in scars from your very many battles. And I imagine that you, too, can quickly switch from consoling an injured child to hunting after the blood of your enemies. Because Stilgar's a real one. You're real ones.

[Abub]

Yes.

[Leo]

We cannot thank you enough for your generosity and your support. It makes what we do possible. And, of course, that thank you extends to all of our patrons at every level who help make this show possible. For as little as $5 a month, you can help us continue to do what we do and we really, really appreciate it.

[Abub]

That's right, folks. Our heartfelt thank you goes out to all the patrons at every level. You all truly help keep this show running. And of course, we have the option if you can't commit to a monthly donation in support of the show. That's all right. Check out the buy me a coffee link in the show notes below where you can leave a one time tip as a thank you. Every little bit helps in keeping the lights on and paying the bills and making more episodes.

[Leo]

So here's the game plan for today's episode. We're going to start by talking about Stilgar's introduction to the Atreides. They meet, if you can believe it. It's crazy, I know.

[Abub]

Hello.

[Leo]

Then we're going to look at some key moments through the first three books, kind of moments that continue to shape Stilgar's life, shape his legacy, shape the man that we all know and love.

[Abub]

Yep.

[Leo]

And finally, we're going to look at his death and the end of his life. What it all means. Kind of tie it up in a nice little spice morsel for you. And that's our episode.

[Abub]

That's it.

[Leo]

So before we get started, let's take a quick break. There's a lot of man to talk about, so don't go anywhere. Dear listener, when we're back, we're going to talk about the moment Stilgar meets Duncan Idaho.

[Abub]

On WhatsApp. No one can see or hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this. So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those late night voice messages that could basically become a podcast, your personal messages stay between you, your friends and your family. No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message privately with everyone. With the Venmo debit card, you can Venmo everything. Your favorite band's merch, you can Venmo this or their next show, you can Venmo that. Visit Venmo Me Debit to learn more. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp bank and a pursuant to license by Mastercard International Incorporated. The card may be used everywhere. MasterCard is accepted. Venmo purchase restrictions apply. Welcome back, folks. Let's continue our deep dive into the life of Stilgar Benfef Rawi.

[Leo]

So easy to say.

[Abub]

It's a mouthful. We ended part one after Stilgar became nabe of Tzeentchtabur and we talked in that episode about how the Tzeentiettch began to thrive under his leadership. He was leading successful raids against the Harkonnens. He was building new schools for all of the new children that were born in the community. And he was doing long term infrastructure planning to help the Tzeentietch community continue to thrive and grow for years to come. Today we're going to pick up right where we left off. And we're going to continue looking at the life of Stilgar and in particular, the arrival of House Atreides. This is one of the most monumental things that happens, frankly, to the whole Imperium. But on a personal level, that happens to Stilgar's life as we will unpack over the course of today's episode. So House Atreides reputation obviously preceded them. Stilgar knew about House Atreides and how they were supposedly a loyal bunch, much better than the Harkonnens. And for what it's worth, he was cautiously optimistic about their arrival and the change of fiefdom. Harkonnen's leaving Atreides. Coming in. Was he throwing a party? Was he ready to, like, get in bed with the Atreides? No, but he was hopeful that maybe things would change here on Arrakis, that maybe relations could be established. And of course, the Atreides were hopeful of the same thing.

[Leo]

Yeah. It's not a high bar to clear being better than the harkonnens after, like, 85 years, like, brutal regime. Yeah. It's like, yeah. Anyone else is going to be probably okay.

[Abub]

Absolutely. And for what it's worth, the Atreides make a very good first impression.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abub]

Because they send none other than their swordmaster, Duncan motherfucking Idaho.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abub]

Ahead of the rest of the House to establish relations with the Fremen, to visit the sietch and to make communication, to start diplomatic relations. And the Dune Encyclopedia tells us that Duncan's visit to Sietch Tabur left a very positive impression on Stilgar. Quote, during his stay in Sietch, Idaho had adopted Fremen customs without question and had conducted himself honorably.

[Leo]

Okay. Look at you, savvy traveler, Duncan Idaho. He's like chopsticks. I gotcha. Okay, now we're using spoons. No questions asked. Now I'm using spoons.

[Abub]

No questions. That's right.

[Leo]

Yeah. I think that's a real brilliant move on Leto's part. And maybe it's just luck, but, like the fact that as we come to know Duncan Idaho as a character and as we come to know the Fremen people and Their culture. That's a really good match. Right. Like, I think there is something about Duncan that really puts him at ease with the Fremen. And so that is perhaps, brilliance on Leito's part. Perhaps that was just coincidence. But either way, for sure leaving good impressions on his Fremen friends.

[Abub]

Indeed.

[Leo]

Now, broadly, what we're saying is true for the. The. Not only the impression that Stilgar had from his. His encounter with Duncan Idaho, but also, like Stilgar's introduction to House Atreides as a power with whom to have diplomacy or not. Right. So, yeah. Oh, yeah, they're on the right foot. Stilgar actually had kind of heard, whispered in the darkness warning about a Harkonnen mercenary attack, and Stilgar went out of his way. He actually sent a courier to warn Duncan Idaho about that attack. Now, unfortunately, don't shoot the messenger is not a popular phrase in Dune because the messenger was captured. Oh, no. The poor messenger. I don't want to be a messenger in Dune. But Idaho and his men were able to successfully fight off the Harkonnens thanks to the arrival of Stilgar himself. Which, honestly, sounds like an incredible scene. I want to see this adapted. That sounds so great.

[Abub]

Truly.

[Leo]

Oh, my gosh.

[Abub]

Truly.

[Leo]

Now, the courier. Again, don't shoot the messenger. Unfortunately, messenger got got because this courier was injured and actually died en route. So this is a Fremen sent by. Sent by Stilgar ended up dying en route. And Idaho. Actually, Duncan reports this to Duke Leto early in the first book. Here's the quote. We've taken a force of Harkonnen mercenaries disguised as Fremen. The Fremen themselves sent us a courier to warn of the false band in the attack. However, we found the Harkonnens had waylaid the Fremen courier, badly wounded him. We were bringing him here for treatment by our medics when he died. End quote.

[Abub]

Yeah. I think it's also notable that Stilgar himself showed up.

[Leo]

Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

[Abub]

And actually participated in the fight against the mercenaries. That, to me, reveals that Stilgar is invested in establishing some sort of diplomacy with House Atreides. And it also honestly tells me that he was very impressed with Duncan Idaho, that he went out of his way not only to send the courier as a warning, but then to go. You know what? I should go out there myself to really make sure that Duncan isn't caught off guard by these mercenaries.

[Leo]

Yeah, that's a great point. Also something that once. I don't think Duke Leto ever really got an understanding of how important Stilgar is like. You know, naturally he comes in and it's like, oh, I guess you're the person I'm meeting with. But like, no, no. He's like the head of Sietchtabur. The fact that he's out on the front lines in battle I think is also a sign of his values. But I like that, too. In that quote we have. The Fremen sent us a courier to warn of the false band. I'm thinking about this from Stilgar's perspective. So there's Harkonnen dressed as Fremen masquerading as Fremen. He's also protecting the Fremen. The kind of like, first meeting of the Fremen with House Atreides. Imagine if that was just bloodshed and violence. And then they come away from it and they go, wow, that group of Fremen was fucking vicious. I guess we can't be friends with them.

[Abub]

They're dangerous.

[Leo]

They're dangerous there. Yeah. So strategically, from. From Stilgar's perspective, he's like, let's make sure that when we meet this House Atreides, there's even room for that conversation to be had.

[Abub]

Yeah. Oh, good read. That's a great read on that.

[Leo]

Just as a possibility, of course.

[Abub]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Now, as I'm sort of joking, this is also leading up to that fateful scene where Stilgar comes into the room and everyone's like. I guess, is this, like a messenger? Is this a. No, no. Head of Sietchtabur.

[Abub]

Yep.

[Leo]

And he was. He left the meeting impressed by Duke Leto Atreides's honesty and integrity. Naturally, yeah. We also see in that scene, Stilgar basically calls dibs. Heavy dibs on Duncan. He's like, let's be friends.

[Abub]

Same.

[Leo]

And let's be more than friends. Dibs. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. He's also tall, also covered in scars. I'm liking this. And he forges his alliance with the Atreides. And this is about Duncan. Right. Quote, he will be Fremen and soldier of the Atreides. Your water is ours, Duncan Idaho. The body of our friend remains with your duke. His water is Atreides water. It is a bond between us. End quote.

[Abub]

Huge.

[Leo]

So we have the courier. Right. The body of the courier. Also not just a courier. This is a Fremen of Sietchtabur. This is presumably, yeah, literally here, a friend of Stilgar, A friend of. I am a friend of Jamis. Right. This is someone who was part of their community that they sent out and is now dead. He's Leaving that person in their water with this honorable duke and then calling dibs on the incredibly sexy Duncan Idaho. Yeah, makes a lot of sense. So cool. I love seeing this moment from kind of both perspectives.

[Abub]

Right. Kind of looking at this pivotal moment from Stilgar's perspective. I also want to call out that in the last episode we chatted quite a bit about how impressive it is that Stilgar is not just a good fighter and that's why he became the head of Siege To Bear. He's actually a wise administrator and a cunning political leader. Right. Like he. He knows more than just how to wave a knife around better than everybody else. And I think this alliance that's been forged with the Atreides is actually kind of a brilliant move on Stilgar's part because he's able to establish this bond, as he says, between the Atreides and the Fremen. He's also able to recruit an ambassador who he now implicitly trusts. He has been on the battlefield with Duncan Idaho. Duncan came to siege Tibur and easily fell into the Fremen ways and was respectful to the Fremen ways. So not only is Stilgar basically saying, this guy's good. Make him the ambassador and the liaison between my people and your people, but I'm going to give you the body and the water of our friend to forge this alliance. I think this is a very politically savvy move from Stilgar when you think of it from his perspective and why he would make these decisions. Shows again why he's such a good leader.

[Leo]

That's a great point. I also, as you were talking, I'm thinking about, like we think about what we know now from the first episode that we've done about Stilgar and how he represents a new generation of Fremen leadership. Right. He overthrew his nabe because they knew with the death of Pardo Kynes that the dream for a green Arrakis was potentially jeopardized by the old Fremen who just kind of stick to old ways and go, well, let's just regress back to what's comfortable, which is how we've always done things. Now it seems to me, I don't know this to be a fact, but we don't have any sign that the Fremen have ever been cozy with an Imperial House. Naturally not helped by the fact that the House that they have access to is House Harkonnen. And not a lot of invitations, not a lot of freely stationary going, will you be my friend? Why? Or no? Circle and crumple. Throw it to me. Uh, none of that's happening with House Harkonnen. So I do wonder if this is also Stilgar really taking a risk. Understanding that this is a new move for the Fremen. But like, let's beta test this. Let's actually try for the first time in Fremen history, being cozy with a great House and see what happens. Yeah, I wonder if that's something he feels pressured to do as like a new blood leader. Not that he's newly name at this moment, but just that he is generally, his leadership style has been one of allowing the old ways to become the old ways and having some new methodology as well. Right.

[Abub]

Yeah, yeah, he was. He was part of that younger wave of knaves that a lot of Sietches adopted after Pardo Kynes passed away. Right, right. A lot of. A lot of the elders were deposed. Stilgar deposed. What was his name? Farouk. Farouk.

[Leo]

Farad.

[Abub]

Farad. Whoever. The old. See, he's so irrelevant, we don't even remember the old Sietch Tiber knave's name. So, yeah, I think that's a good point. I think, like Stilgar here is also treading new ground because for generations now the Fremen haven't exactly had diplomatic relations with any House from the Imperium. And they've had these loose ties to smugglers who they give spice to as a way of concealing themselves. But I think the Imperium and the Fremen haven't necessarily gotten along in like 80 plus years now. So, yeah, this is totally new ground. Which again, looking at this meeting between Stilgar and Leto through that lens, this is the first in generations to happen. Impressive that it went so smoothly. Right. And that in fact both people, both parties, walked away with an alliance that was amenable to both of them. Yeah, kind of a win. Win. Very impressive.

[Leo]

Yeah, it's cool. Now, turning to the books, turning to what we've seen in the books. We've already covered one of the scenes. We were so tempted to just like revisit every scene that Stilgar's in. Because we love Stilgar and Stilgar is such a great character.

[Abub]

Yeah, truly.

[Leo]

But we did give you a spoiler warning and ultimately you should have read the first three books. So we are going to now touch on kind of significant moments throughout the books and re examine them through this lens of like what we've learned about Stilgar from the Dune Encyclopedia and what we now know about our favorite Navy boy.

[Abub]

That's right.

[Leo]

And all of this kicks off, honestly, with probably one of the biggest turning points in Stilgar's life. Also one of the big, biggest turning points for the entire imperium. Paul Atreides. Ever fucking heard of him?

[Abub]

I love.

[Leo]

I think he's like the shortening of the way or something, which is important because Stilgar is so tall. You need to shorten a bit.

[Abub]

That's right.

[Leo]

It's a queecet cataract joke. And the Dune encyclopedia summarizes Stilgar's feelings. Well, quote from his first encounter with Jessica and Paul, Stilgar felt himself being pulled into a world bigger than the one he knew. An environment where legend and reality were inseparably mixed. End quote.

[Abub]

Mm. That's powerful.

[Leo]

What a great bit of writing too.

[Abub]

Oh, yeah. And I want listeners to really keep this mind because this is almost a thesis statement for today's episode and frankly for Stilgar's life. From the moment he encounters Paul Atreides, the Lisan al Gaib, he is swept up into a world where legend and reality intermix. And we're gonna talk quite a bit about that over the course of today's episode as we cover his life. It's a great quote.

[Leo]

I love that. I also. It's the other side of the perspective. You know, Paul thinks when he is writing his first sandworm, he thinks about how big the sandworm is. And he can kind of feel the moment becoming legend as he breathes. And as he does it, he's like, this is becoming myth. And he's seeing it from the perspective of, I've seen all of this in my prescient visions and I'm worried about the jihad and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's interesting to know that another character in this moment, during these moments with Paul is going. It feels like I'm going to be in history books and it feels like people are going to be talking about this moment.

[Abub]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Generations from now. And I don't know how to feel about that because historically I've just been tending to, like, injured children and, like leading my people and building schools and stuff. I'm not like, that's very strange.

[Abub]

Yeah. Right. To know that you are being swept up in legend.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abub]

Must be a very kind of awe inspiring feeling and also daunting feeling.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abub]

Now, super quickly, we want to hit on two points that we kind of already touched on in the part one discussion. But it's worth calling out again that there are a number of parallels we see from Stilgar's early life. The stuff we talked about in part one from the Dune encyclopedia and the events of the first book, for example, we learned from the encyclopedia last episode that Stilgar has played the father figure role for a number of people in his life at this point.

[Leo]

Yeah, so many people.

[Abub]

First there was his blood brother, Liet Kynes, who he practically raised. Right. Because Pardo was off doing Dream of a Green Arrakis stuff. Then, of course, there's his goddaughter, Chani. He has a number of wives and a number of actual children who he is blood father to, like, related to. So Stilgar has a lot of experience at this point being a dad. He's already a daddy, but he has many years of dad experience as well. And we see that trend continue in the first book. Right. His relationship with Paul, particularly in those early years.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abub]

When Paul and Jessica are being established within the Fremen communities, when Paul is learning the ways of the Fremen, when Jessica is learning the ways of the Sayadina. A huge part of that we have to attribute to Stilgar's ability to kind of step into that father figure role for Paul. And of course, that relationship, to some extent, will be maintained for the rest of Stilgar's life with Paul Atreides. He will always be a mentor, a father figure, and a close advisor and ally to the Lyson Al Gaib. And for what it's worth, Stilgar's relationship with the Kynes family, with Pardo and Liette is exactly the way he treats the legendary Muadi Paul Atreides. Right. He's steadfast, he's reliable, he's loyal, he's effective. You give him a job, he gets it done better than you expected it to be done.

[Leo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Abub]

And so it's honestly really endearing to see that Stilgar is unchanged by the forces around him. And that'll kind of become a theme here in his life as well. But he has always been and always will be the loyal, steadfast friend who will be at your side. That's who he is for the Kynes family. That's who he becomes for Paul in the first book and beyond.

[Leo]

And also, not for nothing, that's the sense that I get, is that's the person he is as nape. Like, he's also there for the. For the community, for the people. And it's like, yeah, I'm leading the sietch. And it's like, yeah, but is it cool if you're also the godparent to my kid? And you're like, yeah, he's like, yeah, sure, bro, of course.

[Abub]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Leo]

We also see this clear parallel in the power dynamics between Stilgar and Liet versus Stilgar and Paul. Right?

[Abub]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So both imperial outsiders could very easily have challenged Stilgar for command. There was expectations within the broader community that they would. Liet, as the son of Pardo Kynes, of course he's going to take over the dream for a green Arrakis. But also probably because Pardo was such an animal of Sietch de ber, probably you're gonna lead Sietch de ber too, right? Like you're Fremen, you're the son of. It makes so much sense. Same thing with Paul. You are the Lisan Al Gaib. You are literally our prophesied leader. Surely you're gonna be the leader also. I imagine the Sietchtabur people are like. But leader of Sietchtabur. Right. Like us. Cause we're us. We're the Sietch of Usel. I mean, we know his name. We've got his Usul calling card. This is great.

[Abub]

That's right.

[Leo]

That's right. They're like, yeah, you know, you know, Muadib. But like, I have them on my, my contacts. I have em on my top five on Facebook. On top five. What was that? Favorites. No, what was the MySpace thing? The. The top five. Anyway.

[Abub]

Oh, gosh, I never had a MySpace.

[Leo]

Okay. Anyway, so nevertheless, right, a lot of parallels there where we see the Fremen expectation, the broader Fremen expectation of. Yeah, well, this off worlder is going to clearly. And not even necessarily off worlder, but like imperial outsider, I guess is a better way to say it is going to take up this mantle. And in both cases, they deftly leveraged their imperial titles to allow Stilgar to lead the Fremen people while still remaining in charge. Right. This is the. I'm the Duke of Arrakis. I am Paul Muad'dib Atreides, son of Leto Atreides. I am the duke of this planet. And Stilgar, quietly, Stilgar is still, you know, Nabe of Sietchtabur.

[Abub]

That's right.

[Leo]

And then similarly, well, I'm the son or I'm the child of Pardo Kynes. So I'm taking over the imperial planetologist role. Very cool.

[Abub]

Exactly.

[Leo]

Win wins all around.

[Abub]

Win wins all around. And it's fun to see those parallels in Stilgar's life. The repetition of what happened with the Kynes family happening again with the Atreides.

[Leo]

Yeah. After Paul, he's like this keeps happening to me.

[Abub]

Right.

[Leo]

Okay.

[Abub]

Now, of course, we would be remiss in not mentioning that in both of these situations, actually, Stilgar and the Kynes family, Stilgar and the Atreides, there is a deeply religious aspect that underpins all of this for Stilgar. He is a staunch believer, both in the dream for a green Arrakis and in the prophecy of the Lisa N Al Gaib. And this is something that early in the first book, Jessica clocks this right away in Sylgar. This quote is moments after Paul defeats Jamis quote. Jessica saw belief come slowly to Stilgar, saw the relief in him as he tugged at his beard with a deeply veined hat. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abub]

He is witnessing a prophecy, a legend come to life in front of him. Something that he deeply believes in. And that I think is also something that will continue to be sort of a core theme in Stilgar's life. He is a believer through and through. And in fact, it is this belief in the legend of Paul Muad'dib Atreides that makes Stilgar one of his closest allies and friends.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abub]

In fact, at the end of the first book, after Paul does his thing, defeats Shaddam iv, takes his Jordans, uncreased Jordans, all that. One of the very first acts, the encyclopedia tells us one of the very first acts as emperor that Paul does is to make Stilgar his right hand man. As the planetary governor of Arrakis, you are no longer just nabe of Sietch Tabur. You are the planetary governor of the whole planet. And you will be at my right hand side as I serve as emperor from Arrakeen. That's huge. That's a huge display of trust. And a lot of that is due to the fact that Stilgar is loyal, he's steadfast, he's a believer. Yeah, but here's where a big but comes in.

[Leo]

A water fat ass, you might say a big butt.

[Abub]

That's right. There are about to be more water fat asses on Arrakis over the next couple decades.

[Leo]

Fremen, as Leto too tells, tells him the Fremen women have some big butts this year. He's like, oh, that's right, the BBL.

[Abub]

Is on Arrakis just going like off the charts. So as we move into Messiah and Children of Dune, we will see. And we are about to talk about how basically unchecked political and religious power what Paul Atreides is handed has this flattening effect on everyone and everything around it. And Stilgar being so close to the inner circle. Being such a close ally of Muad'dib is no exception and feels the force of this unchecked power and it affects him over the course of the rest of his life. So we're gonna get into Messiah and Children of Dune and the rest of Stilgar's life after a quick break. So stick around, folks. We're going to get into all of that and much more in just a minute.

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[Abub]

Indeed.

[Leo]

The Dune Encyclopedia tells us that his transition to his role as planetary governor did not at first really change his day to day responsibilities all that much, which is hilarious to me. It's like you're going from leading a siege of like 20,000 people to leading a planet and you're like, yeah, it's still just paperwork. It's fine, I've got this.

[Abub]

I assume it's a lot of delegation.

[Leo]

It's a lot of delegation. He knows who to give power to give, give roles to. He is still acting as Paul's close advisor and war mast, but just in a larger capacity. So it's scaled up a little bit bigger and even extended beyond Arrakis as the jihad is sort of exploding across the galaxy. Right. The other imperial houses, they're not just turning over and giving all the power to Paul. The jihad has to happen. And Stilgar is a part of that. He is The Warmaster, yes. So he's. He goes from the nabe of a single sietch to a planetary governor and now warmaster of a galactic jihad in a matter of 24 hours. And honestly, he handles it very well. In fact, unless he had to go into the office in Arrakeen for a particular reason. He was telecommuting basically the entire time. Working from home. He had a stable Internet connection. So from sietch to Burr, you get.

[Abub]

That fiber optics set up in the sietch, you're good to go.

[Leo]

Google Meets, meetings, Skype meetings. He was juggling, his calendar was full. But he was mostly working from sietch to Burr also because let us not forget, he is at the end of the day, a family man. He has three wives and now has also Hera as a fourth wife. So the Jamis's widow, who effectively sort of transferred over to Paul when he beat Jamis, now becomes a part of Stilgar's family and a wife of Stilgar.

[Abub]

Indeed.

[Leo]

Some of his responsibilities as he is taking over these many new roles are expanded. And he found himself, we get senses of this in Messiah and Children of Dune. He finds himself annoyed by a lot of the court intrigue, interplanetary diplomacy that he's now having to get involved with. Like, I think the Fremen are a beautiful culture and they're very straightforward. And so the idea of going into this like, plans within plans, off worlder bullshit and like all of the bureaucracy and the red tape.

[Abub]

Yeah.

[Leo]

It's like, oh my God, can't we just fucking kill him?

[Abub]

Right?

[Leo]

We can't. Oh, we have to file a complaint. That sucks.

[Abub]

Does he have a knife? We can figure this treaty out right here, bro.

[Leo]

Get your knife out.

[Abub]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Where's your knife? You didn't bring a knife to this diploma. Oh, my God. Okay, we'll do it your way. Where. Where do I sign exactly?

[Abub]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And in that way, he did prefer to stick to military matters because there is a blessed simplicity to. I sent a force, you sent a force, and we came out on top. Especially because the Fremen were coming out on top more often than not.

[Abub]

A lot.

[Leo]

A lot. All in all, though, the Dune Encyclopedia tells us that Paul's rule went well for Stilgar. You know, you could see all of this being a giant headache. He could absolutely burn out. All of this could go really badly. But in fact, he did quite well, quote, despite his occasional longings for simpler times. No kidding. However, Stilgar managed to adapt to his new role and to carry out his duties With a minimum of personal trauma for the first 12 years of Atreides reign. End quote. Okay, honestly, may be the most incredible thing we've shared about st because I can I reiterate. He went from the name of a sietch of 10,000 people to planetary governor, war master to a galactic jihad and right hand man to a generational messiah.

[Abub]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And he's like, yeah, I'm good. Why do you ask? Oh, I have a lot on my plate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yes.

[Abub]

Right. Just, just put her on the asana board. I'll get to it.

[Leo]

Yeah, I have a trello set up for that if you want to like add some cards to my to do list.

[Abub]

He becomes a productivity influencer on the side.

[Leo]

You know, he's running, he's a ton tock account. He's like, Here are the 10 things I do every day before I leave my siege.

[Abub]

Here's my five to nine, before my nine to five. You know, I get up, I mix my ag one, I go on a five mile jog.

[Leo]

I wake up at 3am, I do an ice face dunk. And then I keep my mouth taped or whatever that fucking guy did. And that Stilgar.

[Abub]

That's Stilgar, yeah. It is impressive. He. It is a wild come up. And the fact that for the first decade or so, for the first 12 years, he's able to manage it quite effectively. Which again we keep repeating this but speaks to his leadership abilities, speaks to his administrative know how and his wisdom even beyond the battlefield. But as the leader of the Jihad, also his experience on the battlefield plays a role here too. So really I don't think you could have picked anyone better than Stilgar to be be the first planetary governor of Arrakis of this new imperium.

[Leo]

Yeah, I agree.

[Abub]

And you know, here's what I'll say. Beyond that, beyond just his natural abilities as a leader. I do think some of this smooth transition and why this is an easy role for Stilgar to step into is because at this point in his life, he is still a die hard believer in his prophet Paul Muadib. Everything that's happening is meant to be, has been prophesied. It's a holy war. So I'm gonna give it my all. You know, I'm gonna have my AG1, I'm gonna do the ice bath and then I'm gonna get out there and win this jihad for my boy Wadib.

[Leo]

Right?

[Abub]

And you know, that's interesting because once you get into Dune Messiah. We talked about this a lot in our Book clubs. But it becomes more and more clear that 12 years into Paul's reign, Stilgar is finding himself out of his depth. He can win you a war, he can win you a battle, he can run an administration well. But when it comes to something like prescience and how that plays into all of this, in fact, when it even comes to something like religion and using religion as sort of like a political tool, that's something Stilgar is inexperienced with, right?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abub]

And prescience is something that the whole galaxy clearly is dealing with for the first time. But I think on a personal level, it's something that confounds Stilgar. And I was going back through my highlights in Dune Messiah, looking back at some of the quotes we had pulled, and this one really stuck out to me. Paul observes this sort of passiveness in Stilgar and Dune Messiah during one of the council meeting chapters where the Council is discussing Paul's abilities and what prescience can and can't do for them as they try to run this empire. Quote, Paul smiled. The issue of the Oracle, by Stilgar's judgment, had been closed. Stilgar aimed only at victory, not at discovering the truth. Peace, justice, and a sound coinage, these anchored Stilgar's universe. He wanted something visible and real, a signature on a treaty. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah. That's incredible.

[Abub]

Stilgar's world operates based on things he can see, feel, touch, stab. And so when it gets to the, like, more heady philosophical ideas around prescience and religion and manipulation, frankly, those things are lost on Stilgar. And for what it's worth, like, I don't. This isn't even me trying to say, like, Stilgar is a big dummy or something. He is a brilliant leader, but this is just unprecedented.

[Leo]

I also think that that, quote, that idea of the issue of the Oracle has been closed. The idea of what anchors his universe. I see this as the ultimate key to why he's able to become planetary governor and warmaster to a jihad overnight and not be utterly ruined. He is someone for whom the immediate present and the issue that you can work on at this moment is the only real thing. And that stuff that's like the scope of your responsibility, the size of the universe, the blah, blah, blah, all of that stuff that's so overwhelming to us, just, yeah, it's like all of. None of that's real. And I think there's something really kind of enlightened about, like, well, all I can do is hop onto the next Google Meets meeting, you know, answer the questions I'm asked and make it in time for my 5am you know, running, whatever. Like, I. I think there's something that's right.

[Abub]

That's right.

[Leo]

Again, It. It's practicality. It's not at all stupidity. For sure. You're. You're right. I think it's. And it's almost like the Zen Sunni wisdom of just. Or the Zen wisdom, the Buddhist wisdom of like, what happened yesterday, what's happening tomorrow. None of that's really my concern. All you can focus on is what is real and present and in front of you now. And that's also, I think, what makes him the perfect. Like, yeah, he can comfort the child and then immediately be focused on hunting down the blood of his enemies because at the end of the day, he's someone who gets things done and believes in the ideas of peace and justice and something to work toward.

[Abub]

Yeah, absolutely. I think you're spot on. I personally don't suspect Stilgar as the kind of man who gets hung up on the what ifs. He is out here to get things done. And for him, I imagine getting things done is a fairly linear thought process. It's like, to get to that end goal, I need to do A, B, C, D. Great, let's do it.

[Leo]

And if things go south, I have my Chris knife. So I feel like I have my bases covered. If anything, maybe that's really an indictment of how smart he is because he's able to just handle whatever is tossed his way intellectually, and then the things that he can't handle intellectually, he's like, well, yeah, I have a knife. This is great.

[Abub]

Right?

[Leo]

It's a good time.

[Abub]

Yeah.

[Leo]

It's interesting to note, I think, in all of this as well, that as early as Dune, Messiah, we start to see small cracks in Stilgar's belief in little throwaway lines. And this is, I think, the beginning of this other piece of his arc, another piece of Stilgar's journey.

[Abub]

Yes.

[Leo]

I also think that this is something that's present in his life. Things like Amtal, the belief that you have to, like, test something to its breaking point to know that it's real. We get this throwaway line in that same council meeting, which is so fascinating, and I'm glad you highlighted this. Quote, convening with the emperor, one hoped for a fault in him, to find mistakes. Stilgar thought he felt this might be sacrilege, but wanted it anyway. End quote. So as he's observing the Lisan al Gaib, the voice from the outer world, the Mahdi, the Paul Muadib Atreides, his surrogate son, this emperor of the universe, by all accounts a great guy, Stilgar still finds himself, or starts to find himself in Messiah, having moments of like, is this right? Is he the right one for this? And those little whispers are, again, I think, part of the Fremen attitude of your neighbor is the right one to lead until he isn't. And when do you make that decision and when do you make that call? That's like a Fremen attitude. And I think that makes perfect sense.

[Abub]

Yep.

[Leo]

So he's starting to have those little whispers in Dune Messiah. And although he is at this point, in a much more passive advisor role and also very much out of his depth as a very grounded, practical person. And your emperor's like, by the way, Hitler, 60, you know, billion. Oh, and then there's also this thing in the future and all this. And he's like, okay, I think he flew an ornithopter blind the other day. That's crazy. You know, still, he is a wise Fremen who rose to power, went from just being an outsider from Sietch Umbu to the neighbor of Sietch Tabur. And that Fremen attitude that. That the wisdom of his upbringing, of his youth can't help but question where things are headed and how much Paul has changed and also how much Paul has changed the universe. You know, Paul and the universe are changing hand in hand. And we see this pressure point, this question come to a boiling point in Children of Dune. In fact, very early in Children of Dune.

[Abub]

Oh, my goodness. This is. I mean, when you crack open Children of Dune, that first chapter is just shocking, crazy, wild stuff.

[Leo]

Especially considering what we've learned about Stilgar in the last book, like how caring he is, how good of a surrogate father he is.

[Abub]

Like, yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So let's talk about it. Moving on from Messiah. Let's talk about Children of Dune. Stilgar's universe clearly became unmoored at the end of Messiah. Paul, his Lisanal gaib, walked out into the desert, a death sentence for the Fremen. And he has left behind two children in the care of Sietch Tabur and Stilgar, Ghanima and Leto. And the Imperium itself is now under the rule of a regent, Alia Atreides. Stilgar's entire world has been shaken up by the end of that book. And the Dune Encyclopedia actually tells us that the next 10 years of his life after the end of Dune, Messiah will be some of the most turbulent years of his Entire life this decade quote, aged him severely. End quote. According to the Dune encyclopedia.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abub]

Wild stuff, especially for a Fremen of the deep desert. You can imagine he has looked rugged and aged since like 12, maybe.

[Leo]

Yeah. You're also, like, coming face to face with Shai hulud since you're 12 and it's like, yeah, yeah, but like God in the form of the devil that rides through the world. That's fine. All of this shit. Oh, I'm tired. It's like, oh, man.

[Abub]

All of this shit. Paul Alia, the. The twins. A lot of responsibility has been dumped on Stilgar, and he's lost a lot by this point in his life. It's a rough time to be Stilgar.

[Leo]

And.

[Abub]

And in fact, speaking of loss, another tragedy strikes here. In 10211 AG, his first wife, Mithra, passes away after more than 50 years of marriage together. And this. This was heartbreaking stuff because it is clear from the Dune encyclopedia.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abub]

That this breaks a little part of Stilgar. It's actually said in the encyclopedia that this is the only time that anyone ever witnessed Stilgar give water to the dead. Because at Mithra's funeral, Stilgar openly wept. And that tells us everything we need to know about that relationship with his first wife.

[Leo]

I'm also just like, I love Stilgar so much. Hearing that he wept at her funeral, I'm like, no, he should never weep. Protect Stilgar at all.

[Abub]

Protect Stilgar.

[Leo]

And also, yeah, Misra. Just such a long marriage. And of course, you know, we mentioned that Misra's Chris knife stays within the universe for quite a while as well. But, like, yeah, man, that's so sweet and sad.

[Abub]

Loss after loss for Stilgar here.

[Leo]

I wonder if that's also. I mean, we'll have to kind of keep that in mind. But you have your family life, and oftentimes losing that family member or losing that piece of the family can recenter you. You think back onto when you met. You think back to when you were younger. It brings you a lot back to. We know he's already missing the simpler times of. I was just the name of the. Of the sietch. I wonder if Mistra's passing also.

[Abub]

Ah, that's a great point.

[Leo]

In addition to being devastatingly sad, I wonder if it also really gave him a. Forced him to come face to face with how different his life is now.

[Abub]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And, you know, it's like, okay, you're weeping because your wife died, but also, get back to work still car. You've got, like, A bunch of shit to do. And it's like, that's gotta be really hard.

[Abub]

Yeah. And you know, tragedy is often a time where you re. Examine your life and re. Examine your priorities. And I imagine it was the same for Stilgar. Yeah, for sure.

[Leo]

These are also the years in which Stilgar is kind of becoming disillusioned with the changes brought to Arrakis during Paul's life. And we joked about this, but it's genuinely crazy once we think about Stilgar as like the effectively surrogate father of Liet Kynes, the godfather to Chani, the surrogate father to Paul. The fact that Children of Dune opens on a chapter where he's standing in the dark with his knife going, should I like kill these children? These like five year old children? Should I stab them? Because like, yeah, he probably, probably couldn't bring himself to do it. Although, I don't know, maybe you know, if he believed it was the truly just thing, if it was as clear, if it was clear to him that it was the only thing that would bring justice and peace and the other things that anchor his reality, maybe. But he's beginning to realize also the dangerous effect that Paul and his religion have had on his Fremen and the Empire. Right.

[Abub]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Leo]

Here's, here's a really impactful quote. How simple things were when our Messiah was only a dream. He thought by finding our Mahdi, we loosed upon the universe countless messianic dreams. Every people subjugated by the jihad now dreams of a leader to come. If my knife liberated all of those people, would they make a messiah of me?

[Abub]

Holy shit.

[Leo]

End quote. Bars. Bars. Dude, Frank knew how to write. But I think it's fascinating here because we're seeing this play, the word Messiah being handled in all of its complexity. The Messiah was a dream. That was a time, a simple time. We were happy about it. But by finding that Messiah, this created new messianic dreams. Would I be made into a messiah? But that's not a good thing. I think if we lacked the context we might see that. Would they make a messiah of me as a. Would they put me on a pedestal? Would they worship me? But instead we see the cynicism. We see the kind of. He's understanding the cycle and he's understanding the, the, the trap of thinking that it is that simple to overthrow the regime of oppression and now everything's good. Well no, you've, you are now subjugating billions and billions of people and you're creating a need for the pendulum to swing the Other way.

[Abub]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And he's thinking this, this grounded, practical man has been forced to come face to face with a very broad thought. And the result of it is he's like, yeah, maybe I'll. Maybe I'll just kill these kids. Maybe I'll just stab these children. Wildly heretical thoughts from someone who just 20 years ago was like, I'm gonna fully full chestedly back this off worlder child, this 15 year old, pasty water, fat ass. He is the savior of my people. So we see that, like Stilgar in many ways is, without exaggeration, the most thematically important character in Dune. Like, oh, absolutely. He is the warning. He is the embodiment of the warning and his thought processes and the way that he changes all of the ways that Frank is warning about charismatic leaders and about populism. This is Stilgar is that, is the embodiment of that warning. And it's. Oh, it's crazy to look at Children of Dune and to see how different of a person Stilgar is in so many ways.

[Abub]

Absolutely. And here's the thing, though. We're still talking about Stilgar here, folks. Internally, there's turmoil. Internally, he's literally debating whether or not the right thing here would be to kill these two children. Right. Externally, though, he is still that reliable, steadfast, loyal servant of House Atreides. He is doing what he must for Alia, who's the regent and the current ruler of the Imperium. And he is tackling his responsibilities. That asana board is not going unchecked.

[Leo]

Yeah, he actually opened also a notion board. And it's like assigning tasks, getting them done.

[Abub]

Oh, no. He got really into notion.

[Leo]

Oh, no, not notion.

[Abub]

Right. I mean, after a great tragedy, folks do also tend to flock toward notion.

[Leo]

You know, he tried codex for a minute, but their like, turnaround on troubleshooting was not great. Just wait till you see his airtables. His air tables are out of control.

[Abub]

Out of control. Nothing's color coded. It's insane. Now, of course, we know that in Children of Dune things do come to a head for Stilgar. Right? There is like that iconic scene where, where Duncan Idaho confronts Stilgar and basically provokes him, right? Eggs him on to a violent rage to get Stilgar to murder him, to get the name, to murder the ghola of his once dear friend.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abub]

If we think all the way back in the timeline to their first meeting, which we talked about earlier. Now, of course, this forces Stilgar to gather his followers, to gather Irulan and Ghanima. And to flee, to get out there into the deep desert as he's being hunted by Alia's agents. Alia wants to get her hands on Ghanima at this point in the story. And we discussed this in our book club as well, in our Children of Dune book club. But this little adventure, right? Stilgar back out on the run with his most loyal crew. Man, this brings him back, baby. Like he feels alive again after all of these years, after all of the turmoil of Paul's rule in the last 20 years.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abub]

This is what he knows best. You're in the deep desert. You're on the run, baby. You're striking out and conducting raids against your enemies, and you're eking out an existence out here. This is what Stilgar was born into and knows how to do. And this adventure really connects him with his youth, to the things he's done his whole life before the Lysa Naagai, before this messiah came in and changed everything. Now, alas, we all know how that goes down. Treachery wins the day at the end, and Stilgar is ultimately captured, thanks to the fucker Boyer Agarv is and is thrown into the dungeons. And he, in fact, is in the dungeons during the end of Children of Dune, during that confrontation between Leto and Alia, and Leto ultimately taking the throne.

[Leo]

Yeah, that's got to be rough. But I do like your point that he's very much alive again. And he's like, listen, I might be in the dungeons, but.

[Abub]

What a ride.

[Leo]

Oh, what a ride. This is better than those diplomatic fucking meetings and all the mnemic film books that I was having to watch under Paul's man. Give me the. Give me the open. The Open sky. The Scorpions. Oh, it's great, great time.

[Abub]

I mean, it's sad, but also it's really nice that late in life here, Stilgar got to feel that rush again of what his childhood and what most of his life before Paul was like. That life of a true deep desert Fremen, something that has all but disappeared from Arrakis at this point.

[Leo]

Right? Well, it's time, dear listener. And I didn't want it to get to this point because we want only the best for him. But it's time we talk about Stilgar's. The end of Stilgar's life, his death. And as we near Stilgar's death and the start of Leto II's rule, we see that he is now in a universe that had far surpassed him. Right when we're talking about he Started to have those whispers of like, yeah, with Paul, it's really hard to keep up with this talk about the future and the past. And there's all this shit that is just so far beyond my day to day responsibilities. And then you have leito too. And leito two's out here like, oh, I'm gonna live for 3,000 years. I'm gonna like, marry my sister. But we're never gonna have kids, but she's gonna have kids with Faradin and like all. And it's like, oh, man, that's so. I don't know what any of this means. This is so much. And Leto too. I mean, rereading Children of Dune. What a difficult character to deal with if you're a practical moment to moment person. He's speaking in French, playing the fucking balliset badly. He's doing a lot of crazy stuff. He's like fucking with people even as a child. So Stilgar, with his now effectively antiquated Fremen ways, is struggling and, yeah, you know, as the other names are finding themselves just in awe and terrified of Leto 2's basically godlike powers becoming that destructive wind tearing through the quinats and setting back the dream of a green arrakis by 100 years, 500 years. And as he is claiming their fealty, their loyalty, but at the threat of violence and at the threat of this godlike presence, Stilgar grieves. Quote, Stilgar mourned for Muad'dib's son even as he honored him. What horrors could the child have seen in his oracular visions that made such a terrible transformation seem his duty? End quote. I think also Stilgar is someone who. We get the sandtrout suit as kind of a. It feels like it's not something that Frank had considered when he wrote the first book because we don't really get any sense of like, oh, yeah, Fremen playing with sandtrout. But looking at Stilgar, seeing that he's become one with Shai Hulot, he's become one with this agent of death and chaos. He is maintaining a lethal dosage of the Water of Life poison constantly. And you go, this is a child I was looking after.

[Abub]

Right.

[Leo]

And all of this stuff is happening to him.

[Abub]

Yeah.

[Leo]

I think from a Fremen perspective, it's even more horrifying. Like, I think off worlders see the nine year old throwing the two ton door and go, my God, he's a superhuman. But I think Stilgar is going to understand as a Fremen, as The Fremen like, window into the Fremen culture. He is understanding also the. The Shaitan's deal, the deal with the literal devil that Leto's made and going. I was supposed to watch after this kid who was the son of my friend Muadib.

[Abub]

Right.

[Leo]

That. That idea of his grief. Right. He mourned even as he honored him is like, that's so beautiful. And I.

[Abub]

This is personal for him, not just religious.

[Leo]

Yeah. And it's. It's that Fremen perspective that, like, that we. We really don't get as much of from almost any other character.

[Abub]

Yeah, absolutely. Great point.

[Leo]

And of course, that sadness for Leto extends beyond just Leto. Stilgar, again, although he's practical and although he's focused on the day to day, he also is now seeing more of what this means for the Fremen and what this means for the future and how this is going to play out. Quote. Though he would not live to see it, Stilgar had heard Leto's description of the changes in store for Arrakis, and he wanted no part of that new world. No worms, no spice, no endless desert against which to pit body and mind, knowing such a battle could only be determined by Shai Hulud. In the end, the old life, the Fremen life, would come to an end. End quote. Just, wow. Beautiful, beautiful stuff. So sad. And he's hearing. He. And again, I see in this the believer, he is not hearing this child saying, oh, in a thousand years, there's going to be no worms, no spice, no endless desert. He's not going, well, I can't picture that. He still is a believer at heart. He hears Leto's words, his oracular visions, and he goes, I don't get it, but I know you're telling the truth. And at the end of the day, that's not a world that I want to see.

[Abub]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Because that is a complete erasure of the Fremen way of life. And if there are people there, they're not going to be Fremen. And that's really, really sad.

[Abub]

Yeah, it's heartbreaking stuff. For Stilgar here at the end of his life to realize the inevitable and realize perhaps his role in unlocking Pandora's box on Arrakis and beyond across the whole imperium. And it's this Stilgar, in fact, attired, subdued, I would argue probably broken Stilgar that returns to siege Taber after Leto's rise to power and continues to rule his name. He's no longer involved in the politics of the rest of the Imperium. He goes back to being just the name of Sietabur. And that, in fact, is where he spends the rest of his life. He will die in 10,228 AG as the name of Sietabur. And in fact, the encyclopedia makes it clear that so much of the fire had gone out of the Fremen, so much of the culture had already been lost by this point that not a single person challenged the aging nabe of Sietch Tabur. And Stilgar simply died of natural causes, which is something you imagine rarely used to happen to knaves of sietches of old, Right? In fact, I would imagine old knaves would be honored to fall in battle to a younger knave that deserved to take that mantle. Stilgar wasn't even given that final honor. And in fact, God, this was also absolutely brutal. The encyclopedia, the entry on Stilgar ends on a note about how Leto too, really, truly hammered the final nail into the coffin of the Fremen way of life by forbidding anyone from fighting to take over leadership of Sietchtabur after Stilgar's passing. Instead, Leto simply appointed somebody to be the new nabe. Somebody that he knew was malleable and could easily be controlled.

[Leo]

That sucks. That sucks. Oh, my God.

[Abub]

Oh, gosh.

[Leo]

Because, like, however you feel about the idea of like, yeah, leader is one on one combat. We see that it's not that simple, right? We see that it's not just the strongest person in the sietch. The one who can kill the best is always the nabe. We see that there is a sort of, like, unspoken idea of leadership. And ultimately, like, Stilgar was able to become nabe before he became nabe, but he only sought out that role once it was clear it would be right for the tribe, because there is that kind of ultimate loyalty to the tribe. So what Leto's doing, on some level, you could be like, oh, yeah, so no, more like one on one knife fights to the death. Sure. But also now you don't have this sort of implicit Fremen understand what's right for Fremen system, where someone can say, you know, what's right for this siege is I'm going to take over, because the one who's in charge now is too lost in this certain blah, blah, blah. Like, now you're just saying, well, we're going to do top down leadership, rather than someone coming like grassroots up, killing.

[Abub]

From a grassroots, taking their agency away from them. You know, just. You don't get to pick your Own leader. And you don't get to follow your own systems of electing a leader. Yeah, yeah, that's such a great note and tragic, you know, that. That. Gosh, Stilgar obviously didn't live to see what became of Sietabur after his passing. But honestly, having learned that would have fucking killed him, you know, like, yeah.

[Leo]

He would have died again.

[Abub]

Final heartbreak for he came back to life.

[Leo]

He's like, oh, what happened to Sietchtiper? Oh, no. Dies again. Oh, shit. He died twice.

[Abub]

Truly. Ugh. Brutal stuff. And, you know, there it is. That's the life of Stilgar Ben Fifrawi from start to finish across these two episodes. Yeah, it's honestly, gosh, it's sad and tragic when you look at it through this lens. And when you really hone in on Stilgar's life, he is truly one of the greatest to ever do it, honestly on Arrakis in this imperium. He is an incredible character, an incredible person, an amazing leader. And ultimately, gosh, when you look back at is incredibly sad and tragic that his people, his life, his universe was turned upside down. And he played a strong hand in making that happen. And I think by the end of his life, he knew that and he recognized that. And I think considering all of the characters across the Dune saga, this sort of research and discussion and these episodes we've done on Stilgar have given me some such a new appreciation for him. Because it is very clear to me that no other character in the Dune saga embodies the themes of Dune, the ideas that Frank is trying to get across, particularly in these first three books, better than Stilgar. Right. Stilgar is the warning against charismatic leaders. Stilgar is who we will become if we are to fall for populism, for charismatic leaders, for turning a blind eye rather than questioning. And so given what an incredible character he is, but also what he means for the story and its themes, I have so much respect for Stilgar, and he's quickly climbing my ranks as one of my favorite characters in the Dune saga. He was a real one. And I will say, Leo, if we were to attend Stilgar's funeral at Siege Tabura, yeah. I'd be unashamed to give water to the dead because at the end of the day, I am a friend of Stilgar.

[Leo]

Well said. Very well said. Ditto. Plus one. Plus one to that. Thumbs up, I think also. So the Sietch authority structures entry in the Dune Encyclopedia says this about the role of nabe, explaining kind of the position of power. It Is quote, the nab personified the ideal virtues of the people and is perhaps best exemplified by Stilgar. End quote. So Stilgar is this embodiment not only of what it means to be a nabe, but a nabe in its own role is an embodiment of the virtues of the Fremen people. And so when we look at Stilgar as this pinnacle example of the Fremen, it is so clear to me that Stilgar is our prime window into that Fremen culture and into them as a people. He is also maybe the main character for sure. And also for sure is a real one. I too am a friend of Sylgar. How could I not be? He was so tall and so hot.

[Abub]

So hot.

[Leo]

So hot. And did you see him comfort children? Oh my God. That's almost the hottest thing he does.

[Abub]

I was just gonna say, perhaps the hottest thing about him get you a man is how good of a dad he was.

[Leo]

Yeah, there's something really attractive about that. That's true.

[Abub]

Rawr.

[Leo]

Rawr. Well, dear listener, before we let you go, we want to let you. We want to remind you of some.

[Abub]

Ways we had to end our incredibly heartfelt and beautiful episode on Stilgar. On a horny note, of course. You know what you said the Gonjobar promise.

[Leo]

Keep in touch with us. So the two best ways to support us in our very sanctimonious ways. One is to become a patron. And two is to get yourself some Dune themed swag from our merch store. Those links are in the show notes. Seriously, without that support, we couldn't do what we do. So thank you so much.

[Abub]

And look, we love to hear from you. So send us your questions, your comments, your concerns, your thoughts on Stilgar, and of course, pictures of your cute pets. Maybe you have beautiful cat named stilgar. Send that gom jabbar podcastmail.com folks, we love to hear from you. We're super behind on emails. We're like literally years behind. We're going to sit down and get to them eventually. We read all of them and we appreciate all of them. And that's a great way to say hello and keep in touch. Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Wadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and be sure to check out the other shows on the Lore Party podcast network on loreparty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Lore Underscore Party. And we are also on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path.