Taraza's Plans in Heretics of Dune

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast – Episode Summary: Taraza's Plans in Heretics of Dune

Release Date: July 25, 2025
Hosts: Abu and Leo
Podcast Description: Gom Jabbar serves as the ultimate guide to the Dune universe, catering to both longtime fans and newcomers. Hosts Abu and Leo delve deep into every facet of Dune lore, exploring Frank Herbert's original novels, HBO's television adaptations, and Denis Villeneuve's blockbuster films. New episodes are released every other Friday.

---

Introduction

In this episode, titled "Taraza's Plans in Heretics of Dune," hosts Abu and Leo dissect the intricate schemes of Taraza, the Mother Superior of the Bene Gesserit, within Frank Herbert's seminal work. The discussion navigates through Taraza's multifaceted strategies, the key players involved, and the overarching motivations driving her actions.

---

1. Setting the Chessboard: Key Players and Their Roles

Abu and Leo begin by framing Taraza's strategies using a chess metaphor, identifying the primary and secondary pieces in her grand design.

• Bene Gesserit Assets (Black Pieces):

  • Taraza: The central strategist with multiple contingency plans.
  • Odrade: A crucial operative embodying heretical thinking necessary for the Sisterhood's evolution.
    • Leo: “She is the most important piece... she trusts more than almost anybody else in the universe to enact her will.”
  • Miles Teg: Another indispensable asset whose strategic prowess is vital.
    • Abu: “Miles Teg has been raised within the Bene Gesserit fold, but is able to criticize the institution as well.”

• Opponents (White Pieces):

  • Honored Matres: Returning from the Scattering, posing an existential threat.
  • Tleilaxu and WAF: Additional antagonists leveraging artificial melanges to undermine Bene Gesserit supremacy.
    • Abu: “The Tleilaxu are also opponents that she has to outmaneuver and defeat alongside these dangerous lost ones.”

Notable Quote:

Abu [07:16]: “Taraza is planting the seeds and watering them... making sure that they grow and continue to thrive within Odrade and Miles.”

---

2. The Why: Motivations Behind Taraza's Schemes

Exploring the underlying reasons for Taraza's elaborate plans, the hosts highlight two primary threats:

• External Threat: The aggressive actions of the Honored Matres, who are conquering planets and subjugating populations with little foresight, leading to potential extinction of human factions.

  • Leo: “Allowing a universe in which the Honored Matre are in charge is an existential danger to all of humanity.”

• Internal Threat: The risk of stagnation within the Bene Gesserit due to rigid adherence to tradition and dogma, which could hinder adaptability and growth.

  • Abu: “Taraza recognizes the value of heretical thinking... the closest lieutenants.”

Notable Quote:

Abu [25:15]: “Taraza's actions are in service of gaining intel on the enemy... a test of Miles Teg's skill to combat this.”

---

3. Adapting the Plan: Flexibility Amid Chaos

Taraza's schemes are not static; they require constant adaptation in response to unforeseen challenges:

• Leaking Information: Taraza strategically leaks information about Tleilaxu tampering to gauge Honored Matres' reactions, revealing their propensity for violence.

  • Abu [46:39]: “The brutal nature of that attack... had warned Taraza that she had little time.”

• Handling Missing Assets: The disappearance of key figures like Miles Teg and Odrade necessitates on-the-fly adjustments.

  • Leo [49:26]: “Taraza is frantically adapting throughout the book... she has to do that.”

Notable Quote:

Leo [27:47]: “Frank's a pretty good writer. It's just like hiding high-tech threats is something Taraza has to constantly counter.”

---

4. The Critical Role of Odrade and Miles Teg

Odrade and Miles Teg emerge as pivotal figures whose actions significantly influence the success of Taraza's plans:

• Odrade: Her ability to piece together the broader scheme and make autonomous, heretical decisions proves essential.

  • Abu [52:43]: “Odrade and Tag have the ability to piece together the plan... surpass even Taraza's planning.”

• Miles Teg: His strategic decisions on Rakis directly lead to the destruction of the planet and the securing of the final sandworm.

  • Leo [32:20]: “Taraza is taking lessons learned from Paul's ascendancy and getting those strategies up to Leto too.”

Notable Quote:

Abu [53:53]: “The best leaders put in position subordinates that will go against them when the time is right.”

---

5. Exploring 'What If': The Impact of Odrade's Assassination

A speculative segment delves into the potential fallout if Odrade were to be assassinated, examining how it would unravel Taraza's meticulously crafted plans.

• Potential Outcomes:
  • Collapse of Alliances: Odrade's death could lead to a power vacuum, allowing the Honored Matres to dominate Rakis unchallenged.
  • Failure of Key Objectives: The destruction of Rakis and securing the sandworm might falter without Odrade's leadership.
  • Bene Gesserit Downfall: The overall strategy to save humanity and reshape the Sisterhood could disintegrate.

Notable Quotes:

Abu [61:52]: “Assassinating Odrade would be a catastrophic failure to all of Taraza's plans.”

Leo [64:19]: “Taraza’s death would necessitate finding another heretic to carry on her legacy, which may not be feasible.”

---

6. Themes: Doubt, Adaptability, and Leadership

The hosts connect Taraza's strategies to broader themes reflective of Frank Herbert's vision:

• The Power of Doubt: Emphasizing that confidence must be balanced with skepticism to prevent institutional stagnation.

  • Abu [36:06]: “The leader of the most dogmatic institution telling you to stop being a believer and to be doubtful.”

• Adaptability: Highlighting the necessity for flexibility and responsiveness in leadership, especially amidst chaos.

  • Leo [41:55]: “Requires her to be adaptive... constantly shifting her plans amidst chaos.”

• Leadership and Delegation: Showcasing how effective leaders empower subordinates, even if their actions sometimes diverge from the master plan.

  • Abu [53:53]: “The best leaders put in position subordinates that will go against them when the time is right.”

Notable Quote:

Leo [36:27]: “The power of doubt... is how you avoid stagnation.”

---

7. Conclusion: Assessing Taraza's Achievements

By the episode's end, Abu and Leo affirm that despite numerous challenges, Taraza largely achieves her four major goals through the resourcefulness and adaptability of her key operatives:

1. Breeding Duncan ghola with Shiana: Ensuring the Bene Gesserit's genetic lineage remains strong.
2. Destroying Rakis: Eliminating the primary source of spice melange.
3. Securing a Sandworm: Centralizing spice production under Bene Gesserit control.
4. Reshaping the Sisterhood: Reforming internal structures to better face future threats.

Notable Quote:

Abu [57:55]: “All four parts of her plan do take shape in some way... thanks again to Odrade and Miles Tag.”

The hosts also acknowledge the resilience and critical importance of Odrade and Teg, whose actions often go beyond Taraza's initial plans, underscoring the dynamic interplay of leadership and individual agency within the Bene Gesserit's strategies.

---

Final Remarks

Abu and Leo wrap up the episode by inviting listeners to engage with the podcast community, share their insights, and support the show through patronage and merchandise. They tease future discussions, particularly as they move forward with Chapter House, promising deeper dives into the evolving Dune saga.

---

Notable Quote:

Abu [74:36]: “Remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe.”

---

This episode provides a comprehensive analysis of Taraza's intricate plans in Heretics of Dune, highlighting the delicate balance between meticulous strategy and the unpredictable nature of galactic politics. Through insightful discourse and engaging metaphors, Abu and Leo offer listeners a nuanced understanding of one of the Bene Gesserit's most formidable leaders.

Transcript

[Abub]

Today on the show, dear listener, we're not going to let you listen to the entire episode, okay?

[Leo]

Nope.

[Abub]

You're only going to get to hear the sections that you need to know. Our plans here on Gom Jabbar are much too complex.

[Leo]

True.

[Abub]

And only we are allowed to know the entirety of the scheme. Okay? You just need to know your part and do your part.

[Leo]

Abu's got, like, seven contingency plans. If I die. He's got so many.

[Abub]

He's so prepared and honestly, zero if I die. So let's hope.

[Leo]

Uh. Oh. All right, well, we gotta start. We'll put our heads together this week. We'll figure something out. Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name is Leo.

[Abub]

And my name's Abub.

[Leo]

Oh. And today on the show, we're talking about Taraza's plans within plans within plans within plans within plans within plans. Talking about Taraza's plans.

[Abub]

We are indeed. It just goes on indefinitely.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abub]

Now look, before we get into the nitty gritty of it all and start unpacking the spider web of Taraza's plans, let's take care of some housekeeping.

[Leo]

Very important before we dive in.

[Abub]

Starting, of course, with our spoiler warning.

[Leo]

Huge take note, listeners. Can you imagine someone listening to this? They're like, oh, this sounds safe. No, absolutely not. No, this is not safe.

[Abub]

If you make sure you have listened to the entirety of our book club on Heretics of Dune. This is in addition to all the conversations we've had on that book club. Make sure you've read the first five books of the Dune saga. We will be spoiling all of that today.

[Leo]

Indeed. Seriously, make sure you've read. We're talking about the ending, basically. So, yeah, make sure you've read Heretics of Dune. Now, as always, a huge, huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons, Daniel Dion and Seth Redding Greer. Hello, folks. Y' all are the best. We don't need to tell you that we have plans. We have plans within plans for how to keep this show going.

[Abub]

We do.

[Leo]

But of course, your continued support makes it even easier. And we cannot thank you enough. And of course, that heartfelt thank you extends to all of our patrons. Literally. You are helping us keep the lights on. You're helping us continue to do what we do here. At Gom Jabbar.

[Abub]

Now, of course, if you don't have the means to become a monthly supporter. I get it. Subscription fatigue. I was just redoing my budget the other day, just canceling a bunch of stuff.

[Leo]

Oh, I need to do that.

[Abub]

Yeah, it's okay. Check out the buy me a coffee link in the show notes below. That's where you can just leave us a one time tip of your choosing as a thank you to show your appreciation for the work we put into this show.

[Leo]

Indeed. All right, so here is the game plan for today's episode. We are going to lay out the who, what, when and where and of course, whys of Taraza's schemes throughout Heretics of Dune. Right. We get these little hints, these little morsels throughout the book, but by the end we have a much fuller picture of what she was scheming the whole time. We're going to puzzle all of that together based on different scenes that she's in, different moments that she shares, the stuff she says throughout the book and how it basically all plays out for better or for worse, whether she did she check all of her boxes on her to do list or was she left wanting at the end?

[Abub]

That's right.

[Leo]

We'll also be exploring a little what if, what if in all of these different scenarios, oh, Drade had to be eliminated. And we're going to be looking at that as a consideration toward the end of the episode. So stay tuned for that.

[Abub]

That's right. And a little peek behind the scenes for folks hearing this after the fact. We are recording this live, Indeed, over on YouTube. This is one of the benefits that our Patreon supporters get. And we will throughout the conversation today be pausing to perhaps respond to some great comments or questions in the live chat from the audience today.

[Leo]

Indeed.

[Abub]

So before we get into it, Leo, let's take a quick break. Let's compose ourselves. Let's gather our notes on this complex plan. Dear listener, don't go anywhere. When we come back, we're getting into Taraza's many, many schemes in Heretics of Dune.

[Leo]

Indeed we are. Welcome back, everybody. Hope you enjoyed your break. Let's talk about Taraza's plans.

[Abub]

Yes.

[Leo]

And to begin this conversation, let's start by laying the chessboard. Let's. Let's set the stage. Identifying the different players in Terrazza's grand design, who she intends to manipulate, who are the pieces, how, how is she moving them? And who are like the important parts and who's just a pawn.

[Abub]

Right. Exactly.

[Leo]

Now, on one side of the chessboard, we can say the black pieces. We have the Bene Gesserit and their allies, their assets, the resources they have to expend, led, of course, by the Queen Bee herself, Beyonce. I mean, Taraza. Now, Taraza has her key pieces. I wish I knew more about chess I could relate them to. I. I think the knights are pretty important. The rooks are pretty important. Maybe the bishops are important. I don't know. I feel like they're all.

[Abub]

Now you're just naming all of them.

[Leo]

I'm just naming all of them. I think the pawns are the most important pieces, but she has her two kind of general pieces, the most important pieces themselves, which are, of course, Odrade, her boots on the ground, agent acting out her orders, more or less on Arrakis.

[Abub]

Right.

[Leo]

And mortal Miles Tag, the tallest fucking man you've ever seen in your goddamn life. And he's so, so hot and so, so old.

[Abub]

What's the tallest chess piece? The. The king, I guess.

[Leo]

Tallest chess piece is probably the king. Yeah.

[Abub]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And ultimately, that's not an unfair. He is kind of the.

[Abub]

I think that's an appropriate piece for Miles. Tag.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And these two, the, you know, Odrade and Tag, they are so, so, so vital. We clearly see throughout heretics of Dune that they are the ones that. That Taraza ultimately leaves, like, all of her plans up to them. Even after her demise.

[Abub]

Oh, yeah.

[Leo]

But even if she hadn't died, it's clear that these two people she trusts more than almost anybody else in the universe to enact her will.

[Abub]

Right, Right, exactly.

[Leo]

Now, these two pieces are so important to Taraza because they in particular manifest this sort of heretical thinking that Taraza thinks is so valuable. You're not just following orders. You're not just doing, you know. How high. How high should I jump? You're going. Should I jump? Is jumping the best mortar? I have more information on the ground. What is jumping? Does jumping even exist? I mean, or are you pushing the world down whenever you jump? You know, so she is aware that their heretical thinking, their heresy, is necessary for the Bene Gesserit to thrive and to grow. And that is also part of why she elevates these two people.

[Abub]

Yes.

[Leo]

Oh, Draid, who's never gotten rid of her love and attachment. And Teg, the great heretic, capital G, capital H. And within this, consider Taraza's lesson to Ohrade and Teg in that shuttle right as they're kind of returning from the Honored Matre meeting about dependency, infrastructure, key Logs and high hydraulic despotism, subtly encouraging them toward heresy. And here's the quote. Humans have such a powerful need that their own belief structure can be the true belief if it gives you pleasure or a sense of security and it is incorporated into your belief structure. What a powerful dependency that creates. End quote.

[Abub]

Right. Oh, Dre, are you listening? Did you. Did you take notes on what I just said?

[Leo]

Stop playing on your phone. Oh.

[Abub]

Right. She could practically be talking about the Bene Gesseritzer here. Of course. You know. Yeah, I loved this quote because it clearly Taraza is planting the seeds and watering them and making sure that they grow and continue to thrive within Odrade and Miles. They both already have heretical tendencies, Right? O' Draid has all of those Atreides faults. That is her birthright as an. As an Atreides descendant. Miles, Tag has been raised within the Bene Gesserit fold, but is enough outside of it to be able to criticize the institution as well. Taraza does not want these two very important chess pieces to lose those qualities. And thus this lesson here, and thus this quote.

[Leo]

Yeah, that's such a great point. And I think also like Tag and o', Draid, in addition to being heretics, they're heretics with the kind of noble purpose, the Bene Gesserit noble purpose in mind. I think about that quote that Teg said. For whatever you could say about the Bene Gesserit, they have an admirable consistency of purpose in the universe, and it's one that he's aligned with. So this idea that these are heretics who still believe in the Order and still believe in kind of the continuity of the Order, so to speak. Well, and kind of to round out this team. So we have Odrade, we have Tag. They're kind of the generals, the most important pieces. The other important pieces, of course, are Shiana and Duncan, two very young kind of pawns. They're not necessarily in charge of, like, making decisions. They're kind of just like resources that need to get from point A to point B. But they are, of course, hyper important to her broader plans that we'll talk about later.

[Abub]

That's right. Now, let's consider the other side of the board for a second. What's going on with the white pieces on the opponent's side? On this side, we have the lost ones, basically, the lost ones who are returning from the scattering. And the white pieces consist mostly of honored Matres and their subjugated allies, which, as we know, is a growing existential threat. For practically everyone in the old Imperium, but in particular the Bene Gesserit.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abub]

I would also put the Tleilaxu and WAF on the white side of the board as well. I know that WAF is trying to play both sides, and over the course of the book, he clearly bites off more than he can chew. But as far as Taraza's plans are concerned, looking at the book through her lens, the Tleilaxu are also opponents. They are just another enemy that she has to outmaneuver and defeat alongside these dangerous lost ones, these honored matres who the Bene Gesserit are at war with. So I would also consider the Tleilaxu on the white side with the white pieces on the hypothetical chessboard that we're laying out here.

[Leo]

Agreed. I think that's definitely worth highlighting because we think about how much Odrade learns about the Tleilaxu. For the first time in Bene Gesserit history, they're cracking open this mystery. And I think that's part of what makes Odrade such an indispensable piece. Like, the information she represents is clearly why she's not just offhandedly killed. Even when she starts making some insanely bold moves, kind of against Taraza's wishes, she's doing shit that Taraza probably wouldn't sign off on. And yet Taraza can't just say, okay, pull the plug and kill her. She can't do that because, oh, Draid knows so much about the Tleilaxu. And the fact that that is even important is an indication that Taraza still sees the Tleilaxu as something to maneuver around and an opponent. So I think that's. That's absolutely spot on, for sure.

[Abub]

Yeah, I agree. Also, I think it's worth noting that there is also a force beyond the board, not necessarily a piece on the board, that Taraza is moving around.

[Leo]

Yeah, magnets in the board where you keep trying to move pieces and then it, like, shift over.

[Abub]

Yeah, look, the. The invisible flipper of the tyrant is at play throughout this whole book. Right. He's influencing events from beyond the grave, from beyond the chessboard. And this is something that Taraza is painfully aware of, incredibly annoyed by, at doing her best to counter this is critical to her plans. Leto may no longer be a actual physical piece on the board, but his actions have certainly shaped the layout of the playing field. Right.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abub]

This board is laid out the way it is, and the pieces are in the places they are because of what he did. And even if he isn't directly influencing them, his influence has a very, very long tail, and we are still on the tail end of it. And Taraza, for the entirety of this book, is doing her best to break free of that. So she's moving these pieces on the chessboard and also combating this elusive force of the tyrant that's affecting the chessboard that she's playing with.

[Leo]

Yeah. And I think there's two. Two angles to that element. Right. Like, one, Leto took over the universe using, in many ways, the playbook of the Bene Gesserit. Like, he used the missionary apartektiva, he used mythology. He became the God Emperor in a way that is very clearly formed by Bene Gesserit teaching and his vast knowledge of the long history of Bene Gesserit storytelling. So I think on some level, we can look at Taraza's maneuvering as shaped by Leto's strategy. Yeah, he's clearly very good at what he did. And I see a lot of what, especially as we talk about kind of, you know, what is. What does it mean to eliminate Arrakis and re. Establish a control over spice? Isn't that kind of just doing what Paul and then Leto, too, did? And in some ways, we see Taraza still going. Well, as much as we hate him, he still was the best chess player of all time, and he established new strategies that we can utilize in order to achieve our goals. Yeah, but then I think you're right. There is this more amorphous, more like we're not even really sure how far his vision extended. And on some level, there's that question of, did he witness what we're doing right now, and did he take that into consideration?

[Abub]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And on one hand, spooky creepy. Don't love that he's watching. Did he see me when I was picking my nose in my office right after Belinda left? It's like we don't like that feeling. But then, on the other hand, as we see toward the end of the book, that epigraph that says the Oracle creates the future. How much of this did he fully cement into place? And how much will do we have and how much can we actually break away until we eliminate, for instance, all of the pearls of his consciousness? Will that truly free humanity? Maybe. And maybe it's best just to do it, just in case. Just like, let's just be safe and make sure that the Oracle's flippery hands and whatever, the glock of Muadi isn't being waved over Our heads thousands of years later.

[Abub]

Yeah, exactly. And I think that's a great comment that you just made. Taraza isn't sure. And it's even hinted throughout the book that there's disagreement within the sisterhood about this. Is the tyrant still affecting us? Is he not? Are we still subservient to him? Do we need to break free? Should we even break free? There's much debate about this, and this is kind of an unanswerable question. We don't know. Leto didn't write in his diary. His final entry wasn't. And I'll be watching you pick your nose 4,000 years from now, Mona.

[Leo]

Oh, she's picking her nose.

[Abub]

So I think you made an absolutely poignant observation there. Like, this is Taraza going out on.

[Leo]

A limb, and she has to. That's also why so many of the chapters are her in her office going, ah, shit, this is right. Oh, do I. Oh, God. And I think that's also the angle that. That so helps me appreciate this book, because those chapters, which are so in some ways boring, where it's just her in her room thinking to herself, looking out at the orchard, going, oh, man, should I. I don't know, am I wrong? Is Balanda right? Should I do X, Y and Z? Like, those chapters are so in some ways uneventful, but I think they're at the heart of. She is not sure. And the entire book is her kind of deciding, all right, fuck it, here we go. We're going all the way with this key log dependency plan where perhaps even I might die. And if that happens, X, Y and Z will happen. So I think to wrap up this conversation about the who, the pieces and everything, there are other pieces that she's considering, other pieces that she's maneuvering. You know, we can look at, like, Shuang you. You know, we can look at Shuang Yu. We can look at High Priest Tuek. Rest in peace. Big ups to a Tuic, but one who was killed and replaced without anyone noticing. Oops. You know, they are certainly, like, complicating things, and they have to be accounted for, and their actions are, you know, whatever they. But broadly, I think we can all agree they're more or less inconsequential to Taraz's considerations. And when she's looking out at the orchards, she's not going, but what will High Priest do with Dick Menshee? Not even in her mind. She's like, ohrade Tag the Tleilaxu, the tyrant. These are the people, the honored matre. These are the pieces on the board that she's considering, right?

[Abub]

Absolutely. Now, before we move on from the who's of it all, Madison in the live chat actually posed a really interesting question about Shiana that I think is worth touching on. Before we move on to the next segment, Madison asks, would you consider Shiana a direct agent of Leto to his will since she was delivered to them by his wiggly descendant? Is that proof that Leto is still tampering with humanity to this day?

[Leo]

Here's the thing. We know Shiana is invisible to prescience because she's a direct descendant of Shiana. No, you know the name, the similar names. But yeah, no, we. He can't see her, so he could not have seen that she would happen. But maybe he was seeing gaps in his vision that indicated someone like her would arrive and this is part of his will. At the end of this book, we still don't really know how conscious his like, pearls are.

[Abub]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And from God, Emperor of Dune, we are told basically he's. It's a trap, it's a prison. It's not like he has agency as these many, many worms. So there is something happening with Shiana that we don't have an answer to. Maybe it's an Atreides quirk. It's a new evolution of communication and language and an alignment with nature. I don't know. There's lots of ways we could explain that.

[Abub]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Leo]

But I think to say that she is an extension of his will directly would be to forget the fact that she's fully invisible to all of his powers. His prescience would not have been able to give him any sight onto her agency or what she does or the choices she makes. Maybe she was just like a piece. Inevitably this will happen at some point in thousands of years, and that's part of my plan. But I don't know. Yeah, maybe. What do you think?

[Abub]

I don't know. I'm exactly where you're at too. I think this is a really interesting question that Madison posed that I frankly don't have a. I certainly don't have an answer to, and I don't even know what my opinion on it is. Syanna is a huge question mark. Her abilities are a huge question mark. That's why Shiana is so critical to Taraza's plans. The Bene Gesserit want to capture these abilities. They want to make sure those genetics are saved forever within the scope of the Bene Gesserit's influence. Whether or not that points to Leto still Directly tampering. Whether or not. I'm not sure. I like to think that Leto is not directly pulling levers anymore and that what's happening is a very, very long physics experiment. Like Leto came in and dropped a pebble in the pond of human existence. The biggest fucking pebble, like a boulder. And thousands of years later, the ripples of that are still affecting us. And I think Shiana is just a ripple effect of the giant boulder of Leto to belly flopping into the pond of humanity.

[Leo]

Monero, watch. This is going to be sick.

[Abub]

So I like to think that it's more of a. More of a. Like a consequence of the physics experiment of Leto. Like somebody knocks the ball and the ball is still rolling. And eventually that ball, it's another ball. It's another ball and becomes Fiana. I don't think Leto himself is placing the balls anymore.

[Leo]

I think another piece of this puzzle that we don't know the answer to, but is, I think, critical is at what point the Golden Path is secured. If Leto has already, at the point of his demise, secured the Golden Path, then we know there's no way that humanity could truly be extinct at this point. Like the scattering was a success and humanity will forever live. And at this point, this is all kind of secondary. Do the people that we care about, do the planets that we can name and talk about frequently, do these matter anymore? And if they do, then I would think of it as Leito set up this Rube Goldberg physics experiment. Like you're saying, ripples and results that set up the Bene Gesserit and people who he left around intentionally. He gave them enough information. He left the message for them at Dar es Balat. He set them up to be the agents who would take up his calling. Yeah. And take over the Golden Path to really, like, drive in that final nail into the construction project. And if that's the case, then his flipper may still be active right now as we're talking about it in Heretics of Dune, because he intended for someone like Odrade to find his. The Bene Gesserit have foregone their responsibilities. What is the point of life if you don't have a noble purpose? Come on, you fucking lazies. Come on. What are you doing? You know, so I do think that, like, the Daris Balat moment is very important, but I think everything after that is maybe a little bit more up in the air. Including Shiana. Including someone like Shiana. But again, would they have found Daris Balat if not for Shiana?

[Abub]

Right.

[Leo]

Getting them onto a worm and the worm taking them there. So maybe, oh, Drade is almost secondary to Shiana happening eventually. And the ticking thing that he knew would happen at some point is someone would arise with the language of the worm as part of their upbringing.

[Abub]

Yeah, exactly.

[Leo]

Who would be recognized by the worms. And then the worms would do X, Y and Z. He knows, because of whatever. So it's very, very interesting.

[Abub]

And for what it's worth, to bring it back to Taraza, this is exactly what Taraza is grappling with throughout the whole book, right?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abub]

And this is why her plan, like she is scheming the way she is scheming, these questions are driving her crazy. And her solution to it, as we will talk about later, is to blow up Arrakis. Yeah, I think this is. This was a great question, Mapsen. Thank you for that little tangent.

[Leo]

And thank you, Madison, for the follow up comment quote. He did make a splash in the end.

[Abub]

He did indeed.

[Leo]

Very true. Hey. Well, well spotted. Thank you.

[Abub]

All right, let's move on to our next segment. We've addressed the who of it all in Taraza's plans. We've laid the chessboard out, we've identified some of the important chess pieces. Now let's talk about the why. Because I think the motivations behind why Taraza is compelled to do all of this is just as interesting as the actual mechanics of the plan itself. So before we break down her schemes and walk through those mechanics of her goals and what she achieved, let's consider why any of this is at all necessary in the first place. Why does the Mother Superior feel like she has to do any of this? Why? Scheme. First and foremost, I think the most immediate motivator for all of this is the reappearance of these lost ones. Yeah, these folks coming back from the scattering pose an existential threat. And in particular, the honored Matres are on a warpath. They are capturing planet after planet and subjugating people after people in search of something or running away from something we don't know. That's still a big question mark. But we do know they are dangerous. And we have to respond or else we will be annihilated. That responsibility falls on Terrazzo.

[Leo]

And also, even if we are annihilated, the problem is they are shortsighted. They are conquering everyone with no thought as to what that leads to. And what that leads to is all of the humanity I can account for will go extinct. Yes, it is not so much that we will die. And that's the worst thing that could happen. Because I'm sure there are ways I could see a world in which she would imagine infiltrating them and kind of sneaking into their plans and kind of becoming this sort of shadow within that organization. That's a way of survival. But she doesn't do that. Because it's clear that if you just let them go unchecked.

[Abub]

Right.

[Leo]

And you don't answer these important questions about them, they might lead to the extinction of the kind of corner of the galaxy.

[Abub]

Allowing a universe in which the Honored Matre are in charge is an existential danger to all of humanity. We can't even allow that universe to exist. Hence, we wage war against them.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abub]

So keeping that in mind, when you revisit the book, you realize that a lot of Taraza's actions throughout the book, a lot of her directives to her subordinates are in service of gaining intel on the enemy.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abub]

For example, that chapter where she allows herself to be captured by an Honored Batre agent.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abub]

And Miles Teg has to go and save her. All of that was sort of an orchestrated scheme for her to learn more about the enemy, about these Lost Ones, how they operate, how their subordinates operate, what their MO Is on the battlefield. It's also a test of Miles Tegs skill to combat this sort of thing. She's, like, poking and prodding and learning what she can for the war effort.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abub]

To better situate the Bene Gesserit to combat this threat from the Scattering. And I think what's really interesting. We talked about this a lot over the course of our book club, is just how other the Lost Ones are. Just how truly alien these Lost Ones from the Scattering are to the folks in the old Imperium. We know basically nothing about them. And over the course of heretics, we learn very little about them.

[Leo]

Yeah, that's true.

[Abub]

Taraza thought about the mounting reports of the Lost Ones who were returning to their roots. A remarkable diversity of people and artifacts, accompanied by a remarkable degree of secrecy and wide evidence of conspiracy. No. Ships of peculiar design weapons and artifacts of breathtaking sophistication. Diverse peoples and diverse ways. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah. Oh, that's such a good quote. Damn it, Frank. I think Frank's a pretty good writer.

[Abub]

It's great. It turns out it shows us how little the Mother Superior of the Bene Gesserit knows about these folks coming back from the Scattering. And hence why it is so dangerous and so difficult to combat them.

[Leo]

Yeah. And artifacts. Weapons of breathtaking sophistication. For someone who knows everything that's happening in this corner of the Imperium Ixians, you know, the Ixians are on like the iPhone 295. She's seen the prototypes, because she's the Mother Reverend Mother Superior. She's seen the prototypes of the iPhone 314.

[Abub]

Totally.

[Leo]

You know, they're already. She's seen the newest shit and this, the breathtaking sophistication, the shit they're bringing back. She's like, oh my God. Yeah, it's like the conversations I've seen around like the Chinese electric cars that are just so much better than most of what we have here in the States. It's just like, holy shit, I didn't know that was possible. Right.

[Abub]

Taraza's working on ChatGPT and she's getting deep seeked by these folks from the Scattering. You know, just getting caught totally off guard by this totally alien technology. Presumably they're also human.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abub]

But what they're coming back with is wildly different from anything we have here in the old Imperium.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abub]

Tarazo, though, is smart. And she does deduce ultimately that rakis and the spice are key to this war effort.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abub]

Especially when it comes to the Honored Madre. And in fact, this is confirmed late in the book from one of Waff's thoughts. Waf thinks Rakkis was the prize the Scattered Ones really sought, and it might yet be demanded of the Tleilaxu. End quote. So Taraza is right.

[Leo]

Yeah, huge.

[Abub]

It is smart of her to focus her efforts and centralize her schemes on rakis and to make spice a central component in the war effort. That is exactly what the Scattered Ones are after.

[Leo]

We also get hints of that, as every time we get physical descriptions of the Honored Matre. They're talking about their orange eyes, the flecks of orange, and. And it's this byproduct of an inferior substance to spice, Melange. And what do the Honored Matre lack? Well, they lack the other memory. And they lack some of the abilities of the Bene Gesserit that they would have if they were awakening the way the Bene Gesserit awakened. Because they fucking don't have spice. So it's clear that this is one of those key weaknesses of the Honored Matre. Their short sighted plans, their, you know, lack of foresight. These are the things that would be solved if they had spice. So this is also their. This is like the linchpin that she needs to control.

[Abub]

Yes, exactly. Well put. And so we can see some of her Plans formulating here, right? She needs to destroy rakis. She needs to capture a worm, as they do at the end of the book. Outmaneuvering the Tleilaxu is super critical as well, because they create artificial melanges. All of this is in service of cutting off and controlling the sources of spice melange from the Honored Matre in order to gain a critical war advantage. And this war against the Honored Matre, this focus on spice, these are all key motivators in the hows and whys of Taraza's plans and why she chooses to do the things she does.

[Leo]

This is also where I see the like 400 yard shadow that Leto Atreides is casting over the universe. Because again, at the end of the day, Paul and Leto were kind of the first people to really demonstrate that if you are the one who controls spice, you control the universe. But in an era where, to your point, like the Tleilaxu have broken the spice monopoly. They are now synthesizing itself. As Teg thinks about later. It's coming from the human body. They're actually manufacturing it in the axolotl tanks. That's crazy. It's so gross, so weird. But. But that control is decentralized right now. An Arrakis can be destroyed, and it doesn't immediately, you know, end the universe. But we can see through that lens that Taraza is taking lessons learned from Paul's ascendancy to the throne and getting those uncreased Jordans up to Leto too. Also controlling the universe and creating the famine times when no one has spice and no one has as much as they need or want. We can see her kind of considering. How do I re. Establish control in this post monopoly world? Do we re establish the monopoly? You know, like, how do we do that? It's very interesting.

[Abub]

Absolutely. Dependency infrastructures. Some might say.

[Leo]

Yeah. Some very specific might say well beyond the spice. It is worth noting that Taraza is also concerned with the lingering influence, as we've said, of the worm of Leto. Right. He's casting this long, long shadow. How do you free humanity from the prophet who created the future you're living?

[Abub]

That's right.

[Leo]

And there are so many moments in the book where she is expressing this frustration about this unanswerable question. How much is he even present still? We don't know. I sometimes wonder if we've suffered any real accidents since the tyrant Taraza said, end quote. Fucking nuts.

[Abub]

What a thing to wonder.

[Leo]

The idea of like, yeah, has anything happened outside of his intentions since he died thousands of years ago. That's wild. And definitely, I imagine she's not going, oh, those are the good moments. No, those are the dark moments where she's going, do we have any agency? I'm supposed to be in charge.

[Abub]

Totally.

[Leo]

Have we just been doing what he told us to this whole time?

[Abub]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And then what does it mean to break away from that? And did we have we already? Who knows? This is also why Shiana is so important. A child who can speak the language of Shai Hulud, she can actually commune, communicate with back up worm asshole. And then the worm's like, all right, Jesus. All right, kid. You know, right. This is why she's so critical. We need a child like her to regain control over this universe.

[Abub]

Yeah.

[Leo]

This is also why she's so critical to Taraz's plans. Here's another quote. Taraza pointed at the open desert beyond the museum city's Kanat. He's still out there, Dar. I'm sure of it. Taraza turned to face a drade and Shiana speaks to him. End quote.

[Abub]

He's still out there.

[Leo]

He's still out there. At that moment, I think we get the clearest sense that we ever get in the book that Taraza is falling more on the side of the. We are still dancing to his tune and this is why this is so important again, maybe his tune says to destroy Arrakis and free humanity from his influence so that he truly is gone. Because I think that was part of his golden path. Nevertheless, she needs to do that in order to get to that true freedom on the other side of the fence. The greener grass on the other side of the fence, so to speak.

[Abub]

Absolutely. Now, to wrap up this why segment, the why of it all, I do want to zoom out and step out of the story for just a second so we can talk about just broader themes. Ultimately, as we discussed over the course of the book club, this book is about a group of people who break the status quo and through their heretical and bold and unexpected actions shake the universe. You know, change the future. It is Frank saying, do that. You know, don't be afraid to do that. Embrace the bold, the unexpected. And this is something, as we mentioned earlier, that the Mother Superior of the Bene Gesserit herself recognizes. She recognizes the value of this kind of heretical thinking, the value of having heretics not only within her organization, but literally on her right and left shoulders, like her most, her closest lieutenants. It is valuable for them to be heretics. She reminds Teg at one point in the book, quote, remember your philosopher's doubts, Miles. Beware. The mind of the believer stagnates. It fails to grow outward into an unlimited, infinite universe. End quote.

[Leo]

God damn it. God damn it. This is so good.

[Abub]

The leader of the most dogmatic institution telling you to stop being a believer and to be doubtful. Wild stuff. Taraza herself recognizes the importance of this thinking.

[Leo]

The unlimited, infinite universe. I mean, it's built out of doubt. It's built out of. I just watched Conclave.

[Abub]

Have you seen Conclave? I loved Conclave. Yeah.

[Leo]

Fuck, it was so good.

[Abub]

I mean, his speech about doubt and, like, let us hope for. I mean, ugh. I was like.

[Leo]

I had chills. The leader of this organization, the Pope in this case, but like, the leader of an organization needing to have doubt because doubt walks hand in hand with faith and how it's like, oh, it's so good.

[Abub]

I was thinking about Dune a lot during that movie, to be fair.

[Leo]

Hell, yeah. I also went from watching I Was on a plane. I went from watching the Rohiram anime, Lord of the Rings.

[Abub]

One piece of shit stopped watching it.

[Leo]

Because it was basically unwatchable. And then I went and watched Conclave, and I was like, oh, my God, this is a masterpiece. And I was like, yeah, so good. God. Voldemort really came around with a nose. He's so much nicer when he has a nose. Point is, yeah. This idea of failing to grow into an unlimited, infinite universe is so key because you can only do that if you're willing to adapt and incorporate new information and make new choices and doubt. The power of doubt, the power of not saying, I have all of the answers, and I'm so, so, so certain that is what allows you to survive. That is how you avoid stagnation. That's huge. Oh, I love it so much.

[Abub]

And again, thematically speaking, this is all in line with everything Frank Herbert ever wrote about in these Dune books, right? The minute an institution, a religion, a group of people, thinks they have all the answers and that they are the end all, be all, is the minute that you should stop following those people. Like, that's the minute they're corrupt. That's the second they're wrong. Like, to be doubtful again, speaking to Conclave, like, to have a Pope that doubts, has doubt in their faith goes hand in hand with being faithful. That that's inherent to it. And to have a Pope who is absolutely sure they are in the right at all times, because this is God's word, that is a dangerous Pope to Follow, you know, that leads you down a path of destruction, regardless of your belief. So this is all very much in line with many of Frank's warnings. And to wrap up this section, Taraso, of course, recognizes this. She is a very doubtful pope. And thus she makes some very bold moves and puts together some very unexpected plans in this book. And we are going to talk about those plans and actually get into the nitty gritty of what Taraza is scheming after a short break. So stick around, folks. We're going to dive right in after this.

[Leo]

Indeed. Welcome back, everybody. Hope you're ready to dig into the what. Hope you're ready to get your hands dirty. Let's talk about it. What are Taraza's plans? Plans within plans. We've talked about the key players. Let's dig into what her aims are. What are her goals? What is the Reverend Mother Superior of the Bene Gesserit trying to accomplish over the course of this entire book? And in a macro sense, it's very, very simple. Her goal is to save humanity.

[Abub]

Just that done.

[Leo]

Just that. It's easy, simple, simple. Very, very clean, you know. And in particular, of course, she is part of the Bene Gesserit. The Bene Gesserit is, by a margin, the most powerful organization in the Dune universe. So also, this means saving the Bene Gesserit from destruction. I think if it was clear to her that the Bene Gesserit was going to lead to the extinction of all of humanity, I do believe that her aim is about the good of humanity and not necessarily the good of the Bene Gesserit at the expense of the broader universe.

[Abub]

That's just the most effective tool she knows to use to get there, is her institution.

[Leo]

Yeah, absolutely. And ultimately, when we look at, like, that thing that they're trying to avoid, it is, of course, the threat of destruction from an external force. The Honored Matre coming back from the scattering could have been something else. From the scattering, could have been anything. But it's also the internal stagnation that's threatening to take over the Bene Gesserit. This sort of, like, conservatism and this desire to just do things the way we've always done them. And how dangerous that Galanda, relying on.

[Abub]

Those archives all the time.

[Leo]

Out here, just like, oh, yeah, well, we've got all these notes and histories and words.

[Abub]

Yeah.

[Leo]

And you've got the echoes of Leto going, oh, words suck. Words are nothing. Words don't mean it. It's like, okay, great. So generally, she's she's trying to. She's trying to kind of navigate these two threats, the external and the internal. She's got threats of stagnation internally, but also the tyrant's hold on humanity. If he was maybe overconfident and clung too tightly to the future, maybe he would himself become a threat to humanity. And she has to take that into consideration and try to navigate. What does that then encourage her to do? And I would argue that, like, even just one of these external or internal threats would be like an impossible thing to navigate without someone like Leto's far flung consciousness, his awareness of everything at all times. And also the future and also the past. You don't have the same future sight as Leito, so how do you fucking do that? And she's trying to overcome all of them together. She's trying to solve all of these problems all at once.

[Abub]

Yep.

[Leo]

Requires her to be adaptive. It requires her to be cunning and also stressed all the time. Never sleeping, just constantly, as we see. I haven't slept in six weeks. And Blonda wants another meeting.

[Abub]

Right.

[Leo]

Great. Blonde is raising her hand in the meeting. And Blonda, I'm not going to call on you. I'm not going to unmute you. So, yeah, it's a lot.

[Abub]

It's a lot. She has a lot on her shoulders as the Mother Superior of the Bene Gesserit. And so here's the plan that Taraza comes up with. This is how she's going to try and overcome those external and internal threats that face humanity in the Bene Gesserit sisterhood. As far as we can tell, there are four overarching goals that Taraza has over the course of this book. One, breed a Duncan ghola. With Syanna. Securing a powerful genetic line, both Duncan's line and Shiana's line, and her abilities. And use that influence and these abilities to the Sisterhood's advantage. Two, destroy Rakis and all of the worms except for one. Releasing humanity from the tyrant's influence once and for all. Wipe out those pearls of wisdom. Three.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abub]

That one worm you didn't blow up on Rakis. Capture that and bring it to Chapter House.

[Leo]

Throw the pokeball. Great. Probably because, I don't know, you're gonna.

[Abub]

Need an Ultra Ball for this guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Leo]

The shiny worm.

[Abub]

It's the Shiny worm. Capture him in that Ultra Ball. Bring him back to Chapter House. Guaranteeing a source of spice, which is wealth, which equates to political influence for the Sisterhood. Sort of centralizing that power from Rakis into The Sisterhood. Sisterhood's hands. That's part three of the plan. Part four of the plan. Reshape the Sisterhood to ensure their survival and to bolster their strengths against the Honored Matre and any other dangers that may emerge from the scattering. Basically, the Sisterhood is risking stagnation. And as we discussed, Taraza is doing her best to gather intel, to put the right pieces on the board in place and to change some of the dogma of the Sisterhood internally in order to reshape it into a better institution that can better steer humanity into the future and face any threats that may come.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abub]

Those are the four major parts of Taraz's plan over the course of this book.

[Leo]

Yeah, like the quote we shared earlier. You know, she's thinking about an unlimited infinite universe. And that fourth point, reshaping the Sisterhood to deal with that unlimited infinite universe is again, a huge task in and of itself. It's basically impossible. But that's what she's trying to do. Now, obviously not all of her goals play out exactly the way she clearly planned. Right from the offset. She's no Leto to Atreides, looking thousands of years in the future and accounting for everyone's whims and figuring out how much of an asshole she can be to people on a moment to moment basis. So she spends most of this book reacting and constantly shifting her plans amidst the chaos of a messy series of events on Rakis and Gamu and all of these other places. I mean, even just looking at what happens with Lucilla, Teg and Duncan, the number of contingency plans that Brismoli had, none of which work because every fucking place was compromised. It's like, yeah, shit's changing constantly. And this is why you roll with the punches and you do things here and there to kind of figure out how far gone some of those old plans might be.

[Abub]

Right?

[Leo]

For example, she. We find out, which is such a fun bombshell to be dropped on us as readers. We find out she is the one who leaks the Tleilaxis tampering of the ghola to the Honored Matre to kind of gauge their response, to see how quickly are they going to turn to violence. How much of a trigger finger do they have that's right. On their kind of power and is shocked at how quickly they pull that trigger. They're, they're just, they're like. They're like a police officer in the United States.

[Abub]

Oh, no.

[Leo]

I joke because I'm so angry at the.

[Abub]

Anyway, right there. Yeah, that's like not even funny.

[Leo]

But yeah, well, it's appropriate. So here's the quote. Man, I really. Yeah. People don't. Don't like it when we get political. Take that, the listener.

[Abub]

That's right.

[Leo]

Quote. How carefully she had time to the leaking of word to the Horrors that the Tleilax, who had built dangerous abilities into the Gola and the attack on the Gamu keep confirmed that the information had reached its source. The brutal nature of that attack though, had warned Taraza that she had little time. The Horrors would be sure to assemble forces for the total destruction of Gamu just to kill that one Gola. Wow. End quote. So she's, you know, she's kind of dipping her toe in the water only to discover there's thousands of piranhas. She is discovering how fucking violent and quick to violence they are.

[Abub]

Truly.

[Leo]

Which is pretty incredible. This is also what forces Tag, Lucilla and Duncan into hiding for months, which is crazy. This requires Taraza to adapt her plans on Rakus. You're not just getting that delivery of the Duncan, you know, a day later that. That two day shipping has been waylaid by supply chain issues. And now it's like you got Amazon going. Oh, you want the Goa delivered? It's going to be delivered at some point. We're not really sure. It's been six months. It's somewhere. Yeah, yeah, you paid for it. We took your money and it's out for delivery. But yeah, who knows?

[Abub]

There's no tracking number. Don't ask us.

[Leo]

Just be at home. Because if you're not at home, I swear to God we're gonna attempt.

[Abub]

You have to sign for this.

[Leo]

If you don't, you have to sign for this Gola. If you don't, you're not home. We're gonna send it to the shipping facility. You have to go there on your. On a work day too.

[Abub]

Yeah, right.

[Leo]

It's terrible. It's open for two hours, right in.

[Abub]

The middle of the workday, working hours, you have to show up at the warehouse. I'm glad we've had the exact same experiences at those goddamn warehouses of being in their 30s.

[Leo]

And again, this is. This is the key, right? The Gola, this like hyper important piece of all of her plans. One of these important pawns that she's moving around on the chessboard. Critical to breed with any of the other pawns. Shiana, right? He's so important and he's fucking gone. He's just missing. He's out for delivery. But you're not sure where He's. You need to. You know, you have to. You're waiting on the text alerts. Nothing. It's. It's awful. Also, keep in mind how important Teg is. Tag is one of her two most important pieces, and he's just fucking missing. And that's also where you see when she goes, where are you, Teg? What's happening? That is because over half of her carefully laid plans are just fully in limbo because they have no idea what's happening on Gamu. And all of this was because she needed information, so she leaked some information, and then that spawned all of this.

[Abub]

Right now she has to frantically adapt.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abub]

And she. In fact, she has to tell a Dread to stall on Rakis because, like, shit's hitting the fan on Gamu and this part of the plan is going to shit. I need you to stall over here. And you can see Taraza frantically adapting throughout the book. Once you understand the sort of flow, core parts of her plan and what she's attempting to do, those chapters become so much more interesting because you're as stressed as she is.

[Leo]

Yeah, no kidding. And, of course, also, one of the things that she's causing stress left and right is fucking o' Draid out here. And, yeah, you put her into her position because she's a heretic, right? She moves diagonally on the board. Kind of hard to account for it, but she's kind of going rogue on Rakis, right? She's going, I've got authority to negotiate for the entire Bene Gesserit. And you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I didn't. I didn't sign that check. What are you talking about? Nevertheless, she's creating this, like, authority. She's claiming the authority to create this treaty with the Tleilaxu, going, yeah, we'll give you breeding mothers, and, yes, we'll give you all this stuff. Well, anything you need, we'll tell you. We'll give you as much information. I'm an Atreides. You. Yeah. I'll breed with you. Sure. Whatever. You know, she's going through all of that as well as establishing this, like, racous priesthood, giving them validity, giving. Letting them be at the negotiating table. It's so much to handle. But that's what Taraza has to do. And that's part of her gamble in all of this.

[Abub]

That's right. And I really kind of appreciated. While I was scripting this, I went back and I realized how truly impressive o' Draid and Teg are throughout the course of this book. Because again, they don't know the plan. They don't know the four goals that Taraza has set out. People know pieces and parts of it and are told tiny slivers of it. But as they begin to piece it together over on Gamu, Tag is piecing together the ghola part of the plan here on Rakkis. So Drade is piecing together the the worm and blow up Rakkis part of the planet. It's all coming together. And they are choosing to follow their heretical instincts and act in ways that they feel is right here in Odrade's instance, even if it runs somewhat counter to Taraza. Tarazah, her plans did not involve, let's make an alliance with the Tleilaxu and pretend to be one of their believers.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abub]

That is a oh, Draid original idea that she throws into the middle of this already extremely complex plan. All of these plates that Taraza is carefully dangling and oh, Draid over here is like, here's another one. Here's another one. Catch this platter.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abub]

And I think it's really impressive that Odrade and Tag have the ability to piece together the plan, come up with their own adaptability in ways that even Taraza hadn't considered. And as we see how much Odraid learns from the Teledaxi becomes so critical that maybe Taraza should have considered this. It's impressive that in some ways, they surpass even Taraza's planning by just being adaptable and thinking their heretical thoughts.

[Leo]

Yeah. Freeing themselves from past prejudices and, like, and, you know, still. Still being subject to them, but being able to work with new information on the ground. I also wanted to say credit where credit's due. I think that's where we see Taraza's brilliance. That's where we see her brilliance as a leader. Because she is choosing Teg and Odrade even when she knows that they're going to do stuff. And we see her in this book frustrated by Teg not communicating. We see her frustrated at Odrade doing crazy shit on Arrakis. And yet that is why she chose us. Because even when they frustrate her and even when they do shit that I'm sure gets her in trouble with Belanda and all the people in the Zoom Call, the Bene Gesserit leadership. Zoom Call, she's like, okay, okay, yeah, I see your hand raised, Blond. Fuck. God. I get. Yes, I get it. That frustration is, I think, part. She's kind of accounting for it. She's going. I know. They are going to be the best agents I'm going to have on the ground. They're going to make the right choice in the moment. Considering our broad. Even without knowing the plan, we see that as a wisdom in and of itself. That she put them in the position of power. That she did.

[Abub]

Yeah. And this is what makes the best leaders, Right? The best leaders put into position subordinates that will go against them, that will go rogue when the time is right. And the best leaders have that trust in the people that follow them, that they will make the right decisions when. When the time comes. And those decisions won't always be in line with what I've commanded you to do. And I think much respect to Taraza for being that type of leader.

[Leo]

Yeah. It's a sign of how she came to be the Reverend Mother Superior.

[Abub]

Yes.

[Leo]

She's able to think that way for sure.

[Abub]

Absolutely.

[Leo]

Well, by the end of the book, she has this list of things, right? She has the four things that she'd like to accomplish. She, you know, again, wanted to breed Duncan Gola with Syanna. She wanted to destroy Arrakis, get one of the worms to Chapter House and reshape the sisterhood. Well, how'd she do? She kind of accomplished all of them. Yeah, she kind of checked all of those boxes basically in. In one way, shape or form, thanks again, to her generals on the ground making these key decisions.

[Abub]

Yeah.

[Leo]

The Duncan and Shiana thread, for instance. Duncan and Shiana didn't breed and probably won't. Duncan refuses to be a stud, as always. But both are secure. Both elements are secure. You haven't lost either of them. They are both secure at Chapter House in a no ship. And Duncan's genetic line, even if he refuses to cooperate moving forward, they have a child with Merbella who they're confident they're gonna. They've already basically hooked into the Bene Gesserit folder, so very likely they have the child already. They have the genetic line from this Duncan secure. Great. Number Two, right? Rack is destroyed. Hey, check that fucking box. Dune. You've heard of Dune? Yeah. It's gone. Gone now. Thanks again to Teg's quick thinking. Ted got to that planet and was like, I'm still basically awakening to my powers from, you know, one business day ago. But I'm going to do X, Y and Z to make sure this planet's destroyed. And sure enough, that piece of the puzzle is secured. And against all odds, they have a fucking worm on Chapter House, which is great, credible. They have a way to communicate with the worm. They have a way to control it. And they know how the process of converting the planet to a desert is going to go. Again, a mystery that teased humanity's understanding of the worms, which for the entire thousands of years. For tens of thousands of years. And something that Leto knew. But other than Leto, it seems that only Tag, and perhaps Taraza and the leadership at the Bene Gesserit, maybe they figured it out. Very cool. And finally, the head of the Bene Gesserit is now Ohrade. And Ohrade is famously a heretic who's kind of breaking the rules when necessary. Breaking the rules when it's beneficial to the Bene Gesserit to do so. And they have Merbella. They have. They have an Honored Matre. Wow. Already being. And again, granted, this, this all happened. The Honored Matre collecting Merbella, not something that Taraza lived to see, but what a way to get into the heads of your. One of your main antagonists. You now have one of them. Yeah, that's huge. And this is definitely going to set up maybe plant the seed for a new Bene Gesserit that can break some of those long held traditions, break some of those long held biases, and also establish new precedents, new lessons, new attitudes that can adapt for a future that has a lot of unknowns in it.

[Abub]

Yeah. Especially with a heretic like o' Draid in charge now, much to Balanda's chagrin.

[Leo]

Sorry, Belanda.

[Abub]

Dario Draid is now the Mother Superior.

[Leo]

Belanda was like, I was hoping we'd assassinate her and instead she's my boss. Not ideal. Not what I wanted.

[Abub]

Yeah, yeah. Me in November 2024.

[Leo]

That is very specific to your circumstances. So curious.

[Abub]

Well, to the country circumstances, I might say.

[Leo]

Oh, oh, true. Oh, getting political again.

[Abub]

Look at us. Naughty.

[Leo]

Wow.

[Abub]

Just a pair of heretics out here.

[Leo]

5% of our listeners are bothered right now.

[Abub]

Yeah, so there we go. All four parts of her plan do take shape in some way. Do they go exactly as she envisioned them? Of course not. But that is why the plans were. The goals were quite loose and open ended. Right. We need to secure this and make sure we do this somehow. How we do it, the specifics of it, is left up to chance and planning and adaptability. And we see at the end that in many ways, Taraza has succeeded in achieving exactly what she set out to do over the course of this book. Thanks again in great part to Odrade and Miles Tag.

[Leo]

Yeah, absolutely. Now, we're going to wrap up basically now, but I Did want to take a moment and think, because, yeah, you're right. Thanks to Odrade and Tag, everything goes wonderfully. But it's important to note that even as we were scripting this episode, the idea of, like, oh, Drade is important and is one of the generals for Taraza, and is this, like, important piece on the. On the chessboard. Yeah. That in some ways ignores the fact that Taraza multiple times considers assassinating o'. Draid. Just fully killing this, like, important piece under. You know, and how often do you do that in chess? How often do you go, you know, this bishop's getting some weird thoughts, and then you just throw the. Throw the piece off the board. Another player is like, you don't want to let me take that? Or, no, no, no, no, no. Just getting rid of it, burning it, setting fire to it on the board. You know, in one of Taraza's chapters in particular, I was thinking about this. You know, she reveals a possibility of a chain of events. This. This one possible chain of events where Lucilla was actually going to play Odrade's executioner. Right. Quote, taraza knew she could depend on Lucilla, provided Lucilla had found sanctuary somewhere with Tag and the ghola. Alternate assassins existed at the Keep on Rakis. Of course, that weapon might have to be armed soon, end quote.

[Abub]

Wow.

[Leo]

She has multiple assassins set up. You know, Lucilla's kind of prime prime assassin. Lucilla is supposed to teach Duncan how to be seductive to every woman and then eventually, probably kill a trade, maybe.

[Abub]

Yeah.

[Leo]

But then also, oh, just in case Lucilla fucks up, we got multiple other assassins in the Keep on Rakis. Just chilling. Probably. Probably acolytes, probably just like people set up to be able to take out oh, Trade if she needs to.

[Abub]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So we wanted to explore whether this is, oh, trade failing in some way. Maybe she underestimates Waff and gets killed by a poison dart to the neck. Maybe she goes too far in her heretical actions. And Balanda and the other Bene Gesserit convince Taraza, yes, we need to assassinate her. Whatever the case, let's explore this possibility. What if, oh, Jade was killed? What if Odraid died? What do we think would have happened? What do we think would have shaken out if one of the two most important pieces that Taraza is using to get her goals done. What if she's removed from the board? And this is where we've asked chat, we've asked our viewers or live viewers what they think. But I want to start off Just by asking you, Abu, what do you think would have happened if. If Taraza was forced to kill Odraid?

[Abub]

I think with the way events unfold in the book, and in particular the events that unfold on Rakkis, I honestly, I don't think Taraza would achieve even one of her goals, one of the four goals that are key to her scheming. I think it would all fall apart without a drade, frankly, if Odrade was killed, that is a little bit dependent on when in particular she is killed before and after which events.

[Leo]

True.

[Abub]

But I think Odrade achieves so much on rakis that were she assassinated at some point, the power vacuum that's left over with Odrade gone, which would presumably also lead to the collapse of this tenuous alliance she has created between the priesthood and the Tleilaxu and the sisterhood that collapses. I think that vacuum makes it very easy for the Honored Matre to swoop in, quickly subjugate or wipe out any opposition, and then quickly shore up their defenses on Rakkis and take control of the planet.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abub]

Again, depending on timing, that could even mean that Tag doesn't have enough time to get to Rakis and use Duncan and use himself as bait to get them to blow up the planet. Maybe they shore up their defenses and Teg decides I can't go to Rekk, as that would be a suicide mission. Now they've holed up.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abub]

So, honestly, my not so nuanced thoughts are like, killing Odrade would be a catastrophic failure to all of Taraza's plans. Like everything would cave in on itself, potentially spelling the doom of the Bene Gesserit Order itself. All of the things that played out.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abub]

Rakka's getting blown up, Worm getting secured. What they learned about the Axolotl tanks and the intel they gained about the Honored Matre sexual prowess that WAF was able to tell them because of their alliance.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abub]

All of that intel in the war effort, they don't have any more. I think many, many things fall apart. And even more than perhaps Taraza gave credit, much of her schemes hinge on Odrade's actions. And so if o' Draid were assassinated, I truly think we. That would be the darkest timeline, basically. And all of Taraza's schemes would collapse. How do you feel about it?

[Leo]

Yeah, no, that's definitely. That's very in line with a lot of what I was thinking. I do think it hinges on when Ohtrade would have been killed.

[Abub]

Totally.

[Leo]

Because you're Absolutely right. I think if o' Draid was killed early, I think you just move the meeting place of Shiana and Duncan to some other place. You just say, fuck it, we're bringing him here. And then you just get Shiana off Arrakis asap. And instead of Odrade showing up, you know, as Tuek is killed and as all that shit happens, instead of that being Odrade, let's say that's someone else. Let's say that's just another very skillful and very trustworthy Bene Gesserit, Reverend Mother.

[Abub]

Yeah.

[Leo]

You just say you show up, you immediately swoop up Shiana, get her onto her new ship, bring her to Chapter House. Done. And now she's just here. And then I think everything falls on Lucilla, Duncan and Tag to get eventually back. Because there is also a lot of information on Gamu that Duncan learns. Yes. And Duncan and Lucilla and Tag, they end up basically effectively capturing Merbella. And they end up, you know, like, all of that is basically done. So to some degree, I think you could still. And then when the time is right, you send Duncan as this bait to Arrakis, maybe with Shiana, just to grab a worm, grab and go. You know, snatch a worm and go kind of thing. Maybe you do that later at some later date.

[Abub]

Right.

[Leo]

And then it's just like making sure you do that before Arrakis falls the way that Gamu has. So I think. I think it is still doable if OH Trade is killed early. I think the hiccup, the problem that Taraza hadn't fully considered is how much information oh Draid got about the many Tleilax the way she did and being led to Dara Spalat and that whole thing. I think all of that means she can't. And I think that's what brings ultimately Taraza to Arrakis is I have to be the one to get this information from a trade before I decide whether or not a Drade needs to be killed. The way OH Trade gives her that information, she goes, okay, you don't have to be killed. Still keeping an eye on you, but you're all right. You're all right for now. And then I think Taraza's death is ultimately because she's there on Arrakis when the honored matre ramp up their response the way they do. And I don't think that she would have died if OH Dread hadn't basically required her to come to Arrakis herself to get that information.

[Abub]

True.

[Leo]

Which is kind of interesting. Like in the world in which oh Trade was killed or didn't gather as much information the way she did, Taraza would just still be the Reverend Mother Superior leading the Bene Gesserit until there was some good person to hand off to or, or whatever. Probably some other heretic that she wants to give. Maybe Teg, I don't know, maybe some other child of TEG who's in waiting in the wings on some faraway planet. So it is very interesting to think about. I think you're right that Odrade ends up being much more important than Taraza would give her credit for. For as frequently as Taraza's like maybe I should have her assassinated. It's like you can't. She is the most important piece of this puzzle. I think you're right. The Benning Jesuit would have been doomed if they, if they killed her there.

[Abub]

Yeah, yeah. Daris Palat, that discovery almost seems like that. That's the point. You know, everything onward from there.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abub]

Odrade is too critical and you can't get rid of her at that point. Which again, maybe that's what exactly what Leto hoped for by leaving that little email for her.

[Leo]

Yeah. Now I want to share a couple of comments that we got from Chad because again we asked our live viewers what they thought about this. And I want to point out Madison's comment. Madison says, quote, the Bene Gesserit would have an Odrade understudy in the wing. Right. They love their redundancy, maybe even Lucilla since they're phenotypically so similar. End quote. And I think that's exactly right. I think that's true. I think the contingency in which Lucilla would kill Odrade relies on Lucilla to basically take over whatever Odrade's doing, get the information from Odrade perhaps before she kills her, that sort of thing. Right? Yeah, I think that's a great point. And I also do think that in the way that Tag has perhaps multiple children that he doesn't know about, that is probably also something. They may even have more of his daughters out in the universe. Other Odrade's out there exactly as accomplished Atreides people, but just in the wings, that feels very true to Bene Gesserit planning and that feels very true.

[Abub]

And look, no disrespect to my girl, but I don't think Lucilla's got the juice to pull it off.

[Leo]

Yeah, Lucilla feels like she's pretty easily bewildered. She sees some strong armed, no nose.

[Abub]

People reactions to Basically everything that happens on gamu, and in particular, her reactions to sneaking into Yasai, Right. And seeing the realities of, like, she.

[Leo]

Sees how everybody 3 tleilaxu in a trench coat and freaks, and it totally.

[Abub]

Freaks her out and she, like, loses her control of her emotions and. Yeah, I. I just think o' Draid is such a singular Reverend Mother and you might have some redundancy planned for and in the wings, but I don't think you have other Darwi o' Draids in the sense that Odrade is Odrade and she's got the juice. I don't know that Lucilla would step into that role and just carry on as if nothing had changed.

[Leo]

No, I agree with Madison. Lucilla is unraveled, quote, absolutely bedraggled. Bedraggled. I don't even know that word. End quote. That might not even be a word. That's great. Love that. Yeah, absolutely. We got one other comment that I thought was cool. Eli says, you gotta respect the emotional composure of the Bene Gesserit, that Odrade absorbs Taraz's memories and doesn't go, bitch.

[Abub]

You were gonna kill me.

[Leo]

End quote. And that's a great point. Right. Like, at the end of the book, you know, Taraza, all of her memories, all of her plans are now part of oh, Jade. And oh, Jade has to deal with the fact that her internal voice, like, yeah, yeah, I was thinking about killing you a bunch just so often. Just every. Every other day. Honestly, I was like, oh, maybe today's the day. Yeah, like, that's wild. But for sure shows some compartmentalization, the ability to say, you know what? Honestly, in your position, I do the same because, yeah, I was making some fucking bold ass choices. Right, yeah. Fair. Fair.

[Abub]

Yeah. And in particular, you have to remember by the end of the book, oh, Drade sees the full picture of Taraza's schemes. She has listened to this whole episode start to bottom, and she understands what Taraza's four major goals were and where they currently are at this moment, and what future goals are necessary. So I think by the time she's downloaded and being synthesized in oh, Jrade's mind, Odrade kind of respects what Taraza had to do and the burden that was on her shoulders and is now, for what it's worth, on o' Draid shoulders, you know, it's not like, qed, we're done happily ever after now o' Drade has to carry on.

[Leo]

So.

[Abub]

So I think you kind of brush aside the little assassination attempt, not Even attempt, you know, just considering an assassination.

[Leo]

Yeah, I think that'd be fun. Honestly, I'd be like, oh, wow. That person was, like, thinking about all the friends you had at the keep, and you're like, oh, my God, the person who brought me tea every morning was one of your fucking assassins. Okay. Whoa. Good acting skills on that one. I should. I should. Oh, well, she's dead now because the whole planet's alive. Oh, well. But, you know, Cool, cool, cool, cool.

[Abub]

Right, Right.

[Leo]

Well, there we go. There it is. That's. Those are Taraz's plans. We will, as we've kind of mentioned, we will come back to this. We still have not yet read Chapter House, and Chapter House, as it turns out, continues the story of Dune. And so some of these conversations we'll have to have again once we're done with that book. But for now, that is everything we kind of have gathered about Taraz's plans. Of course, we may have missed little things here and there. So if you're listening to this episode screaming to the chagrin of the people around you, at us, you idiots, you forgot X, Y and Z. You forgot this point, email us. We'd love to hear from you. We'll do some mailbag episodes coming up and we'll take a look at what people send to us. So send us an email, gomjabbarpodcastmail.com if you had any observations or thoughts. Maybe you have some answers to that what if question. We'd love to hear it from you. And otherwise, we want to end this, as we always do, by reminding you of some ways to stay in touch with us and help us keep doing what we're doing.

[Abub]

That's right. A reminder, folks.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abub]

The two best ways to support this show.

[Leo]

Oh, what are they?

[Abub]

Is to one, become a patron.

[Leo]

Hot, nice, sexy.

[Abub]

And two, get yourself some Dune themed swag from our merch store.

[Leo]

Hell, yeah. Cool.

[Abub]

And if you're like, what that sounds. Both of those sound amazing. How do I do that? I want to participate in these live recordings. I want to be in the live chat. I want you to read my comment out loud.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abub]

I want to stop you dead in your tracks by writing something hilarious in the chat, which has happened multiple times over the course of this recording, folks. Those links are in the show notes below. Check it out. Become a patron. Check out the merch store. Throw us a tip. All of that helps us truly continue this show and get to create episodes like this and have wonderful conversations with our community.

[Leo]

Yeah. John Curtis said, quote, lots of balls. End quote.

[Abub]

That was in the chat at one point.

[Leo]

That was in context. It made perfect sense. It's even funnier outside of context. You know, that's. That's great.

[Abub]

Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word word of Muadib. And leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the larparty podcast network on LordParty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Lore Underscore Party. And of course, we're also on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the Golden Pack.