The Fremen Jihad

Summary

Episode Summary – Gom Jabbar: "The Fremen Jihad"

Release Date: June 19, 2026
Hosts: Abu & Leo
Podcast: Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast by Lore Party Media

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Overview

This episode delves deep into the infamous Fremen Jihad—the galaxy-shattering holy war that follows Paul Muad’Dib’s ascension in the Dune universe. Abu and Leo explore both the canonical details found in Frank Herbert's Dune and Dune Messiah, as well as rich, speculative lore from the Dune Encyclopedia. The discussion moves from the political and religious catalysts of the Jihad, through desperate battles that redraw the map of human power, to reflections on leadership, mob psychology, and Frank Herbert’s warnings about history, institutions, and charismatic figures.

Spoiler Warning: This episode discusses major plot points from Dune and Dune Messiah.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: What Is the Fremen Jihad?

• Spoiler Frame: Conversation assumes listeners know the events of Dune and Dune Messiah (03:35).

• Paul Atreides, having overthrown Emperor Shaddam Corrino, gives the Great Houses a choice: accept his rule, or face annihilation at the hands of the Fremen (05:36–06:14).

  • Quote, Abu: “Acknowledge him as the new big dog… or face the wrath of the Fremen.” (06:02)

• Many Houses refuse, triggering a 12-year Jihad that changes the galaxy forever.

  • The Jihad blends military conquest, spice-fueled economic dominance, and religious colonialism (06:30–07:00).
  • Frank Herbert gives only glimpses of this war, while the Dune Encyclopedia provides more speculative detail (07:00–07:36).

2. Paul vs. Jihan: Reluctant Messiahs, Unstoppable Movements

• Comparison with the Butlerian Jihad: Earlier episode covered Jihan Butler leading the anti-machine rebellion.
• Difference between Jihan (swept up in events) and Paul (prescient but unable to escape fate)
  • Quote, Leo: “Paul has seen visions of the Jihad since pretty early in the first book, and tries to stop it, but… discovers it is… inevitable.” (09:09)
  • Quote, Abu, citing Messiah: “From the moment the Jihad had chosen him, he’d felt himself hemmed in by the forces of a multitude…” (09:53)
  • Quote, Leo, citing Scytale: “He didn’t use the Jihad, the Jihad used him.” (10:23)

3. The Spark: Political Upheaval and Miscalculation

• Political unrest: Many Houses see Corrino’s fall as an opportunity, underestimate Fremen resolve (11:05–12:21).

• Historical context: Sardaukar once enforced order, but with boundaries; Fremen have no such restraints—see their war as religious, not political (13:36–14:09).

  • Quote, Abu (from Encyclopedia): “What seemed to the Great Houses to be a matter of politics was to the Fremen in the province of religion. The leaders… saw themselves as taking advantage… Fremen saw unbelievers defying their Mahdi.” (13:36–14:09)

• Recipe for jihad: Political chaos + religious fervor + centuries of Fremen resentment (14:21–14:59).

4. The Unleashing: Early Battles and the Fremen War Machine

• The opening salvo: The Battle of Malathon, House Mi’naut’s total destruction.
  • 300,000 Fremen annihilate forces more than ten times their number (17:52–18:25)
  • Memorable moment—the Fedaykin (Paul’s elite) weren’t even present yet (18:39–19:25)
  • Quote, Leo (from Encyclopedia): “These victories had been accomplished without the Fedaykin.” (18:39)
• The shift from “bend the knee” politics to outright religious purification:
  • Quote, Encyclopedia: "...the assurance of a secure throne for their Mahdi came to be joined by the desire for a purified empire.” (20:43)
• Fremen shock and horror at galactic decadence, leading to more radicalized zeal: Outsider “water fat asses” offend their values (21:13–23:46).

5. The Jihad Spreads: Resistance and Escalation

• Bene Gesserit manipulate the Jihad at every turn, supporting opposition and plotting assassination (24:38–25:53).
• Major campaigns:
  • The System of Molatar, where the remaining Houses, Sardaukar, and Bene Gesserit unite and are still crushed after the Fedaykin join the fray (26:56–28:08).
  • Quote, Encyclopedia: “The presence of the Sardaukar made the battle a struggle. The Fedaykin made the battles a victory for the Fremen.” (27:45–28:02)
• Despite Fremen dominance, battles are costly and “a struggle,” leading to disillusionment among some Fremen (28:42–29:49).

6. The Bloody Climax: Religious Zealotry and Aftermath

• The rise of the Fremen priesthood (Kizara Tafwid) shifts the Jihad from rebellion suppression to religious conversion/purges (32:16–33:37).
  • Quote, Encyclopedia: "One may be able to tell when rebellion ends, but who can say when all believe?” (32:17–33:37)
• Paul’s own grim confession to Stilgar: 40 religions eradicated—most after the battle of Molatar (33:38–34:06).
• Priesthood and power-hungry actors like Korba assume control, driving violence to new, unforgivable extremes (34:05–34:52).
• The old order is eradicated: The Bene Gesserit and Spacing Guild survive only as shadows/pawns; the Landsraad is shattered; CHOAM utterly dominated by Paul (35:53–36:53).
  • Quote, Encyclopedia: “CHOAM was dominated by the new emperor to an extent that House Corrino had never considered.” (36:05)
  • Reflection, Abu: “That carries the weight of 10,000 years of Corrino power… and Paul does what the Corrinos never dared to do.” (36:34–36:53)

7. Deeper Connections: Paul & Jihan, Human Nature & Frank’s Warnings

• Both leaders reluctant, seeking to minimize bloodshed but caught in forces beyond control (37:14–39:33).
• Frank’s warning: The danger is not only in charismatic leaders, but also in “mob psychology” and the inability to stop the forces they unleash (39:33–41:45).
  • Quote, Abu: “Blindly following charismatic leaders is dangerous. Both Paul and Jihan illustrate how badly things can go when legions just follow unthinkingly…” (39:51–41:45)
• Both leaders’ good intentions ultimately don’t matter; their legend far outpaces them.
• Circumstances, personal loss, and societal stagnation shape such messiahs (41:45–44:07).

8. The Role of Religion and Myth

• Religious structures always escalate violence and co-opt initial purpose (45:09–46:51).
  • For Jihan, the priestesses of Gyubebe; for Paul, the zealotry of the kizarate—both elevate their leaders to godhood.
  • Ordinary people, through charisma and circumstance, become the justification for atrocity (46:51–47:19).
    • Quote, Leo: “You say, oh, I had to do this because Paul Muad’Dib Atreides is our ruler, our messiah. It’s all for him. It’s like, oh, okay, great.” (46:42–46:51)

9. Frank Herbert’s Meta-Theme: Violence, Oppression, and the Cycle of History

• Did Frank simply warn against charismatic leaders, or is there a biological/societal inevitability to revolution?
• Quote, Abu: “Frank even uses biological language… [the Butlerian Jihad is] a thalamic pause for all of humankind… it’s instinctual.” (48:33–50:42)
• Paul’s vision reflects cyclical, genetic mixing—the “one sure way” being Jihad (50:06–50:37).
• The Dune Encyclopedia gives tidy historical explanations, while Frank frames the Jihad as humanity’s reaction against dehumanization—society strips humanity; humanity rebels. The cycle repeats (52:16–53:39).

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Most Notable Quotes & Moments

• Leo (Scytale’s words, 10:23):
  “He didn’t use the Jihad, the Jihad used him.”
• Abu (Messiah, 09:53):
  “Any delusions of free will he harbored now must be merely the prisoner rattling his cage. His curse lay in the fact that he saw the cage.”
• Dune Encyclopedia (13:36):
  “What seemed to the Great Houses to be a matter of politics was to the Fremen in the province of religion. The leaders... saw themselves as taking advantage... The Fremen saw unbelievers defying their Mahdi.”
• Dune Encyclopedia (32:17):
  “One may be able to tell when rebellion ends, but who can say when all believe?”
• Abu (50:06):
  “They were all caught up in the need of their race to renew its scattered inheritance, to cross and mingle and infuse their bloodlines in a great pooling of genes. And the race knew only one sure way for this. The ancient way, the tried and certain way that rolled over everything in its path. Jihad.”

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Key Timestamps

• 05:36 – Paul’s ultimatum to the Landsraad; birth of the Jihad
• 07:36 – Encyclopedia on Paul’s unique role versus Jihan Butler
• 10:10 – Paul’s “prisoner rattling his cage” depression
• 13:36 – Political vs. religious framing of the Jihad
• 16:18 – Malathon & House Mi’naut obliterated
• 20:43 – The goal of the Jihad shifts to purity, not just control
• 24:52 – Bene Gesserit opposition and intrigue during the Jihad
• 27:45–28:42 – The great campaign at Molatar & the deployment of the Fedaykin
• 32:17 – Kizara Tafwid and the escalating religious conversions/purges
• 33:38 – 40 religions eradicated; religious killing spirals out of control
• 35:53–36:53 – Aftermath: old powers destroyed; a new, absolute Atreides order
• 39:51–41:45 – Frank Herbert’s warning about charisma and mob psychology
• 50:06–50:37 – The genetic/cyclical nature of war and mixture in Frank’s view
• 52:16–53:39 – Meta-reflection: historian vs. author perspectives

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Tone and Memorable Moments

• Banter and Humor: Light, self-aware, with running jokes about “uncreased Jordans” and “water fat asses.”
• Analogies: Comparing Paul to Jesus, poking fun at Dune’s tragic emo vibes, and re-imagining epic battles with pop culture references.
• Depth: Candid engagement with historical cycles, institutional failure, and Herbert’s existential ideas.

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Conclusion

The Fremen Jihad, as detailed and mused upon by Abu and Leo, is not merely a backdrop of violence in Dune, but a vehicle for Herbert’s deepest fears and fascinations: with leadership, faith, history’s cyclical cruelty, and humanity’s unbreakable drive to rebel and renew. The episode expertly weaves canonical fact with speculative history, delivering both rich insight and the hosts’ signature humor, making it essential listening for any Dune fan seeking to understand the meaning behind the blood and sand.

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For questions, feedback, or to join the conversation: gomjabarpodcastmail.com

Transcript

[A]

Today on the show, we're done smashing our iPhones, so now it's time to smash the very institutions that took their place.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

We're getting into the Fremen jihad today, folks.

[B]

Oh, hell, yeah. I've got my pitchfork. I've got my torch. I got my. That's all you need is that. That's all?

[A]

That's all.

[B]

Okay, I brought snacks.

[A]

We'll provide the rest.

[B]

The snack's important. I feel like the snacks have got to be important. Welcome to Gom Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies, and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name is Leo.

[A]

And my name's Abu.

[B]

Oh. And today on the show, we are talking about the jihad under Emperor Paul Muad di Batreides.

[A]

Never heard of him.

[B]

Me neither. But apparently he's pretty powerful. Very exciting to talk about this today. On the last episode, we talked about the Butlerian Jihad, this important formative moment in the galactic history of Dune. And now we're talking about another huge beat. But before we get too far into it, let's take care of our housekeeping, as always.

[A]

Yes, our last episode focused primarily on events that took place thousands of years before the first book. But today's gonna be a little bit different. So as a spoiler warning for today, we highly recommend that you have read both Dune and Dune Messiah. That is the first two books in the Dune saga. That is the spoiler territory that we will be diving into for today's conversation.

[B]

Indeed. Now, as always, before we get into it, we need to give a huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons. Daniel Dion, Seth Redding Greer Brad Hutchins, Kevin Mohinram, and Roger Young. Fellas, when the historians write about Gom Jabbar and everything that we did, they cannot help but include your names as our sort of fedeken, if you would, making sure each of these battles turns out exactly the way of course we want them to go. You are our success. Thank you so much for the support you give. And that, thank you, honestly, does extend to all of our patrons at every level. Thank you. Truly, truly. You keep our lights on, and we could not do it without you.

[A]

And you spread the good word as our warriors on the frontiers of the Imperium. So that's important, too.

[B]

The good word. Agam Jabbar.

[A]

Of course. Folks, we understand that times are tough right now. Strait of Hormuz. As of this recording, still not open. And so we get it. If you don't have the means right now to be a monthly ongoing supporter of the show, that's totally a. Okay, you. You have other options to show your appreciation, namely the buy me a coffee link down in the show notes below. Check that out. That's a great place to just toss us a one time tip of whatever amount of your choosing. It goes a long way into helping us continue to do what we do on this nerdy little show.

[B]

Indeed it does. All right, the game plan for today's episode. So, as we said, we talked about the Butlerian Jihad last episode. So now we're breaking down what we know about the Fremen Jihad that takes place between Dune and Dune Messiah. Today we're going to be borrowing both from Frank's own writings and of course, the Dune Encyclopedia. We're going to talk about Jihan and Paul Muadib Atreides, kind of comparing these two important characters. And finally, we're going to wrap up by taking a step back and. And exploring maybe what these themes mean in Frank's broader messaging. But before we get into it, let's take a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Dear listeners, when we're back, we're talking about the Fremen Jihad.

[C]

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[A]

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[C]

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[A]

Welcome back, folks.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

Okay, without further ado, let's unleash the hordes of Fremen warriors on the galaxy and talk about Paul Muad'dib's Jihad.

[B]

Yeah, let's do it.

[A]

So, assuming that you paid attention to the spoiler Warning. We're gonna assume you have read Dune and Dune Messiah and thus you know that at the end of the first book, having stolen Shaddam Korino's throne, his daughter's hand in marriage, and of course, his extremely valuable uncreased Jordans.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Paul gives the Landsraad a choice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Acknowledge him as the new big dog of the universe.

[B]

Woof, woof, woof, woof. That's what it is.

[A]

Or face the wrath of the Fremen.

[B]

Right.

[A]

As we all know, many of the houses, major and minor, refuse to bend the knee, which then kicks off an absolutely brutal jihad that spans the 12 years between dune and Dune. Messiah.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We know very few details about the specifics of the Jihad, but what we do know from Messiah is that it was pretty much all encompassing. A mix of military conquest, the spice monopoly and religious colonialism brought all but a fraction of the human universe under the Atreides rule and under specifically Paul Atreides rule beyond that. Frank didn't give us many details about those 12 years. We see glimpses of it from the Fremen experience through characters like Farouk and Messiah. We're given some facts and figures by Paul himself in a conversation with Stilgar, which we will touch on a little bit later. But the actual events of the Jihad, what actually took place day to day, month to month, over those 12 years is pretty much left to our imagination. Luckily for us, the Dune Encyclopedia exists and it has one banger of an entry about the Fremen Jihad that helps us color in some of those lines.

[B]

Well, the encyclopedia entry poses a fascinating question. While Jahann Butler was an extraordinary woman, of course we just spent a whole fucking two hours glazing her on the last episode. She was still merely a woman swept up in great events, right? The Comans, the Richesians, these were things that existed before her that she kind of ended up tapping and catalyzing into the belly and Jihad. And again, most of it happened after she died. She was only part of it for 20 years. Meanwhile, Paul Muad'dib, he was there the whole fucking time. I mean, ostensibly he was in charge the whole jihad.

[A]

According to the trailer for Dune Part 3, on some of the battlefields, himself,

[B]

Literally, yeah, leading the charge. His beautiful curly locks plastered to his porcelain, gorgeous face. That's Paul Muadi of Atreides. Of course, Paul is kind of a one off case. He's a messiah. He's a one of a kind ability to know what the future holds. And. And the encyclopedia poses this question, how in the world. Could he have even been swept up the same way Jahan was? Given that he knows the future, you know, you say, oh, this guy's got fucking superpowers. You're telling me superpower guy is powerless to. That doesn't sound right.

[A]

Faster than a speeding bullet. But a mineral brings you to your knees.

[B]

That doesn't make. What the fuck? That's not gonna be a successful comic series for years and years. Now, of course, we as students of Dune, we as huge fans of Dune, know that Paul has seen visions of the Jihad since early, pretty early in the first book, and tries to stop it, but alas, discovers that it is, as far as he's concerned, completely inevitable. Very, very depressed. Paul Muad'dib Atreides reflects on this in Messiah. From the moment the Jihad had chosen him, he'd felt himself hemmed in by the forces of a multitude. Any delusions of free will he harbored now must be merely the prisoner rattling his cage. His curse lay in the fact that he saw the cage. End quote. Damn. Evanescence lyrics from the 90s. That was fucking great.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Very melodramatic. So emo. But I mean, fair. He is a tragic character. He sees the cage, he sees these visions and can do nothing about them.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I also am so glad you pulled this quote, Scytale fucking swinging in with a bar from left field. Scytale sums it up in just nine words. Quote, he didn't use the Jihad, The Jihad used him.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Reversal bar. Kendrick, Scytale, Lamar. My God. Now, the Dune Encyclopedia explains that several factors, of course, coalesced to force Paul into this position.

[A]

That's right. So let's dig into what the Encyclopedia has to say and what some of these factors and forces were that unleashed the Jihad upon the galaxy and upon Paul Atreides. The Encyclopedia explains that the first and perhaps the biggest factor was political. As we stated earlier, many of the great houses did not bend the knee to the new emperor. And in fact, they saw this upheaval of a 10,000 year dynasty as an opportunity to declare their own independence from the Imperium and to chase their own ambitions.

[B]

Yeah, totally.

[A]

Like, this is our moment, let's grab it. We've been under the Sardaukar thumb, under the Corrino thumb for so many years. Yeah, this upstart kit has shown up and thrown everything into chaos. Now's the time where we flex.

[B]

Literally. What could go wrong?

[A]

Nothing could go wrong.

[B]

I mean, it's taking candy from a baby. Does that baby have A knife. Oh, shit. Oh, no. Oh, no.

[A]

And that is essentially what happens. We're joking here, but this is a wildly inaccurate read of the situation. Yeah, These Great Houses did not correctly read the room because here's the facts. Historically, the threat and control of the Sardaukar was reined in by just simple practicality. If a Great House acted up a little bit, it's like, you know, it's whatever you send the Sardaukar, you slap them around a little bit, you put them back in their place. But rarely is an entire faction or rebellion utterly wiped out. And there was a bit of security in that. Right. Like Great Houses knew that. You know, you fuck around a little bit, maybe you even find out. But you're not going to totally get wiped out by the Karinos. That would be crazy on their part to do that.

[B]

Yeah. That's also why in the first book, it's so important that the Corrinos dress their men as Harkonnens. Right. Like the Sardaukar in Harkonnen uniforms. Because if it's seen that they are wiping out a House like House Atreides, the power shift will dethrone them. So it's a tenuous grasp of power. And of course, with that in mind, it's like, oh, yeah, they do have a very powerful army, but it's not a tyranny. It's not. They're not. You know, there is an emperor, but he's not all powerful. Right?

[A]

Yeah, there's a tension of power there for sure.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Here's what changes when Paul muadibetreides takes the throne, though his Fremen forces have no need for any of that restraint. What seemed to the Great Houses to be a matter of politics was to the Fremen in the province of religion, the leaders of the great Houses saw themselves as taking advantage of a moment of political flux. The Fremen saw unbelievers defying their Mahdi. End quote.

[B]

Ooh. Yeah.

[A]

That difference of perspective and that incorrect reading of the room by the Great Houses is what ultimately leads to their downfall.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So essentially the recipe, if we were to simplify it down, essentially the recipe of the jihad was a little bit of politics thrown into the pot. You mix in a couple of spices known as religious fervor from the Fremen and then of course, you have that bitter, bitter taste in there of the pent up resentment of an oppressed people. And so there was this pent up energy that was already prepared to explode outward. And the religious and Political forces just unlocked that door.

[B]

Yeah. Like I think, let us not forget the near. I mean, the hundreds of years of fucking off worlding great houses coming in and just fucking with Fremen. All the goddamn time they're out here living their lives on one of the harshest planets in the fucking universe. And then you've got Harkonnen people like, I don't know. It's just, I think sometimes that gets lost in the mix. Right. It's just the fact that they have been living harassed by off worlders for so long and now they're literal. Thousands of years of religious prophecy has been fulfilled and they're like, savior is here. And that's the key. That's the key to everything that's about to happen.

[A]

Yeah. I believe in one of our recent episodes, it could have been a mailbag, it could have been something else. I forget. But we made the comparison to Jesus in the Second Coming. Imagine Jesus actually arrives like that alone is going to be such a motivating force for countless people to do things that maybe they never would have imagined themselves doing before. That is what it feels like to be a Fremen on Arrakis who believes in Paul Muadi. Betrayed.

[B]

Yeah. So true. Well, let's get into the Jihad, then let's talk about how it starts. And this is really where again the Dune Encyclopedia is delivering us some ooey gooey anecdotes from this chunk of missing time. In Frank's own writings and the beginning of the Jihad proper can be marked by the conquest of the system Malathon, which is ruled by the great house of the Mi'. Naughts. And have you ever heard of the Mi', naughts? Abu?

[A]

I have not. I have m'. Knaught.

[B]

I also have m' naught heard of these fucking guys because, well, spoiler warning. They are gone. Oh, oh no. They are McSold out at McDonald's. The McNaughts are Mc no longer. Well, they were at the time one of the most powerful and cautious of the great Houses. Right. So Paul has taken the throne. They have refused to bend the knee. They are one of the most powerful and most cautious of the great Houses. They had a sizable, well trained army and they had three lesser houses also backing them in nearby systems. So this is a formidable force, right? A formidable army with a formidable leader. And in the end, all it took was 300,000 Fremen fighters.

[D]

Wow.

[B]

And both systems, the entire army might of both systems completely obliterated by the 300,000 Fremen fighters. This is a force less than a tenth the size of the force that it won over. So we don't know exact facts and figures, but 300,000. So that's about 300,000 Fremen took down over 3 million troops of one of the most powerful houses.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

Fucking insane. Yeah.

[A]

That is wild.

[B]

One last button on this little story about the McNaughts in Malathon. I loved this. I mean, the Dune encyclopedia authors are great when they aura farm a little bit.

[A]

Yeah. Yep.

[B]

Here's the kicker. Quote, had the remaining great houses, but known it. There was more to fear. These victories had been accomplished without the Fedayken. Oh, fuck. Literally, like you just lost a Digimon battle to Tai and Agumon and he didn't even digivolve. And the other great houses don't even know that the Fedaykin exist. So they're going, oh, fuck, that's really scary. But. But literally Paul's elite, the best Fremen fighters in the universe, weren't even fucking present at roll call at this unheard of victory. Insane.

[A]

Insane. Incredible stuff. And according to the encyclopedia, this is essentially like the first bullet of the jihad. Right? Like, this is the first sense that the great houses are getting that all is not well. And maybe these like grand declarations of independence and not bending the knee to the new emperor was a mistake.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now the encyclopedia continues because we get mention of another very important and historic battle in the Fremen Jihad. Malathon was just the first of many victories for the Fremen across the galaxy. And as this jihad began to spread, the goal of the jihad also began to drift away from its original political source. Right. We just got to get these great houses in line. Bend the knee. That was the original goal. But as the flames are fanned, the vibe shift is noticeable. Quote. As time, worlds and lives of millions and then billions past the religious motivations of the Fremen came to play an ever greater part in their battles. Slowly, the assurance of a secure throne for their Mahdi came to be joined by the desire for a purified empire. End quote.

[B]

Dude, that's horrifying. So scary.

[A]

That's so scary. And the encyclopedia notes that part of this motivation, you know, they didn't just like flip a switch and suddenly become zealots. Part of it is the Fremen are suddenly exposed to a universe they've not interacted with for generations.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And what they're seeing out there is like heretical in their eyes. You know, all These water fat asses and like, no water discipline. And like, what they're seeing is just so antithetical to their belief system and their worldviews. And because they're the ones in power, they get to walk around with their weapons and say, you're doing it wrong. You have to do it like us, because this is what we believe. And so that was sort of the seed that began to grow into this, like, zealotry.

[B]

That's such a good point because we will talk about Jehan Butler and Paul Malady, even the kind of comparisons there. But I think that Dune encyclopedia even brings this up. This idea that the Fremen were so offended by some of the things they were seeing on these planets, as if they were the Comans arriving on riches and seeing people turning over all their shit to AI and the Fremen who value the ability they have. Amtal right, you learn the extent of yourself and the people who are important to you and your equipment. Because every goddamn day is a life and death struggle for the Fremen on Arrakis. And then they're seeing these bouncy water fat asses just bouncing around, just jiggling and jiggling. And yeah, it's a delightful music video out there. But again, jokes aside, they are disgusted, I'm sure, by the waste, by the weakness, by all of the qualities that determine for Fremen by necessity whether or not you will live to see tomorrow. They're seeing shit that just is inexcusable on these other planets. And they are not given enough time because they are conquerors, they are traveling warriors. They're not being given enough time to spend time on these planets. And understand, I think where we see characters like Fyrakk. Fyrakk had enough time in the Jihad to recalibrate to the point where he could go into the ocean and come out a reborn man. I don't think that's the case for many of the Fremen, especially in the early parts of the Jihad. Totally where they're arriving on a planet and then you just imagine seeing everyone doing something that is inexcusable with no context. It's like, well, yeah, I mean, it's not enough for them to be loyal to our Mahdi. We need them to die because they are a risk to everyone. They are a risk to the tribe if we let them live.

[A]

Yes, completely.

[B]

In the same way that on Arrakis, if you are a blind old man, we send you out into the storm. Because a blind person on Arrakis is a threat to the entire tribe is a water threat. So it's like, I think that is also really huge. During one of our last mailbags, someone asked about the motivations of the Fremen because we don't really see them. They're not sending people into Arrakeen, you know, spreading the good word of the Fremen religion. Like, come, sir, have you ever wondered if you wanted purpose in your life? You know, come to the desert. We're all very dry, very sticky. They're not doing that. But I think that when you view the jihad through this lens of the absolute inexcusable debauchery from the Fremen perspective, it starts to make a lot more sense. For sure.

[A]

For sure. I think that's a great read on it. Now, of course, the Fremen's religious fervor puts them in direct competition with the Bene Gesserit. Ever heard of them?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

The encyclopedia explains that the Bene Gesserit spend most of the jihad doing their best to tip the scales against Paul, supporting whatever ragtag groups are out there that are still fighting against the Fremen, whatever religious groups are out there that are still preaching against Paul Muadib's religion. The Bene Gesserit are putting their support behind these groups in an attempt to stem the tide, but also in an attempt to overthrow the Emperor. Messiah is entirely about a conspiracy to assassinate the emperor. That is a Bene Gesserit goal from the very start of the jihad. Their hope is to get rid of this faulty Kwisatz Haderach that did not work out as planned. Get rid of this guy, take his genes and start the program again. Try and actually get a real Kwisatz Haderach up and running that actually follows our commands and achieves our goals.

[B]

Can I just say, we've made so many jokes about uncreased converse that when you said, take his jeans, I was really thinking Levi's. Like, we gotta fucking kill this guy. Steal his American Eagle jeans.

[A]

His.

[B]

That's a bad brand these days. Yeah, steal his Levi's. Steal his. Like, you know. Yeah, we gotta leave the shoes. The shoes are tainted. That's bad blood. Yeah, but the jeans. Ooh, good pants.

[A]

We need those. Put those pants on the Neo Kwisatz Haderach. You know, they're gonna look good.

[B]

Are these used? These are Hand me down. Who wore them? Why are they wet?

[A]

They're Hand me down from. Don't worry about it. Yes, they're used. Don't worry about where they're from. Now the encyclopedia tells us about one of the most important battles in the entire 12 years. With the help of the Bene Gesserit, the forces of the Landsraad Houses that had not yet been defeated met the Fremen legions in the system of Molatar. End quote.

[D]

Wow.

[B]

So like a unified attempt rather than these like one off battles and these one off being conquered. This is like a let's form a resistance, giant space battle sort of situation.

[A]

Right. And that's essentially how it's described in the Encyclopedia. Molatar is described as one of the greatest campaigns of the Fremen Jihad. This like battle of unreal proportions. Paul and his Fremen against whatever is left of the forces of the Landsraad, the Bene Gesserit, even the Sardaukar, all of them banding together to say, we gotta put up a stand, we gotta stop these Fremen and we gotta stop this new emperor, which is noble and admirable. Good on them for, you know, creating this alliance and really sticking by their beliefs.

[B]

Alas. Oh, no.

[A]

Quote, the presence of the Sardaukar on the side of the Landsraad made the battle a struggle.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The Fedayken.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Made the battles a victory for the Fremen. End quote.

[B]

Oh, God. Classic. More aura farming for the fucking Fedayan.

[A]

Incredible. Incredible. Also I think notable that the Fedaykin weren't deployed to this battlefield, like when faced with unified resistance from these disparate groups. Sardaukar, Bene Gesserit, the Great Houses. It's no longer just, nah, send a couple of battalions of regular Fremen troops. They'll handle this. No one can actually compete against us, but okay, this is a real battle and it's going to be actually tough. Send the best of the best, send the Fedaykin to the front lines and ensure victory. Which is exactly what they did.

[B]

Yeah. I also see in between the lines, I think it's so easy to talk about the Fremen Jihad as this like, lossless sweep of the Fremen across all of the known galaxy. But the reality is, in even this, the battles were a struggle. There were losses on both sides. And I think that that's also key to understanding characters like Farrokh in Dune, Messiah, and parts of the Fremen who then become conspirators against Paul are people who went out under his command and became disillusioned through loss of battles and these horrific wars and things like that. So I also really wanted to highlight that these battles are a struggle now, again, it's kind of written in a way to be like, and the fucking Fedayken came in and they won. And it was easy, you know, but the reality is like, there were struggled, there were hard fought battles among the many victories. And that is another piece of the puzzle in understanding the plot of Messiah. Of course, right?

[A]

That's right, yeah, absolutely. It's not that the Fremen just swept across the galaxy and everything was easy. There was bloodshed, there was violence, there were losses on both sides. And that explains where characters then end up at the end of those 12 years in Dune Messiah and why they are who they are. So before we wrap up the jihad, let's take a quick break. So far we've learned about the outbreak, the political machinations and the religious fervor that took hold. But I think what we're going to talk about next is actually maybe the most astounding part of the jihad, because how things wrap up and how they come to a bloody conclusion is truly unbelievable. So stick around. We'll be right back after a quick break to talk about the end of the jihad and break down some comparisons between Jahan Butler and Paul Atreides. We'll see you in a minute.

[B]

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[D]

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[B]

welcome back everybody. Oh, I hope you enjoyed your break. Let's talk about the end of the jihad, because this is where. This is really where the story falls back onto familiar rails as we are carried toward the end of the 12 year period of the jihad. Between the two books, the newly formed Fremen priesthood under Paul's religion really starts taking the reins in steering the events of these new battles These new conquests.

[A]

Right, yeah.

[B]

This is a quote from the Dune Encyclopedia quote, the Kizara Tafwid regarded the jihad as the means of spreading their religion, so that what had begun as a response to rebellion had become a vehicle of conversion. One may be able to tell when rebellion ends, but who can say when all believe? End quote. Which is, you know, just such a telling line. We are talking about the sort of the shifting goalposts of the jihad. Initially you were unifying under a single ruler. Again this time it's Paul. Then it becomes more about, we're going to purify the universe so that people, these heretics, these filthy debauchers aren't going to, you know, be a problem for our holy Messiah. And now in the third phase, it is more a matter of we need to convert everyone so that they all underst. They're all part of our belief system. And if they don't, this is where we wipe them out. And this is where. This is where the loss of life really starts skyrocketing. And I thought that this was, I mean, just kind of crazy to think about.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In Dune Messiah, right, Paul tells Stilgar that he wiped out, during his jihad, 40 religions, the followers of 40 religions. And the Dune Encyclopedia adds that most of those. Most of the 40 religions that were fully eradicated during the jihad were eradicated following that giant battle of molotor that we were just talking about.

[D]

Wow.

[B]

And really, that just tells us. Yeah. That the religiously motivated killing and converting is skyrocketing in the last years of the jihad. Another interesting point to consider and I think also something that is going to draw some connective fibers between Jihan and Paul, where you have the priesthood and people who are not necessarily Paul, people like Korba, who are maybe power hungry for their own ends, taking the reins and kind of pushing those kind of plans forward. Right, right.

[A]

This is the part of the jihad that makes Satel's quote that we read earlier come true. He didn't use the jihad, the jihad used him.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, like, once the Kizara are a part of the equation, once this religious fervor is added into the pot, into the soup, that is where things. Things were already horrible, but this is where things become unforgivable. You know, this is what makes this jihad so infamous. And ultimately, as we wrap up here at the end of 12 years, by the time the jihad has concluded, essentially concluded, the universe, the imperium, humanity has been changed forever. This intricate web of powers that used to exist within this society has been utterly demolished. The Bene Gesserit survived as an order, but not as a power. The Spacing Guild survived, but only as a pawn of the emperor. The Landsraad was a shell. And Choam was dominated by the new emperor to an extent that House Corrino had never considered. End quote.

[B]

I kind of love that last bit. The idea that, like House Corrino hadn't even considered this level of tyrant tyranny. It's like, oh, man, we could have. How much money could we have made? Oh, fuck. Oh, no. We needed to be more creative, I guess. Good Lord.

[A]

Truly. Yeah. I think that last line is what's powerful because remember folks, the Karinos ruled as emperors on and off, give or take, for almost an unbroken 10,000 years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so for a historian in the Dune universe to write that Choam was dominated in a way that the Carinos had never even considered, like that carries the weight of 10,000 years of Kirino power.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Paul comes in and does. Does what the Karinos never dared to do. Yeah.

[B]

Crazy.

[A]

That is how fundamentally this universe is changed by Paul, by the Fremen, and by this 12 year jihad at the end of it. There's one religion, there's one army that matters, there's one ruler, and it's mission accomplished. That's the Fremen jihad.

[B]

It is indeed. Now, of course, we have been a little bit doing this already, but we wanted to, now that we've talked about some of what we missed from Frank's writings. Right. The years between Dune and Dune Messiah, we now have more information about the events as they took place under Paul's reign. And this also empowers us now to draw more comparisons between Paul and Jihan. So we wanted to zoom out a little bit and touch on a couple of these interesting. Through lines between that Butlerian jihad that happened 10,000 years ago and the Fremen jihad that happened between Denis Villeneuve's second film and his third film, basically. And first, it is very obviously the case that both Paul and Cihan were in some way reluctant leaders. Right. In their respective jihads, they both resisted that gravitational pull toward the bloodshed. Jihan, for her part, spent 20 years at the helm of the Butlerian Jihad, urging compassion and restraint. Right. Last episode, we talked about how she cared about not only the lives of her own people, but the lives of those that they were like, attacking. She is not a bloodthirsty conqueror. She had a goal and she was trying to accomplish it with the least loss of life.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Of Course, after her death, 20 years in, that's when the shackles came off. And that's also day one. An entire planet was eradicated. So that was the beginning of a bloody 70 years of chaos. Now, Paul, different than her a little bit, embraced the leadership of the Fremen, but he took the throne in order to reduce the suffering he saw as it was inevitable. Now, in both cases, we have leaders who see the kind of bloodshed that was about to embroil the galaxy. And in their own ways, they do what they can to stem that tide.

[A]

Right?

[B]

But of course, both of them are trapped by forces, by machinations, by other parties beyond their control, beyond their influence.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The priestesses of Qubeb, the, you know, Paul's kizarat, and also his very tenuous understanding of prescience. And like, what are the limitations of. Once you've seen the jihad, can you even avoid it? No one knows, least of all Paul.

[A]

That's right. And I think baked into both of these characters is ultimately Frank's warning about charismatic leaders. The thing we talk about all the time, this idea that blindly following charismatic leaders is dangerous. Both Paul and Jihan illustrate how badly things can go when legions just follow unthinkingly or when mob psychology reaches this tipping point past which there is no return. Right. Once we cross that Rubicon of mob psychology, there is no undoing what we've done. There's no putting the genie back in the bottle. But also I think what's interesting is in both cases, the leaders themselves had good intentions. It's not like Jahan and Paul wanted these jihads to break out, but these good intentions in the end almost didn't matter because their intentions were overshadowed by their larger than life legacies. And so I think there's an interesting bidirectionality in Frank's warning here. It's not just about charismatic leaders and these leaders being dangerous to society, and it's also about the forces that these leaders control, these mobs, these unthinking legions of followers, and how easy it is to lose that control, how a charismatic leader can very quickly lose their grip on the reins of forces they've set in motion. And I think that is very clear in both of these jihads. But Larian and Fremen, Yeah, I also,

[B]

you know, this is kind of a half formed thought, so please excuse me as I stumble through it. But the other piece of this that feels worth mentioning is that Jihan, her noble intentions had a place. There was a kernel of validity, right, to Jahan's Cause that her daughter was aborted by a machine director who had a pattern of unjustified abortion. Like that's fucking awful. And the people on Richees had indeed turned over their sense of beauty to other people who. With fucking machines. And it was this, it was a bad time. Now with Paul, it's maybe a little different, but I want to drive home that like Paul loved his dad. And I think that like Leto Atreides is a representation of such a good person. And Paul watches as his father doing the right thing, trying to be a good light in the world, gets dragged into this political trap that leads to so many good people dying. And that's just how the fucking universe is under the Karinos. So I do think another piece of this puzzle is that both Paul and Jihan were raised in the shadow of personal loss that was caused by humanity turning over decision making either to machines and robots or, or to like, oh yeah, that's just kind of how this shit goes. And that's like who makes the decision? Shaddam the fourth makes the decision and like that's fine.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I think there's like a, there's another piece there which is kind of the stagnation. Maybe it goes back to that, that historian from last episode who was talking about how it's like human genius meets these sorts of repressed energies meets, you know, and that's what causes these sorts of things to happen.

[A]

Yeah, that's a great point. I mean, charismatic leaders don't just like grow on trees, right? They come out of circumstances that form them and shape them and turn them into charismatic leaders who can then control mobs and legions of people and tap into these pent up forces within humanity, within society.

[B]

Right.

[A]

All of that doesn't just like randomly happen by chance. Right. It happens because the circumstances are in place. The stagnation is already happening. The turning over our minds to the machines is already happening and has been for generations. And that creates this petri dish in which the correct forces for a jihad are then birthed. Right, and that is exactly what happened with Paul and Jan. Yeah, kind of

[B]

a triple warning there. So. Interesting. Dang.

[A]

Yeah. Now continuing with our comparisons between these two jihads and these two leaders, I think the second obvious comparison and connection between these two jihads is the way that religion and religious forces and religious bad actors embraced and enhanced the initial violence. Was there initial violence? Yes, of course. Was it terrible? Yes, of course. But the way it was elevated to unwarranted levels of bloodshed that only happened after these Religious forces entered into the fray and fully co opted the original intent of these struggles. In Jahan's case, it was that priestess, the head priestess, Urania, and the priestesses of Gyubebe wanting to destroy this machine attitude and humanity, this attitude that they saw as poisonous, as dangerous to humanity itself, as antithetical to their belief system.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For Paul, it was the gizrete and this Fremen's fanatical desire to purify the galaxy, as we talked about earlier, to create a universe ruled over by their promised Messiah.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And what's interesting is in both cases, it's not enough for Paul and Jihan to simply be good and effective leaders.

[B]

Right. Yeah.

[A]

They have to become gods in a sense. They have to be elevated to these otherworldly beings that are worthy of this type of devotion and loyalty and can be used as justifications for practically anything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Whatever violence or bloodshed or war crimes you want to commit. Well, this is in the name of Paul Mujib.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Right.

[A]

It can't be in the name of any Joe Schmo. It can't be your neighbor Rick. You know, like, I committed this war crime because of Rick next door.

[B]

I've tried atrocities based on Rick's name. People didn't let me get away with it.

[A]

You can't get away with that.

[B]

Too terrible.

[A]

But you say, oh, I had to do this because Paul Muadi betrayed is our ruler, our messiah. It's all for him. It's like, oh, okay, great.

[B]

Do you want to do it twice? Do it three times, treat yourself.

[A]

And so, like, that's an interesting factor here. Like, on one level, these are just normal people. Normal, quote unquote. You know, they're still powerful people within the systems of the Imperium, but they're no more powerful than any other duke or ruler might be until their circumstances and their charisma elevates them to this whole new plane of existence.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, man. Very interesting. I feel like six years of this podcast and I had never once really sat down to, like, put Jehane and Paul in the same bucket in my head, to just kind of let these thoughts rumble around. It's very cool. So we're going to wrap up now, but I did want to end on this question because I think as we talk about Frank and everything we know about him from his interviews and he, as the person who wrote the Dune Universe and brought all of this to life, what do we think is his broader messaging here, including jihads in the ebb and flow of human History, right? I mean, Frank created a world in which two seismic jihads reshaped all of human civilization. That doesn't feel like coincidence. So what is he, as the author, doing by bringing this in? And is it purely about the charismatic leaders like Jehan and Paul who enabled them? Is it purely that warning about these charismatic leaders? Or is it also about the violent upset needed to reshape old institutions in meaningful ways? Where does his message start and stop, do you think?

[A]

That's a great question. And I think there's actually an interesting tension here between Frank's ideas about these jihads and the encyclopedia's ideas about the jihads. I think for Frank, this kind of explosion of violence and upheaval is on some level biological. It's on some level, like, inherent to being human and participating in societies. And I think what Frank is getting at is when our humanity is endangered or oppressed, we revolt and lash out. That's a biological reaction to danger of that kind. And he even says this explicitly a couple of times in the first book. For example, in the appendix at the end of the first book, the Butlerian jihad is described as a, quote, thalamic pause for all of humankind. End quote. And I think in this instance, thalamic is literally referencing the thalamus region of the brain, which is a region of the brain that routes sensory information and then passes it along to your cerebral cortex to process and understand. And that biological language being used for this bloodshed I found really interesting. Seems like Frank is saying this is instinctual. And I think what reinforces this further is Paul himself, in Dune, thinks this about the visions he sees of future bloodshed and jihad. They were all caught up in the need of their race to renew its scattered inheritance, to cross and mingle and infuse their bloodlines in a great pooling of genes. And the race knew only one sure way for this. The ancient way, the tried and certain way that rolled over everything in its path. Jihad. End quote.

[B]

Damn. Land the plane. Good Lord. That's a great quote.

[A]

And I think those two quotes combined from the first book make it clear to me that in Frank's eyes, violence of this kind is inherently human. It's biological, it's reactionary to our humanity being stripped away. On the flip side, examining the entries for the Butlerian jihad and the Fremen jihad in the encyclopedia makes me think the encyclopedia writers are actually tackling it from a different angle. They're more concerned with the legacy of this kind of event and the mythology that its leaders take on it doesn't treat these jihads as inevitable or biological in any way, but instead explores how notable events like this, how tragedies like this are explained away in history with tidy explanations. Right. Politics, this, and religious fervor that and this conspiracy caused this, and this tragedy led to that. This very mechanical view of history and the universe, and greed, political maneuvering, these are all reasons for the jihad to happen. But I think what Frank is saying is beneath all of those reasons that historians might point to, the real reason is it's human to fight against oppression. It's human to fight when we are endangered, when our humanity is being taken away from us by thinking machines or by stagnation and political institutions that abuse us.

[B]

Yeah, or religions.

[A]

Right, or religions. And so I think, like, sort of stepping back, I think both approaches are extremely interesting and valid ways to examine the dual jihads in the Dune universe, but Larian and Fremen. So I'm glad the encyclopedia writers took a more historical approach. And Frank, of course, takes his classic sort of philosophical and biological approach. And ultimately, I think the takeaway for me is that violence and bloodshed are the result of stripping away people's humanity. And in fact, charismatic leaders are also an inevitable part of that equation. That petri dish idea we were talking about earlier, and I think on a large scale, Frank sees this as cyclical. A cyclical part of human history that has happened over and over again. Bloodshed, an overthrow of systems, a resetting of humanity, and then the cycles of oppression and manipulation begin again. And then we're back to bloodshed. We have to cast off the irons of our old systems and start anew. Frank, I think, sees this as cyclical. And perhaps on some level, in the Dune saga, across all six of these books, perhaps he's exploring what it might take to actually break that cycle once and for all.

[B]

Yeah. Wow. Super interesting.

[A]

So that's sort of my read on, maybe on a philosophical metathematic level, what Frank is trying to get at here with these jihads and how the encyclopedia writers tackled it. I'm curious what you think, though. What was your read on this?

[B]

Yeah, it's so interesting because I think it's pretty clear Frank didn't have a plan for the entire Dune series when he set out to write Dune, when he sat down to write those first pages. So I do see there being some organic sense of him discovering what the series is about when we talk about it in the hindsight of look at these six books and look at the six years of our podcast we've made about it. Sometimes it can be easy to say this is what his warning was always about. And the reality is he might have had kind of moving intentions himself as the author. But I definitely agree that Frank sees the sort of tension, oppression. Power corrupts, draws the corruptible. Then there are people over whom there is power, and then they rebel. This biological wiring. I agree fully. And even the kind of like punctuated equilibrium style evolution for humanity being, maybe that's the model of humanity moving forward. How did humanity, capital H evolve through the Butlerian Jihad? And that got us mentats, things that we today see as superhuman powers, took this huge upset where we rebelled against the things that were hemming us in. Meanwhile, then with Paul, it's more about breaking loose from old power structures. Right. But that idea of tension and then violent release is something he writes a lot about. I really like that quote you pulled. The thalamic pause for all humankind. There's another book from the 1950s ish called the World of Nol A. And in Nol A they talk a lot about thalamic pauses. So it's kind of interesting. I was like, I wonder if this is kind of a tip of the hat to than vote. Because in Null A the thalamic pause is something that's introduced that gives us a uniquely human ability to not be reactive when shit's going down. And for as much as Frank talks about like the human test and the test of the Gom Jabbar and the pain box that differentiates humans from animals, I see a similar DNA there where he's looking at what does it mean to be human? And are our institutions, even as we've moved away from being individually reactive, are our institutions still animal in some base way that need to evolve? And maybe that's what he's talking about as well, is this evolution toward a institutional humanity that is adaptive and will live forever and not like, chew its leg off and die in the trap. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I also, I do appreciate the difference you're highlighting. I agree the Dune encyclopedia authors are treating all of these as, you know, these things as historical. And here are the reasons why. I very much see that as them taking their roles as historians pretty accurately because they are in universe historians as they were writing these entries. But it's also true that by giving us that different perspective on these familiar events, it gives us first just a lot more fact to work with. I feel like Frank always asks the big questions, but doesn't necessarily give us enough of the answer. That he has in mind doesn't always give us a satisfactory amount of facts and figures for things. So I appreciate the Dune encyclopedia author stepping in and giving a different perspective on all of this. But, yeah, I don't know. I think for me, as I contemplated this question, a lot of it does come down to it is a broader warning about stagnation and this kind of how do you chart human evolution over tens of thousands of years? And for sure, there have been these moments. And if Dune then becomes about any one thing, maybe the six books are exactly as you said, the story of how humanity breaks free from ancient patterns and develops truly long lasting longevity. And the fact that it goes so clearly back to Jahan Butler and the Butlerian Jihad through Paul Muadib Atreides and the events of Dune and Dune Messiah. It's very, very cool. It's cool to see that strong DNA that even if that wasn't what Frank was intending when he sat down to write the first Dune book, that that was going to be the broad exploration, the fact that it got there is very, very cool.

[A]

So, yeah, I agree.

[B]

Oh, so neat. So fun to be able to have these conversations feeling like I'm discovering new elements of Dune so many years into talking about it.

[A]

So cool. Yeah, I mean, the jihad comes up like practically every episode. And it's interesting that as we sit down to really think about it and break it down, feels like we're discovering something new again. Yeah, that's sort of the magic of the Dune universe.

[B]

Yeah, dude. Like the, the, the Big Bad, the like enemy that humanity is always pointing to, evolving and watching it evolve in real time and getting new names and stuff, but the same, the mindset being kind of so cool.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Omnius.

[B]

That's the one. That's the one I was thinking of. Erasmus. Well, dear listener, before we delve too too deeply into our stupid inside jokes, let's wrap up. And before we let you go, we want to remind you of some ways to support us and what we do here at Gom Jabbar. And the two best ways, of course, is one, to become a patron [e-mail] gomjabbar or you can check out our merch store, Gom Jabbar Shop for some Dune themed swag so you can hit the theater, see that opening night, Dune part three, wearing something sick that other Dune fans look at it and go, oh, hell yeah, brother. Hell yeah.

[A]

Right? And of course, we love to hear from you. A quick reminder that you can always email us@gom jabbar podcastmail.com send us your thoughts, send us your questions, send us pictures of your cute pets. All of the above. Gamjabarpodcastmail.com Great place to say hello and great place to get in touch.

[B]

Indeed it is. Well, I'm gonna go now that we're done recording, I'm gonna go do some more atrocities in the name of Eric. Yeah, I'm hoping it's gonna work this time. I mean, I'm so tired of being

[A]

on the Historically it has not worked out for you.

[B]

I know, I know, I know.

[A]

But we don't have a He's just your innocuous neighbor. You know, like he doesn't have legions following him until battle, but he has a great wardrobe.

[B]

I mean he every day he's looking so spick and span and I'm like, look at him, he looks great. Yeah, come on.

[A]

Murder in his name let me Atrocious

[B]

petticoat let me in the name of his petticoat let me.

[A]

Well friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muadib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the larparty podcast network on larparty.com you can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Lore Underscore Party. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path.

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