The Ranks of the Bene Gesserit

Summary

Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast – Episode Summary Episode Title: The Ranks of the Bene Gesserit
Release Date: March 14, 2025
Hosts: Abu and Leo
Podcast Series: Gom Jabbar: A Dune Podcast
Hosted by: Lore Party Media

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Introduction

In "The Ranks of the Bene Gesserit," Abu and Leo delve deep into the intricate hierarchy and career pathways within the elusive Bene Gesserit sisterhood of the Dune universe. Utilizing information from the Dune Encyclopedia, the hosts explore the various ranks, training processes, and potential career trajectories for members of this powerful organization. Through a hypothetical journey of a young candidate named Taylor S., Abu and Leo illuminate the structured progression and personal growth experienced by Bene Gesserit initiates.

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Understanding the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood

The Bene Gesserit is portrayed as one of the most formidable factions within the Dune universe, wielding significant influence across the Imperium. Despite their frequent appearances in Frank Herbert's novels, many of their internal workings remain shrouded in mystery. Abu highlights this complexity:

"Frank Herbert himself left many of the details of the inner workings of the Order a total mystery."
— Abu at [05:08]

The Dune Encyclopedia serves as the primary source for exploring these hidden facets, offering insights while acknowledging discrepancies and ambiguities introduced by later authors, such as Brian Herbert.

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The Hierarchical Structure and Training Regimen

Abu and Leo discuss the Bene Gesserit's meticulous training regimen, which transforms young candidates from ordinary children into masterful manipulators and strategists. The process begins at a tender age, ensuring that only those with the requisite genetic traits and intellectual capacity are groomed for advancement.

Key Training Phases:

1. Early Training (Ages 1-12):

   • Focus: Foundational skills in self-control and bodily mastery through Prana Bindu techniques.
   • Philosophy: "If one can control oneself or know thyself, ultimately one can control the universe."
     — Abu at [16:17]

2. Initiate Stage:

   • Sorting: Candidates undergo the Gom Jabbar test to prove their humanity and self-control.
   • Training Paths: Initiates choose between becoming part of the Virgae (potential Reverend Mothers) or the Proficte (General Sisterhood members).

3. Advanced Training:

   • Virgae: Intensive three-year preparation for the role of Reverend Mother.
   • Proficte: Specialized training for roles such as concubines, teachers, or espionage operatives.

4. Mater Akrior:

   • Role: Established members who may continue training or pursue specialized functions within the sisterhood.

Abu emphasizes the rigorous nature of these training stages:

"They have had plenty of time to perfect that, from uneducated children to masterful manipulators on a global, universal political stage."
— Leo at [06:57]

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The Hypothetical Journey of Taylor S.

To exemplify the Bene Gesserit's structured progression, Abu and Leo craft a detailed hypothetical career path for a candidate named Taylor S. This narrative illustrates the various ranks and decisions a Bene Gesserit member might encounter.

1. Early Identification and Recruitment:

   • Background: Taylor is identified for her genetic traits and intelligence, with a strong lineage of Revered Mothers.
   • Recruitment: Begins training at age 1, focusing on mind and body conditioning.

2. Passing the Gom Jabbar Test:

   • Significance: Proves her self-control and suitability for advanced training.
   • Quote:

     "She proves she's a listener of Gom Jabbar. She resisted the animal urge to jerk away from the pain and control her impulses."
     — Leo at [22:04]

3. Initiate to Acolyte Transition:

   • Ceremony: Takes the Initial Oath, declaring her dedication to the sisterhood.
   • Uniform: Receives specialized attire symbolizing her new status.

4. Group Sorting – Virgae vs. Proficte:

   • Virgae: Candidates destined to become Reverend Mothers undergo secretive and intensive training.
   • Proficte: Members focus on essential roles supporting the sisterhood's broader objectives.

5. Advancement to Mater Akrior:

   • Role: Assigned specialized functions, with the option to pursue further apprenticeships.
   • Final Training: Prepares for the ultimate transformation into a Reverend Mother through the Spice Agony.

Throughout Taylor's journey, Abu and Leo weave in humorous asides and insightful commentary, making the complex hierarchy accessible and engaging for listeners.

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Notable Insights and Conclusions

Canonicity and Lore Complexity: Abu addresses the challenges in reconciling different canonicities within the Dune universe, especially between Frank Herbert’s original works and the expanded lore introduced by later authors.

"The Dune Encyclopedia is an in-universe document... much of those inner workings are hidden, shrouded in complete mystery."
— Abu at [05:07]

Propaganda and Perception: The podcast explores how historical documents within the Dune universe may be influenced by propaganda, shaping outsiders' perceptions of the Bene Gesserit.

"They are okay with outsiders knowing that... while also externally serving the function of selling the brand."
— Abu at [37:03]

Career Diversity within the Sisterhood: Abu and Leo highlight the diverse career paths available within the Bene Gesserit, emphasizing that becoming a Reverend Mother is just one of many possible trajectories.

"None of those necessarily get cool names, but they are necessary for any big organization."
— Leo at [32:13]

The Final Transformation: The culmination of the Bene Gesserit training is the Water of Life ceremony, a perilous trial that elevates a member to the status of Reverend Mother, symbolizing mastery over mind and body.

"There is no glory. There is no escaping consequence."
— Leo at [43:05]

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Conclusion

"The Ranks of the Bene Gesserit" offers a comprehensive exploration of the sisterhood's hierarchy and the intricate pathways members navigate to ascend the ranks. Through the engaging narrative of Taylor S., Abu and Leo provide listeners with a deeper appreciation of the Bene Gesserit’s complexity and their pivotal role within the Dune saga. This episode not only enriches the existing Dune lore but also invites fans to reimagine and expand upon the legendary sisterhood's legacy.

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Notable Quotes

• "If one can control oneself or know thyself, ultimately one can control the universe."
  — Abu [16:17]

• "She proves she's a listener of Gom Jabbar. She resisted the animal urge to jerk away from the pain and control her impulses."
  — Leo [22:04]

• "There is no glory. There is no escaping consequence."
  — Leo [43:05]

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Timestamp Highlights

• [05:07] Introduction to the Bene Gesserit and the use of the Dune Encyclopedia.
• [16:17] Core philosophy of Bene Gesserit training for Taylor.
• [22:04] Taylor passes the Gom Jabbar test.
• [37:03] Discussion on propaganda and perception within the sisterhood.
• [43:05] The significance of the vows taken during Mater Akrior rank.

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of "The Ranks of the Bene Gesserit" episode, providing both longtime Dune enthusiasts and newcomers with valuable insights into the sisterhood's structure and the rigorous paths its members undertake.

Transcript

[Leo]

Today on the show, well, we're taking our final exams, and we are discovering once and for all if we, Abu, are cut out to be podcast hosts.

[Abu]

Oh, I'm nervous. I'm so nervous.

[Leo]

I'm nervous too. That would be an unfortunate discovery Five years into the show.

[Abu]

This is one exam I don't want to fail and I should have studied more for.

[Leo]

I think it's one of the only ones I care about. Yeah.

[Abu]

Welcome to Gam Jabbar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune. We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies, and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and tv. My name's Abu.

[Leo]

My name is Leo. Ooh.

[Abu]

Today's gonna be a fun one, Leo. Yeah, and quite relevant given we just covered the HBO show and we're working our way through heretics. We're talking a lot about the Bene Gesserit these days.

[Leo]

Sounds like Dune to me. Yeah.

[Abu]

So I'm excited to dig into the lore of this really fun entry in the Dune encyclopedia that talks about some of the ranks and titles that one may earn as part of the Bene Gesserit organization.

[Leo]

Yeah, a lot of insight into, like, when you join the sisterhood, what does that look like? And kind of what is the career path of someone like Jessica? It's very cool.

[Abu]

That's very cool.

[Leo]

Now, before we get too far into it, we do want to take care of our housekeeping. And of course, that means spoiler warning for today. And luckily, dear listener, there are maybe some light, non plot specific references to heretics of Dune, but otherwise, we're really digging into the Dune encyclopedia today. So no plot spoilers for Dune, Any of them?

[Abu]

No.

[Leo]

So you are safe to listen today.

[Abu]

And of course, a huge shout out up top to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons. Daniel Dion, Jonathan Lambert, Brad Hutchinson, Seth Reddin, Greer. Folks, there's no title good enough for you.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Is the problem.

[Leo]

That is the problem.

[Abu]

It hasn't been invented.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

What could we call you, sir? Seems underwhelming. Yeah, true, your majesty. Just doesn't cut it. Your grace. Your holiness, I don't know. We need a new title for our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons.

[Leo]

We'll brainstorm. We'll wipe.

[Abu]

We'll brainstorm. In the meantime, accept our gratitude for helping build the foundation upon which this show runs. Of course, that gratitude extends to all of our patrons across every level who truly help make this show possible.

[Leo]

Indeed. And Listen, if you're not able to become a monthly supporter on Patron for as low as $5 a month, you can support us with a one time financial tip at the buy me a coffee link in the show notes. Another great way to show your support and help us keep the lights on.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

Appreciate it. Yeah.

[Abu]

Okay. Housekeeping out of the way.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

The game plan for today's episode is kind of fun. A bit of a twist on our usual exploration of lore. What we're going to be doing today is walking through the hypothetical career of a talented young Bene Gesserit candidate. And through this journey that we follow along with this young woman, we're going to learn about the various titles and ranks and career paths that one may end up on when joining the Bene Gesserit organization. There's a lot of fun lore here, and we thought it would be a fun way to explore them. To go through a hypothetical scenario.

[Leo]

Yeah, absolutely. And we're going to get into that right after a quick break. So don't go anywhere. Dear listener, when you're back, we're riding sidesaddle. No, we're riding sidecar. We're joining someone as they joined Bene Gesserit. You don't wake up dreaming of McDonald's fries. You wake up dreaming of McDonald's hash browns. McDonald's breakfast comes first. Ba da ba ba ba. Over the past several days, three females have been found dead.

[Abu]

Looks like someone's going after these girls then. They have to know to watch their backs streaming. Now you really want what happened if.

[Leo]

It weren't happened to you? Exactly why I need to keep going on this.

[Abu]

Starring Emmy award winner, Amanda Seyfried. I'm worried about what you're going to find. So am I. Long Bright River, a limited series, streaming now only on Peacock. Welcome back, folks. Before we join our lovely young, talented lady as she works her way through the Bene Gesserit, who we will introduce shortly. Let's quickly set the stage and give you some background so that we're ready for this journey together.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

To begin. We all know as Dune fans that the Bene Gesserit sisterhood is one of the most powerful factions in the Dune universe. They are all over the series, literally in every single book written by Frank Herbert. And so what we're going to do today, of course, is kind of dig into the internal structure of that very shrouded and elusive organization. This, of course, comes with a huge caveat. Frank Herbert himself left many of the details of the inner workings of the Order. A total mystery.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Never wrote that. Wrote about them in prime canon. So today's conversation is going to be sourced and is going to heavily lean on information pulled from the Dune Encyclopedia.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

We also want to acknowledge that Brian Herbert, in his extended novels and prequels, wrote his own version of Bene Gesserit history and his own version of the internal workings of the Order. There are, of course, differences in canonicity. We've talked about many of these things over the course of this podcast on our Dune Prophecy coverage. But if you're interested in getting in the weeds of why the Dune canon is so messy, we highly recommend searching back in the feed for an episode titled the Messy Canon of Dune where we really crack open that can of sandworms and get into why. The Frank Herbert lore, the Encyclopedia lore, the Brian Herbert lore, is all sort of different and elusive and is a difficult web to untangle at times.

[Leo]

Yeah, totally. Well, turning back to today's topic, the Bene Gesserit had plenty of time through the tens of thousands of years to develop its curriculum to basically fast track women from uneducated children good at nothing, just playing with toys. Kids.

[Abu]

What are kids even good at?

[Leo]

What are they? Good fucking nothing. They're terrible. And then from that all the way up to masterful manipulators on a global, universal political stage. Excellent, excellent, excellent. So they've had plenty of time to perfect that. It is worth noting that, as always, the Dune Encyclopedia is an in universe document. And it is basing this entry on a text called the Ordinas Matrim. Ordones Matrim, I think the Order of the Mothers, maybe.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

This text could be out of date according to the timeline of the books that we're familiar with. So something to kind of keep in mind throughout all of this, we are talking about the journey of a young person into the Bene Gesserit sisterhood at some point in time. But we don't know exactly when this text was the, like, seminal text of the curriculum or when it, like, fell out of favor or was like, leaked to the public and then abandoned or whatever.

[Abu]

Right, right, exactly. This Ordense Matrim is like a repository of sisters, like names, titles, ranks, active years. You know, it's like a big giant Rolodex. Active sisters. And so the historians, the fictional historians of the Dune Encyclopedia are using this as a reference point to learn about the inner workings of the organization. But as we know, much of those inner workings are hidden, shrouded in complete mystery. And anything that may or May not come out to the public, could very well be propaganda, could very well be manipulated, could very well be an image put forth. And so that is sort of always a fun caveat to the Dune Encyclopedia is like, we're working with historical documents within the Dune universe, and they might just be wrong or totally out of date by the time we actually get to like the stories we know and love in the books themselves.

[Leo]

Yeah, the Sisterhood really is kind of one of the best at what do we want you to know about us? And then, like, making sure you know that and then nothing else. Usually I'll also say from Frank's book. So this was something that I think you and I might have different reads on. But ultimately, in Frank's books, the Bene Gesserit, from the very beginning to the very end, are a powerful organization that are capable of quite a bit. Now, with that in mind, there's this quote from the Dune Encyclopedia about the Benny Jesuit as the kind of Ordones Matrim reflects on them. And I thought this was really funny. The mendicant teaching order, now known as the Bene Gesserit, appears to lack the facilities and resources to maintain the highly complicated structure of initiation preparation and rank structuring described in the historical documents. End quote. I had to look up mendicant.

[Abu]

Yeah, I did, too.

[Leo]

Prone to begging, like, just, like, in need of support. And it's like. So my read on this was because we don't, you know, during God Emperor of Dune, it's a little touch and go. But the Bene Gesserit organization, anytime that we are seeing inside of them, they are totally capable of maintaining resources and having the structure for onboarding, initiation, preparation, etc. So this also feels like the authors of the Dune Encyclopedia going, well, we have these historical documents talking about how they're like master manipulators of the whole universe, but now they're just like a begging school for, like, girls. Isn't that interesting that they used to be these great manipulators and now they're prone to begging and they're just like a school for girls. And to me, that feels like the authors have fully had the wool pulled back over their eyes. Like the Bene Gesserit leaked this old document and then said, but these days, no, no, we're actually quite in dire straits. Could you please give us some money? And the Dune Encyclopedia authors are going, oh, my God, there's more Benny Jesuits at the door. Just tell them. Tell them we're not home. You know, like, it's Fine. We don't have any donations for you today, I'm sorry. Oh, a candy bar for your basketball team? Yeah, sure, A dollar.

[Abu]

Here you go.

[Leo]

You know, whatever. So it feels like the Bene Gesserit have kind of bait and switched and gotten everyone back on board with, oh, we're just sorry. We don't really have that many resources these days. And everyone goes, cool, cool, cool. And in the background you have like heretics of Dune and God Emperor of Dune in the previous books.

[Abu]

Yeah. I had a slightly different take on this. I kind of took this quote at its word, actually. Because I will say for me, I would argue that we can't take, if we read anything from the encyclopedia, we can't take into consideration the events of heretics or chapter house.

[Leo]

Sure.

[Abu]

And without getting into spoilers or plot details, those books are very Bene Gesserit focused. And the Bene Gesserit is quite central and powerful in those books. So that seems to be at odds with this statement where the encyclopedia historians are calling the Bene Gesserit a mendicate teaching order, sort of a poor beggar's order. But I will say, given the events of God Emperor of Dune, the Bene Gesserit were, were in dire straits.

[Leo]

Sure.

[Abu]

And were under the oppression and under the wriggly tale of a God emperor for 3,500 years.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And I would imagine that, yeah, man, they went through like probably many layoffs and restructurings and had to really tighten their belts in order to survive that 3,500 years of oppression. So I actually didn't read this as manipulation. And I do like to think that the Bene Gesserit are capable of missteps. I mean, they fucked up with Paul and like shot themselves in the foot. And so I do like to imagine that the Bene Gesserit are not always this all powerful, all knowing, 10 steps ahead of you order that's always manipulating you no matter what.

[Leo]

For sure.

[Abu]

And in this instance, given God Emperor of Dune and given the encyclopedia was written only when God Emperor was out, Sure. I actually took this quote at face value. But I think obviously, given what happens with heretics, it's totally valid to also interpret this as propaganda. Again, that's the nature of propaganda. You never know.

[Leo]

There's definitely speculation on my part. I'm just always. I love making myself into a pretzel in order to make these documents make sense in the broader scan of things. None of this super matters. But it is fun to talk about where the propaganda ends.

[Abu]

Again, did we mention Messy canon of Dune earlier. Because this is where it gets messy, right? Like, you have Frank's lore, and then you have the encyclopedia that kind of runs along along with it until God, Emperor of Dune, where it kind of gets real fuzzy because you don't know what McNelly knew or didn't know at that point.

[Leo]

Right, right, right. Yeah.

[Abu]

And then, of course, you have Brian in between all of that, just fucking it all up. So that's where, you know, it basically lands into, like, whatever interpretation you like.

[Leo]

Most. Fun to you.

[Abu]

Yeah, run with it.

[Leo]

You know, the tinfoil hats come out, and everyone has a big tinfoil hat party. It's great. That's right.

[Abu]

That's right. Everybody's invited.

[Leo]

Well, speaking of hats, let's talk about the initial sorting and the sorting hat. Hey, Segue. Segue. Yeah. So, turning to the episode now, let's talk about the various ranks within the sisterhood, which begins with this kind of filtering and sorting. And we're going to be following, as you teased earlier, the journey of this kind of hypothetical talented young woman. It's kind of hard to. I mean, what should we call her? What do you think? I mean.

[Abu]

Well, I mean, the first name that came to mind when I was like, what name, like, fits this scenario we're talking about, this episode was Taylor S. Yeah, sure.

[Leo]

Taylor.

[Abu]

That feels like an appropriate name, maybe.

[Leo]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. To start off, let's just cover some background of this young lady named Taylor. She was born in the capital city of an inconspicuous planet and has come onto the radar of the local Bene Gesserit Embassy. Initially, eligibility to join the sisterhood is determined by genetic traits. You have to have stuff, genetically that the Bene Gesserit's interested in, and also a general level of intelligence and aptitude. And also. Also they want to know if you have a Reverend Mother in your, like, 23andMe results, basically. So if in your recent ancestry, you've had successful Bene Gesserit reverend mothers, that's a gold star for sure.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

And all of this is very general. But of course, Taylor, this promising young woman, turns out her mom, Reverend Mother, she's got great potential, great, great singing. Check. She's talented, she's intelligent.

[Abu]

Check.

[Leo]

And so, with all that in mind, Taylor S. She's brought on board by the Bene Gesserit Embassy, and she begins her training from the ripe old age of 1 years old.

[Abu]

Uno.

[Leo]

That's the hope. Yeah. Yeah. Uno. Uno. Years old.

[Abu]

Okay. So, continuing with Taylor's journey, she's 1 years old, she's now sort of being lightly trained for her future in the Bene Gesserit because she's checked all the boxes that they're, that they look for. In an ideal candidate. Taylor will then spend the next 10 years of her life, of her childhood being taught the core of Bene Gesserit training philosophy, which according to the Dune Encyclopedia boils down to quote, if one can control oneself or know thyself, ultimately one can control the universe. Its first axiom is my mind controls my reality, end quote. That is the core philosophical heart of all Bene Gesserit training. Everything expands outward from that core of thinking.

[Leo]

Yeah, great lesson. Great thing to learn at a young age.

[Abu]

Truly a great thing to learn. Yeah, I feel like we could all take some of this to heart.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Now, much of this early training, these 10 years from the age of 1 to around 11ish, 12ish, Taylor will basically be learning the foundational basics. She will be focusing on building her bodily control through like Prana Bindu 101 and honing her self confidence, really embracing that idea of my mind controls my reality. So honing her mind and body in a way that will prepare her then for a potential future in the Bene Gesserit indeed.

[Leo]

Now a little bit of headcanon here. The way I understand all this, this isn't explicitly in the Dune Encyclopedia, but my understanding from all this because she's being trained from one year old.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

They still don't know if she has the interest, the intelligence, like there are elements of whether or not she's going to make a great Bene Gesserit. Like great Reverend Mother, great, whatever. They don't know that yet for sure. So personally I was thinking of this. All of this is probably similar to the Mentat training where you're not aware that you're being taught as a mentat until you're at a certain age and you've shown a certain aptitude. And then they go, hey, by the way, do you want to continue mentat training? And Mentat, you know, students everywhere go, I wasn't being mental. Oh, I was, oh my God. You know, I imagine it's something similar to this where like let's say in a totally non plausible universe, Taylor S isn't extraordinary. By the time she's like 9 or 10, they could kind of quietly go, and that concludes your teaching and then enjoy life.

[Abu]

Yep, good luck.

[Leo]

And you just go off into the world and are a decent person, you know, and you're like, maybe you're extra flexible or you have extra control over your pinky muscles, but you aren't necessarily the same capability as someone who is like fully initiated into the sister.

[Abu]

Yeah, I completely agree. I completely agree. Like, I. Reading between the lines, I think you're spot on with the mentat analogy here.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Training such a young child is a bit too much of a commitment. Right. Like, you can't teach them these advanced things if they're going to wash out later. You really have to be sure before you get them to like the actual real deal level, level two stuff. And so, yeah, from my understanding, this is just like super foundational stuff that's just really prepping the candidate for a potential successful career in the Bene Gesserit later. If they continue to pass evaluations and continue to check the right boxes, if at any point in these first 10 years they don't check all the boxes, then it's easier to just kind of drop them because we haven't committed that much training to them.

[Leo]

Right. Yeah.

[Abu]

And so I think it's. I even think it's less like she's going to special Prana Bindu classes or something. I think it's literally more just like the way she is being raised is sort of in a Benny Jesuit, going back to that philosophy that we quoted earlier, just kind of like this is a soft way in which she is being raised as a child in order to prep her with the right mindset, with the right sort of habits or interests and see how she kind of blossoms into a young woman before they accept her fully.

[Leo]

Yeah, I think that's probably pretty fair. It's a lot of it just like groundwork and it's like understanding the universe. And there's a great quote in the first book about Paul. One of the first important lessons he learned was that he can learn. And like that fundamental understanding is what empowers so much more of his life.

[Abu]

Yeah. And that's a basic thing that's valuable to any child. But if the child turns out to be really perfect for the Bene Gesserit, then it's also great to recruit them with this knowledge baked in.

[Leo]

Yeah. Well, fast forwarding a bit. Young Taylor S has officially hit puberty. And under the watchful eyes of her mother and the other Bene Gesserit, she is showing immediately great promise. She's showing sensitivity toward her lessons. She's killing it. 11 out of 10, every single test. Excellent. And you know what? It's time for her to undergo the Gom Jabbar test. That means Becoming a patron and leaving a five star review on Apple and Spotify. And that's how she proves that she's a capital H human. Totally not self serving at all. Or what's the other joke we make? The Gob Jabbar test, where you sit and listen, you subject her to multiple episodes of this podcast and she likes it and enjoys it that she's a.

[Abu]

Indeed.

[Leo]

Well, so she proves. Of course she passes. She passes the Gob Jabbar test. Of course she proves she's a capital H human. She's resisted the animal urge to jerk away from the pain and control her impulses. By the way, wait, side note, I was glad to hear that there's like a decade or so of teaching before they subject her to this life and death test. I think sometimes the Bene Gesso can feel like a very cold, calculating order, but this is. She's had a decade to prepare her for this moment to ultimately decide whether or not she can kind of control herself. Right.

[Abu]

And even then she's not subjected to this test. If at any point in those 10 years she's not up to snuff.

[Leo]

Right. Totally.

[Abu]

They'll just stop training her at that point.

[Leo]

Yeah, they're not out here just killing tons of children.

[Abu]

Yeah, we're not subjecting every young child to the Gam Jabbar to initiate them. It's the cream of the crop.

[Leo]

Yeah, just like our listeners. Anyway, so she proves she's a listener of Gom Jabbar. She has the option now to now that she's passed the Gom Jabbar test, she can begin her Bene Gesserit training proper as an initiate at home with a tutor or at one of the like chapter house schools on nearby planet. So she can either go to like Bene Gesserit boarding school or can have an in home tutor, depending on circumstances.

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

And you know what she decides? Yeah, like home school's nice, home cooked meals, hang out with my friends, you know, you don't have to leave town, but really in it for the cool uniforms, the sorting hat, the 10 points to Gryffindor, that whole experience that could be fun. So decides to go instead to the school. So Taylor S. Has officially accepted the role of initiae and is now at one of the chapter house schools with a uniform quote done colored long sleeve shirts and leggings covered by short brown tunics. End quote. And something that I wanted to point out here, the uniform having this like cool neat garb that you aspire to wear is a huge Part of the Bene Gesserit trajectory. Like, at any given stage, you've got, like, new. You know, you've earned your sleeves. You lose your sleeves. Now you have a hood, now you don't have a hood.

[Abu]

Yeah, it's very cool. Right.

[Leo]

This is a secretive order, so if you don't know what you're looking for, you can't tell different ranks apart from the outside, but from the inside, you can be like, that person doesn't have a hood. So I know X, Y and Z.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

And there's that kind of, like, insider vocabulary.

[Abu]

Yeah, totally. And it becomes a point of pride, you know, once you. Once you earn your so and so sleeve, everyone at that school knows you did the thing, that you're great, you've got the sleeves. It's sort of a classic way to build loyalty among your members.

[Leo]

True.

[Abu]

Okay, so Taylor is an initiate now, which is the very first rank you obtain on your Bene Gesserit journey. She's an initiate. She has gone to the school. She's got her dope uniform. And she will now spend the next five years undergoing further training, more advanced training, where she will learn more advanced techniques to control her body and her mind, to prepare her for some very important exams that will decide, very likely, the rest of her fate in the Bene Gesserit. This will divide her into one of two groups and set her down on one of two very different paths in this organization.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So five years pass. Taylor's doing great. It's time for these exams. She goes through a series of tests and her and her fellow initiate are thus divided into two groups. Group one, we have the Virgae. Who are the potential Reverend Mothers? I imagine these are the top of the class.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And then the other group is the proficte. These are the future members of the General Sisterhood.

[Leo]

Yeah, right.

[Abu]

They're going to fill in the gaps of the rest of the organization where needed. Now, of course, Taylor is a badass. She doesn't flunk out of the school at all at this point. And she is divided into one of these two groups, both of which we'll talk about shortly. Before the rest of her training begins, though, she is presented as a graduate now in the ceremony of Initial Oath, where a proctor superior of the school will repeat an oath to each individual who has passed and then has the individual deliver their first oath. Quote, I am a Bene Gesserit. I exist only to serve. End quote.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So they. They've gone from now loose candidate to initiate to proper part. Of the Bene Gesserit. By taking this first of many oaths they will take over the course of their career.

[Leo]

Yeah, that's huge.

[Abu]

Now we were talking about outfits earlier. Having oathed the night away, Taylor is giving another outfit now, folks, time for an outfit change. You've graduated.

[Leo]

New drip.

[Abu]

This time she gets a sleeveless, hoodless appa.

[Leo]

Nice. Hell yeah.

[Abu]

A new outfit.

[Leo]

Sun's out. Guns out, baby.

[Abu]

That's right. Oh my gosh. Sleeveless. With all that physical training she's been doing, you know, she show off her.

[Leo]

Arms, shoulders, she's like, yeah, hell yeah.

[Abu]

That's right. Now addition to that, because she is now a graduate and no longer an initiate, her training and her living accommodations will now level up. Better dorm room, better meal plan, whatever. And her training is also about to get way, way, way harder. So yeah, Taylor's now gearing up for three additional years of hyper specialized training. This is where we start to see the various career paths of a Bene Gesserit spread out in many different directions. And so we'll continue following Taylor's journey down these many paths after a short little break. Hang tight, folks. There's much more to talk about.

[C]

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[Abu]

I'm Anne. I'm running the Boston Marathon presented by bank of America. I run for Dana Farber Cancer Institute.

[C]

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[Abu]

To thrive in life, even with cancer.

[Leo]

Join bank of America in helping Anne's cause.

[Abu]

Give if you can@b of a.com supportann.

[Leo]

What would you like the power to do? References to charitable organizations is not an.

[Abu]

Endorsement by bank of America Corporation.

[Leo]

Copyright 2025 welcome back, everybody. Hope you enjoyed your break. All right, I know you're on the edge of your seat. Let's talk about the potential paths that Taylor might go down now that she's an official member of the Bene Gesserit.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

Now, specifically, we're looking at two potential paths, depending on her test results. Hypothetically, again, couldn't be her. Couldn't catch her doing this. But let's say she didn't make the cut for the potential Reverend Mother, and she's in the Perfectus group. Okay.

[Abu]

Okay. Yep.

[Leo]

And based on what she shows an affinity for, she's going to begin specialized training to prepare her for future work within the broader organization that is the Sisterhood. Now, this might be training to become a concubine or a wife to an important, you know, person who needs to be wrapped up in the fold. She might become a trainer or a teacher, someone who kind of continues to help the students realize their potential. This has a kind of cool Latin name, the Prasitrix Press.

[Abu]

A tricks bro.

[Leo]

Parasitrix bro. You know, she went full Prasitrix. You know, it's funny. I sing in Latin, but this is. This is quite the word. I don't know. That's rough, that. That word. It describes people who are going down that teacher route. There is also the possibility that she is going to be trained to be, like, espionage, spy, Someone who's gathering information and, like, passing secret messages and stuff like that. That's also given a cool name. Emissary. Espeon. Very neat.

[Abu]

Nice.

[Leo]

Very cool. Sounds a little bit like a Pokemon, but that's fine. Or she might go down as simple as an Eevee.

[Abu]

Evolution.

[Leo]

Yeah, exactly. Isn't. I think Espeon is.

[Abu]

Espeon might actually be an Eevee.

[Leo]

Yeah, Umbreon and Espion. Yeah, okay. Anyway, sorry. We should really only talk about Digimon on this podcast because we're a Digimon first. Podcast.

[Abu]

Yeah, that's right. We're only. We're only Digimon.

[Leo]

Only Digimon household.

[Abu]

I don't want to hear. I don't want to see Pikachu's yellow fucking ass anywhere in this podcast.

[Leo]

No balls, all right? No balls thrown around. We are. No, purely. Anyway, okay, Bubble blah. Espeon or Taylor might go down as a simpler career path, Right? Maybe none of those. Maybe again, historians, we need them. Archivists, we need them. Accountants, scribes, even just a domestic manager of a school. The school needs supplies and papers and.

[Abu]

All sorts of shit like logistics, man.

[Leo]

Logistics. The world doesn't turn without these cogs and Some people are really, really, really well suited to be that excellent cog in the machine.

[Abu]

That's right.

[Leo]

Now none of those necessarily get cool names. Cool fancy Latin names, but there aren't. They are necessary for any big organization.

[Abu]

Yeah, fuck it. We can give them names now. Accountatrix, Scribe. Esseray.

[Leo]

Yeah. Huh.

[Abu]

Historian. Just switch it to an O at the end, you know.

[Leo]

Oh shit.

[Abu]

O, N. Yeah, keep going. Archivasilatrix. I don't know. That one's a tough one.

[Leo]

Archivasilatrix is like a rapper name or. It's for kids is what it's. Hell yeah.

[Abu]

I don't know Latin. Just adding tricks down.

[Leo]

Domestic manager tricks. Nailed it. Right? Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

But dominate.

[Leo]

Espeon, domin, espion. Yeah. Listen, no shame at all in any of those career paths because ultimately, yeah, you gotta have them and that's huge. Especially you know, you're empowering the people of tomorrow. It's great. So nevertheless, the Prefictus group has that spread of responsibilities.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

And it is worth noting that regardless of which specialization they go down, whether they're going to be a spy or like the manager of the school or whatever, they are also going to be trained generally for the responsibilities of policies. Policies.

[Abu]

Pelosi's.

[Leo]

Pelosi, maybe. AKA Breeders. Right. The Bene Gesserit. At the very end of the day, they are still eugenicists. They are still passing on specific genetic traits. That's why you're here in the first place. Right. You needed your 23andMe results before you could even be a part of the sisterhood. So generally they're training every woman on the general responsibilities of like someone who will have kids at some point.

[Abu]

Yes, exactly. That's just a base training that everyone gets, no matter which path you may end up on.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

So that's the perfect day. That's the one path. Let's talk about the other, perhaps more interesting path. And of course, the path that Taylor S goes down. Oh, our girl Taylor, she's crushing it. Top of her class, she gets sorted into the Virgay Group.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

This as a reminder, is the group of future potential Reverend Mothers.

[Leo]

Nice.

[Abu]

The best of the best. The Captain Americas of the Bene Gesserit. So here's what the Encyclopedia has to say about this group's training. What takes place for the three years that the Vergae group is training in its own little pod. They're prepared for their eventual roles as Reverend Mother. End quote.

[Leo]

Enlightening.

[Abu]

And that's it?

[Leo]

Yeah. Wow. So many details.

[Abu]

That is one sentence the encyclopedia says about this group. We don't know anything else about what goes on with the Vergae group for three whole years of their training.

[Leo]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Abu]

Wild to think about, given how much detail we just learned about the Perfect Day group. Right?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Trace Etorix, A Miss Era, Espeon, whatever, you know, account of tricks. We know all about what they're doing over there and what training they might undergo, what paths might happen in their careers. The Vergae completely shrouded in nothing. Nothing at all. And that's kind of cool because again, we were talking about this up top, at the top of the episode, but the Dune Encyclopedia is an in universe, quote unquote historical document written by fictional historians within the universe, based off of fictional historical documents that they have access to. Clearly, the Vergate training at this stage is so top secret that no one has access to what the fuck is actually going on. The details and the specifics of it all.

[Leo]

Yeah, that's. Oh, it's so cool. Like, I enjoy throughout this episode thinking about what do the Bene Gesserit, like, what would they be okay with people knowing? Yeah, they're like, yeah, we need accountants, we need accountatrix, we need General Manitrix, you know, all these different mess beyonds and whatever. They're okay with the universe knowing that. Are they okay with knowing how they prepare their Reverend Mothers for the Spice Agony? And so then as we talk, it's like, what's in. What are we talking about and what are we not talking about? And then all of that can be informed by, like, again, a little bit of tinfoil hats stuff. But, like, what would the Bene Gesserit not include in documents that do eventually make their way to the authors of the Dune Encyclopedia?

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

Oh, so cool. I love the idea of this, like, need to know what is in that camp, what isn't. I was also going to say, even the. I exist only to serve the oath that they took.

[Abu]

The first oath that they take.

[Leo]

Yes. Sisterhood above all. Like, what we know about the Bene Gesserit, that feels very true, but it also feels a little bit like propaganda.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

You know, it feels very pr in a way.

[Abu]

Yeah. Oh, totally. And it can serve both functions. You know, it can be a. Aligned with their actual teachings of sisterhood first Sister sisterhood above all. I'm here to serve. I've graduated, I'm a part of this now. While also externally serving the function of selling the brand.

[Leo]

Yeah, totally.

[Abu]

To outsiders. You know, ExxonMobil being like, we power the engines of tomorrow. And kind of glossing over the fact of like we drill into the earth of not tomorrow.

[Leo]

We poison the penguins of today.

[Abu]

Right. We fuck over the ecology of today. I think it can certainly serve both functions. And I agree with you. I do think it does. Okay, let's continue with Taylor's journey. Yeah, let's say she goes down one of these paths, whichever path, either the perfect day or the verge. Regardless, after three years, these two groups who have been separated for their distinct training, will then come back together after this training and they will take additional vows. They will once again go through another graduation ceremony, given that they passed that three years of training and they will continue to cement their role within the Bene Gesserit and continue to cement their loyalty to the organization. After these vows are taken, the profictae are then basically done with their training. They're then assigned to posts either out in the field, where appropriate, or at schools around the Imperium where there are openings and where their skills are needed. They're set out to do their job. They got their bachelor's degree. Taylor, however, we know is incredible, went down the Virgay path, did three years of some secret training. We don't know. We don't know what she was up to. Taylor and the rest of her Vergay graduates, once they go through this second round of vows, they will continue their training because they still have a long path to go before they can become future Reverend Mothers. This is not the end of the journey for them. And so Taylor won't be assigned a job yet. She's going to grad school.

[Leo]

Right. So grad school kicks off and this comes with a title, title change. Philae Alvi. Philae Alvi. And at this stage, just like many grad students or doctorate students.

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

Taylor is also going to be working while studying, continuing to develop her abilities and I'm sure preparing for an eventual spice Agony maybe, or whatever. Whatever she's doing, she's going to continue doing that. But then in addition to that is going to be working as a messenger, as she's going to be taken on missions with a Reverend Mother and use her kind of memory trance abilities to record important events. Her.

[Abu]

We see this happen in the books, actually.

[Leo]

We actually see this in the books. Indeed. It's cool. We get to see the sort of. These are the young women who are often with Reverend Mothers who are kind of doing the sort of clerical day to day stuff so that the Reverend Mother can focus on doing whatever like the main mission is and making sure that that's taken care of. So very cool. They're also seeing how it's done. They're seeing, you know, it's a work.

[Abu]

Study, real world experience. Totally. Yeah.

[Leo]

Totally. Yeah. And this happens for two years, basically. And at this point, after two years, Taylor is going to go through another examination that will decide whether or not she's going to become a full Reverend Mother. And this test, if she passes, she will advance to the level of acolyte, someone who is on track to be a Reverend Mother. Still, if she fails this test, which of course couldn't be our girl Taylor, she could not fail. And even if she tried, she's so good, she would fail at failing. But if she did fail, she would be basically back on the track of a regular sister. And after this two year study would probably go back to being a spy or a concubine or discover tricks or whatever. You know, one of the earlier roles that the other group did, like the Perfectus group did.

[Abu]

Yeah. She might even be held back for a year. The other route that could go is that they just decide you still have potential, but you need like another year of training.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

So she might just be assigned to her training and might have to like, do the shadow more Reverend Mothers and do like another year of this on the job experience.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But Taylor's great. She doesn't need any of that. She doesn't fail these exams. She advances. She now holds the rank of acolyte. She's gone from philae alvi to acolyte. So continuing with Taylor's journey now as an acolyte, she will next be assigned to specifically one Reverend Mother. So she's no longer just like going out on random job experiences. She will be assigned to one Reverend Mother who will be her mentor.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

And she will then spend anywhere from the next one to six years.

[Leo]

Crazy. Yeah.

[Abu]

As the personal servant and mentee of this Reverend Mother, basically learning everything she'll need to know to successfully become a Reverend Mother herself in the future.

[Leo]

Right. Yeah.

[Abu]

Once these one to six years has passed and her apprenticeship is complete, Taylor will then earn the next rank. She will earn the rank of Mater Akrior.

[Leo]

Yeah. Cool.

[Abu]

And once she achieves this rank, she will partake in another ceremony where she takes on even more vows. I hope you're sensing a trend.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

These vows I found particularly interesting though, because this is where she takes the vow to never live forever.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Because she has mastered her mind and body enough by this point to slow the Metabolic processes in her biology to combat aging, a thing we know Bene Gesserit are capable of doing. Right here she vows never to actually do that. To live forever.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Here's what parts of the vow say that I found really interesting quote. Age slowly, but slowly age. The world of time is inhabited by creatures who are worn by time. And we must appear to be as they are. Extend your time, but do not exceed the limits of your culture. It is better to die one's own death than to be killed as a sorceress. End quote.

[Leo]

That's so huge. I love it. That's so cool.

[Abu]

I love it. Kind of really beautiful and poetic, too.

[Leo]

Yeah. It also frames. There is no glory. There is no escaping consequence. There is no like getting away with it. You either die a natural death at the hands of time or you will be killed as a sorceress. And those are the two. And I think for a young person or for anyone going into that role, you understand this power you've been given by this organization who over the last 15 years of your life, you've been trained and brought into their fold of way of thinking. That would be very effective. That'd be very effective messaging.

[Abu]

Yeah, that's absolutely.

[Leo]

That's huge.

[Abu]

Tldr. Don't abuse this power we're giving you. It will backfire.

[Leo]

With great power comes a lot of a whole heck of a lot of taking it seriously, I think is what was said to a young man once.

[Abu]

That's right. I found that really interesting because this is an idea, of course, we know from the books as well, and is discussed in the books.

[Leo]

Very true.

[Abu]

So Taylor takes these vows. She is now a Mater Akrior. And this is where Taylor will be assigned a job. She's officially sort of done studying officially in an official capacity, and she will begin working in a chosen field. And she'll begin a career here, either within the sisterhood or again, out on some assignment in the field. She does have the option, throughout these years as Mater Akrior, to take on further apprenticeship where she needs to, you know, maybe she needs to hone a particular skill for a particular assignment. She may take on the occasional apprenticeship short term here and there to continue honing her skills. But she will be working full time from this point forward and this period of Taylor's life at this rank. Mater Akrior will be her longest. She's kind of hopscotched and jumped through many different titles and vows and graduations over her time at the sisterhood. Here's where she will hold steady for many, many years. And it could take anywhere from five to 10 years before she feels ready and before her fellow sisters and mentors feel ready for her to tackle the final rites, the Spice Agony, to undergo the transformation of the Reverend Mother. And in fact, the encyclopedia points out that this rank is where a lot of Bene Gesserit who make it this far basically stall out. And many never, throughout their entire careers, feel ready to take on the final test of Reverend Mother. And so they will spend the rest of their lives as Mater Akriors within the Sisterhood, still doing important functions, still doing, like, important stuff around the Imperium and within the Sisterhood, but they will never graduate to the legendary status of Reverend Mother.

[Leo]

I think that's the takeaway for me is like, look at how many places that you could find your place for a lifelong career with the Bene Gesserit that doesn't end up as a Reverend Mother. So when you meet someone who is a Reverend Mother, look at all the stuff. Every test they've passed and every. It's just. You are seeing the result. The title is a result of a long, long journey with many opportunities to find something else to do.

[Abu]

Right.

[Leo]

And so, especially when we meet characters who are Reverend Mothers or whatever, we are seeing not only the cream of the crop, but we're also seeing people for whom this is their, like, best location in the Bene Gesserit is this role, truly. And there's no. I didn't get any judgment necessarily, from the way that this Dune encyclopedia entry is kind of interpreting the ordinance. Matrim.

[Abu]

Yeah, same.

[Leo]

You just end up where it is best for you. And if you're an archivist, then that's great.

[Abu]

There's no shame in that, right? It's best for you.

[Leo]

Yeah, exactly. You don't want to become a Reverend Mother only to burn hell. Like, that's not the goal. The goal is to have these people kind of find their final spot within the sisterhood as kind of effectively as possible.

[Abu]

Totally. I read it that way as well.

[Leo]

Yeah. Well, we don't have to tell you what's going to happen with Taylor because, dear listener, you already know. You already fucking know. She is ready.

[Abu]

She's that Grammy.

[Leo]

Again, I said no judgment, but. But she's the best. And she's getting the Grammy, I guess, whatever. But she's about to go through the final and most important test for any Reverend Mother, and that is the Water of Life ceremony to fully earn that position. Now, this is going to be the most painful and Awful experience of her life, probably. But if she survives, she will fully awaken as a Mater Sapientissima. Sapientissima. Yeah. Mater Sapientissima, which is otherwise known as a Reverend Mother. And of course, our girl Taylor, she fucking kills it. She goes through the agony. She's like, whatever, you know, poison. I don't. Poison doesn't go to this school. No poison here. Poison's gone. Poison's taken care of. Survives. Great. And new trip, folks. New title, new trip. Here we go, here we go. The new outfit. Iconic black ABBA out.

[Abu]

Oh, you know it, I know it, we all know it.

[Leo]

And again, I think even like with a hood, like, there's like, there's like a whole thing about whether or not there's a hood. She also gets to choose a new three name designation for herself.

[Abu]

Hell yeah.

[Leo]

Hell yeah. Oh, I love this part. This is cool. So traditionally, the way that this three name thing is chosen. And again, Gaius Helen Mohiam. There is a Reverend Mother. We know. Gaius Helen Mohiam. Traditionally, the name is chosen. The first name is a traditionally male name. The second name is the name of a famous or well known sister, a Reverend Mother, or like someone within the sisterhood. And then the final name is. Is the family name, so. Or like some kind of modification of the family name.

[Abu]

Yep.

[Leo]

So Taylor, our young, talented Taylor, becomes Reverend Mother. Travis, Beyonce, Swiftimus. And naturally, we don't need to explain any of those names. They're all excellent names, Travis.

[Abu]

Google it.

[Leo]

Feel like you can. You can throw anything with a name like that. Beyonce, you're the queen of flying insects is excellent. And then Swiftimus, of course, because that's right, yes, has to stand for now.

[Abu]

Her official moniker as a Reverend Mother comes so far in her career at the Bene Gesserit. Okay, to wrap up Taylor's life within the Bene Gesserit, things could go in many different directions from here on out. Because she is now the best of the best. She is a Reverend Mother within the Bene Gesserit sisterhood. And so her life could go in many different directions depending on the needs, the sisterhood. As they evolve, her role and duties might evolve as well. A couple of details from the encyclopedia here that are interesting. Some roles that only Reverend Mothers can do. Firstly, she's ambitious. And very likely she will try to climb the corporate ladder of the Reverend Mothers. You start off as just a Reverend Mother, but then you can pursue becoming a proctor at the next stage. Then a proctor General, and ultimately a proctor superior. Whoa, that sounds like Sort of the management track of Reverend Mothers.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Sounds like there weren't details on exactly what these roles do in the encyclopedia, but I kind of got the sense this was like management.

[Leo]

Yeah, well, and there's also mention in each ceremony there's different proctors, there's proctor superior is at one of the ceremonies. And so it's like your responsibilities by definition become more like you're part of the ceremonies, you're officiating, you're bringing people from one rank to the next. You know, there's no need for every Reverend Mother to be able to do all of that. So, yeah, if you have kind of a passion for empowering the next generation of Reverend Mothers or whoever, then, yeah, you become a proctor.

[Abu]

Yeah. Now she could also go an alternate route here. She could become a Bene Gesserit of hidden rank.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And this is cool. This is something we've chatted before about on the podcast and we kind of run into in the books and other lore situations. But if, for example, Taylor is married off to a leader of a major house, or maybe she is sent on a top secret mission where it would actually be a danger to her and the sisterhood if others knew that she was a Reverend Mother, she would then present herself as just a Bene Gesserit.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

And internally, she would. In all internal documents, the sisterhood would then begin to only reference her as Bene Gesserit of hidden rank.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

She has some rank. We can't talk about it anymore because of the delicate nature of her work.

[Leo]

Yeah. By the way, think about how careful the Bene Gesserit is being. Like internal Bene Gesserit documents are classifying her rank.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

So then if, like, what if the document is leaked or something? It's not going to endanger her, but they're being very careful with that sort of thing. And then this whole document got into the hands of the Dune Encyclopedia office. Seems suspicious. This is also where I get very paranoid with like, okay, I think they're supposed to have all of this information. This is harmless for them to know because the things that are dangerous are.

[Abu]

Classified, are hidden rank.

[Leo]

Are hidden rank. Yeah. Right.

[Abu]

They're fucking scratched out for some reason on the, on the documents that we got a hold of.

[Leo]

Redacted. Interesting.

[Abu]

Right. Now, another route that Taylor could go is, is she could earn some other titles here in addition to Reverend Mother that only actually Reverend Mothers can get. You know, so the, the perfect day. They can never end up in these roles. You have to achieve Reverend Mother first And then specialize into these advanced positions. And there's a couple that are worth calling out. There's not a ton of details here in the encyclopedia, but some of the names are pretty self explanatory. She could go down the academic route, for example, and she could earn the title of Erudica or Dr. Seema.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And that to me seems like some sort of like academic researcher, scientist, doctor, biologist, that, that sort of route. Or she could maybe go down a political road and become an ambacte, which is an ambassador or a cogita vere, which is truthsayer.

[Leo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Abu]

Of course, Truthsayers are maybe one of the most present Reverend Mothers we come across in the books themselves.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

And once again, only a title you achieve. Once you've gone through everything else we just described in Taylor's journey, then you can specialize further into a truthsayer, if you would like. So just taking that into consideration brings a whole new perspective to all the truthsayers we meet in the Dune saga.

[Leo]

It's like a crazy difference between the two canonicities because in Brian's universe, you're just like a TruthSayer. From the first year that you're in the Sisterhood, they're like, and now you. It's just immediately versus like, oh no. To become like a truth sayer, you have to be. It's like decades of experience.

[Abu]

Right, exactly. Because like, I mean, think about it. What a delicate power. Why would you just give the ability to discern truth to everyone who passes through your school? That's fucking crazy. Yeah, Brian, think about it for five minutes.

[Leo]

Goddamn, think about it for. Because also you need in many ways, and not to say that you're out here lying to every student, but like, you have to understand that the sisterhood has its goals and its organization has its goals. And ultimately, do you want to give everyone access to truth and lie from the very, very beginning? If you're like giving them like, I exist only to serve. And you're like, weirdly, my truth sense is going off. This seems like actual bullshit. And you're like, fuck, we taught them too early.

[Abu]

Oh no, these young girls. Too much power too quickly before properly testing them. And like, yeah, exactly. This path, of course the Dune encyclopedia path feels like much more logical and fits much more nicely into the universe that Frank originally created as much of the encyclopedia does versus Brian's universe. And so for me, it makes sense that the truthsayer is like the end game of like, what's the math on this? How many years Has Taylor studied now? 10 plus 5, plus 3, plus 2.

[Leo]

It's a long time. Yeah.

[Abu]

It's like almost 20 years of study and training before she's allowed to obtain this ability of a truthsayer.

[Leo]

Yeah. Or at least like, the rank of and representative. It's like, completely. Yeah. I like this a lot.

[Abu]

And I like this a lot.

[Leo]

I like that. It's also not necessarily, like, you could be a Mator Akrior for your whole life and that's totally fine. Or you can become a Reverend Mother, and that's fine. Or you can become a Reverend Mother and be like, actually, I'm super sensitive to the way that people speak. And so then you become a truthsayer.

[Abu]

Totally.

[Leo]

It's very. It's cool to kind of see those branching paths and to understand that everyone kind of finds their niche.

[Abu]

Absolutely.

[Leo]

Now, as we wrap up, there is a final note here, which is that the Bene Gesserit are also. The sisterhood is also educating women of major and minor houses who are. Might be, you know, young daughters who are. Their duke or their baron is going, hey, I think they have a lot of potential. Can you be taught by one of the best schools in the Imperium. And those individuals might also be given honorary ranks. So, for instance, as an example, Taylor, now a full Reverend Mother might end up teaching a young woman named Sabrina, you know, Charlie of House Carpenter or Charlie of House xix.

[Abu]

Yep, exactly. There's X's X.

[Leo]

And may bestow upon young Sabrina or young Charlie an honorary title of Mater Custodia or Mater Adferata. And this doesn't necessarily make them a sister or give them any, like, responsibilities or clout within the sisterhood.

[Abu]

Right. They've. They've taken no vows, you know.

[Leo]

Yeah. It's just kind of like, here you go. Yeah. Feels cool. It's like a gold star on the lapel. As we could kind of interpret from the Dune encyclopedia, this feels more like a way to stroke the egos of these powerful and wealthy families. Right. Like, you don't want to say, hey, yeah, we're going to put your daughter through the tests, and she flunked out on the first one. So instead you go, you know what? She is so capable. She's so amazing, so brilliant. We don't want to subject her to the boring rigmarole of the rest of our, you know, I. In fact, I think she's ready to graduate with honors as a Mater Custodia. And you're like. Like a custodian, like a base level no, no, no, it's Latin. It's Latin Mater Custodia. It means the best of all of us. And you go, whoa, cool. What does that mean? She gets to do whatever she wants for the rest of her life.

[Abu]

So just a political savvy move.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

But also in a. Like, a smart move. Right. The Bene Gesso want ends at all the most powerful houses across the Imperium. This is an easy way to get it. You train their daughters, you hype them up, you give them these fake titles to make them feel good.

[Leo]

Totally.

[Abu]

And suddenly you're on one of the most powerful houses. Good side.

[Leo]

Yeah. It's currency. It's currency in a political universe, for sure.

[Abu]

Yeah, absolutely. What fun. What a journey for Taylor. And how cool to learn about all of these various paths and titles one might earn on her journey through the Bene Gesserit. I think this sort of thing I love so much because it expands the world in a way that is additive to our appreciation of the original story. Because now we can look at any of the Bene Gesserit we come across in any of Frank Herbert's books and wonder what their rank might be. Some of them, clearly acolytes, Right. They're just recording stuff. They're on, like, these job assignments, shadowing Reverend mothers.

[Leo]

Right.

[Abu]

Some of them truthsayers. And now we can appreciate that fully and go, oh, my God, you went through 20 years of education to get here.

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

Some of them might just be like major acriers, like important sisters doing important work, but they kind of failed or flunked out of Rev. Actually taking the Reverend Mother test. I don't know. Like, it just adds so much depth to a world, and I think only enhances our appreciation of the original text. And I think that that's the best kind of expanded lore, the best way to do expanded lore.

[Leo]

I think so, too. And even, you know. And again, without saying anything too specific, you know, when we meet Jessica and we're talking about Jessica and Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Moheim. Gaius Helen refers to Jessica as like, oh, she was my assistant, or she was my. Like, I was her mentor. I was her teacher, and she served. She served me. And there's such a linear relationship there that I then go, oh, was Jessica at that stage a Filiae Alvi? Right, Yeah. A Reverend Mother. Reverend Mother. Potential studying under Gaius Helen, which then also gives us. Then reflects more back onto this body of text and this. This idea. And we can say, oh, so even maybe potential Reverend Mothers, given certain needs, you say, oh, well, Duke Leto needs concubine and needs, you know, for X, Y and z reasons. You say, okay, we're actually going to take you out of this role. You know, you're in grad school to become eventually a Reverend mother. Turns out we need you to actually go over here and do this thing over here.

[Abu]

Right. Because we know she has the potential. Because she does.

[Leo]

Totally.

[Abu]

She becomes one literally in the book, so. Or in the movie and stuff. So she has the potential. And clearly. I agree. I think she was clearly on the verge track to Reverend Mother grad school, totally. And then was sort of sent to Duke Leto because that became more important.

[Leo]

As the needs of the sisterhood.

[Abu]

Right. And again, none of that is in the original text. We learned that all here from the encyclopedia with this wonderful entry about career paths within the sisterhood. It's super fun.

[Leo]

It's so cool.

[Abu]

Okay, to wrap up today's episode.

[Leo]

Sure.

[Abu]

This is like the obvious question, right?

[Leo]

Yeah.

[Abu]

What is your Reverend Mother 3 name designation? Let's say you graduate. What are you calling yourself? Your official title.

[Leo]

Okay, so I need a traditionally male name, a famous sisterhood member, and then my family. Okay. So I think the best guy I can think of, real and fictional, is Hasimir Fenring.

[Abu]

A true stand folks, through and through.

[Leo]

Listen, Die Hard. Die Hard is how I describe myself. So I'd say Fenring the first name. I had to do a little naturally. Great women everywhere in history. But I looked up, there's this woman named Candace Pert who discovered opioid receptors in the brain and broadly didn't get a lot of credit for it. And so I just wanted to shout out, Candace Pert, neuroscientist and pharmacologist. Really incredible life story. So I'd be Fenring Candace Wigginsatrix.

[Abu]

Wigginsatrix. Yeah.

[Leo]

Wiggins a tricks. Yeah. With the emphasis on the gins. Wigginsatrix.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Candace wins. Wigginsatrix. Weirdly, my name is the hardest part to say and all of that. What about you? What's your. What's your Reverend Mother name?

[Abu]

I would go by the moniker Reverend Mother Optimus Octavia Zeffroni.

[Leo]

Oh, pretty good.

[Abu]

Optimus, obviously, as in the Prime. Autobots, rollout.

[Leo]

The robot perspective. Autobots, roll out. Yeah.

[Abu]

Octavia. As in the truly iconic and influential sci fi author, Octavia Butler.

[Leo]

Hell yeah. The founder of the Butlerian Jihad.

[Abu]

And then just, you know, Zephroni. Just a little fun twist on my name there. You give it, give it a little on as a fron I was gonna.

[Leo]

Say somewhere between your last name and like a pasta variety.

[Abu]

Right. It could be a pasta.

[Leo]

Some protein shape. Yeah. Boil it for nine minutes. You don't want it too al dente, you know.

[Abu]

That's right. That's right. That's wonderful. Okay, dear listeners, this is how we expect to be addressed from now on. Optimus Octavia Zafroni and Fenring Candace Wiggin. Wiggins.

[Leo]

Tricks. Yeah, that last name really ruins it. Here's another in the moment question. What do you think your own kind of strengths and weaknesses? Where do you think you would end up in the various path. Do you think you would like. I don't think I would get to Reverend Mother. I just don't know. I don't know.

[Abu]

I don't think I'd even end up in the verge path, to be honest. I have. I'm a baby and have no tolerance for pain, so, like, I'm never taking that fucking Water of Life ceremony. Yeah, I would definitely end up in the profictus path.

[Leo]

Yeah, I think so.

[Abu]

I think. Oh. Oh, no, this one's obvious. I don't even have to think I'd end up as a. As a praesatrix, as a teacher or a tutor in another life. If I wasn't like, doing this shit. I think I would have actually legitimately become a teacher. So I think that would be my path in the Bene Gesserit.

[Leo]

You know, it's so funny. I think the same mostly because, like, for the last, like 12 years, I've been at Apple teaching, and I'm like, teaching and training and I really like it.

[Abu]

That's true.

[Leo]

And I'm really good at it. So it's like there's. There's an element there of like. It's not necessarily something that I'm super passionate about, but it's something I've done for quite a while now. And I'm. And I'm. And I am quite good at it. Not to toot my own horn, but it's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Otherwise, you know, I don't know. I like the idea of being an information gatherer, like a spy. Like, that's such a sexy idea. But I'm so stressed out by the idea of lying. No. People are like, you a spy? Be like, yeah, sorry.

[Abu]

So I'm actually an MRSA espeon. And here's all the internal documents from the sisterhood.

[Leo]

Here's everything.

[Abu]

Please leak these to you. But please should.

[Leo]

I really shouldn't. But I just. I like you a lot. I Want you to like me. Yeah. Yeah.

[Abu]

That's fun. Well, we'd be in the same classes together. That'd be cool.

[Leo]

There you go.

[Abu]

Yeah.

[Leo]

Chapter House and it be great.

[Abu]

That would be great.

[Leo]

Long lunch breaks where we talk about our. Our favorite.

[Abu]

Where we talk about our favorite lore about. Yeah. Earth. Real Earth history.

[Leo]

Real Earth.

[Abu]

I don't know. I'm doing like a bit where like we're in Dune and we talk about reality as lore. Anyway, you get it. Okay, that's the episode, folks. This was a super fun one. Fun one to research, fun one to chat about. Leah. Like, this opens up a lot of sort of thought pathways and appreciation for the original book. Before we let you go, as always, folks, we end these episodes on a couple of quick, important reminders on how you can support the show. Help us keep going and keep in touch with us. So as a reminder, the two best ways to support the show is to become a patron. A patron [e-mail] gam jabbar and to get yourself some Dune themed swag from our merch store. All of those links are going to be in the show notes below, so please check them out.

[Leo]

Yeah, indeed. And we love to hear from you. So email [e-mail] Send us an amalatrix and send us your thoughts, questions, your cute petrixes, Petra, Petropolis, Petropodes. Yes, email us, send us your questions, your thoughts from today's episode. What is your reverend mother name? Dear listener, where would you burn out the degenerate career path? Gomjaburpodcastmail.com is the best way to reach us.

[Abu]

That's right. We are so close to getting a copyright strike from Trick Cereal. You know, one slip up and that bunny is going to be at our floor doors.

[Leo]

I know that bunny is Litigation in hand is definitely past the Gom Jabar test and is, you know, deadly, deadly force. That rabbit. I can tell just by the that.

[Abu]

Rabbit, it's going to be like, yo, tricks are for kids, but litigation is for you too, okay? You're getting sued. Stop using our name in your dumb little show.

[Leo]

God, that's hard. That's true, bro. Why?

[Abu]

Why is your lawyer dressed up as a rabbit? Is this normal?

[Leo]

Yeah, everything needs to be branded that way. And you're like, stationary's got a rabbit on it. It seems weirdly light hearted for serious legal paperwork.

[Abu]

Yeah, I know. It's such a trash cereal as well.

[Leo]

Yeah. What's your favorite cereal?

[Abu]

God, I'm so boring. I'M like a honey notes honey oats guy.

[Leo]

That is really boring.

[Abu]

Yeah, it's really.

[Leo]

I'm very positive, having a. Having an opinion, but that's. That's rough.

[Abu]

Yeah, just like honey bunches of oats, you know? Give me that. Wow.

[Leo]

Wow. That's. That's really.

[Abu]

That's the tough. Are you kidding? What do you.

[Leo]

What are you.

[Abu]

What are you, like a Captain Crunch?

[Leo]

Captain Berry Crunch.

[Abu]

I knew it was.

[Leo]

Cuts up the mouth. It's great.

[Abu]

I knew it.

[Leo]

The blood makes it taste even better.

[Abu]

Sweet cereal, you know, it's not even a health choice I'm making. You know, if Honey Bunches of Oats was, like, way unhealthier, I'd still like it, you know?

[Leo]

Oh, that's so interesting.

[Abu]

It's not a health choice. I just don't like my cereal to be, like, sugary.

[Leo]

I've never chosen that cereal. I've only ever been subjected to it, so. We live very different lives.

[Abu]

Yeah. But we can all agree Raisin Bran. Raisin Bran can burn in hell.

[Leo]

You want to hear a dirty secret?

[Abu]

Don't say it. I love it. I'm gonna cut the recording. Don't say it.

[Leo]

Love Raisin Bran. It's great. It's great. Time. No.

[Abu]

Oh, my God.

[Leo]

Well, friends, there is no real ending. It's just the place where you stop the recording. But this podcast is always one step beyond logic. So help spread the word of Muad'dib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to check out the other shows on the Lore Party podcast network on Loreparty. You can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at loraparty. We've also got select videos up on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, whoever controls the podcast controls the universe. We'll see you on the golden path.