Challenging the Pope: The Avignon Papacy

Summary

Gone Medieval – Challenging the Pope: The Avignon Papacy

Podcast: Gone Medieval
Host: Dr. Eleanor Janega, with co-host Matt Lewis
Released: April 21, 2026

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

In this lively and deeply insightful episode of "Gone Medieval," Dr. Eleanor Janega and Matt Lewis tackle the often-misunderstood episode of medieval church history known as the Avignon Papacy (c. 1309-1376). The hosts challenge traditional, often pejorative, narratives (like the “Babylonian Captivity”), exploring why the papacy shifted from Rome to Avignon, what political dynamics drove and shaped the period, and why the lasting reputation of this era deserves careful reconsideration—complicating myths about French domination and religious decadence. They unpack personalities, power struggles, and the real impact on the church and European society.

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MAIN THEMES & PURPOSE

• Demystifying the Avignon Papacy beyond the propaganda and clichés such as the "Babylonian Captivity."
• Examining the broader context: Why did the papacy leave Rome, and what impact did this have on church and secular politics?
• Highlighting the diverse character and actions of the Avignon Popes—both their perceived weaknesses and overlooked achievements.
• Challenging the assumption that the Avignon Papacy was uniquely political or decadent compared to other papal eras.

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KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

1. Setting the Context: Why Avignon? (06:52–08:44)

• Violence and Instability in Rome:
  • Rome was rife with violence between factions (the Guelphs and Ghibellines) and noble families (the Orsinis and Colonnas).
  • Moving the papacy was not simply a matter of French pressure—Rome itself was a “war zone.”
• "People forget the reason Rome was abandoned—it was often open warfare." (Eleanor, 08:44)

2. Pope vs. Kings: The Boniface VIII–Philip IV Showdown (10:48–22:31)

• Boniface VIII’s Assertion of Church Supremacy:
  • "He makes this big book called the Libra Sextus… The thing is, everybody hates this, right? Everybody hates this guy who is in any way secular." (Eleanor, 11:28)
  • Papal Bulls: "God has placed us over the kings and kingdoms." (Boniface VIII, 17:01)
    • “It is necessary to salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman pontiff.” (Unum Sanctum, 18:13)
• Philip IV’s Reaction:
  • Refused to pay taxes to the church, called the Pope “thy foolishness.” (19:15)
• Excommunication Escalation:
  • Boniface excommunicates Philip IV, who sends troops to physically capture and assault the pope—“the Schiaffo di Agnani (the slap of Anagni)” (21:47–22:31)
  • "They just really beat Boniface up. It's a beat down for the ages." (Eleanor, 21:47)

3. Clement V and the Move to Avignon (24:09–29:40)

• After Boniface's death and a compromised conclave, a French pope (Clement V) is elected.
• Work-from-Home Papacy:
  • Clement chooses not to return to Rome, instead relocating permanently to Avignon, a papal fiefdom not part of France proper at the time.
  • "We're doing some work from home," jokes Eleanor, framing the historical context in modern terms (25:35).
• Why Avignon?:
  • The region was linguistically and culturally distinct from France, closer to the Holy Roman Empire.
  • "They don't speak French, they speak Occitan… This is a modernism leaking into the back. It’s an anachronism." (Eleanor, 28:00–28:33)

4. French Influence & Templar Suppression (34:36–38:34)

• Clement V Under Philip IV’s Sway:
  • "Clement V…does some things that are kind of like, very clearly at the behest of Philip IV."
  • Most notable: condemning and dissolving the Knights Templar, handing their wealth to the crown.
• Edward II’s Reluctance in England:
  • Pressure from both Philip and the papacy forces Edward to move against the Templars, even though he’s not keen.

5. Life at Avignon: Were the Popes Just French Puppets? (38:34–51:36)

• Successive French Popes:
  • Seven Avignon Popes—all French, but varied in temperament, policies, and engagement with reform.
  • Clement VI: “He is spending money on art. He is really putting a lot of money into the papal palace… He is at court constantly.” (Eleanor, 44:09)
  • Benedict XII and Innocent VI: reformers, less ostentatious, trying to curb wealth and abuses in the church.
• A Mixed Bag:
  • “Some of them are kind of terrible popes, but my favorite pope of all time is one of them.” (Eleanor, 39:03)
• Ostentation vs. Reform:
  • "They're drinking Château Neuf-du-Pape every day, babe." (Eleanor, 51:36)
  • Still, later Avignon popes attempt to move back to Rome, commit to reform, and focus on broader church unity, especially during crises like the Black Death.

6. Reputation & Reality: “Babylonian Captivity,” Wealth & Reform (51:05–56:38)

• The “Babylonian Captivity”:
  • Phrase probably from Petrarch, reflects Rome-centric dissatisfaction and a desire for “Rome as center of the world.”
• "There are people in there who are genuinely trying to do their best in very difficult circumstances." (Eleanor, 49:36)
• Wealth, Tithes, and Criticism:
  • “Tithes across the church are increased by about 10%.… Whenever the papacy decides it wants to redecorate, ordinary people pay for that. And that's not good.” (Eleanor, 56:38)

7. Return to Rome & the Western Schism (59:34–62:41)

• Attempts and Obstacles:
  • Urban V tries to return to Rome but can't due to ongoing violence; Gregory XI finally returns in 1376.
  • The aftermath leads directly into the Western Schism, when rival claimants to the papacy emerge.
• On Popes’ Motives:
  • Later Avignon popes were not simply “French puppets”—they navigated complex pressures and earnestly sought reform.
  • “It’s not fair to look at Clement V, Clement VI, and tarnish all these guys with the same brush. Some of them are actually super religious and really interesting.” (Eleanor, 61:07)
• Contemporary Uses and Misuses of the Avignon Narrative:
  • "Any analysis that overlooks those very real dangers is juvenile at best, I would say.” (Eleanor, 61:31)

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NOTABLE QUOTES & MEMORABLE MOMENTS

• On Boniface VIII’s bombast:

  • “God has placed us over the kings and kingdoms.” (Eleanor, quoting Boniface VIII, 17:01)
  • “It is necessary to salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman pontiff.” (Boniface VIII, quoted, 18:13)

• On French rejection of papal supremacy:

  • “Let thy foolishness know that in temporal things, we are subject to no man.” (Philip IV to Boniface, 18:46)

• On the slap of Anagni (arrest/beating of Boniface):

  • “They just really beat Boniface up. It’s a beat down for the ages.” (Eleanor, 21:47)

• On Avignon’s real context:

  • “Avignon is very firmly in Ositania, and it is… not France at the time. Arles is part of the Holy Roman Empire.” (Eleanor, 28:00–28:33)

• On popes and reform:

  • “He’s selling the art that Clement bought. He is like, saying, guys, I’m serious, the Black Death keeps happening. We’ve really got to refocus on God.” (Eleanor on Innocent VI, 48:41)

• On the reality of the Papacy:

  • “It’s so easy to say, oh, the Avignon papacy, it’s this terrible political thing, but there are people in there trying… in very difficult circumstances.” (Eleanor, 49:36)

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TIMESTAMPS FOR KEY SEGMENTS

• Rome’s instability, Guelphs and Ghibellines: 08:00–10:08
• Boniface VIII and secular power struggle: 10:48–22:31
• Schiaffo di Agnani (slap of Anagni): 21:47–22:31
• Clement V elected/move to Avignon: 24:09–29:40
• Avignon vs. France: Debunking anachronism: 28:00–29:40
• Templars dissolved—French influence: 35:08–38:34
• On Avignon popes: ‘a mixed bag’, reformers, and ostentation: 39:03–51:36
• Babylonian Captivity myth, criticism of Avignon: 51:05–56:38
• Popes try to return to Rome and the Western Schism: 59:34–62:41

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CONCLUSION

Eleanor and Matt deftly reveal the Avignon Papacy as a nuanced, much-misrepresented epoch: less a story of French capture, more an era of strategic (and sometimes forced) adaptation amid intense turmoil in Rome and Europe. They highlight that while some popes were mired in ostentation or French influence, many strove for genuine reform and faced impossible political realities. Ultimately, the Avignon Papacy is shown as a chapter of complexity—worth far more than its mythologized reputation. The episode challenges listeners not to take medieval “scandal” at face value, but to recognize the human dilemmas and diversity at its heart.

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Recommended for deeper dives: The Investiture Contest, the Knights Templar, and the later Western Schism (promised for a future episode).

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Notable Quote to End:
Eleanor Janega (61:31): “Any analysis that overlooks those very real dangers is juvenile at best, I would say.”

Transcript

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Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up. These may apply. Hello, I'm Dr. Eleanor Yannicka and welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and the latest groundbreaking research. From the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to Popes to the Crusades, we delve into the rebellions, plots and murders that tell us who we really were and how we got here. The Avignon Papacy has been in the news. If you ask me, it probably always should be, given that it has to be one of the most interesting facets of church history. So when I noticed people talking about it, I decided that was as good an excuse as any to attempt that rare thing in emergency medieval history podcast. Because the thing about the Avignon Papisi is that the phrase itself might ring a lot of bells for people, but most don't actually quite understand what it was. And look, this makes a lot of sense as not everyone has had the opportunity to do a lot of in depth learning about the medieval church. And even those who have done might fall prey to the propaganda surrounding this period. After all, it isn't unusual to see this 77 year period from about 1309 to 1376 as the Babylonian Captivity, a pejorative indicating what people see as a specifically politicized and profligate era. This is a seductive view and let's face it, the Babylonian Captivity is an incredibly fun epithet throw around, but can we ever say that there was a period of time when the papacy wasn't political? And why are we assuming that French politics are worse and more deleterious than Roman politics? And has anyone stopped to consider that 14th century Rome was often a war zone? In other words, I have a lot of points to make about one of my favorite aspects of medieval history. Luckily for me, I also have a really great co host who is willing to be dragged into my special interests when they constitute an emergency. That is. So today on Gone Medieval, Matt is on day release from his dungeon so I can talk to him about the lows and often overlooked highs of the Avignon pap. Hi, Matt.

[A]

Hello. I can't believe you dragged me away from some dungeon admin for this. I was going to clean my moldy corner today.

[B]

Yeah, I know, I'm sorry, but it's so unusual for us to have a medieval emergency. And also we need like, what a

[A]

medieval hunting horn, like klaxon sound for breaking news. There you go.

[B]

Breaking news. Someone mentioned the avenue of papacy and you know, I realized that this is my, one of my several hobby horses. Like I love the Avignon papacy and as a way of getting out in front of it, I thought that, you know, maybe you could ask me what my problem is and why I'm so obsessed with this.

[A]

It's gonna be great. I get to ask questions to a guest and I don't have to listen to you answer. I don't have to care what you say. I can cut you off, I can sass you and everything. This is gonna be brilliant. I'm loving this.

[B]

Okay, mind next time we're recording it in the dungeon, I'm keeping you chained up. That's it.

[A]

Oh, man. Okay, best behavior on. Okay, so as you mentioned, it's been in the news recently for you and I, the idea of secular leaders of nations being at odds with the Pope, kind of not new news. This, that is not breaking news. That's been going on for a while.

[B]

That's kind of like the, the standard state of affairs really, as far as as I'm concerned. You know, and we, we've talked about this before, you know, we've talked a lot about the investit or controversy. But I think that the Avignon papacy is one of these interesting ones because I think it's a catchphrase. Like a lot of people have heard about the Avignon papacy, but I don't think that they really understand what it means, if that makes sense.

[A]

It's been chucked around a little bit in the news at the moment, isn't it? So we're going to get to the bottom of what it is, why it's important, what actually happened and what it really does mean. So I guess to orient us, first off, when are we talking about, when does the Avignon papacy happen?

[B]

So this is one of the reasons why I love it so much. This is 14th century, baby. That's most of you.

[A]

Most of the core of.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And. And so we kick off in 1309 is when the actual papal career moves to Avignon. So, like the actual mechanism of the Church itself leaves Rome and moves to Avignon. But as I'm sure you have surmised, the things that set that ball in motion are happening earlier on. And really, I would say this is one of the biggest stories of the 14th century, and it kicks off right in 1300. That's when things start getting dicey, I would say.

[A]

Yeah, I was trying to work out how to phrase questions to get at the background of all of this. And the question that I wrote down is what's wrong with Rome

[B]

so much. Right. And this is one of the things that I think a lot of people don't quite understand because there is this tendency to relate to the avenue on papacy as well. The French in air quotes sort of get a little too big for their britches and they steal the papacy. And that tends to not understand what's going on in Rome at the time. So one of the things that you have to really keep in mind is that Rome has been. Been a super tricky place for quite some time. In the first place, you have a lot of militarized fighting between two groups of people who are called the Guelphs, who are pro pope, and the Ghibellines, who are pro emperor. And this breaks out in fighting constantly. Constantly. And depending on who gets elected pope, sometimes you kind of have pro Ghibelline popes, sometimes you do not. This really kind of is going to color what is happening in Rome because things get violent very, very quickly. And. And that's true of the rest of the Italian peninsula as well. So, for example, really the Florentines are super involved in this. So there. There's all this very dramatic political horse brokering going on in the backgrounds between these two factions.

[A]

So that's why I'm going to give you a big tick for how quickly you got the Holy Roman Emperor involved there.

[B]

Thank you. Thanks.

[A]

Quick tick for the empire. And I guess a lot of this, as you kind of mentioned there, revolves around papal relations with secular powers, which is that, you know, this is a hot topic throughout the medieval period. We've talked about it before in the context of the Crusades and the ways that popes are trying to galvanize the secular world and almost present themselves as the leader of kings. You know, they're the king of kings kind of positioning themselves all around there. And I think my understanding is, as we lead up to some of this. There's a lot of that still going on. And the Pope is still trying to say, hang on, I'm the boss. Really?

[B]

Yeah. I think that you'll find I'm the guy. Yeah, there's rather a lot of. I'm. I'm actually the guy. And in particular, the best to ever do it with this in the 14th century is a pope called Boniface the VIII. So there's a lot. I'm sorry to everybody. There's a lot of Bonifaces, There's a lot of Clements. That is just what is going down. At the time, it was very much the style, and there are a lot of Benedicts involved in all of this. But Boniface VIII comes into power after the previous pope, Celestine V, abdicated. That was one of the last times there was a big medieval emergency. Remember when the Pope abdicated and then everyone said, is he allowed to do that? Yes, he is. Yes. And Celestine V was real tired of all you people and seems fair, and he got out of here. Right. So Boniface VIII's deal is that he's super, super big on the idea of the Church wielding temporal power. So he is incredibly involved in politics in France, in Sicily, in Scotland, because this is during the Scottish wars of Independence. And he is also really involved in systematizing canon law. So medieval historians, a lot of the time, if we're working on canon law in the late 13th, early 14th century, we're working with his stuff. He. He makes this big book called the Libra Sextus, and we always end up having to go back to it. So, actually, thank you, Boniface. Like, you're a real one. We do appreciate that. The thing is, everybody hates this, right? Like, everybody hates this guy who is in any way secular. Among the prominent haters of Boniface VIII is your friend and mine, Dante Alighieri. This isn't surprising because Dante is a Florentine, and Florentine politics rife with Guelph gibbling issues. And so, indeed, you will find Boniface VIII in the Inferno. He is in hell among the Simoniacs, who are people who buy and sell offices for money. So that's.

[A]

Which is a pretty big thing to say about a Pope for. For Dante, isn't it? You know, the Pope is going to hell. That's a big thing to be saying 100%.

[B]

And it also just goes to show you that popes do this really great version of kind of jumping up and saying, I'm the most important guy. And people in the temporal world are either Going to take that or leave it. And even, you know, Italians are not necessarily going to agree with that. You know, again, Italians in air quotes. There's no such thing as an Italian at the time. Baba da ba. Right. So there are going to be a lot of competing sentiments. But this will really comes to a head with the king of France, Philip

[A]

iv, and who is also another big personality that we're bringing onto the stage now. He is a name that people may recognize. He's involved in lots of stuff that is going on that we'll. We'll touch on a little bit later. But there is some huge personalities around at this point in time.

[B]

Yeah. And these are some of the biggest names in medieval history. And also, you know, the 14th century is one of just the wildest periods of history that ever happened to the world, let alone Europe. Right. And so these are people who are involved in really large international conflicts, I would say. And essentially, Philip IV's problem is that he wants to be able to collect taxes on members of the church, and in particular, he wants to collect taxes on members of the church because he's fighting with England. But you might have heard. You might have heard that the French and the English don't really get on in the 14th century.

[A]

Not always, no. I mean, you know, we've got Edward the First in England at this point. We've got the ongoing wars in Scotland, the Scottish wars of Independence happening. Like I say, there were just some big personalities around that are all butting heads and clashing at this point. And the Pope is desperately trying to elbow his way into the room and say, don't forget about me, guys.

[B]

And so in the first place, he's coming in and saying, oh, well, I should be the arbiter of all this. I should be the one that you ask, oh, Scotland, you should be talking to me, the Pope. Sicily, talk to me, the Pope. And he's certainly going to tell Philip, no, I'm sorry, you can't tax the clergy. To be fair to Philip, you can understand why. Listen, the church is incredibly wealthy at this point in time. They have been tithing rather a lot. We have strayed so far from what St. Francis was attempting to do in the 13th century. Already. Already. Right. And so if you're trying to raise quick cash, it makes sense to try to tax the clergy. But you can also understand why. Why the church wouldn't be particularly down with that. Right.

[A]

Yeah. And at the point where the church is still desperately in. Boniface is still desperately trying to position themselves as superior to kings, it's like, well, hang on, you can't have our tax money. If anything, maybe we should have some of yours.

[B]

Exactly. And this all ends up coming to a head. In 1301, Boniface issues a papal bull that is called Salvator Mundi. This is also a time when there's just a lot of big name papal bulls. Like. Like, there's a lot of barnstormers in here. Right? Okay. So Salvatore Bundy says very particularly, like, okay, well, that is it. We are revoking the former privileges that the French crown had. Because the French crown had some little privileges in particular, they were allowed to choose, for example, their bishops and archbishops. You know, it was like one of these things where in order to get around the investiture controversy, the papacy had said, okay, yeah, usually I get to pick the bishop, but I'm saying that you get to. And so then. Then everyone's happy. Right? And so that was off the table. And in particular, great quote in this one where he says that, quote, God has placed us over the kings and kingdoms. So he says this, right? Right. Like, so the pope is more important than kings and kingdoms.

[A]

He's now explicitly saying what popes have been trying to get at for a very long time. And. And he's saying it to Philip IV of France, of all people, who is

[B]

so powerful and so wealthy and like, it's just. It's crazy. Like, this is crazy work, actually. You're not supposed to go out there and say it. You're supposed to sort of hint at it. Right? Like, that's. That's the thing. So this is not going over very well with Philip. And Philip gets summoned to Rome, and he's like, if you. I'm going to Rome right now, dog. Like, you do not. You do not call me as though I am your puppy. Right? Like the. I. I am the king of France. Right? So 1302, Boniface comes out with a new papal bull. This is a huge one. Unum sanctum. And in it, he specifically, once again, declares papal sanctity and papal universality. Another barnstorm river quote. It is necessary to salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman pontiff.

[A]

I mean, oof. I mean, as they go, that's like, you're not getting into heaven unless you admit I'm the boss. You know that you can't be saved unless you explicitly confirm that I'm in charge of the king of France.

[B]

And look, I can't stress how much this is not normal. Like, this is not. This is not Normal stuff, right? This is. He's having to say this because nobody really thought that previous.

[A]

The thing is, if he was. If he's having to say it and issue paper ball saying it, it means nobody believes it. Nobody's buying what he's saying. It's two balls in two years, saying, I really, really am the boss, guys.

[B]

And. And that is just. So Philip loses it, right? And Philip writes back and says, let thy foolishness know that in temporal things, we are subject to no man. And this is interesting, right, because he's saying, I'm sorry, but the pope's just a guy, right? So he's saying, we are subject to no man. It's reaffirming his status as a human right in terms of temporality.

[A]

It's an interesting tactic, isn't it? Because, I mean, he's calling the pope your foolishness, essentially, rather than your holiness

[B]

or anything like that.

[A]

Let's just go with your foolishness.

[B]

You know that the cardinals were all like, oh, sick burn.

[A]

But he's very carefully not denying the supremacy of God or of the church or of anything like that. He's saying, I don't have to bow much like the hobbits. I don't have to bow to any man.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

He's not God. I admit that. God's up there. I simply don't see the pope in between me and him.

[B]

And you know what? I think that this is actually pretty carefully worded, you know, because he does say in secular things. In secular things, he's like, yeah, buddy, if you want to talk about Valentin fast, we can talk about that. But if you want to tell me how to rule my kingdom, I don't understand what that has to do with you. Fair enough. Fair enough, right? But as I'm sure you guess that you can't just, like, have a sick burn like calling the pope thy foolishness and think that nothing is going to happen. And so in 1303, Boniface excommunicates Philip,

[A]

which is another big. I mean, this is just ramping it up and ramping it up and ramping it up at every turn.

[B]

100%. It's like the temperature is up now. And now, like, granted, people do be getting excommunicated, you know, personal fave. Emperor Frederick II gets excommunicated twice. You know, he seems like.

[A]

It's almost like when he was unexcommunicated, he was like, I want to do that again.

[B]

Was like, why? Why? I guess I haven't been naughty enough, right? Like, it's It's. It's good stuff. So.

[A]

But.

[B]

But Philip is not particularly happy about this in particular because he then threatens to put all of Franz under interdict, which means you are also kind of excommunicated until you get rid of this guy. Essentially, it's. It's sort of like putting a target on someone's back. It's the equivalent of like in John Wick when like they send all of the assassins after him. Right.

[A]

The bounty is up to.

[B]

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

[A]

And it's also. This is what the Pope had done to King John in England 100 years earlier. So Philip has a direct parallel there. You know, this was the green light for the dauphin of France, Louis, to invade England and try and depose John. And this is essentially what the Pope has now done to Philip iv. He. He surely can't let that stand.

[B]

And he does not, to be fair. So what do I.

[A]

Otherwise this would have been a boring story.

[B]

I know. Okay, so this sets up one of my favorite things that has ever happened in medieval history, which Philip then sends troops to arrest Boniface. Of course it works. It works. Which is just absolutely incredible. And it leads to great term alert that what we call the Schiaffo di Agnani or the slap of Agnani. Because the guys who get over there, they just really beat Boniface up. It's. It's a beat down for the ages. And he dies about a month later as a result of just getting worked over.

[A]

Which is sad, but I was imagining kind of WWE entrance music for all of these people coming in with grabbing chairs from the audience to smack the Pope with.

[B]

My God, that's the French soldiers music etc. So like they're getting the loot in. Beep beep beep. That, you know, this, this is. Is a whole situation, right? We have a new Boniface that comes in after this, Boniface ix. He's only Pope for around about a year and he is just trying to take the temperature down. He's just like, listen, listen, listen, listen. Ignore previous Boniface. We are going to re. Communicate Philip. We are excommunicating the guys who killed Boniface the eighth, which fair enough. Yeah, that's a freak.

[A]

There's got to be a bit of comeback, surely.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And he's just like, listen, what we need to do is cool things down. Like everything is. Is too hot. We need to re. Establish some level of. Of normality. But then as I say, he dies like he's elected in a July and he dies the following October. Then we have a new papal conclave. And during said conclave. Now, listen, is some pressure applied to this conclave by Philip Science Point to. Yes, yes, yes. Okay. And this is one of those conclaves that is just going on and on and on. Like people really cannot agree on what to do, but eventually didn't want to

[A]

make a decision because there was no decision here that was going to satisfy everybody. You were going to make an enemy whoever you decide. So it's almost like they go in every day thinking, should we just pretend we're talking about it and we'll say we can't decide at the end of the day.

[B]

Exactly. And you're just like, oh, whoa. There's just so many qualified candidates, I don't know what to do. Because it's a real. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Because on the one hand, the French king, who is arguably outside of the Holy Roman Emperor, the most powerful guy in medieval Europe, is going to be really mad at you. On the other hand, the Romans are going to be really mad at you if you don't elect someone who is going to uphold what they want. Because there's a lot of behind the scenes Italian beef going on, which. That's a Chicago reference. That's fine. It's fine. So listen, eventually we do get a Pope out of this. It's Clement V and he is the Archbishop of Bordeaux, which kind of tells you, warning.

[A]

Claxon. Big French name there.

[B]

Yep, yep. So here we go. We've got a French Pope. And what Clement does next is he just says, yeah, that's cool. I'm not moving to Rome. Oof.

[A]

I like the job, but I don't like the. The office location.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. He's like, listen, we're doing, we're doing some work from home, which actually, no, he doesn't say that. He says that we're, we're going to, we're going to move to Avignon. And the papacy did hold this whole fiefdom around Avignon. It was their lands already. They were drawing considerable income from it. And so he's like, look, we're, we're moving down there. That's, that's what's going to happen instead. And you know, to be fair, part of the reason he says that is, you know, it's not just the Guelphson Gibblings kicking off in Rome at this point, but we also have a lot of friction between the two big Roman noble families, the Orsinis and the Colonnas,

[A]

who were used to Providing Pope. So they're also going to feel kicked in the stomach that they. That one of them isn't providing a pope this time.

[B]

Exactly. Like, that's part of what the contingent was dragging their feet about when they elect Clement V, because they're like, am I going to face retribution from the colonists or the Orsinis about this? And I. I think that this is a really important point because people just sort of forget about it when they say, oh, wow, it's crazy how much pressure the French king was putting on the papacy. I'm like, babe, that's nothing new. Like, Italians are constantly putting pressure on the papacy, and we have these two noble families who are constantly infighting. I mean, quite famously, the recent pope, Pope Nicholas iii, was an Orsini who was also elected as a Roman senator. Right. So, like the. And he's like, making rules about who can and can't be involved in the Roman Senate. And it's like, look, the politics has been there the whole time. It's just that we're used to forgiving Romans for doing it, but when French people do it, everyone's like, hey, wait a minute.

[A]

And I guess we ought to clear up. So having said, begun this by saying what's wrong with Rome? I guess the next question is what's right with Avignon? Because I think there is a perception that moving to Avignon is moving to France. But as you've already said, this is a papal fiefdom already. But I think there is this perception that move to Avignon was very firmly a move into the lands and. And into the sphere of influence of the king of France.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that this is. This is one of these things that is really kind of a modern way of looking at things, because France as it exists now, like, this whole idea of Frenchness is not what was happening at the time. Right. Avignon is very firmly in Ositania, and it is. They've got a different language. They don't. They don't speak French. You know, they speak Ocitan. They are very much a budding Arles, which is not France at the time. Arles is part of the Holy Roman Empire.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, let's. Let's just be so for real about that. And they already owned this land. Like this. This is their land. Right. So this is not really where the French sphere of influence is. The French sphere of influence is north. You know, we talk about this all the time when we talk about Eleanor of Aquitaine, for example, where we're like, look, they just do things Differently in Aquitaine. Even more so in. In southeastern France. Like, this is a part of the world which does not consider itself to be France. And when we say that it is now, that's. That's just a modernism that's kind of leaking into the back. You know, it's an anachronism. That's not something that they would have said at the time.

[A]

Yeah. So we need to be aware that the move to Avignon is about moving to a different place that the Papacy still owns. It's not Rome, but it's. It's papal lands still. It's actually more connected to the Holy Roman Empire than it is to France at the moment. So although they, they look like they're moving to. To a modern sensibility, to a modern geography, it looks like they're moving into the sphere of influence of the King of France. They're not really, at this point.

[B]

No, no. I mean, and down to the fact that if you go to Avignon now, which you should like, a strong recommendation from me, you know, one of the big things that ends up happening is the French king ends up building a huge castle across the river from it in Villeneuve, the Avignon, because he's like, oh, I don't know about you. Because there is still this. This tension between papal and royal power at the time. It isn't just a completely sewn up, done deal. It's much more complex than that, really.

[A]

Yeah. But it must have felt like a moment, though, for the Bishop of Rome not to live in Rome anymore.

[B]

I mean, like, to be fair, that is wild. Like, I'm not, I'm not saying that it isn't weird, but also let us consider that the Roman Empire for quite some time was run out of Ravenna right before we even get to the medieval period. So this concept of Romanness, the trouble with projecting that as a reason to justify what it is that you're doing is that cuts both ways. Right. So if Rome is universal, if the power of the Bishop of Rome is indeed universal, well, then maybe you can do that from anywhere. Right. You don't have to do it in the city that's currently undergoing civil war. Right. There's no reason that the Pope has to necessarily do that. If his power truly is universal.

[A]

Yeah. Hoist by their own petard.

[B]

Real intellectual issue that they've got themselves into. Right.

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[B]

Oh, God, yeah, Yeah. I mean, we could. We could say that. That pretty substantially, because I am going to be real with you. I just gave you these reasons why it's not that bad. Listen, Clement V. Oh, he. He does do some things that are kind of like, very clearly at the behest of Philip iv.

[A]

And you can imagine everyone in Rome going, this is what we meant. This is why we don't want a French.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, primary among these things is he is the guy who condemns one of everybody's favorite groups of people, the Knights Templar. Oopsie.

[A]

Which is. Which is very much doing Philip's work, isn't it? I mean, let's just be clear. It's Philip that wants rid of the Templars.

[B]

Yeah. This is not something that Clement really cares about. Philip wants rid of them. He sees an opportunity to get hold of a lot of ready cash. You know, again, one of the big themes of his. His rule as king is that he doesn't have enough money to accomplish what he wants to do militarily. And. And he's looking at what is essentially an order of bankers at this point in time, and he's thinking, well, I would like to get hold of that. So when in 1314. So this is only five years after the Curia has moved to Avignon, they actually condemn the Templars at the Council of Vin alongside Clement V on stage. Yeah. Philip is there, and so is his son, who is the King of Navarre.

[A]

I mean, it couldn't be more clear what's going on. I mean, Philip is very clearly getting some very tangible rewards very quickly from this situation.

[B]

Yeah. So, listen, I think that people are too quick to make this entire situation really cut and dried. This is. This is about French power. But then there are certain things where I'm like, yeah, dog, that's bad. I don't think that is good. You know, one of the big things that happens at Veen, quite famously, is that Clement says, no one can talk unless I say you can. So the Knights Templar aren't able to defend themselves at all. And then basically, Philip takes all of their stuff. Now, having said this, Philip's not the only ruler who benefits from that. Quite famously, the English king is very happy to jump in on that as well, which is how the temple goes into the crown's hands here in London. Right. So it's just that, you know, Philip was there. Like, this is a direct request from Philip. Let's be so for real about it right now, you know.

[A]

Yeah. Because it does feel like Edward II in England is very much dragging his heels around the Templar stuff. It's not something he's interested in, it's not something he particularly wants. I don't think he agrees with Philip, but he's also feeling the pressure from Philip and now from the Pope as well. And everybody's saying the Templars are really, really bad. And it kind of makes you look bad if you don't go along with that.

[B]

Exactly. Like, I mean, there's a pretty big propaganda war happening. He's trying to sort of justify himself and what it is he's doing. So if everyone is really saying, yeah, that the Templars are a problem, you know, cracking down on them is kind of a way of proving your bona fides, as it were. Like saying, oh, yeah, well, I am a reformer, though. Like, this is, this is all in the name of reform, because the, the Knights Templar have a ton of money and a lot of influence. You know, we, we are quite soft towards them now because, yeah, things got a little bit crazy, but they're not exactly like someone to look up to in terms of what it is they're doing at the time. They're just bankers. That. That's all that is happening right now. Like, I wouldn't feel too, too worried about it, personally.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And I guess then we have this, you know, period in which we get successive French popes, which I think we have to allow ourselves to see the influence of the French king in there. All of a sudden, it's this break with what had previously been an almost exclusively Roman club is now becoming an almost exclusively French club. So how many popes are there? And are they all French? And are they. Are they good popes, Are they bad popes? Or are they a little bit of both popes?

[B]

So we have seven Avignon popes. There are more, but those are anti popes. And listen, babe, we do not have time to do the Western schism today. That's. That's an episode for a later date.

[A]

Boohoo. I'm just going to say, though, that the term antipope always makes me laugh. I don't know what it is about it, but the idea of an antipope just makes me laugh.

[B]

You know what? I just. I love it. I'm like another Pope for your troubles. My favorite is when there's three popes. But again, a later date. A later date. Right, okay. So they're all French. Yes, they're all French of varying degrees. And I would say they're a Real mixed bag. Some of them are kind of terrible popes, but my favorite pope of all time is. Is one of them. So you get Clement V, you know, moves. Moves the Curia to Avignon. You can feel how you want to feel about that. Condemns the Templars. That's bad. He does some things I like. Like, at a point in time, he tries to make a. An alignment with the Mongols to fight against the Muslims. And I think that's fun. I think it's, like, really cute where he's like, we're going to have a French Mongol alliance. And I'm like, oh, he's international. Like,

[A]

I was like, the idea of the Mongols being like, what. What on earth would we need you for?

[B]

So good. After him, we get John the 22nd. I would argue this is a bad guy. Um, he will be one of several popes who is in conflict with the emperor, Louis the Bavarian. He didn't want to support Louis the Bavarian's election to be Holy Roman Emperor because he sort of had. He only had five out of the seven votes. You had to have seven at the time. It's a whole thing. And, you know, that's one thing or another. Louis the Bavarian, he's a slippery character, and no one really likes him in the papacy. But he also beefs with a group of guys who I think are cool, who are the Spiritual Franciscans. And the Spiritual Franciscans are a group of Franciscans who are like, hey, guys, remember when everyone said we were going to do apostolic poverty? Yeah. Like, remember how we were supposed to, like, beg? And now we're really rich. Maybe, maybe we should stop doing that. John the 22nd hates this, and he really cracks down on the Spiritual Franciscans and he declares them heretics, which is. Is sad because I think that they were a good group of guys. My, My heart is always with reformers. So we don't like John the 22nd very much. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Bad guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I wonder, as we go through these popes, kind of, what is this doing for the idea of the papacy trying to position itself above secular authorities? Because it sounds a little bit like, you know, I mean, getting dragged into the politics of the empire is. Is one thing. The papacy is always kind of had its feet in there. But are they getting dragged into French politics? Are they getting dragged into more wide secular politics in Western Europe? And. And are they doing that kind of as. Are they at any stage a puppet of the French king at this point? You know, are they losing that idea that they stand above secular rulers? Because they're becoming so influenced by the French king.

[B]

It really depends on the Pope, is the answer to that. Because people like the Clements, I would say both the Clements, Clements V and Clements VI are really, really involved in court politics. And then others, much less so. Right. Like John the 22nd. One of his deals with his conflict with Louis the Bavarian is. I think he's kind of trying to prove that secular rulers don't tell him what to do. Right. You know, that he can kind of do varying things. You know, his follow up, who is a Benedict xii, he's a really big reformer, right. Like, one of the things that he's expressly trying to do is, is show that he's not like other popes. Right. He's not like Clement V. He's not like John the 22nd, who condemns spiritual Franciscans and is trying to meddle in politics. He is expressly like, hey, guys, I actually, we have too much money there. We've got real big problems with simony and people buying office. The. The church has too much money. Let's. Let's get back to brass tacks, right? And so he's actually pretty well liked by varying people. Not. Not the King of France. Right. Like, he does not. They don't really get on with Benedict xii, which is how you end up with Clement vi, who's a guy I'm really interested in. Clement VI comes in in 1342 and he is drawn from the court of King Charles.

[A]

I mean, have we just given up any pretense here? You know, we're just gonna now get a French courtier to be Pope.

[B]

Oh. And like, listen, this is such a tricky one, right? Because. So I'm really interested in. In CLE was the tutor of my favorite emperor, the Emperor Charles iv. Right. And Emperor Charles IV grows up at the French court even though he's Czech Just, just because his mom tried to revolt against his dad. What? Like, you know, Czech girls aren't allowed to have any fun ever. But so that's why he's called Charles as he names himself after his uncle. And Clement VI is his tutor before he becomes. Before he becomes the Pope. And there's like this probably, like, probably it's a fake quote or it's like someday Clement says, oh, you're going to be Emperor someday to Charles. And Charles says, oh, not before you're going to be Pope. Hey, razzle dazzle, you know, but you cannot say that Clement VI isn't like an excessive Pope. Like, he is spending money on art. He is really Putting a lot of money into the papal palace that is being built in Avignon. He is at court constantly. Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

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[B]

Yeah, and he does a great job on that, you know, and you know, he is super involved in politics because like the reason Charles IV gets elected the emperor in the first place. I mean, Louis the Bavarian is still the emperor and like Charles is kind of like an anti emperor, if you will. And I will. But then Louis dies on a bear hunt and then everyone goes, ah, screw it, we'll just go with Charles, that's fine. But then the other thing that happens at this period is that this is when the Black Death kicks off. And so Clement is very much on the throne for that. And when people are like, hey, I think that maybe the Black Death is happening because see that palace you're living in? And he's like, I don't know what you're talking about. Right, so what palace? Who? What? So he's he's not, I would say, a particularly popular Pope Europe wide. Yeah, we could say that. We could certainly say that about Clement. But then his successor, who is innocent Vi. He's pretty cool. Like, he's a pretty cool guy. And he's like, oh, it looks like we are bankrupt.

[A]

Yeah, we're poor again.

[B]

Yeah, he's like, making a virtue of necessity. He's like, oh, no. Because, like, I really believe in reform. And like, he's, he's selling the art that Clement bought. He is like, saying, guys, like the. I'm serious, the Black Death keeps happening. We've really got to refocus on God. He spends a lot of time trying to intercede with war. That is happening in Italy. Like, he, He. He's a pretty good dude. He's. He's kind of saying, everybody, like, stop fighting each other. We've got a plague on and there are bigger fish to fry. So he is a pretty good guy. We like, We. We like him, like, innocent. The six is a good guy.

[A]

It's a conversational buzzkill, though, isn't it? What we don't want, there is a perfectly competent man who is dealing with the issues of the day, right?

[B]

And, and that's the thing, right? It's. It's so easy to say, oh, the Avignon papacy, it's this, this terrible political thing. But there are, There are people in there who are genuinely trying to do their best in very difficult circumstances. And really, like, while the Black Death has broken out. Are you gonna tell anyone? I'm sorry. You need to go back to Rome. Like, babe, half of everyone there is dead. Like, we can't even get the baggage train sorted out, right? Like, there's not enough people to be marching around. So, like, no, it turns out it

[A]

was a good idea to leave Rome, right?

[B]

I know, right?

[A]

We did it 40 years early as well. You know, a bit of forethought.

[B]

We just, we just saw it coming, you know, that's. That's what's going on.

[A]

This period as well. It's been referred to as the Babylonian Captivity. The idea that the Pope is a prisoner in France, and also that, that it's becoming increasingly kind of wanton and concerned with worldly things. As you mentioned there, buying artwork, building palaces and all of that kind of thing. And I think that quote might have come from someone like Petrarch, but it does seem to reflect a kind of a growing dissatisfaction with ecclesiastical wealth. We're moving towards a period of increased religious reform at the end of this century where those things will really, really intensify. Is it a fair charge to lay at the Avignon papacy? Because we've just talked about spending lots of money on art and building palaces. Are they becoming more avaricious? Is this a more splendid court than you might have seen in Rome?

[B]

It certainly is a more splendid court. And listen, if you want to talk about Clement vi, I will give it to you all day long. The man's avaricious. He is ostentatious. It's often said that at this point in time, the cardinals are. Are living much nicer lives than they ever had been before. And, you know, this idea that they are the princes of the church really takes off at. At this point. And listen, they're drinking Chateau Neuf to pap. Every day, babe.

[A]

Oh, perfect.

[B]

Like, they're. They're. They're living the life. And so under Clement, you know, in the 1340s to early 1350s, like, that is absolutely true. But I do think the last three Avignon popes, they are not doing that at all. You know, you've got lovely little innocent Vi, and then you've got Urban V, who's arguably my favorite pope. Yay. Yay. I just love Urban. I just think he's great because you can really see in all of his correspondence him grappling with the various pressures that he is receiving, both from the French side. And he's in constant contact with Charles I. Forth. So obviously, like, this is why I know my boy, right? And my reform preacher that I work on all the time, Jan Millich of Grumberjeez is writing to him all the time because he's like, no, you get it. You get it. You understand what I mean? We're. You and I, baby, we're going to take on the world. We're going to reform the church. And Urban V really tries. He tries to move back to Rome, right? He gives it a go, and he goes in 1367 back to Rome, and he's like, okay, look, we're gonna try, but Rome, at the time, again, is experiencing civil war. This is the time around when we have, like, the tribune cola di rienzo. This is when Petrarch is writing. So we have a lot of. You know, there's a lot of people talking trash about Avignon. Well, that's because Petrarch is trying to argue that Rome should be the center of the world again. And it's like, honey, it's been, like, 800 years. You might want to let it go, you know, and. And, like, it's in tatters. Like, There's. There's a major, major civil war going on, and Urban V tries so hard to move the papacy back, and ultimately he can't do it. He can't make it stick. So in 1370, he goes back to Avignon and dies. And so there you see this real willingness to. To do the best that you can, but the circumstances in Rome are simply too violent. And I. I think that gets swept under the rug a lot. And now listen, my preacher would tell you, Millich would tell you, he would say, okay, yeah, like, Rome is violent, but you're the Pope. Who cares? Like it. I don't care whether or not your personal safety is threatened. But that's super easy to say when it's not your personal safety. Right? Yeah.

[A]

So I guess as we're coming towards the end of the Avignon papacy, should we think about the Avignon papacy as being a period that has changed? The papacy has being out of Rome made a significant change to the Pope, the papacy. The way that. I was gonna say the way that Rome sees itself. But they're obviously not in Rome the way that Avignon sees itself. Or is there an extent to which this is a lot of Rome, Petrarch, people like that Rome is throwing mud at Avignon because they want the Pope back.

[B]

I mean, I think that you are actually right. I think it has made a change to how Rome sees itself, because Rome is undergoing an existential crisis as a result of this, fundamentally. And it's one that we've sided with because we like Roman history and that's. It's just like a modern thing. We're like, well, yeah, obviously we. Everybody should always like Romeo. But I think it also does obviously make a huge difference to everyone in Avignon because they're like, yes, sorry, buddy, my entire livelihood depends on building this palace now. You know, I import things specifically for. For these guys, but it is very much considered to be a time of soul searching to an extent. You know, like these last seven years popes really, I think, are. They're. They're quite good because I think that they are aware of how mad everyone is about this. And so they're. They're kind of trying to say, like, yes, I hear you. I understand you. And they're kind of trying to thread the needle between what the reformers are saying and also not wanting to go to a city that's on fire. Right. Like, the last proper Avignon is Pope Gregory xi. He's trying really hard to do political things that are good. Right. Like, he's trying to stop the Hundred Years War. His whole thing is that he's trying to intercede with Christians who are fighting each other. And I have to say that's an unambiguous Good. Right. That is certainly a good thing to attempt to do. But there are some facts about. About what happens during the Avignon's papacy. Tithes across the church are increased by about 10%. And this is because they have.

[A]

Taxes are up. Nobody's happy.

[B]

No one's happy. And. And they're using it to build a new papal palace. This is interesting because it's kind of like a precursor to what happens when Martin Luther kicks off. Off. Right. Because when the whole selling indulgences, things happen. That's to pay for the Sistine Chapel. Right. So, like, whenever the papacy decides that it wants to redecorate, ordinary people pay for that. And. And that's not good. Right. I don't think that that is good. Truly. The cardinals are living it up. Say what you want about the popes, but like the cardinals are. They're living that lifestyle at this point in time. And also I think that we do have to be very hypercritical about what goes on with the Templars in 1314. I think that, that, that is pretty, pretty bad. We should certainly say this. And we do see these massive reactions on the part of ordinary people. So, you know, you have the Spiritual Franciscans, the Fratelli, who are a group who rises up against this. There's also in the Italian lands, the Waldensians, who don't care for this, and they make a little heresy about that. The Lollards here in England have rather a lot to say about this state of affairs. And this is also going to be one of the things that the Hussites really latch onto later as well. So it opens the church up to a lot of criticisms very specifically, because. Yes. Is their personal safety threatened? Yeah. But if you are truly universal also. Yeah, okay, you could be an Avignon. But if. If really what it is is about doing God's bidding, then who cares that, you know, your lifestyle is somewhat threatened by the war? Outside is kind of the idea. You should, in theory be having your mind on greater things. And if you are doing the correct religious thing, then why do you care if Rome is burning outside your window? Get out there and do your job. Right. It'd hardly be the first time Rome is burning.

[A]

God going to protect you, of all people.

[B]

Yeah. You know, and so, like. And if you look at earlier justifications for why the Bishop of Rome is Important, they, it all hinges on being in Rome and proximity to the saints that are buried there and things of this nature. So, you know, but, but then again, Rome's a large tent. Okay. Like, the idea of Rome is bigger than the city itself. But I, I just think that it's incredibly important for us when we talk about the ebony on papacy, to understand how complex all of these ideas are at the time.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And just to bring it to an end then. We've seen the Pope try, seen a couple of popes try to go back to Rome and find it really, really difficult. How. How do they end up bringing this period to a close? How does the Pope end up back in Rome?

[B]

Well, the Pope ends up back in Rome because everybody wants the Pope to be back in Rome at this point in time. So, like, really, really Gregory xi, he does it, he returns. So he takes the papacy back. He returns on the 13th of September, 1376, and he is then in Rome for two years until his death. And after he dies, there is a lot of pressure to elect a new Roman pope. They elect not a Roman pope, but a Napolitan pope, which is kind of seen as good enough. But the French cardinals say that they were basically like threatened into it, and that's how you get the Western schism. But the point is that these last popes, these last popes, Pope Urban V, Pope Gregory xi, they were trying, they were trying super hard to. To end the Avignoni's papacy, but it's just that the political circumstances were such that they were unable to do it. And I just think it's not fair to look at Clement V, to look at Clement VI and tarnish all these guys with the same brush, because some of them are actually super religious and really interesting.

[A]

Yeah. And it's also, it strikes me as odd that the reason we're talking about this today, obviously we're not going to get into contemporary politics, but the reason we're talking about this is because the idea of the Avignon papacy has somehow sprouted up as a threat. But it doesn't feel to me like anything that you've just described is something that you could use as a threat. The papacy moved to different papal lands and carried it on its business.

[B]

Exactly. And yes, there is. There are a couple of popes that are certainly entwined with the French court, but not most of them. Most of them are actually trying to do the right thing in really difficult circumstances. And pretty much the reason that the papacy moves isn't because of this political entanglement. Necessarily. It's also because of the political instability that was happening in Rome at the time. And any analysis that overlooks those very real dangers is juvenile at best, I would say.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It feels a little bit like maybe the Western schism is, is the threat rather than the, the Avignon papacy itself being a threat.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But maybe that's a story for another day.

[B]

Absolutely. Listen, I would love to get into the Western schism at another point in time, but it's very important to note that the Avignon East Papacy and the Western schism are two different things. Do you have a pope in Avignon after that? Sure. But there's seven of them who are legitimate popes and no one argues that they aren't.

[A]

Yeah. And then we get back to anti popes. My favorite word.

[B]

Yay.

[A]

Well, thank you so much for allowing me out of the dungeon to come and invade your episode earlier in the week. It's been fascinating for me to get my head around the Avignon Papacy a little bit more and maybe to understand why it's been appearing in the news and perhaps why it's not been appearing in the right way in the news.

[B]

Yuli, listen, I am so glad that there was someone to come and listen to me yell about this thing that I love so very much. Thank you, Matt.

[A]

Thank you very much.

[B]

Thank you so much to Matt once again for joining me from his dungeon. And thank you for listening to Gone and Evil from History Hit. If you were interested in some of the topics we mentioned in this episode, you might want to go back and check out our past episodes on the Investiture contest and the Knights Templar. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award winning original TV documentaries series, including my recent documentary on the trials of Joan of ARC, and ad free podcasts by signing [e-mail] subscription. You can follow Gone Medieval on Spotify, where you can leave us comments and suggestions or wherever you get your podcasts and tell all your friends and family that you've gone medieval. Until next time, Acast Powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Hello?

[C]

Hello, it's Brooke Devard from Naked Beauty. Join me each week for unfiltered discussion about beauty trends, self care, journeys, wellness tips, and the products we absolutely love and cannot get enough of. If you are a skincare obsessive and you spend 20 plus minutes on your skincare routine, this podcast is for you. Or if you're a newbie at the beginning of your skincare journey, you'll love this podcast as well. Because we go so much deeper than beauty. I talk to incredible and inspiring people from across industries about their relationship with beauty. You'll also hear from skincare experts. We break down lots of myths in the beauty industry. If this sounds like your thing, search for naked beauty on your podcast app and listen along. I hope you'll join us.

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