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- [00:02]
Matt Lewis
From long lost Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr. Elena Jarninger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life. Only on History Hit with your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with with a brand new release every week exploring everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com subscribe.
- [00:43]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
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- [01:11]
Grow Therapy Announcer
law Everyone treats summer like it owes you happiness. Long days, pool parties, your best life on a loop. So what does it mean when you feel worse? The summer blues are real. It's why summer is one of the busiest stretches of the year for people starting therapy. GrowTherapy is here for all the moments when you decide you want more. More support, more clarity, more tools. GROW connects you with thousands of high quality licensed therapists across the US Offering both virtual and in person sessions, nights and weekends. The therapist you want takes Your insurance on Growing Grow accepts over 125 insurance plans. Sessions average $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com acast today to get started. That's growtherapy.com acast growtherapy.com acast availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.
- [02:12]
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- [02:39]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Hello, I'm Dr. Eleanor Jaenega and welcome to Gone Medieval From History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details and the latest groundbreaking research. From the Vikings to the Normans from kings to popes to the Crusades. We delve into the rebellions, plots and murders that tell us who we really were and how we got here. Imagine a land where sunlight is seldom seen. A land where, as the winds cool and the frost spreads, the mountains, rivers and shores creep slowly into darkness. For months on end, the sun is replaced by the cold shine of the
- [03:34]
Matt Lewis
moon for those who are lucky enough
- [03:37]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
to see it at all. Mountains once towering overhead, now blend into the night sky as a wall of darkness, with only the comfort of firelight beckoning people towards the certainty of home. Gales batter against the turf, houses with unrelenting ferocity, screaming through the cracks as if hell bent on snuffing out the fires. The room where everyone gathers is warm. It's thick with the smell of livestock and people. But this is where they're safe. Thick layers of peated earth keep the inhabitants warm, dry, and shielded from whatever is moving in the blackness. People talk and laugh and craft and choke. As the fire crackles and the laughter lulls. The stories begin. Tales that frighten. Tales of what happens out there in the dark. Months go by, and the stories continue one long winter into the next.
- [04:53]
Matt Lewis
Times change, traditions change.
- [04:56]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Even gods change. For generation after generation, those tales, those creatures, those reasons to be afraid, they're still passed down. They're still told today. I'm Dr. Eleanor Jaunega, and in this episode of Gone Medieval, we're going to uncover the stories behind the Icelandic folk legends which families continue to tell. Today I'm joined by Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir, an Icelandic folklorist at the University of Iceland.
- [05:34]
Matt Lewis
Her research has included the topics of cannibalism, Ouija board traditions and supernatural beings.
- [05:41]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And she's recently published a fabulous book, Ghosts, Trolls and the Hidden People, an anthology of Icelandic folk legends.
- [05:54]
Matt Lewis
Welcome to God Medieval.
- [05:56]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
Thank you. So happy to be here.
- [05:58]
Matt Lewis
I am so excited to have you here because I am obsessed with Icelandic folklore, but don't know enough about it, which I think is true of most people, right? Or at least they should be excited about Icelandic folklore like I am. I guess it. I'm going to start you off with a really easy question.
- [06:17]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
Okay.
- [06:17]
Matt Lewis
Even though you might say this is too big, are there any particular folktales that you have kind of a personal connection to? Like anything that really for you is the folk tale of your heart?
- [06:31]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
Yes, it definitely is. Because in Iceland, some families are said to have family ghosts, and my family actually has a family ghost. And it is a bit of an Old story that relates to it. He's called Ennis Mori. So that story is absolutely one of my favorites. And it's of course, where it has a big connection to for me and a lot of meaning. And I first heard it when I was very young. My father is also a folklorist, as I am, and he once told me this story when we were driving home from Reykjavik, because I live in the more rural parts of Iceland, in the Westfjords, also often connected to sorcery and magic and all strange things. But we were driving home and I was very bored, as kids often are in cars. And I think he had gotten a bit sick of the question, are we almost there? So when we were driving past this particular farm, he told me that that was the place where our family ghost lived. And I was quite surprised because I hadn't heard about this family ghost before and I wanted to know more. And the story. And the story tells of a young man who was in love with a girl and asks her to marry him. And the girl doesn't want to marry him, so she turns him down. And he gets very upset and angry. And as one does, he goes out and decides to raise a ghost to send to her to get revenge. And a quick side note, in Iceland, if you want to raise a ghost, you go out to the graveyard in the middle of the night and. And you take your place in front of the grave of the one that you are bringing back and you start noting all these words of sorcery. And when you've done that, the first thing of the ghost that pops out of the grave is the hat. And then you have to grab the hat and you lick the foam that comes from the mouth of the corpse or the ghost. This is not very pleasant, but that's not. And that's not enough because when you've done that, the rest of the ghost climbs out of the grave and. And then you have to win it in a wrestling match, because ghosts in Iceland are quite physical. But anyways, this man, he goes to the graveyard, does all this, sends the ghost to the girl, and when the ghost arrives, it stops in front of her living room and peeks inside the keyhole to see what's happening inside. And inside she and her family are eating pudding and the ghost decides to turn itself into a tiny little fly. And it flies through the keyhole and sits down in the spoon of the girth. And she doesn't notice this. So she puts the spoon with the fly or the ghost in it in her mouth and when the ghost is inside her mouth, it springs up to full size so her head explodes. And this is one of the few splatter stories in Icelandic folklots. In folk stories, but the ghost is very powerful. It goes back and kills the sorcerer that brought it back and then follows the family of this girl. And ghosts, they can stay around for nine generations or 300 years, whatever comes first. Then they kind of disappear or go back or whatever happens to them. But they won't follow people for longer than that. But this girl was my ancestor in a way. So the ghost decide to follow my family and a couple other families in the area.
- [10:06]
Matt Lewis
I really like this story for 8 million reasons. Okay, first among them. I really like the idea that you really have to want it if you're going to raise a ghost. You know, I don't think I've ever wanted anything enough to lick the foam off the mouth of a ghost. So that's, that's good. But, but also it's really interesting to me because one of the things when you're interested in the study of ghosts, right, that people will say is, well, why, why isn't the world full of ghosts? Why, why aren't they, you know, always around? Why aren't we constantly tripping over them? And this is great for me because I'm like, aha, See there's a, there's a timer. So we got a 300 year timer here. Thank you very much. So that's very good.
- [10:50]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
It's a hassle. And then they can only hang around for a certain time.
- [10:56]
Matt Lewis
Well, I have always been really interested in the medieval Icelandic ghost stories because there's so many of them. It's just a really fruitful place to, to go looking for them. And as you say, a lot of them are kind of centered in, in the western part of the island because it's so spooky. But can you, before we get into all that, tell us a little bit about what it's like to actually be alive in Iceland in the medieval period? Like, well, what's it like for the people who are telling these stories?
- [11:25]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
Well, people of course came to Iceland around 930 maybe and established their parliament or the parliament. ALFINKI AL thinkl Icelanders then became Christian in the year 1000 and were trying to figure out how to live in this country because people came from, most of them came from the other Nordic countries and then the Celtic areas. And I mean it was a very, as always, is. I mean a lot of different things were happening taking place at Once people were figured out where to live, how to live. And Iceland is very rural at the time, and remained very rural for a long, long, long time. And people lived in these turf houses made of turf and stone and trees and other natural elements. And the home was considered to be the workplace and the place where people would gather and the place where people got education and all that. Of course, we don't have as much information on the medieval period as we do in later periods when people had written more down. But there are some very old Icelandic texts, of course, preserved, and we do have books like Iceland Ingebok, or manuscripts, where it is described how people in Iceland settled and where they stayed and how they divided the land amongst themselves and where people came from and so on. So, I mean, it is a very, very interesting time. And there we also, of course, in these older stories that were written down in the 13th century or so, we have some of the motifs that you see in the newer stories, like the story about my family ghost, that is from the 19th, early 20th century, where most of the Icelandic folk legends were collected. But it was rough in Iceland for a long period as well. I mean, it is a harsh environment. There were. People got sick people, there was high mortality of children, for example.
- [13:24]
Matt Lewis
So what role would you say that winter plays in telling stories like these?
- [13:30]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
In Iceland during the winter, we had this big event where people would gather. It's called kviltvaka, or the evening wake. And people would gather in the. The biggest room of the farm where they would be working and they would be telling stories while they worked to make it more enjoyable, to make time pass faster. But also it had a very educational role in the life of the farm that these stories carried with the messages and, and that they would mix everything together. You would read religious text, read from the Icelandic sagas, you would tell stories from oral tradition. You would tell news of what was. So it was like a very important and very central to the farm life as well, this event of storytelling that took place in the winter. So it was something that. And that was something that went on for quite a long time, almost until the islands became less rural. People would meet often more. And then when the radio arrived and people went to school and all these changes affected those moments of telling stories, although in many Icelanders still very much enjoy telling stories, as people everywhere do. I mean, people love stories.
- [14:50]
Matt Lewis
I. I guess this makes perfect sense as well, because if you think about it, especially in a world before electricity and central heating, it makes a lot of sense to get everybody Together in one room where it's warm. You only have to worry about lighting and heating that room and also getting more people in. That's going to keep it nice and warm. And I mean, unfortunately, work's still going to have to get done, so you may as well do it in a group and have a little bit of fun while you're at it.
- [15:15]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
Right, exactly.
- [15:20]
Matt Lewis
But also, I think that it makes sense that a lot of these stories end up being creepy. Right, because you've got a very long, very dark winter, and so you have a lot of shadowy places. Can you tell us a little bit about the creatures that are lurking out there in the night?
- [15:40]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
Yes, definitely. So, as I said, Iceland was very rural. And it's true we have for long periods it is very dark in Iceland, although we're now in. In summer where there is no darkness at all. And it's. It's light out all day and all night. But for long, the longest time, it is, of course, very dark in Iceland. And the turf houses, they were not very bright. It wasn't very bright inside of them. And you would have these tunnels you'd have to go through. And it was made of all these natural ele that would be creaking and cracking and I mean, it's very easy to see how you. All these strange sounds coming from outside and inside would be a little bit frightening, of course. And people in the past were afraid of the dark, just as we are today, of course, although they might have been more used to it than we are now in a ways as well. But there are a lot of supernatural beings in Iceland and it's very interesting because many of them are quite tied to the landscape in a way, and then to certain places as well. So, for example, close to the farm, there are often told stories of the hidden people or the elves that are kind of like the invisible neighbors of Icelanders at the time. While up in the mountains and further away into the wilderness you would have trolls, where Icelanders, of course, had to wander every once in a while they had to travel and. And they did travel quite a lot between places. Going to church, going to fetch and get all sorts of things and herd sheep up on the mountains after the summer and so on. And there you would have the trolls and you would have the outlaws that were also almost kind of supernatural. Ghosts, of course, can lurk almost anywhere where there's dark. They will hide in your house and at church and behind a stone somewhere where you're working and. And traveling. Then, of course, Iceland is surrounded by ocean. So when you're out on a boat, you're not safe because you have all these different sea monsters and mer people that might be out to get you. So, I mean, danger seems to be lurking almost anywhere in Iceland.
- [17:51]
Matt Lewis
And you've already mentioned a couple of creatures that I'm sort of familiar with, more particularly from Norse legends, like trolls. Right. Are there other similarities that we can find kind of a through line between Norse supernatural creatures and Icelandic ones?
- [18:06]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
Yes, definitely. And there are a lot of similarities between the Icelandic folk legends and the ones that are found in other Nordic countries and the Celtic countries where people came from when they settled Iceland. And of course, when they came, they brought with them all sorts of, like, all their luggage, all their belongings, but also all their stories and other beliefs that kind of then inhabited the Icelandic landscape as well as. So there are a lot of. Lot of similarities. Although what I always find very interesting is also to look at the differences, because you might have similar stories told here and in a different place, but then there is something that is a little bit different because the stories also adapt to the society which tells them. So it is a little bit interesting to look at what those differences are. What is it that is maybe different between these countries and how does that reflect in the legends? In a way, so there are similarities, but there are also also some differences in Icelandic. We don't. For example, in the 19th, 20th centuries, folk legends, we do not have a lot of forest creatures because there weren't many. So, I mean, that is something that is just the landscape has an effect on what. What type of stories we have and what. What we don't. So that is always what I find very interesting as well.
- [19:34]
Matt Lewis
That makes a lot of sense to me. So I was really struck because I'm quite interested also in, you know, the Irish stories of the other world. And that reminds me a bit of the hidden people that come up in Icelandic folklore. But it's really interesting because we don't find the hidden people in medieval Icelandic literature. You find trolls, you got the ghosts, everybody's got ghosts. And, you know, the trolls are definitely this Nordic thing, but we don't have the hidden people, even though the hidden people are quite common. Now, do you think that this is the case of there was a belief that existed and nobody was writing it down, or do you think this is just more of a through line that develops a little bit later?
- [20:18]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
I mean, it's so hard to tell when we don't have the written sources for it. But there are mentions of like, some land spirits, for example, in some of the old Norse texts. And some of these have some similarities to maybe the elves or the hidden people that we talk about in Iceland. And the fact that they are so similar to the ones that we have in the Celtic areas, they maybe indicate that there were some relevance. I mean, also because they believe in the hidden people. And elves is so related to the land because they live in the hills and they live in the rocks and they live somewhere in the land around us, in the landscape. So these kind of. These ideas that there are sacred spots, areas that you can't ruin, or else something bad will happen to you, the elves or the hated people will get revenge on you. Those are ideas that we see that you can't ruin. Specific places of land, for example, and those are very similar to the Castic stories. So it's hard to tell, but I think we have traces of it, definitely.
- [21:31]
Matt Lewis
All right. Speaking of the fact that you have these ties to the land, you're not supposed to be ruining varying places or the hidden people get annoyed with you. One of the things you really stress in your book is that the creatures that inhabit Iceland, they kind of come in different environments. So you've got farm ones and wilderness ones and church ones, ocean ones, or even shoreline, which is not the same as ocean, right?
- [21:59]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
No, no, no.
- [22:00]
Matt Lewis
And that seems to me that we do see this kind of connection to what we see in Viking sagas, because they talk a lot about ocean things and shore things. And in both these stories and the Viking ones, we see a lot about what darkness means in these places. Can you tell us a little bit about how that creeps into the stories?
- [22:26]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
I think since you mentioned the ocean, I mean, it is. The ocean is a dangerous place, but people nevertheless have to go there because we have to get fish. We have to hunt. At this time, people were hunting seal, and they were. It was important source of food as well. It's an Icelandic saying. And none elsewhere as well, of course, that the ocean takes and gives back as well. So it is a dangerous place. And it's also a mysterious place. I mean, the ocean is, as of still today, there's so much of the ocean that we don't know that hasn't been explored yet even. And those are the prime. That's the prime environment for stories. Something that is a little bit mysterious, something that we don't know, something that we are curious about, somewhere where we go. And there we have these giant beings as well. We have the whales that when you're out on your rowing boat. I own a. I own a sea kayak. And just the other day I was out kayaking when all of a sudden this idea struck me. What if I get eaten by whale? Because they're so big and you're so small when you're out at sea. So I mean, we do. And the line between the natural and the supernatural in these stories is very thin in a way. Many whales that we recognize today are given supernatural abilities in these stories. So they are turned monstrous and they are. So that's also what I find very interesting. These animals that kind of become supernatural or dangerous or, or incredibly smart and have these human like abilities as well in these stories. And of course now we attribute similar stories to space, which is a place that is also hasn't been very much explored. People are going there sometimes out of necessity, but also just because we're very curious. But I mean, and we attribute the same stories, but so these mysterious, dangerous places, they draw us to them, I will say. And, and of course that was also the fact in Vik times or settlement periods and then where people were still doing exploring and they knew even less maybe about what was out there, so to say. So, so we have these flights as well of this, of the sea being a dangerous place both then and in the 19th century and, and to a degree I think we still find a little bit mysterious today as well.
- [24:59]
Matt Lewis
Speaking of the settlement period of Iceland, you know, this is one of these areas where we are really dependent. I mean, we call it legend when you write it down, right? It's like if we've got a saga, we're like, okay, it's a legend. Sometimes we can, we can squint at it in order to get the history. And that kind of differentiates it slightly from what we now call folklore. But do we know how people are actually telling these stories at the time? Because obviously, you know, somebody writes it down, but most people aren't actually reading anything off of a manuscript at the time, are they?
- [25:36]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
In Iceland, people started to publish publications. They started happening around maybe the 15th century or so, if I remember correctly. And they had written material that came from other places, from abroad, for example, that they were reading. And of course people had more books after printing started and but before that they were writing manuscripts and people were reading those as well. But of course, oral tradition was the most important element as well. People would recite stories and tell them to others and they would retell them and so on and so forth. And for the longest time people would also think that maybe people were only retelling stories and when they would change as stories do, when a lot of people tell them they. I mean they do change a little bit each time. That if people would tell them differently, that was because they had messed up or they had forgotten something. But then now it's much more. We looked at us, they were. That was not the case. But good storytellers, when they are telling stories, they also move them around. And when you're telling a story and you want it to be a little bit frightening, you want it to happen on the next farm, but not in a different way, different areas. So you move stories and you make them more exciting and you adapt them to the group that is listening. And that is of course as well what was happening. And I mean you tell different stories to children, then you turn to adults and you tell them in different ways and all of that. So you can find in many places in Iceland you will find very similar stories in different places. They had these different variants of stories. And that's also very interesting. And shows also maybe what stories were considered to be very popular were also told in many places, good stories. But the art tradition is of course very important. And with the folk legends, the collection of them starts in the 19th century when Jonathan and Magnuskimson start collecting stories in Iceland. They're often seen as the pioneers of doing that. But then many, many followed and were collecting stories in specific areas. It's also of course part of Iceland's independency that was on its way. We became independent from Denmark in 1944, which is very interesting as well because when people were collecting stories in specific places, they would still call it Icelandic folk legends and stories to try to make it like it's a national thing as well. So of course it's all tradition for a lot for the longest time. And I mean it's. It is very interesting because then you never know what you don't have because we only have what is written down. Some stories probably weren't.
- [28:46]
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- [29:15]
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- [30:45]
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- [32:14]
Matt Lewis
Listen, I think I've made you think about theory long enough can we talk about some actual stories? Can we get to it? Okay, you're gonna have to pardon my absolutely atrocious Icelandic pronunciation throughout this, but can we start? I guess a great place to start is sort of with, oh, here it comes. Is that right?
- [32:37]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
It was very well done, I would say.
- [32:39]
Matt Lewis
Yes,
- [32:42]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
perfect. Yes.
- [32:45]
Matt Lewis
So can you tell us who he is and how he came to feature so incredibly prominently in Icelandic legends?
- [32:54]
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- [32:55]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
So Guimd Goli, he was a priest and a bishop. He is said to have been born in 1161 and then died in 1237. He was a bishop in Holar, which is in the north of Iceland. And he translates to guimtur the good. And he had a very prominent word of being very good, as in very generous, very helpful for regular people of Iceland, I will say, because he was very debated as well. But good or goldy also references to him being kind of a holy, in a way. He performed miracles. And he. According to folk legends, he would also sometimes encounter the supernatural. And he would go around and he would. He would travel very far around Iceland. He would go to many different places and he would bless all sorts of things. So he would go around and he would be blessing rocks and blessing hills and blessing water very often today we have a lot of stories of water fountains that he is said to have blessed and that gives the water some sort of a healing ability. Or there is one in stunted area where I grew up, and that one you're supposed to not drink, but get your eyes into the water. Get some water into your eyes because it's supposed to be very good for your eyesight. And this because a nickname for people in Iceland that is called. That are named is often gventr. So these waters are often called Gventarljgarf or gventarbrunn, referencing Gumter the Good. You're supposed to have blessed them. There are also stories of him getting rid of evil supernatural beings, sending them to different places. And there is this one story where he was supposed to be blessing a big rock when he heard a voice coming from inside the rocks, telling him that there had to be some place for evil. So he decided that he would leave the evil there so they would have some place to retreat to. He had banished them from all the other places.
- [35:08]
Matt Lewis
I love that because it's like, you can't be entirely holy. There still has to be somewhere where for these guys to go, oh, that's quite sweet, actually. So you talk a little bit in the book about a story that's called the Sorcerers in the Westman Islands. And this is an interesting one for people like me who are very interested in the Black Death because there's some kind of plague that happens in it that they're calling the Black Death. Going through Iceland, it's absolutely raging. And this is useful to us, right, because you could maybe date the legend a little bit as a result. Can you tell us a little bit about it?
- [35:47]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
Yeah. So the story or the legend, it's in the legends collection of Fiona, the first one that was collecting stories here. And it tells of a group of sorcerers that go to the Westman Islands in Iceland to hide from the plague, from Black Death. And then they hear that it has been going all around and killed a lot of people. And they decide to send one of them, one of their own, to the mainland to see what's happening, if someone's still alive and so on. But he happens to promise that he'll be back before Christmas. The man, the sorcerer, goes to the mainland. There, he meets a girl, and she kind of entices him to stay longer. And when Christmas is almost there, he is like, I have to get back. They will be very angry if I'm not back. And she tells him, no, you have to stay. Don't leave, blah, blah, blah. And he decides to stay. And of course, as he had known, the other sorcerers get very mad at me and they send him a ghost or something. And when the ghost is there, then they are kind of the girl, which is very smart, she meets the ghost and makes him perform all sorts of tricks. Be as big as you can, be as small as you can. And of course, he then makes himself very tiny, turns himself also into a fly, and she then dares him to fly inside a bone that she has in her hand. And the ghost does that, and she closes the bone, so he's stuck inside and traps the ghost, of course. But I mean, this is a story about this plague. And there are other stories surrounding the plague and the Black Death. Those are stories that tell of a traveling in the form of an old lady knocking on doors of farms and trying to get in and similar stories. I mean, we do not have a lot of information about this in the Icelandic history, which hadn't started doing, like, population counts at this time, but it's estimated to have taken a big part of the population as well. And that's how it is remembered. What is interesting, of course, that when we are looking at it through those legends, they were collected in the 19th century, as I've said. And so they kind of reflect this view of how people are looking back on it. So we can't never know if this is stories that have been traveling from this period because it's very hard to tell how exactly how old stories are and for how long they've been in oral tradition before they're written down. But they do trace some memory of this being a horrific time and this impact having a big impact on Iceland and how people are kind of reflecting on it these years after. How it, how it appears to them then in a way which is as this horrible disease that laid people in ruins and how people were afraid of it as well.
- [38:50]
Matt Lewis
I would say yeah, it's really interesting because I suppose from my standpoint as a historian, if anyone is going around saying the words Black Death, then I'm like, ah, that's kind of modern, right? Because no one calls it that at the time, but it makes perfect sense to me that you would tell these stories and then somewhere along the line when people say, oh yeah, you're telling a story about the plague, it must be the Black Death, we embellish it out. Right. So it's not right to say it
- [39:17]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
isn't being told at the time.
- [39:20]
Matt Lewis
But I. It's also not right to expect that things are going to ossify and stay exactly where you want them to. Right?
- [39:27]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
Yeah, yeah, definitely. As I was saying before, when people move things closer to farms, they also move things closer in time and they try to make it so that people will understand the story and have like a reference point to it. And as I said, yeah, it's very hard to say if the story was told as well during that time in a different way or not. We just don't know that. But we know that in the 19th century then people are telling it in this way and that they are attributing it to this idea that it was the Black Death that has come of phenomenon in that time period when they are telling the story and yeah, and does reflect how people are, as I said, looking back at it, how they imagine it might have been, how what they think about it at the time when they are telling the story.
- [40:17]
Matt Lewis
There's another pretty good medieval figure that comes up in a lot of the stories that you're telling, and that's Samander De Frodi. Can you tell us a little bit about him and how he comes up in the folktales?
- [40:27]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
Yes. So Simon Terfrodi, which would be translated as Simon the Learned or Simon the Wise or something like that. He was around from the year 1056 until 1133. And he appears in the folk legends as a bit of a sorcerer, really. He was. He had gone abroad to study, according to the stories. And he had been. Well, according to the legends, he had been in a very unusual school called the Black School or Svarteskole, which is actually run by the devil himself. And there it's. It's underground. Everything is dark there. But they're writing on papers that shine back at them in red lights. And it's a very interesting stories that are told about Samuel Frode. But the thing is that. And the stories also say that the devil gets to own the person that leaves the school last every year. And Simon Dunwood is a bit. He is a heroic figure in these stories. He is a sorcerer, he's also a priest. And he is a hero a little bit in the stories. So one day he and his friends are leaving school for the last time and nobody wants to be the last to leave because he will belong to the devil. Simon says, I will be last. You can go before me. But when he is leaving the door and the devil tells him like, no, you can't leave. I'm taking you. Simon points to behind him and says, no, see, there's one more. And points to his shadow. And then he escapes out the door and the devil takes his shadow. And Simon is said to have remained without shadow ever since. But there are a lot of stories where he is kind of fooling the devil and he makes the devil turn himself into a seal and then carry Saemandur on his back all the way back to Iceland, where he is going to get the best to be the church, be a priest at a very good church. It was kind of in the need of a priest. And tells him that if the devil manages to get him all across the ocean without Samdur getting wet, he can also keep his soul. But when they're almost there, he takes his very big book and hits the devil on its head. So it goes down into the water. And of course Simtr gets wet, but then gets the church and is saved by. From the devil once again. So he is a very interesting, very interesting figure. He's very prominent in these stories. And in front of the University of Iceland there is this big statue sculpture of Simon riding the seal on his way tricking the devil. So he is a very prominent figure in these stories and he is still quite, quite known. And these stories about him are told quite a lot and as I say, remembered through his sculpture in front of the university, for example, of him being the learned man. That, of course, relates to education today as well.
- [43:48]
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- [45:35]
Matt Lewis
Obviously, you know, I listen, I too wish to go to double university. That's fine. A normal. But this is interesting because this is the second priest that we've had.
- [45:46]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
Yeah.
- [45:47]
Dr. Horton Announcer
Prop up.
- [45:48]
Matt Lewis
And you know, it's just interesting here that we have these religious figures that are doing these kind of almost magical things. You know, they're sort of rubbing along the line, I think, of what we would call sorcery now. I mean, do you think that that says something about the way people at the time sort of relate to the concept of religion and authority? You know, is it the idea that, you know, if you're learning something, if you're, if you're literate, if you've got all of these ideas, then that's almost like doing magic.
- [46:21]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
Yeah, I mean, definitely. I think, I think there are many reasons. They, of course, yeah, they had an authority in Icelandic society. They were, I mean, priests were also very well known in Icelandic society. They're the celebrities of their time. In a way. Everybody will know them. So if you're telling a story about a priest, that's someone that everybody Will be like, ah, okay, yeah. Oh, they did that.
- [46:43]
Dr. Horton Announcer
Wow.
- [46:45]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
Strange, mysterious. So, I mean, I think that's one of the reasons why these stories will attach to these priests. Another one is, of course, that they had authority and they had the literacy and they were able to understand some Latin at least they have went abroad, which was very foreign to many people, that they had actually left and then came back with some knowledge and were able to read this language that nobody else understood. I mean, so they become very mysterious figures as well. And in these folk legends, they become very prominent as being. Many of the sorcerers in Icelandic folk legends are also priests. But it is also a little bit interesting that when Jonathan, the first collector, is collecting stories, he gets most of his stories from priests all around Iceland, because they were able to go out and talk to farmers and they knew everybody they knew, I should go and talk to this person and this. They know a lot of stories. I'll talk to them. They had the time to do it. They could go around and talk to people and write and they could write them down. And Dion Agneson had also studied abroad, so he had a net of connection to priests all around Iceland that could collect stories and send them to him. So priests in Icelandic, Latins, because although they are like related to sorcery, usually, I would say they are portrayed in a rather positive light in the stories. They are heroes, they are tricking the evil trolls, the evil. The devil. I mean, the devil himself, of course, the most evil of them all. But so they are positive figures, although that they are sorcerers in many cases, not all, of course, but I think that is everything plays a part in this. And the fact that there are a lot of priests collecting stories also plays a part in this. Of course.
- [48:50]
Matt Lewis
Yeah. I mean, I would say so, because if a priest comes and says, hey, do you know any stories? They're going to say, oh, you'll love this one, but it takes a battle for you, of course.
- [49:00]
Yeah.
- [49:00]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
Good to be in good graces with your priest as well at the time. So.
- [49:05]
Matt Lewis
Well, it also makes sense to me that we have these kind of really heroic saints because we also, you know, when Iceland is settled, the Christianization hasn't taken over entirely. Right. You know, among. Among the people who settled. So can you tell us a little bit about that process and. And what it sort of meant for society in Iceland?
- [49:27]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
Yeah. So Icelanders, according to Isla Gabok, the Book of Icelanders, people were of different religions when they came here. Some were of the old Norse religion, some were not religious Some were Christian. So it was a very mixed group as well when people first settled and came here. But in the year 1000, it is decided of parliament that Icelanders should become Christian. But when we take up Christianity, there are three exceptions that we kind of employ with it. The first one is that Icelanders can still eat horse meat. Icelanders can still pray to the heathen gods in secrecy. And so it was a bit of an easy transition. We're still allowed to do what you had been doing. Just don't tell anyone.
- [50:11]
Dr. Horton Announcer
Okay?
- [50:12]
Matt Lewis
All right, Fair.
- [50:13]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
And then the third one was that Icelanders were still allowed to leave children out to die of exposure according to the old laws, which is of course very horrific and became illegal shortly afterwards. But. But we do have quite a lot of stories that relate to this practice of leaving children out to die of exposure. And when Icelanders became Lutheran in the 16th century, around 500, where it's often said to have been at 550, when Jonarson was beheaded and which was a. Was a bishop, then a lot of relations, romantic relations, became illegal. So you weren't allowed to have children outside of marriage. You weren't allowed to have children with people that were related not to you, just if they were related, you were also not allowed to have children with them and so on, so forth. And then some people in some cases would resort to leaving children out to die of exposure to try to save themselves from the harsh poem it's meant to. That came with the crimes that they had committed according to these laws. So, yeah, so it was like. As always, it is a longer process. I pinpoint this moment in time, the year 1550. But of course, there has been ongoing discussions for some time before that, although those are the points that we have chosen to sink. Yes, this is when this happened.
- [51:49]
Matt Lewis
You include some stories in the book that they really kind of go around this fulcrum of that, you know, the desire to cover up these relationships, where that ends up overlapping with the three, count them, three different types of ghosts. Could you tell us the story about Mothermine and the pen?
- [52:12]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
Yes. So that's a story that tells of a type of ghost that we call Utburdr, which just means a child that has been left out to die in Paris. And it's a story of a woman, she's a worker, and she becomes pregnant with a man that she was not allowed to be with. He was married, if I remember correctly. But anyways, as a result, she decides when she has given birth to the child to leave it outside to Die and tell no one that this has happened. A couple of weeks later, there's going to be a big dance in her area and she really wants to go to the dance. And well, when it draws closer, she's a little bit upset because she doesn't have anything nice to wear for the dance. And she is telling another worker about this when they are outside milking the sheep or they're in a pen, they're milking the sheep there, which was done in these years. And just as he has told the other woman, like, oh, no, I have this dance upcoming and I have nothing to where the ghost of the child that she had left outside to die appears on the wall in front of her. And the ghost says rhyme in Icelandic, it's like this, Which translates as mother mine in the pen. Don't you worry, I can lend you the cloth that you had wrapped me in to dance in it. And then the ghost child takes the cloth, let's see it wrapped around it, and hits her in her face with it. So she loses her mind. And in some other variants, she loses her eyesight as a result of this happening. But I mean, I find this story is very fascinating. One of the things that strikes me the most, because when I did my PhD in folklore, I was looking at gendered power relations and femininity and these stories. And it is quite apparent in these stories that childbirth is solely the responsibility of women. Those children that have been left out to die apparently don't have fathers because they only come back to hunt their mothers and to get revenge on their mothers for the crimes that they have committed against them, according to the stories. So I always find these stories very interesting. And in this story in particular, you can also see elements of don't worry about superficial things like dresses and dances when you should be focusing on something else. And so, I mean, they have these messages and they are warning stories intended for women, like, you shouldn't do this or else this will happen this. And I just think they are layered with so many, many different things. We also have these ideas of regret when they come back. And the result is often that the mothers lose their minds. In other variants, when ghosts of exposed children come back, the main punishment is that the women or the mother stop seeing the son and they don't see the son. So then they're also trapped in darkness for many years after to pay for their crimes. And I mean, I think it kind of the losing of the sun to me represents a little bit of or has can be seen as depression in A way as well. So, I mean, we have. We have these stories that. That I find very fascinating. They have all these threads of what they are telling us about these events and these things that women shouldn't do.
- [55:49]
Matt Lewis
Oh, gosh, this is like such a typical story about a woman too. They're like, oh, you know how women are. All they care about is dresses and dances and probably also they're, you know, a slut who are killing their babies or just like, what?
- [56:01]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
Exactly.
- [56:01]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, I'm not sure that follows. Okay, fine. It is also really interesting because, like, we're definitely seeing here this drawing of this line between older Icelandic, you know, traditions, like, you know, the exposure and the idea that, no, we're in this new era, right? We're in this new era. You can't do that. That is very bad. And I guess for me, that that is part and parcel with what I expect to see for women in the early modern period. You know, like, you come into these much more stringent restrictions about what women can and cannot do.
- [56:37]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
Yeah, definitely. And here it's of course, the idea that they can't get exposed of children, but it's also the idea that they shouldn't have sex in the first place.
- [56:46]
Matt Lewis
I mean, yeah, obviously, duh.
- [56:48]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
Yes.
- [56:50]
Matt Lewis
But that is like one of the big differences also, I think, in terms of expectations of women in the medieval period and women in the early modern period is that women in the medieval period, everyone's like, I bet you're having sex. And they're like, yeah, I am. They're like, no. Tsk, tsk. In the early modern period, there's just this big crackdown. Like, you better not do it. You'll get haunted. You're gonna get haunted if you do it.
- [57:09]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
- [57:12]
Matt Lewis
One of the other things I think is really interesting in the book is that you have a lot of these creatures, you know, especially the Norsera ones, that they kind of crop up and it seems like they're sort of explaining natural phenomena. So, you know, when you have a weird rock formation, right. Oh, that's a troll that got caught in the sun, you know, or when your livestock goes missing or when somebody drowns, you know, do you think that this is kind of like an explanatory instinct that we see come out also in later folk tales? Or do you think that by the time we're in the 19th century and, you know, we're all very sciency.
- [57:51]
Grow Therapy Announcer
Right.
- [57:51]
Matt Lewis
And we know that that exists. Do you think that these stories kind of shift a little bit in order to Reflect that.
- [57:58]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
I think many of the stories are a little bit explanatory and they explain, as you said, like this rocks look very strange. This is a troll that has been turned into stone. Because we always. Then the unimaginable happens. Something horrible happens, something like. With those places that are like enchanted spots or cursed places, you can't ruin them, otherwise something bad will happen. And something horrible happens on your farm and you're like, how did. Why? And then you need a reason for it as well. And then that is something that you can. So it doesn't only explain, I think, natural phenomena, but it also explains to us what we just can't understand because we also know that we are always encountering things that we maybe don't fully understand. And we want to understand, we want to seek explanations for it as well. So I think it's explanatory in both of these ways. And just because I was just talking about the children and the ghosts of children, we do have appears as well. A lot of in the place name stories you will have places that are called Crying Creek or something where you will hear the cries of the children when you're walking there after dark, that have been left out there to die of exposure, etc. So they do explain the landscape a little bit and they do work a little bit as a map because they also tell you where to go and where not to go, what to do and what not to do. So I think they explain to us in many different ways, both in terms of landscape, how this came into being, why this strange rock is standing here by itself. But also it carries these messages of what you, if you do something good, you are rewarded in a story, and if you do something bad, you're punished. But I think the case with all stories though is that they have such diverse meanings of ways. So some of them are explanatory, some of them are funny, some of them are scary. Some of them are people also trying to make senses of their own experiences that they don't quite understand. So I think there are so many different elements to them and so many different ways to interpret them in a way which is also what I find very fascinating. But in Iceland, the stories are very tied to the landscape, I would say.
- [60:30]
Matt Lewis
Are people in Iceland still this interested in folktales? Like, do they still have the same kind of pull on people in the present day? Or is it just nerds like you and me?
- [60:42]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
I was gonna say I have surrounded me with nerds that are very interesting. Might be hard to tell, but I mean, they are part of curriculums as well. They are taught in school, both as part of, like, learning about Icelandic society, but also about Icelandic literature and just studying the language. They're very often incorporated into that. So in most places in Iceland, I think you will encounter folk legends when you're studying, when you're in school, when you're a child. They're also part of the entertainment. I mean, we have this huge series of radio shows for children that focus only on folk legends. And it's inspiration. A lot of writers in Iceland, filmmakers, they draw inspiration from the folk legend material. So it is here and there. I would say we are being reminded of it. And when we travel, museums do a great job as well, mediating this part of our heritage. When you're traveling, you will have these signs with these stories because they are interesting. A lot of them are interesting, and they are fun. And a rock is way cooler when it used to be a troll than if it's just simply a rock. So, I mean, it has become a big part in the tourism industry as well. Not only for people that are coming from abroad and visiting, but also just when Icelanders are traveling around their own country. So I think it's definitely still a part of our environment if we look at them differently. Definitely. I would think so. But I think also it's important to think that in the past, I don't think either Everybody in the 19th century believed all the stories. I also think that they just appreciated the entertainment value of them and that they thought them funny and that they thought they were scary, just as we would watch a horror movie today, I think to get a little bit frightened, but also being very safe in our home. So there have been changes, but in the same way, I think we have to be careful not to look at it as if in the past everybody believed all the stories and that there is a recent development that we look at them as stories, which is of course, what they are as well.
- [62:56]
Matt Lewis
This has been such an incredibly fun time to speak with you because I love a spooky story. I love to hear that a rock is a troll. These are things that I too want to hear. Just like, I presume, bitty medieval icelanders in the 19th century and today. So, Dagornosk, thank you so so much for coming to talk to about this.
- [63:18]
Dr. Dagrun Oskjohnsdottir
Thank you for having me.
- [63:21]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Thank you so much to Dagronosk once again for joining me. And thank you for listening to Gone Medieval from History Hit.
- [63:28]
Matt Lewis
If you were interested in some of
- [63:30]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
the topics we mentioned in this episode, you might want to go back and check out our older episodes on the Viking Sagas and medieval Iceland. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award winning original TV documentaries, including my recent documentary with Matt on the rise of Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine and ad free podcasts by signing up@historyhit.com subscription. You can follow Gone Medieval on Spotify
- [63:59]
Matt Lewis
where you can leave us comments and suggestions or wherever you get your podcasts and tell all your friends and family
- [64:04]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
that you've gone medieval.
- [64:07]
Matt Lewis
Until next time.
- [64:30]
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