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- [00:01]
Matt Lewis
Hello, I'm Matt Lewis.
- [00:03]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And I'm Dr. Eleanor Jaenega and we're.
- [00:05]
Matt Lewis
Just popping up here to tell you some insider info.
- [00:08]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
If you would like to listen to Gone Medieval ad free and get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to.
- [00:14]
Matt Lewis
History Hit with the History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, such as my new.
- [00:21]
Hiroko Yoda
Series on everyone's favorite conquerors, the Normans.
- [00:25]
Matt Lewis
Or my recent exploration of the castles that made Britain.
- [00:29]
Holly Fry
There's a new release to enjoy every week.
- [00:32]
Matt Lewis
Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe or find the link in the show Notes for this episode.
- [00:49]
Holly Fry
Our Skin Tells a Story Join me, Holly Fry, and a slate of incredible guests as we are all inspired by their journeys with psoriasis. Along with these uplifting and candid personal histories, we take a step back into the bizarre and occasionally poisonous history of our skin and how we take care of it. Whether you're looking for inspiration on your own skincare journey or are curious about the sometimes strange history of how we treat our skin, you'll find genuine, empathetic, transformative conversations here on our skin. Listen to Our skin on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:34]
Matt Lewis
Hey, you can keep a secret, right? You might know me as Matt Lewis, presenter of Gone Medieval, but you've been tricked. I am in fact, a ninja, a shinobi, a secret agent from another podcast, Echoes of History, which dives into the history behind the worlds depicted in the Assassin's Creed games. Last week, Ubisoft launched their most recent game, Assassin's Creed Shadows, which is set in feudal Japan, and it throws players into the fierce worlds of the samurai and the shinobi. Yes, ninjas. Over on Echoes of History, we've been exploring this fascinating world in some real depth. One of the brilliant and surprising conversations I had was about Hattori Hanzo, one of the most feared samurai of the Sengoku era, who was also a shinobi. I was thinking, who else love a legendary historical character? Naturally, I thought of you guys, those who have gone medieval. So I adopted the shinobi tactics I've learned and infiltrated the Gone Medieval feed to insert the story of a man known as the Demon Hanzo. So before they catch me, here's just a taste of the riches Echoes of History has to offer. I hope you enjoy it, and if you do, you can listen to the back catalogue covering a variety of games, periods and places and subscribe so you never miss an episode. Right, I'm off. Welcome to Echoes of History, the place to explore the rich stories from the past that bring the world of Assassin's Creed to life. I'm Matt Lewis. For the next five weeks, join us as we return to the heart of medieval Japan, to the late Azuchi Momayama period, the tumultuous setting for the eagerly awaited Assassin's Creed Shadows. With only weeks to go before the release of the game in February, we'll be delving into the era's intricate landscape of power and ambition, myths and legends, preparing you as a player to experience it all for yourself in Assassin's Shadows. Later this week, I'll begin a special series of episodes that take a close look at samurai and shinobi. The weapons they wielded, the battle tactics they used, their politics and culture. No stone will remain unturned as we discover just what separated and united the two iconic warrior classes of Japan. But first, what better way to dive back into the era of samurai and shinobi shadow warriors than to meet the embodiment of both cultures, the legendary Hattori Hanzo. He established himself during the Warring States period as a loyal retainer of Tokugawa Ieyasu, playing a vital role in Ieyasu's rise to become the first Shogun of a united Japan in 1603. How did Hattori Hanzo reach such legendary status, earning the nickname the Demon Hanzo? How were his loyalties tested as both samurai and shinobi? And what does his story tell us about the late Sengoku period? Joining me to answer these questions and more are Hiroko Yoda and Matt Alt, authors of Ninja True Tales of Assassins, Samurai and Outlaws. You can keep up to date with both their works on their blogs, Japan Happiness and Pure Invention. You can find the links to both in the descriptions for this episode. Hello, Hiroko and hello, Matt. Welcome to Echoes of History.
- [05:15]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Thank you.
- [05:16]
Hiroko Yoda
Thanks for having us.
- [05:17]
Matt Lewis
It's great to have you here. I'm really looking forward to this because this is a name that I know, but I know nothing else about this, so I'm really looking forward to finding out more. So we're going to be talking about Hattori Hanzo, I wonder if you could just start off by setting the scene for us in terms of where and when is he born.
- [05:35]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Okay, okay. Before we're gonna talk about Hattori Hanzo. Hattori Hanzo is not a personal name. It sounds like a personal's name, but it is actually a job title. So when you talk so that if you talk about. Let's talk about Hattori Hanzo the next next question would be which one? And then Hattori Hanzo, because it's a title. And so the D HA Hatori Hanzo that all of us know, it's Hatori Hanzo II and I'd like to talk about Hatori Hanzo II here and then. Anyway, so he, Hattori Hanzo, his name is. Personal name is Masanari and he was born in 1542 in the province of Mikawa.
- [06:22]
Matt Lewis
So Iga province is something that we have come across in terms of shinobi before the Tensho IGA War and things like that. So presumably if he's born in 1542, he's in the midst of some of those events that are going to crop up during his life too.
- [06:37]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Exactly. Because IGA is the village locates in the mountain valley and it's hidden. And that's where the ninja technique was florist. The time period is Warring States era, so there's battles everywhere. And then so the people who live in the EA are the professionals of the asymmetrical warfare and using surprise attack guerrilla warfare. And so that's the background where the he was born in the background where.
- [07:13]
Hiroko Yoda
He was from the. The Sengoku Jidai. The era of warring states that Hiroko is talking about is a period that lasted about 100 years in Japan. And it was a time of great social unrest, political strife, military strife. It is a sort of romantic period, I think, for a lot of Japanese looking back, almost fantastical, which is why you see so many Jidaigeki, which is the name for period dramas set there, are often set there. So when you're thinking of samurai and when you're thinking of ninja, when you're thinking of castles and warlords and Game of Thrones style vying for power and unifying the country, that's all the era of warring states. But it probably wasn't that great of a time period for the people actually living through it. So, you know.
- [08:01]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, but also in contrast, probably a great place to set a video game like Assassin's Creed Shadows. You know, you get to go and play in the midst of all of this and see it all going on without the actual danger. What do we know about Hattori Hanzo II's father and his family? What kind of rank were they? What background were they from?
- [08:20]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
So he was actually higher ranking, the strategist, I guess, serving for Tokugawa clan. That. That. Well, at that time, the Tokugawa's name was Matsudaira. Strictly speaking, they. They changed the name later on. But anyway, he was already serving. So when Hattori Hanzo Masanari II was born, the father was serving for the Matsudaira clan later on become Tokugawa clan.
- [08:51]
Matt Lewis
And does that put him in conflict with, you know, Oda Nobunaga is obviously a figure who is going to dominate this period. Is he aligned to Nobunaga's faction or is he opposed to Nobunaga's faction?
- [09:03]
Hiroko Yoda
At that point, the Matsudaira's. Well, Tokugawa was an ally. Tokugawa became an ally of Nobunaga and was up at the end of Nobunaga's life to the point where when Nobunaga was assassinated at the Honnno Ji incident, Tokugawa had to go on the run because he was worried that the same factions that had targeted Nobunaga would be targeting him as well. There's a lot of shifting factions and things happening going on. It really was a game of thrones. It was a dog eat dog world. And there was not a kind of absolute loyalty. There was a lot of shifting alliances and things going on. Masanari the son was absolutely aligned with the Tokugawa side leading up to that. I don't think we're 100% clear on how the history played out there. But by the time Masunari came of age and quite young, because some of his first battles are in his teens, he was very much allied with the Tokugawa side.
- [10:03]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Makes sense. Because even though there's not much historical story when he was a kid, but still it's easy to understand or it's easy to imagine that because his father was serving Tokugawa clan, so he was actually fighting along with the father. But the turning point for Hattori Hanzo II for him was the battle when he involved at the age of 16. So he actually fought so well in terms of night surprise attack that Tokugawa Ieyasu the warlord, he saw how well the hatori Hanzo Masanari, 16 year teenager, fought well and he recognized that and he gave spear and the sake cup. The Hatori Hanzo? Yeah, it's like, okay, what's the deal with the sake cup? Right? But the sake cup in that era, it's actually symbolic action. It's tying up with a boss and henchman relationship. So that was his turning point to becoming Tokuga Yeyasu's official.
- [11:15]
Hiroko Yoda
Like a vassal followers. A vassal, I guess you'd say.
- [11:17]
Kate Lister
Yes.
- [11:18]
Matt Lewis
It's almost like he's gone and watched all of the young men fighting. And he's got in the early in the draft and thought, I'm having that one I'll give him the spear and I'll get him, I'll get him into my side because this guy is clearly very good at what he's doing.
- [11:31]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
So that's his. That. So the spear was his weapon. The interesting thing is that still the spear exists today. And there's. Yes, there is.
- [11:41]
Hiroko Yoda
We've seen it.
- [11:42]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
We've seen it. It's in the temple in Tokyo. In Tokyo. And it's big, long and so you can, you can easily imagine how strong, how strong he was.
- [11:57]
Matt Lewis
He must have been at 16 as well. I mean, that's impressive. I love the idea of being able to go and see Hattori Hanzo's spear. That's very cool.
- [12:04]
Hiroko Yoda
Yes. And you can see it, it's on display at this temple. But you know, 16, it's like a. We think of that as like a child soldier now practically. But that just goes to show you how harsh this era was. There aren't any 16 year olds in Japan picking up any spears or swords now that aren't on a video game screen. So times have changed mightily in the 500 years.
- [12:24]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Basically adulthood starts. Started very early.
- [12:27]
Hiroko Yoda
Yeah, with puberty. Basically you were an adult and you were thrown into it. And it's obvious that Hattori Hanzo must have been trained presumably by his father and his family in the martial arts from a very young age because not only was he participating in this battle at 16, he was excelling at the battle like he was. He was racking up, you know, victories for himself that got him noticed by a much older and more experienced warlord.
- [12:55]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
So that's the. Another thing, the interesting about the Hattori Hanzo II is that because he was a leader. He was. He led the foot soldiers from IGA town. A lot of people think that Hattori Hanzo was. Was ninja, but. But he was more like a commander rather than the ninja in. Yeah, Shinobi in Spine Work. He's more like the commander. Yeah, Strategist.
- [13:23]
Hiroko Yoda
A military strategist. A soldier, a talented one. But he's, he's probably not somebody who's stalking around in like black, you know, unless he needed to do it very specifically for some very specific moment. He's commanding troops, which is why he's getting recognized.
- [13:39]
Matt Lewis
Right. So he's more like the ninja boss fight, maybe.
- [13:43]
Hiroko Yoda
Yeah, well, you know, it calls into question like what is a ninja? Right. And what was Hanzo doing at this time? Now it's true that he comes from iga, but it's not a monolithic place. There were many different Families there who were operating kind of under an umbrella of this kind of Igashu name. And there was a lot of conflict among them, and they went about things in different ways. So whether Hattori Hanzo was a shinobi, as we think of one now in the modern era, or whether he was more like a kind of, for lack of a better word, a super samurai, somebody who is just very talented with the sword, somebody who understands tactics, somebody who naturally understands the element of surprise, you know, versus what? The kind of the modern conception of a ninja throwing ninja stars and using all sorts of, you know, exotic weaponry and, like, taking the enemy out before they even notice what's happening. He was leading actual battles, you know, of the sort that were unfolding quite frequently at that time. And he might have used unorthodox tactics, but he probably, again, wasn't dressed, you know, with the mask and the.
- [14:53]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
You know, the black costume actually didn't exist.
- [14:56]
Hiroko Yoda
Yeah, that black costume.
- [14:57]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Okay. It's a woodblock print.
- [14:59]
Hiroko Yoda
The black costume actually is a really interesting thing, and we're getting a little bit off topic here, but it's important because the reason that we know and love ninja today all over the world, when you think about it, it's a little odd because the Japanese didn't invent asymmetrical warfare. They didn't invent guerrilla warfare. They didn't invent assassinations. Certainly that word comes from the Arab world. And there's a long. The Art of War talks about things like this. Sun Tzu's a book set in China. The Japanese didn't invent any of this stuff. Yet we associate sneaky behavior and stealth tactics with the ninja. The reason for that is because in the Edo period, when things had really calmed down and settled down, ninja were some of the first historical characters that became fictional characters. And there's a whole lot of them in the very early part of the. Or the middle part of the Edo period, when the publishing industry was taking off. And that's where you get Jiraiya, the famed ninja who you see in the Naruto series. And it's where you start to see the black clothing. It's actually Hokusai of the wave, the Great Wave. He had a book called Hokusai Manga, which sounds like manga, like modern manga, but he meant it just almost like clip art. And there's a drawing, a woodblock print of a ninja crawling up a rope dressed in black clothing. And that's believed to be the very first depiction of a ninja. That way before that, they just you know, in. In the illustrated books and things, they look just like samurai. Very opulent looking samurai.
- [16:30]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Yeah. And then before that, just to rewind that clock, you know, back to the war era of warring states. Warring states era. Basically where the ninja came from. How the ninja established was that they were farmers. And then when the Sangok era started the. Everything was just basically a mess. The dog eats what dog world. And then so farmers decided to arming themselves. And that's basically the origin of ninja. And then they use everything in a daily life. You know the.
- [17:05]
Hiroko Yoda
The rake or a hoe or whatever.
- [17:08]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Whatever or hot water rocks. It doesn't matter. It just. That's a girl good gorilla attack techniques. And then so. So the one. So when you talk about ninja, it's. It's not. Not just the, you know, the warfare techniques but also the important thing is like the spy network, you know, the whispering, information gathering and stuff like that. In order to do that, you cannot wear like I mean black ninja, whatever. You know, the costume you stick out. So the common clothes was just basically being farmer or being. Just to come and just, you know, come and whatever and then to mingle in and then just basically all ears and get information. So when. So when we were writing the ninja attack, one of the things I learned and I found really very interesting was that those people are business people. So whoever bids biggest, they serve. And then you know, when the other side of the warlord say hey, you know, I can pay you more. You know, why don't you. You know, why don't you use as it works for me. They basically just turn, you know, turn back. It just. It just. That's how it went back then.
- [18:20]
Hiroko Yoda
Private military.
- [18:21]
Matt Lewis
Because if you. Mercenary force. Yeah, exactly.
- [18:23]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
If you lose, you die. But if you win, you gain power along with the warlords. And that was the time era. And then anyway the hatry Hanzo II was. It was entire life. He served faithfully to Tokugawa Ieyasu later on who be he became shogun and then united Japan. And then that's, you know, in a p. You know, the peace came and then the story goes on.
- [18:49]
Hiroko Yoda
Yeah, yeah.
- [18:51]
Matt Lewis
I mean from doing some of these episodes, I very much get the impression that sort of samurai is more like a rank or a position. Shinobi is more like a way of fighting. So you can blur the lines and you can be a samurai who employs shinobi tactics. So the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. They're slightly different terms really.
- [19:10]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Yes, it's just basically hired in an employee, in an employer I guess.
- [19:16]
Hiroko Yoda
Well, it's also, it's really tempting to see it in terms of categories because so much of the way that we interact with ninja culture is like through things like games or shinobi or ninja or assassins or a class. You know, they're like a character class. But of course, like you're saying, Matt, in real life the lines are a little bit blurred. You can be an officer and a gentleman. Do you know what I mean? You can be both. And samurai is actually, you know, Westerners think of samurai as warriors and it was a warrior class, but samurai is actually a caste in ancient Japan. They're the aristocracy, they're the nobility. And although you were supposed to study the arts of war to be a well rounded samurai, along with like fine arts and poetry and things like that, there were plenty of samurai who probably couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag or a cloth sack at the time. And there were probably plenty of farmers out there who could really kick some ass on the battlefield.
- [20:15]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
But the warriors actually started as a farmers too because before that, before the Sengok era started, the aristocrats in the royal palace in Kyoto, they were the ones who had the power. But then, you know, but still there is a, there is a power struggling going on, Game of Thrones thing going on and then the corruption going on and then the society and that Japan got really unstable and then farmers started arming themselves. That I, you know, that I said before. And the. Some went to become the ninja, some become a warrior samurai.
- [20:51]
Matt Lewis
And so Hattori Hanzo II, we've sort of left him at the age of 16. He's caught the eye of Tokugawa Ieyasu and entered his service. Does he continue to impress Tokugawa Ieyasu? Does he continue to rise in service?
- [21:05]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Yes. So there are three major crises in Tokugawa, Tokugawa Iya's life. And then Hattori Hanzo actually played a major role in there. And then one was Iko Ikki that you brought up the questions, Iko Uprising. And then he fought well. But there's not much information in there about the Hatori Hanzo.
- [21:34]
Hiroko Yoda
There's a historical moment called the Iko.
- [21:36]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Iki, which is 1563.
- [21:37]
Hiroko Yoda
1563, it's the Iko uprising. That's what Iki means. It's kind of an uprising or you know, a battle of some kind. And the Iko were a group of warriors who were associated with a Buddhist sect that the Jodo, Pure Land Buddhist sect. And it was kind of a holy army in a lot of ways. And the Iko are actually just one of many groups at this time who were not affiliated so much with a warlord or a region, but with a temple. And there's a lot of examples of this. There's another one called the Negoro Gumi. And there's many, many cases of this. And this is where the concept of the warrior monk comes from out of that era.
- [22:20]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
So what happened was that Tokuga Ieyasu was trying to unify first the Mikawa area, the province. And then those monks, the Iko school of Buddhism said no to it. And then the problem was that many of the Tokugawa ess's followers, warlords, were actually affiliated with that school. So to meet those guys actually left Tokugayasu. So it was just like. It was just. It was. It was a crisis for, you know, to have act to keep that. Keep the power or authority for Tokuga Ieyasu. And then that there's a lot of battles going on. And then finally Togugai Ieyasu basically, it was just basically stame it. And then, you know, he couldn't take it anymore. And so that's. So that was that. So that incident actually taught Tokuganesu a lot. How complicated and how difficult the religions.
- [23:27]
Hiroko Yoda
Could be to deal with.
- [23:28]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
To deal with. Anyway, that there were not much information about the Hattori Hanzo there. But because we know that the many, many rulers left Toguga Yasu. And then. So. But he, Masanari, the Hatori Hanzo didn't.
- [23:47]
Hiroko Yoda
He stayed.
- [23:47]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
So he basically. That means he must have served Togayasu faithfully. So that's. That's one. And then. And then that. The second one. Okay, so second crisis. Yeah, second crisis. Anyway, the eco crisis. The first one, he was only 21 years old. And then. Then the second one, he. When he was 31 years old, there's a huge battle happened again. And Tokuga versus Takeda clients. And the Takeda client had huge army. 20. Yeah, 25, 000 people. And then the Tokuga side is just only 8, 000. It's so small. And in the battle was just. It was just a crazy in losing. And in Tokugawa Tokugawa Iasu basically lost the battle. He left. He ran away. He managed to run away. Anyway, even though the battle ended in a huge loss, the Hattori Hanzo fought well. And then Tokuga Ieyasu recognized that. And then he, Tokuga Ieyasu ordered the Hattori hanzo to lead 150 IGA foot soldiers, ninjas. And you Know, so that's, that's the beginning working as a military commander.
- [25:04]
Matt Lewis
So it's interesting that that comes out of the loss of a battle. So he, they, they lose a battle. But actually he's performed so well that he, he rises through the ranks despite that loss.
- [25:12]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Yes.
- [25:13]
Hiroko Yoda
Well, you know, Tokugawa is, you know, he's a, he's a pragmatist. So, you know, he can recognize that we're getting routed here. But, you know, we survived or we made it out because of this guy. You know, that could very well have been the case.
- [25:26]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Yes. Tokuga's life, it's very, actually it's very interesting. I mean, he, he, you know, he became a shogun in the end. He is the absolute winner in entire Game of Thrones, but that his entire life was just based nothing but struggle and nothing but patience. And he was just, you know, he could have died anytime, but he, somehow he, he, he was alive. And then, so then I think this is just my talking, you know, the, you know, so it makes sense for me that even though he's losing and he kept losing and everything, so just to just recognize all the good stuff, what, you know, among the, you know, the things he had. And I think eventually that is just, you know, that brought him to the top.
- [26:10]
Hiroko Yoda
Right. The third crisis came when Oda Nobunaga, who had unified Japan, was assassinated in 1582. And he had unified Japan, but under his fist. It was a very unstable alliance that was basically kind of being enforced through sheer willpower and fear because of Oda's charisma and his just incredible ability in battle. His death threw Japan into chaos again, and Tokugawa was aligned with him. At that time, Oda was in Kyoto when he was killed and Tokugawa was in Osaka. Tokugawa needed to get to Mikawa, his home, you know, base, literally base. That was the only his place of safety. But there was no way that he could travel through Kyoto, which was the way to get to Mikawa at that time, because there were literally everybody was on the lookout for anybody allied with, oh, Oda and trying to kill them. This is how much people hated Oda in a lot of ways. And there was a dedicated faction that wanted to kind of wrest control away from him. That's why he was assassinated. Tokugawa is no dummy. He knows that if he goes out on the open roads, he's going to get slaughtered because people are literally, you know, people who are allied with Oda are. So he's trying to figure out what to do. And Hattori Hanzo says I have an idea. I can take you a back way through the mountains of iga, which is my hometown, you know, my homeland, so to speak. And IGA is, as Hiroko was talking about, it's like a kind of basin. It's surrounded by mountains, with only one or two entrances to get in or out. This is the whole reason why the people there could live in relative peace. Because it's defensible, it has natural defenses. It's also very difficult to navigate. There's a lot of like, really rugged terrain. So Hattori Hanzo Masanari leads this group of Tokugawa and a handful of samurai because he didn't have a huge force with him through what is known in Japanese as IGA goe, or the IGA escape. And this is an incredibly dramatic moment in Japanese history because they're constantly being attacked. Hattori Hanzo is gravely wounded at one point, helping spirit Tokugawa to safety, even going through this area. But he succeeds. And if he hadn't. If he hadn't succeeded and Tokugawa had been killed, Japan we know today wouldn't exist. It just. It wouldn't exist. So Hattoi Hanzo was instrumental not only in helping Tokugawa at this really, really difficult, delicate time, arguably he's this kind of linchpin who made modern Japan in a lot of ways, which is really interesting.
- [28:51]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Yeah, so. So the. Once again, you know, the same thing for Tokugawa Ieyasu, you know, did. So he recognized his, you know, his Tokuga Iasu recognized Hattori Hanzo's work. And then he rewarded and you know, then now he commanded to. To. To lead 200 foot soldiers of IGA. Yeah.
- [29:15]
Hiroko Yoda
So his troops are growing.
- [29:17]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And then also he got so. And then he got the. We call that goku, you know. You know, 8000 Goku. It's just. It's a basic rice thing, but it's a. It showed you that, you know, he got wealthy basically.
- [29:30]
Hiroko Yoda
Well, he got a lot of. He was. He was given a lot of. Of. Of what? Reserves.
- [29:35]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
High ranking.
- [29:35]
Matt Lewis
Higher.
- [29:36]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Higher ranking samurai, I guess. Tokugaiasu has a castle. It's, you know, today is a royal. The royal family's house, Royal palace at the center of Tokyo in Odemati. You can still visit there. But anyway, that. The one. There's one gate. Yeah, it's a ruin. The ruin of the Iyas's castle, basically. And then, and then the major part, another major part is today is a royal family's house. But anyway, there's a gate named after the Hatsu Hanzo's Name? Hanzo Gate.
- [30:12]
Hiroko Yoda
Hanzo Mon.
- [30:13]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Hanzo Mon Gate. And, and then, and then. And also, I guess, you know, the Japanese respected the Hanzo Hatori Hanzo's work, I guess. And then also because of the, you know, the gate name, we have a subway. It's called Hanzomon Sen. Hanzomon Line. So when you go take the train, basically you're riding a. The train, the Hanzo it just want.
- [30:42]
Matt Lewis
To get on the Hanzo train now.
- [30:43]
Hiroko Yoda
Exactly. Cool. Like a ninja runs through the city today.
- [30:47]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
It's. So that's really interesting about, you know, the Tokyo. And even the Tokyo is like a metropolitan, you know, the. The high tech, whatever. But still, you can touch such an old history and it's. It's a, you know, it's a total intertwined, the historical thing and modern.
- [31:07]
Hiroko Yoda
But the gate is still there.
- [31:09]
Matt Lewis
Yeah. It'd be so interesting to wonder, you know, Hanzo. Someone like Hattori Hanzo ii, he. It must have been fantastic to have a gate at the castle named after him. A real honor. It's hard to imagine what he would think if he arrived in 2024 and found that there was a subway train line named after him as well.
- [31:27]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I don't know. The gate was named after his death. I think he was using that gate, but then. Then he later. Yeah, but I don't know when exactly named it, but it still is like.
- [31:35]
Hiroko Yoda
Because, you know, but Matt is absolutely right. Like, it's his gate. So it was a huge.
- [31:40]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
That was his gate, the main gate, and he was using it all the time. So. So, yeah, so I don't know. It was a nickname, but I don't know when exactly. Officially, you know, they called it in Hanzo Mon, but today it is called Hanzomon Gate.
- [31:54]
Matt Lewis
Yeah. I just wonder, you know, if he arrived in Tokyo in 2024 and he was like, hang on, there's a gate named after me. There's a subway train under the city named after me. Well, this is pretty cool. Cool.
- [32:02]
Hiroko Yoda
What is this thing running through the tube under the ground? Yes.
- [32:06]
Matt Lewis
Yeah.
- [32:16]
Eric Raff
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- [33:10]
Matt Lewis
So I guess we ought to get on to what happens to Hattori Hanzo in the end. I mean, it seems almost a shame to bring his. His life to an end because it's been so incredible. It's been so impressive. He's done and achieved so much. I guess the big question is, having been so involved with Tokugawa Ieyasu, does he see a unified Japan? Does he see Tokugawa as shogun?
- [33:33]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Unfortunately, no. He. He passed away 1592, and the Battle of Sekigahara was happened in 1600, and then Tokuga Iasu became, officially became Shogun in 1602. So he couldn't see it, unfortunately, but.
- [33:53]
Matt Lewis
He was 50 years old then.
- [33:54]
Hiroko Yoda
55.
- [33:55]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
55 years old.
- [33:55]
Hiroko Yoda
55.
- [33:56]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Can you imagine?
- [33:57]
Hiroko Yoda
Although it's. Yeah, so young, very young, very young by modern standards. But, you know, there's no hospitals back then, there's no modern medicine. And Hatoi Hanzo was somebody who did not lead life sitting on a couch in his living room like this was a person who was involved in some of the most key battles and undoubtedly, undoubtedly carried a great many scars with him. And we don't know why he died. The records just say the most believable record is that he collapsed suddenly when he was engaged in his favorite sport of falconry, which is, you know, it's a popular sport in many countries, but trained falcons, which he would have hunt for you, very popular among the aristocracy of Japan back then. And he apparently died. Was it a heart attack? You know, we don't know. But because we don't know, a lot of legend has sprung up around this. Oh, somebody poisoned him, or there was a dart from a blowgun, or some rival ninja faction killed him, or, you know, fill in the blank. When you have that hole in the record, it is just too delicious to not try to exploit in fiction. But all we know is that he died then and he must have really wanted to see it through to the end. I'm sure it sounds like it was sudden, but it's. It's a kind of sad end for a really awesome guy.
- [35:14]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, it is. I'm quite often struck by, you know, I look at various historical figures across all time and across the world, and you look at the age at which some of them died and the things that they'd achieved by that age. And then I look at myself and.
- [35:26]
Hiroko Yoda
I think, oh, how many battles have I fought in?
- [35:31]
Matt Lewis
You know, have I unified a country?
- [35:34]
Hiroko Yoda
I haven't helped any warlords across the. The, you know, the Ega Mountains. What am I doing with my life? Yeah, they lived fast and hard back then, but, you know, you got to remember we're talking about the absolute standouts of the era. The average person was probably living very close to where they were born, engaged in the exact same sort of work that their fathers and fathers before them or mothers or mothers before them had been, and led very sort of quiet lives compared to these sorts of, you know, captains of battle and industry, so to speak.
- [36:08]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Also the people that wrote down those stories. That's why people, people like us and modern people know what happened. And then. So that's the thing about the shinobi. Yeah, the shinobi literally means hiding. And that's what a ninja is all about. You have to hide to gather information because it's a spy. If that, you know, shinobis work on a public information. That means that shinobi is not shinobi. They're not doing a good job for that. So there has to be. There has to be a lot of nice job, but which are not written.
- [36:43]
Hiroko Yoda
And we know nothing.
- [36:44]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
And we know nothing about.
- [36:45]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, I quite like the idea that the only shinobi we know about are the bad ones.
- [36:49]
Hiroko Yoda
Right, exactly, exactly. And there was no, like, you know, record keeping. So it's not like, oh, well, you know, in another 20 years they're going to unseal the JFK files. You know, like, there's no files, it's just gone.
- [37:00]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
So that's why this is just only me talking again. But I think the reasons on why the Hatori Hanzo, the stuff it's written a lot is just probably because he was a commander, a military commander, and then using his own spy network of ninja client.
- [37:20]
Matt Lewis
Yeah. So he did do a lot of interesting and exciting things, but he's also better recorded than a lot of other people. So there is something we can latch onto to tell his story.
- [37:29]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Absolutely, I think so.
- [37:30]
Hiroko Yoda
And it's been told many, many times. And that's why Hattori Hanzo is so well known. He's a staple of. Of Japanese pop culture and has been for a long time. I'm not sure when the first sorts of stories were told about him, but Certainly in the 60s, there's Ninja Hattori kun, the Kids manga. And then in the 80s, there's a Kage no Gundan, the Shadow warriors, an 80s television series starring the legendary Sonny Chiba, who again played Hattori Hanzo in Quentin Tarantino's movie Kill Bill. So, you know, the reason that we know him and love him and talk about him is because of all of these appearances in pop culture.
- [38:09]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, I mean, I'm gonna have to confess that my most of my knowledge about Hattori Hanzo comes from Kill Bill, so. Right, sorry. That's the limit of my knowledge before Sushi chef.
- [38:20]
Hiroko Yoda
Exactly. But actually it's funny because Tarantino has said that unofficially he sees that as a. As a sequel to the Kage no Gundan shows. Because Hattori Hanzo, as Hiroko said at the beginning of this, is a title, but it's also a real name. So, like, you will find people named Hattori San. Hattori San. And it's like, you know, Hattori has become associated with ninja, just like Bond has become associated with spies, MI5, what have you. So it's a really similar sort of thing.
- [38:52]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, that's a really interesting comparison that he's sort of a Japanese equivalent to James Bond in the English spy genre. It's really interesting. I've seen him referred to as the demon. Is that a nickname that he would have recognized? And if so, how do we do we know how he earned that nickname?
- [39:09]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
So the Hanzo's nickname is Onino. Hanzo.
- [39:15]
Hiroko Yoda
Oni.
- [39:16]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Oni. And then the oni is not the demon. Oni is a concept, Japanese concept. And a demon is not Japanese concept. Oni in Japanese concept is. Is this. It's means powerful, powerful, strong, beyond the human capability. And then that's. That's. What is that. That was his nickname was all about. And they. Actually there is a story about him that I kind of like that. That when. That when the Tokugawa Ieyasu got involved in a political scandal, scandal incident, whatever, he had to order his own son, his own son, eldest son and wife to commit se. The suicide. And then the son was only 20 years old. Anyway, when you do the seppagut, the harakiri, there is a second to help you. The second. And then also. But the first person who got ordered to be a kaishakunin for Ieyasu's son, he couldn't do it. Just too much. And then he ran away. And then the Tokuga Yasu ordered Hattori Hanzo to be the second for. I mean, so. And Ieyasu's son. And then so that. But it was Just too much for him, too. And then in the story, and according to the story that Hattori Hanzo actually begged Ieyasu, and then I let me commit on behalf of your son. And she said, and he cried, shed the tears. So when he asked, and saying to him that oni, even oni like you yourself would shed tears. So that's the story, and that's the oni and not the demon. And so.
- [41:17]
Hiroko Yoda
And it shows that Hattori Hanzo had a heart. You know, this wasn't some kind of brutal.
- [41:23]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
So. So it's a. So that. That's. That's the story really kind of, you know, that gives you another side of his personality. He's strong and powerful and blah, blah. And then also he's. He's a human being.
- [41:35]
Matt Lewis
Yeah. I think it's really great to be able to round people like that off a bit. So we're not just talking about a guy who is militarily capable. We can see a human side to him as well. And it sounds like, rather than thinking of him as. As the demon, what they're referring to him as is something more like a superhero. They're considering him to be beyond what a normal man is. So they're setting him apart, but not in the sense of a demon as we would think of it today.
- [42:01]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Yeah, the hero behind the scene kind of thing.
- [42:03]
Hiroko Yoda
Yeah.
- [42:04]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Yeah.
- [42:12]
Kate Lister
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- [42:48]
Holly Fry
Our skin tells a story. Join me, Holly Fry, and a slate of incredible guests as we are all inspired by their journeys with psoriasis. Along with these uplifting and candid personal histories, we take a step back into the bizarre and occasionally poisonous history of our skin and how we take care of it. Whether you're looking for inspiration on your own skincare journey or are curious about the sometimes strange history of how we treat our skin, you'll find genuine, empathetic, transformative conversations here on our skin. Listen to our skin on the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [43:33]
Matt Lewis
The Assassin's Creed games give players the opportunities to step into the Animus and be transported back in time to these periods. If you could go and visit one moment in Hatori Hanzo II's life, what would you like to see? Where would you like to be?
- [43:47]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Okay, my answer is, I don't want to go. The reasons why, just because Japanese people in general, including myself, romanticize that, you know, that period of the warring states. So I don't want to meet heroes in person, you know, that it's. It's a fact that it's a brutal era. And then, you know, there has to be a lot of ugliness that I just simply didn't, you know, don't agree with, but just because so many years ago, you know, there's a fantasy attached to it, and I totally enjoy it, so I don't want to go. I want to just keep it as is.
- [44:28]
Hiroko Yoda
Can we live in a terribly polarized era? It would be like going back to an even more polarized era where you actually kill each other over the polarization instead of just arguing about it online. So as much.
- [44:39]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Yeah, because we just. We have such a, you know, the soft heart with that era. Even though it's like a brutal blooding.
- [44:45]
Hiroko Yoda
Thing, we probably couldn't survive five minutes in that time period. You know what I mean?
- [44:51]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
I'm going to just die and get killed.
- [44:54]
Hiroko Yoda
We're like number one targets, all of us. It's just like, I can imagine some bandits, like, ooh, look at these weaklings, you know, like when. Get some gold. Yeah. I mean, the historian in us would love to fill in some of the blanks in the record, of course, but actually, going there. No, thank you.
- [45:12]
Matt Lewis
No, no. I. I quite like the idea of keeping it as a nice romantic memory. You know, we'll. We'll send you back there and you can just close your eyes for a bit until we bring you home again. And just. Just imagine that it. Yeah, yeah. Imagine that it was still the romantic period that you remember.
- [45:25]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Yes.
- [45:25]
Matt Lewis
That's a brilliant answer. Thank you so much for joining us, Hiroko and Mat. It's been fascinating to try and get a little bit closer to Hattori Hanse ii. I will remember to call him the Second from now on as well. And it's been fascinating to see a different aspect of the Sengoku period, a different figure working his way through it, and also to be able to see different dimensions of him. A man who is not just a warrior. But someone who had a human side to him too, who achieved an awful lot and who's name still lives on in Tokyo today. It's fascinating. Thank you very much for joining us.
- [45:56]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Thanks for inviting us.
- [45:58]
Hiroko Yoda
We'll ride that subway in this show's honor.
- [46:01]
Dr. Eleanor Jaenega
Yeah, Hanzo.
- [46:02]
Matt Lewis
Think of me next time you're on it. I would love to be on the Hanzo line of the Tokyo subway. That sounds very cool.
- [46:08]
Hiroko Yoda
Come on. Come on out and ride it.
- [46:12]
Matt Lewis
I hope you've enjoyed this episode of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. In the next episode, I'll start my special series examining the cultures of Samurai and Shinobi with Professor Eric Raff. Then next week we're returning to the history of the Sengoku era with a trip to Mount Hiei, the home of the warrior monks. Don't forget to subscribe and follow Echoes of History wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're enjoying it, you can leave us a review too. I'll see you next time. Amongst the echoes and of history.
- [46:50]
Holly Fry
Our skin tells a story. Join me, Holly Fry, and a slate of incredible guests as we are all inspired by their journeys with psoriasis. Along with these uplifting and candid personal histories, we take a step back into the bizarre and occasionally poisonous history of our skin and how we take care of it. Whether you're looking for inspiration on your own skincare journey or are curious curious about the sometimes strange history of how we treat our skin, you'll find genuine, empathetic, transformative conversations here on our skin. Listen to our skin on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.