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- [00:02]
Matt Lewis
From long lost Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr. Elena Jarninger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life. Only on History Hit with your subscription. You'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with with a brand new release every week exploring everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com subscribe.
- [00:44]
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Brooke Devard
hello hello, it's Brooke Devard from Naked Beauty. Join me each week for unfiltered discussion about beauty trends, self care, care journeys, wellness tips, and the products we absolutely love and cannot get enough of. If you are a skincare obsessive and you spend 20 plus minutes on your skincare routine, this podcast is for you. Or if you're a newbie at the beginning of your skincare journey, you'll love this podcast as well. Because we go so much deeper than beauty. I talk to incredible and inspiring people from across industries about their relationship with beauty. You'll also hear from skincare experts. We break down lots of myths in the beauty industry. If this sounds like your thing, search for naked beauty on your podcast app and listen along. I hope you'll join us.
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- [03:17]
Dr. Eleanor Jennaga
Hello, I'm Dr. Eleanor Jennaga, and welcome to Gone Medieval From History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and the latest groundbreaking research. From the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to popes to the Crusades, we delve into the rebellions, plots and murders that tell us who we really were and how we got here. High in the Apennine Mountains of northern Italy, perched above the Alpine passes that once stitched the peninsula together, stand the ruins of a fortress called Canossa. Today, its crumbling walls rise above winding roads and deep valleys, its decaying towers capped by drifting clouds. But in the Middle Ages, this was one of the most important strongholds in Europe, a seat of power at the very heart of a continent in turmoil. And it earned that status because of the importance of its lord.
- [04:35]
Host (History Hit)
Or should I say its lady? Because Canossa was the home of one
- [04:40]
Dr. Eleanor Jennaga
of the most formidable, formidable and extraordinary figures of the medieval world, Matilda of Canossa. La Grande Contessa. I'm Dr. Eleanor Jaunega. This is Gone Medieval, and today we're uncovering the story of Matilda's remarkable life. An independent ruler in her own right, Matilda controlled vast swathes of northern Italy, from Tuscany and Lombardy to the far reaches of Verona. Sandwiched between the two heavyweight powers of 11th century Europe, the Holy Roman Empire and papal Rome, she became a hardened warrior, a seasoned diplomat and a power broker who fought tooth and nail to keep her domains from the rapacious grasp of German princelings. She was one of the closest allies of the reformed papacy at a time when Europe was engulfed by the titanic clash between emperor and pope that was the investiture crisis. And it was here at Canossa in the winter of 1077 that one of the most famous scenes in medieval history unfolded. An Emperor Henry iv, standing barefoot in the snow, begging forgiveness from Pope Gregory vii. And at the center of it all stood Matilda the Iron Countess, pulling the strings. Today I'm joined by historian, reviewer and author Catherine Harvey to bring Matilda into the limelight, showcase her achievements in the color that they deserve and ask, why
- [06:20]
Host (History Hit)
on earth isn't this badass countess more widely known among fans of the Middle Ages? Catherine, welcome to Gone Medieval.
- [06:30]
Catherine Harvey
Thanks for having me.
- [06:31]
Host (History Hit)
Oh, I'm absolutely delighted to have you here today because I'm such a huge fan of your work and everything that you have been doing in terms of work on women in the medieval period is absolutely brilliant. And we have one of the women in the medieval period par excellence to talk about today, who is Matilda of Tuscany.
- [06:54]
Dr. Eleanor Jennaga
I guess, just to start us off,
- [06:56]
Host (History Hit)
can you explain who she is and why it is that all, all people who work on medieval women are slightly obsessed with Matilda of Tuscany? I think it's fair to say.
- [07:05]
Catherine Harvey
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, yeah, she's a really excellent medieval woman. She's a countess. She rules the vast swathes of northern Italy in her own right for several decades in the late 11th, early 12th century. And I think she's really quite sort of well known and studied in Italy, less so in the English speaking world, and hasn't sort of trickled through to the popular consciousness in the way that somebody like Eleanor of Aquitaine has, but she should have done because, yeah, she's this great powerful woman who plays a really important role in some of the most important events of her time. So she's worth knowing about from the point of view of what's happening. But also, if we're interested in medieval women, which we are, then definitely we should know about her.
- [07:45]
Dr. Eleanor Jennaga
And we know a lot about her
- [07:48]
Host (History Hit)
as medievalists as well, because this is a woman who left a paper trail. Right. Like, there is incredible primary resources that we can use to work on her. Correct.
- [07:58]
Catherine Harvey
Yeah, she's really quite well documented. For Medieval Woman, there's this fantastic life by a monk called Donitzo, who. It's basically, it's a biography and he writes it. He's a monk at one of the abbeys she founded. It's written for her, although she dies before it's finished, so she never gets to read it. But so it's. I mean, it's very positive. It's very much, you know, all the good things Matilda did. He very much praises her support of the church and her piety and her great learning. She speaks lots of languages, he tells us. He praises her military abilities. She's really great. He thinks it's almost a hagiography, but it's really useful for his. And then. But I mean, because she's so important, she also gets mentioned by lots of other chroniclers and some of them are also fans and Some of them, particularly the Germans, for reasons we'll go on to talk about. So, shall we say less keen. And then there's all these other sources, because, yeah, there's lots of letters to and from her, particularly from Pope Gregory VII. And there's a lot of administrative documents. There's over 100 of her charters. We've got, for example, you know, granting land and stuff like that, and several of them are sealed, which is really quite unusual. It's pretty innovative for Italy in this period. She's one of the first women to seal her documents. So, yeah, fantastically well documented. We know a lot about her.
- [09:13]
Host (History Hit)
It's just ridiculously exciting whenever you can find out this much about someone. To be fair, I think Donitzo has done a number on me. I have fallen for his propaganda slightly. I'm like, she is really great, you know, whenever I read that. But also within that, because you can see so much of her administrative work, I think it really does sort of show that these claims are largely grounded in reality. Of course, one praises one's benefactors. Right. If you're going to write a biography of someone or a chronicle, you always tweak things a little bit so that everybody knows, but you also can't do that if you are attempting to praise someone that everybody knows is kind of awful. So I think that. That we are able, even reading between the lines, to see that. That this is a pretty spectacular woman.
- [10:05]
Catherine Harvey
Absolutely, yeah.
- [10:06]
Host (History Hit)
Can we talk a little bit about the lands that she was ruling? Because we know that she's connected in particular with Knoza, and this is a bit of a key artery. Right. For people in the medieval world.
- [10:21]
Catherine Harvey
Absolutely. So, yeah, I mean, her lands, there's sort of much of what we now call northern Italy. So she rules what we'd now think of as Lombardy and Tuscany and, yeah, quite a lot of northern Italy. And as you say, Canosa is the main base, and it's basically a castle in the Apennines. If you think about. I'm not very good at geography, but if you think about the geography of northern Italy, there's a lot of mountains. And so having all these castles controlling this land, she controls all the key routes through the Apennines, through the Po Valley, and so that's really important in terms of people moving around in the Middle Ages. And also, her lands are sort of sandwiched between. She's got the Holy Roman Empire to the north and she's got the Papal States to the south. And at this point, it is the Papal States. It is a Proper territory. It's not just the little bit in the Vatican that they've got now. So she sort of literally is in the middle of this defining power struggle of this period between these two powers who are both claiming to be the supreme authority in Western Christendom. So she can't help but get involved.
- [11:21]
Host (History Hit)
I thank God she did, because, I mean, the drama is excellent. So. But I want to. To kind of ask you a question, because I think that there's this tendency when we talk about powerful medieval women, to think of it as some sort of anomaly, as though women like this have sort of come out of nowhere and that it's incredible that a woman could ever wield this sort of power. I mean, how remarkable is it that we have a woman like this working and living in the 11th century?
- [11:51]
Catherine Harvey
I think she's relatively unusual in that she's the sole heiress to all territories and she's ruling them in her own right. You know, there are parallels. Somebody like, I don't know, Aethelflaed, lady of the Mercians in the previous century. There are a couple of Byzantine empresses in the 1050s who briefly rule in their own right. But I mean, what there are. What she's not unusual is in being a powerful woman. There are lots of powerful women in Europe in the 11th century. A lot of them are sort of acting on behalf as men, so they're acting as consorts, so they're acting as regents. But, you know, I mean, as somebody like, I don't know, Matilda Flanders, William the Conqueror's wife, who is regent several times and is really good at it, or sort of within Matilda's social sphere. Empress Agnes, who's regent for Henry iv, her cousin, who is going to be a big player in her story. You know, there's a lot of women who are really powerful and it's not unusual. You know, we do now sort of stick them up as if they're unicorns. They're just really interesting women.
- [12:53]
Host (History Hit)
Can we talk a little bit about Mathilda's family? Because I find the familial connections here quite interesting. So we really connect her with these northern Italian lands. But she does have pretty good connections within the Holy Roman Empire, right?
- [13:11]
Catherine Harvey
She does, yeah. I mean, her father is Boniface of Canossa, who is one of the most, probably the most powerful prince in northern Italy at this point. But her mother, Beatrice, is. Yeah, deep in that imperial world. She's a descendant of Charlemagne. She was raised at the imperial court by her aunt, the empress. So, yeah, you know, this is very much dynastic politics or family connection. She's deeply entrenched in that world.
- [13:34]
Host (History Hit)
I think that that is an important point to make, because there's this tendency to think of power in the medieval world as very closely referencing power now. So, you know, Italy is Italy and Germany's are, you know, to polities that don't exist at the time, where there is actually quite a porous, I think, connective way of getting back and forth between the truly wealthy at the time, especially in the kind of Central European areas.
- [14:03]
Catherine Harvey
No, absolutely. It's a completely different setup to the one we've got now. It's nothing like what it is now.
- [14:07]
Host (History Hit)
Can we talk a little bit about how Matilda becomes the heir? Because whilst I don't find it particularly wild that. That a woman is ruling, what I do think is interesting is she's the youngest child of her parents.
- [14:20]
Catherine Harvey
Right.
- [14:20]
Host (History Hit)
And so that is interesting.
- [14:22]
Catherine Harvey
Yeah. And I mean, it's. Well, it's either luck or bad luck, I suppose, depending on whose perspective you're looking at it from. Because, yeah, she's the youngest of the three children. She's got an elder sister and an older brother. Her father's assassinated in 1052. He's killed while he's out, while he's hunting. It's all a bit like William II in the New Forest, and it's all a bit shady, but, yeah, he's dead while the three children are still quite small, and the sister dies the following year and the brother Frederick lasts another, I think, two or three years, and then he dies too. So she's the youngest and she's the only one left. So by the time she's 10, yeah, she's inherited this vast amount of land
- [15:00]
Host (History Hit)
and it is just quite incredible, you know. And so I suppose at this point in time, her mother is ruling. And I actually find her mother, Beatrice, to be an incredibly interesting woman in her own right. And she does a lot of work, I would say, attempting to consolidate power in this area. So it's. It's not as though Matilda is short of role models, I suppose.
- [15:28]
Catherine Harvey
No, I mean, I agree. Beatrice is a really interesting woman. And, yeah, so she's widowed, she's got these young children, and so she's Regent, Yeah, for years. And she's pretty good at it, I think it's fair to say. And she. Yeah, quite quickly does two things that really help to shore up her position. One is that she marries again. She marries a cousin of hers called Godfrey the Bearded, and he's probably the Biggest enemy of her other cousin, the Emperor Henry iii. So, which is good because it means he can be relied on to stand up for her against the Emperor, which is quite useful, particularly when Matilda and her mother get captured by the Emperor and Godfrey gets them out. So that's really important in keeping them going, keeping their hands on these lands. And it's also Beatrice who builds the alliance with the papacy that will become really important to Matilda. And, yeah, as we've seen, there are major political and religious force, so again, they're good ones to have on side. That's really important. Ensuring that proposition is Beatrice, the person
- [16:24]
Host (History Hit)
who negotiates Matilda's marriage to God. Free the hunchback.
- [16:31]
Catherine Harvey
Yeah. So Godfrey the hunchback is the son of Godfrey the Bearded. So, yeah, Matilda is betrothed. They're betrothed for years and before they eventually get married, after Godfrey the Senior dies, and then, I mean, it's a disaster of a marriage, it goes horribly wrong. They do live together for a while, they have a baby who dies very young. And after that, it all falls apart really quickly. She goes back to Italy on her own and is trying to get the marriage annulled and talks about becoming a nun and. And very much is done with Godfrey. It's clear he fights quite hard to try and get her back, I think probably because he loves all her lands rather than because he wants her back. But, yeah, he's quite keen to try and keep it going. And it all gets quite nasty. I mean, he may well have been responsible for the rumours that she was having an affair with Pope Gregory, which are almost certainly not true. I mean, some people have tried to build this into this sort of grand romance between the Countess and the Pope. I don't think there's any real evidence for that. His letters to her are. Are warm, shall we say, but within the bounds of sort of medieval diplomacy, I think, which can be quite florid. She's very loyal to a series of Popes, not just him. So I think it's all been built into something that it quite definitely wasn't. But then the next thing that happens is that Godfrey gets assassinated, so that is the end of that marriage. Some people try and suggest her enemies suggest that maybe she had him assassinated, but again, there doesn't really seem to be any evidence for that. But it's. Yeah, as a mar. As a marriages go, it's. It's a pretty bad one.
- [17:56]
Host (History Hit)
Well, I find both of these accusations quite interesting because these are the sort of things that I expect to see people Sling around at powerful women.
- [18:05]
Catherine Harvey
You know, we.
- [18:05]
Host (History Hit)
We see this with Eleanor of Aqua Chain, all of the. The varying affairs that she is supposed to be having. You know, anytime a man turns up dead, if his wife is ambitious, then it's very easy to sort of look at. At her as well. So this is almost kind of bog standard. And I find it quite interesting that people do want to build out on. On the idea of a romance between Gregory and Matilda, but given the circumstances and also given the fact that these sorts of accusations are a dime a dozen about powerful women, I find it really quite credulous, I suppose. Is it. Is that fair?
- [18:44]
Catherine Harvey
I don't quite get the enthusiasm for it, other than as a sort of. Yeah, it feels more like a romance storyline than anything there's serious evidence for. But, I mean, I think probably it works quite well in the sense that the fact that Matilda and her mother are quite close to the Pope doesn't go down very well in a lot of circles. You know, there are a lot of complaints. The papal policy is being dictated by women. They talk about sort of a new senate of women. I mean, I think it's. To be fair to Gregory, it's worth pointing out he worked closely with various women. It wasn't just them. He seems to have taken them seriously as political forces and, you know, people. It was worth doing business with, which I think is worth bearing in mind. But I mean, it's also an accusation. It. Yeah, it works in a clear way for her as a powerful woman, but I think it's probably also an accusation that probably plays on him because he sort of set himself up as this champion of clerical celibacy. And to go, well, this big champion of clerical celibacy is having an affair with the Countess of Tuscany. You can see why they'd say that, I suppose.
- [19:45]
Host (History Hit)
I mean, to be fair, it is a really great rumor to start. I will give them that. You know, it's quite fun at the very least. So at what point in time does Matilda become the sole ruler of Tuscany? Because for quite some time she is sort of working alongside of her mother, Right?
- [20:02]
Catherine Harvey
She is, yeah. They work together, more or less up to. Beatrice dies in 1076, and pretty much up to that point, they've been working together. I mean, I think Beatrice sort of trained her daughter quite well and sort of. She did start to do things on her own. So we start to see Matilda issuing her own charters and sort of supervising cults on her own and that sort of thing. But she. So she has sort of trained her up. So she's ready. And, yeah, from 1076, she's on her own. And I mean, in that sense, for Matilda, it's really good that the husband's died, because it sort of feels like had he not, he probably would have, at that point, tried to muscle in and take over and rule the lands in her name. But of course, now she's free of them all, she can rule it as she likes. I don't think there's a major transition in her approach, actually. For Beatrice, there's a lot of continuity in what they do. But, yeah, Matilda now really comes into her own as the sole ruler of all these lands.
- [20:51]
Host (History Hit)
One of my favorite things that Matilda is embroiled in, I'm going to have to bring it up because we've already mentioned Knosso. Right. And that is one of those medieval buzzwords, I think, because obviously we think about kenosa when we think about the walk to Kenosa, you know, and here's. Here's Matilda. She's one of Gregory VII's closest allies, and she is very involved in conversations in the investiture crisis. And here we. Here's Gregory. He is fighting with Henry iv. Can you do a brief recap for those who might not know what the investiture contest is? Even though I never stop talking about
- [21:33]
Catherine Harvey
it, but that's okay. Yeah. So, I mean, essentially, it's a dispute over who gets to appoint popes and bishops and abbots to all these ecclesiastical positions. And it's something that it crops up again and again in medieval Europe because they're very powerful figures. And for obvious reasons, both the Church and the secular authorities want to have a say in who gets those jobs, so they get people who are favorable to them. But this particular episode of that ongoing struggle, the investiture conflict, I mean, it's basically this big power struggle between Gregory VII and Henry iv, who are, I think it's fair to say, both very invested in and keen to expand their rights. You know, they are two very forceful men who have got conflicting ideas about who should be in charge of what. Henry's come to the throne as a child, and he's very keen to get things back to where they were when his father was in charge of, because Henry III really, he'd had things more or less his way. You know, he'd appointed the bishops within his territories. He'd been able to make sure that a series of pro imperial Germans were appointed pope. And Henry IV understandably wants that back. But he's up against Gregory, who's this great reforming pope, really, into papal rights. I mean, I think his papacy, to be fair, is a sort of turning point for the medieval papacy in terms of changing the way it's going.
- [22:48]
Host (History Hit)
Oh, God, yeah, yeah.
- [22:49]
Catherine Harvey
And so in 1075, Gregory holds this big synod in Rome and he announces that anyone who receives a bishopric or an abbey from the hands of a layman is not going to be counted as a bishop. And, you know, he's excluded from the grace of St. Peter. He's totally Persona noncrata. And what's more, any lay power, any king, any emperor who tries to give somebody a bishopric is going to be excommunicated. And so, I mean, inevitably, it's going to go wrong from there, isn't it? Because Henry keeps insisting on his rights. So by the end of 1075, there's this big row about the Archbishopric of Milan. Henry's still trying to get his man in. Gregory's having none of it. He starts talking about disobedience to the Pope, being disobedient to God threatens him. He's not only going to excommunicate him, he's going to depose him. And Henry still won't drop it. He gets together with the pro imperial bishops of Italy and Germany. They withdraw their impedance to Gregory. They start talking about him as this false monk and they say, there's got to be a new election. We've got to have a good pope. So Gregory obviously, at that point, excommunicates Henry and deposes him. So, yeah, I mean, it turns into this massive dispute. It goes on for decades. Eventually, in the 1120s, they manage to sort of patch it up. But, yeah, there's a lot of drama to get through before they get to that point.
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- [28:15]
Catherine Harvey
And
- [28:15]
Host (History Hit)
I Mean, I suppose it all kind of comes to a head, doesn't it, with the walk to Kenosa? Can you just explain what it is and why Henry had to take.
- [28:25]
Catherine Harvey
Take a little.
- [28:26]
Host (History Hit)
Take a little stroll, didn't he, to Canosa?
- [28:29]
Catherine Harvey
He did, he did, yeah. So, I mean, this dispute puts him in a really tough position, not least because he's got quite a lot of problems in Germany, quite a lot of princes who were very hostile to him, and basically they sort of ally themselves with the Pope and tell him he's got four months to sort this out, get the sentence of excommunication lifted or he's done. And so, yeah, he decides he's got to go to Italy to meet Pope Gregory, even though it's in the middle of an awful winter and he's got all these mountains to cross, but nevertheless, off he goes to meet Gregory, who's taken refuge with Matilda. And there are. I mean, there are all these mad stories about the royal party sort of crawling on their hands and knees through the mountains, having to be carried on piggyback by their guides. It's all quite dramatic. And then when he gets there, he's supposed to have spent three days sitting outside, waiting in the snow, barefoot and weeping, and before the Pope agrees to see him. And, I mean, we know that those sorts of. It's a big penitential performance, essentially, and we know those could be powerful. There's lots of, you know, Henry ii, when he goes on his pilgrimage to Canterbury after Becket gets murdered, for example. It's something that can work. And, I mean, Henry does, in a sense, get what he wants because he does get this sentence of excommunication removed. The problem, I suppose, is that he's had to effectively acknowledge the Pope's authority to get it, because he's basically accepted. The Pope does have the power to excommunicate him and to remove him from office, which is a bit humiliating, to be honest, as a lot of the anti imperial chroniclers point out.
- [29:57]
Host (History Hit)
I think that this is one of these things that we see every future Emperor quite frustrated about, because it does really sort of cement a new status quo. And Matilda is here in the background. Right. She's playing a part in all of this, in. In the reconciliation. Correct. You know, she's. She's able to kind of, like, broker this particular peace deal.
- [30:24]
Catherine Harvey
Yeah, I mean, she's basically hosting the whole thing. It's all happening at her castle, isn't it? But not only that, yeah, she is very much sort of mediating between them and She. I mean, she's his cousin, she's a great pal of the Popes, so she's in a good position to help, I guess. And she's been involved in earlier negotiations, certainly, according to Zenitso, she's the main mediator at this meeting. There's a great picture in the 12th century manuscript of his Life of Henry sort of groveling on the floor in front of an enthrones Matilda while the Pope looks on. It's a brilliant picture, but I mean, I think the whole. The fact that she's able to do this clearly, I mean, it reflects how important she is, the status she's got. I wonder whether there is also an element here of gender being an advantage for once, in the sense that, of course, intercession and sort of peacemaking are very stereotypically female activities in Christian tradition, go back to the Virgin Mary. But also in terms of. It's one of the main ways in which queen consorts, for example, are very good at exercising power. And so, yeah, I do wonder whether there's a bit of that sort of playing on female stereotypes here. That. And that's one of the reasons maybe, why some of the chroniclers are willing to celebrate this, even when maybe some of the other things she does they don't like.
- [31:37]
Host (History Hit)
I suppose that is a really good point. This is a really traditional form of female power that we're seeing on display here. And I think you have to say Matilda really plays a blinder here, because in the first place, we do get this road back for both Gregory and Henry, but, well, it's not like there isn't something in it for Matilda as well, right?
- [32:02]
Catherine Harvey
No, I mean, I think it's easy to talk about her as if she's just sort of the Pope's good little handmaid and helping him out. And obviously she's far more than that. I mean, at this point in time, she's concerned with all sort of territorial concerns of her own. She's trying to get her hands on her late husband's lands, she's trying to get her mother's dower lands and she's trying to really cement her position and to make sure that she keeps her hands on her lands. And so actually to you know, to sort of get the Pope where she. Where she wants him, the Emperor where she wants him, cements her position in a way that is actually very useful to her as well. This is not entirely selfless, but as
- [32:36]
Host (History Hit)
good as a job as everybody does with the walk to Canosa. You know, this is it's famous. We talk about it all the time. It is this really important episode in terms of papal imperial relations. I wouldn't say it's a lasting truth. I don't think that that is a way of discussing it. And we do end up still seeing Matilda very much embroiled, not just in the politics, you know, the sort of horse trading of papal imperial relations. But she gets dragged into actual war, right?
- [33:12]
Catherine Harvey
Yeah, yeah. I mean, the whole thing goes horribly wrong really quickly, partly because there's a civil war in Germany. Henry is having a lot of problems trying to assert himself against an anti king. He's called Rudolph, who's causing him a lot of problems. And so again, he's sort of. He's in this position where he needs papal support, but he still wants his own rights, he's still trying to appoint bishops. And so it all goes horribly wrong again. And eventually it gets to the point where Henry is apparently threatening the Pope. Well, either you excommunicate Rudolph or I'll get myself a Pope who will, basically. And so, yeah, that whole settlement that comes out of that walk crumbles really quickly. And then the Pope does excommunicate Henry, who follows through with his threats and says, no, Gregory's got to be deposed. And at this point they appoint basically an anti pope. Why? Birth of Ravenna. It was Clement iii. And so Gregory gets forced into exile, the antipope's enthroned as Rome. I mean, he'll get. Although Gregory does come back, this Clement chap will be a real thorn in the papacy's side up until he dies in, I think, 1100. And so, yeah, Matilda inevitably is embroiled in all this ongoing trouble. And I mean, through the 1030s into the early 1080s, the early 1090s, Henry is quite a threat to Matilda. You know, she has. There's a really big loss in a battle at Volta Mantovana in 1080. And over the next few years he manages to get control of quite a few of her lands. She's also got problems with rebellions amongst her own subjects that are causing her problems. So, I mean, I think it's a sort of a real testament to how resilient and resourceful she is that she manages to keep going. She makes very good use of what she's got. So all these mountain fortresses she uses to wage a sort of guerrilla warfare and where she's got control over mountain passes, you know, in a sense, if you're in control of those, you're in control of the area. So she makes great use of those. She carries on working hard at her relationship with the papacy and she, you know, she's willing to do what it takes. She'll start melting down church treasures if she needs some more gold. So she, yeah, she. She manages to keep herself going, but it is tough for a while.
- [35:19]
Host (History Hit)
Yeah, it's a really pragmatic period for her, I think. You know, I've seen, for example, the way she's able to continue fighting referred to as guerrilla warfare, which I think is quite sweet. But I'm not sure that, that it necessarily counts because we're still doing it with castles and that and that sort of thing. But I do think that this so of scrappiness that she displays here is quite interesting from our perspective, because she's very clearly able to respond to the moment, as terrible as it is she is.
- [35:56]
Catherine Harvey
And I mean, I think she's a pretty good general, I think. I mean, I don't think she's actually turning up on battlefields to fight. And she always seems to prefer diplomacy if she can get it to work. But there's no doubt about it, you know, she's a commander, she's strategizing, she knows her sort of military tactics, and she is, in the end, capable of outmaneuvering the Imperial army. And again, I mean, we talked about how she's sort of set up as this unique figure, but there are quite a lot of women in 11th century Italy who are doing these sorts of things. You know, probably one of the most famous is something like Sicklegater of Salona who supposedly did go onto the battlefield. I think there's some debate whether she really did, but there's no doubt about it. A lot of noble women at this point are quite hands on in terms of organizing military campaigns in a way that maybe the stereotypes, we wouldn't expect them to be.
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Host (History Hit)
She's also doing the sort of things that we would expect to see women do, which is, for example, putting together a brand new marriage.
- [39:02]
Catherine Harvey
Yeah.
- [39:03]
Host (History Hit)
Doesn't necessarily help the situation. I would, I suppose, but you can understand why she might. Can you tell us a little bit about her marriage to Welf the fat name.
- [39:14]
Catherine Harvey
Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, this is. This was another disaster, really. And it's very much a strategic alliance. Personally, I think they've got absolutely nothing in common. Not least because he's in his late teens and she's into her 40s by this point. So I don't. Yeah, I don't think this was. Again, this is definitely not some great romance. This is very much supposed to bring everybody political benefits. Father another welfare is one of the. One of the most powerful men in northern Italy. So it's supposed to bring these two families together. Woolf's father will help her against the. In her problems with the emperor. And I think probably in the long term, both worlds are hoping to get their hands on her lands again. That's what they're really interested in. And the Pope is encouraging it. And it seems like a good idea, sort of. It goes wrong, the emperor invades again and within a few years it's broken down. So, yeah, bad marriage number two. Unfortunately for Matilda, not a lot of
- [40:07]
Host (History Hit)
luck with marriages, God bless her. I would say that. But we do see this interesting period at kind of the end here of the disputes with Henry where we see Matilda play an absolute blinder with the girls.
- [40:27]
Catherine Harvey
Right.
- [40:27]
Host (History Hit)
So she manages to invoke the kind of gossip Network to get one over on Henry. Can you talk a little bit about this?
- [40:36]
Catherine Harvey
Yeah. So within the space of a couple of years in the early 1090s, she manages to get Henry's son on side. His son, comrade comes over to her side, brings his army with him. I mean, I think that's probably as just you know, stereotypical rebellious son, sick of his father not giving him enough power, off he goes to fight for the other side. Again, we see that a lot. Although her enemies talk a lot about sort of her womanly guile and this nasty woman who's sort of taken advantage of this poor young man. But however she does it, it's a massive coup. But, yeah, I mean, the really interesting bit is when the following year, Henry's wife defects to Matilda Eupraxia of Kiev, who's known as Empress Adelaide in the West. And it's a really interesting story. I mean, Henry's first wife had been this really powerful figure, but Adelaide is completely sidelined. She's kept as a virtual prisoner in Verona. She's sort of under house arrest. She's not allowed any sort of role in government. We don't really know why, we don't know whether there was some reason Henry didn't trust her or what had gone wrong, but something had gone very wrong. And eventually she asks Matilda for help. Matilda sends a small army and she goes over to the other side. And then she publicly claims in these statements that are read out at church councils that actually Henry has been seriously mistreating her and making her participate in all jeers and on all sorts of, you know, really scandalous things. I mean, a bit like a lot of the really lurid claims about Matilda, there's very little evidence that any of it's actually true. And I think a lot of historians have been really quite skeptical about it as being the sort of thing that, you know, a polemicist would come up with. But a bit like some of the stories about Matilda, they do stick and in fact, they sort of get gradually more and more Lewis, people start going, it wasn't just an orgy, it was an orgy with black magic involved and, and all sorts of, yeah, really scandalous claims. But again, whatever the truth of it here is here, I mean, it's clearly very beneficial to Matilda that she's got both of these key players on her side now.
- [42:31]
Host (History Hit)
Well, she really needs this sort of backup as well, because fundamentally, I think that one of the things that happens while she's involved in all this high level politicking, while she's she's doing a great job in terms of keeping control of varying castles with what she's got. But I, I think there is a way of, of looking at this that shows us that whilst she is so embroiled in these battles, we begin to see cities that would ordinarily be under her remit become a bit more independent. You know, I'm thinking Pisa off the top of my head. Verona, Luca, you know, these are places that are strategically very important. They are really important in terms of finance. And losing control of them means a great comedown for her finances at the very, very least.
- [43:23]
Catherine Harvey
Yeah. And I mean, I think the whole, the whole sort of dynamic in Italy is starting to change at this point. We're starting to see, as you say, the city's becoming more and more important, more and more independent. We sort of start seeing the emergence, the dynamics, I suppose the sort of. The city states are staunchly pro and anti imperial factors that would be so important in later middle evil Italy. And so it's an increasingly big problem for her. How is she gonna control these cities? Some of them actually openly revolt against her authority. Ferrara, for example, in, I think it's 1102, and she has to use force to put those sorts of rebellions down. But she's also, she's sort of, you know, she's trying to think about, well, okay, how else can she reassert her authority? And I suppose again, she does try and go for things that will build cooperation. And so, I mean, we've talked a lot about Henry trying to control episcopal appointments, but actually she's very keen on trying to get her men into bishoprics in these cities because bishops are really powerful figures in these medieval Italian cities. So she wants them to have pro Matilda bishops. She's very good at using patronage to get cathedral chapters and big urban monasteries and the like on side. So, for example, in Pisa, she largely funds the rebuilding of the cathedral, which obviously goes down well in the city. She's building links with urbanly, she's granting privilege to citizens. So she's doing what she can to get things on stuff. And I mean, also, I suppose she's moving around. She does turn up in these places. We tend to talk about her as if she lived in this castle up in the mountains. Whereas actually, like most rules at this point, she's very itinerant and she's turning up in person.
- [44:50]
Host (History Hit)
Oh, absolutely. And I, I think that that is one of the things that you really see with her correspondence as well, because she'll mention she Just she'll name drop, she'll talk about who it is she visited, what she is doing. And so you can really track where she is when in. In a way that we don'. Get to do with a lot of other people in the Middle Ages.
- [45:09]
Catherine Harvey
No. And that's really important in seeing how sort of the personal element of the power, I think. And, yeah, how involved she is. And I say that she's not just this sort of princess up in a castle in the way that some of the more romantic stories present her.
- [45:20]
Host (History Hit)
Well, as we get towards the end of her life, she's in a really unusual position for a woman who has this kind of power because she doesn't have any children. Right. So what does she end up doing in her twilight years? I mean, I think that it's safe to say there's a bit more of a focus on her monastic patronage. Would that be fair?
- [45:43]
Catherine Harvey
Yeah, yeah, I think she does. I mean, the succession obviously is a really big problem. A bit, you know, a bit like Elizabeth I. She seems to be sort of floating around, sort of making various people think they might. Might get it. But yeah, she's also obviously thinking about her broader legacy and obviously religious patronage is a really powerful way to do that at this point. And I think she probably is a genuinely pious woman as well. So I think that the dazzle Bearden from that side. And so, yeah, she's very much building her legacy in that way. I mean, we've already mentioned Pisa. She's also very involved in the building the new cathedral at Modena and overseeing the translation of a big set of relics there. And she's particularly interested in San Benedetto at Polorone, which is sort of a monastery. Very strongly associated with her family, with her ancestors. Some of them are buried there. And so in her final years, yeah, she's very busy endowing that with lots of properties, lands. She gives them some spectacular gifts. The Gospels of Matilda of Tuscany, for example, which are now, I think, in the Morgan Library in New York. If you look at on the Internet, it's digitized. It's a fantastic illuminated manuscript that's well worth having a look at. And she's buried there, you know, that ultimately is going to be her burial place. She's left there in peace until the 17th century, when one of the 17th century popes decided it would be a good idea to dig her up and move her to St. Peter's Rome. So, yeah, that. That's her plan. That's going to be the sort of the big mausoleum and that's going to be her big legacy.
- [47:05]
Host (History Hit)
I find this really interesting, though, because in terms of legacy, if what we're talking about is that in the 17th century the Papacy still is so interested in her that they will go disturb her tomb and move her to the Vatican, that's crazy, actually, you know, that in terms of people being that involved in the legacy of a medieval ruler, that is definitely, definitely noteworthy.
- [47:37]
Catherine Harvey
It is. And I mean, I think it shows how much she's captured the Italian in sort of imagination in a way that, yeah, she hasn't ours. I don't. I would think it's. I think it shows sort of how high her. How important she was in her time. And I mean, she's a very divisive figure. You know, if you think about how her contemporaries were thinking about her, she's very much a polarizing figure. From people like Donitzo who are being so positive and comparing her to her illustrious male ancestors, he thinks she's particularly like her great grandfather Atto. And he pays her what I suppose in the Middle Ages is the ultimate compliment of sort of treating her more like a ruler than a woman. And I mean, to be fair, lots of other people have good things to say about her too. You know, she's, you know, she's prudent, she's wise, she's a faithful warrior for St Peter. Generally they think she's good if they're on the faithful side. The Imperial Chronicles are rather rude and as we've said, come up with all these, these rumors about her. But I think what they all do agree is how powerful and effective and frightening she can be if you're on the wrong side. So definitely, you know, by the time she dies, her reputation is quite on a high and it sort of, it seems to stay there. I mean, she does get very romanticized if you, if you start reading sort of 19th century books about her, it's all, oh, she was beautiful and she was clever. But no, I think the sort of the sense that she was this really interesting woman and really powerful woman who's. Who we ought to be thinking about is there all along.
- [49:03]
Host (History Hit)
Well, I think that's an incredibly important point. And she is not just a sort of puppet. This is a woman who was 100% working to ensure that she's going to have this sort of legacy. And it is very impressive to be able to build a reputation such as this in the medieval period that really has a through line to the modern period that does kind of play on these romanticized images. I mean, yes, obviously most of what is written about her in the 19th century is probably garbage, but I think that's true of almost every big medieval ruler. You can really see her hand in this, though. I think this is a woman who really understands how posterity works. You know, she makes very shrewd donations. And as you say, I do think that has to do with the fact that she is, she is genuinely quite religious as well. But I suppose if you're going to leave a legacy, you know, if you don't have children, if you are looking down the, the barrel of your family kind of losing control of these lands, what you can say is you're going to maintain these links with the church at the very least. And I think it's important for people to remember that that is something that they would think has real meaning in the afterlife. You know, rulers are in a kind of a tricky position because they do a lot of bad things, right? They do a lot of that.
- [50:28]
Catherine Harvey
Absolutely.
- [50:28]
Host (History Hit)
They do a lot of bad things. And so you do need to curry favor to make sure that you don't spend as much time in purgatory, Right, Definitely.
- [50:35]
Catherine Harvey
And I suppose if you're looking at it from the hostile side. Yeah. One, one possible argument is, well, she did all this stuff in her last years because she was worried about what was going to happen to herself. Yeah.
- [50:42]
Host (History Hit)
Well, Katherine, this has been an unmitigated delight. Thank you so much for coming to talk to us about Matilda. I hope to have you back in the future to dig more deeply into lots of other issues because you are just the best. Thank you so much.
- [51:00]
Catherine Harvey
Thank you. It's been fun.
- [51:03]
Dr. Eleanor Jennaga
Thank you so much once again to Katherine for joining me and thank you for listening to Gone Medieval from History Hit. If you're interested in some of the topics we mentioned in this episode, you might want to go back and check out our past episodes on the investiture contest. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award winning original TV documents, entries including
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Host (History Hit)
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Dr. Eleanor Jennaga
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Host (History Hit)
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Dr. Eleanor Jennaga
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Host (History Hit)
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Dr. Eleanor Jennaga
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Host (History Hit)
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Dr. Eleanor Jennaga
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