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- [00:02]
Matt Lewis
From long lost Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr. Elena Jarninger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life. Only on History Hit with your subscription. You'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with with a brand new release every week exploring everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com subscribe. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
- [01:02]
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- [02:02]
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- [02:25]
Matt Lewis
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- [02:30]
Grow Therapy Announcer
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- [02:31]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Fees may apply.
- [02:36]
Matt Lewis
Hello, I'm Dr. Eleanor Yannicka and welcome to Gone Medieval. From History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and the latest groundbreaking research. From the Vikings to the Normans, from Kings to Popes to the Crusades, we delve into the Rebellions, plots, and murders that tell us who we really were and how we got. Dynasties, succession, the pure blood of firstborn children. All of these are concepts inextricably linked to the kingdom world of medieval Europe and its cutthroat theater of dynastic politics. But what happened to the children of kings and princes, of queens and contesses who were born out of wedlock, the so called royal bastards of the Middle Ages? Were they spurned, rejected, and lost to the mists of history? Or were they capable of wielding as much power as true born siblings? Did political strength and upright character outweigh questions of birth? I'm Dr. Eleanor Yanaga, and this is Gone Medieval. Today, we're delving into the world of medieval illegitimacy. To answer those very questions. We'll trace the development of illegitimacy before explaining the lives and legacies of some of the most famous and consequential royal bastards in England's history. From the grinding military achievements of Robert of Gloucester during the Anarchy to the lavish titles bestowed on Henry Fitzroy by his father, Henry viii, the story of medieval bastardry is as much about proximity to power as it is about exclusion from it. In many cases, these men and women stood at the very center of political life, commanding armies, governing kingdoms, marrying into rival dynasties, and sometimes even threatening the succession itself. Their lives reveal a medieval world far more flexible and politically pragmatic than we often imagine, where lineage mattered enormously, but could still be bent when circumstances demanded. Joining me today is Lauren Johnson, a historian and writer specializing in the late medieval and early Tudor world. Together, we'll uncover how royal bastards could become warriors, bishops, kingmakers, and dynastic threats, and explore why, ultimately, questions of legitimacy mattered so deeply in the medieval imagination. Well, Lauren, welcome to Gone Medieval.
- [05:45]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Thank you. I'm excited. I'm going medieval all the time in my life. So nice to have gone for once.
- [05:52]
Matt Lewis
Listen, today is no exception. We're going to do it big because this is, you know, one of these reader requests. People ask us all the time about illegitimate children of nobles in the Middle Ages. This is just one of those things that I think really captures people's imagination. Why do you think this is, you know, like, this is kind of like a fan favorite. Do you think it's because it feels like a scandal, or is it just because, you know, it? It kind of proves that not all medieval people are like these boring religious people. Like, what is it you think?
- [06:24]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Ironically, lots of the illegitimate people are boring religious people, so they've got that Wrong. I've got two theories. Right. I think, first of all, yes, we're all perverts, and we all just quite enjoy salacious detail. And inherently, anything that is about illegitimacy is about, you know, forbidden sex or misbehaving people. So I think it appeals to that impulse within us all. And I. I think the second theory I have is that, like, we all, most of us, I presume, know that we weren't kings and queens in the past. My aunt always says that our family is descended from Baldrick's turnip. That's our level of society. That's a. It's a Blackadder joke, in case anyone doesn't know who Baldrick is. So, like, we all basically know in the past we were probably peasants, but what if you did your family tree and you came across some sort of secret relative who had been the child of a king or queen, and there's so many illegitimate children that, you know, it's not impossible. So I think it's those two things that are really firing up people's imaginations about this.
- [07:33]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, I mean, I suppose that that's true, but I just want to say to all of my fellow peasant stock, that's actually what's cool. It's actually way cooler to be a peasant, so you shouldn't dream of being descended from nobles and kings, because they're all terrible. I was about to say they're all bastards, but clearly only some. Oh, okay. All right. Well, I suppose that we have to sort of confront where the concept of illegitimacy comes from anyway. You know, like, what's the origin of saying this child is. Is a bastard?
- [08:06]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
It's the bloody patriarchy, isn't it, Eleanor? That's my. That's what I think, fundamentally, it's about particularly male power, male privilege, and later on, also church privilege. But, like, the origins of it, I think, when you dial it down to the simplest level, it's that you can be pretty sure most of the time who someone's biological mother is, because usually the child emerges from them, but you can't always be certain who the biological father is. Especially with a newborn baby. They just look like tiny aliens. So I think it comes from that. It's like people want to. The powerful want to preserve their power, the male and the wealthy want to preserve their. Their line. There's some sort of weird, I don't know, like, primeval impulse going on there, and so laws start to be set up from. I mean, really from like, 1200s onwards. It's actually a bit later than maybe people might imagine, I think, which are kind of codifying how people should be married and therefore how their children can be legitimate children. So it's. I mean, I say that for, like, the higher up in society. For most people, all you need to do is just consent to marriage and that's it. You just say, I marry you, I marry you too, and that's it. But at the top levels of society, it's too easy then for someone to be like, oh, you said you'd marry me, but that was saying in the future. So that's not a real marriage. So this child is illegitimate and that would, you know, cause all sorts of problems. So it's. It's a way of just controlling the wealth and the land. And then later on, the Church realizes they'd quite like to get in on it as well, so they start inventing synods and legatine councils and things. And eventually in the Council of Trent, which obviously I realise is post medieval, that's full Tudor times, but they actively say, no, you have to have a priest there to. For it to be a real marriage.
- [10:08]
Matt Lewis
I find that this is a really interesting one because I think that we are so used to the concept of marriage as it stands today, as this big public production, that we have a difficult time getting in the heads of people's relationship to the idea in the past. And. And also, I think, to the idea of illegitimacy. Like a big thing that people make a lot of about William the Conqueror, for example, is that he was an illegitimate child and they're like, oh, this must have waited on him. And it's like, no, it was normal for the Norman dukes to inherit to their illegitimate children. Because your legitimate wife was some French girl that you married for political reasons.
- [10:47]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Yeah. And the Saxons as well. Absolutely normal.
- [10:51]
Matt Lewis
And nobody really cares that much. And I do think that it is one of these things where as you kind of go forward in time, this becomes codified a lot more. Right. And I suppose also, as we're just kind of hinting at here, like, okay, so we've got a concept of illegitimacy. Is it an actual barrier to inheritance in places in Europe? Because it seems to me that this is sort of like regional variance that we're looking at here.
- [11:19]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Yeah, I definitely think it varies by different areas. I mean, as you say, William the Conqueror is probably the most famous example of this, and he is called William the Bastard. Bastardus in different texts. And what I found really interesting, I had A little nerd out in the Oxford English Dictionary around the word bastard because. Because I kept reading things about it that wasn't quite sure they were true. And what I found fascinating is by the time you get to the 1300s, that word bastardus or bastarda, which is the feminine version, which I think is a very exciting name for possibly a folk rock band, maybe. Bastard.
- [11:58]
Matt Lewis
I was going to say a cat.
- [11:59]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
But, you know, different takes. By the time you get to the 1300s, 1400s, that term is being used across most of Europe. It's not just in England or France, it's the Occitan territories of southern France, it's Portugal, Spain, Italy. But the fact it takes that long suggests that it's taken a while for people to have a kind of accepted idea that you have legitimate and illegitimate unions, and it just didn't matter for a very long time, as you say.
- [12:32]
Matt Lewis
Okay, well, listen, so what makes a bastard a bastard, right? Is it just the fact that your parents are unmarried or is this like, do you need the church to step in and say, hold up, that child is illegitimate? I mean, is it as simple as. As just not having the correct paperwork?
- [12:53]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Well, do they even have paperwork if people can't read? Not much point having paperwork.
- [12:57]
Matt Lewis
Spoiler.
- [12:58]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
No, no, I think the big problem is witnesses. And again, I think it's more of a problem for women even than children. I think children, interestingly, don't seem to carry the stigma as much as we might imagine. In the Middle Ages, it seems like kind of a Tudor thing that people start using bastard to mean negative connotation on a person. Although I should say the term bastard is used to kind of mean inferior. Earlier than that, you get bastard swords, bastard horses, bastard source, even, it turns out, which are kind of adulterated versions of something.
- [13:35]
Matt Lewis
But I think it's going to be fair to say, given the paperwork situation, that probably most of the royal bastards in the Middle Ages, we just don't know that much about them. Right. Like this is one of those lost to the mists of time situations.
- [13:52]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
No, I think it probably is. The ones we know about are probably the ones who were firstly, who had very clear relationships with their parents, their father, normally, which gave them an access to power. And also the ones who were quite talented one way or another, or were really bad, I suppose is the opposite end of the spectrum. But you don't kind of know about the ones who just went and worked in a church, for instance. They're. They're not so interesting. And there were in some cases just Enormous numbers of illegitimate children. It kind of peaks and troughs throughout the Middle Ages. There are so many royal bastards in the 10 hundreds, 11 hundreds. It is extraordinary. And then everyone starts sort of behaving a bit for a while. And then as soon as you get Edwards on the throne, bastardy arises again.
- [14:46]
Matt Lewis
It's pinning it. We're pinning it to the name Edward. That's what, that's what I think.
- [14:50]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
That's the chief trouble. Yes.
- [14:52]
Matt Lewis
Okay, listen, we're gonna. We're gonna zone in on England, right? Because there are a lot of very famous royal bastards of English kings. I think if we're going to have this conversation, we gotta sort of start out with Henry I and his illegitimate son, Robert of Gloucester, because this is possibly one of the most consequential father illegitimate son duos that we have in English history. Right?
- [15:20]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Yeah, I think so. And Henry I is someone who most people probably don't know much about. I would say if they know about him at all, they kind of know he's the father of the empress Matilda. And that's why his son becomes so important, is because Robert of Gloucester steps into the breach on behalf of his half sister Matilda, when the anarchy breaks out between Matilda and Stephen. But he is. Yeah, he's very consequential. He's very competent as well. He's a very good military leader. He's a good tactician. During his father's lifetime, his father's asking him for his advice and has a clearly quite a good personal relationship with him. And he seems to have been brought up within the royal household as well. So it's which you find quite often, I feel like in these cases is you quite often have illegitimate children growing up alongside their half siblings in a way that actually, you see in loads of noble families as well, that people grow up with half siblings, step siblings, cousins. Like families are in every way, I feel like, has blended in the past as they are today.
- [16:27]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, And I think that that is a really important point. There is this tendency to only look at the legitimate children. And we understand why, you know, that's a lot of the time how inheritance plays out. But the actuality of things is often more complex. And you do see these, you know, blended families. I. I think, you know, it's one of those things where we always pretend that we're the first generation that invented having sex. It's the same thing with. We're the first generation that invented having children out of wedlock. Right. This is a normal thing to have around. But, yeah, having said that I don't think that Robert of Gloucester is kind of like your ordinary illegitimate child, because he really ends up rising up the ranks as a result of what happens with the White Ship disaster. Right.
- [17:14]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Yeah, I would say so. When the White Ship disaster happens, Robert is probably about 20, because he seems to have been the eldest of Henry I's illegitimate children. So I think there's a kind of good fortune for Robert in that he is on the scene, he has a relationship with his father and he is the right age to be trusted with extra responsibility when the White Ship disaster happens and suddenly there is no obvious male heir to the throne. Although, interestingly, when Henry I names Matilda as his heir and he makes all of the lords and bishops come and give fealty to her in the 1120s, Robert has a falling out with Matilda's cousin, his cousin as well, I suppose, Stephen, over who should get precedent whether it should be Robert as the illegitimate half brother or if it should be Stephen as the legitimate cousin. So that immediately, like, signals something about those men and the type of men they are, but also about how important Robert is. Even then, there isn't a question, it seems, of him inheriting. It seems like even at this point, being illegitimate is seen as probably being a barrier to inheriting. Probably. But it's. Yeah, it's very revealing, I think, that he chooses to make a point of like, no, I should go first, I should bend down first.
- [18:36]
Matt Lewis
I mean, I like that he is at least doing what I consider to be the right thing, because I'm. I'm team Matilda, like, all right. Thinking individuals always, obviously. And he does end up being a really staunch ally of Matilda's. You've already hinted at this. Can you talk a little bit about how he did serve her and how that kind of falls apart when he dies?
- [19:03]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Yeah. The main way he serves her is he's the military might, because that's Matilda's big problem is female rule. She can do in so many ways. She's an experienced politician because she's been living in the Holy Roman Empire for years, seeing how that works. She has existing relationships with the Pope, she understands the importance of the Church, she speaks multiple languages. She's got this connection by marrying the Duke of Anjou or the Count of Anjou to various different French territories as well. So in all of the kind of logistical ways, she's a great ruler, but she can't fight. And that's like her big downfall as a woman. So she really relies on her husband, Geoffrey of Anjou, who's a bit fickle and especially her brother Robert of Gloucester to fight for her. And that's why we see during the anarchy that Matilda's like main area of power is the west country, because that's Robert of Gloucester fosters area, that's his part of the world, where from Bristol Castle he is basically dominant. Although interestingly, there's actually quite a few other illegitimate children knocking around the west country as well. So possibly it's like this little lovely enclave of little half siblings all hanging out and being like, yay, Matilda.
- [20:19]
Matt Lewis
Ah, I do love the west country, you know, what can I say?
- [20:23]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Me too. That's where I'm from.
- [20:24]
Matt Lewis
Yay.
- [20:25]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Good vibes.
- [20:25]
Matt Lewis
Good vibes. Yeah.
- [20:27]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Yes. So essentially that's Robert's role and I think Matilda's kind of lucky and unlucky in that she has a son who kind of takes over her claim to the English throne, but he's too young at the time Robert dies to immediately step up and kind of take over Robert's position as military leader. So there's this period of years after Robert dies when there just isn't a kind of military presence that Matilda can rely on. So she's left effectively on the continent, kind of trying to, you know, influence things from a distance, which just doesn't work. And I think she recognizes that female power isn't going to be capable of becoming female queenship at this point in English history because she then pretty much hands over the claim to the throne to her son who becomes Henry ii.
- [21:19]
Matt Lewis
I mean, she does play a blinder with that one, to be fair. You know, sometimes you have to know when people are just not going to play the game. So, you know, in the end she wins. We have to say that, I think.
- [21:30]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Yeah.
- [21:31]
Matt Lewis
Can we talk a little bit about Henry the First's other illegitimate kid, his daughter Sybil. Yes, because she is a really interesting one because, you know, we're talking about how, oh, there are these barriers to whether or not you can have power when you're illegitimate. This girl marries Alexander of Scotland. Right. Like this is an incredible come up for someone who is, is not legitimate.
- [21:56]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Yeah. She marries a king. It's amazing. And that's, it's also, it's really significant in Anglo Scottish relations and Norman Scottish relations because it's the first time a king of Scotland is sort of acknowledging that the Norman ruling dynasty have taken control of England by marrying into it, by marrying Sybil, whose mother seems to have been a woman with whom Henry I had quite a long term relationship and A number of children who's called Sybil Corbett, which is just a very pleasantly northern sounding name, I feel like Sybil Corbett or Sibyl Courbet, possibly. It was probably French that. Yeah. So Sybil is one of a number of illegitimate children born to Sybil and Henry. And clearly she is, you know, she must be quite well considered by him for the fact that she then marries a king. And there doesn't seem to be any comment at the time about, you know, oh, this is really bad for the King of Scotland to be marrying this lowly illegitimate woman. Like, she's the child of a king, she has the royal blood, that's the key. And she becomes extremely influential in. In Scottish, particularly religious matters. Her and her husband found Scone Abbey, you know, this ancient site where all the kings of Scotland have been inaugurated. They found the abbey there. She seems to mediate between her husband and the church at various points. And even though they never have any children, her and Alexander, she continues to be very influential up to her death, it seems like. So, yeah, a really important woman. And actually there's a few instances, I think, of other illegitimate children and daughters particularly marrying into ruling families. Like King John's daughter Joan marries a Welsh prince as a way of kind of. And then she becomes a hugely important mediator between Wales and England. So it's definitely a really sensible thing to do, I think, is to put an illegitimate daughter into that position as queen. Yeah.
- [23:56]
Matt Lewis
Because I was going to ask. We kind of see this happen more commonly with illegitimate girls than illegitimate boys. Right.
- [24:04]
Grow Therapy Announcer
Yeah.
- [24:04]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
I think illegitimate sons often end up in the church, partly because that's safer. If you're in the church, you're not going to be contesting. In theory, there might be someone we talk about who very much does not fit this. But in theory, once you're in the church, that's it. You shouldn't have temporal power in the same way you shouldn't be able to become king. So it's a way of saying, oh, this person is very important. And also they are contained, they have a religious position of power and that is it.
- [24:36]
Matt Lewis
Well, look at this, Lauren. What a perfect segue you have set us up for. Because we're gonna have to talk about him. Who is the man, the myth, the legend? Jeffrey Plantagenet.
- [24:49]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Your boy, Jeff. That is my boy, Jeffy P. Yeah. He's an interesting one, isn't he? Again, he's someone who I feel like has sort of been forgotten about a bit. Actually, quite a few of Henry II's illegitimate children are interesting and they've kind of understandably, perhaps paled into insignificance behind Henry II's legitimate children who spend the entire time fighting him and trying to wrestle bits of the king, in a way. Whereas Geoffrey Plantagenet, who seems to have been Henry II's eldest child, illegitimate or otherwise, born when Henry II is just a teenager, he goes on to be incredibly loyal to his father. Like an absolute stalwart of Henry II throughout all of the turmoil that happens with the Angevin dynasty over the next decades, he is the one who defends his father to the nth degree, to the extent that Henry II says to him, it's my other children are the real bastards. You're the only true child I have. And I think also they're really similar, you see, with some of Geoffrey's later behaviour. Like him and his father, they're quite charismatic, but they're incredibly stubborn. Like stubborn to the point of making enemies rather than admit they're wrong. And that's, that's like a fundamental of Geoffrey's personality. But again, Henry tries to do the clever thing and put Geoffrey into the church. He puts him into minor orders as a deacon. But the sneaky thing with old Geoffrey is that if you're in minor orders, you can still technically come out of them again. So he never gets ordained as a full priest while his father is alive because he's like, well, if I'm not a full priest, then I could. I could perhaps come back and maybe I could claim the throne. Could happen. And I think that is a very real possible threat.
- [27:01]
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- [28:00]
Matt Lewis
Land a Viking longship on island shores, scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt and avoid the poisoner's cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes Of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series, Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and. And great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hits. There are new episodes every week.
- [28:59]
Well, I think that certainly Richard the First would agree with you. Right. Because, you know, we've got. We got Jeffrey kind of bopping along, you know, and like that, and that's fine, you know, but then eventually we get Richard the First come to the throne and this is a whole different ball game. Right. And he approaches the matter of his brother, I think, slightly differently.
- [29:23]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Oh, yeah, he hates him, I would say Richard the First, again, deeply unpleasant human being. Really not a nice guy.
- [29:31]
Matt Lewis
I hate him. I really don't like him, unfortunately. Yeah, don't let Eleanor of Aquitaine hear me say that. I know he's her favorite, but that's,
- [29:38]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
like, the only thing in his favour as far as I'm concerned. Yeah. Richard I definitely thinks that Geoffrey might try and take the throne. So one of his early act, and allegedly this is following on from Henry II on his deathbed while Geoffrey is, you know, lent over him, swatting away flies that are buzzing around his imminent corpse. Allegedly, Henry II had said, oh, I want Geoffrey to become Archbishop of York. But certainly as soon as Richard I becomes king, he's like, right, you're archbishop, then That's. That's you taken care of. You have to become a priest now. That's just definitely have to be a priest before you can be Archbishop of York, and then I'll leave you alone. And it's interesting that at that point, Geoffrey kind of goes along with it, even though he definitely doesn't like Richard. He doesn't like Richard's chief advisors. He does sort of accept it, which I suspect is a kind of probably out of the memory of their father. I think it's more than anything that he does that out of respect for his father and maybe also that he recognises he can have a lot of power.
- [30:40]
Matt Lewis
Well, I think it's an interesting one because to me, the move suggests that Richard is at least stressed. Right. Richard is not comfortable, I think, with the person of Geoffrey, or he wouldn't be doing all this. Right. It's an awful lot to be pushing forward someone for Archbishop of York, which is not an inconsiderable. I mean, I would say it's probably the second most important religious office in England after Archbishop of Canterbury. So it's a really significant role. So on the one hand, it is very difficult to say no, but I do think that this is about attempting to sort of, like, cork his teeth, as it were.
- [31:20]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Yeah, I think it's exactly that. I think he's trying to undercut him, and then it kind of comes back to bite him on the bum. Because Geoffrey spends pretty much the rest of his own life, which is longer than Richard's, just excommunicating anyone who annoys him, which I've got a lot of time for if you're gonna be an archbishop.
- [31:39]
Matt Lewis
He's so real for that. He's so real for that. That's exactly what I would do.
- [31:44]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Yeah. He's like, oh, are you an abbess who want planned that? I've got no, excommunicated. Yeah. Over and over again.
- [31:52]
Matt Lewis
The current church could learn a thing or two.
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Carvana Customer
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- [31:54]
Matt Lewis
I'm like, let's go make with it.
- [31:57]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Yeah, more excommunication. That's what we need. But, yeah, he wields it constantly, but
- [32:04]
Matt Lewis
he's also kind of an important guy while Richard is away on crusade and also just. Can I just be so real? I get really frustrated when everyone's like, oh, when Richard is away on crusade and like, huh. And then he was also away being arrested and also just dicking around on the continent, sieging people's castle. You know, it wasn't always crusade. He's also just off being a jerk. Right. And Jeffrey's kind of important at the time. Right. Which is interesting because he does end up beefing technical term there with some of Richard's other regions that he's left in place. Like, in particular, William Longshot. Right.
- [32:44]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Yeah, exactly that. There's a. I mean, so many of the things in the period of the Angevins, I feel like you can. You can just put yourself into that scene in a film. And one of them is that when Richard goes away on his jolly to the Holy Land, William Longsholm is left behind as Justicia with another person, incidentally, the Bishop of Durham, who Geoffrey hates. He hates them both. And William Longchamp says to Geoffrey, all right, yeah, you can. You can be the Archbishop of York, obviously, you can come. Come back to England from Normandy where you've been living, and exercise your power here. But I really think it's important that you don't just show your allegiance to Richard, but also you swear allegiance to me as his Justicia. And you'll never guess what Geoffrey does. He says, no. He says, absolutely not. He probably tries to excommunicate William at that point. He immediately, like, runs into hiding at a church in Dover, where William Longchamp's main men surround the church, wait a few days, and then. I mean, I don't know if they were aiming actively to do a kind of Thomas Beckett cosplay, but it's. That's effectively what happens, is they burst in and seize Geoffrey at the altar, where he's doing mass, and grab him by the legs and sort of, like drag him down the steps of the altar, banging his head on the steps as he goes to get him out and put him in prison, which Geoffrey doesn't take kindly to and definitely milks for all it's worth once he is surrounded by other people who might like him again. And keeps making the point that William Longchamp, you know, he's so evil, he's so wicked. Look what he did. He dragged me out of sanctuary. Can this be the person you want in control of government? And he manages through kind of force of willpower, really, to. And a kind of a spirit of vengeance, I suspect, to unite all of the people who he one time hated against William Longchamp, to, like, just drive him out of the kingdom effectively. So, I mean, you don't want to annoy Jeffrey. I would say that's the. The long and short of it. He will excommunicate you.
- [34:59]
Matt Lewis
He's played a blinder here, though. I think that, in a way, I almost read it as him goading them to come and. And beck at him. Right.
- [35:06]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
And I. Oh, I absolutely think so.
- [35:09]
Matt Lewis
It's a very effective piece of sort of political playmaking.
- [35:13]
SoFi Mortgage Announcer
Right.
- [35:13]
Matt Lewis
Like, the man is. The man is not stupid. We can definitely say that about Jeffrey Plantagenet.
- [35:19]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
He was probably doing mass every 30 seconds just to be like, when they come in, I am going to be at the altar.
- [35:25]
Matt Lewis
Much smarter than any of his brothers, in my opinion. I've really got a lot of time for Jeffrey. You know, it's a shame about it all, but we've got another bastard in the mix, though. I know we've just been talking about William Longchamp, but we have to talk about William Longsword. There's a lot of Longs kicking about the place. Can you tell us a little bit about him?
- [35:44]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Yeah, I find Geoffrey and William Longsword, they're kind of like two sides of a coin. I think that Geoffrey gets a lot of the belligerence and rage that, like, devil's rage of Henry ii. And William Longsaw gets a lot of the charm and competence, I would say. He's like. If you were going to meet one of them, be friends with them, it would be William.
- [36:10]
Matt Lewis
Right.
- [36:11]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Basically, he is. He's from way later in Henry II's life. He's actually a very similar age to Prince John, who's born in the 1160s. And he seems to be one of the only people, and I say this advisedly, the only people in England who actually gets on with John, which is an astonishing achievement. Not coincidentally, he also acts as a diplomat quite often making diplomatic embassies to various different places, which probably helps. And the Longsword name, I looked this up because I was like, why long sword? Why does he get the really good name? Like, it sounds so powerful.
- [36:50]
Matt Lewis
It is a good one.
- [36:51]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
And apparently it's taken from his mother's ancestors. His mother's ancestor was the Duke of Normandy, called Longsword. She is called Ida de Tony.
- [37:02]
SoFi Mortgage Announcer
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- [37:02]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
And it's the de Toney line who have this claim to the. The name Longsword. So it's. Yeah, brilliant. I would call myself that. Lauren Longsword.
- [37:09]
Matt Lewis
Absolutely. And, I mean, so we've got this kind of age thing at play. He's around the age of his brother Jon, another one of our worst kings. But he does stay loyal to Jon during the big crisis that happens in the years between, like, 1213 and 1216. Right. The Magna Carta is imminent years. Yeah, we call him.
- [37:32]
Carvana Customer
Yeah.
- [37:33]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Yeah. He's really important. And again, just at every instance, it feels like he's the voice of reason. He's the one who's kind of appealing to the very tiny shard of John. That is a better nature. And the two of them seem to have got on really well, like they were. They gambled together. There's payments and gifts and things from John to his brother. So probably that's partly why William likes him, is he gets presents and isn't starved to death in a castle or anything like some of John's other friends. But, yeah, so he's. William is there when John submits to the Pope. He's there at the Battle of Bouvines and actually is sensible enough to say, I don't think we should have this terrible battle. Oh, we are. All right, fine, I'll fight anyway. And he gets taken prisoner after being, like, beaten off his Horse by a bishop. Standard medieval bishop behavior there.
- [38:23]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, obviously. Yes.
- [38:26]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
And then again, he is, it seems he is at the signing of the ceiling of Magna Carta because there's a reference to him to William advising John that he should grant Magna Carta. So it really seems like he is, yeah, he's this kind of lone good person in this period of history, like lone person who really seems to be trying to make the best of things.
- [38:52]
Matt Lewis
There's got to be one. I mean, dear Lord, because the rest of these guys are just straight up trash. But I mean, he, he kind of keeps going in terms of his mediating influence within the family. Right. Because he still also has a bit of influence at the point when we are to Henry iii. But Henry III is only, only a tiny little baby, you know. And you know, we've got William Marshal and we've got William Longsword who are sitting here kind of doing the right thing, right?
- [39:23]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Yeah, I think so. And I think Longsword maybe has been a bit unfairly forgotten. William Marshal, man, that guy, like he just. Any good thing that happened, he claimed it was his. But yeah, William Longsword was there too. He was fighting, literally fighting the fights for different people. There was a little blip, admittedly, where he kind of went over to Louis of France because I, I think he was like, well, Louis seems slightly better than John or his odd child. But then he went back so, you know, can't hold it against him. And yeah, he's one of the leading voices who is saying we need a form of government based on a council. That is the true form of government is having a king's council around him and holding him accountable. And he says that very consistently even whilst he is doing the classic noble thing of besieging other people because he wants their castle.
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- [41:28]
Matt Lewis
Yeah, listen, it's good to have some values, but it's even better if the person with the values is the king and maybe not you. I think that's a.
- [41:37]
SoFi Mortgage Announcer
That.
- [41:37]
Matt Lewis
That's a variable set of ideas, right? At this point, I think we gotta have to. We're gonna have to go to the War of the Roses, Lauren, because I feel like this is. What a time to be a bastard, right? I think that we have a lot of super prominent bastards at play in the War of the Roses. I mean, do you think that's just because we've got such a death toll at the point in time that it's like, it's time to shine? If you're illegitimate, right, you can kind of come out of the woodwork because we're running out of children.
- [42:11]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
I think it is a bit that, like, certainly Lancaster, the House of Lancaster in the early 1400s, there are four sons, very capable sons, who are available to potentially inherit the throne. And they all die young, which is incredible bad luck. So I think that's part of it. I think also by this point in time, it's become so important to have royal blood. This is the era when you first start really seeing the brothers of kings insisting that they should be called a prince and not a duke. This idea that they're, you know, there's something a little bit magical or sacred about their bloodline. And I think that carries over into illegitimacy as well. And it's interesting because there's such a. Like a double standard going on in the 15th century. I feel like that, on the one hand, illegitimate children and illegitimate lines are very much accepted. And for instance, the Beaufort family, even though they are 100% illegitimate, could not be more illegitimate. They still eventually managed to get an heir on the throne in Henry Tudor at the end of the wars of the Roses. And then on the other hand, you have people, mainly Richard III and the Duke of Clarence, who are using illegitimacy as a way to claim that that should be a bar to having the throne. That if you're not a legitimate member of the Yorkist family, you should not have the throne. So there's some really confused ideas around at this time. I feel like, well, can we talk
- [43:51]
Matt Lewis
a bit about Richard iii? Matt's not here, so he can't get mad at me. Okay? But fundamentally, right, there is this idea, so that Richard III says, the princes who end up getting put in the tower, these are bastards. Okay. Do you think he is technically right, or is this just, like, a pretty good pretext to, like, Kidnap his nephews and put him in a tower, right?
- [44:18]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Yeah, 100%. It's a pretext to kidnap his nephews and put them in the tower, then take their throne. But I do think it is possible that they were illegitimate by the legal standards of the time, because I think. I think that. And this is partly why people accept it at the time, I think that Edward IV was sufficiently known to be a philanderer and probably to have tried to seduce women by promising marriage with them when he didn't really intend to marry them at all, that it was very believable that he would have done that with Elizabeth Woodville and somehow her and her family just managed to maneuver it so that he couldn't get out of it in the end. But also, I would say that throughout the wars of the Roses, people attack women by saying that in some way they are sexually misbehaving. Like almost every powerful woman of the wars of the Roses is faced with that slander. And it doesn't always stick in quite the same way. It does. And I just. I feel like probably even if it were true that these children were legally illegitimate, I feel like there's been enough done by Edward IV in his lifetime to assert their legitimacy, that people kind of accepted that they were royally legitimate, if not maritally legitimate. You know, he'd. He'd had his queen have a public coronation, his children had publicly been invested, and there'd been great big court celebrations and ceremonials and things. One of the princes in the tower was already married, the other one had been acting as Prince of Wales for years. Like, everything public that could be done by Edward IV to assert these children being legitimate had been done. And I think that had been accepted. I think that was part of what was very shocking, was people could see, oh, okay, yeah, well, maybe that. Yeah, maybe there is a bit of a question mark about whether these are truly legally royal children. But also, we all were colluding with the idea they were, for the past, however long, 15 years. So, yeah, I don't think it was enough of an argument to prevent the princes in the tower being kings. I don't think, legally it was enough of an argument.
- [46:35]
Matt Lewis
Like, I don't love it as an argument, because, as you say, it does just kind of, you know, hinge on calling a woman who isn't particularly wealthy a bit of a slag, which is not my favorite thing, you know, so. And also, look, I mean, two things can be true, I suppose, is one thing about this.
- [46:54]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Yeah. I feel like we should also Remember that Richard III and his brother Clarence both said their mother had had an and that Edward was the result of that affair. So, like, we're talking about a family that really loves just laying this stuff out to undermine each other.
- [47:09]
Matt Lewis
Little bit of a sidetrack, you know, side quest here. Your good friend and mine, Perkin Warbeck. Right. There are some people who say that Perkin Warbeck might have been one of Edward IV's several many bastards. What do you think about this as an idea?
- [47:29]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
I think there is literally no evidence for it, so I think it's an interesting idea. I think it's a fun bit of counterfactual history. I cannot see that there is evidence for it. From everything I have read from this era and interestingly from memory, when Perkin Warbeck kind of first appears on the scene and people are going, oh, you look a bit like so and so, they say, Richard, they say, oh, could you be related? Could you be one of Richard's bastards? And then they kind of move on from that and they're like, oh, could you be the Earl of Warwick? And then they go, oh, could you be this other one? Actually, could you be Richard from the Tower? And it is just that he looks a bit like the Yorkist family, which presumably means he's tall and either blonde or red haired and a bit good looking. Like that's sort of it. Unfortunately, as much as I would really like to think that the princes in the Tower did not both die in there and that these, these adolescent boys were able to live their lives, I think that they were both dead by the end of the summer 1483. And I think Perkin Warbeck was just a Dutch boy who was colluded into this giant fraud and paid a huge price for it in the end.
- [48:44]
Matt Lewis
Listen, this is a safe space, Lauren, I couldn't agree with you more. You know, it's fine. You've come to the right place to have the correct opinion. Thank you very much.
- [48:55]
Carvana Customer
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- [48:56]
Matt Lewis
But we, we do know, okay, we've got a legit, A legit bastard. That's a fun way of thinking about it, I guess. But we know a dedicated bonafide bastard. We've got Edward IV's bastard, Arthur Plantagenet, and he kind of goes on to influence at the court of Henry vii. Right. So like, how does he manage this given the fact that he could almost be a, a threat? Right, like, is that kind of like unusual to do? Especially considering that we've got a Lancastrian offshoot on the throne?
- [49:33]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Yeah, first of All I have to say, I would like a T shirt that says Bonafide Bastard, because that would be amazing.
- [49:39]
Matt Lewis
That would be good.
- [49:40]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
And so, merchandise, please. Yeah, Arthur's really interesting because he's basically. He's kind of resurrecting the Robert of Gloucester type style of bastardy that hasn't actually been around for quite a long time. Mostly illegitimate children have sort of just been kind of in the background for a long time. And just to give an example of how Edward IV's illegitimate children were accepted as a kind of a contrast, maybe with the princes in the Tower, there is a daughter of his called Grace, who is still serving Elizabeth Woodville, Sir Edward IV's widow. He is. She is literally at Elizabeth Woodville's deathbed and burial. She's one of very few people who are there. So these. These children of Edward IV are really, I think, cared for by the Yorkist regime. And, yeah, Arthur is absolutely an example of that. He goes on to serve in the household of Elizabeth of York, who I. What would. She's his half sister. I get really confused once we get into the Yorkist, because, my word, there's 9 million of them. He's called my Lord the Bastard in various accounts. But, yeah, he serves Elizabeth, then he serves Henry vii, then later on he serves Henry viii. He's a big jouster, which obviously Henry VIII flipping loves.
- [50:58]
Matt Lewis
Well, that'll help. Yeah, yeah. Okay.
- [51:00]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
And then eventually he's a vice admiral and a viscount and he's the Deputy of calais, which Richard III's illegitimate son had also been briefly, interestingly. So, yeah, he's a really important figure. I would say, though, that actually the Tudors are not fully Lancastrian. This is my slight take on things, is that there is a real effort, I feel like, particularly on the part of Margaret Beaufort, Henry VII's mother, and Elizabeth of York, his queen. I think they really strive to invest the Yorkists in the Tudor regime, particularly by marrying them into it. So you have a lot of, for instance, Yorkist princesses who marry Lancastrians and their children go on to essentially be the Tudor court. And I think that's a really important policy which we kind of see embodied in Henry VIII when he becomes king. There's literal coronation poems where they're like, ah, the twin roses of the wars of the Roses are in King Henry's cheeks. It's like, okay, yeah, he's got pink cheeks, we get it. But yeah, that, like, literally, he is the symbol of it, so it makes sense. He brings together York and Lancaster. And I think Arthur's probably part of that.
- [52:13]
Matt Lewis
I think we kind of got to end at the Tudor court. Right. Because we do have this very important bastard by the time we get there, and that's Henry VII's son, Henry Fitzroy. And I think we could argue that this is probably the most famous of the English royal bastards. And, you know, we're not going to go into him for too long because now we're in the 16th century and that that is not what this program is all about. But I do think he's worth talking about because he really gets a lot of power and influence. And I mean, to me, it kind of seems like this is a result of the fact that we see all of these medieval bastards, you know, being able to wield power, being able to take a part in court life. And so if Henry VIII wants to do that, that kind of seems fine, right?
- [53:02]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Yeah, I think so. I think he is definitely inheriting that medieval idea. He's kind of reasserting it. He's very like Edward iv, I think Henry viii, interestingly, Lancastrian's very chaste, like absolute virgins. The Lancastrians, or almost all the Henrys. Henry V, Henry vi, Henry vii. Not one of them has an illegitimate child, certainly in the time they're married, possibly Henry VII does before that. So, yeah, it's interesting that Henry VIII really jumps back on the old bastardy bandwagon.
- [53:34]
Matt Lewis
Well, he was making up for everybody else, Right. He's like, these guys didn't do it, so I'm gonna have to really make up for lost time.
- [53:40]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Right, yes. And I. I mean, Henry Fitzroy is one of those absolute what ifs, isn't he? Because he's, again, he seems to have been very capable. He's very well educated. He is. He's given a lot of power that. I mean, maybe it's kind of setting him up to be an heir to the throne, a male heir, because it takes so long for Henry VIII, 8th, to have a legitimate living male heir. But also possibly like fitzroy, is given lots of responsibility in the north of England. He's the Warden of the Marches, which is quite a traditional sort of younger son way of doing things. So maybe Henry, even at that point, has in mind this could be the sort of safe half brother of the future heir to the throne. But, yeah, you do kind of wonder if Jane Seymour had not had a son, and if, Most importantly, if Fitzroy had not died in 1536, what could have happened? What might he have been? King Henry ix. I think it is Possible.
- [54:42]
Matt Lewis
I really think it is possible because, I mean, fundamentally the way that they were trying to shake things out legally at the time was to pretend that Elizabeth wasn't legitimate either. So it's sort of like, well, if we're, if we're saying that illegitimate children can inherit. Here's one. And lo and behold, it's a boy. Right. You know, which is apparently the only thing English.
- [55:03]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Yeah. And a boy who's old enough. Right. Like, that's the big thing, is he's old enough to be king, whereas even Edward VI is a child when he becomes king in the end.
- [55:13]
Matt Lewis
Lauren, this has been an incredible dash through the illegitimate children of England. You know, the beautiful flower of the roadside here. You know, if we, the flowers of
- [55:27]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
the roadside, the poor illegitimate children, we
- [55:30]
Matt Lewis
love them, we know them, and frankly, you know, I don't, I can't feel too sorry for any of these people because fundamentally, they're living much nicer lives than the average peasant. So, you know, life's tough. What can I say?
- [55:41]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Yeah, absolutely. Don't live in the Middle Ages if you want a good time.
- [55:45]
Matt Lewis
That, that is a rule of thumb that I try to live by. Yes, absolutely. Lauren, thank you so much for coming by. What a treat. What a romp to talk about bastardry with you.
- [55:58]
Dr. Eleanor Yannicka
Oh, well, thank you for, for having me. Happy to discuss bastards at any moment.
- [56:06]
Matt Lewis
Thank you so much once again to Lauren for joining me. And thank you for listening to Gone Medieval from History hit. If you were interested in some of the top topics we mentioned in this episode, you might want to go back and check out our past episodes on the Anarchy and of course, Matt's favorite, the Princes in the Tower. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award winning original TV documentaries, including my recent film the Trials of Joan of Arc and ad free podcasts by signing up@historyhit.com subscription. You can follow Gone Medieval on Spotify where you can leave us comments and suggestions or wherever you get your podcasts and tell all your friends and family that you've gone medieval. Until next time,
- [57:05]
Carvana Customer
Foreign.
- [57:11]
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