Lena Waithe

Summary

Good Hang with Amy Poehler — Episode Summary: Lena Waithe (August 4, 2026)

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Episode Overview

This lively episode of Good Hang with Amy Poehler features Emmy-winning writer, producer, and actor Lena Waithe. The conversation explores Lena’s creative journey, her iconic advocacy for Black and queer representation, her enduring love of television, and her reflections on community, collaboration, and authenticity. The discussion is punctuated by warm banter, stories from Lena’s Chicago childhood, insights about working in Hollywood, and her approach to mentorship, style, and living joyfully.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Lena’s Early Inspirations and TV Obsession

• Chicago Roots and TV as Family: Lena describes growing up in Chicago, watching TV communally:

  “My mom and the television… two parent household.” (16:25)

• Influences:
  • 90s sitcoms: Perfect Strangers, The Cosby Show, A Different World, Martin, Living Single, plus Nick at Nite classics.
  • Early fascination with seeing writers’ names in credits, aspiring to write for sitcoms from a young age.

    “I would see names in the credits...I saw that show and I said, I want to be a part of this.” (18:34)

The Value of Ideas and Creative Evolution

• Abundance Over Protectiveness:

  • Lena’s philosophy:

    “If you're afraid that people are gonna steal your ideas, you should have more ideas.” (13:10)

• Unique Artistic Voices:

  “If I tried to write my version of Parks and Rec, it wouldn’t be Parks and Rec...there’s no way to copy and paste an idea.” (13:58)

  • Discusses how creative evolution keeps her art fresh:

    “I want my art to always reflect where I am in my life.” (16:00)

Career Trajectory: From Blockbuster to Breaking Barriers

• Blockbuster Memories:

  • Extensive reminiscing about the ritual and culture of video rental: the adventure of hunting for new releases, Blockbuster parties, transfer to LA for college program, and building film taste through random rentals.

    “It was paradise, okay? A library of film and tv. It was everything.” (21:40)

• Breaking In:

  • Attended Columbia College Chicago, then LA for industry exposure.
  • Early jobs included assistant to Gina Prince-Bythewood, which taught her grace under pressure:

    “Let the work speak for itself. And yeah, just don’t ever lose your cool.” (26:09)

• Casting Breakthrough:

  • Alison Jones (iconic casting director) recognized Lena’s varied TV taste and sparked her acting career (Master of None). Lena originally had no desire to act:

    “My biggest goal is to be a great television writer. That’s really all I ever wanted to be.” (27:49)

  • Her candidness and personal story led Aziz Ansari and Alan Yang to co-create “Thanksgiving,” an episode inspired by Lena’s own coming out.

The “Thanksgiving” Episode & Making History

• Writing from Life and Vulnerability:
  • Lena’s Emmy-winning episode was inspired by her real coming out story.
  • Explored race, sexuality, and family with nuance, highlighting cultural differences (“what will the neighbors think”) and the universality of family struggle.
  • Angela Bassett cast as her mother was a dream come true.
  • Honored Black women TV pioneers like Debbie Allen and Yvette Lee Bowser in her historic Emmy speech.

    “First black woman ever being outstanding writing comedy series...I wanted it to be a moment for the queer community as well.” (33:42-38:18)

Leadership, Mentorship, and Style

• On Leadership:

  • Lena admires strong, empathetic leaders (like Spielberg):

    “He’s a giant that doesn’t make you feel small.” (42:26)

  • Lena prefers to “curate” rather than control:

    “I want to sort of curate the experience. Experience more so than control it, which is the same thing. Okay, got it. I'm in therapy right now.” (44:15)

• Mentoring & Supporting Others:

  • Lena’s commitment to mentorship, serving as an engaged Broadway producer on “Cats: The Jellicle Ball,” and championing theater that brings people together:

    “How to get people off their phones and into a room together...might be the only way for us to make it through the next few years.” (07:01)

• Personal Style:

  • Lena’s style as an extension of identity:

    “I want to feel on the outside how I feel on the inside.” (55:20)

  • Clothing line, Proximity, celebrates queer Black women designers, and the freedom in not dressing under the male gaze.

Reflections on Longevity and Representation

• The Chi and Chicago:

  • Pride in completing eight seasons; compared with Parks and Rec and Mary Tyler Moore Show.
  • The show as a love letter to Chicago and how invested the city’s audience is in the characters’ lives.

• Views on Relationships and Therapy:

  • Enthusiastic recommendations for Couples Therapy (Showtime):

    “Everybody should be watching couples therapy whether you're in a relationship or not.” (66:49)

  • Discusses how therapy and facing boredom, contentment, and vulnerability are key to real relationships.

Pop Culture, Joy, and Living in the Moment

• Music & Culture:
  • Life-changing concerts: Prince (thanks to her mother) and Whitney Houston.
  • Tribute to the importance of community in ballroom culture, as seen in Broadway’s Cats: The Jellicle Ball and documentaries like Paris is Burning.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Mentorship and Community:

  “You are an artist who really loves other artists...never forgetting that you're a fan and a student at the same time.” — Amy Poehler to Lena Waithe (61:54)

• On Being at Ease:

  “She’s so at ease with herself that it puts you at ease.” — Bill Rauch about Lena (09:14)

• On Style and Identity:

  “My queerness does lend itself to my style...I don’t live under the male gaze.” — Lena (57:24)

• On Breaking New Ground:

  “When the Academy said, no, you’re the first African American woman to ever be nominated for outstanding writing in a comedy series for the Primetime Emmy award. I was like, oh. Huh. Okay. And I think that just. It brought a different level of weight to it.” (38:17)

• On Therapy and Vulnerability:

  “Vulnerability is a strength, and a lot of people want to protect that...truth does no harm.” (67:22)

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Important Timestamps

• 06:22: How Lena became a Broadway producer on Cats: The Jellicle Ball.
• 13:10: “Steal your ideas” philosophy & artistic abundance.
• 16:20: Lena’s TV obsession and growing up with 90s sitcoms.
• 18:34: Early inspiration to write for television.
• 21:21: Blockbuster nostalgia.
• 26:07: Lessons from Gina Prince-Bythewood on leadership.
• 27:49: Lena’s pivot from purely writing to acting.
• 33:41: Behind-the-scenes of the Emmy-winning “Thanksgiving” episode.
• 42:26: Experience working with Steven Spielberg.
• 45:49: The longevity of The Chi and TV show seasons.
• 51:45: Prince concert story and her mother’s musical influence.
• 55:20: Lena’s approach to style and new clothing line.
• 58:30: Involvement in Jellicle Ball and the importance of ballroom culture.
• 62:14: Who Lena loves to see on the dance floor.
• 65:03: Pop culture recommendations, including Couples Therapy.
• 67:22: Therapy insights and the importance of vulnerability.

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Final Recommendations by Lena

• TV: Couples Therapy (Showtime) — “Everybody should be watching.” (66:49)
• Music: Tim's (Tems), Lauryn Hill (especially Unplugged), Prince, Whitney Houston.
• Live Events: Value communal experiences—go to live theater and concerts.
• Style: Celebrate your own comfort and identity.

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Tone & Atmosphere

• Open, affirming, and joyfully self-deprecating.
• Laughter, nostalgia, and insightful candor throughout.
• Fluid interchange between celebration of the past, real talk on the present, and optimism for creative futures.

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Summary:
This conversation is a heartening celebration of Lena Waithe’s journey—her reverence for her mentors, artistic courage, foundational love of TV, commitment to authentic storytelling, and her role as a tastemaker, amplifier, and mentor in multiple creative spaces. Whether reminiscing about Blockbuster, dissecting iconic sitcoms, or encouraging vulnerability in relationships, Lena’s perspective is always expansive, humane, and distinctly her own.

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For new listeners:
This episode provides a captivating portrait of Lena Waithe’s life, work, and values—an essential listen for anyone interested in storytelling, representation, and the power of creative community.

Transcript

[Amy Poehler]

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[Lena Waithe]

Hi, Bill.

[Amy Poehler]

Hi, Jaelyn. Nice to meet you. By the way, congratulations, Tony winners.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

That did happen.

[Bill Rauch]

Thank you.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

Thank you.

[Amy Poehler]

Before we talk about our guests, just talk me through the evening of the Tonys, which is my absolute favorite award show.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

Yeah, it was very surreal. I was there with my mother and my partner, and me and Bill sat by each other, and we had to keep playing musical chairs because we. Bill, had family, I had family, and we wanted to, like, share the time that we sat by them during the award show and loved it.

[Amy Poehler]

Wait, hold on.

[Lena Waithe]

Let's.

[Amy Poehler]

I'm going to pause right there. Were making sure that you gave everyone in your family enough time.

[Lena Waithe]

Well, yeah, absolutely.

[Amy Poehler]

We need to talk. This is why you can't bring family to award shows. Well, for those people that haven't had the pleasure of coming to Broadway and seeing Angelica Ball, can you just explain what it is?

[Bill Rauch]

It is Andrew Lloyd Webber's musical Cats, set in the ballroom scene that grew out of Harlem. And so our Cats are not cats. They're human beings competing in a competitive ball. And I have never been part of a project in my whole life that more people love. Like, whatever your age, whatever your relationship to ballroom, whatever your relationship to Andrew Lloyd Webber's musical, people who love it, people who think they hate it, everybody has just an overwhelmingly positive experience at the Jellicoe Ball.

[Amy Poehler]

And, Jaylen, can you explain when you say ballroom, what that means?

[Jaelyn Levinston]

Yeah, so. So ballroom is an underground queer culture that really started in New York around 1970. 71. 72. And really the main architect at the very beginning was a powerful, beautiful woman named Crystal labeija, who was woman of color, who had felt rejected by the queer pageant scene and left that scene to start what we know to be ballroom. And when I say ballroom as a culture, much like hip hop, it has multiple elements. So ballroom is both an artistic way of expressing oneself. It is competition, it is vogue. It is all of those kind of aesthetic things that we understand about the craft, but it's also a chosen family structure that's been organized since 1972. And this structure is centered around the house and the house mother and the house father, and really springs out of a need for young queer kids who needed family at a very specific point, and they are coming to themselves to catch them when maybe their biological families were not able to do so.

[Amy Poehler]

It's such a great transition into Lena Waithe because her work in her life is kind of a living example of sharing herself with the world, trying to figure out how to mentor other people, try to make People feel seen and feel included. And, you know, as a black queer woman, she is, like, breaking barriers everywhere she goes. She's the first here, she's the first there. She's, like, supporting and giving her voice to all different kinds of projects. And she is a producer on your show.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

That's right.

[Amy Poehler]

How did that come to be?

[Bill Rauch]

She saw it when we did it downtown. She saw the Off Broadway production, and she flipped over it, and she brought Cynthia Erivo to see it. And she just let us know, if this thing can happen on Broadway, I want to be part of it. I want to be part of making it happen. And she was present from one of our first rehearsals in the rehearsal room, right on through previews, right on through the run. She's been an actively engaged producer in a beautiful way.

[Amy Poehler]

What is a producer on Broadway need to do?

[Jaelyn Levinston]

Well, they need to find us some money.

[Amy Poehler]

Exactly.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

That's a big part of it. The art of the commerce. But apart from that, also, Lena is a public figure with a platform and is able to shepherd eyes to issues that she really cares about. And I know one of the things that Lena really cares about in this season in her life is, like, how to get people off their phones and into a room together. And so I'm glad that Katz is a show that she feels is within that mission. I know she's starting to do a lot of theater work herself, but, yeah, letting people know that this kind of getting up out of your couch, leaving your house, and being in a room with strangers, as weird as that kink is, might be the only way for us to make it through the next few years.

[Amy Poehler]

I feel like New York is often, like, leading by example how it feels to be among a lot of people. Right. New York is always bustling. And even just the recent Knicks win is a great example of watching people literally rub shoulders and enjoy something together.

[Bill Rauch]

You can get the high from the Knicks winning every day at Casa Jellicoe Ball. Every day.

[Lena Waithe]

It is that exciting. It is that thrilling.

[Bill Rauch]

It builds community in that direct way.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

Absolutely not untrue.

[Amy Poehler]

And what's Lena like as a person? Because I like to speak well behind people's back. And I found Lena to be really, really, like, charming, curious, kind. What's it been like to get to know her? What kind of person is she?

[Jaelyn Levinston]

She's so dope. She's so cool.

[Amy Poehler]

And this is the thing I'm a little worried about. She's so cool.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

Yeah, she is. That is true.

[Amy Poehler]

Like, I already put on my outfit today, and I look I. Just before I came in, I looked in the mirror and I went, oh, fu. Jesus Christ. Like, she's. You cannot beat. You can't beat. She's just so cool.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

I know, but you're cool too.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, my God. I'm not fishing, but thank you.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

She's also.

[Bill Rauch]

She's so at ease with herself that it. That it puts you at ease. So it's just so fun to hang out with her.

[Amy Poehler]

So we have a thing here where we ask to get a question for our guest. And you guys have been working with Lena. You know her professionally. We're gonna get into a bunch of different things that she does, but is there anything that you think I should ask her? Big, small, silly, important that you'd want to hear her talk about?

[Bill Rauch]

When did you first know in your soul that you were an artist?

[Amy Poehler]

Great. It's such a theater question. Yeah, that is such a theater question. I love it. Well, let's all get in a circle. Let's ask each other this direct eye

[Lena Waithe]

contact while we give each other back

[Bill Rauch]

robes in the circle.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

Yep.

[Amy Poehler]

Love it.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

One is like, I've also seen Lena a lot on the dance floor, and, you know, however cool she is in Life, she is 100 times cooler on the dance floor. And I'm always, like, trying to think about how to maintain coolness on the dance floor. And I would ask her, who does she like to see on the dance floor? Like, when she goes out, she's like, ah, that person's here. I know the party, the dancing is gonna be on 10. So I'll be curious to know what that list is for her.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, these are incredible questions. You guys are such good directors. Well, thank you guys so much for this time. I know Lena will be thrilled that we talked, and it means a lot. Congratulations again on your and on your artistry and the great work that you do and the way that you're putting, like, you said, so much joy into the world.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

Rubber glue, back to you, Amy. You're doing really joyful work, and we need this podcast and this platform in the world right now.

[Lena Waithe]

Absolutely.

[Amy Poehler]

Thanks. Let's just keep trying to do it against the rising tide of nonsense. Thank you both. Pleasure to meet you both.

[Lena Waithe]

Thank you, Amy. We love you, Lena.

[Amy Poehler]

Bye, guys. This episode is brought to you by Subaru. There's something about being on the road that has a way of leading to those unexpectedly memorable little moments. And in the all new 2026 Subaru Hybrid, it's like the destination isn't even important. It's the drive, baby. And let me tell you, I'm in that car and I feel like a million bucks. Quiet ride, comfortable. Love my Subaru. Can't get enough. With up to 581 miles in the Subaru Forester Hybrid and even more 597 and the Crosstrek Hybrid, you can go further between stops and stay in the moment longer. Visit subaru.com hybrid to learn more. The Subaru Forester Hybrid and Crosstrek Hybrid. Love goes the extra mile.

[Lena Waithe]

Woo hoo hoo.

[Amy Poehler]

I was really, really looking forward to it. Just cause we get to hang out.

[Lena Waithe]

I mean, come on. I know we like to do this when we're not on camera.

[Amy Poehler]

I know.

[Lena Waithe]

That's the cool part.

[Amy Poehler]

Well, it's been. Lena, waithe is here everybody.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

Hi.

[Amy Poehler]

Very exciting. How's your mic?

[Lena Waithe]

Good, good. I'm just like placing it. I don't have a hat on which I was like debating like do I wear a hat? I'm feeling good about the no hat.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah, I liked. I mean Lena, everything you wear is so cool. Like everything you wear hat. You take it off, it looks cool.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

Come on.

[Amy Poehler]

Coolest hat ever.

[Lena Waithe]

This is my own shit right here.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah, I mean it's. It's like I want to get into that actually because it's kind of. I want to talk to you about your, your look, your style, and also just the fact that like you're like my coolest friend. We'll get there. We'll get there. Okay. You're the best. So I heard you say something in another podcast that I love and I've been thinking about it a lot.

[Lena Waithe]

Jesus, who knows.

[Amy Poehler]

No, but I think it was another podcast or TikTok probably.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay, not on there.

[Amy Poehler]

No. But that's where I get all my information.

[Lena Waithe]

You and everybody else.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah, I know, but you said like if you're. You said something that I love, which is if you're afraid that people are gonna steal your ideas, you should have more ideas.

[Lena Waithe]

That is true. I did say that.

[Amy Poehler]

Followed a podcast and it's such a great. I totally agree. Can you tell me what you mean by that?

[Lena Waithe]

Okay, this is a really good way to kick off such a great question because that's why you have a Peabody. Here's the deal. There's this interesting debate that happens where a lot of up and coming writers, if you will, talk about how do I protect my ideas, Should I get them copywritten, Should I reg than with the wga. And I always have a very. I guess it's a hot take response which is, I don't believe someone can steal your idea.

[Amy Poehler]

Say more. I love it.

[Lena Waithe]

I just feel like if I tried to write my version of Parks and Rec, it wouldn't be Parks and Rec. It would be something else. Even if we all have the same, like, idea, it's gonna be different because it's coming from two completely different writers. There's no way to copy and paste an idea. And also, artists, I believe, are oftentimes in the same wave. There's a reason why sometimes. You see there's a lot of vampire stuff happening right now. There's a lot of horror going on over here, and it's just because artists are sort of in their silo. They're doing their thing, and then they kind of decide, oh, I'm gonna write this. Or this is very similar to this thing. I just don't buy it.

[Amy Poehler]

Well, what I love about it is, it's like it's the opposite of grasping energy.

[Lena Waithe]

Right.

[Amy Poehler]

Which is like, I have this idea. The idea is so important. It's my one idea. And also, as I've gotten older, I feel like the idea is part of it, but so much of it is people and process, too. Like, an idea can only go so far.

[Lena Waithe]

Right.

[Amy Poehler]

And it's just in thinking about the theme for this pod today, I was thinking about just that, because I feel like that statement kind of defines your career. Like, you. You do so many different things. You produce, you write, you act, you know, you do a podcast, you're in. You're in tv. Like, you have this way of moving through the world creatively that doesn't feel like your last idea was your best idea and that you're grasping too hard on any one thing. Would you say that's true?

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. I think that's really beautifully put. And thank you for saying that. I receive it. I think that. I think you're right. I think people wanna protect what they have. And there have been, like, big cases about people saying, this was stolen from, this was stolen. There's those things out there. But I just sort of feel like I'm always evol as a person, so therefore, the work should be evolving as well. I feel like sometimes you see artists and they just keep kind of doing the same thing, and they're sort of similar. And sometimes that works for people. But I think for me, I want my art to always reflect where I am in my life.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And I want to be in a different place in my life.

[Amy Poehler]

And you're never a snob.

[Lena Waithe]

No.

[Amy Poehler]

But, you know, like, you, like what you like, and you like it passionately. And then you make things. Like you're kind of high, low in what you do and what you make. And also, what I love about it about you is you love tv.

[Lena Waithe]

I'm obsessed with television. Yeah. I mean, I know.

[Amy Poehler]

Cause it raised us.

[Lena Waithe]

It raised us literally. It was like, you know, I say two parent household, my mom and the television.

[Amy Poehler]

I mean, what were you watching when you were young? Like, what was the. On tv?

[Lena Waithe]

You know, it's interesting. Like, I was a kid in the 90s, and I think that was a really interesting time for television. I mean, there's a lot of sitcoms happening.

[Bill Rauch]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

We got Perfect Strangers.

[Bill Rauch]

Yes.

[Lena Waithe]

You got, okay, the Cosby Show. A Different World, obviously. But also you had stuff like Marketing and Living Single and also In Living Color. And also we had Nick at Nite, where we could watch the old shows, like Dick Van Dyke's show, like, you know, obviously the Mary Tyler Moore show, which was.

[Amy Poehler]

Were you watching that, Mary?

[Lena Waithe]

You know what's interesting? I didn't really. It's interesting about, like, certain music you can't hear. Like, when you're young. Jazz doesn't make sense to you.

[Amy Poehler]

Yes.

[Lena Waithe]

You can't hear it. And I think with Mary and especially as I got older and I started to watch Friends at Will and Grace. Will and Grace has a sort of speed to it. And I think with Mary Tyler Moore, it took me a beat because it was a little bit like jazz. It was kind of slow, like. I mean, like, Chuckles Bites the Dust is one punchline. Like, they're like, we're gonna hold. It's like edging for comedy. They're like, we're not giving this to you.

[Amy Poehler]

A lot of people might not know that you produced a Mary Tyler Moore documentary. And you and I talked about this because we were both working on, like, comedic legends. I did one about Lucy and Desi, and Mary Tyler Moore is just this great example, I think, of, like, what you talk about, which is TV that felt like ahead of its time and also just super cozy.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

What did you. When you got to know her and her work, like, more? It's so well said. It's like a sound you have to get used to. Like a music you have to get used to. When did you start to understand her music and what made you want to do that project?

[Lena Waithe]

Well, I think I didn't really understand it until I was in college. I had to sort of watch it. Cause I studied writing and producing and television at Columbia College.

[Amy Poehler]

I did all of that you wanted to be a TV writer at 7?

[Lena Waithe]

Yes, I did.

[Amy Poehler]

How did you know that was a job?

[Lena Waithe]

You're like, Lena. We thought people were just on the TV talking.

[Amy Poehler]

Like there was a veterinarian, an astronaut.

[Lena Waithe]

I know, a fire person. You know, I think I just. I would see names in the credits. And so that's why when I see Susan Fells Hill and Debbie Allen, I knew their names before I knew their faces. And Yvette Lee before she was Yvette Leigh Bowser. And of course, I came to know all these. Thank God. But I just saw that show and I said, I want to be a part of this. And also I was aware that, you know, my mother, my grandmother, my aunt, the neighbors, we would all gather in my grandmother's bedroom because that's where the TV was. And we would just sit and watch tv. And it was very communal. And so that's why I think I knew I wanted to be a part of it. But with Mary, I didn't get it until I was in college and I got the box set on VHS and, like, watched the best episodes and things like that. And I just sort of was fascinated by her as a human being. So I read her memoir, after all, when I was in college. And that's what really kind of sent me down a rabbit hole. It was before you could just, like, Google somebody.

[Amy Poehler]

Totally.

[Lena Waithe]

You had to read about them. And her memoir is so well written, I think it may be out of print. They might have brought it back. But anyway, after all, it was a great memoir where she talks about being an alcoholic, being the daughter of an alcoholic. She talks about losing her son to an accidental suicide, losing her brother to cancer, losing her little sister to a suicide. I mean, she, the woman that turned the world on with her smile, dealt with a lot of dark things in her life. And that, to me, that sort of juxtaposition was really fascinating. I was just fascinated by this person, I think, you know, for what she did for women in comedy. There was something dainty about her, but not precious.

[Amy Poehler]

Yes.

[Lena Waithe]

And I definitely think you're one of the descendants of Mary Tyler Moore in terms of someone else.

[Amy Poehler]

Thanks for saying that. She was really important. In my house, I had a young mom, and my mom used to just love and laugh, love that show and laugh at that show. And it is really interesting. When you're a kid, you're paying attention to what your parents are laughing at.

[Lena Waithe]

Absolutely.

[Amy Poehler]

And. And she, Mary Tyler Moore, was reminded me of my mom. Cause it was like she was like getting More, you know, what is it like getting more flies with honey than, like, she was sweet, but she got her way. And her and Lou Grant, like Nick Offerman and I would talk a lot about how Leslie and Ron had a very similar kind of, like, gruff and, you know. But Mary was like. And she was so, like. Like, you could tell she was genuinely funny. And that ensemble on that show was so funny.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes. And I think that speaks to why you're such a descendant of hers. Because she knows what it is to allow people to shine around her, to not make it all about her, even though it's her show. But she wants everybody to shine.

[Amy Poehler]

You know, Carol Burnett was like that, too. Is like that, too.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Amy Poehler]

Like, she always talks about wanting people to win and succeed.

[Lena Waithe]

You want to give them the scene if you need to.

[Amy Poehler]

I love that you were producing that. And you mentioned about watching it on vhs, and I want to talk about vhs because you used to work at Blockbuster.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes, I did.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay, people. There are going to be kids that don't know.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay.

[Amy Poehler]

There are going to be people listening right now that don't understand.

[Lena Waithe]

Don't make me cry. Don't make me cry. Don't make me cry.

[Amy Poehler]

Don't understand how important Blockbuster was. Well, first of all, what was Blockbuster? Because you were like. It was paradise, okay? It's a paradise.

[Lena Waithe]

A library of film and tv. It was everything. I used to go there all the time. That's where you had to go to watch old stuff, sometimes see new stuff. This is the crazy thing now. You just sit on your couch and hit a button. Then you had to go. You had to go, hope that in the new release wall that they weren't all gone. You had to go up and say, oh, did somebody return? You know what I'm saying? Face Off. Did somebody return? Face Off? No.

[Amy Poehler]

And I remember you go. For you young people listening, you would go. They don't know it was a big date.

[Lena Waithe]

You get your popcorn, get your candy. Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

You'd buy it there.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, you would. Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

And you'd go often with, like, friends or date. And you'd stand in front of a giant wall of titles. Yeah, just the sleeve.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

And you'd bring the sleeve over to the thing and, like, if it was there, it usually meant that they had it, but sometimes they didn't. They were like, we're out.

[Lena Waithe]

Most of the time. They did. It was a popular movie. You coming in late on a Sunday. Like, do y' all have.

[Amy Poehler]

You have Jurassic Park.

[Lena Waithe]

Jurassic Park. You have the Latest. No, I don't. I got the old one. Okay, cool. You're right.

[Amy Poehler]

And then. And then you'd look and you'd want to get Face off and you wouldn't. They wouldn't have it. So you'd be like, what other John Travolta stuff?

[Lena Waithe]

Okay, what else do we have? Like, okay, cool. You got powder. Okay, what's happening? I don't know. Like, it's just, like, the most random. It's how I got my taste. I would just, like, rent things based on the COVID I'm like, I'll rent this all the time.

[Amy Poehler]

Did you have to deal with, like, the Blockbuster guys who, like the. You know, there was like, the mini Quentin Tarantino's of the world who came up, who were, like. Who were like, directors or wanna be, and they wanted to talk to you about film and school. You.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay. Not in Chicago. Like, okay, like in Evanston. They were, like, more so just, like, very obsessed with whatever they were obsessed with. But it was interesting people coming in there, you know, it's like, it. Families. We also get mom saying, like, can my son watch this? And you're like, wow.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

Huh?

[Lena Waithe]

Like, is he into violence and sex? I don't know. I don't know if he should be watching Jungle Fever. I don't know. But no. A lot of parents really were concerned about what the movie was and what was happening. And I just was like, it depends on how you want to raise your children. To be honest with you, I don't want to be a part of this conversation.

[Amy Poehler]

And you got Blockbuster. You were so tight with Blockbuster. You were so good at being a Blockbuster person, at Blockbustering Blockbuster employee. Blockbuster employee. Wait, did you guys party? Did the Blockbuster employees party a lot?

[Lena Waithe]

The one in la? We definitely got into some trouble. Like, when I transferred.

[Amy Poehler]

You got transferred?

[Lena Waithe]

Well, I asked to be transferred. I mean, which is insane. That speaks to who I am. I said, look, I wanna keep this job. Transfer me to the one in la. And they did.

[Amy Poehler]

And they did.

[Lena Waithe]

And it's like that.

[Amy Poehler]

You must have been an awesome employee.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, I was the best.

[Amy Poehler]

Of course.

[Lena Waithe]

I was, like, on top of it. Come on. I'm, like, going through the return bin, making sure it's empty, you know, talking to people about movies, making recommendations. Like, the LA one was popping.

[Amy Poehler]

And then you get to la, because. Why do you want to go to la? Cause you want to be acting and writing and you want to.

[Lena Waithe]

I went there because there's a semester in LA program through Columbia College in Chicago, where they send like, 12 students to go to Los Angeles to be on a Hollywood lot. You're writing spec scripts. People don't do that anymore, where you write a script of a show that already exists to see if you can match the voice. And the crazy thing is, I could never crack Parks and Rec, but I did a 30 rock spec and I did a Modern Family spec. And I love Parks and Rec, but I just could not. I couldn't grab that voice. I just sort of couldn't do it. And not for lack of trying, but what you have to kind of do is sit in your studio apartment and try to, like, come up, like, what's an A story? What's a B story? What's a this? And I was able to kind of like, play with those characters a little bit more on 30 Rock than I kind of couldn't.

[Amy Poehler]

Like, speaking of rhythm. Had, like, a really percussive, very specific, very specific, funny, joke per ratio kind of situation.

[Lena Waithe]

And I knew I had a lot of fun with the Tracy thing. You know what I'm saying? I think my story for him was like, he promised that Obama was gonna be at his birthday party. But, yeah, that got me out to la, like, writing those spec scripts and stuff like that, and being on lots and being an assistant and being an intern.

[Amy Poehler]

Well, then you assisted Gina Prince Blythewood, who is.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes. Bythewood. She said there's no l in it. It's like Python. When I was her assistant for two years, I always help people say her last name is the most intense. Okay. It's like, think about Python and wood and put a B in front of it. Bythewood.

[Amy Poehler]

So you're an assistant for Gina Prince Bythewood.

[Lena Waithe]

There you go.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay. Gina, I love your work.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes. Come on. She's gonna be so happy.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

Come on.

[Lena Waithe]

Love and basketball. Secret Life of Bees.

[Amy Poehler]

Let's go. That's incredible.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes.

[Amy Poehler]

We had Regina Haul on. We had Viola talking about womankind. Oh, come on.

[Lena Waithe]

When is Gina getting here?

[Amy Poehler]

I would love to talk about. She's talking to me.

[Lena Waithe]

Cause she did Children of Blood and Bone.

[Amy Poehler]

What did you learn from her? Like, what did you learn about being a boss from her?

[Lena Waithe]

God, so much. So much.

[Amy Poehler]

She's so talented.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay, so Gina is very cool. And I would watch her navigate certain situation. She would never raise her voice. She would never lose her temper. And I think also it's so funny thinking about Mary Tyler Moore at the top of that documentary. This guy is asking her this very offensive, like, question, like, can a woman have it all? Can A woman be married and have a child and have a career. And the thing is, is that Mary kind of just sits there in the cut and just responds in a way that's so eloquent and beautiful. Gina was a version of that for me in terms of in person, in real time, where people would challenge her authority or would ask her if she really knew what she was doing. And Gina would just never be frazzled by it. She would just sort of be calm, respond, and show up and let the work speak for itself. And so that's what I really learned from her is like, don't lose your temper. Let the work speak for itself. And, yeah, just don't ever lose your cool.

[Amy Poehler]

You talk about Aziz.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes.

[Amy Poehler]

You talk about getting the part in Master of None, which is where most people met you. Like, the world kind of got to know you. But you've mentioned Alison Jones.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, well.

[Amy Poehler]

So Alison Jones. Who is Alison Jones?

[Lena Waithe]

For people who don't know, she's an iconic casting director.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And she's someone who's designed, discovered many talents, and I'm one of them. I give Aziz credit for sure, but he. In a really cool way, when he was casting the what used to be called the Untitled Aziz I'm Sorry project, he said, I want to just meet with people before I read with them. And he said, I want to meet interesting people. And Alison had met with me, you know, like, that year, earlier that year, because she saw something I put on the Internet, which was, like, this pilot presentation which would ultimately become 20s, which I was not in, because, again, no desire to be an actor.

[Amy Poehler]

Why no desire?

[Lena Waithe]

I think because. And it's still my biggest goal is to be a great television writer. Mm. That's really all I ever wanted to be. Obviously. Yes. Started from when I was young. I never thought I wanted to be on the screen. I think I always wanted to be the person writing the words that they said.

[Amy Poehler]

Yes.

[Lena Waithe]

And that was just always what it was. And I admire actors a great deal. I love a great TV star, a great movie star. I just didn't want that pressure that came with it and all that comes with that, because it's a lot. When I wrote the pilot presentation for 20s, it was a. I was writing a thinly veiled version of my twenties and myself and my friends and all that. And so it got a little buzz, and people were talking about it, and I got a call that Alison Jones wanted to meet with me. I didn't even know who she was. I didn't. I was like, why does the casting director want to meet with me? I'm not casting anything. And when I went in, I walked into her office, of course. I walked by the poster for Freaks and Geeks. I walked by the poster for Veep. I walked by the poster for Bridesmaids, and I'm like, ok, this person, she's getting, clearly she knows when a star walks into her office. And so I sat with her and we talked about television and what we like to watch. And what I think what I kind of understood in that moment is that Alison kind of picked up on my taste being very varied and sort of well rounded. We talked about Maude, we talked about Ed Martin, and we talked about all these different things. And she was like, okay. And then she asked me, had I have any desire to be an actor? And I said, no. And she said, okay. Do you mind if I bring you in for some things? And I said, sure. And she did. She brought me in for an episode of Veep, which I completely failed. Cause Julia Louis Dreyfus was in the room and reading with me. And I was like, oh, no, I can't. No, this is not about to happen. I don't know what's going on.

[Amy Poehler]

Were you nervous? You were nervous?

[Lena Waithe]

I didn't know Julia was gonna be in there, right? And so I was like, what?

[Amy Poehler]

Right. You walked in, and then you were

[Lena Waithe]

like, I've since become friends with Julia. I love her. Her voice is in the Mary Tyler Moore doc. Very grateful. She's amazing. Let's work together. I'm like, okay, bet. But what was cool about Alison Jones is that she's like, okay. I'm not worried about that. Bring for the Comeback Season two. And I'm a person that had the Comeback Season one on dvd. Watched it with the director's commentary, listened to Lisa and Michael talk about their process and figuring out value. Cherish. So I was studying. Okay. That series and all that. It was. Cause I knew when I was watching the Comeback, when I was in college in Chicago, still living with my mom, I was like, this is something different and new. And this is crazy that she's coming from Friends and then he's coming from Sex and the City, and they're doing this. Totally understood. Got it. At that moment.

[Amy Poehler]

And the depiction of television writers in that show.

[Lena Waithe]

It's like, how much are y' all talking shit? Like, what's going on? But also for. I'm gonna say Valerie, for Alisa Kudrow. To also give you a version of what an actress can be. An aging actress and what that can look like and how that can feel and the insecurities. It was crazy. So she called me in. At first it was interesting. Cause she was like, do you know what the comeback is? And I said, yeah, yeah, I'm obsessed with it. And she was like, okay, well, they're doing a second. And I said, okay, what? And she was like, you wanna come in? They're doing a press day. There's gonna be a bunch of reporters. I think you'd be cool. So she comes in. Luckily, Lisa nor Michael Patrick came in the room. Thank God.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah. Lesson learned. Don't be in the room.

[Lena Waithe]

Don't let them be in there. So she's put me on tape. I said like a line. And then I got the call that Michael. And Michael was directing that episode. And so he picked me, thank God. And that was actually my TV debut. Me being like one of the reporters for her press conference or whatever. And so me being on that stage was. To me, that was one of those moments. One of those God moments. That was a big moment for me. And I remember I had a pitch from my line of the way I could say it a little bit better. And that's always a tricky thing. Cause I'm like, oh, I don't be that person. I got one line. I got a thought on it. But Michael Patrick King, to his credit, who I love, and he's been a wonderful mentor of mine, he's also kind of gotten on me a little bit too, and he thinks I'm being a little too big for my britches. But he heard it and he said, yeah, that is better. That's better, that's better. And then, of course, later, Alison was talking to Aziz, and he said, who are some interesting people? And she said, oh, I think you should meet Lena Waithe. And that's how I literally went to his home. Literally pulled up to his house, walked in, sat with him and Allen.

[Bill Rauch]

Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

Alan Yang was a writer on Parks and recreated Master of None with the Zeus.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes. I mean, those two. And I just sat with him. And I think I was prepared for that moment. Cause it was weird because I was so used to doing staffing meetings.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah. So for people that don't know, like a staffing meeting, when you're a writer and you're trying to get a job, you kind of do like a general meeting.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. You sit and talk about yourself and you, like. You know, they've often read a script of yours, whether it be a spec or an original, and they talk about that. Talk about your Life. And I just sat in front of them, and I was not unlike this. I was very comfortable in my skin. I had just fallen in love with somebody. I was talking about all kind of stuff, and they just were kind of. We talked, like, 30 minutes and three of us, and then that was it. And then I got a call that he wanted me to come read with him.

[Amy Poehler]

It's so interesting. You're talking about writers taking meetings, because I think for people that are listening, like, I don't think enough people know that writing for television, a lot of it is about, like, will you be a person that people just want in the room?

[Lena Waithe]

That's right. That's right. You gotta be chill. You gotta be laid back. You gotta be a team player. You gotta know when to be quiet. You gotta know when to speak up. You gotta know the hierarchy. You gotta know the politics of the room.

[Amy Poehler]

Have you always known how to do that? Cause you were so naturally good at it, Lena.

[Lena Waithe]

I mean, I know how to play my position, and I've been. I was a staff writer twice before I sold my own show, right? So when you're a staff writer, you really are there just to. You're a helping hand, you know, and you can't. And also, what I learned is that it's not your job to fix the show. And a lot of people come in there going, okay, I got it. I know how to get us that Emmy. You know what I'm saying? It was never that. Even when I did get handed an episode to write, obviously, in season two of master of none, which, um, became the Thanksgiving episode.

[Amy Poehler]

Which one in the Emmy.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, well, I'm very grateful. First black woman ever being outstanding Ryan comedy series. Come on. Aziz knew what was up. You know, I didn't actually want to write that episode because I wanted to keep it separate. I was a lot of people. Oh, yeah, you wrote on mastronaut. I was like, season one. I didn't write on the show at all. Now, mind you. You know how it is when you're in between takes and you're talking. Aziza's like. Aziz is like, oh, I'm putting that in. I'm throwing that in. I'm like, okay, bet. Cool. But with season two and him and Alan asked like, well, how did you come out? And I told them the story. They were like, okay, that's an episode. We gotta do that. And I was like, okay, cool, y', all, I'm gonna go do the Spielberg movie. And Aziz, I'll never forget, he said. He said, if you don't co write this. We're not doing the episode. I just was feeling, like, not overwhelmed, but I was about to go do Ready Player one, and I was gonna be in London, and that was my first feature, and I didn't wanna mess that up. I mean, come on. Come on. Where do you go from there? But he came to London to his credit and a weekend when I was not working, and we sat in the hotel room, his hotel room, and just like two days, cranked it out, knocked it out.

[Amy Poehler]

When you were, like, digging deep for that story, your story, did you have any, like, did you think about what you wanted to keep for yourself and what you wanted to give to the show? It's tricky, right? And I mean, it's such a beautiful episode and it's so. And it really spoke to so many. And Angela.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, my God. Angela Battle. Are you kidding me?

[Amy Poehler]

Come on. Just.

[Lena Waithe]

Aziz, I was like, she's gonna say no. I was like, there's no way she comes to the show.

[Amy Poehler]

You had not met her.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

You didn't.

[Lena Waithe]

Had not met her. Obviously obsessed with her.

[Bill Rauch]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

You know, Aziz and I both are obsessed with Jackson 5. American dream.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

Yes.

[Lena Waithe]

That's why we named the character Katherine. But I just was like, she's not gonna do it, bro. I was like, you're nuts. Melina Matsoukis directed the episode beautifully. Kim Whitley is an episode. What did I wanna keep? I think what I wanted to do was be as vulnerable as I could on the page.

[Bill Rauch]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And I think what was so interesting about it, which I think surprised, they thought that religion was a big part of my story in terms of why my family wasn't really embracing of my sexuality, but it really. It was more about what would the neighbors think, not what would God think. And that was something that was unique. And one of my favorite moments in the episode is not unlike in real life. When I told my mom I was gay, she looked around to see if anybody heard. Like, we had a diner. It's like, these are strangers. Like, who cares what these other people think? And I think that spoke so much to. I don't know who I am. I don't think me being queer makes me more noble, more special, more interesting. And it's just a part of my humanity. And I think that's what I'm really trying to do in that scene is trying to show my mother her own child's humanity.

[Bill Rauch]

Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah. Beautiful. I mean, so beautifully done. So recognized for such, like, it was recognized for such special work. Congratulations on winning that Emmy. Beautiful Speech, too. Your Emmy speech was so good. It was so cool. And relax, Lena. You were up there like. Like, you just, like, no nerves, yo.

[Lena Waithe]

I mean, well, look, it's. It's. You never know. You know how this goes, okay? But you never know. And some people there were. It's interesting, but you're relaxing.

[Amy Poehler]

You relax people.

[Lena Waithe]

Wow. I appreciate that.

[Amy Poehler]

Because you feel relaxed. Is that true? Are you relaxed inside your head? Do you know what I mean?

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I think. I think there was a lot of talk. I was up against two episodes of Atlanta, by the way.

[Amy Poehler]

One.

[Bill Rauch]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

No, and that was like.

[Amy Poehler]

Those were tough years, competitive years. Okay.

[Lena Waithe]

But I'll give it to Donald Glover. We were at the Chateau Marmont. I'll never forget it. The night before. He goes to all these parties the night before. And Donald said to me, with very confidence and cool about him that he has, he said, you're gonna take the writing one. You're gonna take it. And I was like, I don't know, man. I was like, I don't know. He said, no, you got it. He's like, you got it. And Sterling K. Brown was like, you're gonna take it. So I'm getting. People are like, you got it. It's yours. You got it.

[Amy Poehler]

I'm going like, oh, that's yours to lose now.

[Lena Waithe]

I know it's yours to lose. I'm like, ah. And then, you know the history that came with it to be, you know, and you just had Mindy here. She's one of the first women of color to be nominated in that category for outstanding writing in a comedy series for episode of the Office, and Wanda Sykes won, but for sketch comedy writing, which was for Chris Rock's show. And so when they told me, when the Academy said, no, you're the first African American woman to ever be nominated for outstanding writing in a comedy series for the Primetime Emmy award. I was like, oh. Huh. Okay. And I think that just. It brought a different level of weight to it.

[Bill Rauch]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And I think what I wanted to do, I did think about Halle Berry winning that Oscar. And I remember watching and crying. And I was in Chicago, so it was late as hell. It was like my mom had gone to bed. She said, I hope she will help the black woman win. I was like, I know. We'll see. And I remembered that speech. And she was very emotional, and rightfully so. But I loved how she sort of channeled the women that had come before her. And I think what I wanted to do was to honor Susan Fells Hill, Debbie Allen, Yvette Lee Bowser Jr. Prince Bythrough. All these women that had been in television writers rooms that had influenced me and also wanted it to be a moment for the queer community as well, for us to be seen and just for black women that wanted to write TV comedy.

[Amy Poehler]

Totally. And you've spoken about this too, which is like comedy, which also just. I think any person that feels like they have to. Any person that feels like they're representing a lot of history and a lot of people, that isn't always the easiest thing for comedy, Right?

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

Because comedy is like, there's nothing worse than being like, I'm gonna write something very important.

[Lena Waithe]

Like, God, what? I mean, come on.

[Amy Poehler]

Like, you know, you're like, I'm write a classic sketch

[Lena Waithe]

for white women everywhere.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

I'm gonna change some minds with my comedy is like,

[Lena Waithe]

I'm glad that that episode meant so much to so many people.

[Amy Poehler]

You must have people all the time coming up and talking to you about it, right?

[Lena Waithe]

Yes.

[Bill Rauch]

Yes.

[Amy Poehler]

That's cool.

[Lena Waithe]

People you wouldn't expect. A lot of straight white dudes say they love it, which is always fascinating to me.

[Amy Poehler]

I bet you have a lot of straight white dude fans.

[Lena Waithe]

I do, interestingly enough.

[Bill Rauch]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

Because they love Master of None. They love Ready, player one.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah. Exactly. This episode is brought to you by Pure Leaf. Picture this. It's 3pm the day started. Strong. Spirits were high. Goals were set. And then something happens. Your energy evaporated. Your motivation clinging on for dear life. Bring yourself back with Pure Leaf, a real brewed, naturally caffeinated iced tea designed to help you take on what's next with bold flavor and just enough natural caffeine to snap back into it without the jitters. Time for a tea. Tea break. Time for a Pure Leaf. This episode is brought to you by Hershey's. Now, we've got to have a tough debate that we're bringing to you straight from the campfire. Are s' mores better when the marshmallow's gooey or toasty? Got a strong feeling about it. Course you do. When you're putting it to the test, just remember that nothing makes a s' more like Hershey's chocolate. Join the heated debate at Hershey's on social media and let us know if your campus gooey or camp toasty. This episode is brought to you by PayPal. School's back soon and so is that shopping list. You know the one. New backpack, new notebooks, new water bottle, new pens. Well, with the PayPal app. You can save offers from hundreds of brands and have them applied automatically at checkout. And if you want flexibility, you can pay now or pay later at millions of stores. Download the PayPal app to get started. Terms and exclusions apply. See paypal.com this episode is brought to you by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking whether your camera is off before the meeting. Yep. That's how your coworkers find out that your working from home setup is more of a working from bed situation. Checking first is a good idea, so check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary, subject to terms, conditions and availability. Allstate North American Insurance company and other affiliates. Northbrook, Illinois. What was it like working with Steven Spielberg?

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, my God.

[Amy Poehler]

We got to interview him for the Colman Domingo episode. He gave Colman a question, and I was saying to him, like, you know, thanks for giving me all of my memories.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. Thank you for giving me a happy childhood.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah. Like, everything you've ever done is in my head forever. Yeah. But what was he like to be. What was it like to be directed by him?

[Lena Waithe]

He's like the best dad you could ever ask for. And I always say he's a giant. That doesn't make you feel small. That's who he is. He's very aware of his bigness. He's aware of the history that walks into the room when he does. And he's really good at disarming people and making you not be nervous about it. And he was not in the room as well. When I auditioned for Ready Player One, thank God he hired me off of a tape, like, you know, like, I came in, obviously, for Ellen Lewis, who's also another iconic casting director. And I could tell when I walked in the room, I was just very comfortable that she saw something and then brought me in again. And I think she had a conversation with Stephen. I think that was a part of how I got in that film. But he just. He took to me, and it's so funny. There's a level of trust that was there before even getting on the set. And one day he said, lena, I could tell you to, like, run off this cliff and you would do it. I. I said, yep, yep. That's how much I trusted him. And you will. You'll follow him to the end of the earth because you know that his heart is in the right place. You know that he wants to make something classic, something iconic.

[Amy Poehler]

I feel like you, like when there's, like, a strong leader.

[Lena Waithe]

I do like, you relax. Yeah. And I sort of like when a person is leading with their heart.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

You know, and just sort of has everybody's best interest, you know, in mind.

[Amy Poehler]

Are you the kind of person, if there's no leader, it'll be you?

[Lena Waithe]

Look, it depends on the situation. It's like, do I need to get in here? Because I don't want to feel like I have to control everything. I don't want to be that person.

[Amy Poehler]

Why not?

[Lena Waithe]

You're like, you don't.

[Amy Poehler]

Seems like you know how to do it. I mean, somebody's got to do it.

[Lena Waithe]

I mean. So first of all, a lot of my friends have been like, oh, really? You don't want to control everything.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah. Like a trip. If you're going on a trip with your friends, are you the person that plans a trip?

[Lena Waithe]

I want to sort of curate the experience. Experience more so than control it, which is the same thing. Okay, got it. I'm in therapy right now. Got it. This is me creating words. You're controlling. You're curating it.

[Amy Poehler]

But see, I love that because that's your love language. Right.

[Lena Waithe]

I want to make sure we have a good time.

[Amy Poehler]

I just want to talk about Shia for a second. Congratulations on it. Like, you're. Now it's done.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. Almost like, whenever this airs, I'm done.

[Amy Poehler]

When this airs, it will have been done.

[Lena Waithe]

Wonderful, perfect.

[Amy Poehler]

And you are going to be like, you will have successfully wrapped eight seasons of a show which never happens.

[Lena Waithe]

How long did Parks and Rec go? You can't even remember.

[Amy Poehler]

This is a good question.

[Lena Waithe]

The fact that you don't know off

[Amy Poehler]

top, seven or eight.

[Lena Waithe]

So it tells me everything I want to know. It's the seven or eight. This is why we had to stop, because people were like, you could have went 10. You not knowing is everything I want in life. Okay. I know. Mary Taylor Moore wins seven seasons. First iteration of Second City win. Will and Grace was eight seasons.

[Amy Poehler]

I think. I think we did.

[Lena Waithe]

This is what happens when you make television.

[Amy Poehler]

Also, you forget this is called menopause.

[Lena Waithe]

I'm Perry. I'm Perry.

[Amy Poehler]

Here we go.

[Bill Rauch]

Perry.

[Amy Poehler]

I'm Perry. Hey, come on over.

[Lena Waithe]

Come on.

[Amy Poehler]

It's so fun. Look.

[Lena Waithe]

Night Sweats.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, my God. It's so great.

[Lena Waithe]

Night Sweats, baby.

[Amy Poehler]

And Parks and Rec had seven seasons.

[Lena Waithe]

Wow. So you're very Mary Tyler Moore. Okay. I'm one more. One more than you. And. Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

And you guys did eight, and you Know, people might not know.

[Lena Waithe]

Extended season. Season 6 was 16 episod.

[Amy Poehler]

I've heard you talk about that. Where they were like, we love it more. And you're like, this is so great nightmare. Because people don't took me out.

[Lena Waithe]

Took me out. I'm like, I like 10, baby. I like 10 cable.

[Amy Poehler]

What are we doing when you do. We used to do 20. We had really uneven seasons. Like, we had six seasons, six episodes the first season. And then.

[Lena Waithe]

Which is insane.

[Amy Poehler]

21 and then 24 and then 16. And then at the time, I think we were in the 20s. And to do 20 episodes of TV, as people will probably notice from episode 14, 14, 16 got a little goofy.

[Lena Waithe]

A little goofy.

[Amy Poehler]

Cause you start an arc that ends like, you know, at about episode 11 or 12, and then you gotta kinda start another one that's gonna take you to the end of the season. And in between, you're like, let's have an episode where we're all like, you know, just.

[Lena Waithe]

What did treat yourself happen, though?

[Amy Poehler]

Great question.

[Lena Waithe]

Just. Cause like, that feels like as an audience member, you wonder, is that y' all just being tired and landing on something great episode iconic question. Or is it like we're. This is something we think could actually

[Amy Poehler]

really take season four, episode four. So we were a little fresh. We were still a little fresh.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, that feels about right.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

Cause that was something that just incredible. It just stuck. And I still get those gifts from people. Like, they're just like, treat yourself this of 2011. Come on, man. What? And we still, like. We'll say it.

[Amy Poehler]

Written by Alan Yang, that episode.

[Lena Waithe]

Come on, Alan Yang. That's a good one.

[Amy Poehler]

Congratulations on a incredible run.

[Lena Waithe]

Thank you so much.

[Amy Poehler]

I mean, it does not happen anymore.

[Lena Waithe]

I know. For us are the Mohicans. Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

It's so true. And. And you know, like, you also, you. We didn't even really talk about it, but, you know, we both spent time in Chicago. You were born in Chicago. It's such a love letter to that city. And it's also like, just like the city. It's. Over the past eight years, the show and its relationship to the city has changed. Like, it's. It's. Do you have people from Chicago feel like real ownership of that show? How do they talk to you about the show when they talk to you about it?

[Lena Waithe]

I mean, they're mad that it's going away.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

They're like, what, just do it forever? I'm like, I don't know if I could do that. I was like, I'll do Some other stuff, but they feel like these characters are their family and they feel very connected to them. I remember when Parks and Rec went, when you guys closed the curtains and you guys were doing all the press. And I remember watching all those interviews and watching all of you because there was a purpose that watched the entire series. It does feel like a part of you is, like, not gonna be there anymore. And so.

[Amy Poehler]

And like, you're gonna miss the characters.

[Lena Waithe]

You're gonna miss the characters. I'm gonna miss the people, the writers. You know how that is.

[Amy Poehler]

It's just.

[Lena Waithe]

It's a family. It becomes a family. Even though it can be dysfunctional sometimes and it's work, but you realize how special that is to make something that the world watches and that people care about.

[Amy Poehler]

I wanna do a very quick speed round about. Coldest you've ever been.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, my God. Let me tell you something. Winters, as you know, in Chicago are just relentless.

[Amy Poehler]

They're relentless.

[Lena Waithe]

They test you. I think it's why I'm so cool.

[Amy Poehler]

I think you're right. I think that there's, like, a Midwestern thing. First of all, nobody ever talks about the weather because it's like, what's the point? What's the point?

[Lena Waithe]

It's like, accept it, deal with it. Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

Like, no one walks around saying it's cold.

[Lena Waithe]

Like, I'm waiting on a bus in Chicago. Okay. On the train.

[Amy Poehler]

Yes.

[Lena Waithe]

In the cold weather, walking from the train station to my home. Yeah. Like, you don't. Don't talk to me like I don't. Nothing scares me. Like, I'm not bothered by you or your attitude. Like, I've had to walk in snow to get to where I had to go. On a train? On a bus. Like, waiting on a bus in snow.

[Bill Rauch]

Nicole.

[Amy Poehler]

Yes.

[Lena Waithe]

Don't talk to me, man. Don't do it.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay. Best concert or best music you've ever seen There.

[Lena Waithe]

Best concert. Oh, see, here's the deal. I gotta do two.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay.

[Lena Waithe]

Prince and Whitney.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, my.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

What?

[Lena Waithe]

I know. But here's the deal. I would've loved to have seen talk about musicality. Here's the deal. A big influence my mom had on me. She did not like the fact that I couldn't hear Prince when I was young.

[Amy Poehler]

I heard you talk about this. I love this. Say that. Say more.

[Lena Waithe]

I did not. I just didn't get it. And she would play Prince a lot.

[Amy Poehler]

Well, you might have also been like. Like, nobody wants to, like, be in of what their mom is into, even if they have the coolest mom. The coolest mom. Like, if you're like, this is really great. Your kid's just like. They wanna be their own person. Maybe. Was that.

[Lena Waithe]

I don't know. I don't know. She would play him a lot, which makes sense now, as you think about it, in the car, in the house. And I just was like a young person that just said, I don't. What is this? What's happening? And so now, fast forward. He's coming to Chicago, and I'm in college. And she's like. And I said, why would I want to go to a concert of somebody whose music I don't like? And she said, because you don't understand, and you need to understand. And no child of mine is not going to be a fan of friends. I mean, this is really. She's not joking. Her friend Monique, they in the front seat. I'm in the back upset, and we're going. I think it was like, United center or something. I don't know. And we pull up and I go into this concert and I am, like, baptized in a way by his music. And I hear it for the first time live. And I'm, like, standing with my mom and her friend. They just having the best time. And I'm just in awe. And I still have a T shirt. We got a T shirt from that concert. I still have it. And I walked out of there different. And I went and bought all the. Then you could go to a record store. I went and bought all the records and was like, listening to everything.

[Amy Poehler]

Went to the Blockbuster. You got all the movies.

[Lena Waithe]

Went to watch Purple Rain. Purple Rain just really was educated. And it was one of those things where I was really grateful that she was like, you need to know what this is. And then fast forward, I'm in la, and he does a whole, like, you know, ascent at the Forum. And for a while, and I would go to those concerts and, like, listen. And I have him tattooed on the back of my leg now. Like, I have a prince tattoo on the back of my leg. And then Whitney Houston, which I also have her tattoo tattooed here on my arm. Paparazzi photo of her sticking her tongue out. I'm just. I've been a Whitney girl since, you know, her greatest love of all. And I'm not alone in that. You know, growing up in the 90s and being born in the 80s, she was it.

[Amy Poehler]

She was it.

[Lena Waithe]

There was no one else. There is nothing else. And I just remember finally, like, being in the same space and she was. And my Love is yous Love really was Like a comeback. Speaking of the comeback.

[Bill Rauch]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

It was her sort of coming back and saying, like, I'm not. Not done yet. I'm not done. You know, I'm still here, and I still have a voice, and I still matter. And I didn't even understand the significance of that, you know, as a young person. But I remember, like, oh, coming out with new music.

[Bill Rauch]

What?

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, man, it ain't the greatest hits. It's just she's coming out with some new stuff. And that was even really important for me to see that, for her to say, this is where I am now in my life, and I'm gonna be rocking with Wyclef and Missy Elliott and Rodney Jerkins and Lauryn Hill. And these people are who they are without me being who I am. And I remember that album and those videos and me just feeling really. And I have a T shirt from that one, which I wear often. And it's something about those shirts and those. When you go to concerts, like, grab a T shirt, do something, because you never know.

[Amy Poehler]

So many concerts. I regret I went to, like, New Edition was one of my first concerts.

[Lena Waithe]

Come on. That's why we love you.

[Amy Poehler]

God.

[Lena Waithe]

You can come to the cookout. You're coming. You're there. You're awesome. Come on. You're with us.

[Amy Poehler]

We love you, Ronnie, Bobby, Ricky and Mike.

[Lena Waithe]

Come on.

[Amy Poehler]

My little girl, who cares who she likes? But, man, I wish I had a T shirt.

[Lena Waithe]

I went to a Gina Jackson concert in Chicago, the Rhythm Nation. I still have that one. Like, the Merch shirts. There's something. It's a piece of history. The fact that I can still fit my damn Rhythm Nation shirt.

[Amy Poehler]

Well, can I talk to you about the way you dress for a second? Because I do it because I. I love it.

[Lena Waithe]

Thank you.

[Amy Poehler]

And you have such good style. Honestly, a lot of times when I see you at events, I'm a little jealous of how comfortable you look compared to everybody else.

[Lena Waithe]

It's the perk of being a lesbian.

[Amy Poehler]

There's so many perks.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. So many perks. So we don't have to deal with men. Like, I mean, that's the main one. We really are looking at y' all working very hardest. Journey. I mean, that male ego got y' all so true. Exhausted.

[Amy Poehler]

It's so true. It's so true. And, like, your style. I love your style. And it's very you. It's really like. It's. It's. Oh, it's always changing. It's always interesting. It is, like, always right for the event. That you're at, but you are never, like. It's just like you as a person. You're just never trying too hard.

[Lena Waithe]

True.

[Amy Poehler]

And it's always cool.

[Lena Waithe]

Thank you so much.

[Amy Poehler]

And do you have a style that you pick on all this stuff yourself?

[Lena Waithe]

Well, it's so funny. Cause I do. Jason Bolden, who is Cynthia's, like, he's actually her style. He would joke and be like, lena, I'm your stylist, too, sometimes.

[Bill Rauch]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

But they actually doing real work. They like doing stuff and having conversations. So. RuPaul always says, Everybody's in drag. And I think for me, I want to feel on the outside how I feel on the inside. And I just feel comfortable in the way that I dress. And I always want to feel comfortable.

[Amy Poehler]

Me, too.

[Lena Waithe]

I never want to feel like I'm trying to be something I'm not or make someone else feel comfortable. I don't want someone else's comfort to be a priority.

[Amy Poehler]

When did you figure out your own style? When did you always have it?

[Lena Waithe]

You know what's so interesting? Because I'm doing a clothing line right now called Proximity. All right. With the designer. Her name is Knox, and she's from New York. And she, you know, I like to wear. Cause I just want to wear designers that reflect who I am. She's a queer black woman, and we're friends, and we were like. And this is, you know, part of what she's doing. Like, she made this for me, and I wore this to a premiere of him. I'm wearing it again. I like repeating things as well. Just letting folks know that, like, every outfit doesn't have to be new or different. But I think I sort of. I used to wear those T shirts where there was a whole time people were wearing T shirts with, like, a whole paragraph. It was, like, a little funny joke. That was a thing I was doing so much. I was like, lord, help me. So glad I grew out of that. But then I got into vintage, like, stuff like vintage shirts and things like that that meant something to me. And I was like, okay, cool. And then I got, you know, make a little bit of money. I was like, okay, cool. I get a little designer thing here. There was a thing where you wanted the designer brand right there so people know you wearing Valentino. Then you get old, and you realize, I don't want nobody to know that I got Valentino on. Just let it be, you know, as Rasheeda does. Quiet luxury. Yes. You know, the white t shirt cost $500.

[Amy Poehler]

I mean, listen, I'M always asking Rasheeda. I'm like, where does this. And she's like, she's right now she's in the biggest clothes I've ever seen.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay.

[Amy Poehler]

Everything is gigantic Japanese.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, my God.

[Amy Poehler]

Everything. She walks in, I'm like, is this what we're doing now? It looks incredible. Everything she's wearing is incredible.

[Lena Waithe]

She's so chic and just eas. Like, I took a lot of tips from her. I said, okay, do a little plain, little jacket, little.

[Bill Rauch]

This little.

[Lena Waithe]

I steal a little bit with Rasheeda. I'm like, okay, Rasheeds. But I think style is not unlike your voice, so you have to try different things, find it over time. But I do think my queerness does lend itself to my style. And a big part of it is because I don't live under the male gaze. I don't have this desire to impress dudes or we're leaving. Impress, like, women. I'm just sort of. I'm like, what looks good to me?

[Amy Poehler]

Well, this is kind of a segue, which is. You're the producer right now on a show that is, like, all about people who are celebrating the way in which they've discovered who they are. And it is a show called Jellicle Ball.

[Lena Waithe]

This is true.

[Amy Poehler]

And that is the Jellicle Ball. Kat's the Jellicle Ball. Your producer on it?

[Lena Waithe]

Yes, one of the co producers.

[Amy Poehler]

And talk about watching in real time. People like, figuring out how I want to be in the world. Not only how I want to dress, but how I want to move, how I want to be an artist. How did you get involved in working with that show? When did you first see it and why did you want to be part of it?

[Lena Waithe]

Well, thank God Cynthia saw it first. She was here in New York and went to see that pack when it was off Broadway. And she called and she said, you got to see the show. You got to come down. You got to come to New York to see it.

[Amy Poehler]

I was like, boy. And I bet people might be a little intimidated when Cynthia Erivo's in the audience. That would be. I would be like.

[Lena Waithe]

I think they were very excited and ready to show off their skills. When she was there, she guest judged over there at pac. And so she called me. She was like, there's something. There's a level of intensity in somebody's voice where they're like, no, you need to come. And so I was like, okay. So I came, saw, and was blown away and said, okay, well, this should transfer to Broadway, I hope, and if it does, I said, I think we should be producers on it. And it wasn't the easiest thing, I think. Cause, you know, there's a lot of producers and Broadway shows and there's certain requirements and things that people need. And we just said, trust us, like, we need to be a part of this because we want to make sure everybody knows about it. And we want to get out there and like, wave the flag and be on this amazing podcast and talk about it and all that stuff. And so we were grateful to the lead producers that said, yeah, you guys should come on and be a part of this. And, you know, speaking of Blockbuster, I watched Paris is Burning, that documentary, because it was on the shelf. And I saw it one day and I said, I'm going to watch this doc. And I never stopped watching it. And I kept rewatching it again and again and again, and I was seeing what I want it to be. I was seeing these people with these big personalities and saying funny things. They're hilarious. If you go back and watch Paris is Burning, there's just joke, joke, joke. They're not even trying. They're just being hilarious.

[Amy Poehler]

And I mean, that to me is like real love. Language is when people, like, tease each other.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, my gosh. It's like, yeah, the white version is teased, black versions throw shade. You know what I'm saying? It's like, we're throwing shade, we're being fierce, we're talking trash. And so I just love how Paris Burner really obviously helped to influence cast Angelica Ball and also influence pose and things like that. But to see Junior labeija, who was in the documentary, and a lot of people in the documentary have since passed away, for him to be on that stage every night and being able to feel that love and receive it, I'm honored to witness it. And I've seen it twice, obviously, on Broadway, obviously once off Broadway. And it's something that just brings me so much joy.

[Amy Poehler]

Well, we got to talk to the directors.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, come on.

[Amy Poehler]

The Tony Award winning directors.

[Lena Waithe]

That's what they are now. They're the best.

[Amy Poehler]

And we got to talk. Well, behind your back with them.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, my goodness. Because these two, the dynamic duo, first

[Amy Poehler]

of all, I was very stressed. I felt like they brought way too many relatives to the Tony.

[Lena Waithe]

Well, come on.

[Amy Poehler]

I know, but they had a lot of people in those seats. And at one point they were saying they had to talk to everybody. And I was like, no, no, you don't. Look, it's your night. Yeah, it is. But they spoke of course. So beautifully about just what you were saying, which is that you guys. You and Cynthia used your currency to get this show where it needed to be, and you saw something right away that meant so much to them. And that. That is kind of you in a nutshell, Lena. Like, you are an artist who really loves other artists. You really support and, like, you like what you. You like. And when you like something, you really want people to know about it. Like, you are, you know, you're a mentor for so many people. And you're also just, like, never forgetting that you're a fan and a student at the same time. It's awesome. Thank you. And they love working with you, and they had a couple questions for you.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, my goodness. Ebony and Ivory.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

Okay.

[Amy Poehler]

And so Jaelyn's question was, who is the person that you see on the dance floor? Or what? What kind of person do you see on the dance floor that gets you excited, that makes you think this is gonna be a good party?

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, like, who do I, if I see them on the dance floor is gonna be a good time?

[Amy Poehler]

You know what I mean? Who are you looking for? Might not even be a specific person, but a kind of person.

[Lena Waithe]

Wow.

[Amy Poehler]

A kind of party.

[Lena Waithe]

You know what's interesting? Cause I love to dance, but I don't necessarily need to be in the center.

[Amy Poehler]

I know. Cause you're cool.

[Lena Waithe]

I don't need to be in the center. I know, I know, I know.

[Amy Poehler]

That's what cool people do. They dance on the. They dance on the side.

[Lena Waithe]

I'm on the side of it to cut.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

You know what I mean?

[Lena Waithe]

Doing the taste stuff.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, oh, I know. Barely moving looking girl,

[Lena Waithe]

not breaking a sweat.

[Amy Poehler]

You mean you're not break dancing in the middle? Like, the person that's, like, humping and puffing and going for it.

[Lena Waithe]

But you know what, though? I fuck with those people, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you need that person.

[Amy Poehler]

Party pumper.

[Lena Waithe]

You need the Beyonce.

[Amy Poehler]

I'll tell you what I can bring to a party.

[Lena Waithe]

What's that?

[Amy Poehler]

I'll be the first one on the dance floor.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, you will. Cause you're not. You don't have any quality.

[Amy Poehler]

I don't care. Somebody's gotta start it, and nobody wants to. And we've been in, like, industry parties where it's like, there's a great dj, nobody's dancing. We gotta start this. Like, what, are we gonna talk to each other?

[Lena Waithe]

Like, enough of that. Let's go.

[Amy Poehler]

And I will. I'll sacrifice myself and be number one, Hopefully a friend, but maybe Something.

[Lena Waithe]

That's why you're the cool. That's why I loved reading Bossypants. I love that section about you when Tina says, like, when Amy got in there, it was like, oh, things have changed. Things are gonna be different around here. Such a great passage where she talks about you coming to snl. And I think that's so reflection of you at a party. Like, you're not afraid to be the first.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

Well, I.

[Amy Poehler]

Don't be embarrassed. I don't care.

[Lena Waithe]

Which is what makes you amazing.

[Amy Poehler]

But who do you like to see? What type of person?

[Lena Waithe]

What type of person?

[Amy Poehler]

Or like, is there a friend that you're like, okay, they're here. It's gonna be fun.

[Lena Waithe]

You know what? I like a person who can actually dance. I'm not skilled. You're not taught. We just going off of the vibes.

[Amy Poehler]

Who's a good dancer?

[Lena Waithe]

Well, a lot of the cast from Cats, like, we had an after party. I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm not even doing a two step over here. I'm like, I'm gonna let y' all do what you doing. Like, yeah. I think a lot of the drag queens, like, are doing a different kind of vibe. Cause they know choreography.

[Amy Poehler]

Yes.

[Lena Waithe]

That's the thing. Like, dancers, who. And performers. I really love watching them.

[Amy Poehler]

Me too.

[Lena Waithe]

Cause there's an art to it. There's something to it.

[Amy Poehler]

I was saying earlier, it's like magic.

[Lena Waithe]

It is.

[Amy Poehler]

It is.

[Lena Waithe]

I like watching. Watching people dance. That's why. That's why I don't. I. I'm like, I don't want to get in the way. I don't. I want to just, like, catch a vibe, be a part of the groove. But I love watching people that actually know how to dance, how to dance. Because I could watch them all night.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay, and the last question today is, what are you? Cause I know you love. You're like a culture vulture. You keep up.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

What right now are you watching? Listening to. What are you into? Give me some recs. It could be a video that you can't stop watching.

[Lena Waithe]

It could be so much.

[Amy Poehler]

And like, let's.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

Let's.

[Amy Poehler]

Let's let have it be funny.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

Okay.

[Amy Poehler]

I can't watch anymore. I know you were going to say.

[Lena Waithe]

No, I was about to go half man.

[Amy Poehler]

Sorry, Exactly. I was about to say you were going to go half man and baby reindeer. Okay, I'm looking the last.

[Lena Waithe]

I know, I know. I'm sorry. I know. I like.

[Amy Poehler]

Even though I think that's technically a comedy.

[Lena Waithe]

I know, I know. Oh, God. Okay. Damn. Are you a couple's therapy girl?

[Amy Poehler]

Okay. Couples therapy girl.

[Lena Waithe]

Recent season. Okay, okay, okay.

[Amy Poehler]

First of all, who do we wanna tell?

[Lena Waithe]

Woo.

[Bill Rauch]

What?

[Amy Poehler]

I'll take it away from this specific couple and just say in general, what is so good about couples therapy, please. I think is that you watch it and you're like, I got these two pet. You think you like. You're always proving a little wrong.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, my gosh.

[Amy Poehler]

I am. Anyway, like, it's like, I know what this problem is. This person. This person. You think you're good. I like therapy. And then they start to talk and you're like, oh, they're not here for that. They're here for the other thing. And also, I don't know what I'm talking. You know, like, we don't know anyone's shit.

[Lena Waithe]

I'm not smart. Like, I'm not Dr. Orna. Like, she has a PhD.

[Amy Poehler]

Exactly. Like, I love being proven wrong. Cause I'm always like, that guy is not right for her and she's too. Whatever. And then it's like, you're that friend. No, you're wrong. Like, you're not. You don't know. And the way in which you watch how communic, how different everybody's communication styles are.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

Whoa.

[Lena Waithe]

Very different. Everybody should be watching couples therapy.

[Amy Poehler]

I agree.

[Lena Waithe]

Whether you're in a relationship or not.

[Amy Poehler]

Absolutely.

[Bill Rauch]

Right.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay.

[Amy Poehler]

You learn so much about yourself.

[Lena Waithe]

You learn so much. And I think.

[Amy Poehler]

And those couples are awesome for participating in it.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, my God. Yeah. Truly. Because what I also learned is that we all have childhood traumas that usually

[Amy Poehler]

comes out around episodes.

[Bill Rauch]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And it's never what you expect.

[Amy Poehler]

Nope.

[Bill Rauch]

Ever.

[Lena Waithe]

And you see how that is playing out in their relationship.

[Bill Rauch]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And my hope is. And also, you know, I've been therapized. I'm in therapy. I'm a homo therapist.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

Sorry.

[Lena Waithe]

Everybody relax. But I've learned a lot about myself in terms of how I show up as an adult based on how I was raised. I mean, it sounds very simple and easy to understand, but you sometimes have to really question your own behavior. Like, why did I do this? Why did I behave this way? Why am I struggling with boundaries? Like, what is that? And it's like, oh, because I didn't have. My mom, didn't have boundaries with me when I was a kid. And so now I have to learn that for myself as an adult. Or my partner has an abandonment wound. And so when I go quiet or I leave without saying goodbye, it triggers her in a way that I wouldn't think it would. And so. And that's why I think learning in therapy that vulnerability is a strength, and a lot of people wanna protect that. Or I don't wanna tell you this hard thing. And the thing I learned too, is, like, truth does no harm in that. And so I've had to get really honest with, like, people I love or say, like, hey, this is a part of me that I'm ashamed of or I'm embarrassed by, but I wanna say it out loud and see where you stand. Not to test you, to see if you'll stay, but rather, so you know exactly who I am and you can make an informed decision about whether or not you wanna stay.

[Amy Poehler]

And, Lena, you just said something that, like, I watch it a lot to just get scripting for how to say things.

[Lena Waithe]

Wow, that's good.

[Amy Poehler]

Because it's like, sometimes I, like, break the window when there's a door right next to it that's open. Like you want to get something out, but the way you say it, it's like, it's good practice. Just what you just said. Like, hey, I want to share this thing with you, and I want to know how you feel about, like, just the gentle way into the vulnerability is like, just practice. Because if you don't, you know, if you don't see, if you don't have tools or practice to figure out how to talk to people about how you feel, then it just can be, like, either shocking or like you said, like, we withdraw or we, like, over. Humans are fascinating, really.

[Lena Waithe]

And I think that's why I love the show so much. And it's so interesting because, you know, I hear sometimes single people, particularly in this certain case, it's single women who are of a certain age, and they're like, I'm single, and the only way I want a relationship is if it brings joy to my life or if it makes me happier. And it's. Cause I always think that is not how a relationship feels. Like, that's not how that goes. Like, if you expected somebody to come and bring just joy and happiness and fun and romance. No. It's like, imagine looking in a mirror all the time.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah. A real true relationship makes you confront the stuff in your space that you

[Lena Waithe]

want to run away from.

[Amy Poehler]

Totally. We are fascinated with the beginnings of things. We're fascinated with the young people, young love, people falling in love. We're just so into it, and then everybody gets there, and then we never ask them another question again. We never talk to people who've been married for 10 years. And, like, how's it going? What's going on? Whatever. We're just, like, interested in who people are dating or when they break up or whatever. But the middle, the in between, is like, nobody even. Nobody talks about it.

[Lena Waithe]

They don't.

[Amy Poehler]

Nobody asks any questions about it. And it's the same way with, like. I'm finding the same way with, like, middle age. Like, people are really fascinated with, like, you know, young people on the rise, and they're fascinated with, like, the gravitas of being the legend. And you're like, there's a lot of middle here. Yeah, there's a lot of things happening.

[Lena Waithe]

That's true. You know, I mean, I'm 42, and so I think,

[Amy Poehler]

little baby. Little tiny baby. 42. So cute. Okay, no, no, no. 42. 42.

[Lena Waithe]

42 is interesting. It's interesting.

[Amy Poehler]

Millennials are old now.

[Lena Waithe]

I know.

[Bill Rauch]

It's weird.

[Lena Waithe]

I feel it. I'm like, I'm a young elder. I'm childless by choice, have no desire to raise children. But I think what you're saying in terms of the falling, the newness of something, I think that, to me, is something I do get a little frustrated with. We romanticize the meet cute.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And the meet cute's cool. It's great. But I think what I'm learning so much is being comfortable in the boredom.

[Amy Poehler]

Yes.

[Lena Waithe]

Comfortable in the quiet.

[Amy Poehler]

Or how about this? What is contentment? Like, what is contentment?

[Lena Waithe]

Because familiarity breeds contempt.

[Amy Poehler]

That's right. And. Oh, we could talk about this forever.

[Lena Waithe]

I know. We gotta lay on the plane.

[Amy Poehler]

I mean. Because there's nothing like. I mean, I'm sure you watch Couples Therapy. We'll wrap it up by saying couples therapy can kind of feel like almost like a board game where you're watching after many seasons. And then some. Like, a person will say something and their partner will and be like, ugh. And roll their eyes, and you're like. And there it is. Couples therapy is so good.

[Lena Waithe]

It's just great. Like, everybody. That's my big thing, Couples therapy. And I'm trying to think if there's a.

[Amy Poehler]

Everybody just watch as much therapy as they can.

[Lena Waithe]

I know. And like music. I'm trying to think. I don't have my phone, but, like, please listen to Tim's T E M s. Amazing singer.

[Amy Poehler]

Phenomenal.

[Lena Waithe]

She's great.

[Amy Poehler]

That Lauryn Hill tribute.

[Lena Waithe]

Phenomenal.

[Bill Rauch]

Jesus Christ.

[Lena Waithe]

Lauren had to get up there. Lauren said, I can't let y' all do a trivia without me being a part of me.

[Amy Poehler]

I know.

[Lena Waithe]

She said, let Me get up here and do my song.

[Amy Poehler]

One.

[Lena Waithe]

One album. But technically, people sleep on Unplugged. Go listen to Lauryn Hill Unplugged back on mtv. Used to do that. I love that album.

[Amy Poehler]

Love that record.

[Lena Waithe]

Her voice is like, scratchy, and she's real. She done been through some stuff.

[Jaelyn Levinston]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

It's like, it's the album. Post success.

[Bill Rauch]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. Telling you about some shit, but, God,

[Amy Poehler]

it would have taken. I would have. I wish. I wish there was like 10 more albums from her.

[Lena Waithe]

But see, here's the deal. We can't demand labor.

[Amy Poehler]

I know. We have to. We gotta get out of here.

[Lena Waithe]

I know I'm probably late for another hang that I was supposed to have. And they're like, what was you doing? Hanging with Amy. Classic. This is what we would do.

[Amy Poehler]

Thank you for coming and doing this. This was so fun. Thank you so much. Lena Waithe. That was so fun. I could have talked to you forever. And we talked about so many great things. And so for this polar plunge, I just want to remind everybody how incredible Debbie Allen is. If you haven't seen her work, Debbie Allen was. Well, she kind of broke into the scene for us anyway in a show called Fame, where she plays this incredible dance teacher. And Debbie herself is a choreograph and actress and producer. And she was Lydia Grant who was telling Leroy to find the soul within him to learn how to dance. And she has. She's. She did a million episodes of A Different World. You can catch her talking to Lena Waithe on her podcast, Legacy Talk. They have an incredible conversation. And she's the sister of Phylicia Rashad from the Cosby Show. I mean, talent family up the wazoo. So, Debbie Allen, if you're listening, I love you. Thank you for being so talented in so many things. Thank you for listening. Thank you for doing the podcast, Lena, and thanks, everybody, and we'll see you soon. Bye. You've been listening to Good Hang. The executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss Berman, and me, Amy Poehler. The show is produced by the Ringer and Paper Kite for the Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, Cat Spillane, Kaia McMahon Mullen, and Alaya Zaneris. For Paper Kite, production by Sam Green, Joel Lovell and Jenna Weiss Berman. Original music by Amy Miller.