Anne Lamott

Summary

GOOD HANG with Amy Poehler
Guest: Anne Lamott (with Tina Fey)
Date: July 28, 2026
Episode Summary

Main Theme & Purpose

In this special episode of Good Hang, Amy Poehler welcomes acclaimed writer Anne Lamott to discuss writing, friendship, spirituality, and embracing life’s messiness. The conversation dives into Anne’s unique voice as an author, her approach to faith and self-acceptance, the power of female friendship, and her experiences with love and creativity later in life. Joined by fellow writer and superfan Tina Fey, the episode has a warm, self-deprecating, and often hilarious tone while exploring profound topics like grief, shame, comfort, and finding joy in small moments.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Anne Lamott? (02:41–06:29)

• Amy frames Anne Lamott as the “writer’s writer” and an inspiration for her honesty and humor.
• Tina Fey joins to express her admiration: “I would describe her writing as very honest and funny and it's like meeting a new friend. When you meet a friend who you instantly go, oh, you're. You're one of my people.” (05:02)
• Tina notes Lamott’s books are a longtime source of comfort: “They help you feel less insane.” (05:45)

The “Describe Anne” Game (09:04–13:03)

• Tina brings a family-style “what would Anne be?” game, underscoring Lamott’s relatability and the affection her readers feel for her.
  • Color: Burnt orange or sunset orange (Tina & Amy’s guess)
  • Breakfast food: Avocado toast (Amy), or oatmeal with “a sneaky amount of brown sugar” (Tina)
  • Holiday: Thanksgiving—“gratitude and community”
  • House pet: A cat—"pretty self-sufficient, but they come around sometimes"
  • Day of the week: Sunday—for rest, faith, and a bit of the “Sunday blues”

Lamott’s Entrance—Gifts, Friendship, & Showing Up (14:04–19:22)

• Anne brings Amy a box of meaningful gifts (hand of God, socks, miracle bracelet, “You are a blessing” scroll).
• They reflect on instant, profound friendship: “You are a person who I just said, will you be my friend? And you said, yes, I'd love to be your friend...I haven't met all the people I'm supposed to, and I'm not friends with all the people I'm supposed to be friends with.” (17:45–18:15)

On Writing & the Truth Behind the Process (21:37–24:25)

• Anne on self-editing and gentleness: “I edit me with a lot of gentleness...and I do a lot of bribes and threats. And then I write incredibly terrible first drafts, and then I go back and I take out half.” (21:37)
• The pain of cutting favorite lines and “killing your darlings.”
• Amy relates this to comedy: “Anytime you think anything works, it usually goes away.”

Anne’s First Book and the Agony of Reviews (24:19–27:54)

• Details on writing and selling Hard Laughter while her father was ill.
• The sting of initial bad reviews and the shock of a rave from Anne Tyler: “Right. So then you think, I've arrived. I'm the queen of the hill. I'm the total princess of all the earth. And then, of course, the next day, you get a bad one.” (27:45)

Lamott’s Wisdom: Darkness, Friendship & Surviving the World (30:55–34:56)

• Amy reads a passage from Anne on turning 68 and embracing the messiness and darkness of life: “The whole system of our lives works because we are not all nuts on the same day.” (31:06)
• Anne: “Laughter shines us up a bit. And so goodness and fresh air and radical self care...You do what you would do with a close friend.”
• The essential role of best friends: “I was literally saved by girlfriends the way other people are saved by Jesus or Buddha. And I mean that literally.” (33:36)

The Power (and Humor) of Telling the Whole Truth (35:23–41:15)

• Story of “Horrible Bonnie,” Lamott’s mentor, who always insisted things would work out, embodying hope and comfort.
• Lamott discusses writing Operating Instructions—her honest account of single motherhood—saying the “shame of being a parent is just something that just hadn't been talked about at all.” (40:02)

Writing Bird by Bird & Demystifying Creativity (40:19–41:45)

• Bird by Bird was written to dispel the myth that good writing is about outlines and instant brilliance: “I sit down and it goes badly. Most days I sit down with the bad self esteem and the raging ego ping pong game and I start writing and it's awful, it's unreadable, it's God awful. But I have a secret. I keep my butt in the chair. And I know to write really terrible first drafts.”

On Faith, Sobriety, and Finding God (42:27–49:06)

• Amy discusses how Anne writes about faith in a “non-annoying way.”
• Anne recounts finding God as a hungover outsider, drawn in by music and community: “Grace means you've just run out of any more good ideas. And I'd run out of any more good ideas.” (43:04)
• Comparing faith to a stray cat: “If you feed a little stray cat, it's not a stray cat anymore...I finally just stopped and ... said, 'okay, fine, come on in.'” (46:43)
• Anne’s approach to spirituality is simple: “I have the theological understanding like a really bright second grader...I just feel it in my heart.” (48:50)

On Discomfort, Growth, & Letting Go (50:13–52:16)

• Exploring the necessity of discomfort for growth: “It's in the discomfort and the dark nights of the soul that the growth and the healing happens.”
• Difficult people as spiritual ‘teachers’: “I can tell when I'm really uncomfortable because somebody's annoying me...something good is going to come of it in me, but I'm not...want to sit next to them at the table.”

Meeting Neil Allen, Love, and Later-Life Partnership (53:08–58:22)

• Lamott’s hilarious and poignant Match.com stories: “What I wanted my whole life was a man who, if he were a woman, would be my very best girlfriend.”
• Solutions to love/cat allergies; mutual acceptance and deep support: “We've never been apart for a single day unless one of us has been out of town...”
• Bonding over hospice work and “Ripple” by the Grateful Dead at their wedding.

Good Writing: Anne & Neil’s Book (59:05–61:10)

• The creative process of their co-written book, Good Writing:
  • Neil’s 36 sentence rules (“write from good verbs”) and Anne’s annotations: “I became convinced that somewhere in this book there was a place for me. And I sort of tugged on his shoulder one day, I said, 'You know, I know something about writing.' ”

Would You Rather: Tina’s Questions for Anne (62:28–65:54)

(Timepoints for questions below)

• Pasta with butter forever vs. anything on a moving bus? "Im-pasta" (62:44)
• Only reread beloved books vs. only read new? “I read only books I've read and loved.” (62:55)
• What color would you be? “Lavender.” (63:11)
• What breakfast food? “Oatmeal.” (63:27)
• Holiday? “I love Easter...We are Easter people living in a Good Friday world.” (63:35)
• House pet? “A cat...It’s like having a little monkey living at your house.” (64:24)
• Day of the week? “I love Sunday mornings...rest is a sacred act.” (65:35)

Coping with Sunday Dread & Small Acts of Comfort (65:54–67:41)

• Lamott’s remedy for dread: “I do a lot of breath work and I pray and I call a girlfriend or I go find Neil or my son and I say, do you have a minute?...As soon as you share it with someone, it's lessened.”
• On simple spiritual practice: “I wrote a book called Help. Thanks. Wow. The Three Essential Prayers...and I'm always saying one of those three prayers. Yeah, they always work.”

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Amy on Anne’s writing: “Your writing does for me is it makes me feel less alone, and it makes me feel seen. And it also gets rid of the mystery of things that I think keeps us apart from each other.” (20:55)
• Anne on humor and pain: “Laughter is carbonated horror holiness. If you're laughing in a really tough patch of time, you're on holy ground.” (25:00)
• Anne on writing process: “I write incredibly terrible first drafts, and then I go back and I take out half. And that part's so painful.” (22:31)
• Anne’s advice for moving through dread: “As soon as you share it with someone, it's lessened. That's the only way I've ever been able to let go, is to share it with somebody. And then it gets so much…Its dark dilutes it.” (66:47)
• On Mary: “Who told that little boy, Diego, don't be afraid. I'm here. And that's what she says now. Says it to us both right now. Don't be afraid. I. I'm here. You're okay.” (68:03)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:41 — Tina Fey joins, “Describe Anne” game intro
• 05:02 — Tina describes Anne's writing style
• 09:04 — "Describe Anne" (what color, what pet, etc.) game
• 14:10 — Anne arrives bearing gifts for Amy
• 17:45 — Amy on making new friends even midlife
• 21:37 — Anne on her writing/editing approach
• 24:19 — First book and early reviews
• 30:55 — Anne’s 68th birthday reflection (“not all nuts on the same day”)
• 33:36 — Anne on salvation through girlfriends
• 35:23 — The tale of “Horrible Bonnie”
• 37:44 — Operating Instructions origin
• 40:19 — Bird by Bird and writing process demystified
• 43:04 — Anne on the experience of finding her faith
• 50:13 — Growth through discomfort and dark nights of the soul
• 53:08 — How Anne met her husband Neil Allen
• 59:05 — Collaborating on Good Writing
• 62:28 — Tina’s “Would You Rather” segment
• 65:35 — Anne as Sunday morning/rest as sacred
• 66:23 — Coping with Sunday dread and sharing feelings

Tone & Language

• Tone is heartfelt, irreverent, wise, confessional, and generous—true to the personalities of Poehler, Lamott, and Fey.
• Language remains conversational, with humor blended into honest exchanges about pain and resilience.

Especially Memorable Moments

• Anne’s “miracle bracelet” ritual for hard times (15:19)
• The “not all nuts on the same day” truth (31:06)
• The comfort and power of female friendship and teasing (“teasing as a love language”) (34:56)

To Sum Up

This episode is a warm, deeply human conversation about being honest with yourself, cherishing connections, embracing imperfection in writing and life, and finding comfort through small, intentional acts of kindness. Anne Lamott’s stories, analogies (the “stray cat” faith!), and gentle wisdom, mixed with Amy and Tina’s trademark humor, offer a healing dose of laughter, radical acceptance, and hope.

Listen to this episode for:

• Anne Lamott’s greatest hits of advice and self-acceptance
• Writing wisdom demystified
• Deep laughs about love, friendship, and getting older
• Spiritual insights made funny and real—no pep talks required

---

If you’d like a more detailed minute-by-minute or a thematic index, just let me know!

Transcript

[A]

Hey, babes, it's Paris Hilton. So I was checking my points balance in the Hilton Honors app the other day and yeah, I've got about a billion, which feels excessive even for me. Just kidding. You can never have too many Hilton Honors points. And I want to do something iconic this summer, so I'm giving away all my Paris points. Just find somewhere you've always wanted to stay, then go to my socials or Hilton's and tell me about it. Just make sure you're a Hilton Honors member and I might be sending you Paris points because when you want points that make your summer even hotter, it matters where you stay. Foreign.

[B]

Welcome to another episode of Good Hang. Very excited to have our guest on today. It is the great writer, Anne Lamott. And I know we've had writers on before and authors, but this is an author author. This is a writer writer. You know what I mean? Anne Lamott is a best selling author who has written such books as Bird by Bird and Traveling Mercies and Operating Instructions. And we're going to talk to Anne about so many good things. We're going to talk about Jesus and we're also going to talk about Mary. We're going to talk about being a, you know, a sweet and tender kid in San Francisco trying to figure out life. We're going to talk about finding love with people who are allergic to cats. And you love cats and what do you do about it? And we're going to talk about her new book that she wrote with that love, her husband, Neil Allen. And it is called Good Writing. And we're going to get into that. So lots to discuss today with Ann and thrilled that she's here. And, you know, I wanted to, I wanted to find somebody who loved Anne like I did and was a fan of her books. And I figured why not go back to one of my nearest and dearest friends and friend of the pod, the one, the only, my favorite writer, Tina Fey. Tina? Tina Elizabeth Fay, are you there? This episode is presented by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking how long that recipe takes before you start cooking. Well, that's how you learn that simmer for four hours is buried halfway down the page. Yeah, checking first is a good idea. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary subject to terms, conditions and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Company and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. Hi.

[C]

Hi.

[B]

Hi, Betty. Thank you for coming on again you are an official friend of the pod. You've been on Now, I think 14, 15 times.

[C]

I love it. The one time I came on and remember I was all dressed up like Gwyneth Paltrow and nobody, nobody caught on that. That was, that was me.

[B]

Oh my God, you were so good.

[C]

I just do a really good Gwyneth Paltrow impression.

[B]

Your hair looks incredible.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

Is this a blowout?

[C]

This is a blowout and I'm spending a lot. There's a lot of breakage. But we're just going to press through. We're going to press through.

[B]

Are you at a point now where you're getting a blowout even if you're not?

[C]

Working for my own sanity, sometimes I go like once a week like a 1950s lady. Also because the thought of, of walking around my apartment with wet hair can't take it.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Because I can't, I can't do hair. This is like something Anne might write about because it's an exercise in hope and faith and every time I air dry my hair, I believe it's going to come out better. And it never does.

[B]

Actually. Anne Lamott, who, you know is an amazing writer, she's written fiction, she's written memoir, she's written, she's like an essayist, she's, she's self revealing. She's written in all different genres that I wanna talk to her about today. She has also written about hair and her hair, her body coming to terms with our physical selves. And she's really funny about it, how she tries to reconcile, like we all do, her physical parts.

[C]

I thought that was so interesting. When you were talking to Carol Burnett too, about how old do you feel? She's like, I feel 11. Didn't she say 11?

[B]

11, yeah.

[C]

And I get that. And we do forget you've. There, there are times when you, you are absolutely feel that way and you just. And you absolutely forget about the carcass that you're in and how long it's been around.

[B]

I asked you to do this first part because you and I have talked about Anne Lamott and how much we like her and like her writing. And I think there will be people listening to this pod today that will be die hard fans of hers and then people that might be discovering her work for the first time. If you were to talk to somebody who had never read her, how would you describe her as a writer?

[C]

I would describe her writing as very honest and funny and it's like meeting a new friend. When you meet A friend who you instantly go, oh, you're. You're one of my people. You know, because she's so direct and she is so. Yeah. She's just so unguarded in her memoirs. And I also. I love the book Bird by Bird. I give that book to people all the time. Anyone interested in writing, any kid, you know, going to college. It's just. It's such a helpful, demystifying book about writing.

[D]

And.

[C]

Yeah, you know, Ann's books, I've turned to them many times in my adult life for. To take comfort. They are a comfort. You know, traveling overseas and operating instructions and some assembly required that. Different phases in your life, those books are all a tremendous comfort, and they make you. They help you feel less insane.

[B]

That's so true. Anne Lamott. I'm gonna find out more about her today. I've been, like, reading her stuff in preparation for this. This is actually. This is the first writer I've ever. I mean, other than comedy writers like yourself and others. But, like, this is the first, like, writer, writer, writer. Prose writer.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Prose writer, yes. It's a little more daunting to have. I feel like I need to work harder.

[C]

No, I think it's going to be great. And I think I was thinking too, like, oh, yeah, what can I ask her? And I was torn up, like, in some ways, I was like, well, I can't ask her to, like, minister to us, because I want to be like, ann, why is God taking only the good people? Do you know, Ann, Why? What's happening?

[B]

It's so funny you say that, Betty, because I. I feel like my instinct is to keep saying, ann, how can we help? Help like Anne, can you tell me? And I wonder. I want to ask her, like, does she get that a lot? Does she get people saying, like, ann, tell me how to. Because she does minister in her own way.

[C]

Her own way.

[B]

But it.

[C]

It's. It's probably tough to do on the spot. Can I tell you some things that I. I tried to make notes of, like, what might want to ask her.

[B]

Incredible. Tina. Best student ever.

[C]

You can cut any of this out, because. Okay.

[B]

Please and thank you.

[C]

Let me see. And I got some new glasses. Check them out.

[B]

Let's see.

[C]

They're a little more square.

[B]

Oh, I love them.

[C]

All right, let's see. Also, I had sort of a game that I thought maybe we could look

[B]

at Tina doing all the work for me yet again. This. Guys, I just. This isn't. This is an example of Tina's love language. I just want to point out, you ask her to do. Hey, can you jump on for 15 minutes? And Tina does research and also offers up a game that she's thought of. This is how she shows her love, and I am forever grateful for it. Thank you.

[C]

Thank you for knowing that about me. This is. This is my love language. Like, I'm not. If I had to buy, like, a physical gift, I would struggle, but this is all I got. As I said before, I would like her to minister to us and let it try to help us understand why God is only taking the good people and leaving all the turds behind. Then I started thinking, like, it might be because she's a creative person. I wanted to ask her some Would you rathers. Ooh, you had to say with those. So I'll just bang through these and you can edit them out as you see fit. And would you rather only be allowed to eat pasta with butter for the rest of your life? Or you can have anything you want at any time, but all of your meals will be served on a moving bus. Think about that. So if you're hungry, you have to go down, get the bus. My lights are banging. And then you eat on the bus. Would you rather only be allowed to reread books you've already read, or only be allowed to read new things and never look back?

[B]

Ooh, Tina, that's deep.

[C]

Okay. And then this is the sort of the game I was going to propose, which is because Anne is so open and revelatory about herself in her writing, we feel like we know her. We don't really know her. But there's a game that I like to play on road trips with my family where pick a person. And then everyone, the way your family has to guess who someone that you know and who they're thinking of. You have to answer these questions like, okay, if this person was a breakfast cereal, what would they be? If this person was. Whatever. And so I thought, what if you and I like to try to answer these questions to describe an. But then ask her and see what she says and see if we get close.

[D]

Perfect.

[C]

Okay, so here's the ones I had so far, which is, I started with, if Anne was a color, what color would she be? I'm gonna say sort of a burnt orange.

[B]

I was just about to say a sunset orange.

[C]

There we go. Oh, boy.

[B]

Let's see what she says. I hope she gets it right, because we're right.

[C]

Why am I. Look at my lights keep flickering. I gotta pay these bills. If Anne was a breakfast food, what do you think she would be?

[B]

Let's not forget she lives in California. So I'm gonna say like an avocado toast.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

What would you say?

[C]

I'm gonna say for some reason I'm gonna say sort of like a porridge with probably some kind of nuts. Probably, let's say a California almond and you know, maybe some, maybe some fruits. But I think a lot of brown sugar. Like a sneaky amount of brown sugar. Like an amount of brown sugar that renders it back to unhealthy.

[D]

Perfect.

[B]

Delicious.

[C]

If Ann was a holiday within the year, what would she be?

[B]

Oh, wow, this is a good one. Because it really makes you think about what holidays you consider good and bad holidays. And I, we've, I'm sure we've talked about this on this pod and elsewhere, but Tina and I don't always agree about what makes a good or bad holiday.

[C]

I like a lot of holidays.

[B]

Well, the biggest example being Halloween.

[D]

Right?

[C]

I like Halloween. Amy does not like Halloween.

[B]

No, it's for children. Halloween is for children. I'm gonna say Thanksgiving.

[C]

Thanksgiving. Yeah, that's what you were gonna say that too. I wrote Thanksgiving, duh.

[B]

Obviously Thanksgiving, duh. Okay. So she, I hope she gets that

[C]

right, because gratitude and community and.

[B]

Yeah, yep.

[D]

If. Okay.

[C]

What if she was a house pet? What kind of. Some kind of pet?

[B]

I think it's a cat.

[C]

Yeah, I wrote down a cat also. And then I also wrote down kind of that maybe she's kind of like a Greek cat. The ones that kind of mostly live outside and are pretty self sufficient, but they come around sometimes. Also a little bit of a bearded dragon in that. There's. I feel like there's a stillness, there's a watch. Watchful eyes. And that she is able to eat cockroaches and still get nutrition out of it.

[B]

Still can't believe you have a bearded dragon in your house. You know what will happen is eventually one morning you will wake up and that will be. Bearded dragon will be gone.

[C]

Eluse in the house.

[B]

Yep. And you're gonna fall asleep looking for it. And then it's gonna be on your chest over your mouth, sucking your spirit out.

[C]

Good luck. Good luck finding it. A day of the week. What. What day of the week do you think Anne would be?

[B]

Well, I'm gonna say it might be too on the nose, but I'm gonna say Sunday.

[C]

Sunday. Yeah, Sunday. Come on, Ann, you gotta get that right. Because Faith. And also I think because it's a day where you kind of take it easy on yourself.

[B]

So true. And you have a little bit of Sunday blues, which Ann isn't afraid of and isn't afraid of talking about.

[C]

I bang my lights to that. Yes. That was all I.

[B]

A perfect game. This is so fun. Of course, Betty, you come with a fully realized written game.

[C]

Oh, God bless.

[B]

God bless is right. Thank you for that.

[C]

I'll see you very soon.

[B]

I will see you very soon. Thanks for your time.

[C]

Love you.

[B]

Bye.

[C]

Love you too.

[A]

Bye.

[B]

This episode is brought to you by Visible. Folks, it's officially summer. Whether you're planning summer travels or staying home to watch all the action in the villa, you need a wireless network that keeps you connected and you don't have to splurge. With Visible, you get unlimited 5G data and unlim hotspot powered by Verizon for just $25 a month so you can save and order some extra spritzes this summer. Visible is more than just a wireless plan. It's unlimited wireless designed to always keep you connected. And there's no contract to tie you down. Switch [e-mail] plans start at $25 a month. Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro plan and save $10 on your first month. When you use promo code, hang terms apply. See visible.com for plan features and network management details.

[D]

Woo hoo hoo.

[B]

Ann, Lamar brought me a. A package.

[D]

A care package.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. How are you?

[D]

Good.

[B]

Thank you for doing this.

[D]

Are you kidding?

[B]

Can I open it now?

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

First of all, beautifully wrapped.

[D]

Thank you.

[B]

Did you wrap it?

[D]

I had a lot of trouble with it. I want to say I had a lot of trouble.

[B]

Are you a good wrapper?

[D]

Could I have the ribbon back? Yeah, the ribbon's great. Unless you really want it.

[B]

No, the ribbon is beautiful.

[D]

Yeah, it's my best ribbon.

[B]

But what's the present?

[D]

Okay, there's a bunch of things. What is that? Okay, that's from Mexico. That's the hand of God. But it's a really special one because it not only has mother Mary, it has a baby goat.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[D]

Don't you love Mary? I mean, how can you not love Mary, right?

[B]

I wanna talk about Mary.

[D]

All right, we'll talk about Mary. I love her.

[B]

I love her.

[D]

That's my favorite, favorite pair of socks. I got them in Paris, but they're from Japan. I only worn them once, but not for years. But I've always sa because they were so incredible. They're beautiful. Yeah. You know, sometimes if you feel worried or lonely and you put on socks that someone gave you, they just can change Your whole day around.

[B]

Oh, Ann, I love these.

[D]

Don't you love them? I love this.

[B]

This is so nice.

[D]

Okay, now, this is really special. You know, I hang out with a lot of sober people, and when Covid happened, the old ladies at my favorite women's group started making miracle bracelets for the young, the newcomers, the women and girls who came in who were brand new in Covid, which made. So I never wear these unless I need a miracle. And that means I'm feeling very mentally ill and tweaked and clenched and clutched. Then I go get a miracle bracelet, and I put it on, and I think I'm going to keep my hands off the spaceship till I hear back from God or whatever she's up to today. And so then I put that on, and I'm not kidding. It works 100% of the time.

[B]

This is a beautiful beaded miracle bracelet. And I will say it has a little bit of, like, a Taylor Swift energy, too, which I. Oh, I've never heard about. Oh, you've never heard.

[D]

Wait, wait, wait. You have to look at the COVID Okay.

[B]

Pocket blessings by Blessings abound. Okay, so I'm opening up a tiny box with what looks like a little ribbon inside. And Ann, just to just let everybody know again, Ann has brought me a beautiful box of gifts. And here's one that has tiny blessings.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And it's a little blessing.

[D]

A little scroll.

[C]

A little scroll.

[D]

Oh, wow.

[B]

A little scroll with a blessing in it.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

I wonder what it says. Oh, my gosh. Do you know? Anne knows.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And it says, you are a blessing. Coming in real hot. Anne Lamott coming in with all of these gifts. I mean, you've already given me so much. And here we are with this beautiful box. Anne lamotte is with me, and I'm so thrilled. You know, when I was thinking about being with you today and thinking about what we were gonna talk about or what I should talk to you about and all that stuff, I just had the moment where. A moment you would remind me to have, which is like, oh, don't forget, you're just gonna be in each other's company.

[D]

Right. We're just hanging.

[B]

I know.

[D]

I know. We've never gotten to be together. We've had this really nice friendship, but we've never been in actual touch before.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

I mean, it's funny because I feel like if I wrote to you and said, amy, I need you, you'd say, okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

What do you need? And if you said that to me, I'd say, okay, I'm there. What do you need? And I would show up wherever you were. Isn't that funny? And we've never actually been in the same room together.

[B]

I feel that, too. I really do.

[D]

It's funny.

[B]

You are a person who I just said, will you be my friend? And you said, yes, I'd love to be your friend. And it's a good. I always love to be reminded that I haven't met all the people I'm supposed to, and I'm not friends with all the people I'm supposed to be friends with. And I feel like you and your writing and the way you include all of us in your life and your world is why I feel emboldened to do things like that. So thank you. You are our first author that we've ever had on. Good hang.

[D]

Oh, wow.

[B]

And it means a lot to me that you're doing this. When I talk to other actors and performers, I feel. Mm. Like we're. I don't know. We're sharing a vocabulary. But there is a. There's a funny thing that happens with writers where people like myself want to make sure that we sound smart.

[D]

I know. Well, I feel that, too, all the time with everyone. Oh, yeah? Yeah. And I have to do a special draft of everything I write where I go through and I take out the lies, and I go through and I take out all the stuff that I just shoehorned in so that people think I'm smarter than I am or that I'm educated, and then I take it and I go, it's okay, honey. You're just where you are. It's fine.

[B]

Isn't it funny? We just keep doing it. Same thing with, like, advice. Like, someone told me one time, like, wait until someone asks you for advice, to give it. And no one ever asks. No one ever actually asks. What do you think I should do?

[D]

That's so hurtful. Well, Amy, what do you think I should do?

[B]

I think you should just keep doing what you're doing.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

I feel like. And do you get this a lot? Because I'm already feeling this way where people say to you, Ann, tell me, like, do they want you to kind of emotionally lay hands on them and make them feel better or different? Do you find that people ask that of you?

[D]

A little bit.

[B]

What's that like?

[D]

Well, you know, I've been a Sunday school teacher for 32 years, so I have a lot of tricks up my sleeve. I've recently retired, but I always did a thing with my kids, and it's a tiny Failing church. So There might be four kids there, and they could be a four year old up to a 15 year old, right? And I do this thing called loved and chosen with them. And so I might go, is there anyone here wearing a sort of navy shirt with pink grid on it? Well, you know how little kids are. They go, yes, and wave at me. And I go, oh, Amy, you are loved and chosen as is. Why don't you come sit with me for a minute? And I do. But it might be like it's anyone wearing Pokemon shoelaces, Right? But that's what I just try to convey to people, that, you know, you're loved and chosen, and you're exactly where you're supposed to be, and I really care and. Can I get you a glass of water?

[B]

You know, you're reminding me of when Mr. Rogers used to say the names at the end of his show. Remember that? And he would look through and say, nic. And he would say all these names, and you'd be kind of waiting to see if your name came up. If he could see you. It was such. That's an example of just, like little people and big people. They just want to be seen.

[D]

They just want to be seen. So do we.

[B]

Yeah, we all want to. I mean that truly. If I was to sum up, what your writing does for me is it makes me feel less alone, and it makes me feel seen. And it also gets rid of the mystery of things that I think keeps us apart from each other. I want to talk about all of that today and all the stuff that you've written. And I kind of want to start, if it's okay with talking about the stuff that you write currently, in real time, all the time. Cause you're here to talk about your new book that you've wrote with your wonderful husband, Neil. What are your steps when you're working on something where you're calling yourself out, where you're taking your.

[D]

Oh, I edit me the way I would edit you. I edit me with a lot of gentleness. I'd say to me or you, I'd say, you know what, Amy, I love this, but I think maybe it goes somewhere else. Not in this piece you just handed me, which means it doesn't work here at all. But I would say it in that way. And I would say it just feels a little bit like on the first page, like you're sort of clearing your throat a little bit. But on page two, you start to get into it, and that's where you caught my. You know, that's how I would talk to you. Now, also, I know you're a parent of sons also, and, you know, nothing worked right, but bribes and threats. I mean, anything else? No bribes and threats. So I'll say, okay, Annie, if you write this one passage, we're gonna stop and go for a walk. We're gonn and watch Ms. Now. We're gonna stop and have a half a sandwich.

[B]

Treats at the end.

[D]

And threats if you don't finish this. And so I'm strict and friendly with myself when I'm working and writing, and I do a lot of bribes and threats, and somehow. And then I write incredibly terrible first drafts, and then I go back and I take out half. Yeah, I take out half. And that part's so painful. I don't know if it's the same with you as a comedian, but it's like you hate to just lose something, you know, that you. You loved and thought really worked.

[B]

Well, anytime you think anything works, it usually goes away. Like, it's always like, oh, that's the best joke. And it never makes the movie, never makes the sketch, because you just. You've become so attached to it. You're just, like, in love with it. And then someone goes, well, you could lose this first. And you're like, my favorite joke.

[D]

I know. We can't be friends anymore. I know. Well, Jessica Mitford, the great writer from Oakland, said, you have to kill your little darlings, and you have to go through. And all those lines I used to try to get you to think something about me like that I'm smarter than. Better than more ironic anything. I just have to cut, because then I'm gonna hand it to my husband, my current husband, Neil Allen, and he is gonna notice it, and he's gonna say, you just don't need this. And he's gonna mark it. So it's better just to do it before.

[B]

Now you refer to Neil as your current husband?

[D]

Well, he's also my first husband. Yeah, I got married three days after I started getting Social Security.

[B]

I cannot wait to talk to you about that, because the way you write about and have shared your feeling about partnering up later in life is like, I've gotten so much from it, but before we get there, I discovered you with hard laughter, which. Was that your first book?

[D]

That's my first book. That was 45 years ago. Wow.

[B]

How old were you when you wrote that book?

[D]

I was 24 when I. I was 24 when I sold it. I think I was 25 when I published it. Yeah. I Mean, it was just an amazing break.

[B]

How, what was that? How did you get that first break? How did you go from writing and what and being published?

[D]

Well, my dad's agent had always agreed to represent me if I ever wrote anything representable. My dad was a well known writer and I kept sending her these stories and you know what they do before you kind of hit before you really come up with something. Oh, this. It's like when a kid makes you something like an ashtray out of clay with a dents for the cigarettes to sit on. They go, did you make that? So she was always like, oh, did you make that? And they were just terrible. And then my dad got. Which, as you know, from hard laughter, he got a metastasized melanoma in his brain. And we knew he wasn't going to make it because no one ever had yet in 77. And so I started writing a book about how a family stays afloat when, you know, an anvil has dropped on the family, when the center of the family is not going to be there forever. And a lot of it was that we were laughing, you know, and it was black gallows humor. And I've always said that laughter is carbonated horror holiness. If you're laughing in a really tough patch of time, you're on holy ground. And my brothers are funny. And I wanted to write a love letter to my dad so he would know how my brothers and I felt about him. And so I changed it a bit in that there was always a little bit of hope in the novel that he was going to be okay, which we knew he wasn't. And I sent off six chapters and my agent loved it and it was really rough. And you know, it's just like she saw the diamond in the rough or something, you know, and she showed it to an editor at Viking, Cork Smith. And he loved was the Strangest Thing.

[B]

And you were writing it while your dad was ill, right?

[D]

While he was ill. And I finished it and sold it while his brain was still working the last eight months or so. He was really not very functional. But he called me to tell me and had read it and loved it. And I mean, that was like the great miracle of my life.

[B]

Wow.

[D]

But the first two reviews I got were pre pub reviews, Publishers Weekly and Kirkus. And I got them in the mail. I mean, I don't know if your audience is even familiar with waiting for mail to find out news about your career and your finances, but I got these in the mail from my agent and they just were terrible reviews. They just said, we hate her. She's right about thinking she's a loser, as demonstrated in this new novel.

[B]

So you get your first terrible reviews, and you have to make a decision there about what you're gonna do with them. What do you do with them? Where do you put them?

[D]

Well, then there were. Then I got. There was. It was amazing. Well, luckily I was still drinking at the time, so I got through that. And then I didn't have a cent, literally, in the world. But by hook and by crook and by good friends, I got the money together to go to new for publication. And Ann Tyler, one of my favorite writers to this day, wrote this rave in the New York Times Book Review.

[B]

Wow.

[D]

So, right. So then you think, I've arrived. I'm the queen of the hill. I'm the total princess of all the earth. And then, of course, the next day, you get a bad one.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

This episode is brought to you by PayPal. Backpacks, laptops, notebooks, pens. Another year of school, another massive shopping list. But here's a little secret. The PayPal app has offers on hundreds of brands. Simply save the offer you want and then check out with PayPal to automatically apply the saved offer to your purchase. And if you want flexibility, you can pay now or pay later in millions of stores. Download the PayPal app to get started. Terms and exclusions apply. See paypal.com rewardsterms this episode is brought to you by Purdue Global. You know a great way to give your younger self a hug? By giving that person a chance to come back stronger. No matter what stage of your life and career you're in, it's never too late to become who you want to be. That's why Purdue Global was built for working adults, so you can earn a degree you can be proud of. This is a great moment to move forward. Get started at PurdueGlobal EduGuDhang. This episode is brought to you by Subaru. There's something about being on the road that has a way of leading to those unexpectedly memorable little moments. And in the all new 2026 Subaru Hybrid, it's like the destination isn't even important. It's the drive, baby. And let me tell you, I'm in that car, and I feel like a million bucks. Quiet ride. Comfortable. Love my Subaru. Can't get enough. With up to 581 miles in the Subaru Forester Hybrid and even more 597 in the Crosstrek hybrid, you can go further between stops and stay in the moment longer. Visit subaru.com hybrid to learn more the Subaru Forester Hybrid and Crosstrek Hybrid Love Goes the Extra Mile this episode is brought to you by American Airlines. You'd think sitting on a plane with just a couple of hours between you and your vacation would be reward enough, but American Airlines said, what if we gave them even more? With the American Airlines Advantage program, you earn miles not only when you fly, but with thousands of your favorite brands and then redeem those miles for flights upgrades and experiences worldwide. That and Advantage members also enjoy earlier boarding and free high speed WI fi in flight. Join for free and start earning towards your next [e-mail] Amy. I was reading something you wrote and I shared it with my friends just the other day because you do often engage with the world and you kind of like, tell us, like, I know it's bad out there. You do the opposite of gaslighting, basically, which is like, like, here's the bad things that happened this week. I saw it too. What should we do about it? And the what should we do about it? Is never anything that feels. I don't know, it just feels simple and right and real and we're all kind of working it out together. Would you mind reading something that you wrote?

[D]

No?

[B]

Okay, so it's just this. So it was this little section here because I wanted to ask you about it. It was when you were 68 and you were writing about that year.

[D]

Okay, okay, okay. But turning 68 means you weren't born yesterday. Turning 68 means you've seen what you've seen. Ukraine, Sandy Hook, the permafrost, Marjorie Taylor Greene. By 68, you have seen dear friends literally ravaged by cancer, lost children, unspeakable losses. The midterms are coming up. My mind is slipping. My dog died. Really, to use the theological terms, it is just too frigging much. And regrettably, by 68, one is both seriously uninterested in a vigorous debate on the existence of evil, or even worse, a pep talk. So what does that leave? Glad you asked. The answer is simple. A few very best friends with whom you can share your truth. That's the main thing. By 68, you know that the whole system of our lives works because we are not all nuts. On the same day, you call someone and tell them that you hate everyone and all of life, and they will be glad you called. They felt that way three days ago and you helped pull them out of it by making them laugh or a cup of tea. You took them for a walk or

[B]

to target the Idea that we're all not nuts on the same day is. I mean, talk about a blessing. And it is exactly what we're still dealing with right now, which is like, what do we do? The world just keeps spinning out of control. Things just feel darker and darker and darker. What do we do? We make each other tea.

[D]

We make each other tea. And we try to shine a little brighter by, you know, laughter shines us up a bit. And so goodness and fresh air and radical self care, you know, you might binge on Below Deck or don't tell anyone but People magazine. Always, right? Always. And radical self care. You do what you would do with a close friend, you know, and with a close friend, if she isn't even worse shape than you are, you're the one that says, I'm on my way. I'll be there in 15 minutes. Bring your wallet.

[B]

I mean, we. I talk about it a lot here and just kind of show by example. All of the friends that give so much to me and that I feel so proud to be a part of their group. But I feel like female friendship is.

[D]

It's different.

[B]

It's different. Why is it different, Anne?

[D]

Well, it's different because we have always been so much more emotional and truth telling than men. They weren't raised to tell the truth. They were raised to look good. You know, they were raised to seem or be powerful or to amass more prestige and power and money and whatever. And we understood, I mean, women, our bodies are messy. The work of women is messy. In the Christian tradition, we're the last at the cross and the first at the cave, you know, and we're there for birth and death and we're comfortable, we get comfortable with it. You know, I was literally saved by girlfriends the way other people are saved by Jesus or Buddha. And I mean that literally. I was literally saved by, by chapter books, too. And I mean that literally. It meant that no matter what the world threw it with me, I could still be with Shelley Adams tomorrow when I'm six years old and I'm 72 soon and Shelly Adams and I still walk two or three times a week. And when the world has just thrown all this horrible bleak stuff at me, get in bed with Ann Tyler or Barbara Kingsolver, and there's gonna be truth and there's gonna be laughter and there's gonna be insight and there's gonna be. It's gonna comfort my. And I feel that. And I love a lot of men writers, a lot of men, and I've been influenced them But I turn to women writers for truth and comfort. Yeah, I just do.

[B]

I feel the same. And I. And I think you're like. I feel like by reading your writing over the years, I've also got to walk with your friends. Like, I. You bring your friends in your work a lot, and you do that wonderful thing that is so loving, which is because to me, teasing is kind of a love language. And the way you tease when your friends tell you the truth. Like when you talk about Horrible Bonnie, for example. Like, could you speak about her?

[D]

Horrible Bonnie was my mentor when I first got sober, which was in 1986. And I was called her Horrible Bonnie because no matter what I had on my mind when I called her, and it might be disgusting, like for a new drunk, barely sober woman. And she'd always say, oh, dearest, I am so glad you called. And then she would say everything was going to sort out at the end, which is what John Lennon says. John Lennon says, everything will work out in the end. If it doesn't look okay, it's not the end, you know. And so Mary Baker Eddy, the mother of all New Thought of Eckhart Tolle and Marianne Williamson. Everybody says that, but Bonnie would say it in this loving mother, grandmother voice. And at first I go, oh, no, I don't think you're right. You know, I think. I don't think you understand that the complexity of the. And she would just say, I know, darling. And so I always called her Horrible Bonnie. Cause she'd always ruin my bad moods and she'd always make me have hope and faith again. And that when you're with people that help you understand that it's the inside person that just needs to feel to connect with their loving, sweet, generous heart. That is literally what heaven on earth is like, is when you connect with how generous your heart is, even though your mind is like. Like, you know, cranky and cringy and trying to figure out who to blame. In my case, I think you're fine. But in my case, usually the default step is to figure out who to blame. Oh, yeah, right.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[D]

And then I can relax.

[B]

Oh, I mean. And also, you know, I don't know about you, but of the two emotions, anger and hurt, I'd much rather be angry than hurt.

[D]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

I mean, angry all the way.

[D]

All the way.

[B]

So I'd much rather be mad than sad.

[D]

Oh, of course.

[B]

Sad's the. Sad is not where I wanna live.

[D]

No. So let me tell you what is in between those, I think. And it's One of the things I wrote down, what keeps happening when we feel that separation from, like, if we're. If we've been hurt or if we've gotten the bad review or we've gotten the, you know, neglected or kind of blown off or whatever, Paradoxically, what I feel and what I think a lot of the women I'm close to have felt, you just go into that shame spiral. Right. Instead of just crying or feeling grief.

[B]

Yeah. So tell people what operating instructions for people who haven't read it is about.

[D]

Well, okay, let me go back and say, when my dad got sick, I did what you do. You go to the library and you look for books by people you respect who have been through a similar circumstance, and you read how they got through it. It's our only hope. Mine most of the time. But there were no books in the 70s about cancer because it was unseemly. You didn't talk about death or dying. You know, it was just like, whoa, what a buzzk. And so when I had a baby, I went to the library to find books. And I was single and I was broke, as usual, and there was just nothing about the fact that it can be so boring. And I had an infant, and pretty soon the infant got colic and I would. Started writing. I started keeping this journal. And, like, I'd write things like that one night, just strung out on that exhaustion. It's unbelievable. I thought about wrapping up my baby really carefully in blankets and putting him on the porch for the night just so I could get one night's sleep. Because, you know, it's like, put your own oxygen mask on first. And no one had written stuff like that yet.

[B]

No.

[D]

Or I had written. At one point I thought he had gone down and I could cry with my love for him. And then I wrote, oh, God, now he's raised his loathsome reptilian head. And no one had written that before.

[B]

That's right.

[D]

And so people were like, oh, my God. So then the next book after that was my first writing book, which was called Bird by Bird.

[C]

Right.

[D]

So it went from that to Bird by Bird. And then I think I wrote some more novels.

[B]

Now, the thing about operating instructions, and I remember reading it before I had kids, and I didn't understand. I understood later what you were actually really talking about, about that those early times when you feel sleep deprived and, like, the only one getting it wrong and all that stuff. You're right. What you did, it's still transgressive still to say I'm not completely and madly in love. I'm actually really stressed out and I'm not feeling the bliss I'm supposed to feel or I don't think I'm doing it right or there is still this crazy amount of pressure for young mothers to have to instantly be in love with the new role that they have.

[D]

Right. The shame of being a parent is just something that just hadn't been talked about at all.

[B]

Even the realization that your parents are people is a relatively new idea that your mother was a girl and that your parents are people. It's not that old of a thought.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, it's true. So then I want to do the same thing with writing. Because all existent writing books said if you did certain things, probably an outline and this and that and the other, that things would go well and you would almost certainly sell your book and then you would have really, really good self esteem all the time. And I wanted to say this is how I do it. I sit down and it goes badly. Most days I sit down with the bad self esteem and the raging ego ping pong game and I start writing and it's awful, it's unreadable, it's God awful. But I have a secret. I keep my butt in the chair. And I know to write really terrible first drafts. I know. And a lot of writing students don't believe that the writers they love most in the world, the books they love most in the world, began as God awful, overly long purple prose first drafts.

[B]

But Anne, do you ever find other writers pushing back on the idea or your ideas of that? Because when you say that what you're doing is you're opening up, you're like, you know, people always believe there's some kind of special room that only certain people are allowed to go into. And there's certain vocabulary that keeps people out of the room. And when you open up the door and say, come into the room or here's how we do it here, other people that are in the room don't always like it.

[D]

Right.

[B]

Do you ever feel that? Or did you ever feel that when you were first writing about writing?

[D]

Almost everyone I've talked to ever about writing has said, oh, that's the same with me. Yeah. But I just keep my butt in the chair and I use bribes and threats. Now it's funny because yesterday Nate Silver, the legendary Nate Silver, out of nowhere, not referencing me, said people talk about writing first drafts and that it's okay not to get it right as you're going. So I find that a great waste of Time or something like. And I thought, well, that must be so nice.

[B]

Yeah. To have a fully formed.

[D]

To have a fully formed thing. It's like when right wing Christians tell you what the truth is and you think God, that just must be so nice to be so sure of yourself. Like I never am.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like no one ever is.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Well, okay, you talk about right wing Christians and Christianity and we've talked a lot about spirituality. And you. Did you find your faith through sobriety? Is that when you became.

[D]

No, I found my faith drunk. I'd always believed in God and my parents were atheists, so we weren't. And I know you were raised Catholic and that's a very beautiful way to have been raised. I mean, some issues. Putting that aside for a minute,

[B]

where did you first find God as a.

[D]

I was living across this. I was on a houseboat literally twice the size of this table with a sleeping loft in Sausalito. And I would be so hungover and I'd walk across the street to this flea market that was in this economically totally deprived place where the crack epidemic had taken place. Mostly people of color. Six churches and a place of 2,000 people. And there was this. Cause when you're hungover, you want kind of greasy food and a lot of coffee. And I would hear music from the civil rights movement coming out of this one ramshackle church with this horrible Charlie Brown Christmas tree out in front. A pine tree that, you know, it looked like Bertrand Russell at the end. But I could hear this music coming. And I had been raised on civil rights music and on Joan Baez and the Weavers and Pete Seeger, and I knew all the words. And sometimes I think grace means you've just run out of any more good ideas. And I'd run out of any more good ideas. I tried everything. I tried to stick to four or five social drinks and the non habit forming marijuana on it and some pills and one day at a time. And I couldn't. So I finally went and I sat down in this church. And the thing was there's like 30 or 40 people, same church that I've been at all these 41 years now. And they didn't try to hassle me, they didn't try to get me to sign on or to come to Bible study or to figure out anything or to figure out who shot the Holy Ghost. Just could see I was desperate and lonely. That's the God acronym of the gift of desperation. And I sat there and I was like desperate but like crabby. You Know, and I couldn't relate to people, but they got me water. I always left before the sermons because I didn't want too much of the Jesus stuff. Yeah. And then little by little, it just ground me down. Little by little I started staying and I just always got. And I got, while I was drinking and trying to be other religions, that Jesus was this sweet, sweet shepherd, you know, and he just. And he had this incredible mother. And that it was the ultimate as is program. And that as I was, which was horrible and messy and promiscuous and nuts. Although charming, I mean, had a perfect life. I. I had three books published. I was well known in the. Everybody I love lived in my county, my mom, my brothers, my cousins. But my insides were like Swiss cheese. And little by little I could kind of bear the Jesus part. And so I started sticking around. And one day I was walking to my houseboat along the dock and this is going to sound like I'm crazy, but. But I could just feel them and I could feel them like if a little cat, a little stray cat was running alongside me. And I didn't want a little stray cat. And all my friends are progressive activists, they all worked at Mother Jones at the time. And it was like I was kind of kicking the little cat away. Go away. Because you feed a little stray cat, it's not a stray cat anymore. You probably own a cat now, right? I'm not stupid. But then I finally just stopped and I don't. This was great. Which is spiritual. WD40, you know, with that long thin red straw and it squirted me and I just said, okay, fine, come on in.

[B]

So has it changed now that that little cat came? What is that? How has your faith changed? Like, I think for people, when they think about faith, I think sometimes they think of it like a bank account that just, you know, like an account that gets bigger and bigger. Like you get more and more and more faith.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Is that how it works? Does it go away and come back? Does the cat go away sometimes and come back? Does it.

[D]

What the. It doesn't go away because I do the work, you know, I do the practice and I study and the practice keeps it. And I do. I read the Bible a little bit every morning and my friends believe in God and a lot of them believe in Jesus and in a non annoying way. And I just. That has. I mean, my best friend died, as you know, from operating instructions when I was not that sober. And how old were you again, Annie, when she died? Yeah.

[B]

How old was she?

[D]

She was 37.

[C]

That's right.

[D]

I think I was 37 too. And I got sober when I was 32 and I had a three year old, no, two year old. And it was very, very scary. And I wrote about it a lot in operating instructions. But, you know, I don't have an interesting or sophisticated theological. No different than that day with the stray cat. I have the theological understanding like a really bright second grader, you know, And I don't have conversations, I'm not asked to have conversations about the triune nature of the deity. You know, people will say, I can't feel God anymore. I can't feel God right now. And I'll say, oh, good, why don't you sit down, let's have a cup of tea. Or do you want to go shopping? Do you want to go for a walk or do you want to lie down on the couch with me? And so I don't have interesting intellectual answers about faith. I just can feel it. It's truth in me. I just feel it in my heart. It's like I have a heart cave. And in it is my little one, my little Annie that I always was, and my big old Annie and Jesus and Mary, and I can just feel them. And I, for whatever reason, I just let it go at that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, even my question is interesting that I'm realizing because I think there's like this idea that there's some deep second chamber, third chamber to all of it.

[D]

Right.

[B]

That there's some like. Did you get to level 10?

[D]

I didn't, I didn't.

[B]

I mean, there is none. That's the big thing you find out in every department of life, which is like, you think there's some secret room where all the cooler people, smarter people, more evolved people are, and there isn't.

[D]

There isn't. There's just where we are, where our butts are, where our hearts are. I know. Well, yeah, I keep it very simple. I keep it very practical. Can I ask you something?

[C]

Yes.

[D]

Do you think this is going okay?

[B]

Oh, my God. I think this is going great.

[D]

Oh, okay, good.

[B]

Let's ask Jenna, though. She's listening.

[A]

Jenna.

[D]

Okay, good.

[B]

I think this is going great.

[D]

Oh, okay, good.

[B]

And thank you for asking that. And I love that you asked that because what I wanted to say about, like, you are willing to kind of keep. You keep checking in. Like it's important to check in, but that is, that's not always easy to do, to check in, to like kind of put dip your toe into the, like there's the way in which we can and kind of all live in our worlds of, I don't know, our comfortable worlds. And then we kind of sometimes, especially when we get older, I know for myself, have to kind of force ourselves to get uncomfortable.

[D]

Like, we.

[B]

Comfort is really nice.

[D]

Right, right. But you also discover that it's in the discomfort and the dark nights of the soul that the growth and the healing happens. Because I would be 4 foot 7 if I had had anything to do with how I was gonna grow. I don't like discomfort. I don't like growing pains. I don'. I've been sober 40 years, and I've discovered that that is where it's gonna happen, is like, I'm not. And Jesus doesn't have a magic wand and tap you on the head and say, go forth, little one. You know, be happy and joyful. But Jesus and Jesus, in the distressing form of other people, usually sits down next to you shoulder to shoulder and says, you know, I can just sit here for as long as you need and we'll breathe together and things will change.

[B]

So do you believe this idea of, like, other. Other difficult people are gurus for you? You know that when somebody's like, oh, he's your guru. She's your guru. Like, this horrible person is in your life for some reason, I feel that later. Yeah.

[D]

I can tell when I'm really uncomfortable because somebody's annoying me or they just seem so stupid or so wrong, I can tell that something good is going to come of it in me, but I'm not. I don't want to sit next to them at the table. And it's like in one of the many 12 step programs I'm in, there's one for people with tiny control issues. They use the word intimacy to mean into me. I see. And when I have that feeling of I'm seeing in me, I don't love it. I'm not avoiding the beautiful, generous, silly, playful. I'm avoiding the parts that are scared and judgmental, that endless judgment. But, you know, if you want to heal it, you got to reveal it. And as soon as I can see it and I share it with my best girlfriend, I start to get better. You know, people say, oh, let go and let God. And I just want to poke him in the forehead with a plastic fork like they're a baked potato. Because if I could have let go and let God, I definitely would have. Trust me.

[B]

Well, that's when people say, like, oh, you just have to feel your feelings. And I'm like, you gotta be kidding me.

[D]

No, stop, please.

[B]

There's gotta be another way than actually feeling your feelings.

[D]

I know. No, definitely bars. But reveal sharing it with a friend. Because then you. You, at some point, you start laughing. Maybe you cry because a person's saying, you know, I have that exact same thing. And I have a lot of shame around it. And it's that kind of short core shame that you might be disgusting or not. Okay. It's not truth, though. It's not truth. It's something that. Like my husband Neil. And we need to segue to Neil in a minute, but he does this work.

[B]

I love Ann is just, like, quietly controlling this interview.

[D]

I know. I don't want. I don't want.

[B]

Are you kidding me? There's nothing I love more than a one. A woman who's a little older than me, who I respect having control issues.

[D]

Okay, good.

[B]

Let's talk about Neil.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

Can you tell everyone you're meet cute? How did you meet?

[D]

We met on match and match.com, well, there's a Match wing for older people. I forgot what it's called, our time, but I'm pretty well known in the Bay Area.

[A]

And.

[B]

Ann, had you dated before this?

[D]

I've been with a man for six years, and I hadn't been with anyone for a couple years.

[C]

Okay.

[D]

Yeah. And, yeah, I'd been in relationships before, but I'd never gotten married. And then. So I decided I would learn to date because I had never had to date. You just certainly when you're drinking, you don't have to date. You just know you're gonna be with this person, and they have cocaine or they have money or they have a car or they can get your cigarette lit, you know, or whatever. And after I got sober, I just didn't know how to date. But I always kind of knew who, like, the next hostage was gonna be, you know? And I didn't know how to, like, sit down with someone, have coffee and get to know him. So I decided. I wrote a piece. It's online. You can find it if you put ann lamott and match.com. i had a terrible year of dating. Like, I dated this one guy who had this Beavis and Butthead laugh. And I had to sit through the whole coffee, and I was just going, like that guy in the three suit. Just going. I was like that. But people were. Men were bringing me manual stuff like that.

[B]

Oh.

[D]

And it was just awful. And one man said right before our third date, said, is it too soon to bring you a Plot treatment. And I said, yeah, a little bit. And I never saw him again. But so I learned how to date. And I learned a lot about who I am and what I needed. What I wanted my whole life was a man who, if he were a woman, would be my very best girlfriend. My ultimate best girlfriend. I'd never had that. I'd always had it. I'd been with a really, really nice man. And I'. But he wouldn't have been my best girlfriend because he didn't have the depth and the kind of the layers, the archeological layers that a woman or the lasagna that a woman's being would present as. And so then I saw this tall, handsome guy on Match on our Time. And he was spiritual and I thought over educated, but he seemed like he had a nice sense of humor. So I wrote to him and we rode a little back and forth. Well, it turned out he's allergic to cats. And I have a cat, and I live for the cat. For me, it goes, jesus, the cat, everyone else, right? And so I thought, well, I can't. My grandson lives with us. So I couldn't be with somebody who was allergic to the cat because I'd have to go to his house all the time. And I basically don't like to leave my house. And so we sort of. It didn't turn into anything. About four months later, I saw this really attractive man with beautiful face and a profile. And I wrote and I said, oh, I love your profile. And he wrote back, you already rejected me. I think I'm not Jesusy enough. And I wrote back, I could care less how Jesus you are. It was just the cat. And he said, well, I have lived with cats. I am violently allergic, but if you put brewer's yeast in their kibble after a week, I won't be very allergic to the cat. And I thought, oh, that's a trick. It's a trick. That's a hack. And so I thought he was just either trying to get me to do whatever or he needed an agent or something. And we got together, and we've never been apart for a single day unless one of us has been out of town. And that was coming up on 10 years ago. So that was how we met. Cute. Now I'm gonna segue into.

[B]

And I love that.

[D]

I know. And he would be my best girlfriend.

[B]

Yeah, he would. He just loves. He loves to chat. You guys have shared interests. He loves the bigness of you. You don't have to dim your light around him.

[D]

And he loves God and It's not quite the same, but it'. You know, it's so much the same.

[B]

Is that true that you wouldn't have minded if he didn't love God?

[D]

It would have been hard for me if he didn't have God in his life, because it would have been like not speaking English. But what he is is, I would say, more Eastern. He has more Eastern traditions in him. But one of us will be writing. He's a very accomplished writer, and he might come in and say, can we talk about spirit? And I'll go, yeah. And he'll write down. Usually it's me saying, can we talk about spirit? Can we talk about the soul? And then I'll scribble down and then steal it all. Or he'll do the same. And so we have this. We jam. You know, we do these endless jams and riff. Because on the first or second. First date, I think we both found out how much time we'd both spent with dying people. He was a hospice volunteer. And I've had many, many people who have died. And I've been with many people because their families have asked me in, because I'm not afraid of it, you know, because I went through it with my dad and Pammy and a lot of people by now. And we talked about that. Well, who can you talk to? Like a date? And when he, oh, yeah, I'm a hospice volunteer. I went, you've got to be kidding.

[B]

You're like a.

[D]

And then we both wanted. We both had decided we wanted to play Ripple at our memorial services. And so then three years later, he asked me to marry him, and we played Ripple for our processional.

[B]

I mean, it's so kind of getting back to what we said in the beginning. It's such a good reminder to remember that we have not met all the people we're supposed to meet. We have not loved all the people we're supposed to love. Like, life is still, like, if we are lucky enough to be talking today.

[D]

I know.

[B]

Like, I thought about this thing when I woke up today that. That I haven't hanging in my house. And I thought of you, which is that Dali. Very famous Dalai Lama quote. Like, every morning when you wake up, think to yourself, I am so fortunate to have woken up. I have one precious life. Like, it's just basically like, if you are still around, you're still around.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

So you and Neil wrote a book. Good writing. And the book is about. About, you know.

[D]

Good writing.

[B]

Yeah. About kind of like, I really like it because it is. It's like, Neil's very smart and helpful ways to get your sentences better. And then Ann comes in to say, this reminds me of something. And wait a second. It's like listening to a conversation.

[D]

Yeah, it is a conversation.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[D]

The subtitle of good writing is 36 rules to improve your sentences. And Neil had them on our first date. And I've been teaching writing since before Milton Berle, you know, and as my father would say. And he had these rules because he was a journalist for 10 years at the Bergen County Record. And they were all rules. Like, you know, like, layer your sentences, bring in the sense, take out the boring stuff. I forgot what rule it is. But, you know, write from good verbs. You don't need to say, Amy walked across the studio. You'd say, Amy staggered across the studio. Amy tiptoed. Amy slunk across the studio. Amy dancer, you know, and they were all brilliant rules. So then about two years ago, he said, oh, I'm turning those rules into a book. I said, oh, that's great. He's a wonderful writer. So he wrote sort of meditations on each of the rules. And then I became convinced that somewhere in this book there was a place for me. And I sort of tugged on his shoulder one day, I said, you know, I know something about writing. And I wrote a very successful book called Once. And I said, I'd really love to annotate your rules, you know, and lighten it up a little. I mean, his rules are great. And so I would come in and then I'd write my meditations, which would frequently point out that he is over educated. And there are rules that I think people can ignore. And instead, in my experience, what might

[B]

work better is, well, I like your. The challenger in me likes the idea of, like, someone having a rule and then someone getting to poke the rule. Like, and a good rule can. Can stand the poking.

[D]

Totally.

[B]

Okay. We do this thing on the POD where we ask somebody who is a friend of yours or a fan of yours or someone who loves your work or loves our guest to ask them a question. And I really thought about who to ask for this, and. And I realized I'm like, I should just ask my old friend because my old friend Tina Fey is a huge fan of you.

[D]

Oh, she is.

[B]

And she's an incredible writer. She's one of the best writers I know. And her and I have talked about you and your books and your writing.

[D]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And so Tina and I were talking about you. Just. I hope your ears were burning in a Good way.

[D]

Thank you.

[B]

But we were talking. Well, behind your back, and we were talking about the ways in which you. Your book provides comfort. And your books, your work, your posts, all of it feel like it is a way in which. In a world with so little comfort, that you keep doing that for us, and we're so grateful for it. And women pass around your work like what I imagine they did with medicine back in the day. It's really, really special.

[D]

Thank you.

[B]

And I'm thrilled that she wanted to talk about you and. And to me about you. So she had some questions for you.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. Tina was, like, wanted me to give you some. Would you rather.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

Would you rather only eat pasta with butter for the rest of your life or you can have anything you want to eat at any time, but all of your meals have to be served on a moving bus?

[D]

Imposter.

[B]

Okay. Would you rather be allowed to reread books you've read and that be the only thing that you're allowed to read, or only new things and never look back?

[D]

I read only books I've read and loved.

[B]

Okay. Okay. We have answered some of these for you. You tell. Hopefully you'll get it right.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

And if you were a color, what color would you.

[D]

Lavender.

[B]

Oh, we both got it wrong. We both said the same color.

[D]

What'd you say?

[B]

We both said like a orange. Like a sunset orange or a burnt orange.

[D]

No, I wouldn't, because I don't look good in that color. I only like colors that I look good in.

[B]

Okay, that's true, Tina. We got it wrong. So, lavender. Okay, if you were a breakfast food, what do you think you would be?

[D]

Oatmeal.

[B]

Yeah, she nailed it. Tina said some kind of porridge.

[D]

Yeah, I love oatmeal.

[B]

If you were a holiday, what would you be?

[D]

I love Easter.

[B]

We should have picked that one.

[D]

Yeah, I heard a great line or read it somewhere. It said, we are Easter people living in a Good Friday world. And I love that so much because it's such a Good Friday world. It's.

[B]

So what does that mean, a Good Friday world?

[D]

Good Friday world is where they crucify Christ and it's dark and the sky turns black and there's no hope anywhere. And all we see is power and evil and corruption and cruelty. And then two days later, we see the spring, we see resurrection, we see. So, you know, the cross looked like a big win for the Romans. And then two days later, no, it's Jesus and Mary going, we're okay. You're okay. Come with Us.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. What kind of house pet would you be?

[D]

A cat.

[B]

Yeah, we got that, right.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

A specific kind of cat.

[D]

No.

[B]

And what is the best. What do you love about cats?

[D]

I just love that. That's like having a little monkey living at your house. And they're so pathetically needful of your love, even though they pretend they are. Oh, yeah. My cat is an embarrassment. She is so desperate for. And also she's standoffish and I mean, depending on their mood. Yeah. But I just. I always had cats and I always knew that if I could find the cat, I was going to be okay. I wasn't alone anymore. Dogs are too easy. I mean, dogs love. I'm not going to name names, but dogs love it.

[B]

But cats, you don't know where they are.

[D]

No. It's awful.

[B]

And I don't like that.

[A]

I want.

[D]

I wrote a piece about that in one of these books about. I was going to get buttons made that said the kitten is not dead. The kitten is in the living room. Because I went through the kitten is dead with Neil, and he.

[B]

Remember that?

[D]

He kept saying, no, the kitten's not dead. The kitten's hiding. The kitten's probably in the living room.

[B]

The hiding is stressful for me.

[D]

It's a nightmare.

[B]

I like the pet that comes out to greet you, but I understand. And then what day of the week would you be?

[D]

I love Sunday mornings. Not because I'm going to church, because it's Sunday morning and it's the Sabbath and you are commanded to do as little as possible. And I believe rest is a sacred act. And I. You know, it's the end of the week and it's just such a luxurious, warm blanket of a day for. For me.

[B]

And. And as the people that are listening, like, Sunday blues is a real thing, and it's definitely a thing when I have kids getting ready for Monday for school, like that. That feeling of dread. We talked about it a little bit. How do you. Can you give us all. As. As I'm. I'm asking you to do this, even though I. I don't want to put you on the spot. But like this feeling, like, what do you do with your dread? How do you break it apart so it doesn't get so big and snowball into something big?

[D]

I do a lot of breath work.

[B]

I always forget about that.

[D]

I do breath work and I pray and I call a girlfriend or I go find Neil or my son and I say, do you have a minute? And then I say, what's going on? And as soon as you share it with someone, it's lessened. That's the only way I've ever been able to let go, is to share it with somebody. And then it gets so much. It's dark dilutes it.

[B]

It's so true. And it always goes back to that simple thing of, like, just not trying to go in your space capsule and take care of it by yourself.

[D]

Right. Figuring out is a terrible slogan. It's a terrible slogan. And breath is holy Spirit, and breath is life. And I pray. I say, you know, I wrote a book called Help. Thanks. Wow. The Three Essential prayers. And I'm usually saying one of them, help me, help me. I am in a hole too deep to get myself. Or I'm going, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you that you got me out of that hole. Thank you. Or I'm stepping outside, I'm going, wow, it's so beautiful in the world. It's so fresh and blue. And things are starting to bloom in California. The paper whites are blooming. And so I'm always saying one of those three prayers. Yeah, they always work.

[B]

Well, I'm going to say, wow. Back to you, Annie.

[D]

Thank you.

[B]

Thank you for doing this. You're so. I mean, I'm just. Thank you for my presence.

[D]

You're welcome.

[B]

Thank you for my hand.

[D]

Yeah. With Mary and the goat.

[B]

Give it up for Mary. Shout out to Mary.

[D]

Shout out to Mary. Yeah,

[B]

shout out to Mary. The original pop star.

[D]

Right? Right. Who told that little boy, Diego, don't be afraid. I'm here. And that's what she says now. Says it to us both right now. Don't be afraid. I. I'm here. You're okay.

[B]

Oh, Ann LaMotte, everybody. Thank you for being here.

[D]

Thank you.

[B]

It means so much. Thank you, Anne Lamott, so much for joining us and for today's polar plunge. I feel like I feel compelled to say what Ann would say, which is to remind you that good behavior and good action can be small and tender. It doesn't have to be a choice. Giant, I don't know, sweeping gesture. So on behalf of Anne's good works and in an attempt to just kind of, I don't know, put a drop of goodness, a molecule of goodness back in the world, maybe mow your neighbor's lawn or shovel their driveway or leave a gift for them, maybe put a little gift on your neighbor's porch today, cookies that you made. I. I don't know. And write from your secret admirer. But that might be weird. So don't do it like that, but you know what I mean. Just do something for your neighbor. Think about people around you. Do something small, as Ann would say. Give them water, give them a cup of tea. Say hello to people who perhaps haven't been said hello to today. Ann always reminds me to do that. I'll do the same and pass it on. Thanks for listening to Good Hang. See you soon.

[A]

Bye.

[B]

You've been listening to Good Hang. The executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss Berman and me, Amy Poehler. The show is produced by the Ringer and Paper Kite. For the Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, cat Spillane, Kaia McMullen and Alaya Zaneris. For Paper Kite, production by Sam Green, Joel Lovell and Jenna Weiss Berman. Original music by Amy Miles.