Lena Dunham

Summary

Good Hang with Amy Poehler

Episode: Lena Dunham

Date: May 26, 2026
Podcast by: The Ringer
Host: Amy Poehler
Guest: Lena Dunham, with a special segment featuring Natalie Portman

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Episode Overview

This episode is a warm, funny, and deep dive into friendship, creativity, and self-discovery, featuring a candid conversation between Amy Poehler and Lena Dunham. The two discuss Lena’s 40th birthday, her new memoir "Famsick," the myth of productivity, the creative process, Nora Ephron’s mentorship, and the messy realities of female friendship. Special guest Natalie Portman joins early in the episode to share what it’s like working with Lena and to ask the all-important: “What’s the best kind of pig to get?” This is a celebration of aging, personal wisdom, and the joy of finding your own kind of “good hang.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Friendship & Collaborations: Amy, Lena & Natalie Portman

(02:36–11:14)

• Natalie Portman Joins the Call: Amy welcomes Natalie, congratulating her on her new film and summer bob.

  • The three banter about hair, Rashida Jones (“she’s my wife too”), and the supposed link between head size and success in comedy/acting.
  • “At SNL...they'll measure your head, and supposedly, historically, the bigger the head, the bigger the paycheck.” – Amy Poehler (05:00)

• On Lena as a Director

  • Natalie raves: “She’s the best director I’ve...one of the best, if not the best I’ve worked with. She’s so on point. The notes she gives are so astute and specific...extremely nurturing and generous and kind to everyone on set.” (06:22)
  • Amy and Natalie discuss the rarity of specific, positive feedback in creative environments.

• Pig Chat & Wild Boar Hybrids

  • Natalie asks Lena: “What is the best kind of pig to get?” (08:26)
  • They launch into an unexpectedly hilarious discussion about pig breeds, the dangers of wild boar-pig hybrids in France, and pig parenting responsibility.
  • “You never hear about, like, really nice boars.” – Amy (09:53)

• French Farewell: Natalie signs off with an earnest, slightly mangled French phrase for Amy: “Tete et petite, mais ton coeur est grand.” (10:37)

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2. Turning Forty & Embracing Invisibility

(11:48–13:14)

• The Relief of Aging

  • Lena shares her feelings about entering her 40s:
    “There’s like a...pressure that’s dissipating and some kind of attention that you no longer either feel you are supposed to be seeking or are getting. It’s a huge relief. Sometimes it’s like...gaining a cloak of invisibility.” (12:07)
  • Both agree they prefer the self-certainty of age over the anxiety of youth.

• Releasing “Shoulds”

  • Lena notes she was obsessed with “shoulds and musts and ought-tos,” but now can comfortably claim her own preferences.

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3. Introversion, Socializing, & The Ideal ‘Good Hang’

(13:14–15:07)

• Both discuss being perceived as extroverts but actually needing plenty of alone (or close-quarters) recharge time.
• “I like to hang out on the couch or on bed with one friend. Two friends. Maybe we order some food, we hang out with some animals, we gab.” – Lena (13:21)
• Amy: “You present as such an extrovert...but you are secretly quite introverted.” (14:13)

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4. Creativity, Overworking, and Learning to Give Less

(15:07–20:41)

• Surviving the Press Cycle

  • Lena reflects on the irony of writing a book about the cost of publicity, then having to promote it:
    “Maybe the most truthful thing would have been to just drop it like a surprise album and then go, I'll be in my bedroom for six months. You guys figure it out.” (15:27)
  • Her mom’s “50% rule”: “She always says that I could give 50% less energy in situations and everything will be fine.” (16:22)
  • Amy recognizes the pattern: “A lot of women overdeliver in every way...then they’re exhausted and...resentful.” (16:51)

• Pig Wisdom & “Spoiled Pig Syndrome”

  • Lena links pig ownership to relationships:
    “If you give your pig treats, but you don't ever ask them to do a trick for those treats...then they start to become aggressive, they start to destroy things. They get an attitude because they've got spoiled pig syndrome.” (17:56)
  • Her brother’s quip: “You mean like what you’ve done to everybody you’ve ever dated?” (18:52)
  • Amy and Lena agree: “At the end of the day, you have a spoiled pig and it's nobody's fault but your own.” (19:08)

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5. The Creative Process – Writing "Famsick"

(19:08–20:41)

• Lena describes the long, honest process with her editor Andy Ward.
  • “It isn’t gonna be something that is worth the paper that it’s printed on if I don’t...try to understand how I got there. And it turns out that takes time.” (20:41)

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6. Mentorship: Nora Ephron’s Legacy

(20:41–23:13)

• Lena shares how Ephron’s mentorship felt maternal and practical, filled with tips on everything from bagels to “the right Patagonia lightweight zip puffer cardigan.”
• “She showed up for other women, younger women, in this way that was so mind blowing.” (21:37)
• Amy: “Now that millennials are turning 40, you’re becoming a mentor...Figuring out how to be a good mentor is really interesting.” (22:49)

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7. The Productivity Myth & Chronic Illness

(24:10–27:46)

• Amy and Lena discuss how American culture equates productivity with self-worth—referencing documentaries about Madonna and Lady Gaga, and Lena’s own journey with chronic illness.
• “Hollywood has not done anything to make us think that isn’t the approach...the behavior remains the same.” – Lena (25:14)
• Lena developed her own coping mechanisms, including a “psychotic to do list” system finished tasks get a trophy emoji as the treat for doing the trick. (27:25)
• “When I finish something, I put the trophy emoji next to it. My little treat.” – Lena (27:46)

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8. Sleep Anxiety & Bed Life

(28:07–31:21)

• Lena’s lifelong bedtime anxieties (shared by her whole family):
  “As children, we started to get scared to go to sleep around 4pm...I might just pass away in my sleep.” (28:14)
• Amy attempts to sleep-coach Lena with tough love; Lena details the chaos of rabbits leaping on her face at night.

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9. Comedy Obsession & Watching SNL as a Kid

(31:21–32:23)

• Lena recounts her teen years:
  “I would plug in the headphones from like American Airlines and sit this close to the television and take notes on SNL. Oh, Lena, so sad.” (31:21)
• Her failed attempt to fake her age to get SNL tickets, and the ensuing guilt.

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10. The Nostalgia & Stress Bomb of “Girls”

(32:23–36:42)

• Amy notes the resurgence of “Girls” and Lena reflects on why people find comfort in it, despite her own stressful memories from that period.
• “To me, Girls is like a stress bomb...it’s a stressful show...but it really relaxes people.” (34:10)
• Lena has never rewatched the series; Amy suggests doing so could be healing “a concrete way to be more gentle to yourself.” (35:32)

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11. What People Got Wrong About "Girls"

(37:10–39:03)

• Critics either thought they weren’t in on the joke, or that Lena was satirizing her own generation.
• “People underestimate young women all the time.” – Lena (37:13)
• Dishing out advice on negative attention: “Just don’t look at it. But I couldn’t take that advice then.” (38:36)
• Amy: “The way people think about you is none of your business.” (38:44)

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12. Female Friendship: Joy & Fear

(39:03–42:08)

• Lena: “The thing about women is I’m obsessed with them. And part of why I’m obsessed with them is also because I’m scared of them, because they’re too smart.” (39:23)
• Amy: “There were times when I would watch Girls and I’d be like, are they friends?”
  Lena: “The answer was often no.” (39:52)
• They discuss growing out of emotionally exhaustive, over-analytical female friendships.

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13. Lightning Round: Cultural Hot Takes

(50:25–57:01)

• TikTok:
  Lena loves niche subcultures and women at work, but notes: “A little taste of fame makes us all sick.” (51:38)
• Diet Coke:
  “If you do a trick, you get a Diet Coke.” (52:22)
• Meg Stalter:
  “She’s such a funny, special person.” (52:41)
• Fashion trends:
  Lena’s style: “Bratty 5 year old with a credit card.” (53:07)
• Reality TV:
  Lena: “I love reality television,” especially calming, unscripted British shows.
• Great British Bake-Off:
  Lena turned down a celeb Bake-Off after realizing the intensity of the prep required: “Making jam. Making jam.” (56:07)
• Theme Parks, Robots, Cathect:
  Theme parks are a “no,” robots would get anthropomorphized (new word: “cathect” — to invest emotional energy).

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14. Pet Pigs: Breeds & Best Practices

(63:00–66:14)

• On Pig Breeds:
  “If someone tells you you are getting a teacup pig, you are not. A mini pig is any pig under 500 pounds. A ‘teacup’ doesn’t exist.” (63:39)
• Meishan pigs are Lena’s favorite—“chill, good beginner pigs,” and famous for being great moms.
• “A solo pig’s not nice...that’s why we got Cherry.” (65:14)
• “It was an arranged marriage...now she spends a lot of time sitting on his head.” (66:08)

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15. On Directing Natalie Portman in "Good Sex"

(61:38–62:56)

• Lena is effusive: “Natalie Portman is...the cool girl’s cool girl, the thinking woman’s ingenue...every single day I went, ‘that’s insane what you’re doing right now.’” (61:39–62:56)
• Working with Natalie and Rashida Jones felt “like everything you’d hope.”

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16. Final Reflections on Friendship & Growth

(66:21–66:48)

• Amy and Lena celebrate their long friendship and the importance of true “good hangs.”
• Lena to Amy: “You are a really—it's a well-named. I said to someone that I was going on this podcast, I was like, and it’s not a lie. She’s a good hang.” (66:35)

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Notable Quotes

• Natalie Portman: “She’s so on point...she pays attention to everything. And she doesn’t hesitate to give compliments.” (06:22)
• Amy Poehler: “I wear a young boy’s hat. I can wear a young man’s hat.” (05:44)
• Lena Dunham: “At the end of the day, you have a spoiled pig and it’s nobody’s fault but your own.” (19:08)
• Lena Dunham: “Sometimes it’s like...gaining a cloak of invisibility.” (12:07)
• Amy Poehler: “The way people think about you is none of your business.” (38:44)
• Lena Dunham: “A little taste of fame makes us all sick.” (51:38)
• Lena Dunham: “A solo pig’s not nice. No.” (65:14)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• Natalie Portman Joins: 02:36–11:14
• Turning 40/Embracing Invisibility: 11:48–13:14
• Good Hang/Introversion: 13:14–15:07
• Overdelivering, Spoiled Pig Syndrome: 15:07–20:41
• Creative Process/Book: 19:08–20:41
• Nora Ephron Mentorship: 20:41–23:13
• Productivity Myth & Chronic Illness: 24:10–27:46
• Sleep Anxiety/Bedtime Rituals: 28:07–31:21
• Comedy Obsession/SNL: 31:21–32:23
• “Girls” Resurgence/Nostalgia: 32:23–36:42
• Misconceptions about “Girls”: 37:10–39:03
• Lightning Round of Hot Takes: 50:25–57:01
• Pig Breeds and Parenting: 63:00–66:14
• Friendship Farewells: 66:21–66:48

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Memorable Moments

• Amy and Natalie’s playful “Rashida is my wife” rivalry.
• Lena’s candid bed/sleeping rituals, complete with rabbits launching at her face.
• Lena’s “spoiled pig syndrome” metaphor for relationships.
• The inside scoop on celebrity Bake-Off and why Lena bow(ed) out.
• Introduction of the word “cathect.”
• Expert pig advice (and saving their baby teeth “for a rainy day”).
• Amy’s parting affirmation: "Come on over to the other side. It's so great over here." (On turning 40)

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Closing Thoughts

This episode is a prime example of chemistry between long-time friends, brimming with humor and lived experience. It offers listeners both cozy reassurance for getting older and razor-sharp observations on friendship, art, and being a woman in the public eye. Whether you’re here for industry insights, pig tips, or just the pleasure of witty banter, this is an episode that delivers a true “good hang.”

Transcript

[Amy Poehler]

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Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Good Hang. We have Lena Dunham with us today. Lena, actress, writer, producer, creator of Girls, best selling author of her memoir Famsick. We are gonna get into it with Len. We are going to talk about Nora Ephron. We're going to talk about the productivity myth and how we're all suffering because of it. We're going to talk about whether or not one should go on Great British Bake Off. Is it actually worth it? We are going to get into so much good stuff today. We had a great conversation and we always like to talk to somebody who knows our guest who has a question for our guest and wants to speak well behind their back. And we spoke to Natalie Portman, classy actress, Natalie, you know her from the Black Swan, from rapping on snl, from a little indie called Star Wars. And she and Lena are working on a rom com together. So let's get Natalie on the horn. I believe we're talking to her from outside of the country. So bonjour or bon soir, Natalie. This episode is presented by Hilton. Guys, you know what vacation perfectionism is? It's the pressure to get your family's summer vacation booked and make it perfect and memorable. Stressful, right? Don't worry because the team at Hilton takes care of what matters. So you can exhale and disconnect. They've got over 9,000 hotels around the world including amazing resorts and all inclusive options. So you'll definitely find the stay that you're looking for. When you want your summer vacation to feel like a vacation, it matters where you stay. But book [e-mail] Hilton for the stay.

[Lena Dunham]

Hi.

[Amy Poehler]

Hi, Amy.

[Natalie Portman]

Nice to see you.

[Amy Poehler]

You too. Thanks for talking to us today. First of all, congrats on the summer, Bob.

[Natalie Portman]

Thank you.

[Lena Dunham]

You too.

[Natalie Portman]

I mean, well, you're kind of, you've been, you've been doing it for, for a while, right?

[Amy Poehler]

Well, I have. I have, you know, visually like no option with my Hair. My hair is kind of. My hair just cuts itself. Okay. So first of all, congratulations on all the things that are happening for you, including this new film that you're in with Mark Ruffalo and my wife, Rashida Jones, and many others.

[Natalie Portman]

She's my wife too, so I'm glad we share that in common.

[Amy Poehler]

I'd like to. I'd like to talk about that. Because we can't share her.

[Natalie Portman]

She's a polygamist.

[Amy Poehler]

Well, I'd like to get her on the horn and make her pick. That's fair.

[Natalie Portman]

That's fair.

[Amy Poehler]

That would actually probably be her nightmare if we called Rashida right now. Like me or Natalie.

[Natalie Portman]

Exactly.

[Amy Poehler]

She'll be like, ezra, I do want to talk about your film and working with Lena, but. But by the way, have you been listening to the Lonely island to Seth Meyer's podcast at all?

[Natalie Portman]

No, but I've heard amazing things about it.

[Amy Poehler]

Highly recommend their episode about yout Rap. It's so. It's so good and it's so funny and it's, like, very in depth about how it all came together.

[Natalie Portman]

They're the best. And that was so fun.

[Amy Poehler]

That was. And it just. It's such a time capsule too, because it's just like a time in the 2000s. So that's the birth of YouTube.

[Natalie Portman]

Like, so wild.

[Amy Poehler]

You've got short hair. So exciting.

[Natalie Portman]

Yeah. Post Head shaving.

[Lena Dunham]

Oh, wow.

[Amy Poehler]

That was a grow in. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, man. You know, you're not really an actress unless you have one head shaving. Like, you got to shave your head once.

[Natalie Portman]

Have you ever shaved your head?

[Lena Dunham]

No.

[Amy Poehler]

I would. I have kind of a small head, so I would be.

[Natalie Portman]

That's surprising. I wouldn't guess that.

[Lena Dunham]

Oh, really?

[Amy Poehler]

Thank you so much. Does my head look larger?

[Lena Dunham]

Perfectly normal sized, you know.

[Amy Poehler]

Well, you know the whole theory that, like, the bigger the head, the more successful you are. Do you know this theory?

[Natalie Portman]

Oh, really? No, I don't.

[Lena Dunham]

When?

[Amy Poehler]

At snl. I'm sure this happened to you too, when you were there. Like, they'll measure your head, you know, for prosthetics and stuff like that. And so you get a sense of who has really big heads and support. Supposedly, historically, the bigger the head, the bigger the paycheck.

[Natalie Portman]

No way. That's really funny.

[Amy Poehler]

Now that I've brought this up, you're gonna start to notice. You're gonna start to notice, like, wow, he has a huge head. Like, he's. That's why he's running a country or whatever. You're gonna notice it.

[Natalie Portman]

That's so funny. But I mean, I feel like you're pretty successful. You.

[Amy Poehler]

Amy, thank you so much. Maybe. Maybe I'm a small headed success.

[Natalie Portman]

Maybe. Yeah, maybe you're an outlier.

[Amy Poehler]

But I do wear a. I wear a young boy's hat. I can wear a young man's hat.

[Natalie Portman]

That's very lucky.

[Lena Dunham]

Very lucky.

[Amy Poehler]

So I'm interviewing Lena today.

[Lena Dunham]

Yes.

[Amy Poehler]

And you know, I'm kind of getting her after a lot of interviews. Like she's been kind of on, on tour, online, really out there. And I've known her for a long time and I'm exc to talk about the different ways that I've known her, but I've never known her as a director. I've never worked with her in that way. And I'm curious what kind of director she is and what it was like to work with her in that way.

[Natalie Portman]

She's the best director I've. One of, one of the best, if not the best I've worked with. She's so on point. Like, the notes she gives are so like astute and specific and like she pays attention to everything. And she doesn't also like, hesitate to give compliments too, about very specific things along with like, maybe try this different. And she's extremely nurturing and generous and kind to everyone on set at all times. Like, I would go home every day being like, how does she have the energy? Because the amount of like generosity and kindness and thoughtfulness she puts out all day to everyone is like pretty miraculous. So the very like the environment on set is incredible because everyone's just so happy.

[Amy Poehler]

Not a surprise to hear that. And so nice to hear that. And that's a really interesting specific that you said, which is that she will compliment something you've done. Like that isn't always the case. Like, it's nice when people notice something that you try and say, I noticed it.

[Natalie Portman]

Exactly. And, and it's specific because a lot of people will be like, oh, good job. Or like, that was a really nice take or something. But like, I like how you like accented the, you know, word in that. That was really funny in that line, you know, very. A very specific thing that she notices. Or like that face you made in response to Rashida or whatever. Like that was great. Or it's, it's not just a general, like, you can tell she's really just watching so carefully and sharply and her ideas are so good and she comes up with like brilliant new lines all the time. You know, the way only great comedy minds like yourself can Do.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay. So do you have a question for our guest today, Lena, that you think might be a good one to ask her?

[Natalie Portman]

My question for her is what? Well, I had one kind of one that I personally want to know, which is what is the best kind of pig to get?

[Amy Poehler]

Okay, so you're thinking about getting a pig?

[Natalie Portman]

Actually can't. And where I live, but. But I dream about it in the future one day. And she has a lot of knowledge about this, so. And I like to hear her talk about pigs.

[Amy Poehler]

That is a great question, because I do enjoy pigs. They are really cute.

[Natalie Portman]

Yeah. So, Lena, what is the best pig?

[Amy Poehler]

And I say get the pig.

[Lena Dunham]

You know what I mean?

[Amy Poehler]

Even if you're not allowed to have it.

[Natalie Portman]

So the problem is, is that where I rent, there's wild boars.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, yeah.

[Natalie Portman]

Apparently the wild boars mate with pigs and make a very dangerous hybrid. And so it's illegal in that area.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay.

[Natalie Portman]

Because there's some.

[Amy Poehler]

Did not expect that to be the

[Natalie Portman]

vicious hybrid baby pig. And I don't want to be responsible. I think I'll get kicked out of France, so.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay. It's very smart. That is. That is actually. That's very responsible parenting. That's responsible pig parenting. And the. I have a thousand questions about the wild boars.

[Natalie Portman]

I mean, it's the main topic of conversation.

[Amy Poehler]

You never hear about, like, really nice boars.

[Natalie Portman]

Well, I think, like, domesticated boars are pigs, right?

[Amy Poehler]

I'm not ready to say that. I don't know.

[Natalie Portman]

I don't know.

[Amy Poehler]

We should ask Lena. We could ask Lena, because the boar, the big boar, is going to come for us in a way that I'm not ready for. Okay.

[Lena Dunham]

I'm going to ask her the difference

[Amy Poehler]

between boars and pigs. Natalie, thank you so much for doing this. It really means a lot. And before we go, would you just mind saying in French to me, have a wonderful day, Amy. And your head may be small, but your heart is large.

[Natalie Portman]

Tte, TTE et petite. Mais tonqueur et grand.

[Lena Dunham]

Ah,

[Natalie Portman]

the France is gonna murder me for that.

[Amy Poehler]

They're gonna send the boars. They're gonna send the board, they're gonna send the bores. You're gonna hear a ding dong right now. There's gonna be four French bores. Language bores. No. Thank you for doing that. It sounds beautiful. Anything you say sounds beautiful and especially in French. Thank you, Natalie.

[Natalie Portman]

Thanks.

[Amy Poehler]

It's really nice to see you. Thanks for doing us. Yeah, you too. Okay, you too, honey. Bye. Enjoy.

[Natalie Portman]

Lena, give her a kiss for me.

[Amy Poehler]

This Episode is brought to you by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. That's smart. Not checking whether your guest ordered food and is expecting a delivery to arrive. Mid podcast record. Lesson learned. Yeah, checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary subject to terms, conditions and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Company and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. Thank you, Lena. Thank you for being here. It's really good to see you.

[Lena Dunham]

It's really good to see you.

[Amy Poehler]

It's been a long time.

[Lena Dunham]

I know. I've missed you.

[Amy Poehler]

And congrats. You just celebrated your 40th birthday.

[Lena Dunham]

Had my 40th birthday.

[Amy Poehler]

How does it feel to turn the corner?

[Lena Dunham]

I've been trying to gather wisdom from the women that I know who have been 40 and seem to have liked it. I think it kind of rules.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah, I like it. I like getting older much more than being young.

[Lena Dunham]

You don't know anything better than different than being young when you're young. So you don't realize, but there's like a some kind of pressure that's dissipating and some kind of attention that you no longer either feel you are supposed to be seeking or are getting. And it's a huge relief. I said, like, sometimes it's like you're. I'm in the good way. Gaining a cloak of invisibility.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah.

[Lena Dunham]

And also I was so. Even though people seem to think of me as someone who's really, like, marching to the beat of my own drum or whatever, I was so dominated by shoulds and musts and ought tos, and now I feel really okay going. That's not really my thing. That's not for me. So glad if it's for you. Not for me. I mean, even just realizing, like, I don't really like to go to parties.

[Amy Poehler]

Dude, I don't like to go to parties.

[Lena Dunham]

It's not even that I want to be asleep early. I just want to be in bed early to stay up late doing what I want to do in bed.

[Amy Poehler]

Well, I want to talk to you about your sleep.

[Natalie Portman]

Okay.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay. Because I have some thoughts.

[Lena Dunham]

Okay.

[Amy Poehler]

I would love to get them because we talk.

[Lena Dunham]

We, we, we.

[Amy Poehler]

You talk about it in the book and I can't wait to talk about it. But when you don't like going to a party, what would be your ideal gathering?

[Natalie Portman]

Great.

[Lena Dunham]

What would be my good hang to bring it back?

[Amy Poehler]

Thank you.

[Lena Dunham]

I like to hang out on the couch or on bed with one friend. Two friends.

[Amy Poehler]

One or two.

[Lena Dunham]

Maybe we order some food, we hang out with some animals. We gab. Then they leave early enough that you have time to maybe, like, potter around, move one pile of things from one corner of the room to another, then read a book and maybe watch a little bit of a murder documentary and then fall to sleep and text them

[Amy Poehler]

and be like, that was fun. Yes.

[Lena Dunham]

And be like, I love being your friend.

[Amy Poehler]

I wish we were still together. But you're very happy that you're, like, both on your mats.

[Lena Dunham]

Yes, totally. That's exactly what I like. Or I like, like when I hang out with my nuclear family, and I like when we all four of us read on different tufted surfaces near each other, and then everyone sort of, like, puts themselves to bed. We parallel play, and then everyone puts themselves to bed.

[Amy Poehler]

I mean, I bet you get this a lot, and you talk about it a little bit in your book. Like, you present as such. Such an extrovert.

[Lena Dunham]

Right.

[Amy Poehler]

And I relate. I present very extroverted, too. But I. From what you've written about that, you are secretly quite introverted.

[Lena Dunham]

Yes.

[Amy Poehler]

And it's kind of hard to. You're in an extroverted business, and you like to talk, and you like to have other people talk. You want to draw that out of other people, too.

[Lena Dunham]

I love. I like to talk and I like to listen.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah, you. You love to have a conversation. I know that about you, and that is expensive. But it takes a very long time to realize that, especially if you're good at it.

[Lena Dunham]

Well, it's interesting. That's very beautifully put, but. And I've always found you to be exceedingly wise. Even I have always found you to be, despite your adorable little blonde Bob. You are a wise. Oh, my God.

[Natalie Portman]

Thank you.

[Amy Poehler]

I was talking about a Bob earlier.

[Lena Dunham]

You are a very wise lady. It's a Bob Summer after a party. I mean, I have to stare at the wall and dissociate for 18 hours minimum.

[Amy Poehler]

It actually leads me into my first question to you, which. You've been on a press tour. You've been talking nonstop with many people about your book, which is a very personal book. So now that you've done a bunch of these, what have you learned about how you like to talk about it? How can, like, how do you take care of yourself when you talk about it?

[Lena Dunham]

These are such good questions. You've done this before. I was like, it's a strange thing to write a book about what it cost you to go on press. Tours and talk about yourself and then go on a press tour and talk about it. Maybe the most truthful thing would have been to just drop it like a surprise album and then go, I'll be in my bedroom for six months. You guys figure it out. But at the same time, I really love. This is gonna sound. I really love books, but I really love books. And I really love. I feel really lucky that I got to write it. And really. And there's issues in it, like, you know, the trying to talk about how we kind of perceive and consume female celebrity, chronic illness, mental health stuff that's like. Feels like things that I am excited to get to talk about in the right way.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah.

[Lena Dunham]

But I had to really remind myself before going out when I was really tap dancing as hard as I could in my 20s, I went into every interview basically the way that I would have gone into, like every play date when I was in second grade, which was, I hope you want to be my friend and I hope you want to invite me back. My mom always called it. She always. She still does. She'll be like, 50% rule. Because she always says that I could give 50% less energy in situations and everything will be fine

[Amy Poehler]

because I have tried to give 25%. I mean, I really do feel like you're speaking to something really true. Not just women, obviously, but a lot of women over deliver. They over deliver in every way. And then they're exhausted and they match bitter and bitter. Well, of course I resent. I resent the things I do to myself.

[Lena Dunham]

It's going to sound like a detour, but it's not, which is that I have pet pigs and.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, we're going to talk about it.

[Lena Dunham]

To quote Lisa Rinna's memoir title, you better believe I'm gonna talk about it or whatever it's called. You know, I'm gonna talk about it.

[Amy Poehler]

And to quote Wanda Sykes book. Yeah, I said it. Continue.

[Lena Dunham]

But there is a thing when you're trained. When I got a pig, I realized, okay, this is not like a dog. This is not like a cat. I need to get some. I need to get a specialist in here to teach me how to do this. And there's a woman named Susan Magidson who is the preeminent pig trainer and rescue artist of our time.

[Amy Poehler]

Excellent.

[Lena Dunham]

And Susan has a zoom that she does every Monday night called for pig's sake, where all pig owners can get on and ask her questions. Susan. And at her farm, Ross Mill Farms, where she takes in all the pigs that people adopted because they thought they were so cute and little. And then they are £200 of attitude, of pure attitude. But one of the things that happens to house pigs is that they develop something called spoiled sps. Spoiled pig syndrome, which is. It is an. It is a well known condition wherein a pig starts to. If you ask your pig, say, if, say you give your pig treats, but you don't ever ask them to do a trick for those treats, right? Suddenly you ask them do anything, they're like, no, that's not the deal that we were in. And then they start to become aggressive, they start to destroy things. They get an attitude because they've got spoiled pig syndrome. And I told my brother about it and he was like, you mean like what you've done to everybody that you've ever dated?

[Amy Poehler]

Like you have the worst treats without the trick treats. Where's the trick, babe?

[Lena Dunham]

Where's the trick, babe? There is no trick. And he said, also it's. The thing about spoiled pig syndrome is at the end of the day, you have a spoiled pig and it's nobody's fault but your own.

[Amy Poehler]

That's the worst part I know is it always comes back to. I mean that. I would say that is the one thing about being over 40 is there's just less and less ability to kind of put the blame externally. Like you're like, oh, no, I know better. Thank God I know better. But fuck, now I know better. Okay, it took you eight years to write this book. How did you know when it was done?

[Lena Dunham]

Really good question. A really good question. So my editor, Andy Ward, is one of my most favorite people.

[Amy Poehler]

We love Andy Ward.

[Lena Dunham]

We live for Andy Ward. And he's just a good. He's a good man. I don't try to go around using the term girl dad a lot. I don't love it. But he is a girl dad. He's a girl dad to us all. And he's a writer dad. And he's just the greatest. And what I love is that a lot of people in this economy would just go, okay, there seems to be like enough gossip that maybe People magazine

[Amy Poehler]

would mention it right there, quotes that. We can get that out there.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah, we can get that out there.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay, it's ready.

[Lena Dunham]

And he really cares and he really pushed me to. You know, I started the book when I was three months out of rehab and I just thought, like, I'll jot off some of these experiences and then they will have left my body and I'll never have to think about it again. And it ended Up. Sort of the thing you said about having to look at yourself. I was like, this isn't gonna be something that is worth the paper that it's printed on if I don't. If I have to tell the story. And I also have to try to understand how I got there. Yeah. And it turns out that takes time.

[Amy Poehler]

And, you know, you've talked about. There's. There's so many things in the book. There's about. There's about. There's relationship breakups. There's tons of stuff about figuring out, like, you spoke of, like, how to participate in the system and how the system works for you and against you. And there's a lot of stuff about personal stuff about people that you work with. But I'm. I'm also interested in a couple of things, but. But I'm also interested in the way you speak about, like, looking for wisdom a little bit, especially in women that were a little older. I was really. I could have read a million pages about you and Nora Ephron. And we talk about her on this podcast a lot. I never had the pleasure to meet her, but you two would have really had a ball. Thank you for saying that. I would have loved to have met her. And I guess it's not a really deep question, but it kind of feels like it. It's like she gave you tips, decorating tips. She did, but that feels very. Just like, very maternal.

[Lena Dunham]

One of the ways that she showed care was she had this, like, incredible, incredible mental Rolodex of, here's where you get your bagels, and here's where you blow your hair out, and here's who should paint your walls, but the guy who paints your walls is different than the guy who paints your floors, like, giving you all the tools to live well. She said to me, you cannot shoot a movie without this very specific Patagonia lightweight. She was like, and don't get the medium weight. Get the lightweight zip puffer cardigan. You know, these things where she's just like, I have. I've been here for a while, and I've figured out she's curated her life. She's curated her life. It was ex. And she. And I felt like, how lucky am I to be the person that she has chosen to give this all of this incredible wisdom and information to? And when she died, I mean, there are hundreds of us. Somehow she found the time to do this. She would just see someone and think. I don't know if she thought, you know, they amused me enough that I can stand to have them around, or if she just thought they seemed like they need it, but she showed up for other women, younger women, in this way that was so mind blowing. And I think part of why she did it was because it. It also made her feel good.

[Amy Poehler]

Well, now that you're, like, now millennials are getting older, and welcome to the club, Millennials. I'm here to say it's not so bad, but now millennials are turning 40, like, and they're like, you're becoming a mentor. You have mentees, I'm sure. And I love what you said in your book about how you really try to not give that much advice, where you just try to say, like, I'm here and I'm available.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

Figuring out how to be a good mentor is really interesting.

[Lena Dunham]

I'm curious because I feel like sometimes I never want to get caught in the trap of thinking that I know better than they do. Like, if I see somebody doing something where I think that's going to really hurt you and.

[Amy Poehler]

And.

[Lena Dunham]

And damage. If I'm, like, have the opportunity to sort of put my arm out like a seatbelt, but at the same time, I don't think I could hear it when I was that age.

[Amy Poehler]

I feel like, to use a great metaphor, not my pig, not my farm. Like, you can't save anybody from themselves. I mean, you know, this is some Cody stuff we're talking about. Like, when you see somebody, it's like, what are you gonna be? Like? Don't do it. Like, what are you gonna say? Don't do that job. Don't take it. Don't date that guy. Like, we all have to make these mistakes, and nobody listens when you do anyway.

[Lena Dunham]

If someone has a question and I can answer it, I am delighted. And I'm also always saying, and then you do exactly whatever you want, and I will be here cheering you on.

[Amy Poehler]

Speaking of that, the way you talk about the productivity myth in your book is it really spoke to me as a Gen Xer. So my gen grew up with, like, working girl, and you wear your sneakers on the subway and, like, hustle. Like, you know, and Madonna's documentary was like, I'm gonna play through the pain. And Lady Gaga's documentary was like, I have fibromyalgia, and I'm really suff. Totally different. And both showed this, like, version of, like, how to get through what you're getting through. But we got sold this idea that if you're not producing, you're not worthwhile. And I know you struggled with that too. What can you say about that, or what have you learned about that through the writing of this book or just through, like, living life?

[Lena Dunham]

Well, when I saw five Foot two, the Gaga documentary, that was one of the most emotional. I remember, I just kept rewinding because I'd never seen these things on camera before. And I always thought that if people found out what was going on with me physically behind the scenes, that they'd be like, well, this one's defective. We want a new one. I mean.

[Natalie Portman]

Yeah.

[Lena Dunham]

And Hollywood has not done anything to make us think that isn't.

[Amy Poehler]

That's right.

[Lena Dunham]

The approach. I mean, we maybe can. Can speak about things a little bit. Maybe a producer would not feel comfortable saying out loud, that one's defective. We want a new one. But the. But the behavior remains the same. And so there was a lot of time of reminding myself that all of these people's ideas of what a valuable life is, of the right way to spend your time, of how to prioritize your health versus the work, your health versus a press junket, didn't have to be mine. I remember once before a job, them going, so how do you. How long before you get sick do you usually know that it's gonna happen? And I was like. It never even occurred to me that I was like, sometimes I don't know, like, when it starts, I don't. I don't know what to say. There was this idea that you could almost, like, schedule your body's class.

[Amy Poehler]

Well, it's funny you say that, because my brain, like, what this book did, is it, like. Which I think good writing does, is it makes you think about, like, wait, how am I thinking about the world? And to your point, now what I'm realizing is what I want to do to extend the conversation is be like, ask people how did they do, their system? How do they work it? So that conversation you have with producers is really helpful.

[Lena Dunham]

I used to spend a lot of time thinking I was the only. I mean, it's that, you know, part of being young and looking around and thinking that everybody's facade is what's actually going on. Like, it took me a while to go, oh, just because somebody shows up in. In. Just showered in Lululemon sweat clothes with a big cup of coffee. For me, the idea of the kind of woman I'd never be was always someone who, like, brewed her own coffee and put it in.

[Amy Poehler]

In a. In a thing.

[Lena Dunham]

In a thing, in a yeti cup and got to work and was like, oh, because I like to do this in the Morning. And I get my blowout.

[Amy Poehler]

Like, I was like, when did you get a blowout? Like, who did it?

[Lena Dunham]

Who did it?

[Amy Poehler]

Where did you go?

[Lena Dunham]

Did you go to dry bar?

[Amy Poehler]

Did you do it yourself? Yeah.

[Lena Dunham]

Do you have someone who comes to

[Amy Poehler]

your house, day three of your blowout?

[Lena Dunham]

These are.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah, these are questions.

[Lena Dunham]

There's these things where we look at me and go, I will never be.

[Amy Poehler]

Everybody has. Everybody has it.

[Lena Dunham]

We all have it. And. And then I started to realize that's just their way of dealing. Like, I. I keep a really psychotic to do list. I have this very specific to do list system that is. I won't belabor, but it's taken years for me to find a system that works. I love my system. When I finish something, I put the trophy emoji next to it.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, for a little treat.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah, a little. My little treat.

[Amy Poehler]

And you did a trick.

[Lena Dunham]

Y. I did a trick and I get a treat. And my treat is that trophy emoji. And then at the end of the day, I'll carry over the things that didn't happen. And sometimes you have to put a different emoji that says, actually, I'm not gonna do that anymore. That's off the list. Or whatever.

[Amy Poehler]

I do. Wanna talk about your bed? You create so much in your bed. You love your bed.

[Lena Dunham]

I love my bed.

[Amy Poehler]

I love my bed too. I'm worried about your sleep. Talk to me about your sleep. Are you a night owl?

[Lena Dunham]

So this is gonna involve a little bit of history, which is that we have a congenital terror. We have a congenital. It's something where sleep and death get equated early in childhood. My father had it, my mother had it. Maybe that's why they fell in love and they passed it down to my brother and me. And as children, we started to get scared to go to sleep around 4pm so still today, a lot of people have that.

[Amy Poehler]

That they are very stressed about the fact that they have a good sleep.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah, it would be. I would start around 3pm to start to say, okay, what time do you think we're gonna put pajamas on? What. What do you think we're gonna do right before bed? Then my father would have to tell me, right? He'd have to take me and I'd say, is it a sock night or is it not a sock night? Because I was concerned. Maybe I'll wake up in the night with cold feet. But wouldn't it be horrible if I woke up and they were too warm? Then my. I miss Jenna Weissberman's giggle. It's the greatest. Then I would say, can you tell me a list of things we're going to do tomorrow to look forward to? Because I thought if I didn't.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah.

[Lena Dunham]

Have things to look forward to, I might just pass away in my sleep.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah. I would love to sleep train you. I would love to have a week in your house. I'm going to wear a nurse's uniform. Do you know what? I'm going to go. It's time. I'm going to go and I'm going to. And you're going to start your business. You're going to say what kind of socks?

[Lena Dunham]

What?

[Amy Poehler]

I'm going to go, no, no, no. Chop, chop.

[Lena Dunham]

If I told you what was actually happening in my bed, the level of I'm worried about the book, the various lights that are shining at me, the animals that are scooching around, the noise. I mean, twice a night my rabbits will hurl themselves up into the air and just land directly on my face.

[Amy Poehler]

Let's stop at rabbits. Let's start at rabbits. Let's ask the rabbits if they can sleep next to the bed.

[Lena Dunham]

Well, the rabbit. So, you know, the thing about rabbits is they're.

[Amy Poehler]

I don't know. The thing about.

[Lena Dunham]

You don't know. The thing is that they are crepus. They're most awake at dawn and at dusk.

[Amy Poehler]

I might have an old fashioned version of sleep, but I do think that one of the best things I did for myself is make sleep hygiene as important as other things.

[Lena Dunham]

Wow.

[Amy Poehler]

And it was very hard because, like you, I grew up with a total. Like, I wanted to stay up late. I, like, I would have a TV in my room. Like, staying up late felt like something I was good at.

[Lena Dunham]

I felt the same way.

[Amy Poehler]

And I had SNL and I was a vampire and it was like.

[Lena Dunham]

And you know, my thing when I was a teenager was that SNL reruns were on Comedy Central at midnight. And so I would. My parents. My bedroom was downstairs. We lived in this weird place in Brooklyn that was above a garage. But there was one little windowless room next to the garage, which was my room. And the landlord, JP had left his, like, single guy. It was like the most modern TV of 1993, right? And I would plug in the headphones from like American Airlines and sit this close to the television and take notes on snl. Oh, Lena, so sad.

[Amy Poehler]

I mean, comedy is so important. You're not sad. I mean, that's. I mean, that's like an athlete, like just, you know, shooting hoops in their driveway.

[Lena Dunham]

I Graduated from high school in 2004. So one thing that I did was at St. Ann's we had student IDs, and the rule was that you could not come and get tickets to SNL unless you were. Was it 16 or 18? I don't. It was.

[Amy Poehler]

I think it might be 16.

[Lena Dunham]

It was 16. Yeah. So I was 15 and wanted to go.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah.

[Lena Dunham]

So I came up with a scheme, which was I was gonna go to get. Act like I lost my school ID and have them reprint it and go, you guys got my birthday wrong. And then have them move the year. And they did. And then I felt too guilty and I confessed before I could ever go. I was like. Started to think about.

[Amy Poehler]

You're like, this worked too well.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah, this was too. I could get addicted to this. And pretty soon I'm going to be scamming men out of their money in Florida and putting them to sleep with a little injection. I can't be on this path.

[Amy Poehler]

I mean, you're speaking about, like, the fact that 2001 is 25 years ago is insane.

[Lena Dunham]

It's insane.

[Amy Poehler]

There is such an incredible resurgence of your work, specifically girls, but all of your work and how people interact with your work. Do you think it is like this? I mean, it's like people write. I don't know, people attach it to this bigger idea of nostalgia. But what do you have a sense now of, like, what it is, like, why people are going back to that show, to you, to the feeling that. That time. Do you have a sense of why?

[Lena Dunham]

Well, you know, it's interesting because I know that a lot. I don't equate my early 20s, and I think when people read the book, they'll understand why, with the exception of some very specific moments, I don't, like, equate my early 20s with, like, a sense of jubilance and freedom, just because it was really the moment when sort of adult life and adult pressure descended. So it's interesting and it's cozy. Like, when I want to be cozy, I watch Parks and Recreation. Or as my husband calls it, Parks and Recreations.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, with an S. Yeah.

[Lena Dunham]

And he. And once I said, you know, there's no S on the end. He went, you're wrong. But. And I knew that I. I think maybe I told you this, but I knew that I loved him because I left my dog with him for the day while I was on set. And it was a big thing for me to be like, okay, I'm gonna leave her with you, not with this dog sitter. Let's see what happens. And I checked. Texted to check in, and he said, we're just watching some Parks and Recreations. She loves John Ralphio. And I went, okay. Okay.

[Amy Poehler]

That's a good guy. Okay, you can stay.

[Lena Dunham]

You can stay. I would watch Parks and Recreations to relax, but the idea that. And to me, I'm like, girls is like a stress bomb. Like, it's like watching.

[Amy Poehler]

Let's talk about this. I agree. Girls can be a.

[Lena Dunham]

Girls is a stress bomb. It's a stressful show. I feel like when I'm watching Girls, I'm, like, watching one of those movies where somebody has, like, 10 minutes to disseminate a bomb. Like, it's not.

[Amy Poehler]

But it really, really relaxes people. And I think it reminds them of. It reminds them of time in their lives and a time in the character's lives.

[Lena Dunham]

And a lot of people say to me, people who are on the old. On the more 40 end will go. Like, I lived in. I lived off the Lorimer stop when I was 23 with my two best friends from college. And, you know, now one of them's dead and one of them's a Republican. You know, like, they are looking back at a moment that felt really good and alive to them, and I love that they think that the girls are cozy and feel like they're their first friends. Like that.

[Natalie Portman]

Yeah.

[Lena Dunham]

And also, all I ever wanted to make. I always was sad, like, I'm never gonna be the person who makes cozy TV that makes anyone want to curl up and. But so if it is that for people, I also think there's something. Even though the show does have social media, even though the show, you know, there's. There's, like, a conversation in the first episode. And I've never watched Girls since we finished, so I really.

[Amy Poehler]

You've never done a rewatch?

[Lena Dunham]

I've never done a rewatch. I've never done a rewatch. I just. I guess I'm always thinking, and I don't know, do you ever watch things Old World?

[Amy Poehler]

I rewatched Parks and Rec with Parks and Recreations with my kids.

[Lena Dunham]

They love it.

[Amy Poehler]

I would suggest someday you do.

[Lena Dunham]

Because rewatch Parks and Recreations.

[Amy Poehler]

Yes, I have rewatch Girls because it is just a really concrete way to be more gentle to yourself.

[Lena Dunham]

Oh, that's so sweet.

[Amy Poehler]

All the stuff that. That you would maybe be critical of kind of goes away. At least it did for me. And you just remembered the feeling, like, I didn't even remember what happened. I was like, what happens here? Does Leslie win? Like, I couldn't even remember the plot, but I could remember the feeling of making the scenes like. It was like a body feeling. And it made me feel grateful. It made me feel really grateful. And I wonder, I would wish that for you. I don't know if you will feel that, but maybe. Maybe.

[Lena Dunham]

I think. I mean, I love those people and I love that. And there were so many wonderful times, you know, after Andrew Rannells read the book. He was like. He was like. It was. Made me sad at some points because I felt like we were having so much fun. And then I read it, and it didn't feel like you were having fun. And I was like, no. When we were on screen, that was the best thing ever. That was my. Like, that was my escape from everything else that was happening in my mind. I always felt like I could open a door into being those people. And I remember feeling like this. And it's the only time I ever really felt this way, because I'm not like a. A mystical actor in this way, but I just. I felt like my. Whatever Lena's problems are, go away. And like, the. The problems of these particular people, which feel sort of light and inconsequential at the end of the day, took over. And so I was like, no, I always felt joy when I was with you. I always felt joy when I was doing linked hands linked with these people doing this thing. It was everything that came with it. Yeah, that was hard. What do you think people who write

[Amy Poehler]

about girls or wrote about girls got wrong about it?

[Lena Dunham]

At the time, it was like there was two ends of the spectrum, which is there are people who thought we weren't in on the joke at all. Like, that we thought that we were making a pressing film about the concerns of America's neediest population and that we just were really missing the mark. And then there were the people who thought that I was so in on the joke that I remember there being conservative commentators who were like, actually, this is a. You know, this is. She's curing woke millennials and she's taking them down. And I was like, actually, something can live totally between those places, which is we take them totally seriously and we totally get what's funny about it. People underestimate young women all the time. Yes. And it was funny. It was like, if. If they. People didn't like the show, it was my fault. If they did like the show, it was the fault of someone else. It was just. It was. And really looking back now, if somebody. People come to me a lot and Will go, like, someone's saying something mean about me on the Internet. What do I do? And I always go, just don't look at it. Just don't look at it. But I couldn't take that advice then. Of course, that's why it's when you were asking, like, how do you like talking about the book? How do you not like talking about the book? And then I circled away from that. I'm going to circle back is sometimes people will ask me, you know, why do you think people felt this way about you? Or why do you think people. Why do you think people had a strong reaction to you? And I go, it's ultimately, like, not really my problem.

[Amy Poehler]

Not only is it not your problem, it's not your business. How about that? That's the way people think about you is none of your business.

[Lena Dunham]

It's not your business.

[Amy Poehler]

It's not your business. It's truly not. It's just like. And that is.

[Lena Dunham]

I'm checking into the hotel under the name None YA Business.

[Amy Poehler]

None YA business. Also a book written by one of Sykes. When you were writing the characters for Girls, did you think it was a show about female friendship?

[Lena Dunham]

I thought, yes. I thought it was a show about female friendship. But I was like, it's a show about, like, the fact that female friendship is actually, until you figure out what is and isn't your business, it's a thorny torture scape. Because the thing about women is I'm obsessed with them. And part of why I'm obsessed with them is also because I'm scared of them, because they're too smart.

[Amy Poehler]

I see.

[Lena Dunham]

Do you know what I mean? You might not feel that way.

[Amy Poehler]

I don't, but I understand what you mean, because it is. I think it's very honest to bring up the fact that complicated people. Interesting, complicated people often provide complicated, interesting, like, relationships. And there were times when I would watch Girls and I'd be like, are they friends?

[Lena Dunham]

The answer was often no. Yeah, I mean, they were holding onto an idea. Part of the reason they were friends is because sometimes when people are young, they hold onto certain friends not just because of the good feelings they give them, but because they get to feel superior or they get to feel. They get to feel like, in contrast, they're winning. Or they get to feel like they're shinier because they're next to the pretty person, whatever it is, and you're still like, you're not. When you're in your 20s, you're not even that far out of high school. You don't even. Haven't you even yet let go of all that stuff? And now. This isn't to say I'm. I have amazing. My female friends are incredible. I'm not afraid of them. But I also, in my. There's something about the ways that women can see each other and know each other that can feel very exposing. And the thing that's really nice is now I feel that the majority of my female relationships have. There was just a day where I woke up and went, I haven't had to exchange a really heavy email in a while. Like, I haven't had to. I remember once having a fight with a girlfriend in. In our 20s, and we were, like, going back and forth in these long point to point. Now I will not. If someone raises points with me, I will not be addressing the points. Like, I'm not going. I'm not.

[Amy Poehler]

You're not bolding the points. And then here are my responses to the points.

[Lena Dunham]

I'm not a lawyer. I'm not gonna make notes on your docusign and send it back to you. That's not what's happening. But we were doing that, and I remember showing it to, like, a boyfriend outraged. And he was like, I don't even know what I mean. It's like, you guys are in, like, a scholastic writing competition, and you're each trying to write the best essay about why the other one is bad at being a friend if you feel this way. And then. And then moments later, everyone's apologizing, going, I didn't mean any of that. And it's like, well, that was a lot of energy to expend on this creative writing exercise.

[Amy Poehler]

Like the kids, say, say less, say less. Say less.

[Lena Dunham]

That's a hard one. Someone told me recently that if somebody writes you, I mean, have you ever seen that meme where someone's like, congrats, or sorry that happened to you? I don't know. I'm not trying to read all that. Somebody writes someone really long.

[Amy Poehler]

Yes. I don't know. I'm not trying to read all that.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah, I'm not trying to read all that.

[Amy Poehler]

Aubrey Plaza on the set of Parks used to take my phone when I was texting someone, and she would erase it and then just write no. And I'd be like, oh, I guess I could say that, too. I could just say no.

[Lena Dunham]

There's a big thing, which is my brother taught me. He's like, do not ever reply with more lines than the person wrote you.

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It's funny. Your parents, you know, you talk about it in your book. You have really successful art artist parents who are in that art world, which is talk about in the rooms that are small. I mean there's like high fashion, there's like hyper intellectualism, there's. And there's the art world that they both live in.

[Lena Dunham]

It can only get smaller if you're like, well, the contact improv dance community that came out of Oberlin College where Jenna and I went, is pretty niche

[Amy Poehler]

improv contact dance babe that is wide open. Anybody can get in there.

[Lena Dunham]

You just gotta keep one point of contact between your bodies for the whole time.

[Amy Poehler]

It's such a perv fest. Like anything that's like we have to touch each other.

[Lena Dunham]

You're like, why? I remember I went to one of the classes when I was at Oberlin. Cause I used to do, like, a column for the Oberlin Grape shout out to all you grape writers out there. And it was like, I'd go and try things on campus, see what I thought of them. Ooh, I'm gonna do capoeira today. And I went and did contact improv. And. And basically my thesis was like, perverts. Like, that was. I left. Cause I remember they were like, okay, now, everybody remove one article of clothing of your choice. And everyone was like, pants. You know, it was right away.

[Amy Poehler]

I mean, that is the thing about the 2000s is you look back and you're pretty much, like, you could just take a stamp to pretty much everything and be like, perverts.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

But before we get off, girls, when now we're getting into the weeds. But when Jessa betrayed Hannah.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah, that was hard. That was hard for a lot of people. That was hard. Jemima didn't want to do it. I bet Jemima was like, don't make me do this.

[Amy Poehler]

I bet it's a real villain move. But what it allowed us, I think, in the writing was it allowed us to really see Hannah in a way that we hadn't yet. And also, it was just like the end of a cycle of story.

[Lena Dunham]

I also think that part of the reason that the way she justified that to herself in the moment is that she was like, well, Hannah hasn't maybe always been the most considerate friend to me. And she might have had. Hannah might have this idea. Here's what friends don't do. They don't sleep with your boyfriend, your ex boyfriend, and they don't. I don't know. You know, they don't sleep with your ex boyfriend. They don't push you in front of a car, and everything else is fair game. And she's like, no, you've cut away at our friendship with all of these other little moves. And the other thing is, because Hannah doesn't see herself as a person with any power. She doesn't realize that she's capable of hurting anybody else's feelings. She's. The world is happening to her.

[Amy Poehler]

Yes.

[Lena Dunham]

And I hope that as she grows, she realizes that actually she is often happening to the world.

[Amy Poehler]

And I just want to say kudos to you for that moment. Not only because it was audacious writing and just good moving the story forward, but we were paying attention to Jessa and Hannah. Like, that's who we were caring about.

[Lena Dunham]

That's really nice. And it's, you know, Jemima and I have been friends since we were 11, so it was always really interesting when we got to really dig into the story together. Cause often we were just, you know, in the same room at the same party, raising our eyebrows at the same thing. And when we got to do those big, chunky, emotional scenes together, it was amazing. But I do remember her when I was directing the scene where she and Adam kiss for the first time, she was really. I could see her panic. Cause it went against every instinct she had about behavior. And I had to say, he's not really my boyfriend. I'm not really gonna get mad at you.

[Amy Poehler]

Right.

[Lena Dunham]

He's actually just acting, acting. And so are we. And at the end of the day, neither of us kissed each other's ex boyfriend, so we're gonna be fine.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah.

[Lena Dunham]

And probably even if one of us did kiss each other's ex boyfriend, we'd be fine.

[Amy Poehler]

And you were like, put on this Patagonia lightweight.

[Lena Dunham]

Put on this Patagonia.

[Amy Poehler]

Put on this Patagonia lightweight.

[Lena Dunham]

Lightweight. Call this man to paint walls. And we're gonna be fine.

[Amy Poehler]

Fine.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay, I want to get your hot takes on a few things. Okay, great. These are completely random things, but I feel like you have strong hot takes that I would love to hear about.

[Lena Dunham]

Okay, great.

[Amy Poehler]

And there's no right or wrong. Okay. TikTok.

[Lena Dunham]

I spent. You're amazing on TikTok, and thank you.

[Amy Poehler]

Welcome to TikTok. I've seen your TikToks. My algorithm knows who I am, obviously, and a lot of them are from your bed.

[Lena Dunham]

But what I like about TikTok, I mean, I'm sure, like, everything. The culture's changing, but what I like about it is it seems like it's allowed a lot of people to find like minded folks and to find people who are. I always see, like a woman alone in a farmhouse feeding grizzly bears from a pan who's found her friends.

[Amy Poehler]

And that I like, found your friends. And also I think there's just good comedy there.

[Lena Dunham]

There's.

[Amy Poehler]

I think there's good comedy.

[Lena Dunham]

There's good comedy, there's good educational content. And, you know, I don't want to be watching someone like, sell me a freckle stick, but I do. I mean, my TikTok algorithm, when I still had it, was women with pigs. And I like when there's. In Australia where sex work is legal, I love to watch women count their money and talk about their experiences and their money counters.

[Amy Poehler]

Yep.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah, that's. I love that. And I love ASMR nails also.

[Amy Poehler]

I Like the women who work at like exotic dancing clubs and are at the front and they're. And you don't see the patrons, but you see them deciding who's gonna come in.

[Lena Dunham]

Yes, I love that too. I love women at work. I love women at work in all ways. And sometimes what's hard is you'll watch someone over time and they start really authentic and then you see like a little taste of. I mean, this is what I was talking about in the book. A little taste of fame Makes us all sick. It's not.

[Amy Poehler]

It's very true. Shorter question. Diet Coke, yes or no?

[Lena Dunham]

Do you know the kids have been calling it fridge cigs?

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah. Love it.

[Lena Dunham]

I love Diet Coke. I don't think it's an everyday thing.

[Amy Poehler]

Agree.

[Lena Dunham]

My mother, it's a treat if you do a trick.

[Amy Poehler]

If you do a trick, you get a Diet Coke.

[Lena Dunham]

My mother, every time she gets a mammogram and since she was 40, she Every time she gets a mammogram, she gets a New York City hot dog and a Diet Coke. A dirty water hot dog and a Diet Coke. So it's her. Yes. I see she has the full carcinogens package after a successful mammogram.

[Amy Poehler]

Meg Stalter o'.

[Lena Dunham]

Mary. Oh, I'm so excited. We love Meg. I'm so excited it will be that. I mean, that show, that woman, she's such a funny, special person.

[Amy Poehler]

She's a. She is hilarious. I've had the pleasure of working with her a few times. Also, I'm loving how she's interacting. Talking about like fame and something really interesting. Least favorite current fashion trend.

[Lena Dunham]

I've always said that my style is like bratty 5 year old with a credit card.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, that makes a lot of sense.

[Lena Dunham]

You feel that, right? Like, it's like a girl who's like, my dad gave me this and he said I can get whatever I want. And then you, you just can. Because so many of the things that. Also because my parents have good taste. When I was a kid, a lot was like, you don't want that. That's not. You don't want that sparkly leopard velour tunic and matching leg warmers. Yes, I do. And now I'm an adult who makes my own money and I can have it.

[Amy Poehler]

I get that vibe from you. It's. You're low in that way. Like, I love that you like, you know a ton about really like esteemed artists and writers. And then also you, like, you don't feel like a snob about it. It's hard because, you know, New York kids can sometimes, like, have access to stuff, and then, you know, people feel like they're not allowed to get in the room. And you do not give off that vibe.

[Lena Dunham]

Clap. I like. I mean, I love. I love reality television.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah.

[Lena Dunham]

Do you still love reality television?

[Amy Poehler]

I don't, but I. I do.

[Lena Dunham]

You used to? No.

[Amy Poehler]

I mean, I wasn't a Housewives fan because it. It with my nervous system a little bit. I get it the way people are arguing and misunderstanding each other. I do enjoy a below deck. I enjoy a jobs based.

[Lena Dunham]

You like jobs based programming? And I will say one nice thing about England is there's a lot of shows that you can watch that are unscripted but relaxing. There's a lot of like, would you like to watch this, this very well decorated female historian take you on a tour of the oldest castle in Wales? Mary Beard, we live for you. And. Or would we like to, you know, I mean, Great British Bake Off's an example.

[Amy Poehler]

Incredible. But that's not reality, in my opinion. Well, I. I mean, I guess it's real.

[Lena Dunham]

I got asked to go on the Great British Bake Off. They do like a charity, celebrity Bake Off. And I went, I don't cook. I don't cook. I don't clean. Let me tell you how I got that ring. I don't have anything to do with it. But I thought, okay, like, this is a. Surely they can't expect that much of us. They're not calling in. They're not calling in, you know, chefs. They're calling in actors and writers. They end. They put me on the phone with a producer and said, the first challenge is gonna be a crumpet challenge. You are supposed to make a crumpet that expresses who you are.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay?

[Lena Dunham]

So I was like, well, I have British shorthair cats. They're gray. I could do a crumpet that had, like, some gray coloring and then do ears on it and then eyes. And it could be like my cats as a crumpet. And they went, okay, great. So maybe almond butter could be the eyes. And you could do some sort of like a raspberry jam for the mouth. Paul obviously does not. Is not comfortable with any store bought jams or butters.

[Amy Poehler]

So.

[Lena Dunham]

But we have a really simple pistachio butter recipe that we could send you. And I actually have a great short book on making jam.

[Amy Poehler]

Wait, what?

[Lena Dunham]

And I was like, making jam. Making jam. And then I said, you know, I've never cooked a crumb, but is there some, like, Basics. Do I have to go back to some basics? And they said, well, there's a great book called the Science of Baking which we can send you. Which kind of. And then I started to describe it to Michael, my business partner. He's like, have you lost your ever loving mind? Like, are you about to put in? And then I was gonna go over to my friend Rose's sister's house because she bakes. And she was like, I actually do have a familial crumpet recipe that if you try it nine, ten times. And then they said to me, ovens go on at 8am and off at 6pm And I made some joke and I was like, well, at least you guys will help me turn those on. They was like, oh no, we're not allowed to touch any of the knobs. And I just went, we're outta here, we're outta here. I'm sorry, guys.

[Amy Poehler]

Love that. For you.

[Lena Dunham]

We're outta here.

[Amy Poehler]

I love that. No, for you that's a good no.

[Lena Dunham]

And I. Cause I love to try to become an expert at something really quickly, but this was beyond. This was way beyond anything that I could handle.

[Amy Poehler]

Plus the tension of Paul not being happy.

[Lena Dunham]

Paul's not comfortable. Paul's not comfortable with any of those store bought jams.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah, those husky eyes shooting lasers at you because of the jam. Okay. The New Moon album, do you love it? Of course.

[Lena Dunham]

I love everything that Moona touches.

[Amy Poehler]

Theme parks, do you love them?

[Lena Dunham]

I do not think that I have been to a theme park in adulthood and I. And it may be one of the only things I'm comfortable saying I won't do again before I die. You.

[Amy Poehler]

I agree. I respectfully decline. Would you ever have a robot in your house?

[Lena Dunham]

I think that my. I think that I would cathect onto and anthropomorphize the robot too much.

[Amy Poehler]

Sorry, what was the word you used?

[Lena Dunham]

Cathect.

[Amy Poehler]

Whoa.

[Lena Dunham]

Tell me if I used it correctly.

[Amy Poehler]

Incredible new word alert. Cathect.

[Lena Dunham]

Cathect. Tell me what you're seeing. Cathect. I'm not even going to define.

[Amy Poehler]

I'm just going to say it's a verb that means to invest mental or emotional energy into a person, object or idea. So like anthropomorphize? Kind of.

[Lena Dunham]

I would anthropomorphize the robot. They often, therapists will sometimes say like, if you are projecting on, they'll say like, we've had an episode of Cathexis. Would you have a robot in your house?

[Amy Poehler]

I would, but I feel Like, I'd be able to control it until it killed me. Okay. And then we have talked about my producer, Jenna, who you have known for 20 years.

[Lena Dunham]

Yes, I have.

[Amy Poehler]

I have a question. What was Jenna like when she was 23?

[Lena Dunham]

Jenna was cool. Like, Jenna still is. Jenna was, like, a cool, hot hipster who knew. Who lived in Brooklyn and knew all in, like, the. One of the. I was still in college and went to go hang out at Jenna's apartment. It was on the second floor on Atlantic Avenue, kind of. Correct. Right. Jenna. It was on the second floor in Atlantic Avenue, and she had, like, a rustic boat wheel that they had upcycled and used as, like, a piece of wall ornamentation. And Jenna wore, like, wa. One of those little, you know, bike messenger hats.

[Amy Poehler]

Sure.

[Lena Dunham]

And I will always remember. I'm an embarrassed Jenna right now. Jenna had a girlfriend. I don't want to upset anyone, but Jenna had a girlfriend.

[Amy Poehler]

And Jenna can always cut this.

[Lena Dunham]

Jenna always can cut this if she wants. She's the boss, and I love that. Like, I used to get to sleep in a room. Like, we had, like, multiple twin beds. For some reason. There was, like, a room with three twin beds and only two girls.

[Amy Poehler]

At Oberlin.

[Lena Dunham]

At Oberlin, we had a room. Somehow, we'd gotten lucky, and so I pushed two of them together to make a queen, and then somehow ended up, like, in my queen with Jenna, having to share the single with somebody else. And interesting. And I was sort of like, you

[Amy Poehler]

guys share the single.

[Lena Dunham]

Sarah, the single. Girlfriend and a girlfriend. And I remember going saying some. Using some insane logic like, listen, you guys should feel really lucky. You have each other. And what I have is this queen that I made out of two shitty old mattresses.

[Amy Poehler]

Hold on. So just to go over.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah, yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

When you and Jenna were in college, Jenna was sharing a single with her girlfriend, who was my roommate, and you had a queen.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah, that I'd made out of two mattresses.

[Amy Poehler]

Feeling still victimized by that.

[Lena Dunham]

Correct. Yeah. I was like, guys, you know, it's, like, kind of hard to just be sitting here as a single person having to look at all this love. I've been through a lot, and so. And also, you might remember that I had to go home from college last year because I have chronic mono, so.

[Amy Poehler]

So just think about other people.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah, I shouldn't have done that, Jenna. And I'm sorry, looking back, it's deranged behavior, but we only have to make things make sense to us, really.

[Amy Poehler]

That's right. Okay. And then let's talk About Good Sex because so we have this thing.

[Lena Dunham]

Yep.

[Amy Poehler]

Good Sex is a new movie coming out on Netflix. It's rom com that you wrote and directed. Natalie Portman spoke to us today. We got a question from Natalie Nadie and who spoke so beautifully about you as a person and as a director, said something that I just, like, I will really think about and take with me, which is that she felt very seen by you when she was being directed by you. Of course. She felt like you set a tone for not only, like, everyone on the set, but you were paying very close attention to what people were doing and also just like, gave specific feedback when you liked something, which I know, I know it sounds like duh. But it's not always the case because we are so. We have such a bias to talk about what needs to be fixed and we kind of forget to say, like, oh, that was good.

[Lena Dunham]

I liked that.

[Amy Poehler]

Good job.

[Lena Dunham]

Well, it's funny. Firstly, I'm so. Natalie Portman is. I mean, she was such a big deal to me when I was a youth. She was just the cool girl's cool girl, the thinking woman, Zongenou, the everything. And. And meeting her was one of the rare moments where I really kind of got tongue tied and goofy. And then she makes you feel really cozy. But getting to work with her and getting to know her and getting to know her magic and her friendship with Rasheeda, which has existed for, like, almost 30 years, she's just. She's everything you'd think she would be. But I feel like, you know how we were saying, like, women are so good at things that they're then punished for it. People go, well, you did that well. I guess you'll just keep doing that well and we'll lay more on you. Natalie is such a good actress. And she's such a good actress, even in moments where she doesn't have to be, she exudes it. Like, you have a shot that's like her on a telephoto lens crossing the street in traffic, and she does something interesting with her face. So I was like, I think that almost people don't want to say, you're the most amazing actress I've ever seen, because they feel like it makes them look, like, gauche or dorky or they should just be accepting this as reality. But every single day I went, went, that's insane what you're doing right now. And watching her be goofy is so fun because she is a big goof.

[Amy Poehler]

She's a goof. Well, she had a great goofy question for you.

[Lena Dunham]

I'm so excited.

[Amy Poehler]

She said. And it's funny because we talked about this. We started talking about this. She said, what is the best pig to adopt? Because she said, you have pet pigs. We talked about pigs. She wants to know what kind of pigs we got into. She's in Paris. I. Apparently there's a wild boar situation in Paris. There's a wild boar situation I don't

[Lena Dunham]

want to get into.

[Amy Poehler]

I don't want to get political.

[Lena Dunham]

But we.

[Amy Poehler]

And she knows that she's not ready to be a pig parent yet. Where she is.

[Lena Dunham]

She's a rabbit parent, but she's not ready to be a pig parent. And she's a really good dog mom, too. But. Yeah, but what's the best kind of pig?

[Amy Poehler]

Yes. To adopt. Well, in your opinion.

[Lena Dunham]

Okay, so obviously there's. So here's something for anyone at home to know if you're thinking about adopting a pig. Very good there. If someone tells you that you are getting a teacup pig, you are not. If someone tells you you're getting a mini pig, you're not. A mini pig is. Any pig that's under £500 is what is classed as a mini pig.

[Amy Poehler]

Very important to know.

[Lena Dunham]

Unlike a farm sow, which can go up to like 1400 pounds. And also, pigs, unlike dogs like you don't have a sense from their piglet size of how big they're going to be because they keep growing until they're five. Wow. And they also. Another fact about pigs, not two sets of teeth, three sets of teeth. They lose their teeth twice. And I've been saving all those pig teeth for a rainy day, just for

[Amy Poehler]

a nightmare, some kind of nightmare scenario.

[Lena Dunham]

That's exactly right. Two of the pigs that are in my life are Meishan pigs. Meishan pigs are. They're now actually classed as critically endangered. But they are a. They are a Chinese species that dates back at least 5,000 years. They look like they're famous for a few things. They're amazing mothers. They have huge litters, up to like 17 or 18 at a time. And they mother them expertly.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, dear.

[Lena Dunham]

They look like little elephants.

[Amy Poehler]

Wow.

[Lena Dunham]

And they don't root a lot. And they don't. They don't. They forage, not root. And they're just chillers. And so if you have space, you might think, let me go with the smallest pig. That will be easiest. But actually a Meishan is a great cozy, I think, really good beginner piglet. A beginner pig.

[Amy Poehler]

17 or 18 piglets.

[Lena Dunham]

The other thing, the other Thing is that I've learned is a solo pig's not nice. No.

[Amy Poehler]

Because solo animals in general.

[Lena Dunham]

Solo animals in general. But a dog seems like they can get a lot of what they need from, like, you're my buddy. You're my buddy. I'm gonna go out on the street and see my buddies. But pigs can't just. Because they're very territorial. They can't just, like, casually have playdates with another pig. They either need to be in a life together. And when I got my first pig, Victor, who I thought would be a solo pig, he was talking all day long, and I just thought, I'm trying, buddy, but I don't know what you're saying. And so that's why we got Cherry.

[Amy Poehler]

Cherry and Victor.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah. And it was an arranged marriage.

[Amy Poehler]

It feels like a Neil Simon play.

[Lena Dunham]

It was an arranged marriage. We didn't know how it would go. And what I loved is that the first day that we let them, he went over and kind of started to, like, get a little aggro with her, and she bit him on the butt as hard as she could. And from that day on, he was like, it's your scene, lady. Like, he's.

[Amy Poehler]

It's like a rom com. Yeah, it was a pig rom com.

[Lena Dunham]

And now she spends a lot of time sitting on his head.

[Amy Poehler]

And she took off her little pig glasses, and he was like, you're beautiful. Lena Dunham.

[Lena Dunham]

Amy Poehler.

[Amy Poehler]

So lovely to talk to you. I'm so happy you could come. Thank you. Congratulations on your movie. Congratulations on your book.

[Lena Dunham]

Thank you, honey.

[Amy Poehler]

And, you know, we've known each other for a very long time. It's really, really nice to see you again.

[Lena Dunham]

It's really nice to see you, too. You are a really. I mean, it's a well named. I said to someone that I was going on podcast, I was like, and it's not a lie. She's a good hang.

[Amy Poehler]

Thanks, dude.

[Lena Dunham]

Thanks.

[Amy Poehler]

Right back at you. Happy 40th, babe.

[Lena Dunham]

Thanks.

[Amy Poehler]

Come on over to the other side. It's so great over here. Thank you so much. Lena Dunham. Just so smart and interesting. Such a great discussion with you, and thank you so much for being here. And, you know, Lena is a New York City kid, and we're gearing up for a New York City summer. And for all you people headed to Broadway, I want to use this polar plunge to remind you that three champions, three comedic giants, are on Broadway right now as we speak. And that is Ana Gasteyer in Schmiga Doone. That is Maya Rudolph in O Mary. And that is Rachel Dratch in the Rocky Horror Picture Show. So get your tickets, babe, because this kind of event only happens every hundred years when all of these beautiful women are on stage at the same time. And aren't we lucky to be alive when that's happening? So congratulations, ladies, and congratulations to you if you get a chance to see them, and thank you for listening, and see you soon. Bye. You've been listening to good hang. The executive producers for this show are Bill Siddhartha, Jenna Weiss Berman, and me, Amy Poehler. The show is produced by the Ringer and Paper Kite. For the Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, cat Spillane, Kaia McMullen and Alaya Zaneris. For Paper Kite, production by Sam Green, Joel Lovell and Jenna Weiss Berman. Original music by Amy Miles.