A Different Take on Screen Time

Summary

Podcast Summary: Good Inside with Dr. Becky Episode: A Different Take on Screen Time
Release Date: August 12, 2025
Host: Dr. Becky Kennedy
Guest: Ash Brandon, Educator and Gamer Educator

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Introduction

In the episode titled "A Different Take on Screen Time," Dr. Becky Kennedy welcomes Ash Brandon, an educator, researcher, and former middle school teacher. Ash is renowned on Instagram as the Gamer Educator, where they provide compassionate and practical tools to help parents set screen time boundaries without inducing shame or sparking power struggles. Ash also announced the release of their new book, "Power On," available in bookstores from August 26th. Dr. Becky expresses her enthusiasm for the conversation, highlighting how Ash's insights helped her navigate her own triggers related to her children's screen time.

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Rethinking Screen Time: From Rules to Family Needs

Transitioning from Summer to Fall

As the season shifts from summer to fall, many parents grapple with reducing their children's screen time. Dr. Becky notes, "I hear from parents in this kind of summer to fall transition all the time. Just like, I feel like I had a lot of screen time over the summer. Like, it's time to tighten up" (02:24). Ash emphasizes that summer is a period of relaxation and flexibility, contrasting with the structured demands of the school year. They suggest leveraging positive screen activities experienced during summer, such as family movie nights, and continuing these enjoyable routines into the fall (02:59).

Shifting the Paradigm: What Works for the Family

Dr. Becky and Ash advocate moving away from rigid questions like "What's the right amount of screen time?" Instead, they propose starting with assessing the family's unique needs and what screen time can accomplish for them. Ash outlines three main tenets:

1. Screen Time as a Social Inequity Issue: Recognizing that access and control over screen time can reflect broader social disparities.
2. Screens as a Part of Life Without Being the Center: Integrating technology into daily life without allowing it to dominate.
3. Screen Time Serving the Whole Family: Ensuring that screen use meets the needs of both children and adults, often alleviating burdens for caregivers (04:55).

Ash highlights that screens often serve to help adults manage their responsibilities, especially in challenging circumstances like single parenting or unconventional work schedules. This perspective shifts the focus from solely evaluating the impact on children to understanding how screens can support the entire family's functionality.

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Addressing Parental Guilt and Embracing Neutrality

Overcoming Shame and Fear

Dr. Becky addresses a common sentiment among parents: guilt over allowing their children too much screen time. She states, "There's so much shame, Right? And the irony also there is the things that we hold a lot of shame around, we actually can't even change" (07:38). Ash concurs, explaining that decisions driven by fear or shame are less effective. Instead, adopting a neutral stance toward screens enables parents to make informed, sustainable choices without internalizing negative judgments (07:38).

Emphasizing Sustainable Practices

Dr. Becky and Ash stress the importance of sustainability over perfection. Ash points out that healthy screen usage doesn't always equate to minimal use but instead focuses on what is manageable and beneficial for the family. This approach also prepares children to navigate a technologically driven world with digital literacy and safety (08:00).

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Practical Strategies: Setting Boundaries and Encouraging Autonomy

Morning Routine Scenario

Dr. Becky presents a common scenario: establishing a morning routine where excessive screen time disrupts timely departures for school. She asks Ash for guidance on handling such situations (09:21). Ash recommends:

1. Identifying Non-Negotiables: Determine fixed family needs, such as leaving the house by a specific time.
2. Involving Children in Decision-Making: Allow children to contribute to when and how screen time can fit into the routine, fostering a sense of agency (10:46).

Drawing Parallels with Video Games

Ash draws a compelling comparison between parenting screen time and the mechanics of video games. They explain how games establish clear boundaries and rules, providing players with autonomy within those confines. For example, in Super Mario, the consistent rules around brick blocks and power-ups teach players about the game's environment without emotional backlash (15:08). This analogy serves to illustrate how clear, neutral boundaries can offer children both structure and freedom.

Consistency and Neutral Enforcement

Dr. Becky adds that consistent rule enforcement, much like in video games, helps children understand and adapt to boundaries without taking it personally. Ash reinforces that rules should be applied consistently and neutrally to prevent emotional strain and promote autonomy (18:13).

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Defining 'Too Much' Screen Time: A Flexible Approach

Research vs. Practical Application

Ash acknowledges that research often labels excessive screen time as four or more hours per day, but they argue that such definitions can be too rigid. Instead, they advocate for assessing whether the current screen usage meets the family's needs and is manageable without causing significant disruption (32:25).

Balancing Needs and Sustainability

Instead of adhering strictly to external standards, Ash suggests evaluating whether the screen time is fulfilling necessary functions, such as keeping children occupied during meal preparation. If a particular show leads to difficulties, parents can adjust the screen time strategy without guilt, viewing it as data to inform future decisions (35:12).

Building Essential Life Skills

Dr. Becky emphasizes that excessive reliance on screen time can hinder the development of crucial skills like frustration tolerance and emotional regulation. She encourages parents to create a balanced environment where screens are one of many tools for learning and growth, not the sole source of entertainment or engagement (37:08).

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From Fear to Empowerment: Equipping Children for the Digital World

Shifting from Protective to Empowering

Ash advocates moving away from a fear-based approach to screen time, instead focusing on empowering children with the skills to navigate technology responsibly. They compare this to teaching children about water safety around pools—recognizing their inherent dangers while providing the necessary skills to enjoy them safely (29:37).

Fostering Digital Literacy and Safety

By emphasizing digital literacy and safety, parents can help children develop a healthy relationship with technology. This approach not only diminishes parental anxiety but also equips children with the abilities to manage their digital interactions effectively (43:05).

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Conclusion: Embracing Neutrality and Empowerment

In the closing segment, Dr. Becky reflects on the discussion, highlighting the value of removing shame from screen time conversations and focusing on what works best for each family. Ash reiterates the importance of neutrality and empowerment, ensuring that both parents and children develop the necessary skills to navigate a technology-rich world without fear or judgment.

Dr. Becky wraps up the episode with her signature affirmation: "Place your feet on the ground, place a hand on your heart. And let's remind ourselves even as I struggle on the outside, I remain good inside." This serves as a comforting reminder to parents to embrace their efforts without succumbing to self-judgment.

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Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Becky Kennedy (02:24): "I know you will also learn something new, have a reframe for how you think about screen time and also feel empowered to deal with screen time with your kids in a way that feels good instead of ridden with guilt."
• Ash Brandon (07:38): "When we come from that place of fear, fear is not empowering. I'm not going to make my best decisions when I'm acting out of fear or shame."
• Dr. Becky Kennedy (24:53): "Our kids get upset at the end of screen time... but we are so quick to rattle off like, we're never doing this again and I'm throwing away your iPad and this is bad and I knew it. And I'm a horrible parent."

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This episode provides a fresh perspective on managing screen time, encouraging parents to adopt a neutral, needs-based approach that fosters autonomy and emotional regulation in children. By shifting the focus from rigid rules and parental guilt to empowerment and sustainable practices, Dr. Becky and Ash offer valuable insights for navigating the complexities of screen time in modern parenting.

Transcript

[Dr. Becky]

This week I'm joined by Ash Brandon. Ash is an educator, a researcher and a former middle school teacher who's on a mission to help families rethink screen time. You might know Ash from Instagram as the Gamer Educator where they share practical, compassionate tools to help parents set boundaries without shame or power struggles. And exciting news. Ash's brand new book Power on hits bookstores everywhere on August 26th. This conversation really stuck with me and it gave me so much insight into some of my own triggers around my own kids. Screen time. That's one of the things Ash and I talk about and I can't wait for you to hear this conversation because I know you will also learn something new, have a reframe for how you think about screen time and also feel empowered to deal with screen time with your kids in a way that feels good instead of ridden with guilt. Hi, I'm Dr. Becky and this is good inside. We'll be back right after this. When it comes to school snacks, I've never been the pack my kid a portable charcuterie board kind of parent. If you are more power to you. I'm more of a grab and go type. I want something simple, nutritious and easy for my kids to reach as we're heading out the door. That's why I like Chomps. Their full size meat sticks have 10 grams of protein and zero sugar. They're filling and made from real ingredients so it's one less thing to think about. And if you've ever opened your kid's backpack to find a half eaten snack from who knows when still wrapped up in there. Chomp lings are great. They're smaller sticks, the right size to toss in a lunchbox or that little front backpack pocket with 4 grams of protein and zero sugar. Chomps are made of high quality ingredients like 100% grass fed beef, venison and antibiotic free turkey. They're also free from the top nine allergens so you don't have to worry about sending them to school. Check out all the sizes and delicious [e-mail] DrBecky for 15% off plus free shipping. That's C-H O M P S.com D R B E C K Y hi Ash. Hi. I'm so excited to have you here.

[Ash Brandon]

I am so thrilled to be here. Thank you so much.

[Dr. Becky]

Okay. We're going to talk about so many different things. Screen time and misconceptions and reframes. I know you love all those things. I do too. But I'm just thinking about the time of year. And I feel like I hear from parents in this kind of summer to fall transition all the time. Just like, I feel like I had a lot of screen time over the summer. Like, it's time to tighten up. Just in this moment of time when I think that thought is in so many parents heads, like, where do you go from there in terms of even how parents are thinking about it, tightening up, what that means summer to fall, screen time in general this time. Tell me your thoughts.

[Ash Brandon]

Yeah, I think summer is that, like, kind of wonderful time where we can get more relaxed and flexible and then we see sort of the, like the coming reality of, oh, yeah. And then we have to go back to the school year and all the things that that entails. And I feel like a lot of caregivers want to, you know, prepare so that we are setting ourselves up for success. And when it comes to things like technology, I think it is helpful sometimes to think about, well, what maybe was or wasn't working for us before, or what are some things that maybe came up over the summer where we've relaxed a bit. Maybe there's some things with that that actually were kind of nice, maybe felt kind of good. Maybe we got in a routine of having a family movie night or, you know, eating dinner on the couch and we picked a movie. And actually it really was a lovely thing.

[Dr. Becky]

Yeah.

[Ash Brandon]

Maybe that's something we can continue to incorporate. And then maybe there are things where we know, okay, but we still gotta get out of the door on time or something like that. And then we think about, okay, if that's the need of our family, how do I make sure that we're incorporating the need of our family? And starting from that place, when I'm thinking about our relationship with screen. Yeah.

[Dr. Becky]

So I just want to double click on something because I do think you're right away doing something. I think that happens for me a lot too, like almost shifting the question before you answer it. Because I think especially with screens, there's just a lot of, what's the right amount? What's the wrong amount? What's good screen time? What's bad screen time? We did too much in the summer. We need to cut back. And I think what you're saying is you're starting not with those questions, but from something around, like, what's going on in your family? What does your family need? What works? It's kind of a little more personalized or a little more focused on the family first. So can you just flesh that out a little?

[Ash Brandon]

Absolutely. So When I've been doing this kind of focus on Instagram for the last few years, I've said that I have three main tenants. And first is that screen time is in many ways a social inequity issue, which I'm happy to come back to and drag out my soapbox. The second is that screens can be a part of our lives without being the center of our lives, which I think is what many families really want for their kids. And then the third is that screen time should work for the whole family. We should be considering the whole family. I think we often get kind of myopically focused on our kids for good reason. Right. We're thinking about what this could do to them or how it could be helpful to them. And the reality is, is that in many ways, screen time is often functioning to help alleviate burden for adults. And a lot of that is not necessarily avoidable. If I'm a single parent or I have a caregiver who is working, like swing shift, and so I'm alone for big chunks of my parenting, there are gonna be things that need help. Like I need a tool that's gonna help me lift that burden. And if I don't have other things available to me, something has to fill in that gap. And oftentimes it's going to be something like a screen. And we might wish that there's something else to fill in for that and that I would as well. It's not great that we sometimes have these gaps. And if this is something that can fill in those gaps, then instead of focusing just on a child, sometimes it helps to instead think, okay, not what is this doing to my child? But what is it allowing me to do for them? And I think that that can often guide what the purpose of it is and if it is working for all of us in the family.

[Dr. Becky]

Well, one of the things I hear a lot from parents is, okay, I feel like my kid's on the screen too much. And then I feel like I'm such a bad parent. I'm so embarrassed. I don't want anyone to. There's so much shame, Right? And the irony also there is the things that we hold a lot of shame around, we actually can't even change. We might want to change them, but the shame keeps us so stuck. So what I'm responding to what you're saying is, let's put the shame to the side here. Screens in our busy world can do a lot of different things for the family. It's not just about a kid. There's a Lot going on. And maybe you do want to shift screen time. But thinking about it more from a place of what actually works for my whole family, what will I feel good about going to bed at night? Not what's right, what's wrong, what's my neighbor doing? Not from kind of such a place of judgment.

[Ash Brandon]

Absolutely. And I think when we come from that place of fear, fear is not empowering. I'm not going to make my best decisions when I'm acting out of fear or shame. And when we're focused on, like, the potential of what could go wrong, or thinking like, well, I need to minimize this as much as possible because that's what I am thinking of as healthy. Healthy doesn't always mean minimal. And really what we want is something sustainable. And we also recognize that, you know, our kids are going to grow up to be adults in a technologically driven world that we can't even really fully comprehend. I think, right. It's gonna be even different than the world that we're in and how technologically driven it is. So really, our goal is to also make sure that we're raising kids who are digitally literate and can be digitally safe. And that's hard to do if we are framing these things from a place of fear. I can give my kid and empower my child to have a relationship with technology that might work for them long term if I'm able to view them with a sense of neutrality. I think that that is really important and I think that's very difficult for a lot of people because they associate, as you said, the amount of screen time that their kid has has some, like, an inverse relationship with their value as a parent. Right. If their kid is on screens a lot, then they might think this is, this is bad parenting. Like, it might be benefiting me, but I shouldn't be doing that. I should be prioritizing my child. But that's where it comes back to what is it allowing? What is it allowing to have happen in our family?

[Dr. Becky]

Let's go through a few kind of scenarios. Let's get specific. So let's start with the parent who's saying, okay, maybe I'm not even judging myself hardcore, but I just think we've got to get school routines in order. My kid, I'm making this up, but my kid starts their day with hours on the screen in the summer, it's been fine. It is what it is. It's obviously not gonna work when we have to get out the door at 7, 30, 6, 45, 8 o', clock, whatever it is. And I'm nervous. Like my kids freak out when I change the rules and how do I go about that? How do we start?

[Ash Brandon]

Yeah. So in my book that's coming out, I have the kind of last third is really devoted to really helping families make a structure that's going to work for them and kind of walks through this process. But you already outlined some of what would go into it. So first we think about, okay, what's the need? And if the need is like we have to be out the door by seven, Right. Then that might already determine whether or not screens are gonna happen in the morning. Yeah. Right. Maybe we know. Well my kid can barely get out of bed by 7:15, so I don't really think there's time in there. Or maybe they are a super early riser and there would be. And so if we know, okay, that's the need, then we can ask ourselves what input can I let my child contribute to this? And I think that is so important. People, regardless of age, we want to feel like we're contributing to a decision that involves us.

[Dr. Becky]

Yeah.

[Ash Brandon]

And that doesn't mean that we are necessarily guiding it. But if we feel like we have some agency and some input and we're being listened to or considered, it's going to go a long way to, I think making a rule or a boundary that's going to have some buy in.

[Dr. Becky]

So I think no one likes feeling done to. Nobody likes that at any age. Right. But what is that line between, okay, what is input? What is giving my kid my job, you know, and asking them to do my job for me? So let's just take this scenario. Let's say you have a kid out the door by 7:45. Let's say this kid, you know, you decide screen time in the morning is just not, it's not gonna end up being great. What's like the nitty gritty? How should we go about that with.

[Ash Brandon]

The input that they give?

[Dr. Becky]

Yeah.

[Ash Brandon]

So if it's, you know, what my need is, we're out the door by 7:45. This is sort of my non negotiable. Like we can't suddenly leave at 8. Right. And oftentimes in the morning it's like if we're at 7:45 and 45 seconds, that can like throw off the whole morning. Right. And so if that's the need and that's the non negotiable, then I might be leading with that in terms of like, so this is the reality. And that means that screens are not gonna be available before we leave in the morning. And I know that's different. And then give them something that they can help determine. So then think about, okay, well when in the day could it be and what could be up to them and if it is, well, once we get home, it actually could be whenever. Then maybe we let them be the person who makes that decision so that then they're feeling like, okay, this is what I can immediately guide and have input in.

[Dr. Becky]

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[Ash Brandon]

Absolutely. And what I think is so funny is that that framework of having some very clear boundaries or rules or non negotiables, whatever word you want to use, that really is how video games work, which is, ooh, tell me more. So think about.

[Dr. Becky]

I feel like now I'm like in, you know that like not the Matrix, but I'm like, this is like a meta conversation about the conversation.

[Ash Brandon]

Have you played a video game before of any kind?

[Dr. Becky]

I feel shame myself.

[Ash Brandon]

Very revealing.

[Dr. Becky]

I know I, I am not. I have not really played that many video games.

[Ash Brandon]

But like, have you played Pac Man? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

[Dr. Becky]

Okay. Of.

[Ash Brandon]

You never know. So. Okay, is that a good example to use? Yeah, Pac Man. Okay, so like you're playing Pac man or Super Mario?

[Dr. Becky]

Like Pack of the Day Mario. Oh, yeah. Oh, like original, like doot, doot, doot.

[Ash Brandon]

Yeah, Great. Okay, so you're playing Mario, right? And you notice that there's, you know, the brick blocks and the little question blocks, right? Yes. And you figure out what happens by testing them. Right? So you go up and you jump under the brick block. And when you're Tiny Mario and it just moves up, right. Moves back down. But then you go to the question mark block is Tiny Mario. And you get a coin or a star, whatever happens. Right. So you're learning the conditions of the level, you're learning the rules, and then.

[Dr. Becky]

Learning how the world works. Yes.

[Ash Brandon]

And then you get your one up mushroom and you get bigger. And then you learn that, oh, if I hit brick, says Big Mario, then it will break.

[Dr. Becky]

Right.

[Ash Brandon]

And you test these over and over again to make sure as a player that they are what they say they are, that they're sturdy. And if, for example, if like one out of every 100 times that you jumped under one of those brick blocks, if instead of breaking it would randomly, I don't know, like warp you to the end of the level, what would you do? You would stand under that and you would jump as many times as you need to to get that outcome. Because now it's. There's a. There's a chance, right? So video games are very good at laying out the sort of non negotiables. Here's the walls, here's the levels. Here's like, the edge of the world. Here's what the characters will say. But then what you do within those rules gives you a lot of freedom. You can do whatever you want within those rules. If you want to stand and do nothing, if you want to run off the edge of the world, if you want to test them, you can. But I feel like rules and boundaries for kids provide that sense of like, here's the world we're in. Here are the things that you can count on, whether or not you like that. Right. Sometimes we don't like the rules that are presented to us in a game or in real life. But then we know, okay, so my freedom is within these things. And there's a lot of agency and a lot of autonomy that comes from that.

[Dr. Becky]

I think that is so beautifully stated. And the thing about it that it also makes you think about is, let's say in Super Mario, right? Where when I'm little, I'm not gonna, like, maybe be able to reach the bricks or break it, right? Where if I try over and over and I'm little. Try the bricks. Bricks aren't like, getting mad at me. The bricks aren't like, come on, Mario, come on. Why you keep doing this, Mario? Like, the bricks are just the bricks. They're like, I kind of know my rule. And, like, little Mario can press me as many times as Little Mario wants, and nothing's gonna happen. They don't like the bricks. Don't take it personally.

[Ash Brandon]

Thousand percent. Yes. The. I'm so glad you picked up on that. Yes. The video game enforces the rules consistently but neutrally, right? So you can do all that rule breaking or attempted rule breaking as many times as you want, and the game is not going to admonish you. And it's not gonna be like, how many times do we have to tell you, stop trying this. This is not what you're supposed to be doing, Right? And there is freedom in that. There is a sense of autonomy in that, in being able to test that just to make sure. And I will say, as someone who still plays video games in my life, if I'm talking to a character in the game, I will talk to them at least three times to make sure that I've heard everything they're gonna say. And then once they start looping, I Think. Okay, I can stop talking to them now because I've made sure I've exhausted all the information. But I learned that by testing.

[Dr. Becky]

Yeah.

[Ash Brandon]

And that's obviously that's more fun in a video game than it is when you're the parent in real life.

[Dr. Becky]

There's no prizes.

[Ash Brandon]

No. No coins. Yeah. And there's no like power ups and. No.

[Dr. Becky]

I know which. One of the things I always say is like, I think about boundaries a lot. And you know, I think people have some unconscious fantasy for me that like I go over to my kids and let's say it is screen time. Screen time is over and you're allowed to be upset. And my kid's like, you are such a sturdy leader. I really love you. You're really crushing it right now. Two coins. It's never happened.

[Ash Brandon]

No.

[Dr. Becky]

You usually get rewarded with a tantrum at first. That's usually the reward. Like, you know. Although over time, if you are relatively consistent. None of us are all the time. Then those reactions decrease because on some level your kid thinks, this is how the world works. I got it. Now I'll move on to the next one to test.

[Ash Brandon]

Exactly right. There's that feeling of consistency. And that doesn't necessarily mean they like it. And we also know, and I know this is something you say a lot is I take a lot of, I do a lot of comparisons between video games or technology and food. And I think a lot about the division of responsibility model with food. You know, parent or an adult is.

[Dr. Becky]

In control of like Ellen Satter.

[Ash Brandon]

Yeah, of Ellen. What is available and when.

[Dr. Becky]

Right.

[Ash Brandon]

And a child decides how much to eat of what's available. Well, I really think about screens the same way. An adult decides what content is available and when. And a child decides what to do within the content that is allowed, which might mean they're doing something ridiculous for that half hour because they're testing a rule. But I think the other part that's really important is that a child's job is also to have feelings about it.

[Dr. Becky]

Yeah.

[Ash Brandon]

And they're really good at that part of their job.

[Dr. Becky]

They really. It seems like every generation we're getting a little better. There's a lot of. A lot of range of feelings. No, no, it really is true. And look, you know, one of the reframes, whether we're talking about screen time or anything else with boundaries is when you realize your kids big feelings are actually a sign. You just set a boundary. Because some parents know it's hard for me to set boundaries and I'm Working on setting boundaries. And it is true. It would be amazing if the world worked where it's hard for me to set a boundary. So when I set a boundary, I get coins and unicorns and rainbows and, you know, that would end an ice cream cone. That doesn't happen. But having a signal is helpful. So if you start realizing my kids whining and complaining or protesting, it's not the sign I would choose, but it is a sign that I just set a boundary. I think it's less likely you interpret it as a sign you're doing something wrong and actually a sign you're doing your job right.

[Ash Brandon]

Yes. And I think with technology, and particularly with screens, I think it hits a little bit differently. I think for a lot of parents is in that moment, I think we're in that place mentally where we might already be wrestling with, should I even allow this? Should I have said yes to this? I'm worried about what it might do. And then if at the end they're protesting, we reasonably are thinking, like, there's that part of your brain, or at least my brain, that's like, you should be happy I said it at all, 100%.

[Dr. Becky]

Can you not assuage my guilt with your compliance?

[Ash Brandon]

Right.

[Dr. Becky]

Like, for real. Isn't that what my kid's supposed to do?

[Ash Brandon]

But also it's like, okay, if we peel that back too. It's like, okay, if we were in another scenario, if we were at a playground, at a pool, at a friend's house and they protested our tantrum because they didn't want to leave, we probably wouldn't blame the playground. Interesting. And we probably wouldn't blame the pool. You know, a freaking pool.

[Dr. Becky]

Pools are bad.

[Ash Brandon]

And we also probably would not say, well, we can't come to this playground ever again. We instead are able to look through the medium and see the skill and see, okay, so it's hard to leave fun places. It's hard to stop in the middle of things, whatever the underlying feeling is.

[Dr. Becky]

Yes.

[Ash Brandon]

And that's often what's happening when kids are having a hard time on technology and because we might have our own association with that technology. Like, I shouldn't be doing this. I am a bad parent. If I do this, then that kind of supersedes. And that's why I talk so much about having neutrality. Because when we can be neutral, that doesn't mean it's a free for all. Right. Like, chips are neutral morally, and broccoli is neutral morally. And we can offer them in different amounts or with different frequencies. And we can be similar with how we think about technology. Because when I can think about it neutrally, then I can also make comparisons to other parts of my kid's life and see the skill and how it transfers.

[Dr. Becky]

I really mean this. That is, it's such a brilliant layer to add to this. I haven't ever thought about that before, so I feel like that's one part of this conversation is going to stick with me, that it is so true. Our kids get upset at the end of screen time. Our kids get upset when we say they can't have a third ice cream scoop if they had or whatever. The rule is our kids get upset. Exactly.

[Ash Brandon]

Sometimes they get upset when we say yes to the thing they just asked us for.

[Dr. Becky]

That is very true. Again, it's the being so good at feelings in this generation and so rarely in those situations, probably because it's not so complicated by our own set of conflicts or guilt or narrative that we are more likely to realize it is so hard to end things that are fun. It is so hard to stop things that you want to keep doing. It is so hard for something that's enjoyable to ever feel like enough. Right. But with screens, we are so quick to rattle off like, we're never doing this again and I'm throwing away your iPad and this is bad and I knew it. And I'm a horrible parent. And I think you're so right that, that, you know, has to do with what we've been telling ourselves and our narrative. And if we do see it as, again, it's always hard to end things that are fun. That's true for 4 year olds and 44 year olds.

[Ash Brandon]

Absolutely right.

[Dr. Becky]

Like no one. I think humans are just never that good at wanting things and not having them. And I don't know if we ever want to be that good at them. You want to be good enough to function in society, but it's good to know what you want. Yeah. It drives you. Right, Right.

[Ash Brandon]

And also, and I think this is part of it too, it's okay to have leisure, be leisure. And I think with something like screens or video games or more passive activities in terms of like their productivity. Right. I think we might look at that and go, well, they. But they could have been doing something better with their time. But leisure for the sake of leisure is also valid and everybody deserves that. And that includes our kids.

[Dr. Becky]

Okay, so now this is like, this is like not on my questions, like throw these out. But you just, you know, brought something up in me. I'll never Forget talking to my therapist years ago, and I was talking about coming home with our kids, being exhausted on Sundays because we often would travel for the weekend and so tired. And, you know, my kids would go off and do their thing, and my husband would be on the couch chilling for a little bit. I was just telling my therapist, like, something's wrong with him. Like, I don't understand. Like, there's so much to unpack. There's so much unpack. And, like, I don't get it. And, like, then we get in a fight. Of course. And I'll never forget my therapist saying, I think you need his help. And I was like, yeah, I know. And he goes, just let me finish. She goes, I think you need his help sitting on the couch. Literally, like, I don't think you heard me.

[Ash Brandon]

Is he pending a secret?

[Dr. Becky]

Yeah, like, literally, like, what the fresh heck is happening? Because, like, no, no, he needs to help me. And he's like, you sound really tired, and, like, some version of rest is not a reward. And also, if I'm gonna be direct, I think you're so triggered because there's a part of you that wants to sit on the couch and you don't know how to give yourself permission. I was like, do you have a couch? Why does it always come back to us? But I think, is this all connected to, like, when I see my kids, you're like, yeah, it is connected.

[Ash Brandon]

Well, keep going. Cause I went into the floor, I.

[Dr. Becky]

See it, and I feel like you could be reading. Like, you could be doing art. Like, can we finish this? Let's play a family board game. I do love board games. And, like, I just. It's hard for me to. It's hard for. Maybe it's just. It's hard for me to stay neutral. I haven't thought about that word since you've been saying it. It's hard for me to stay neutral.

[Ash Brandon]

Yeah, I hadn't really thought of it quite in the terms that you have. I often think of it from the kind of weight that we put on our own parenting ability or our goodness as a parent. And I think we want to do right by our kids, and we want to always be doing the best for our kids. And that is a noble thing. That's not a bad thing. And so if our kids are doing something like using their iPad or watching a movie, we kind of put into that all the things we can think of that we think hold more value. This is a reason that there's a phrase of, like, think about what is screen Time replacing. And I have taken a lot of umbrage with this phrase because if you're coming from a place of thinking of screens as bad, you're gonna fill that, what they could be doing instead with every single thing that you can think of that would be better. Right. And it might, maybe that's, you know, they could be playing a board game instead of a video game. They could be reading a book instead of reading the words on the screen. They could be. You're gonna come up with this litany of things. And so it really means like, well, then we're not thinking of it as like a tool. We're not thinking of it in this neutral place. And I think it's a big part of our own judgment of ourselves, of feeling like, well, if they're doing this and they're just doing it for fun, which is a valid reason to do it, but if they're just doing it for fun, it's almost as if we're condoning it's.

[Dr. Becky]

Yeah, like, I guess I have almost like, I'm just thinking about it now. It's coming up for me as I'm saying, it's like a fear of laziness or it's gonna, you know, take over and crowd out the other stuff. And I think what you're saying is like just putting screens aside, like, what is our relationship with rest with just, you know, fun with something that's not, quote, productive toward an outcome. Because if we know as an adult that we have some stuff there that'll probably act itself out a little bit in how we approach screen time with kids.

[Ash Brandon]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And involving something in our kids lives. We have so many parts of our kids lives that we make sure they get exposed to. And that doesn't mean that they are just unconditional and that there's no rules or guidance or boundaries around those things. Right. Like, we have many neutral parts of the day, like bath time, but we also wouldn't let our kids stay in the bathtub for six hours. Right, right. Like, and we also probably wouldn't let them be the only person to guide that decision. So by that, that neutrality piece allows us to think, well, okay, if we want our kids to think of technology or screens as being just another part of their lives and it's not a huge deal and they don't need to obsess over them, then we have to treat them like not a big deal. And that doesn't mean they're available as much as reading or bath time or family time. But we can still be neutral in the framing around them. And that also makes it a lot easier as the parent or the caregiver to hold that boundary because we've sort of removed the emotional weight that we might have been holding around it.

[Dr. Becky]

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[Ash Brandon]

Yeah. Yeah. So depends kind of how you want to define that. A lot of the research literature that looks at impacts of different amounts and quantifies things like more problematic relationships with gaming or screen time, they tend to define excessive use as generally like four or more hours per day. But even that depends on the study you're reading. They might be talking about like just playing a video game. They might be talking about different uses of screens. And when it comes down to, you know, our real lives, I'll sometimes have families who reach out and say like, okay, but if my kid is on a Chromebook at school, does that count? What if they're typing in a document? What if they're reading an ebook, does that count? And it's so easy to get into the granular minutiae. And that's why I like to sort of pull back and instead ask like, is this an amount that is working for everyone and allowing us to get our needs met? And is it also like sustainable in terms of the management I have to put in? Right. Like if I am letting my kid watch a 30 minute episode of Paw Patrol while I make dinner, but then at the end it's a 25 minute meltdown to end it well then that I'm not getting it right, I'm having to invest a lot of time to get that 30 minutes. But that is information. And so instead of immediately being like, I knew it, I shouldn't have let you Watch that. If instead we go, okay, what about this? Coming back to the need, what's the need? If the need is, I have no other caregiver and I want to make a meal that isn't frozen chicken nuggets for the third day in a row, and I need to be able to safely be in my kitchen, and so I need my kid occupied. Okay, that's the need then. Yeah. A screen might be the tool that you need in that moment if there isn't another one available. And if that's my need. Okay, if today, wow, Paw patrol really did not work. That was rough. What can I change? I can't change that. I need to change that need met. I can't change that I don't have another caregiver available. I can't change if we don't have access to a playground my kid can play alone at. But I could change what show they watch, or maybe I change going to the park right before. So they've had some big input, and maybe that makes, like, the dysregulation not as impactful that day. So that neutrality allows us to see it as data, as information, and then we can shift and try things out to figure out what's gonna work for us. And that also shows our kids how they can apply that to their lives as they grow up.

[Dr. Becky]

And the layer that I often think about when parents ask me these questions is I think there's so many other factors here, because one of the things I think about a lot with screens, again, is not moral, not good or bad. But one of the things I think we all want for our kids is for them to learn that success, that excitement, that dopamine, you know, does not always come quickly or to them. It's not something they can just easily consume. And, for example, like, I sometimes need to work hard before I get success. I can create things, and it's messy, and I can take ideas inside me and make towers or do things right. Now, I agree that does not have to be mutually exclusive with screens. But when I'm often talking to families about is an amount working to me, where often families say it's stopping working, or where they maybe wish they did things a little differently, is where they see this pattern of. My kid is almost so accustomed to, quote, success and dopamine coming to them with relatively little effort that their tolerance for other forms of play, their tolerance for learning how to read, which is just a lot of effort, I see it lower. And so in the early years, the one things I say to parents Is it's not about. Again, every family's so different. I hate the idea of like, this is the amount or this is like every family's different. I don't know what's going on. There's so many factors. You say equity is a huge thing too, but you just think like, does my kid have opportunities where, by the way, I'll probably have to tolerate their frustration. They're going to whine, they're going to tantrum. Right. But where they are building kind of some emotion regulation skills for working hard at something and sticking with things and trying things and negotiating and doing things that are really complex without some immediate reward, I think is like a really important offset.

[Ash Brandon]

Absolutely. I remember actually the other conversation that we had about screens. You frame something in a particular way that I come back to and think about all the time. And it was similar to this and it was more from the kind of more extreme side talking to, I think, people you'd work with who were in like coming out of addiction, but with substances, not with technology. And I remember you saying something about like, if we're trying to find something that can kind of function as not like a direct supplement, but we're trying to kind of shift that, it's not going to be as satisfying. Right. If I am suffering, if I am in an addictive relationship with a substance and I'm suddenly like, I'm gonna do.

[Dr. Becky]

Yoga, not gonna feel as good as fast. Nope.

[Ash Brandon]

It's not gonna be the same. Right. So we can't find a direct substitute. And I think what you're saying too is that we don't want necessarily to find a direct substitute. So one of the things that screens are very good at is they are very dense, immediate and consistent feedback.

[Dr. Becky]

Yes.

[Ash Brandon]

And in ways that the real world just doesn't do and would be nice sometimes if it would. But even if I'm a two year old and I'm trying to balance blocks versus a block tower on an iPad, those blocks on that iPad, they're always going to have the same center of gravity and they're always going to go the same way and they might have the same wobbly animation every time. So I know I have to make an adjustment and all of that is gonna be a lot more immediate and a lot more consistent than the physical blocks. So I like to frame things that is thinking not as a substitute, but instead as a supplement.

[Dr. Becky]

Yes. I think that's it. We're both like, it's a part of your world and not all of your world.

[Ash Brandon]

And I've had that same conversation at, in my own household when it came to, like, coloring, like, apps, where it's like, well, I just click this and I click this, and now it's, like, fully saturated. And I'm like, I get it. It is deeply satisfying. I totally get it. And I also want you to be able to color that in just as satisfyingly, and it will take more time. And we're gonna try that right now.

[Dr. Becky]

Yep.

[Ash Brandon]

And like you said, some days I have the capacity, and I know I have the time, I have the capacity, I have the emotional wherewithal that I can sit with you in this discomfort and help you manage this discomfort. That's a skill I can help you with right now. And some days I don't. And so if that's not something that I have available to me again, one of the benefits of the neutrality is that then I'm not in my brain going like, oh, my gosh, they're only going to want to color on this iPad ever again. They're never going to pick up a pencil. I'm not going to doom spiral and catastrophize, but instead, I can go, okay, I can't handle this right now. Today, they're gonna color on the iPad. And mental note, like, we need to make sure we're also getting in some of these other opportunities.

[Dr. Becky]

I love that.

[Ash Brandon]

Yeah.

[Dr. Becky]

Well, look, your work. Thank you. And your book is, you know, is so wonderful. Any kind of final or things you're like, oh, I just have to get this in final thoughts or something you really want a parent to know.

[Ash Brandon]

I think the other aspect I'd just add that I think we've talked a lot around, but maybe not directly about, is there are many reasons that are, like, reasonable to have fear when it comes to technology. I think especially as our kids get older, we start feeling afraid of things that could be bad or dangerous or feel really just scary. And we want to obviously want to protect our kids. And we, at least for myself, I don't tend to do my best parenting or even like, existing when I am coming from a place of fear, because all I can really do is react. I can't really be particularly proactive. Yeah. And I think with things like as kids get older, we're thinking about, like, smartphones or social media and all the things that can come with that. We want to shield our kids from it. And again, I think that's like, a reasonable concern that people have, and they want to shield their kids from it. And I like to make a Comparison to thinking about pools. We just mentioned pools a few minutes ago. But thinking about pools, because pools are fun, have a lot of opportunity. Bodies of water can enrich your life and they are inherently dangerous. Yeah, right. Like we are not born suddenly able to swim and navigate and do all those things. And we also know that because a pool or body of water is dangerous, we have to give our kids the skills they need to navigate that thing. So what I try to do in conversations like this, but also in my book, is to really emphasize how am I thinking about the skills that my child may need to navigate something, even if it's just balance between responsibilities and leisure, both are valid. We also have to find a way to make them all work. And something like being able to navigate something that can be dangerous. And when we're able to see through to the skill, instead of focusing on the fear I have about what could go wrong, then we're able to empower our child and empower ourselves. And I think that when we're coming from a place of fear, we're not going to be empowered, we're not going to be able to empower them. But being able to focus on this skill and then we can help them see all the ways that applies and then that helps them in their lives as they grow up, whether it's in the digital world or the real world.

[Dr. Becky]

I love that, the shift from fear to empowerment and skills. So thank you. It's a great note to end on. Well, thank you. Look forward to talking to you again soon. Awesome.

[Ash Brandon]

Thank you for having me.

[Dr. Becky]

I don't know about you, but for me, the biggest thing I took from the conversation is realizing how loaded screen time is and actually how I can make better decisions that I feel good about with my kids when I do kind of strip away the shame and I look at it as one part of their life and figuring out what works for the family and not adding such an intense layer of judgment that will actually help me show up in a way I feel prouder about. Anyway, let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground, place a hand on your heart. And let's remind ourselves even as I struggle on the outside, I remain good inside. I can't wait to see you next time. Thank you to our sponsors, Play doh, Brand Chomps and Sitter City.