ADHD Beyond the Label with Penn and Kim Holderness

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary
Podcast: Good Inside with Dr. Becky
Episode: ADHD Beyond the Label with Penn and Kim Holderness
Release Date: December 16, 2025
Host: Dr. Becky Kennedy
Guests: Penn and Kim Holderness

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Episode Overview

This episode explores ADHD beyond its clinical diagnosis with guests Penn and Kim Holderness—parents, creators, and authors of "ADHD is Awesome" and their new children’s book, "All You Can Be with ADHD." Together with Dr. Becky, they discuss reframing ADHD from a “disorder” into a difference, highlighting gifts, emotional depth, and creative strengths. They candidly share personal stories, practical parenting strategies, and emphasize the importance of understanding and supporting deeply feeling kids. The conversation is rich with empathy, humor, and actionable advice.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Experiences with ADHD

• Penn's Diagnosis Journey
  • Diagnosed at 20, struggled with "feeling deeply," emotional overwhelm, and being constantly corrected as a child.
  • “I cried a lot. Not just as a toddler, but in middle school… Getting the explanation when I was 20 was at least a good start in the right direction.” (03:22)
• Kim’s Perspective as a Parent and Partner
  • Emotional dysregulation often overlooked; realized how it impacted both her son’s childhood and her marriage.
  • “The emotional component… people often don’t talk about. My son, when he lost a basketball game… Could not be consoled. Felt everything so deeply.” (04:53)

2. The Problem with the “Disorder” Label

• The language around ADHD is inherently negative, leaving out key aspects like emotional regulation and focusing instead on deficits.
  • “The name's terrible. We don't have a deficit of attention… Many of us, including most girls who are underdiagnosed, it's not hyperactive. It's inattentive. That's not in the name... A more accurate term would be a brain difference.” (08:22–08:54)
• Diagnosis can initially feel heavy—even for parents immersed in ADHD awareness—evoking feelings akin to receiving a dire medical diagnosis.
  • “It felt like we got this really awful medical diagnosis... It was going to be just like this really hard thing that he was going to suffer with the rest of his life.” (09:41)

3. Reframing ADHD: Strengths & Coaching

• Diagnosis as a tool for understanding, not as a limitation.
  • Dr. Becky’s Basketball Analogy: A diagnosis can empower you to coach and support better, rather than resigning to limitations. (10:36)
  • “Nothing has changed about your kid. Like your kid before the label and after is no different." (10:36)
• Strengths-based teaching versus focusing exclusively on correcting deficits. (11:59–12:00)

4. Connection Over Correction

• Leading with empathy and connection calms overwhelm and supports problem-solving, both in children and relationships.
  • “The hard thing to do is to start with the connection. But… there is a palpable difference in our son, as well as in me, when [Kim] makes that connection happen.” (13:05)
• Dr. Becky’s Visual: Emotional overwhelm as a bubble that needs containment—a “container” created by parental connection enables kids to access their skills.
  • “Offering connection is a form of containment. When you say to someone, ‘I used to feel like that…’ you’re giving a container for someone’s feelings...” (15:47)
• Shame Spiral vs. Support Staircase
  • Penn: “It’s the difference between a shame spiral and a support staircase.” (16:24)
  • Support and understanding help foster accountability more than shame or blame. (16:58–18:31)

5. Deeply Feeling Kid Framework

• The concept helped Penn understand his emotional experiences in a nonjudgmental way, offering validation for himself and his child.
  • “Not only is [deeply feeling kid] the perfect explanation, but it’s also non-negative. It's not crybaby… If I'd heard ‘deeply feeling kid’ as a child, I think it acknowledges that… that's a skill.” (19:00–20:42)
• Dr. Becky: “A kid’s deepest fear is actually being un-understandable… If no one believes me, it's like, do I exist? Am I real?” (20:43)
• Emphasizes the overlap and connection between ADHD and emotional intensity.

6. Practical Strategies at Home

• Removing the ‘Right’ Path:
  • Celebrating multiple ways of succeeding; “finding where you’re awesome” rather than enforcing conformity.
  • “We make this a family practice… when we see [our son] doing something amazing that only his brain can do...” (24:17)
• Routines & Systems:
  • Digital calendars, multiple alarms, prepping for tomorrow, family flexibility.
  • Humor and strengths-based language help, e.g., “I will take care of my tomorrow self by…” (27:14–27:52)
  • Kim: “There's more than one way to do this.” (26:32)
• Finding Community & Creative Outlets:
  • Improv comedy and writing leveraged as positive environments for their son’s spontaneity and creativity. (25:55–26:32)
  • Supporting strengths in environments where ADHD traits shine.

7. Advice for Parents & Kids Navigating Diagnosis

• For Parents:
  • Don’t fear the diagnosis. It’s a gateway to understanding, not a limitation.
  • Penn: “This is going to take a lot of your fears away… That same brain is capable of things a neurotypical person cannot do.” (33:04)
• For Kids:
  • You are not alone; nothing is wrong with you. Your brain is cool and full of potential.
  • “You are not alone and there is nothing inherently wrong with you. You have a really cool brain.” (34:05)

8. Their Children’s Book: Meeting Kids Where They Are

• Developed after hearing directly from kids at signings who wanted something accessible to them.
  • Kim: “…we had the opportunity to go to a lot of book signings… and there would be so many kids there and… they were trying… to read it. But really, it wasn't meant for an 8 year old… So it came because they literally said like, you have to make a book for us.” (34:33–35:26)
• Favorite Book Moment:
  • Penn: “If you answer, yes, you are so very brave. And that's my favorite.” (35:50)
  • Kids’ pride and relief at being seen and acknowledged: “There was pride, but there was like an acknowledgement of like, oh, my God, you know that too. You know what that feels like.” (36:16)

9. Rapid Fire: Insights and Misconceptions

• ADHD has taught Kim patience; Penn’s stopped apologizing for fidgeting; Kim celebrates her son’s comedic creativity; Penn sees “making things fun” as an ADHD parenting strength. (38:10–39:22)
• Biggest Misconception:
  • Penn: ADHD is more than executive function—it’s about emotions.
  • Kim: ADHD is not an intellectual or academic deficit.
  • “You can get all A's and have ADHD.” (40:13)

10. Closing - Celebration and Acceptance

• Celebrate moments of flow and happiness, notice and champion your child’s unique strengths.
  • “Celebrate those moments when your child is truly happy and feeling the flow.” (41:03)
• Dr. Becky: ADHD as a lens to understand, not to limit; “two things are true: it’s hard, and it’s amazing.” (37:30)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On ADHD as a “difference”:

  • Penn: “We don’t have a deficit of attention. We have plenty of attention. We just focus it in the wrong place… A more accurate term would be a brain difference.” (08:22–08:54)

• Reframing diagnosis:

  • Dr. Becky: “Nothing has changed about your kid. Like your kid before the label and after is no different.” (10:36)

• On emotional support:

  • Kim: “If I come at him screaming… it’s going to make him feel great shame… but if I say, ‘Hey, this must have been a lot to manage,’” (15:47)
  • Penn: “It’s the difference between a shame spiral and a support staircase.” (16:24)

• On deeply feeling kids:

  • Penn: “If I'd heard ‘deeply feeling kid’ as a child… that's a skill to be able to feel deeply.” (20:42)
  • Dr. Becky: “A kid’s deepest fear is actually being un-understandable… if no one believes me… do I exist? Am I real?” (20:43)

• On strengths and creativity:

  • Kim: “He spots things in this world and makes them so funny, and I don't know another brain that could do that.” (39:05)
  • Penn: “Making things fun… my ADHD creativity has helped with that.” (39:22)

• Ending humor:

  • Penn: “It was Coach K's last game, and Carolina beat Duke. And my son took his shirt off and waved it like a helicopter... I'm sorry, have I hit a nerve?” (41:34)
  • Dr. Becky (jokingly): “I don't even know if I'm gonna air this episode… you bring together the truth, naming hard things, naming amazing things, deshaming, humor like that all can be part of one dance.” (42:01)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:22] – Penn’s personal journey with ADHD
• [04:53] – Kim discusses emotional dysregulation and parenting
• [08:22–08:54] – Critique of the label “ADHD”
• [10:36] – Reframing diagnosis via basketball analogy
• [15:47] – Emotional containment and “offering connection”
• [16:24] – “Shame spiral” vs. “support staircase”
• [19:00–20:42] – The power of “deeply feeling kid”
• [24:17] – Family systems and celebrating strengths
• [27:14–27:52] – Building routines, “taking care of tomorrow self”
• [33:04] – Advice for newly diagnosed families
• [34:33–35:26] – Motivation behind the children’s book
• [35:50] – Book’s message of bravery and recognition
• [38:10–39:41] – Rapid fire strengths, shifts, and apologies
• [41:03] – Final message: celebrate flow and happiness

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Final Takeaway

Dr. Becky, Penn, and Kim challenge listeners to reimagine ADHD as a different, deeply feeling way of being—rich with creativity, spontaneity, and empathy—rather than a deficit or disorder. They encourage parents to seek understanding, lead with connection, celebrate strengths, and help kids (and themselves) thrive in their unique ways.

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Transcript

[Narrator/Host]

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[Dr. Becky]

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[Narrator/Host]

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[Dr. Becky]

And the best part?

[Narrator/Host]

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[Dr. Becky]

So many parents come to me asking, my kid was just diagnosed with adhd. Where do I even start? There's confusion, sometimes there's guilt, sometimes there's fear. And parents often feel like they're doing something wrong that their kid can't focus or follow through. Now, ADHD can be complicated, but what I want you to know right from the start is that while it can be challenging, ADHD also signifies that your kid has some amazing gifts. Their brain works in a way that other people's brains don't, which means that in other environments and situations, they thrive. Like most things in life, two things are true. Today I'm talking with Penn and Kim Halderness, their parents, their creators. They. They are children's book authors and they wrote this incredible children's book about adhd. It's this beautiful story that helps empower kids, helps kids feel understood, and I think also gives parents a lens to better understand ADHD and what it does and doesn't mean. Today we're gonna talk about adhd. We're also gonna talk about the overlap with deeply feeling kids, and we're gonna talk about what we works, learning strengths. And you're just going to get so much out of it, maybe for your kid or maybe for yourself. I'm Dr. Becky and this is good inside. We'll be back right after this. Hi, guys.

[Kim Halderness]

Hi.

[Penn Halderness]

Good to see you again.

[Dr. Becky]

Good to see you. I am so excited for this conversation. We are going to talk so many things. We're going to focus on adhd, the way you guys think about it, and a framework that I think is going to empower so many people. So let's just start with the basics. What is your experience with adhd? Kind of personally and in parenting?

[Penn Halderness]

I'll start with personally. I. I was diagnosed when I was 20, so the first 20 years of my life were a bit confusing. I definitely knew that I was a little bit different from everyone else, particularly on the playground. I don't. I didn't have as much trouble in school until later on when critical thinking came up. But as a kid, I cried a lot. And not. Not just when I was a toddler, but when I was in middle school. I found myself getting, like, really emotionally overwhelmed in certain situations or just so happy that I couldn't control myself on that end as well. You know, sitting still was not really a great option for me. When I had to sit still, the way that I released my energy was by chewing on my T shirt for several years to the point that I would have this, like, giant collar of saliva. And it grossed out all of my friends, all of my teachers and my parents. And the response was, well, you just gotta stop doing that. And, you know, I. I just. Like every other ADHD kid, I got corrected a lot, know when. When I was doing something wrong. But the toughest part was, you know, in. In the playground. And it wasn't like I grew up in the mean streets. It was. I was in a suburban town and things didn't go my way and I could not stop from. From feeling deeply and tearing up. And so getting the explanation when I was 20 was at least a good start in the right direction. But there were even more challenges after.

[Kim Halderness]

That and I think in parenting. So we wrote our first book, ADHD is Awesome. And we just honestly were deeply curious about how this was impacting our marriage and how adhd. And so something we learned in that process that I was unprepared for is the emotional dysregulation part of ADHD that everybody talks about. You know, oh, you're squirmy and you, you know, can't sit still and you lose focus. But the Emotional component to me is so such a big thing that people often don't talk about. And it. So my son, he's now 15, has ADHD. And when he was diagnosed, I'm like, oh, my God, that explains so much. That explains him, you know, losing a basketball game that. Where there's nothing on a line. He could not be consoled. Felt everything so deeply. And. And I was like, oh, God, get it together. You're nine, you know, and. But he could not. And it just explained. It explained so much.

[Penn Halderness]

Thanks for letting us steal. Feeling deeply, like, twice in that conversation.

[Kim Halderness]

Deeply feeling.

[Penn Halderness]

Kid stealing that. Because we learned that from you.

[Kim Halderness]

Yeah, we learned those words from you. Yes.

[Dr. Becky]

Oh, well, it's true, though. Like, you see a kid, and I think, Pen, it goes to what you were saying too. So many times when our kids have any type of inconvenient behavior, we think, stop that. Stop that, versus, well, like, what's going on underneath that? And I think then we confuse that. People will then say to me, and I know you two wouldn't. Oh, so then it's just okay. Like, we're not talking about whether a behavior is okay or is not. We're just talking about whether we wanna be effective in understanding it and intervening and. How could you be effective in intervening with, I don't know, a kid's layup if you don't understand why they're missing the layup? Like, trying to understand why they're missing doesn't mean you think it's cool that they're missing. It's just the only way you could coach them is to understand it. And I think there's something about behavior in kids. Probably gets hundreds of years of being parented through punishment and control. I don't know. It's like in our bones where we forget. Oh, of course. I have to understand why a kid is crying about basketball at age 9 or why a kid is squirmy or why a kid does this. So I can actually figure out what they might need, right?

[Kim Halderness]

100%.

[Penn Halderness]

Yeah. I mean, we're talking about. We're talking about corrections and we've. That's really all we knew. It's probably all our parents knew. It's definitely all our parents. Parents used to. Used to do. I went to. I don't know if I should tell the story. I went to visit my grandfather one time when I was, like, 3 years old. And I got. My dad told me the story. He's like, I got. I got back and my dad was like, how was your trip? And I just kept saying, pop pop, Hank, Pop pop pink. Like that was something I had. But the point is that the evolution.

[Dr. Becky]

Yeah.

[Penn Halderness]

We're getting better, right?

[Kim Halderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Becky]

Yeah. Yes.

[Kim Halderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Becky]

And I wonder if it has to do with, like, I always think. I think diagnosis. Let me just be clear. Can be so helpful. Okay. And like many other things that are nuanced, so many times, the words for diagnosis feel so judgmental, where, at least in adults at any age, I'm like, well, everything we're doing is an adaptation. We're trying to adapt. And then we put these mean words like oppositional defiant disorder. You know, ADHD is like a disorder. And so I'm curious how. How you think about that label that word. Is there another way to reframe it, or is it useful to think of it as a disorder? How do you two see that?

[Penn Halderness]

The biggest issue is there's no mention of the emotional component. And, you know, it's. It's. It's a regulatory difference. The name's terrible.

[Kim Halderness]

Terrible.

[Penn Halderness]

Like. Yeah, I'm sorry. It is. We don't have a deficit of attention. We have plenty of attention. We just focus it in the wrong place a lot of the time. Many of us, including most girls who are under diagnosed, it's not hyperactive. It's inattentive. That's not in the name. And, you know, you could call it a disorder if you want to. I think a more accurate term would be a brain difference.

[Kim Halderness]

So, yeah, a difference. A delay. I don't. It is one of the worst names. And it's.

[Dr. Becky]

We were.

[Kim Halderness]

We were doing active work, researching for our book. We didn't know it was going to be a book at that time, but we were. I was trying to learn a lot, honestly, for the sake of our marriage. And when my son was diagnosed, we had. We assumed. But, you know, when you're in school, you need the paperwork and the, like, all the. All the stuff. Even get it, hearing it when it was delivered to me, and in a house where ADHD is like, we talk about it, we celebrate it. It felt so heavy. And my son. It felt like we got this really awful medical diagnosis. You know, some. Some really. It was going to be just like this really hard thing that he was going to suffer with the rest of his life was like, you.

[Dr. Becky]

You have cancer? Kind of like, yeah.

[Kim Halderness]

And it felt so heavy. And we got in the car, and I was like, rewind. Pause.

[Dr. Becky]

We.

[Kim Halderness]

We know that this is going to be okay. We know that this. This. This is wrong. We know the amazing things Your brain is going to do. Called Penn. So when we went, by the time we got home, he had like, he was like, let's party. You have a brain like mine. Let's do it. Let's figure this out. Like, what are you good at? What do we need help with? Like the refrain.

[Penn Halderness]

Yeah. The diagnosis point is we talked about it in our kids book and there's like a picture we. The biggest illustration we have in the book is the diagnosis. And okay, Becky's got it. It's like eight or nine pages in. It's. It's the name and then it, the name is literally causing the child to cower into the corner because. Yeah, so you see the girl there? She is it. You know, because it made me. It definitely, it definitely hits you with three negative hammers. Deficit hyperactivity and disorder.

[Dr. Becky]

And you know, it's. So one of my friends whose husband coaches basketball, actually I just keep going the basketball metaphors. But the kid was diagnosed with ADHD and she was like, oh my goodness. And one of the things I said to her is, first of all, I just wanna remind you nothing has changed about your kid. Like your kid before the label and after is no different. Okay? So let's just remember that she's like, that's helpful. And I said, let's think about it this way. Let's say because they're talking to her and her husband, there was a new player on the basketball team and this kid tend to dribble a lot and like was often late to pass the ball. Okay. And he came in and he said, you know when someone told you this kid has a passing disorder, they have a passing disorder right? Now here's why that wouldn't be useful. Well, he's never gonna learn how to pass. Well, he's not gonna be a good player. Here's why that could be useful. Oh, he's a little late to pass sometimes. He's also a really frickin good dribbler. Okay, that's really interesting. How might I coach him differently? What might he need in a different way? By the way, this kid still wants to play basketball. We have to help him. But this can actually help me think about how to coach him. And I feel like I don't know if that resonates right. And it kind of speaks to how a label can feel so heavy or it can feel like this way of learning how to best empower your kid.

[Penn Halderness]

Strengths based teaching.

[Kim Halderness]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's so funny you go to athletics because we use a lot of Athletic metaphors in our house as well. But as. As a parent, something I have learned too is, and I learned this from professionals, and I'm still working on it, is when the situation arises, like, does the homework but doesn't turn it in. Like, the frustrating thing that seems so easy, we do go to, like, correction or, I mean, I'm sorry, connection, then correction. And it's like, this sounds. This is. This is. Must be really hard to get a zero on that assignment. So tell me, like, what do. What do we need to. What do we need to work on? And so it immediately, even with my husband, it like, the temperature comes down a little bit. And I'm not saying I never cracked, but just to be able to, like, match that. And the more text teachers and coaches and like, we're hearing a lot of feedback that, like, how especially middle school coaches, it's like, there's one way to do it and that's the only way. The more they can understand, like, how these different brains work, you're going to get so much more out of these kids.

[Penn Halderness]

And it's understandable for parents, like, the instinct is to be like, this is your homework. All you had to do is this. Just push it for. And that. That's like. I feel like that's been the default for parents for a while. And it's tough. As for a parent, very, very difficult and understandable. And the hard thing to do is to start with the connection. But the more you do it, the more comfortable you are. And there is a palpable difference in our son, as well as in me, when I think she's sort of the ringleader when it comes to this. When she. When she, you know, makes that connection happen.

[Dr. Becky]

Yeah. And just to put a visual to that. Okay. Because I'm very logical. So when parents are like, but why do I need to do that? My parents didn't do that. Like, I don't want to explain it theoretically. Right. Like, sometimes it's actually helpful to be like, here's why it's actually efficient when your kid is overwhelmed with homework. There's the emotions about the homework, and then there's the academic ability to do the homework. Okay. The truth is, if emotions are overpowering us, none of us can access whatever our quote, hard skills are. This is why I always think it's so funny when people talk about emotion stuff as soft skills. I was like, those are the hard skills.

[Kim Halderness]

Let's just get the order right.

[Narrator/Host]

Okay?

[Dr. Becky]

And so let's say emotions in your son are overpowering him. In his room. And you can actually visualize that. This is true for kids with adhd. This is definitely true for deeply feeling kids. They have intense feelings. It's a big bubble. Okay? What kids need with their big emotions more than anything else is containment. Because when a feeling has overpowered them, we can't make it go to zero. But if someone can give us a little bit of a container, then we're not alone in it, which means someone's almost giving us a shell to put it in. They're like, I will help hold this for you. And if someone does that for you. Now, instead of an emotion being 10 out of 10, maybe it's an 8 out of 10, right? And as soon as something's at an 8 out of 10, we can work with that. We can literally work with that. When something's at a 10 out of 10, whether you think it's right, whether you think, I wouldn't feel that way, whether you think it's ridiculous, the emotion is the truth. It's already here, people. We can't fight it. It's already happened. And so offering connection is a form of containment. When you say to someone, I used to feel like that when I started my homework, too. Ugh, this problem feels too big to solve. Ugh. You'd probably rather be doing 197 other things except for homework, and you're still trying to figure it out. I get it. That stinks. You're kind of not just connecting. I think you're giving a container for someone and they're like, great, I can put some of my feelings in, and maybe I'm left with 80%. And I think when you think about it that way, it not only becomes nice and relationship building, you understand that it's actually also the most efficient, logical thing to do.

[Kim Halderness]

I mean, you explained that so perfectly. I never knew why it worked. But I even think within our marriage, the stove gets left on or something like that. If I come at him screaming about how dangerous this is for our family, it's not going to. It's going to make him feel great shame. And, like, this is based on a true story. But if I say, hey, this obviously not cool, There must have been a lot going on when you were trying to cook dinner. What? Like, what are we going to do? Like, that is a lot to manage, what you just did.

[Penn Halderness]

It's the difference between a shame spiral and. And a support staircase.

[Dr. Becky]

We're workshopping.

[Penn Halderness]

I'm workshopping. I'm trying to. I'm trying to get my license. My coaching license.

[Dr. Becky]

So think about.

[Penn Halderness]

No, no, no. Think about. So the spiral, the shame spiral everybody knows about the support staircase is something goes wrong. And Kim says to me, man, I'm sorry. That must be hard. And instead of me spiraling downward, I feel the love, I feel the connection, and it actually causes me. And I think it causes some other people to say, man, thank you for feeling this way. I'm gonna work my butt off to try to keep this from happening again.

[Dr. Becky]

I always tell people, when you do something that you're not proud of, there's always a part of you that wants to feel defensive, and there's a part of you that wants to own it. That's true with any conflict. Like, there's a part of us that's like, man, I wish I put the stove off. And there's a part of us that's like, there's nothing I could have done. It's not my fault, right? Whatever the conflict is. Here's the interesting thing about internal conflict. As soon as anyone in your life owns one part of the conflict, you have to own the other. Meaning as soon as you say to someone, you really shouldn't have done that, like, what's wrong with you? They're like, all right, so you've taken the part of me that would feel responsible, so now the only thing I'm left with is the part of me that's like, I do everything around this house, whatever it is, and then. Which makes the other person go further. So when you say to someone, I'm sure that's not what you wanted either, right? You're not. You're actually allowing them to also say, like, yeah, I feel bad, right? So. And we see this in couples all the time. Like, you know this. As soon as someone's like, I don't wanna go to your parents for the holidays, you're like, I do. But you're like, I don't even like my parents. I don't. Why am I saying that? Because they're. And as soon as someone's like, let's go to your family, you're like, nah, nah, that's good, right? So I think it's powerful to realize, again, if we're trying to be long term focused with our kids, we don't want them to feel shame. Ironically, shame gets in the way of accountability. How counterproductive. But the more you own the you should have, the more you take away their ability to reflect on, well, what could I have done differently? What would I have needed? And that makes everyone more frustrated.

[Kim Halderness]

Do we send you the invoice for the free therapy we're getting right now? What's my copay?

[Dr. Becky]

You know what, Kim? Truly, this is the best learning experience. I learned so much from you guys and the way that you approach things. So. Okay, so, Penn, the last time we were together, you said something to me that I wanna. Because I think it's related to this conversation. You said the term deeply feeling kid or that framework was another layer to you understanding yourself. So how did. Can you. Can you say more about that?

[Penn Halderness]

Yeah, I mean, it was so. It was the best explanation to the emotional dysregulation component of ADHD. It was three really simple words and I heard it on TikTok.

[Kim Halderness]

I forwarded him one of your videos.

[Penn Halderness]

She sent me the video and I don't even know if she was doing it for me. I think it's possible she was trying to help explain our own child who was also a deeply feeling kid. But I, like, I was deeply feeling. After hearing your thing about deeply feeling kid, I had to kind of sit back and let it wash over me that this is. Not only is this like the perfect explanation, but it's also non negative. It's not crybaby. It's not easily upset. I was called a crybaby by everyone who I knew, including some teachers.

[Dr. Becky]

Oh. And I'm so. I am that it's a term. I haven't actually heard that term in so long. I don't know why I think about drama queen, dramatic, disproportionate, overreacting. But you're right, crybaby, like, tough one.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Becky]

So.

[Penn Halderness]

And I was a teenager when I got called that because I was still feeling those feelings. I was so I. I was late to. To the emotional regulation because of ADHD. I went through puberty when I was like 32. I was like a really. No, that's not true. I was. But I was like in high school, mid high school, when I finally hit my growth spurt. So like, all of those things at the same time made life difficult for me. That delay made it tough. If I had heard deeply feeling kid as a child, I think it acknowledges that. Yeah, I get overwhelmed sometimes, but also like, that's a skill to be able to feel deeply.

[Kim Halderness]

Yes.

[Dr. Becky]

And, you know, two things. Number one, I think a kid's deepest fear is actually being un. Understandable. It's the worst feeling. You almost have this existential crisis as a kid. Like these sensations in my body that feel so, so intense. If no one believes me, they think I'm overreacting. Like, there's almost like, do I exist? Am I real? Are these things real? Like, it's an awful feeling. So sometimes terms or questions, it's like, oh, like the idea that someone or a term could understand me is so relieving. Right. And so that's number one. And number two, I'm asked all the time. And what you said, Pen, really struck a nerve. Dr. Becky, or deeply healing kid framework, that, that course, whatever it is, is that gonna help my kid grow out of this? And I'm like, oh, my goodness, I hope not. That will help your kid harness everything that grow out. I don't wish that for any child harness. Let's do that. And Pen, knowing you like, and I think about what you're able to do and what you can notice. And I think so many of the best comedians, the situational comedians, are all deeply feeling kids. They notice things no one else has ever put words to or notice. But when they name them, you're like, oh, my goodness. You can have music around it and so song and play around with things. I don't know anyone who could do that, who probably wasn't, isn't a deeply feeling person.

[Penn Halderness]

Yeah. I mean, like, think about the, the sort of building blocks of entertainment. It's yes and yes and. And when you get excited about something. Yes. And also this. And also this. And. And you let your brain kind of receive it because you're. You're caught in this euphoria of creativity. It's the opposite of no, but which is where we live a fair amount of our life. Lives as well. But yeah, I think, like, I definitely, I found solace in middle school and high school in theater arts and in creativity, because I think it was a lot of other people that were similar to me and probably all had similar brains.

[Dr. Becky]

Yes.

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[Dr. Becky]

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[Dr. Becky]

So let's move from this to the practical and concrete. Like what are some of the things you, you've done in your home, in your relationships, whether your marriage or with your kid? Knowing again, this framework, adhd, deeply filling kid, all of it together. What are some of the things that have helped? Like what are some of the things that you've tried? I'm curious, like some of the rhythms you guys have.

[Kim Halderness]

It's interesting because we, we have two children and my, my daughter's now a freshman in college and very like oldest daughter stereotype. Like high achieving, straight A, type A, did everything herself, met every milestone early. Like you know, so then when we had just like a very giggly, happy, normal child who did, who was just, you know, normal, it, it sort of rocked like what expectations were. So I think holistically, very early we had to say there are a lot of different paths to this. So we removed like what right. Looks like. Does that make sense? Like we, there's no one right way to get through school. There's no what like you're. Let's find out where you're awesome. So that's the next thing we do is for both my husband and I think we make this a family practice is that when we see especially my son doing something that's just amazing that only his brain can do because he has, he has the same brain. He does. He started a sports blog and so he has a substack where he's writing all about and he is so fast and the things he notices about his favorite team and he's so prolific and I just like, you know, no, there's not a lot of 15 year olds who could do that and do that that quickly. And so we, we work to like find out where he's killing it to the point where yes, he's in basketball, but he is a little late to grow just like his dad. So he's now like an improv comedy and he has found. So all that spontaneity that ADHD has given him, like it is rewarded in improv. Right? Like you are supposed to be spontaneous.

[Skylight Calendar Advertiser]

Yes.

[Kim Halderness]

So we're, we just have had to really work.

[Dr. Becky]

But it.

[Kim Halderness]

But it's hard because we live in a community that worships basketball. We live in the Raleigh area. This is like, this is where you.

[Dr. Becky]

You know, so this is the Blue Devils, you know.

[Penn Halderness]

You know, we were getting along just fine. This was really good.

[Dr. Becky]

I've never pretended to be someone I'm not, so I'm not going to start today.

[Penn Halderness]

Same here. Same here.

[Kim Halderness]

But it is strange to like deprioritize basketball. I say this to people who live in New York or California. I'm like, you don't understand. The town shuts down when like call it. It is.

[Penn Halderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Halderness]

Yeah. So we've just had to set an example and say like, no, there's more than one way to do this. There's more than one way to do this. And internal systems. Like, we have a hamper at the bottom of the stairs where all the crap goes that I can't deal with because I cannot deal with the crap and that, you know, you look for your crap in one spot. And we have a pretty strict, like, we just have to be very strict about like cleaning things. Setting. We have a thousand alarms. We have a big, massive digital calendar on our countertop where every morning it's your first stop.

[Penn Halderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Halderness]

So just a lot of that.

[Penn Halderness]

Yeah. He has some nighttime preps that he does just to make sure that the morning isn't a total disaster when he wakes up. It's all like. It's all upstream solutions. Right. Things that cut the problem off before it arises.

[Dr. Becky]

100%. You know something I've shifted from where, you know, in some of these systems, kids with ADHD without. Like, a lot of kids need these things. Right. Like they, they need systems. We all need rhythms. And one of the things I used to have with my kid was a list that I made sure was their handwriting. And it said something like, things to do for tomorrow. Okay. But you know what a shift I made. And I swear it's changed the way my kids approach these habits at night to set themselves up. I will take care of my tomorrow self by. That's what the top of the list says. And it's become kind of like anything else in your family. Like this eye rolly. My mom is so cheesy. Like, so cringe. Like taking care of my tomorrow self.

[Penn Halderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Becky]

You know, and I'm like, fine, I'll take cringe any day if it sets you up for success. Like, give it. I don't care. But it's interesting, like, oh, like my oldest packs snacks for school before he has football, right. And so he is taking care of his tomorrow self. What a horrible thing to be rushed at the end. You know, Know, right before you leave, you're like, I don't have my snacks. And that little shift also makes me think about what you're saying. Like, can we do even these systems from a strength based not. I'm not going to remember this. So I have to do it the night before.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah.

[Kim Halderness]

Oh, I like that.

[Penn Halderness]

Tomorrow's. That's smart. Like, what I would do because I'm cheeky is, I would add, like, really fun ways I take care of myself, like eat some candy or, you know, play an hour of video games after my homework's done. Cause those are ways that I think we can take care of ourselves as well.

[Kim Halderness]

It's so funny. But I think this is gonna. We're gonna implement this in our house. Because my son, he's very funny. He is famous for saying, that's a problem for tomorrow's PC. Like, Pen Charles will do that. That's a problem for tomorrow. Pen Charles. Like, that's not my problem right now. So I like this language.

[Dr. Becky]

Yeah. Well, I use it too. Like, I don't know about you, but for coffee in the morning, sometimes I'm like, oh, do I set it up the night before? But when I shift to hold on, like, tomorrow, Becky is gonna be so, so grateful to right now Becky that she just gets to, like, have hot coffee. That's so nice to. I like, it's such a nice thing to do. And then I feel like I'm doing it from a different place, which affects my energy differently. The other thing I wanted to say, and I'm curious how to expand on this more with improv versus maybe other things that aren't as natural. ADHD or any framework in some ways, like, every kid has certain environments that are easier for them and harder for them. And I think one of the things you figured out with your son is, like, it's important for kids who have adhd, so much of the academic world is easier. For kids who are like your daughter, linear, naturally, maybe organized, their executive function comes a little more naturally. They learn it once, they extend to everywhere else, versus I kind of have to learn it in all the scenarios each time. But it's so interesting for me to think about parents like you saying, okay, if that's true, he's going to have to figure that out and we'll help him. And, like, it's really important to find an environment where he feels like this does come easily. To me, I'm like, good at this naturally, right?

[Penn Halderness]

Yeah, There. There are some stereotypical environments inside of environments that are, that are good ideas for ADHD for most ADHD kids and adults. Remember now, it's all different, right? There's ADHD gets along well with ocd, anxiety, autism, all that stuff. It's. So not every ADHD is the same. In fact, you could argue each one is different. Overwhelmingly, if you're in college or you're in a high school in a big class and you're an ADHD student, if you sit in the front, it makes a difference for. For the better most of the time. Sometimes there's. There's people who. The anxiety takes over. But, like, that's one of the things that I say to PC and that I said to myself when I was going through high school. So there, There are, like, there are. There are such specific, strong, like, places that will set you up for success if you have adhd. And a really great thing to do is for a parent to reach out to a teacher with this specific question when it comes to a day, right? Even if there's a really tough class, if you're an ADHD kid that's on medication, who gets really tired and zonked out by the time that school is over, is there a way that you can, you know, shift that class to the morning? There are a lot of ways to do it. I would say that four, for the most part, if you are a parent who asks a teacher a direct question like that, instead of, what do we do? The path to a solution is a lot easier.

[Kim Halderness]

I will also say to your question about finding community within community, we got a suggestion. We were doing all these book signings and everything, and a parent actually had the most brilliant idea that I loved because also something I didn't realize is that the self. The shame that the ADHDers will feel, that really does damage self confidence, especially teens. And so they, you know, this book, ADHD is awesome. So they have started their own sort of ADHD is awesome for their particular kid. And, like, when they see their kid doing something that they enjoy, that they love, that they have a lot of interest in, they kind of write about that and they post it in a family aware that the kids see it. I'm totally gonna steal that too, because I think throughout the day, a lot of ADHD kids hear over and over again how not awesome they are in the school. So I just think that when we find that thing that lights them up, like, we just have to follow it, even if I don't understand anything about improv comedy, I just like got on the Google machine and figured that out.

[Dr. Becky]

So.

[Kim Halderness]

So yeah, thinking about the parent who.

[Dr. Becky]

Has kids younger than yours, who's maybe going through an evaluation process or just got, you know, that ADHD label, what is something like you would tell them, what is something you'd want them to know?

[Penn Halderness]

The parent or the kid?

[Dr. Becky]

Let's start with the parent and then maybe the kid. Let's do both.

[Penn Halderness]

Yeah, don't be scared of this. In fact, opposite. This is going to take a lot of your fears away. Away your fears of the unknown. When you, when you approach this with your kid, make sure and know that all of the issues that your child may be having, what whether it's like the traditional kind of lack of focus, hyperactivity, behavioral issues, that same brain is capable of doing things that a neurotypical person cannot do. There are studies, we are more creative, we are more spontaneous. We come up with creative solutions to problems in an efficient way that others cannot. But we live in a world that was mostly made for a neurotypical human being. And so this is a, the understanding is a path to adapting and excelling.

[Dr. Becky]

Beautiful. What about to a kid, you're not alone.

[Penn Halderness]

You are not alone and there is nothing inherently wrong with you. You have a really cool brain. I think like if you'll let us try to explain some of it to you and you understand it, there's some work that you can do that can sometimes even be fun to make the most of this brain.

[Dr. Becky]

So let's use that as a bridge to your book. All you can be with adhd. What happened in your house between the two of you that like, let's do this. Was there a moment?

[Kim Halderness]

So we are. Our first book, ADHD is awesome. We tried to write it for the ADHD brain. So there's a lot of graphics and a lot of call outs and all that stuff. And we had the opportunity to go to a lot of book signings. You had to promote a book. So we went to all these book signings and there would be so many kids there and they had their highlighters and they had their post it notes and they were trying, God bless them to read it. But really it wasn't meant for an 8 year old to read. Right. It was meant for their parents to read read. So it came because they literally said like, you have to make a book for us. So it was just the biggest no brainer. And I would love to do, you know, a teen like A tween adaptation as well. But yeah, it was. It was just. It was so much fun. And it's so much. And a children's book. I still have all of my kids children's books. I love a book. I love that time. Yeah. So it was so much fun.

[Dr. Becky]

What page?

[Skylight Calendar Advertiser]

What line?

[Dr. Becky]

Was there something in it that, like, you each have a favorite part and you're like, oh, I just love that.

[Kim Halderness]

When we get there, there is, you know, you have it all memorized because you've read it out loud so many times. But there is. There's a moment where, you know, you have to acknowledge the hard stuff that comes with. With this. And so there's a moment where, you know, the. The narrator sort of calling out, yeah.

[Penn Halderness]

It can be normal. I've said to myself, oh, it can be tough. I've said to myself, why can't I be normal like everyone else? Sometimes we're forgetful. We interrupt friends. It makes us forgetful. And, you know, bits and pieces about how you can get sad and even frustrated and sometimes mad. And then right after that, there's a page that says, does this sound familiar? The examples I gave. If you answer, yes, you are so very brave. And that's my favorite.

[Kim Halderness]

And I have to say, when he read that out loud to. And they were all jumping like, does this sound like me? And they were jumping up and down like, there was pride, but there was like an acknowledgement of like, oh, my God, you. You know that. Like, you know that too. You know what that feels like. So seeing that read out loud and then just being able to tell them how brave they are for acknowledging it, like, my. My mom heart just, like, melted into pieces.

[Dr. Becky]

And that goes back to, like, the pain isn't the thing. It's feeling like nobody understands the thing, or you're alone in the. Like, you know, we can't change the hard, but we can change the alone. And I think in the book, you change the alone, right? And you. And obviously there's strengths too, but like anything, there's hard parts. And like, if we're afraid to name what's hard to our kids, they get really freaked out because they're like, oh, forget me feeling like this hard. I guess this is just bad because my parents only avoid what's bad and dangerous, right? Then it makes it feel worse.

[Penn Halderness]

And. And in the book, immediately after, there's sort of a reward, you know, it's not. We're not sitting in that suck for too long. It's okay. You admitted you did this now, let's hear about the awesome stuff. And we get. Right. And we. Then we include sharks and ninjas and other things that people with ADHD tend to like.

[Dr. Becky]

That's right. Just like you were saying, it's increasingly hard in this world to me to have, like, two things are true. Like, the answer to most things are that two things are true. It's hard and it's amazing. Right. This is easy. That's hard. And when you can kind of name both without making one more powerful or canceling of the other, like, I think it speaks to our body. Like, their bodies know that already. This is hard, and this is amazing. Like, oh, someone can finally name that to me. And I think your book really, really does that. So beautiful.

[Kim Halderness]

Thank you.

[Dr. Becky]

Yeah. All right, we're going to do a little rapid fire to end. You ready? Yeah, yeah. That's right, that's right, that's right. Have a sip of water. Okay, finish the sentence. ADHD has taught me.

[Kim Halderness]

ADHD has taught me patience.

[Dr. Becky]

Ooh, yeah, let's go with that. I've heard it's a virtue. I'm working on finding it, but if.

[Kim Halderness]

People say that I don't currently possess it. It's a muscle I'm trying to build.

[Dr. Becky]

Yeah, yeah, 100%. That's the best it gets. Something around ADHD, or deeply feeling ness that I've stopped apologizing for is.

[Penn Halderness]

Fidgeting. It's. It's. It's what your body needs. You burn calories a day. Like, you can try as hard as you want to, but it's the other option. For me, fidgeting is much worse. Like, I. I probably would blow a gasket. So, yeah, I've just stopped. It's just what. It's what I do.

[Dr. Becky]

Okay, now for Kim, the Vanessa version. Pentio Kim. An ADHD strength I see in my son is his creativity.

[Kim Halderness]

And his ability to make it comedy. He spots things in this world and makes them so funny, and I don't know another brain that could do that.

[Dr. Becky]

And pen. An ADHD strength that shows up in my parenting is.

[Penn Halderness]

I think, making things fun. I think it's important for things to be fun for especially younger children. And sometimes that's disguised in gamification and in taking a chore and making it more enjoyable. And I think that my ADHD creativity has helped with that.

[Dr. Becky]

Amazing. Okay, last one. The thing most people misunderstand about ADHD.

[Penn Halderness]

Is that it's just an executive functioning disorder and that it has nothing to do with your emotions. I think most Parents are not ready for that when they take their kid in.

[Kim Halderness]

I would also say most parents don't know. It has nothing to do with your academic ability.

[Penn Halderness]

Yeah.

[Kim Halderness]

It is separate from that. They are not. They're not behind or slow. They haven't. There's just a delay in how this is, like, how they're actually processing it.

[Penn Halderness]

You can get all A's and have adhd.

[Kim Halderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Becky]

You know, something just crystallized for me that. What you said, Pen. You just said that it's not just executive function. I get this question all the time. Your deeply feeling kid framework. I don't know if that's for me because my kid has ADHD or my kid's a deeply feeling kid. So does that mean they don't have adhd? And it's interesting. It's like, I think what you're saying is, like, these. They're overlapping. Right. And, like, both can be true. And often, maybe with the ADHD part, people are explained it in a way where the emotionality, the deeply feeling. This isn't always included. So it feels like an either or. But when you really think about a kid beyond any label, like, often those things kind of come together.

[Penn Halderness]

You said it better than I would.

[Kim Halderness]

Yeah.

[Dr. Becky]

Anything we didn't cover today? Anything. You're like, I just want parents listening to this to know whether it's about themselves or their kids. What else? What do we want to end on?

[Penn Halderness]

I mean, I guess just, like, celebrate those moments when your child is truly happy and feeling the flow. As someone with adhd, like, I know what my son's happy happiest moment ever was, and I like to bring it up all the time. It was the one time that Duke in North Carolina played in the Final Four, and it hasn't happened before. It'll never happen again. It was Coach K's last game, and Carolina beat Duke. And my son took his shirt off and waved it like a helicopter because of the Petey Pablo song. I'm sorry, have I hit a nerve?

[Dr. Becky]

Do you like to test? Is this like a testing, emotion regulation, live situation? Is that what you do to people? That's what you're known for. At the end, you're just like, let me see how much I can trigger you and how you react.

[Penn Halderness]

It was really an attempt to try to just wrap this up the way I really wanted it to. And Dr. Becky taking deep breaths in her chair really is because I love her. It's what I kind of. It's kind of what I wanted.

[Dr. Becky]

I mean, really. Well, this has been real.

[Kim Halderness]

I'm gonna never want to see you again.

[Dr. Becky]

I don't even know if I'm gonna air this episode. No, this is the best end, really. The way you bring together the truth, naming hard things, naming amazing things, deshaming, humor like that all can be part of one dance. And I just think it's a magical combination. And I love talking to you guys. I love knowing you and I really, really love this book and I know it's going to help so many families. So thank you.

[Penn Halderness]

Well, you've done a lot for us, a lot for me personally. And meeting you a couple of months ago was like meeting Cooper Flag. It was like meeting like a. I like that. I will take meeting a superstar that I was like nervous to talk to.

[Dr. Becky]

Oh, well, thank you. More soon. Thanks, guys.

[Kim Halderness]

Thank you.

[Dr. Becky]

I hope you got as much from that conversation as I did. I hope you realize that ADHD doesn't have to be thought of as a disorder. It can be a framework for understanding your kid, their strengths, their struggles, and you can go from there.

[Narrator/Host]

2.

[Dr. Becky]

Don't forget ADHD is often about relationship with emotions and emotionality. And so many of those kids are deeply feeling. In addition to the things we often hear about. Planning, executive function, attention. Let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground and a hand on your heart. And let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside.

[Narrator/Host]

I'll see you soon. Do you remember those first few weeks of parenthood? Beautiful, overwhelming, exhausting, confusing all at once. I remember all those feelings clustering together for me. And I know having support during that time made such a difference. That's why for five days this season, we're partnering with welcome Baby, a nonprofit that provides essential supplies to new parents in need. From December 18 through December 22, 10% of every new Good Inside membership will help fund welcome Baby packages filled with the basics a mother and newborn need for their first four weeks. So when you join Good Inside, you're getting the support you need and giving it to another parent who needs it, too. Learn [e-mail].