Dr. Becky (3:21)

I love that.

Leslie Odom Jr. (3:22)

Sure. I like that.

Nicolette Robinson (3:23)

Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. (3:24)

Yes. Oh. Nicolette comes from a family of performers, entertainers, entertainment type people. And I. I'm gonna talk about her like, she's not here. But, you know, the thing that actually attracted me most about Nicolette is that, you know, she is more talented than she'd even have to be. She's more gifted than she'd even have to be. You know, her parents did this wonderful job of raising a beautiful person. You know, it's not about if she was ugly inside, she'd be not as attractive outside. You know, the first few years that we were dating, I just kept waiting for the other shoe to drop. You know, like, when am I gonna see the other side of this person? And it's just who she is. She's just a good inside, you know, she's really just a good human being. Our parents did such a fantastic job, but she's also grown. We've been together 17 years now, so I've also seen her really grow from a young woman, you know, girlish, to this. To this boss, you know, she really does. Not only does she manage her career in such an intentional and thoughtful personal way, you know, the way she does her business is not the way that I do my business. I've grown to respect that. But she really manages our little family like a. Like a company, like a. You guys have a lot in common. You know, when I. When I met you on the street, I was like, my wife is going to freak out.

Dr. Becky (5:05)

That I think.

Leslie Odom Jr. (5:06)

Yeah, I think that you guys would have a lot in common. She. She.

Dr. Becky (5:09)

We. Vibe.

Nicolette Robinson (5:10)

Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. (5:10)

Yeah. She just. She. She gets things done so I could go on and on. But she's my favorite. She's my favorite actor. She's my favorite person to spend time with outside of our kids. And. Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson (5:28)

Aww.

Leslie Odom Jr. (5:29)

That's my girl.

Nicolette Robinson (5:30)

Hey, Saved. That's very.

Dr. Becky (5:31)

So really is. Aw.

Nicolette Robinson (5:33)

I secretly said that we should talk about each other just to make him talk about me.

Dr. Becky (5:37)

I mean, by the way, that's gonna be my new go to. Like, who doesn't wanna hear someone say nice things? About them.

Nicolette Robinson (5:42)

When do you ever really do that?

Dr. Becky (5:44)

Seriously? Thank you for the new interview structure. I love that.

Nicolette Robinson (5:47)

Well, yeah.

Dr. Becky (5:49)

Who's Leslie?

Nicolette Robinson (5:50)

Leslie is a Leo to the core.

Dr. Becky (5:57)

My third is a Leo, so let me just, you know how that is.

Nicolette Robinson (5:59)

I mean, vibrant. A host with a capital H loves to host a room, whether it's friends or, you know, people he's just met. I mean, you know, you guys went to go see his show, and afterwards, you're. You're hosting during the show, and then you're also hosting afterwards. And, you know, he takes a lot of pride in making people feel seen and feel welcome. And he's. What a lot of people don't know is that he's deeply sensitive and sweet and honestly, just watching him be a father is just seeing a whole side of him that, you know, the guy who's on stage who's just this dynamite explosion of talent, and seeing him as a dad is just, like, so special. And he's just so loving and so playful and silly and way more patient than I am, I think. And I think a big thing that I'll say just having been together for 17 years and really, you know, you go on this journey together and you see each other from the start. I was 20 when we started dating. He was 27 when we started dating. And that's, you know, going from that to whatever ages we are right now.

Leslie Odom Jr. (7:38)

We can't do math, right? You can't do math?

Nicolette Robinson (7:39)

No, don't do math.

Dr. Becky (7:40)

There's no math on this platform. Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson (7:45)

I've witnessed this man grow in a way that I don't even know if I could grow in the way that he has. I mean, I think that what's so special about you is he's so willing to dive in and do the work. You know, being a Leo, there's a stubbornness. I feel like there's a thing that, like, you are so intelligent and so good at what he does. So it's. He's not always wrong very often, or he doesn't think he's wrong very often. But when you can really get to him and convince him to understand, you know, your side or whatever it is that we're learning about, he is so willing to acknowledge when there is room to grow and to change. And he. Even just over the past year, I've seen him become a whole new person in the most beautiful way.

Dr. Becky (8:44)

Yeah. You know, when I think about, like, marriage and what we all take on in some ways, like, the best thing you can say or try to get to know about your partner is if they're open to change. Because however you are, when you meet, like, I always think when you get married to someone, you're kind of like, okay, this distance is what feels good to us, and each person's gonna grow. And so the only way for you to stay that close is if, like, both people are committed or you're both committed to not growing, which is really sad. Right. And being open and being willing to that process, knowing you're going to change and you know, you're willing to do that, I think is. Is something I'll tell my kids to, like, look out for in a partner.

Nicolette Robinson (9:23)

Yeah. And you decide as you go, you know, are we growing together? Are we growing in the same direction? Are we growing in a way that we want to continue this?

Dr. Becky (9:31)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay. I'm gonna come back to that and to parenting. But I actually wanna. I always like to start. Cause I feel like some of that starts earlier. So. As actors, performers, you know, what I think about so often is so many times the people who are successful in those crafts in adulthood, I don't know, like, they had a lot of creativity, they had a lot of energy. They weren't necessarily in the box, you know, the easiest kids. I don't know, what was it like? Yeah. What hits you about that? And where did your creativity, your art kind of. Where did that start?

Nicolette Robinson (10:06)

We're both very, very different kids growing up.

Dr. Becky (10:09)

Okay.

Nicolette Robinson (10:11)

And very different households as well. And so, I mean, for me, my mom was a choreographer growing up. And so I grew up sitting against the rehearsal mirrors just watching dance rehearsals of musicals and shows. And my dad was always at the piano, and my dad was directing and teaching acting classes. And so it was really around me in that way. And then my mom was my dance teacher in high school, so I really got into acting then. But I was the kind of kid that. I was a very well behaved kid. And I wouldn't say that this one, but I was the kid that would just be in her room, you know, sitting in front of the mirror, like, dreaming about pretending. Different acting films and scenes and super nerdy in that way. But I. I was just a lot more. What is. What's this word?

Dr. Becky (11:08)

Contained.

Nicolette Robinson (11:09)

Yeah, contained, probably, but still very vibrant and loved, you know, getting involved in extracurriculars and stuff. But I think this one can share a different experience.

Dr. Becky (11:18)

Slightly different story.

Nicolette Robinson (11:19)

Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. (11:19)

Yeah. I mean, I grew up in a house with a fair amount of trauma, and so I think I'd love to know what you think about this, but I kind of think that a kid is gonna express themselves somewhere. They're gonna come apart somewhere. And I wasn't allowed to come apart at home, so I came apart. You know, I tested the limits and did all that stuff outside the home. Our kids are the opposite. You know, our kids oftentimes in school and stuff, you know, people are meeting the best versions of our kids because they come apart at home, which I think is. We're trying that. Yeah, we're trying that. It feels. Yeah. I was much safer at school, to be honest.

Dr. Becky (12:00)

So.

Leslie Odom Jr. (12:01)

Yeah. And I think that I've been thinking quite a bit about myself as a child and what led to where I've arrived, because in so many ways, I've arrived at the life that I always dreamed about as a kid. And that's really only recently that I've really become aware of that. It's a really satisfying thing. And I think that, you know, I don't do. If you'll permit me to talk about myself for a second. I think that one of the things that might be interesting about me is sort of how alive my. My internal world can be. You know, when people watch me, there's a lot going on inside, and. And for the first time, it's. I'm. That's what it was as a kid. I had. So I had a whole world going on in here that I was not allowed to express. I had to keep it all inside. So I got really good at that. I got really. I mean, there were so many things that I wanted to say. There was so many feelings. You know what I mean? Like, there was so many. I wanted to lash out. I wanted to. But outside, it was, you know, whatever mask I was required to have in my house. And so, anyway, I've put it to good use, you know, these. I do think that, you know, when I'm at my best, if you're watching me, there can be something compelling about. I mean, that. That performer is always thinking, there's something happening in there. Right. And that's what my childhood was like.

Dr. Becky (13:40)

Yeah. So you really remember that, like, you. You. Your internal life was so alive.

Leslie Odom Jr. (13:46)

Yes. That was the only place I was alive.

Dr. Becky (13:49)

Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. (13:50)

I was waiting for my autonomy. I was waiting to be free so that I could live fully, so that I could live joyfully. We were so controlled. It was just such a stifling environment that I had. I lived fully inside, and I was waiting to get out of there so that I could live outside, too.

Dr. Becky (14:13)

So how did you then? I mean, there's so many avenues that could have come out in some maladaptive or some, at least that would have been ending up being harmful to you. And it seems like performing is, you know, is a healthy avenue for that. But how did you.

Nicolette Robinson (14:26)

That.

Dr. Becky (14:26)

How did you find it or did it. How did it find you?

Leslie Odom Jr. (14:28)

It's a miracle, you know, it's just like. I mean. Yeah, no, a childhood like that can just as easily kill you. Yeah, you know, that's the thing, you know, and sometimes it's. It can be a frustrating thing. It's such a wild thing to survive that and to have a person that was responsible for that kind of look at you and say, how bad could I have done? Look at you? That's really the response, you know, I couldn't have been too bad because look how successful you are. And it's, you know, it can leave you speechless because, you know, it negates all your hard work, all the work you've done to heal, all the work you've done to make choices, to make, to be different. Yeah, my life has been in response to that, in response to that unhealthiness, in response to. Right. But, yeah, it's a miracle. I mean, because it could just as easily have taken me down many, many horrible path.

Dr. Becky (15:41)

How do you deal with that now, that type of response? Or is your family still in your life?

Leslie Odom Jr. (15:47)

I have. I made the difficult decision to. To separate myself from somebody. And that's just really, just, you know, that that's really an act of love, too. It's an act of love for myself and an act of love for them because there was a real part of me that wanted to change them and I finally accepted them for who they are. They're never going to change, and they don't have to change for me. And so we.

Dr. Becky (16:19)

I really want to thank you for sharing that. I know there are so many people listening and I. I hear from so many people who I think are in very similar situations. And the, the truth is all we can do as a kid when we're in a situation that's overwhelming or scary, where our needs aren't getting met, we can't, we can't stop trying because the idea that, well, that's who they are, and I guess I can just change. You're like, well, you're five. Well, you're eight. Like, good luck surviving on your own. So it's a really adaptive thing for a kid to. In some ways, this idea of, like, take in the badness. Is the world bad? Are my Parents kind of bad. Am I bad? And they kind of think of those black and white terms. And as long as you take in the badness, you have agency. Okay, if only this or if only that. If I could do this, if I could do that, and to feel helpless. You know, there's this quote that I always come back to from Fairbairn that says, for kids, it's better to be a sinner in a world ruled by God than to live in a world ruled by the devil. And I think we can have a lot of compassion then, even as adults, when you're like, yeah, it is true. I am 20 now or I am 45 now and I could survive on my own. But I guess that idea of trying to change and trying to make it my fault and figuring out what I could do, I kind of get mad at myself now for doing that. But that came from a really crafty, really adaptive place for all the years that my brain was wiring and thought it was protecting me. And so when we think about it that way, we can have a lot of love and compassion for ourselves and separate a little. Okay, well, now it is. Now I'm an adult, right? And I can start to make different decisions. And so.

Leslie Odom Jr. (17:58)

And there was conditioning because it was, you know, when you are raised by one or two emotionally immature people or however many emotionally immature people are around you, you know, there is a part of the conditioning is, look what you made me do that I'm not in control of the way I act. You are.

Dr. Becky (18:25)

You made me.

Leslie Odom Jr. (18:26)

You made you. I don't want to be this guy.

Dr. Becky (18:30)

Look. What.

Leslie Odom Jr. (18:30)

You know what I mean. Yeah, I destroyed the house. I ripped it all up. But that's Right. And so like you said, you learn as a kid. Oh, you know, when the house is going to shit. Who did it? It's not that person's fault.

Dr. Becky (18:42)

No.

Leslie Odom Jr. (18:43)

Who set it off. Right.

Dr. Becky (18:46)

Yes.

Leslie Odom Jr. (18:46)

So, yeah, you are conditioned in that way that you are responsible for the weather. You are responsible.

Dr. Becky (18:54)

And again, think about how terrifying it is for anyone here, like, as a kid. Well, if there can be a really scary storm at any moment, and the only thing I can say to myself is, it's not my fault. I guess that just happens. But I. But I live here, okay? Like you. You can't really survive those two things at once. Like, I could be at the brunt of a horrible storm. Nothing I can do to decrease the likelihood. It's not really my fault. That. That. That actually isn't something a child could tolerate and continue day to day. So I guess I. Yeah, I made my dad. I made my mom act that way. Even if they don't even say it to me, which a lot of parents do, I'm gonna feel that way anyway. So then if they say it, it's just confirmation. Right. And it's such a different model of managing your emotions, which is some version of something happened. By the way, it might have involved my kid that brought up frustration, but my behavior around that, my reaction to that, how I manage the frustration, by the way, that is I always tell parents, that has nothing to do with your kid. That predated your kid's existence. Right. And I think that's such an act of cycle breaking for so many of us. Right. My kid not listening in the morning. Yeah, of course. That's frustrating. Do I yell because I'm frustrated with my kid? No, I yell because I can't manage my frustration. Right. Big difference.

Nicolette Robinson (20:19)

Huge. So think, like, I feel like cycle breaking is a huge thing right now for so many people. And I just think what he's done in this season, in this past year, setting boundaries for himself and recognizing the cycle that he can step out of and have boundaries that can protect him has changed his life. But also it's affected my life. Yes. Affected our kids. It's affected everybody that's around him. I mean. Yeah.

Dr. Becky (20:55)

And I want. Boundaries are my favorite topic, actually. There's so many things I'll lie about, and I'll say it's my favorite topic, but it always feels true. It's a good one to say that. Okay, boundaries really are. But they really are my number one. But I want to link it to what you just said and then just come back to your understanding of boundaries and how it plays out. Because if you think about the lesson we all so many kids learned. You made me do that. It's a boundaryless communication. There's no boundary between something I do and your terrifying reaction, whatever it is. So, so many of us grew up in households. We're like, well, whose feelings are whose. Who's responsible for what are completely commingled? There's no boundary there. If I'm responsible for, I'm making this up. But my dad, my mom, drinking a lot and hitting or yelling or ruining the house. Then, like, there's no boundary. People like, I don't even know what a boundary is. Right.

Nicolette Robinson (21:53)

Completely.

Dr. Becky (21:54)

So. So what are boundaries yet? Tell me more about that journey around boundaries. I have so many thoughts about boundaries, but I want to start with yours and what that's looked like Felt like.

Nicolette Robinson (22:02)

I think we're still learning. I mean, it's a constant, constant learning. But really, again, again, talking about this year.

Dr. Becky (22:14)

Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson (22:14)

And what we've sort of discovered about these boundaries with family and toxic energies in your life. It's. I think that I just had a completely new thought, you know, and like, mom brain, where you're just like. I do want to say that as we are, you know, growing and discovering this. This relationship with boundaries, I am most proud of the progress that we've made. When I see little moments with our kids, of them recognizing their. Not responsibility, necessarily, but maybe responsibility, but moments where I know if I took responsibility for my energy or my, you know, if I did yell or things that you talk about a lot. I read good inside the moments that I've recognized. You know, it's time for me to repair a moment and come back. I've seen them model that, and those are the moments that I really feel like, okay, we're making progress. They're hearing me. I'm doing a good job.

Dr. Becky (23:36)

Yes.

Nicolette Robinson (23:36)

And because I'm setting boundaries for myself and then coming back and recognizing I probably shouldn't have spoken to you like that. And I'm going to also give you space, because it looks like you. You've asked for some space, so I'm going to give you that. Or even asking for my own space in the moment.

Dr. Becky (23:55)

What does that sound like?

Nicolette Robinson (23:57)

So, you know, practicing. I'm still learning, but I'm really trying. I really come to him all the time. I'm like, okay, Dr. Becky said we can do this thing. We'll have our strategy meetings.

Dr. Becky (24:09)

Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson (24:10)

Our son is 4, so he has his. He's having, you know, super high emotions at times where he doesn't know what to do with his body, and it can turn really physical. And so I'm working on, you know, I'm going to. I'll try to stop him from hitting, if that's what it is. I'm not going to let you hit me right now. And I'll try to stay as calm as possible, but if I can't get it to stop, I'm just saying I'm gonna go. Take some space from me, because I don't like the way my body feels right now, and I don't like the way that you're. I don't like. I don't like to be hit or, you know, so I'm going to go out for a lip. And usually, I don't know, that response is like.

Dr. Becky (24:54)

But that's so beautiful. And I think there is this weird message we've gotten, especially recently in parenting, like, in some ways, like, all about the kid, like, this martyrdom. In some ways, martyrdom is another form of boundarylessness. Ooh. Think about it. I mean, it's like I always say that it is something I try to think about in the back of my head when I'm making decisions like that. Like, I know I need space or I need to do something for myself. My kid's upset about it. I don't want my kid to be like, my mom loved me so much. She ran herself into the ground. Like, I don't want that about. I don't want that story. I don't want that model for their partnership one day. I don't want that model for love means one partner always gets what they want while the other one's running themselves into the ground and becoming invisible and resentful. And that's when we become rageful and completely. Right. And so no. And. And stopping that cycle means setting boundaries earlier than we think. To say, like, I. I need space. Right? And, yeah, it doesn't feel good to a kid to say, you're crazy. No one can be around you like this. Like, all right. But that's very different. Someone's like, yeah. So that means I can't take space. No. There's many ways to take space, people. Okay, that's one. Another one is maybe even a half second before, hey, I'm feeling my body feeling hot and activated. I need a moment to myself. You're a good kid. I'm going to step out. I'll be back in a little bit. I love you. The space is taken both ways, but it's completely different.

Nicolette Robinson (26:22)

That's a good one to try to do it before it spirals out of the corner.

Dr. Becky (26:27)

The best way to do that, honestly, is to talk to your kids in calm moments and just say, do you know something I'm going to do from now on? You know what? Sometimes we're in your room and things get a little, you know, like a little hairy. Like, you know, let's call a spade a spade. One of the things I'm going to do is tell you earlier when I need a deep breath. And I want you to know in advance, that doesn't mean I'm leaving forever. It doesn't mean you did anything to me. We all have moments when we recognize we need something. And actually, you're going to start having moments like that, too, in your relationships, and that is such a powerful thing. So by almost Saying it, like over dinner. And by the way, just, I always, like, tell parents. He's not going to be like, that's profound. No, he's going to be like, can I have pretzels? But they hear it.

Nicolette Robinson (27:14)

They do.

Dr. Becky (27:15)

And also the next time you're like, in his room, it's weird when you've already said it in advance. It's almost like you've already heard yourself promise you're gonna do it and they've heard it. So then it's not as much like, don't leave me. It's like, oh, you're, you know, and you could call it, I'm gonna call it banana. So I'm gonna say to you, banana. Oh, Mom's doing her banana thing, whatever it is. And I do think it makes that boundary setting, it's never easy, but it makes it a little less than impossible, you know?

Nicolette Robinson (27:41)

That's great.

Dr. Becky (27:47)

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Leslie Odom Jr. (29:13)

It wasn't really a word in my vocabulary. I didn't really understand it. And. I mean, what are they? You know, when I think about it, you know, I just. Yeah, I just finally think I have a defined self. I know I know where I end and where other people begin. And so I just, I'm aware for the first time in my life that other people. Yeah. That. That's not a reflection on me. That's not about me. You know, I used to take this poor person, you know, totally not her fault, but as a result of all this childhood mess, you know, I. Like, if. Because I felt like I was working so hard to make her happy. Right. Like, you know, I'm working so hard, you know, and not. Not just to make her happy, but I want her to be happy.

Nicolette Robinson (30:19)

Me.

Leslie Odom Jr. (30:19)

That. That every. That anytime she's in a foul mood or, you know, that it's about me. You know, it's just weird. It's this weird thing, you know, when you're raised by this narcissism thing, you know, you can take on some of the traits that. Yeah. That everything somehow becomes about you. It's like, you know, so a boundary. What a. It's. It's just set me free so gloriously that not every. Not every mood is about me. Most of them are not about me. You know, I don't have to take them on that. When somebody says. When somebody says they need space, that doesn't have to be about you. And you can see that I can say that I'm allowed to say I need space and that I'm allowed to put myself on the list in that way. Because there's also the martyr thing. There's this weird thing that happens, or certainly was happening to me, is that you can't help but be resentful. There's a part of you that is tired that feels taken advantage of. There's a part of you that you're not listening to, and you're taking that out on people. They didn't even ask you to do that. They didn't ask you to treat yourself like garbage so that you could put them first. You know, and so then any problem that they have, you're flying off the handle because you haven't taken care of yourself, but nobody asked you to do. It's this weird thing. And so. Boundary. I've said it. I know where I end and where other people begin.

Dr. Becky (31:46)

Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson (31:48)

You know what's interesting about that is I feel like balance is such a weird. A tricky word because nothing's ever really fully balanced in our lives. I mean, you know, some version of it, I think, but I think having some version of balance where with a loved one, if it's. You know, if it's with my kids, I'm trying lately to do like 20 minutes, starting slow, 20 minutes of just actively putting my phone to the side so that I can have that one on one time with my kids so that they see it, you know, so that when I do need the space, I can, I have a little bit of that balance. And same with relationships, you know, with, with us, it's, you know, now that we've been doing that work and having some sort of self care.

Dr. Becky (32:33)

Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson (32:34)

When we do actually need that space, I've, I know I've been kind and loving to him because I've been in myself, you know, for, for me. I started Lexapro this summer and I, for years I've always had this up and down with depression and mostly started with anxiety. And I just, you know, you start to gaslight yourself and you think, I don't, I don't need to do it this way. I can just like, you know, go to therapy, do the health thing and exercise and all that. And this summer it really, Sara Bareilles really helped me because she was very vocal about it and she was just vocal about how life changing medication can be. And I, so I decided to try that myself and like the idea of having a little bit of help to just balance myself so that I can be in myself again, it was so emotional at the time and I, I started it and it's life changing. It's been life changing for me. I feel like I can be myself again and I can be resourced and able to, you know, have a little more balance in my life so that my kids, when I do take boundaries, when I do set boundaries, they don't think it's about them, you know. Yeah.

Dr. Becky (33:54)

First of all, thank you for sharing that. Is there, is there a specific moment, like anyone that comes to mind that you're like, I just feel like pre summer me might have done X or felt X about something and now I see it as, yeah.

Nicolette Robinson (34:06)

Oh yeah. I mean really, motherhood was, it was so challenging for me because I would have days where, and I talk about this with one of my best friends, she has two toddlers, two, you know, she's in the thick of it right now. And she was saying there are some days where I feel like I can count on one hand or I can count just a small amount of wins of where I'm like, I got this. And then most of the rest of the time you're just like trying to survive. And it really felt like that all the time for me. And there were mornings where I would wake up and I was so deep in it that I just like didn't want to get out of bed. And I, you know, I just felt like, why am I not. Why am I not doing a good job at this? And I, I think, you know, Les has been telling me, he's like, you do do a great job. But it was just internally what I was going through. I. I just could not. Any, Any little thing would just make me feel depleted. And like, this is so hard. And now if my kid has a meltdown, I don't feel like the whole day is ruined and like, I've just completely failed. And like, this is the hardest thing ever. I'm. I'm able to just let it wash off my back and know that we're doing the best that we possibly can and I can still have a great day. And it's. I really was not having that in the summer.

Dr. Becky (35:33)

You know, I recently thought that, like, some days and the toddler stage and there's so many hard stages, but the meltdowns and the whining and, you know, I think people are surprised to hear me say, like, sometimes the only. The only true difference you can have between a day is whether it feels impossible or hard. Like, hard is sometimes the best. It gets impossible. It sounds like some of your days and mornings were impossible.

Nicolette Robinson (35:56)

There were some impossible days.

Dr. Becky (35:57)

And that's so real when we feel that way. And it's so important to say there's various types of support I can seek, and all of them are a sign of strength, like, to seek any of them. And I think it's also just so important, like a parent. Like, I have three kids and like, truly the other day, like, one of my kids was screaming and they're so upset and I know they were sad they weren't invited to a slumber party. My other one is having a meltdown about not getting attention. And then my baby, I see them with like a Sharpie marker on my brand new wallpaper. Like, what do I do? And I'm like, I don't know. And they're like, what? And I was like, you. You think there's any human who's going to tell you something that's gonna fix it? You survive. You try not to make it too much worse. You take a deep breath and, and you give yourself something at the end of the night. And, and. And the reason I think that's so important is sometimes certain days, they don't get better than hard. Like a meltdown. Nobody's like, but you can get to a place where you're like, this stinks. Not my favorite part of the day. And it's also not coloring all my day or it doesn't color my whole identity of how I thought about myself as a mother. That gets real dark. And that's the thing that it's true. And I'm so glad you brought it up. That's the thing I tell parents, like, you don't have to feel that way. There's things that can help you just go to hard.

Nicolette Robinson (37:18)

Absolutely. And also, just like it also makes you more equipped to deal with it in a way that will help them get through it so much faster. True. You know, if I'm not spiraling with the tantrum and I can keep my calm and he repairs so beautifully at times, and it's surprising and beautiful and I'm able to feel more present and more joy when I see it, when I feel it. So, yeah. If that helps anybody.

Dr. Becky (37:53)

Oh, my goodness. That's going to help everybody, I hope.

Nicolette Robinson (37:55)

Yeah.

Dr. Becky (38:01)

You know, at good Inside, we talk a lot about what it means to feel connected to our kids, to our partners, to our friends, especially in those everyday moments that make us feel supported. That's actually why I love using Zelle. It's not just about sending money. It's about showing up for the people who matter most. Like when a friend buys pizza for the kids after soccer practice and you want to chip in. Or when your sister spots you for a birthday gift and you can pay her back right away. Zelle is an easy way to send and receive money directly between enrolled bank accounts. But more than that, it's about little moments when you say, I've got you. Look for it in your banking app and when it counts, send money with Zelle. Tell me about proudest moment recently for each of you in parenting. And also hardest, hardest moment or hardest thing? The hardest part of it. And it could just be a proud moment that felt like a really high bar. Sorry. Like, I'm just gonna bring that bar down.

Leslie Odom Jr. (39:01)

Proudest. I'll tell you, you're proudest. The video you sent yesterday.

Dr. Becky (39:04)

Ah.

Leslie Odom Jr. (39:05)

Of Abel waking up, you know, because they happen. They happen like that.

Nicolette Robinson (39:11)

Yeah. Yeah. We've been going through a really hard phase which has been like, on and off for the last, I don't know, month or two. But our son who. Who's still. He's just so sweet. He had been waking up in the mornings and. And with me especially, he just, like one thing would set him off and then the morning would be just really challenging. And he woke up the other morning and he looked out the window and he was. He was just went Straight to the window. And he was looking at the sunrise. It was a beautiful pink in the sky. And he's so, you know, observant and curious. And he was just looking at the sky and saying, look how beautiful it is, Mama. And then he was talking about the clouds and saying, I wish I could eat the clouds.

Leslie Odom Jr. (40:05)

Eat the clouds for breakfast.

Nicolette Robinson (40:06)

Oh, and eat the clouds for breakfast. They taste like marshmallows. And then he had had a fit, a tantrum the night before, and he's in a bit of a destructive phase. So he had been, like, throwing stuff, and he threw this vase that I really love, and it chipped some of it off. And he went and he grabbed the vase, and he said, I'm sorry for breaking this mama on his own. And he was like, but look, it's only a tiny piece. I think we can fix it. And he also said. Cause last night I said, I really loved that face. And he. So today. This morning. That morning, he woke up and was like, I love it, too. And it was just like, she sent.

Leslie Odom Jr. (40:44)

Me the video of it. It's very sweet.

Nicolette Robinson (40:46)

I grabbed the. Cause he was going on and on about the sky, and then I didn't know he was gonna go pick up the vase. Oh, my goodness. So it's moments like that where you're like, they are listening.

Dr. Becky (40:55)

They are.

Nicolette Robinson (40:56)

And he was able to, you know, in a moment of calm and beauty, and it was very sweet, and it felt. That was a definite proud moment.

Dr. Becky (41:08)

And look, I mean, the kids who notice everything. There are kids who notice more than other kids. Like, my middle is like this. Like, she sees things. She smells like she won't go in any New York City garage, but. And not. Cause by the way, none of them smell great. But she describes this smell that I don't smell at all. And I feel like in the past, people would say that kid, like, you're dramatic. I'm like, you are a super sensor. You smell things. You notice things, right? And you also then feel things more intensely. You do. I think so many of those kids do become performers. They become the comedians who notice all the little things that the rest of her are like, oh, yeah, it is like that. But we would have never put it together. And it's hard to be a kid who's so perceptive and kind of absorbent in the world, which results both to the things he struggles with and to these amazing moments of appreciating the beauty and, you know, the imagined taste of a cloud. Right?

Nicolette Robinson (42:09)

Totally. I know. So sweet.

Leslie Odom Jr. (42:12)

I was proud of Lucy this morning. You know, it's a small thing, but Abel, you know, he's four, so he was. He was missing it, but she wasn't taking the bait. I was very proud of her. She was. She was being a very good big sister. She was trying. She really was trying to be the bigger person. She was. You know, she was trying to connect with him. She was trying to watch the thing he wanted to watch, and he was missing it, but she was. And it was frustrating her a little bit, but she wasn't taking the best. She didn't go where he went.

Dr. Becky (42:46)

Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. (42:47)

You know, and so I was proud of her.

Dr. Becky (42:50)

It sounds like she's some boundaries. Like, whoa, you're doing something there. And I'm not going to fully.

Nicolette Robinson (42:54)

She is learning the boundaries.

Dr. Becky (42:56)

Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. (42:56)

It's good. We have to. We have to. Like, we. We've had a few conversations with her about that, and this morning, anyway, she was able to remember.

Dr. Becky (43:05)

Yeah. You know something? I always think about those moments, and I haven't thought about it between siblings. I haven't even said this to my own kids. But I think about it whenever my kid is like. Like asking me to join in something that I know is gonna be unproductive. You know, kind of. It's like. It's like inviting someone to, like, a horrible party. It's like, do you want to come to a party where we're both gonna end up yelling? We're both gonna probably cry. It's gonna be power struggles. And you know what I'd say? I'd be like, no, absolutely not. That sounds like a horrible party. You know, and our kids keep inviting us, but if we think about it that way, with a little humor, like, they can keep inviting us. We know the kind of parties we enjoy. And it. And I even think for kids, like, there's like, look, your brother's gonna invite you to things. Some are gonna be awesome things, some are gonna be not as awesome. And we saw you say no to the kind of party that's one of the ones that wasn't gonna be fun for either of you. That was so cool. You could tell the difference. Cause isn't that such a life skill?

Leslie Odom Jr. (44:01)

That's great.

Nicolette Robinson (44:01)

I love that. I think they'll get a kick out of that, too. They'll think it's funny. It's like, I'm not going to that party.

Dr. Becky (44:08)

Exactly. You gotta add a little humor to these moments. Okay, what about the hardest. The hardest thing about parenting for each of you?

Leslie Odom Jr. (44:14)

I mean, balance is hard, especially right now. You know, there's just. And in the, in the grand scheme of things, my life is balanced because, you know, I. I've learned to work with a certain amount of unemployment, a certain amount of free time. I'm never not doing anything. But, you know, there's times when my time is not accounted for for anybody except for myself. So in those times, I'm up with the kids and I'm, you know, you sleep in, babe. I welcome. And, you know, I'm cooking dinner and, you know, there's those. So I have. I can have that for months and months. And then I have a time where, you know, I'm exhausted in the morning because I have a night job.

Dr. Becky (45:04)

Right.

Leslie Odom Jr. (45:04)

And I, you know, I'm exhausted in the morning and, you know, they're gone during the day and I'm leaving right when they're getting home. So that can, you know, that's hard for me in this season, remembering that. It's not always like this, you know, that's. That's tough for me right now.

Nicolette Robinson (45:24)

Yeah, I laughed because this morning he woke up.

Leslie Odom Jr. (45:31)

So funny.

Nicolette Robinson (45:32)

At 7:30, I wake up. It was 7:15 or something. I wake up at 6:20, because I try to wake up like 10 minutes.

Leslie Odom Jr. (45:39)

Before the kitchen, which I did like two days ago.

Nicolette Robinson (45:41)

Yeah. This is no judgment, I know, but.

Leslie Odom Jr. (45:44)

Two days ago I let you sleep in. Right. So I felt like that. It felt like another one of those mornings.

Nicolette Robinson (45:49)

This morning he woke up, came into the kitchen. We'd been up for a long time, and he was like, I really thought I was waking up. I was gonna wake up and just let you sleep in for the morning and have your.

Leslie Odom Jr. (46:01)

I thought for sure. Oh, for sure. It's, you know, this is. It must be like 5:30. Let me let Nick sleep in. They've been up for hours, but I knew what time it was.

Nicolette Robinson (46:12)

But yeah, I. I think the hardest, one of the hardest things for me and, you know, moms, it's an interesting relationship with kids, and I'm sure depending on your household, whatever the parent is that it serves, the role that I serve, it's an interesting role to take on because there's a lot. You sort of hold everybody's pain and their joy in there. You hold a lot of it. We carry so much in the day. And so, yeah, finding that, that space for myself, finding the self care, the balance of that and really, yeah, I think anxiety has been a huge journey for me through motherhood. It really just got exponentially bigger when I had kids. And so I think, honestly, this journey of taking medication or the anxiety has really helped to show that maybe it won't be my biggest challenge. I mean, there's always anxiety and things, but, you know, in our relationship, you know, Les has traveled way more. You know, we both travel for work and stuff, but for so much of our relationship, he's been out of town and this and that. And so I've, you know, being at the house with the kids on my.

Dr. Becky (47:41)

Own.

Nicolette Robinson (47:43)

There'S an anxiety that has come with that of, you know, if they're sick at night and I'm here by myself or whatever it is. But yeah, I think I'm in discovering the self care balance, which includes, you know, that, that kind of health medication or whatever, whatever your journey is, it's getting easier.

Dr. Becky (48:09)

So before I move to my rapid fire questions, at the end, I just like, what, what was it like for the two of you for like Hamilton's meteoric rise? That was pre. Kids. Okay, what. What was that like?

Nicolette Robinson (48:25)

Crazy.

Leslie Odom Jr. (48:30)

It was tough for Nick because we were, for the first time, for the very first time, we were in rooms where people were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But him or whatever, you know.

Dr. Becky (48:44)

Yep.

Leslie Odom Jr. (48:45)

And it was tough for me because obviously, you know, I had to. I certainly felt like I had to take advantage of every single opportunity and everything. You know, I didn't really have the tools or the time make the time to check on her, you know, really, in that way. So I think it was, it was tough for Nick during that climb, during that rise. Things leveled out, you know, over time and we've gone back and done repair and. Yeah, going back in, you know, talking about how we wanted to do it this time and we've. Yeah, we. We've had the years to sort of. What was that? You know, and, and we don't want that to happen again. You know, how do I make sure that I don't let go of your hand in this room? You know, how do we make sure that we don't let somebody, you know, pull me away from you, if you know what I mean, if I don't. Yeah. So that it was like wonderful and strange.

Nicolette Robinson (49:57)

Yeah, it was all the things. I mean, it was also so beautiful and so magical and some of the rooms that we were invited into were insane. And just getting to watch him for the first time in real time, watch people recognize how incredible he is, was incredibly emotional. Incredibly. A singular experience for sure. And we, we are so keenly aware of how. What a rare moment that was and how lucky we are and how Lucky we were to be able to go through that and to. But now, you know, like he said, I think having grown, having had some age and some life and some. And learned more about ourselves, we're entering this second time with so much more healing and so much more awareness of what we want to invite in. And so it's been really beautiful to do it a second time.

Dr. Becky (51:07)

Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson (51:07)

Yeah. And with our kids, which is cool.

Leslie Odom Jr. (51:10)

The kids. Yeah. They weren't even here the first time.

Nicolette Robinson (51:13)

I know.

Leslie Odom Jr. (51:14)

You know, I had this thought, but when I was going back in, you know, for the 10 year anniversary, 10 year old thinking a lot about this 10-10-10. And this was wild. So I remembered, okay, so 10 years ago, my daughter wasn't here. I remember that. That doesn't feel like it's that terribly long ago. And this same amount of time, in theory, she'll be waving goodbye on the way to college, like in this same amount. That's how fast it is.

Dr. Becky (51:41)

Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. (51:42)

She wasn't here. She's here and then she's gonna be gone.

Dr. Becky (51:46)

What?

Nicolette Robinson (51:47)

Let's not talk about gone. Okay, let's still. She did ask me the other day if she could live with us when she's.

Dr. Becky (51:53)

Some children can't do that.

Nicolette Robinson (51:54)

She's like, can I still?

Leslie Odom Jr. (51:55)

She can. My baby girl can. And my baby boy.

Dr. Becky (51:58)

Yeah. Okay, you guys ready for a rapid fire? Let's go. I'm gonna go. Nicolette and Leslie, ready? First role you ever played.

Nicolette Robinson (52:16)

Soccer girl on Party of Five.

Dr. Becky (52:18)

TV show.

Nicolette Robinson (52:19)

It was a little.

Dr. Becky (52:20)

Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. (52:21)

Martin Luther King in nursery school for the Black history pageant.

Dr. Becky (52:28)

One word to describe the feeling of performing.

Nicolette Robinson (52:31)

Oh, God. You said rapid fire. I'm so bad at fast things.

Leslie Odom Jr. (52:35)

Transcendent.

Nicolette Robinson (52:36)

Ooh, emotional.

Dr. Becky (52:40)

Favorite show or movie you've seen recently?

Leslie Odom Jr. (52:45)

Sinners.

Nicolette Robinson (52:46)

Sinners. Yeah, can I copy?

Dr. Becky (52:48)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nicolette Robinson (52:49)

I love it.

Dr. Becky (52:50)

Can join?

Nicolette Robinson (52:51)

Yeah, I saw it twice. I can join. Yeah.

Dr. Becky (52:53)

A parenting moment that knocked you off your chair. Funny, Ridiculous. Offensive. Just. Oh, my goodness. Did that just happen?

Leslie Odom Jr. (53:02)

I remember. This is one of my favorite stories. I remember Lucy was. She was like two, and we had this very sweet housekeeper a couple times a week in LA that we loved. And she was like the most important person in the house. I used to tell like, yo, I love all y', all, but like, Maria is number one in this house and Lucy was two, you know, so she was one of the. She was like, I don't like you. Her name was Maria. And this one day she said, I don't like you, Marie. I don't like you. Ria. And when I tell you more about you, we will put you right out of this house. You do not. You do not disrespect Maria. And so, yeah, so we dragged her in her room. You know, how dare she, Right? And then she comes back out. You know, I don't like Rhea. Whatever, you know, she kept saying it. It was so.

Nicolette Robinson (53:53)

Just for the reaction at that point.

Leslie Odom Jr. (53:55)

So embarrassing. And anyway, we, like, you know, this before we knew about the genius of you. We took a breath, we just reset the energy, and, you know, let's make some breakfast. Let's, you know, and we let it go. We start focusing on it, and then a few minutes later, I never. To this day, I have a harder time with this than my kid. But she came on her own at 2 something years old. She went, I do like you, Ria. I'm sorry for saying I don't like you. You know that she came to that on her own, knocked me off my chair. What it said to me, as somebody who grew up in a house where there was no repair ever, that there's something she's seeing, there's something that she's modeling, where she's not too proud to admit when she's wrong. Yes, she's gonna make mistakes, but if she can come back and she can repair, she's gonna be all right.

Dr. Becky (54:53)

And you know, what you did, which I think is so beautiful. And so you obviously have this in you. We all do. Like, doing nothing, trusting and giving time. I just think those three together are, like, the most underutilized strategy. Like, maybe I don't have to do anything in reaction. Maybe I could wait. Maybe I can trust. And, like, she proved that out. I can't even tell you how many times that my kids. I'm like, I know you're lying about this. And I feel the need, based on all the old stuff, to be, like, going to my face, whatever it is. What if I just wait? What if I wait? I mean.

Nicolette Robinson (55:35)

Exactly.

Dr. Becky (55:36)

You know, something about waiting. Right? So. But really. And it's. It's amazing. Like, I can always. If I really want to go yell at my kid later, I can do that. Full permission. Becky, I'm the adult. I can go yell later if I really feel the urge to scream at my child's face, you know, But. But it usually. It's usually not the first thing on my mind after a while. And sometimes before that, my kid's already done the thing that have yelled at them for not doing. And we all know when you're yelled at. You know, and you made feel like you're a bad kid. You think you're going to do the thing, then. No, now. Now you feel stuck and shame and, you know, so that. That's amazing. Last question. Your kids are older and someone just says, like, what was your mom like? Or someone says, like, what. What is your dad like? And they start the sentence like, oh, my mom or oh, my dad. And they say one thing. What do you hope they say?

Nicolette Robinson (56:26)

I hope they say my mom loves me more than anybody in this world. And my mom is sweet and kind and strong, and she's also taught me to do things that I love for myself, too.

Leslie Odom Jr. (56:50)

Hope they say my dad married well. Hope they say you said enough nauseatingly.

Nicolette Robinson (56:59)

Nice things to me.

Dr. Becky (57:01)

You know.

Leslie Odom Jr. (57:05)

I really hope that they say, like, you know, my dad's a. My dad might be the kindest guy I know. My dad's. My dad's a kind guy.

Dr. Becky (57:15)

Thank you both. This was. This was incredible. And I really have to say, the way that you. The way that you share, like, your stories and put things together in this coherent way, like, I just know that that takes, like, a lot of work to get there, to talk about things that were painful, to talk about. Lessons learned. It's amazing to be in your presence, and I feel grateful to be let in. So thank you.

Nicolette Robinson (57:42)

We do, too. You've been very present in our household and really helped us through a lot of really hard moments. More than you know.

Leslie Odom Jr. (57:49)

We're leading a generation of parents who appreciate you.

Dr. Becky (57:52)

Thank you for your work, and we'll.

Nicolette Robinson (57:54)

Keep texting and asking questions all day.

Dr. Becky (57:56)

Please do. Yeah, I am finding it really hard to do any recap of this conversation because every moment felt so important. I'll tell you the things that are loudest on my mind. Number one, the power of repair. When we repair with our kids, we are cycle breakers. And we also then will see them repair with others. That's incredible. Two boundaries. Boundaries show us where we end and someone else begins. Of course, they're important. And three, I love this idea of leaving a legacy of kindness so powerful. Let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground and the hand on your heart. And let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon. Do you ever have your kid take a perfectly nice moment and turn it into a complaint? Or you watch your kid get a gift and they say something totally cringey like, I have it already, or some version of Ugh it's not as big or as fancy as I would have wanted. And then you think, is my kid entitled? Am I raising an asshole? Look, you're not alone. We've all had this fear, and so many of us feel really passionately about not raising entitled kids. But if we check in with ourselves, we're not sure about the roadmap or signs that we're actually moving in the direction we want. This is why I'm hosting a live Q and A called how not to Raise an Asshole. We'll unpack what entitlement is, where it shows up, why kids act ungrateful, and exactly how to build empathy and appreciation that lasts longer than this holiday season. It's happening on December 1st, 11:30am Eastern, and it's free for all good Inside members not yet a member. Sign up and save your spot@goodinside.com.