A (2:48)

Hi, Corrine.

C (2:50)

Hi. I am so happy to be here.

A (2:52)

I am so excited for you to be here about a topic. Like, I just have to say, when I saw the title of your book, I'm just gonna say it. Having it all. What Data tells us about women's lives and getting the most out of yours. I saw Having it all, and I was like, this woman is gonna tell me how to have it all. Amazing. Someone has finally cracked the code, and there's data involved, so I feel like that's not exactly what's inside. So tell us a little bit about. About the book, but really about that phrase, having it all. How so many women, so many moms want to have it all. Does that just mean you're doing it all? I don't know.

D (3:31)

Yeah. And that's.

C (3:32)

I think, like, the COVID of the book is so important to tell that story because we really wanted to show.

D (3:37)

That we were being a little tongue.

C (3:38)

In cheek with that phrase, having it All. Because it's like, having it all and there's all this stuff, but also dinner is on fire, and your heel is broken and your coffee is spilled and your baby is crying, by the way. So we were like, you know, it's that having it all moment. For me, it's been when I've been pumping in planes, trains, and automobiles on book tour, and then I didn't seal.

D (3:57)

One of my breast milk bags, and it leaked in my backpack, and now.

C (4:00)

My laptop doesn't work. The screen is blacked out. So that's the, like, having it all.

A (4:05)

Right.

C (4:05)

Because it is.

D (4:06)

It's a lot. It's all too much. And it's actually harder than ever right now for a lot of reasons that I actually didn't know until I started looking at the data. And I really wanted to share that with people.

A (4:20)

So there's two different things. I want to say one thing, but then maybe go in a different direction. That one image of Corrine, who just had a baby, who's a Wharton professor, who wrote this amazing book with all these accolades on book tour, like, headline picture on Instagram. To someone who sees that is this woman has cracked the code. She has it all. And what's just so interesting is the micro moment underneath. I'm pumping. I spill the milk onto my computer. I can't even get through, you know, this moment, and everything is kind of cracking underneath, and there's such a big delta there.

D (5:01)

Yeah.

A (5:02)

So I just wanna say thank you for naming that. I think sometimes people say to me, oh, my goodness, your career and you're on book tour. And. Yeah, like, there's a fire somewhere or there's a very neglected of my life. Whenever I'm traveling for work, which I love. Like, I come back, my friends are like, hello. Like, you have not been around. And I'm like, you're right, I haven't been around. And maybe I even miss one of their birthday dinners or, you know, I have to spend extra time with my kids. And then that's not the same thing as spending time with your partner. I mean, it's just, it's so much. So you are coming at this from the perspective of an economist. So tell me a little bit about that.

D (5:40)

So I study these issues because economics, I know people hear economics and they're like, is it finance?

B (5:45)

Is it.

D (5:45)

Are you going to be stock tips? I'm like, I absolutely am not. I study the economics of being a woman. And economics, at its core, it's the science of maximizing subject to constraints. And if there's anybody who knows about maximizing subject to constraints, it's moms, right?

A (6:01)

Yes.

D (6:02)

And so part of what the book tries to look at is to say, look, when you're trying to feel like you're having it all or trying to, you know, jam all of these things into your life, you've got to figure out, what are you actually maximizing? Like, what is your goal here?

A (6:19)

Yep.

D (6:19)

Because as you said, we could pursue anything because there's always somebody who looks like they're having it all at any given moment. And we tend to just see that image. We see the person with a successful career and we're like, wait, why don't I have that? We see the person whose house is like, neat and tidy and well decorated. We see the person who always cooks the most delicious, healthy meals. We see the person who, you know, whose kids are always, like, well dressed.

C (6:46)

And on time every single day. And, you know, everybody is smiling, right.

D (6:50)

And we just are trying to, like, take all of those and fit them all into a basket that's not big enough. And that is our time.

A (7:00)

So interesting. You know, one of the things that my husband has said to me that's not the most helpful way my brain works is I'll see people with certain things in their life and I'll be like, I want that. And he's like, you have this thing where you imagine all the good things in your life transfer over and then you add that other thing, like everything is additive. And I'm just, I feel like that's kind of along the lines of what you're saying.

D (7:28)

No, that's exactly right. Because there's trade offs. That's why we talk about constraints. There are trade offs, and especially with time. And so I'll just get into the data really quickly. That the reason our time doesn't feel like it's adding up is because for women who have careers, those careers are more demanding than ever. Right. More and more workers are working greater than 50 hour weeks, 60 hour weeks, right. But men have not changed their roles at home. So as women have stepped into the labor force, the men's time at home has actually stayed relatively constant. And I wanna talk about that, cause I know dads are listening too.

C (8:03)

And I really wanna talk about this. Cause no one ever asks men about having it all.

D (8:07)

But a lot of people don't know that men do the same amount of housework as they did in the 1970s. The same hours of housework, meaning laundry, making sure the dishwasher's starting, cleaning, home management.

A (8:20)

Does that mean childcare?

D (8:21)

Putting your kids to bed doesn't mean childcare.

A (8:23)

Okay, so, so then the third fact.

D (8:24)

Of why all of this stuff isn't fitting in our time, is it the kids? Is that it's the kids fault time.

C (8:30)

It's not their fault, but it's that time with our kids skyrocketed starting in the 1990s.

D (8:37)

So moms today spend twice as much time with our children as moms a generation ago.

A (8:44)

And I'm trying to add up all the hours that you just. The work is more, the help is.

D (8:49)

More, that's why we're sleeping less and we have less leisure time. So. And then the thing is with dads, by the way, dads are like, well, we're spending more time too, right? And they are actually, that's the. So housework hasn't changed, dad's time in childcare has increased because we all spend so much more time with our kids. And I'll get into some of the reasons why. But because women's time has increased more, the gender gap in the households has actually gotten larger, not smaller.

A (9:15)

Interesting.

D (9:16)

So if you go Back to the 1970s, there was a smaller gender gap in childcare compared to than there is today. Even though dads are doing more, but moms are doing so much more more.

A (9:25)

So I just wanna digest that because look, I think the dads who are listening, this is not about, it's all your fault. And of course there's differences. Like you might be listening, thinking, that's not me. And you're right, but we're talking about these general patterns. So it's so helpful not to personalize about that. These are just general patterns, not any specific family. If you're a woman who works outside the home, work is demanding more of your time. I Think a lot of that is also the slack never stops, the emails never stop. Right. Things like that. So that time up, the average then woman who's married to a man doesn't have more help with the laundry or the household tasks. And we're spending twice as much time with our children.

D (10:06)

Yeah.

A (10:07)

And so this whole idea of having it all, all I'm thinking about is I don't even know how we get to 24 hours in a day. It sounds like a 30 hour day.

D (10:19)

Yet what it all is has changed. And that's why people who are listening are like, oh, I thought it was just me. And I thought it was just me. Like I write this from a place of like it was me.

A (10:30)

Search.

D (10:30)

Right.

C (10:31)

The research I did in this book.

D (10:32)

It was trying to understand my life because I was exhausted all of the time and I felt like I was falling behind my male colleagues at work and I didn't feel like I had the space or time to be the type of mom I wanted to be. And I was like, what is wrong with me? Right. And then when I looked at the data, I was like, oh, well, my male colleagues at work aren't facing quite the same time constraint because they've got one of me at home kind of managing the invisible labor. Right. And kind of keeping the household running. And in terms of the parenting, the type of parent I wanted to be was a type of parent that is much more intensively time available to my child than my own mom or my own childhood.

B (11:14)

Right.

D (11:15)

Every parent listening knows the bedtime routine. I love bedtime. I've come to love it.

C (11:21)

The processing highs and lows. You're reading stories. My older son is 8 and so.

D (11:26)

I can feel it slipping away. And that's why I used to resent it. Like, oh God, I still have to.

C (11:31)

Lie here, he won't let me leave kind of thing.

D (11:33)

And now I'm like, the fact that.

C (11:34)

He wants to cuddle and tell me his story, I'm holding onto it.

D (11:39)

But when I grew up in the 1980s, my bedtime routine was go to bed. What we do with our kids has literally changed that. Parents in the 80s were not holding their babies, they were not doing extended breastfeeding and pumping.

C (11:54)

When they go back to work, they.

D (11:56)

Were not sitting on the floor doing.

C (11:58)

Enriching activities with their toddlers, they were.

D (12:00)

Not sitting at the kitchen table doing homework with their grade schoolers and they weren't driving to travel, soccer on weekends.

A (12:04)

And by the way, to the four practices during the week. Like literally four practices. Two Tournamen and one extra game on Sunday. I'm thinking about all this and I'm just thinking about how many people listening. Really, there is a deep breath of I'm not the only one. This is very real and I'm not failing. This isn't my fault. It's not like I'm someone who doesn't have my stuff together. I am trying to fit into a 24 hour day. Things that are truly more than 24 hours. The math doesn't math. We can't change the number of hours in a day. Right. And so I'm curious in your research then, what's the alternative?

D (12:47)

So that's where we go back to what we started with, which is really figuring out what you're maximizing what your goal is, what's most important to you, and then making some hard choices about how to invest your time. The same way we're careful about investing money, facing this kind of impossible constellation of time constraints, we have to make choices. We have to say no. We have to be strategic in investing our time and enlist our partners to get more support. And so the book has a bunch of strategies for how not just women, but kind of all parents can do this. How we can kind of get back some of our time and get rid of some of the guilt that sometimes comes along with that.

B (13:36)

Winter nights with little kids feel endless, don't they? You finally get them down only to hear the shuffle of tiny feet at your door and cries from the other room, the dry air, stuffed noses, middle of the night coughs. It's just a recipe for restless sleep for them and for you. What I wish I had when my kids were younger, a Dreo Baby humidifier. Not only is it a top of the line humidifier, filling your child's room with a soft, whisper quiet mist that improves air quality and eases congestion. It's also the only humidifier with a science backed sleep training feature. That's right, the light gently dims at bedtime and brightens in the morning, helping your child develop a healthy natural sleep cycle. And with a smart app and voice control, it makes your routine easier too. Because the last thing sleep deprived parents need is another complicated gadget. If you're looking for calmer nights and brighter mornings, check out the Dreo baby humidifier@dreo.com that's D R E O.com and use my code Becky20 for 20% off.

A (14:45)

So let's keep going on that because you know, I actually used to be someone and what I used to say Is I hate trade offs, right? And I kind of would say I hate trade offs, you know, Cause I want to have it all. And then someone said something to me about how they describe trade offs. That really stuck with me. And I think I'm thinking about it now because I think it's really in line with what you're talking about. They said, I love trade offs. And I was like, what?

D (15:09)

Why?

A (15:10)

And they were like, trade offs clarify what my values are. And it's always really helpful to know what my values are. And I thought about trade offs that way. It gave me like a new. A new perspective.

D (15:24)

Bingo. Well, I think your friend was thinking.

C (15:27)

Like an economist, because that's exactly right.

D (15:30)

We think about what you're maximizing as something called your utility function. Okay, so I'm gonna go into.

A (15:36)

You're gonna be the class. I'm in your Wharton class right now.

D (15:38)

I love it.

C (15:38)

Exactly. You're in my intro MBA class.

D (15:42)

So what is a utility function? It's like your individual profit function. Because when we think about firms, they're maximizing profit, and they're maximizing profit subject to the constraints of how much they have to pay people, how much their inputs cost, who's going to buy their stuff, right? Well, individuals are maximizing utility. But the difference between utility and profit is that any accountant could look at a firm's profit and agree about the same. Say, like, look, this is how much profit they made. But nobody could actually say how much utility you're getting from something because nobody from the outside knows what your values are. It's individual. It's personal. Utility is the sum total of the joy, fulfillment, meaning, and contentment that you can fit into a lifetime. And the sources of those things and how much weight you place on each of them is only known to you.

A (16:35)

So, so beautiful. What you're saying and what it makes me think about is something I hear from people all the time, especially women. I think there's a lot of reasons for this, but I don't actually really know what I want. I don't really know what I value. And I think this is so core to so much of what we're really talking about. It's almost easier to be like, well, that person works this job and seems to like that, so maybe that's what I want. Wait, this person spends these days with her kids at soccer, and actually, maybe that's what I want. And sometimes we have to try things on to know. I love that. But at the core, there is no barometer. There is no blood Test for. You are making decisions that are in line with your values. Good job. It's something that we have to kind of practice figuring out and getting to the core of ourself.

D (17:27)

I think you're so right. And I think another thing that we tend to do is just mistake what other people want and caring for them and helping them get what they want for what we want. And that can be part of how we end up so exhausted, because it's. If we don't know what we value, it's just like, what makes my kids happy, what makes my friends happy, what makes my boss happy? And we just run ourselves ragged chasing their utility functions. Ooh.

A (17:52)

And then we get rageful and resentful.

D (17:55)

Yes. Yes.

C (17:55)

And sick.

D (17:56)

Yes.

A (17:56)

And sick.

D (17:57)

Absolutely. So here is the exercise I'm gonna tell you. And it feels a little wistful to do it, but it's worth it. Okay? The exercise is really. Close your eyes and picture. What would your life look like if you were a mega billionaire, you were independently wealthy, money were no object. Okay, so what would your life look like? How would you spend your time? What would your house look like? What would your days feel like? Okay. What would your relationships feel like? That's what you value. That's unconstrained maximization. All of that stuff that you pictured is what you are maximizing, subject to the constraints, the reality. And the reality is, okay, if some of the things you pictured are things that you buy with money, well, that's why you have a job, because your job turns your time into money.

A (18:47)

Right?

D (18:48)

But when I tell people to picture that, a lot of the women who will say, oh, I love my job. It's so important to me. It's so fulfilling in that picture where they are unconstrained, they might be doing that job for like, 10 hours a week or 15 hours a week, but they're not doing it for 60 hours a week. They're not doing it for 70 hours a week. Right. A lot of times what people picture is time with their loved ones. Right? Time with their kids, time to be fully present, time with their friends and their partner. And if we put all of our time into the money machine, into our careers, it takes away from the time we can spend on those other things. So if you can get in touch with, okay, this is what I value. This is what I'm pursuing, then you can figure out how to invest your time to say, okay, yes, some of what I valued, some of what I pictured was stuff that I need to buy. I want to Take a nice vacation, right? I want to not worry about being able to fix the car, right? And for those things, I have to turn my time into money. But because I value all these other things I do with my time, I have to figure out how to turn my time into money as efficiently as possible. And we've almost been brainwashed to view our careers as like the end in themselves. Like, that's the purpose of your life. And I feel like that's kind of the lean in era. It was like, this is what you're maximizing. You're maximizing your salary, you're maximizing prestige, you're maximizing accolades, right? But when you actually picture what you value, those things do not get you everything that you value, right? Because some of the things that you value, you need time for.

A (20:28)

It's so interesting. And look, there's realities we all live with. I imagine someone thinking, okay, like the life I have now, which I do like, or the school I send my kids to, the neighborhood, it requires me working a 50 hour a week job. But still, I think the exercise isn't to imagine that you have an unconstrained life. Like no one really has that. Like we don't have that. None of our listeners, I think, really have that. Okay? But the exercise clarifies what you value, which might give you more direction. Let's just say you're thinking, I have to have this job of working this many hours a week. Well, in the other hours it might just clarify, like how you really want to spend that time, what really, really matters, and a little bit on the margin. Do I need to be on slack right now? Can I put my computer away, my phone away? Can I be fully present for 20 minutes for dinner instead of distracted for 40 minutes for dinner? Whatever it is, right? I always think about my calendar as my value system. Anybody who knows me knows I take my calendar very seriously because I do what my calendar tells me. But I have to have a lot of agency in that. So as someone who's now working and feeling very lit up by that, I do want to still see my friends, okay? If I don't put in a lunch or a dinner with my friends weeks in advance, my calendar will fill up. And so I have to do that. Or my son's, you know, sports game in the calendar. And so now when someone says, oh, can you meet 3:30 on Thursday? I'm like, oh, I can, I can do this time instead. Because it's. My calendar is kind of a force function for making me represent what I really care about.

D (21:58)

Well, you have figured out a physical manifestation of the idea of investing your time in what you value. Right. Is that by blocking it out in your calendar, you are saying, I'm investing this much time and I'm not letting some other thing eat that time up, Right?

A (22:12)

That's exactly it.

B (22:14)

Yes.

A (22:15)

And the other thing about the calendar that I just have to say to you and to everyone else is even though I say I do what my calendar tells me, I'm the boss of my calendar. So often someone say, hey, can you come out to dinner this night? And I look at my calendar two Wednesdays from now, and I just wanna be very concrete. And I'm like, oh, I'm free on Wednesday night. Doesn't mean I'm gonna say yes. I then zoom out and I look at my week. I know for me, I'm just saying. And this is not right. I don't think this is some parenting gold. It's just my. What I've realized for my values, I at most go out one weeknight and on a Saturday night. We generally always go out on a Saturday night, see some friends, me and my husband, one weeknight. And so if I have something on a Thursday and a Saturday, my Wednesday might say free.

D (22:55)

Right.

A (22:55)

But I RCP no, with obviously exceptions. Right?

D (22:59)

Yeah.

A (22:59)

And so I think that's so mind blowing for a lot of people that your calendar might say free and you still say no. Or alternatively, I put something on the calendar that's not my kids soccer practice or my meeting at work, that's walk around the block for half an hour. And I protect that meeting with myself the same way I would protect our podcast time today.

D (23:24)

Yeah, absolutely. And that's actually like one of the strategies I tell people do in the book is like actually take your leisure time. And what I mean by leisure time is something that actually serves your utility function as a primary purpose. Okay, so when people say like, oh, yeah, this is my leisure time, I was helping my friend, or this is my leisure time, I was baking cookies.

C (23:45)

For my kids class, it's not actually your leisure time. Right. That's called parenting, that one.

D (23:50)

Right.

C (23:50)

That was part of your parenting time.

D (23:51)

So when I say leisure time, I mean something where the first beneficiary is actually you, which is really hard for us to do.

A (23:59)

I love that language. The first beneficiary. It's actually such a concrete way of visualizing it. Tell me more. And how do we mistake. How do we mistake that?

D (24:08)

Yeah, well, because I think we say.

C (24:10)

Like, well, I love baking cookies for my kid.

D (24:12)

Right. And I understand that you love it, and that's great, because then that's a way to show your love, because you can't. You don't want to fill up your basket with all the things that everybody else is doing to show their love.

C (24:23)

You want to pick the one that you love.

D (24:24)

And if you love baking cookies, bake the cookie. If you love practicing soccer, practice soccer. If you love bedtime, do the extended bedtime. Right? But that's great. But that's still not leisure time. Okay? And at the end of the day, the week, the year, and the years of our life, if we don't take leisure time to fill our own cup, we cannot be relaxed, we cannot be happy. We cannot be present and patient and.

C (24:49)

Joyful with our kids. We can't parent a la Dr. Becky and all the great advice we're getting.

D (24:54)

Because we're just so depleted. And so, for me, like, the biggest cure for my mom guilt was seeing my relationship with my son blossom when I was getting my needs met, that I was such a better parent when my cup was full, that that was what he needed more than all of the other things I was trying to give him that were making things not add up.

A (25:20)

Okay, two questions. First, let's say someone's thinking, even if my kid didn't have to bring cookies the next day, or if my kid was on a field trip overnight, I'd be baking those cookies anyway. Is that an example of someone who's like, oh, maybe that is for me. I just.

D (25:34)

Yeah, then it's for me. Then it's like, I actually like this. I'm the first kind of recipient of the benefit of this. And the same thing, if you're like, well, you know, going and helping my friend garden, it was actually first for me because I actually love getting outside.

C (25:45)

And I like having someone to talk to.

D (25:47)

Right. But, you know, are you the first.

C (25:50)

The primary beneficiary of this or not?

D (25:53)

And that's what I mean by leisure time. And I want you to block that out the same way you block out the appointment for your kid's soccer game, the podcast taping, or the meeting with your boss, because you moms who are listening and the dads who are listening, too, who, if you feel stretched for time, you're a member of your household.

A (26:14)

Yeah.

D (26:14)

We so often forget that, like, mom is a member of the household. And that was a huge mistake that I made in my own life and how I got to the point of being so depleted, where I Ended up making big changes. You can read about them in the book, but I forgot that to even consider my own needs in the equation. And if something is not working for you, it's not working for the family.

A (26:38)

Yeah.

D (26:39)

Because you're part of the family.

A (26:40)

Yeah.

B (26:46)

Winter nights with little kids feel endless, don't they? You finally get them down only to hear the shuffle of tiny feet at your door and cries from the other room, the dry air, stuffed noses, middle of the night coughs. It's just a recipe for restless sleep for them and for you. What I wish I had when my kids were younger, a Dreo baby humidifier. Not only is it a top of the line humidifier, but filling your child's room with a soft whisper quiet mist that improves air quality and eases congestion. It's also the only humidifier with a science backed sleep training feature. That's right, the light gently dims at bedtime and brightens in the morning, helping your child develop a healthy natural sleep cycle. And with a smart app and voice control, it makes your routine easier too. Because the last thing sleep deprived parents need is another complicated gadget. If you're looking for calmer nights and brighter mornings, check out the Dreo baby humidifier@dreo.com that's-r e o.com and use my code, Becky. 20 for 20% off.

A (27:55)

You know, I find this phrase you just said very provocative. And I like things that are provocative because it gets our body to respond. And you know, remember, I just keep hearing in my head, first for me, what do I do in my life that is first for me? And the reason I like the language is it sounds so close to selfish. And so many of us have been trained to think self care is selfish. First for me is selfish. Right. And again, we don't have to think in extremes. You don't need to be first for me with 100% of your time. Like I always say when I talk about self care as a mom, I'm not really talking about you going to Paris for three years and be like, hey guys, I just need to live in Paris. Or three or four. See her when you're 15. No, obviously. But that is what we imagine when we think about saying to our kid, no, you can't come with me for a walk around the block. Because the whole point is that I'm not with you for my walk around the block. Right. And we do kind of equate the emotionality of that. As if I'm saying to my kid, I'm going to Paris for three years, fend for yourself. And so I just love our listeners right now, her viewers thinking about the phrase first for me. I am doing something first for me. And I like saying it boldly. Cause I want people to be uncomfortable. Okay, first for me. And just to notice what comes up for me.

D (29:17)

Yeah. How that feels.

B (29:17)

Yeah.

A (29:18)

And what have you noticed comes up for women around that?

D (29:22)

I mean. Yeah, for women. For myself. Right. Just this idea that you feel like you're letting somebody down or you're not being as good of a mom as you possibly could be. And that's the problem with that idea of maximizing on all fronts at once is that you're like, I'm not as good of a worker as I possibly could be. I'm not as good of a mom as I possibly could be. I'm not as good of a PTA volunteer as I possibly could be. And it's like, no, because there's one 24 hour day and you're trying to do all of those things. So you're going to be the best that you can in each of those dimensions while also holding onto this core of yourself. Because if you let go of that core of yourself and then you can't show up in those other spaces either.

A (30:01)

That's so right. And the other thing I just want everyone listening to know because I'm sure people say a lot's coming up for me. Like, Dr. Becky, I feel like you're giving me a panic attack just thinking about that phrase. Okay. That panic is a sign that you're thinking about something new, not wrong. And here's how I know that it's not wrong.

D (30:18)

Okay.

A (30:19)

I don't know one baby who came out of the womb thinking, I feel like I can't scream at 2am for food.

C (30:27)

It just, I need to think about other people.

A (30:29)

I don't know, like, would my friends scream? And I don't. Is this too much? No. You know, babies are first for me at 2am, at 4am, at 10pm, they don't care. Okay, first for me. So it's really interesting. And by the way, that's adaptive. Because if a baby was always thinking about a parent's needs, they wouldn't scream. No parent is willingly waking up at 2am being like, I'm just gonna check if the baby needs to eat again. And so first for me comes from an adaptive evolutionary place. And somehow most of us women went from I wear my personal needs and desires on my sleeve to my personal needs and desires are scary. Or they're so distant for me. Like, I don't even know. I don't even know where they are. Right. But they do. I always tell people they're in there. Yeah, you wouldn't have survived without personal needs. And yes, it's a balance of. Of course, there's times we all don't do me first because we have to go, you know, do something for other people. That's just what it means to be in a healthy relationship. But so many of us have lost the first.

D (31:36)

For me, we've lost the balance, and then we almost lose the experience of our lives, like, being present in the experience of our lives. And that was how I felt in my own life. I felt like I was, like, standing outside of it, and I was just doing, you know, running, rushing, trying. Right. And I didn't have experiences like, we lose sight of ourselves as the protagonists of our lives. And I will give listeners watchers, like, one more piece of permission to do this. Cause we need. We need that.

A (32:06)

Yes.

D (32:07)

Which is that when people hear the stats about, you know, men not doing as much in the household and how that really needs to change, we're like, well, part of it is how we parent our boys, Right? There's things we can do in parenting our boys proactively and bringing them into the work of the household. But actually, a huge thing that you can do to change this for the next generation is protect your own needs and recognize yourself as a person who has feelings and desires and a multiplicity of desires within the household. Because if you let yourself become an angry, empty, depleted shell in service of your children and your family, you are modeling for your sons that they can expect that of their wives.

A (32:52)

100%. Yes. Like, right on the nose that kids learn from what we do, not from what we say. So you can have all the good conversations, but if your kid's watching you run into. Run yourself into the ground in the name of love, then that's just modeling what a loving relationship is, which is not what we want.

D (33:09)

So you can think of yourself as a warrior for gender equality when you actually take care of yourself.

A (33:15)

I love that. And just to make that one more level, concrete for people, you know, I'll use myself as an example. So I'm going on a girls trip in a couple of weeks with some of my, you know, friends. And now my kids are used to me, you know, traveling for work or different things. But when this started, like, the first time, of course I was like, oh, my goodness. And you're always missing something, you know, Ah. You know, I want to be there for even this the night before my kid's test, whatever it is.

B (33:40)

Right?

A (33:40)

And I remember one of the times when early on, my kids said, oh, like, what you're going away from for, you know, I don't know, three, four nights, whatever it was, why are you doing that? And why can't we come with you? And I think sometimes in these situations, because we're uncomfortable, we kind of put something parentified on our kids. Don't you want me to be happy? Like, oh, ish. Right. And it's so unsteady, you know? And so I remember hearing myself say, I love being your mom. I love it. I love our time together. I love putting you to bed at night. Like, I love, you know, the dinners and those conversations and the play. D'oh. All the things. Okay. And I love the time I have with my girlfriends. Orvid. I love going out to dinner with your dad when it's just the two of us. It's inherently different. And that is still a very important part of me. And my job is to make sure I keep it alive. And so I think, also what I don't always say is, you can be mad. I don't need you to say, this is going to be really good for you, Mom. Enjoy that trip. You deserve it. And I know you're going to come back more refreshed to be my parent. Win, win. Like, my kids have never said that. But the more you're aware of your value and knowing the importance to yourself and your whole system of having me first some of the time, the more you can tolerate some of that messiness in people's response, too.

D (35:00)

Yeah, that's right. Tolerate the discomfort. Because you know that by filling your own cup, that is supporting. That's part of the scaffolding of you being able to show up as the type of parent that you want to be.

A (35:13)

That's exactly right. And, you know, the other thing that struck me about this is, you know, I'm a Duke basketball fan, okay?

C (35:20)

I went to Duke. Did you know that? I didn't know that. Yeah, Duke undergrad.

A (35:24)

Me, too.

C (35:25)

No, I had that.

A (35:26)

Yeah, go Blue Devils and UNC people right now. I still love you. Multiple things can be true, okay? But I won't be rooting for you on the next game, but I'm pretty sure this is right, right? It shouldn't speak out of turn, but I think there's this game last year where Cooper Flagg, right? This, like, amazing, amazing star, you know, he's this amazing Player, he can SC also was amazing in his assists, defense, like, blocks, everything. And there was a game where I think he was reflecting, or maybe it was the coach, John Shire, reflecting that there are certain moments when they need him to, quote, be more selfish.

B (35:58)

Right?

A (35:58)

Where, yeah, we know you can pass. Like, when the game's on the line and you know you can score, the team needs you to score. And even if someone's like, pass to me, pass to me. And you're like, I just know I've got this, like, the greater good. And if the team is the family, is for you to do your thing. And sometimes when I'm thinking about a moment where I'm like, I know, still, it can feel uncomfortable to go on this trip. Like, I'm like, I'm just gonna channel my Cooper flag.

B (36:25)

The team isn't gonna tell me, I.

A (36:28)

Need you to go on this trip. But, like, the team, the team wants to win, period. The team wants to win. My family wants to win as a family. And this is sometimes a part of that.

D (36:38)

And with parents, always, the thing that we see a little bit more than our kids is the bigger picture, Right.

C (36:44)

When it's a toddler, you're seeing a much bigger picture. They're really focused on that tiny moment.

D (36:48)

But even when it's a teenage, you're still seeing a bigger picture, a longer view than what they're seeing. And so even though they want you in that moment, for me, it was.

C (36:58)

Like going to yoga. And my son used to be like.

D (36:59)

I don't want you to go to Woga.

C (37:02)

So then you're like, oh, my God, I feel so bad.

D (37:04)

Right? But what you see that they don't see is like, yes. But then for me to spend an hour tucking you into bed and reading stories and listening to you, and to then be patient when you're pushing back on a limit or when you're, you know, telling me no, that's right. And then I'm able to sit there and be patient and let you have your feelings, that is because I went to yoga.

A (37:23)

That's right. And it's okay. I just want everyone to know this. You can know that without having to.

D (37:30)

Explain it all, you know, to explain it.

A (37:31)

Right. And your kid isn't going to say, I understand the bigger picture. They are the kid, you are the adult. And actually, I think this becomes a little bit easier when you can kind of look at yourself in the mirror and say, I'm gonna go to yoga. My son's gonna be upset looking in the mirror. I know I deserve this. I know I need this. I know this is one of those me first moments where yes, it's gonna be uncomfortable because it's new, not wrong. And this is for the greater good. This is so our team can win and the other players in this moment might not give me a high five because they want the ball. Yeah, that's okay. And I have clarity and I can proceed. And so I just, I love that.

B (38:17)

Do you ever think I love my kid, but I really don't like them right now? Usually after those moments when they look.

A (38:24)

You dead in the eye, do the thing you ask them not to do.

B (38:27)

And maybe even laugh in your face. Look, if that sounds familiar, you are not alone. And I have one of those kids too. I call this kid my resilient rebel. And let's just say this kid has definitely kept me on my toes. And what works for other kids, it totally backfires with this kid. And then you're left thinking, why is this so hard? Am I doing something wrong? Here's the truth. You're not doing something wrong. These kids just need a different approach. Earlier this year I ran a workshop called why is everything a Battle? It was so powerful for parents, I knew we had to bring it back. And it's happening again on Wednesday, November 19th. You'll leave really understanding your kid with strategies you can use right away and relief that you know what to do the next time a power struggle starts. And you'll have that feeling back of liking your kid again and feeling close. The event is included in your good inside membership. If you're not a member yet, no worries, you can join and save your spot@goodinside.com defiance. That's goodinside.com defiance.

A (39:36)

Let me ask you, just as we kind of come to an end, I'm picturing the parent who's gonna end up lying in bed at night and just thinking about, oh my goodness, all the things they have to do and how they don't have enough hours in the day. What is a small step someone could take to rebalance, to reprioritize, to recenter on your own values.

D (40:00)

So one is that I want you to find something that you're going to actually take off your plate. Okay. And that could be because you're going to reallocate it to your partner. Right. And I talk in the book about promoting our partners from low level junior employees to co CEOs of the household.

A (40:18)

Congratulations.

D (40:19)

Yeah, it's empowering.

C (40:20)

You say, guess what, you're getting a promotion.

A (40:22)

Yes.

C (40:22)

You're gonna take end to end ownership of the lunchboxes instead of me delegating it to you. You're gonna be in, you know, the shopping and the packing and the cleaning up. And then you're going to learn that.

D (40:32)

If you send Wheat Thins instead of Triscuits, they come back uneaten. And it's not going to be my.

C (40:36)

Job to tell you that. Okay?

A (40:37)

Yeah.

C (40:37)

So giving your partners a promotion.

D (40:39)

So it could be because you're giving it to your partners. It could be because you are actually outsourcing it. And that can be a scary, charged word because people hear outsourcing and they.

C (40:48)

Hear like, oh, this and her, like, disposable income. Who wants me to outsource.

D (40:55)

Right. But actually, what I want us to remember is that we're actually pretty comfortable outsourcing male coded tasks and uncomfortable outsourcing female coded tasks. So even very modest income families, probably most of the people here listening, take their car to the mechanic for an oil change, and it's 70 bucks, 80 bucks, and everybody could do it themselves if they spend an hour on YouTube. But we assign value to men's time, so we think it's normal to hire thick people for male coded tasks.

A (41:22)

I just. This is one of the moments I wish I could snap. I don't. I actually am unable to snap because I would just be, like, snapping so hardcore right now. So I'm snapping in spirit.

C (41:31)

Yeah.

D (41:31)

So just if there is something where, you know, you are not outsourcing, it means hiring yourself to do it. And, you know, just like the mechanic, sometimes it's okay to bring in an expert, an outside expert for something rather than hire yourself. And then the last thing is then maybe there's some stuff that you just don't do. And I call this throwing out your houseplants. Okay. Because all of my houseplants are dying. Okay. I'm on book tour, and they make me feel guilty and, like, a failure house plants.

C (42:01)

And I would love to be the type of person that has, like, the herb garden on the windowsill that I can, like, snip the fresh herbs and sprinkle them on the chicken or whatever. Right.

D (42:10)

And maybe I'm not gonna be that person right now. Right? Right now in this chapter of my life, it's a period that I call the squeeze, where everything is pushing down at once. Maybe that's not who I am, and that's okay. And so finding a houseplant to throw out something, you're just saying, I'm gonna put this down right Now.

B (42:28)

Right.

D (42:28)

Because all of this doesn't fit in my time basket. That's okay. So I hope that's the one thing I would ask everyone to do, is to just find something to get off of your plate through one of those different strategies.

A (42:39)

It's so actionable and so helpful and possible. Thank you. This has been an amazing conversation. I can't wait to talk to you about so many more things in the future. This is so helpful and thank you for your really important work.

C (42:54)

Thank you so much. Yeah, it was great to talk to you and, you know, I think there's so much more I wish I could fit in, but there's more strategies in.

D (43:00)

The book and I hope that people will find it.

A (43:03)

Absolutely. Having it all, what data tells us about women's lives and getting the most out of yours, it's incredible. So thought provoking and so practical, and that's a marriage I always love. So thank you.

C (43:14)

Thank you so much.

A (43:15)

I have so many takeaways from this conversation, but I'm going to talk about the three that are kind of loudest in my mind. Number one, this idea of throwing out a house plant I just find so actionable. Is there something we can all just say, I'm not going to do that in this season of my life this week. Try it, experiment and just see what happens. Number two, this idea that we think about out outsourcing traditionally male tasks completely differently than we think about outsourcing traditionally female tasks has got me really thinking. Actually, right after recording, Corinda and I were talking about the idea of hiring a professional organizer, and she knows someone who does it for $50 an hour, which is less money than the per hour cost of getting an oil change. And so just think about that a little bit. And number three, I just keep thinking about the importance of boundaries. At the end of the day, our ability to carve out time for ourself, to have hard conversations with our partner, and definitely to tolerate the pushback and the whining and the meltdowns that might come from our kids. It all comes down to do. I know the skill of setting and holding a boundary. And a lot of, you know, that's actually my favorite skill to teach. And I just keep thinking about how important that is. All right, let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground and a hand on your heart. And let's remind ourselves even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon. Do you ever feel like you tend to fall into the same parenting patterns. Oh, I know I'm not supposed to just fix the moments that my kid is upset, but I just want to see them happy. Oh, I end up being harsher in difficult moments than I want to be. Or I cannot believe that I'm actually doing the thing my parent used to do that I promised myself I wouldn't do. I have good and relieving news for you. Every parent has a pattern and actually a lot of our patterns are were put in place in a way that is helpful even if these patterns work against us sometime. This is why we created a brand new free quiz@goodinside.com better because step one in a parenting journey is just discovering your parenting pattern. I would love for you to check it out and I would love for you to hear the results. People are learning so much about themselves and I don't want you to miss out out. So go to goodinside.com better and then share your results with me. Send me a DM or tag me on Instagram. I can't wait to hear about it.