Helping Kids Through Loss with Grief Expert David Kessler

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

Good Inside with Dr. Becky Kennedy – "Helping Kids Through Loss with Grief Expert David Kessler"
Date: December 9, 2025
Guest: David Kessler, internationally renowned grief expert

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Overview of the Episode

In this deeply moving and practical episode, Dr. Becky Kennedy welcomes grief expert David Kessler for an open, honest discussion about helping kids—and ourselves—navigate grief and loss. Drawing on Kessler’s personal history and professional expertise, they share actionable insights on supporting children through all forms of grief, not just death: divorce, moves, disappointments, and more. Listeners receive frameworks, language, and validation for one of parenting’s hardest moments, with compassionate guidance on how to show up authentically and not leave kids alone in their pain.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Journeys into Grief Work

[02:28–03:55]

• David shares his traumatic childhood filled with multiple forms of loss, including his mother’s death during a mass shooting event, and how these experiences propelled him into grief work—not by choice, but necessity.
  • “I grew up with a lot of loss in my childhood...I came away from that feeling really damaged and broken...finding my own way through it.” (David Kessler, 03:07)

2. Children’s ‘Magical Thinking’ and the Personalization of Loss

[04:01–06:39]

• Children often believe they cause bad things to happen, not because parents say so, but as a way to regain a sense of control.
  • “That’s key with children, is that we personalize it. We think we did something.” (David Kessler, 04:33)
  • “We would rather be guilty than helpless.” (David Kessler, 06:39)
• This magical thinking is adaptive in childhood, offering an illusion of control.

3. The Isolation of Grief and the Impact of Adult Responses

[07:12–10:12]

• Dr. Becky reflects on children's vulnerability and the danger of shutting down conversations about grief.
• David describes feeling isolated when his grief was not acknowledged and public disclosure (like a teacher announcing a parent had died) ultimately caused embarrassment rather than solace.
  • “It felt so isolating. Only me again. I am the only one in this pain.” (David Kessler, 08:15)
  • “You’ve been thrown onto another planet with no instructions.” (David Kessler, 10:12)

4. Defining Grief: Love and Change

[10:17–11:39]

• David provides two powerful, memorable definitions:
  • “Grief is love. It’s another form of love.”
  • “Grief is a change we didn’t want.” (David Kessler, 10:30 & 10:39)
• Dr. Becky emphasizes the power of simply naming a child’s experience, “You didn’t want this to happen,” as a profound intervention.

5. Parents Want to Fix, but Grief Isn't a Problem to Solve

[11:39–13:19]

• Parents’ instinct is to fix or protect kids from sadness, but grief is not brokenness, and the real path is to teach kids how to feel and continue living.
  • “Grief is not being broken. Grief is, you know, these feelings that happen to us...to be with, not to fix.” (David Kessler, 11:41)
  • “You have to teach them how to grieve and how to live grieving. Feel those feelings and life continues.” (David Kessler, 12:49)

6. Rewriting Our Stories with Compassion

[13:32–15:43]

• With time and healing, we can revisit childhood judgments and reinterpret them with adult compassion—for parents, authority figures, and ourselves.
  • “As an adult, I could find compassion...my mother didn’t abandon me. She died.” (David Kessler, 14:54)

7. Big Myths and Misunderstandings About Children’s Grief

[16:01–16:47]

• Children are “puddle jumpers”:
  • They move in and out of grieving quickly; adults can misinterpret this as lack of feeling.
  • “A child can be in enormous pain...and five minutes later, want to go out to play.” (David Kessler, 16:35)

8. The Dignity of Pain & The True Role of Parents

[16:51–18:37]

• Parents should allow children the dignity of owning their pain.
  • “We have to give even our children the dignity of their own experience.” (David Kessler, 17:08)
• The goal isn’t to erase their hard moments, but to ensure children never feel alone in them.
  • “We can’t change the hard, but we can change the alone.” (Dr. Becky Kennedy, 17:54)
• Grief must be witnessed, not distracted away:
  • “Grief must be witnessed. We need our grief witnessed. We need to know someone else sees our pain.” (David Kessler, 18:37)

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9. Grieving as a Parent: The Loss of David’s Son

[20:36–23:12]

• David shares the profound devastation of losing his own son, adopted from foster care and lost to addiction.
  • “It was…shocking and paralyzing to be in that kind of pain.” (David Kessler, 21:51)
• The pain of grief is incommensurable; “the pain we’re in is the worst pain.”

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10. Practical Guidance: Honest Conversations About Death

[23:12–27:32]

• Avoid euphemisms like “went to sleep” or “went on a long trip.” They confuse and distress children, causing sleep issues and anxiety.
• Truthful, loving explanations ground children in reality, lessen anxiety, and build trust.

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11. The Funeral Question: Should Kids Attend?

[27:43–36:03]

• David’s take: Funerals are a once-in-a-lifetime event and a teaching moment; he leans toward involving kids, with preparation and honesty.
  • “Funeral…is another way we say I love you.” (David Kessler, 28:24)
• Dr. Becky finds a middle ground: Don’t force, don’t abdicate the decision to children, but give context, information, and support.
  • “Kids can handle more than we realize…Funerals can be a very concrete representation.” (Dr. Becky Kennedy, 36:04)
• Prepare children for literal misunderstandings ("headstone" literal story, 34:34-35:53).

12. Alternatives and Cultural Considerations

[36:37–37:36]

• Mini-rituals, memory gatherings, and alternative ceremonies can be meaningful if a funeral doesn’t fit.
• Families and cultures make the ultimate decisions.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “We would rather be guilty than helpless.” – David Kessler [06:39]
• “Grief is love. Grief is a change we didn’t want.” – David Kessler [10:30–10:39]
• “We can’t change the hard, but we can change the alone.” – Dr. Becky Kennedy [17:54]
• “Grief must be witnessed. We need our grief witnessed.” – David Kessler [18:37]
• “Truthful answers, even if uncomfortable, because I know we can get through hard things together.” – Dr. Becky Kennedy [32:20]
• “What we run from pursues us, and what we face transforms us.” – David Kessler [38:12]
• “Say their name. Ask about the person. You didn’t make them cry, you became a safe person to cry with.” – David Kessler [39:06–39:39]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Personal history and pathway to grief work: [02:28–03:55]
• Children’s magical thinking and assuming fault: [04:01–06:39]
• Isolation and the struggle to find support: [08:15–10:12]
• Simple, profound definitions of grief: [10:17–11:39]
• Puddle jumping and myths about kids’ grief: [16:01–16:47]
• The dignity of pain and the role of parents: [16:51–18:37]
• Losing a child, navigating personal grief: [20:36–23:12]
• How to talk to kids about death: [23:12–27:32]
• Should kids attend funerals?: [27:43–36:03]
• Practical rapid fire takeaways: [37:41–39:55]

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Actionable Takeaways for Parents

• Acknowledge children’s feelings openly and honestly. Use clear, simple language; avoid confusing euphemisms.
• Don’t try to fix grief. Be a witness, a companion, not a problem-solver.
• Model living with grief. Show children it’s possible to feel pain and go on.
• Give children dignity in their experience—resist sweeping pain away.
• Prepare for literal questions and misunderstandings; clarify language thoughtfully.
• Create rituals for grief, whether traditional or personalized, and involve children with context and support.

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Rapid Fire Wisdom & Final Thoughts

• “Grief is forever, but you can remember with more love than pain.” [37:48]
• “What we run from pursues us, what we face transforms us.” [38:12]
• Never compare or insert your own loss; just listen and love. [38:30, 38:47]
• Saying their name and inviting stories is a gift. [39:06]

Metaphor for Grief:
“For every spring, there’s a summer. For every summer, a fall. For every fall, a winter. Everything that lives dies. And we have this wonderful time in between to be with one another.” (David Kessler, [39:55])

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Tone

The episode is warm, candid, and full of compassion—a blend of lived experience, wisdom, and practical guidance. Both Dr. Becky and David Kessler emphasize honesty, presence, and shared humanity as the best tools for parents supporting grieving children.

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For parents facing the unthinkable or navigating everyday losses, this conversation offers empathy, validation, concrete advice, and hope—a blueprint for not letting kids be alone in their pain and for honoring the grief we all must face together.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

Let's be real. Holidays are festive and expensive. There's travel and gifts and event tickets.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

And two a day grocery runs because somehow you ran out of butter again. And it all adds up fast. One way to find some balance.

[Podcast Host]

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[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

A little extra cash.

[Podcast Host]

Think about it. All of the little details, from bathtime toys to bedroom nightlights, could make your place the perfect home away from home for another family while you're not there. Plus, that extra income could be put toward this year's presence or help fund a January reset. Your home might be worth more than you think.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Find out how [e-mail] host as you know, I love talking about emotions, but there's one I don't talk about a lot. And honestly, it's one that I think I have a lot of struggle around. Grief. Now, we can easily think, no one in my life has died recently. No one's about to die. But here's the thing. We cannot go through life without processing grief. It will happen to all of us. It will happen to our kids. And it's more than just a death in the family. It's shifting stages. It's moving. There's so many ways grief comes up. And what I promise you is my conversation today with David Kessler, one of the world's foremost experts on grief and loss is going to transform you. It is going to make you feel. It is going to give you visuals that stay with you forever. And I think one of the most powerful things about this conversation is it's going to give you frameworks to understand complicated feelings maybe before they happen next time. And having those frameworks in you now will change how those experiences end up being processed in your body and how things end up going in your family home. Trust me, this is a conversation you do not want to miss. And you also might want to get a tissue or two ready. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is good inside. We'll be back right after this.

Hi, David.

[David Kessler]

Hi. Nice to be here.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

So happy to have you. So let's just jump right in.

[David Kessler]

Okay.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

We're gonna be talking about grief and loss, and I'm a big definitions person. Right. I feel like that gives me a framework. And so let's just start with grief. How do you define grief? What brought you to be interested in it? Let's just start there.

[David Kessler]

Okay. I think what brought me to be. It's what Brought me to be interested in this. It's not a career that most people choose. It kind of chose me. I grew up with a lot of loss in my childhood, from neglect to sexual abuse, addiction. And then When I was 13, my mother was dying, and at the same time she was dying where we were staying at the hotel, there was a fire and a shooting. It turned out to be one of the first mass shootings in the US So it was a lot. And I came away from that feeling really damaged and broken. And this life was shot. But luckily, I had a neighbor who really sort of gave me a little attention that I needed. And she said, because I dropped out of school, she said, how old? Probably 13, 14. And she said, you know, after a couple of years, I just walked the streets. And she said, you know, you seem kind of smart. You can challenge your high school diploma. So I went back and I did that, Went to community college, Started learning about this field, really, from my own healing. Never thinking it'd be a career.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yeah.

[David Kessler]

So that's what got me into this. It's just finding my own way through it.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

And how, when you were younger, how did you see the adults around you? How was grief modeled?

[David Kessler]

Here's not. Well, the only advice I got was from someone in the hallway of the hospital who said, stay strong, which kind of meant, take care of everyone and get rid of your feelings. And the other thing that I think is really surprising is as a child, I thought I was the only one that ever had a parent die. I mean, everyone I knew had parents.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yeah.

[David Kessler]

So it was me.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

It was me. Like, I must have done something wrong on some level.

[David Kessler]

Absolutely. Yeah, Absolutely. And I think that's key with children, is that we personalize it. We think we did something. You know, we all say challenging things to our parents. So you think I just would have been better, nicer, more obedient, whatever it was.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yeah.

[David Kessler]

So that's what got me here.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

There's so many things I want to double click on one at a time. Let me think if I can hold them in my brain.

What you're saying, I think is so important and just for anyone listening, it's hard to understand. Cause you're like, wait, I never told my kid that it was their fault that I got sick or that.

[David Kessler]

Correct.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

No one says that. I mean, maybe some parents say that. We hope they don't. Like, you know, it's gonna be your fault if I die. That's usually not what people say.

[David Kessler]

We call that magical thinking.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Magical thinking. And I think about it. In terms of what's really adaptive, I'm always grounded in evolution. Well, when a kid is overwhelmed by sensation and feel, kids depend on adults for survival.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

And so if an adult gets sick or, you know, dies, a kid is overwhelmed by the feeling of, oh, my goodness, one of the people I depend on for everything in this world is not here anymore. They have to try to make sense of that. And if they don't have a safe adult to tell them a story of how to make sense, kids are really left to their own devices and actually taking in fault. It must be my fault. It sounds like, oh, why would I do that to myself when I was a kid? It's very adaptive. Cause at least it feels like I could be better. There's something in my control.

[David Kessler]

I have some control.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Right. Hundred percent. And so it ends up catching up with us later in life. It's usually not adaptive. Absolutely.

[David Kessler]

Absolutely.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

But for a lot of years. And so I just think that's so powerful that. Yes. Magical thinking, but also, as a kid, what a crafty thing to try to create a story that actually gives you control back versus the frozenness of. I guess anyone could be taken away from me at any moment without reason.

[David Kessler]

And that's one of the things I always teach. We would rather be guilty than helpless.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

I just want to let that sit.

[David Kessler]

Yeah. Guilty than helpless. We'd rather have an illusion of control than live in this world where anyone can die any moment. My fault is better than people randomly dying. Think of that as a child.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yeah.

There's so many applications of that. But feeling out of control and helpless and like the world is random and anything could happen to you at any moment is kind of like an unlivable scenario.

[David Kessler]

Correct.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Right. And I'm always drawn. I think about it in terms of the power of repair and attachment. But it's really relevant here, this powerful Fairburn quote, I don't know if you know it, where he says, for kids, it's better to be a sinner than in a world ruled by God, than to live in a world ruled by the devil. So similar. Like, I'd rather take fault and badness in than to think I'm kind of a good, relatively helpless kid and the world around me is kind of bad. That's, again, kind of unlivable.

[David Kessler]

And I reached out to my father and wanted to talk about grief, and he shut it down.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Tell me more about that.

[David Kessler]

He just. He didn't know how. He didn't know how. He said, we're not talking about that. You know, your mother's gone. That's it.

So luckily, I took it upon myself to learn to understand what had happened to me.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Well, I want to ask you two questions at once to answer in either order. I'm curious what you remember that feeling like when it was shut down. And I'm curious your understanding of it now.

[David Kessler]

It felt so isolating. Only me again. I am the only one in this pain. Everyone else seems to be doing okay but me. And also an important thing with children is I can remember going back to school. And it's probably one of the reasons why I ended up dropping out is the teacher, in her kindness, was in front of everyone. Oh my gosh, everyone. David's mother had died. Da, da, da. And the thing is, kids read that stuff as embarrassment. I was embarrassed. I was the kid who had a mother who died. Now, as adults, we would never think death is embarrassing, but as a child, that's how sometimes we read it. So I always, I do a lot of education around teachers and, and really making sure that they understand how to acknowledge things a little more privately rather than making someone stand out who always already feels like they're standing out.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Everyone be nice to David today.

[David Kessler]

Be nice to David.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Good intentions.

[David Kessler]

Great intentions. Great intentions.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

And I think part of it, I wonder for you is.

Your feeling state, your sensations where obviously so intense. And we know the feelings intensify as we feel alone. And so in a way, the publicness of it is even worse because it calls attention to something. First of all, you weren't ready for it, right? So it's like an assault in the moment. And then in some ways, you're starting to feel seen publicly for a set of feelings you've been told in your home shouldn't even be there in the first place.

[David Kessler]

Correct.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

So really not just a message, trying.

[David Kessler]

To survive and behave and figure out this new world I'm in. And I think that's what death is and loss. You've been thrown.

Onto another planet with no instructions.

I think that's true for adults and it's just as if not more true for children. So getting back to what's my definition of grief? I have two of them. One is.

Especially when we're talking about death, grief is love. Grief is love. It's another form of love.

And the second definition is grief is a change we didn't want. So that could be the divorce, that could be moving. That could be.

Someone, you know, not being the person we thought they would be.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

All those things, love and something you didn't want, which. The simplicity of those words, it's so interesting. One of the things I share with parents a lot, in very minor scenarios compared to death, you show up to the ice cream place and it's closed, or you thought you had soccer practice and it started an hour earlier, right? The simple language of, you didn't want this to happen, correct? Hard stop, zip it, nothing else. It is both so simple and so profound. And how, like, you didn't like. Yeah, that's exactly. That's like kind of the. The whole essence of my experience is actually that I didn't want that to happen. And that's a really painful experience when we have things in various degrees that we didn't want to happen.

[David Kessler]

And I think the hardest thing for parents is we. We don't want them to have this pain they're having. So we try to fix and make it okay, and we can't, because grief is not being broken. Grief is, you know, these feelings that happen to us that there's. It's feelings to be with, not to fix. And, you know, that throws us all for a loop.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

And something you shared in your story that's so profound is you were feeling so much grief after the loss of your mom. And I think there's this narrative, not only to kids, but to adults, be strong for your son, Be strong for your daughter. Right? But if there's a really massive gap, I don't think anyone thinks for a kid who's grieving, you want a parent who is completely melting and can't function. Right. There's extremes, but if there's such a big gap, my kid is devastated, he lost his mom, and I seemingly can just go on and back to work like nothing happened. That's actually really disturbing and almost shaming to a kid who's feeling so intensely.

[Podcast Host]

Well.

[David Kessler]

And getting back to the simplicity of it, I tell parents, and by the way, when people say, would you rather talk to the child or the parent? I'm always like, the parent. Let me work with the parent. So you know that feeling, right? So I always tell parents two things. You have to teach them how to grieve and how to live grieving. Feel those feelings and life continues. We're still going to do things.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

So it informs one of the reasons why I think a parent might have especially a hard time with that. But going back to your dad, do you have an understanding now? Doesn't make it okay. But of why your dad reacted like that, why he didn't want to talk.

[David Kessler]

About anything, he was completely overwhelmed. He was completely overwhelmed. It's interesting. One of the things that I did in my own healing was this, is as an adult. I went back and rewrote my story as everyone else. So, for instance, when I was a kid, the nurses didn't let me see my mother. I had to be 13.

I had to be 14. I was only 13. My father didn't want to talk about it, and I felt like my mother abandoned me. So think about this. Years later, when I began to do this work and I really looked and went, wait a minute. What was it like for those nurses? I realized, oh, it's very nuanced. I bet some of them like those rules. Some of them might have felt bad in forcing them. Some of them might have thought they were doing the right thing. It became really interesting to look at that. And then I got to my father, who I judged, who wasn't there for me. Wait, his wife's dying. He's going to be a parent, and he's never really been a parent. He doesn't know how to do this. He can't pay for his wife's burial. So all of a sudden, the man I had so much judgment for as an adult, I could find compassion. And my mother, who I thought abandoned me, I was able to realize that's what a child's mind does, abandonment. My mother didn't abandon me. She died.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Wow. I'm just sitting with what you said. It's just so powerful and makes me think about whether it's grief or something else. The power of rewriting the story of the people around you. And I think there's another two things are true when we gain understanding in a different way than we used to have, that doesn't take away from the pain.

[David Kessler]

No.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

And so I just like.

[David Kessler]

And I know, you know, stories exist.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

That's right. That's right.

[David Kessler]

My childhood story exists and my adult story exists.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

That's right. And they're just. They could both be on the shelf. There's no.

[David Kessler]

There's no canceling of one another, any of that.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

No ranking. Right.

[David Kessler]

Right.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yes. I think that's so beautiful. You know, I don't want to distill it down to this, but as you've.

Thought and lived or hungry for so long, are there one two things that you feel like people really misunderstand about grief? Like, they really have one framework, and a different framework is more helpful, I think.

[David Kessler]

One thing is for children.

They're puddle jumpers. They jump into the pain and they jump out. For adults, when we are in Grief. If someone came up to us in grief and sad in our first few weeks, do you want to go to a party? We'd be like, are you kidding? I'm in grief. I can't get to a part. Why would you even ask me? I'd be insulted. A child can be in enormous pain. Grandpa died in this moment, and five minutes later, want to go out to play? So I think adults don't realize children. Puddle jumpers.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yeah.

[David Kessler]

In and out of the grief, and they need that distraction.

I think the other thing is.

As I mentioned, we're fixers. We want to fix. We don't want our kids to be in pain. And it's really. I often try to say to myself, to others, we have to give even our children the dignity of their own experience.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Oh, so beautiful.

[David Kessler]

And it's so hard when they're in pain. Like, we don't want to get. We want to give them the dignity of winning the award. We don't want to give them the dignity of their pain.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yeah.

[David Kessler]

And that's hard.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

It is. I'm a visual person, and sometimes I think logically, order of operations. Like, one of the things I find it's helpful to level with parents about is the pain is there. Like, come and gone. Like, that's there. That's, like, a fact. So the only real choice we have is what we do next. Because I think we get into, I don't want my kid to feel this way. And there's something like, they do feel this way. Oh, I wish they didn't feel okay. It's already happening.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

It's kind of like the ice cream store is closed. What are we gonna do next? We can't make it open. So I think this idea and your experience really speaks to it. Like, we.

[Podcast Host]

For our kids, no matter what it.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Is, we can't change the hard, but we can change the alone. And I think we focus too much on fixing the hard.

[Podcast Host]

The thing we can fix is the alone.

[David Kessler]

Right. And that's what we want to know. Just like I felt no one was in this with me. For our parents and to just, like, they're in this with us. I think the other thing is.

You know, our kids. Pain is so hard, we want to throw a million shiny objects. We want it. Well, let's go to your favorite place. Let's do this. Let's get you out of it. And grief must be witnessed. We need our grief witnessed.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yeah.

[David Kessler]

We need to know someone else sees our pain.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yes, absolutely.

[Podcast Host]

If you're getting ready for holiday Travel.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

I have a little tip that might.

[Podcast Host]

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[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

So, so much grief and loss. In your early years you became very interested in grief and loss. And then I know you experienced the loss of your own son.

[David Kessler]

Yes, I have two sons and I adopted my two sons from the LA county.

Adoption foster care system. They'd been in five foster homes. I had the illusion they were four and five years old when I got them. I had the illusion that love would conquer all. And I forgot how important those first few years were. So I tried my best to overcome that and give them great childhoods. But still those demons came up from their past when they were in their teenage years. And my younger son David died at 21 after really a tough, tough fight with addiction. And he was actually born drug exposed. So that was really brutal to watch. Brutal for me, brutal for his brother. It was tough.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Barry, I'm so sorry for your loss.

[David Kessler]

Thank you.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Being on that side of grief, not your own parent, but your son, was it a different experience of grief?

[David Kessler]

It was. I was shocked and paralyzed to be in that kind of pain.

You know, it's hard for me to. People will go, well, was it different than as your child? You know, childhood and all that. And it's like it's Just pain. So I could never figure out which would be worse or all those things. I mean.

I always feel like the pain we're in is the worst pain. And that was pretty brutal. Pretty brutal. And it's been nine years now. I have found.

Joy and happiness and again, and I try to live in his honor. And partly I really had to do that for his brother. I had to really teach him life goes on no matter what we've been through. And I think the hardest things sometimes for me and for parents is to realize our kids are going to go through loss. If we're going to teach them about staying safe in the road and everything else, we have to teach them about loss. When, how do we do it? When it occurs, when the neighbor dies, when the dog dies. That's our moment to teach.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

I think that's exactly right. Just when do we teach? When it occurs. Like parents hear all the time, Grandma's dying of cancer, but my son is three. So young. And again there's like this.

We can't ignore reality. Again. Is he young at three? Sure, three is young. Grandma is dying. He sees Grandma every week. Now Grandma's in the hospital. He hears the word cancer. Like, grandma's not gonna come around soon. So we don't really have a choice. Like in my mind, like it's here. So either he's gonna live it alone and confused or we have to figure out the best way to talk to a 3 year old about that.

[David Kessler]

Oh, we do have a choice. And sometimes we make choices that are not good ones. I have heard Grandma's gone to live somewhere else, Grandpa's gone on a long trip, all of those things. And then you've got this young child that just hears, grandpa went on a long trip. Wait, wait. And then five years later, we're going to Disney World. Wait, wait, who's going to die? Someone's dying on this trip.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

That's exactly right. Grandma went to sleep. And then six months later, my kids had a lot of sleep issues. I'm like, I'm gonna help connect the dots for you here.

[David Kessler]

Yes. Oh, there's a reason they've got little insomnia there. Who wants to go to sleep and die?

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

So I'm reminded of one of my favorite things from my kid's childhood where there was, I think it was my oldest was probably in this three or four year old preschool class and they had, it was a gerbil, pet gerbil. And truly, like a week into school, it was pretty early. We got this email from the teacher Saying, you know, I think it was Patty the gerbil.

[Podcast Host]

Patty died.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

And Patty was very, very old. Parents were like, well, you probably didn't have to start the year with Patti dying, you know, but here we are. And they did this thing where during the rug discussions, one of the teachers would transcribe the conversation and send it to the parents. And so we kind of had a sense of what's going on in the classroom. And they transcribed the conversation about Patti dying. And it was so interesting. There was a girl in the class, it was one of my son's friends who had recently gone to her grandparents burial. The whole graveside, everything. Okay. And you heard other kids in the class saying, I think we should write.

[Podcast Host]

Patty a letter to read.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

And this girl was like, Patty's in a box in the ground. So it was like, I feel like Patty went on a long trip, you know, like. And you could hear what the kids had been told about death. And this one girl, and I love this girl, was just kind of like going with reality. Like, Patty's not gonna be able to take our call because Patty's dead and she's a gerbil.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

And you just saw it play out in this transcription. And I do think that kids are expert perceivers of their environments more than us because their life depends on noticing danger. And so they smell inconsistency, they know things don't add up. And that actually can give them so much anxiety. Right. And so much panic. Because then it's like, well, what else can I trust in the world? What else can't happen?

[David Kessler]

Correct. And I'll tell you something, parents do a big, big one on is when someone has died by suicide. When someone has died by suicide, we're as parents, not going to tell them the truth. And my only response to the parents, and I say this gently, I wonder who will someone is going to. And then they're not going to trust you. That's a hard one. It's the big secret we keep a lot of times. Which only adds to the stigma of illnesses of our mind.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yes. You know, I often think that hard truths told by a loving, trusted adult is actually one of the safest, most connecting experiences we have.

And yeah, there are. And I think this is so intergenerational, like the things nobody was ever honest or put words to for us. We don't really like your dad didn't have language. My guess is, and so some generation at some point kind of puts their hand up and they're like, I guess it's gonna Be me. And it's awkward and it's painful and you don't get it right. But you kind of pivot every generation, I think, after that.

[David Kessler]

All right, I want to ask you a question here.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Oh my goodness. I wasn't prepared for David.

[David Kessler]

So here's where there's some disagreement in the field.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Okay.

[David Kessler]

And I'm all for it.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yeah.

[David Kessler]

There's no one right way to do anything. A lot of people believe we should ask our young children if they want to go to the funeral. Here's my take. And this is where I differ with some. My take is.

And parents, when they hear this, they go, I can't force my child. And I go, wait, but you forced them to eat. You force them to go to school. We force our kids to do things all the time. I say, listen, this is one a teaching moment. I would say to the children, do you remember how we went to grandpa's birthday party.

And we sang happy birthday. Happy birthday is another way we say I love you and we're all going to gather one more time for grandpa. And we call that a funeral. And in that goodbye, it's another way we say I love you. And then I prepare the child for what they were going to see at a funeral and what it's going to be like. And it's interesting, parents sometimes want to go to their 5 year old. Do you want to go to grandpa's funeral? And the problem with that, I love the idea of giving children choices, but what happens is the child says, no, I don't want to go to the funeral. Which is their way of saying, I don't want grandpa to be dead. And so we go, okay, mommy, Daddy's not going to force you.

The poor child at 6, 7 years old goes, when's his next funeral? I want to go after all. Oh, I didn't inform you it was a once in a lifetime event. You didn't understand that at 5. So what are your thoughts on that?

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Okay, so I think there's probably something in between. So I'm not a big fan of asking kids questions that are adult decisions. That's number one. I'm also not a fan of forcing basically anything except for, I don't know, the seatbelt in the car. And part of that is I just think there's a better way to be effective. So here's what's in the middle. Cause this actually recently came up with my friend where the couple was a little bit in disagreement about if the kid should go to, you know, the grandparents funeral And I said to this friend, I was like, look, if you ask your kids, all they're actually feeling is, do I want to make mom happy or dad happy, like, or I think what happens when you ask a kid? First of all, they're like, I have no idea how to answer this question. I don't have enough information. I don't really know what a funeral is. I don't really know the impact going or not going is going to have on me. And so I'm actually just gonna try to read what you think. And so I don't actually think they're able to answer the question. It's like a five year old saying what school they wanna go to. Like as the school that gave them the best candy, they're not equipped to make that decision. Now I think where I really align with you is I think, number one, we tend to think kids can't handle things when they can handle things. Number two, kids are actually really interested in taking things that are.

Not palpable and making them palpable. Like they funerals are like, oh, grandpa died. And here it is like die.

[Podcast Host]

What does that mean?

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Kids find that very confusing. And while as adults we make something concrete. Yes, it brings up this flood of feelings of the reality. For kids especially, it's part of an arc. Like they want to have that moment of making it real. And the friend I was talking about ended up taking the kid to the funeral and graveside, like this kid wanted.

[Podcast Host]

To put dirt on over and over.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Right. Because I think it was the kid's way of saying, this is my way of understanding what's happening. So the way I would approach it is, first of all, if there's two parents or one try to get on the same page, you don't want this conversation to be a marital dispute hidden as a conversation with your kids. That's number one. Number two, I think we can say is there's something called a funeral. Let us explain what that means. And hopefully by then you've already said grandpa died. Death is when the body stops working. No, he won't come to pizza on Sunday. And I think what's also important, kids really need to hear this. I'm not dying, Mom's not dying, you're not dying.

[David Kessler]

Kids think, oh, let me tell you, let me tell you. Here's the thing. You are so right. But I want to emphasize that that's the dreaded question parents don't want. Are you going to die too someday? And the answer has to be yes. And here's what I'm doing to stay healthy. And this is why I ask you to eat your green beans and all that stuff. But parents, ooh, they don't want that question.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yeah. And I think, like, you know, I think. And we can get back to the funeral. But I think when you get that question, something that's also helpful is, and this is true, when kids are anxious about anything, instead of diving right into the content, noticing what's happening. Wow, you're a kid who has a lot of big thoughts. You're a kid with a really busy brain. That's a really scary thought. And this is a favorite line of mine. Something you always know about me is I will always give you a truthful answer, even if it's uncomfortable, because I know we can get through hard things together. And so I'm going to answer that question. But you can put a little context, that they're kind of asking you the question, and they're also telling you it's kind of scary to be a kid wondering about big things. And I agree. You have to be honest and name. This is actually one of the hardest things to sit with that fact. But when a kid, when someone dies in the family, the truth is, I will die. But kids don't understand death isn't contagious like a cold or the flu. Like, they don't know that inherently. And so they worry when something changes in my environment that affects my stability, like, what else could change? Right.

[David Kessler]

There's more.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Going to the funeral doesn't mean someone else is gonna die. They might need to hear that. So going back to the decision, I would lay it all out. I'd say, if you believe it's a helpful thing, here's what it's gonna be like. And it's another form of love. And it's helpful to have a moment where we're together. Now, if a kid is kicking and screaming, I'm definitely not gonna force my kid to go. And also part of that is if this is a funeral that's meaningful for me, and I know I'm holding a tantruming young child that just doesn't feel like it's a good grieving process for anyone.

[David Kessler]

And that's where I would bring someone trusted that if just in general, I always say, when you're at the funeral, have another trusted person so you can be present in your grief and you can have. Because the thing is, when parents are grieving for maybe their parents, you don't remember to say to the kids, let's all go and try to Go to the bathroom first because you're in your, you know, and that's why if there's your sister or someone else who like can be a little more in the moment, just to help out the kids with their questions. And the other thing is, kids are literal. Here's my story about this. There was a woman.

Her dad had died, heartbroken, getting ready for the funeral, dressing her five year old comes up, mommy, when did they cut off grandpa's head? And she's like, what? When did they cut off grandpa's head?

And mom says, I can't deal with it today. Go downstairs to your dad. Just go downstairs. She goes downstairs. Dad says, what, what, what's this? Listen, no zombies today. No cutting off heads. You can't go there, can't do it today. Goes to the funeral. Really shut down. After the funeral, they're at the reception. Luckily the aunt comes up and says to her little five year old girl, so honey, I heard you had a question earlier. Yes, but I'm not asking it anymore because it gets me in trouble. She goes, I love your questions, I'd love to hear your question. And she goes, when did I chop off grandpa's head? And she goes, wow, what a great question. Can you tell me more about that question? And the little girl says, yeah, I don't understand a headstone. How do they get the head in the stone?

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Kids are literal and they're trying to figure it out.

[David Kessler]

They're trying to figure out more than.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Trying to avoid the pain. They're actually trying to develop a story, to understand something. And that's where we hopefully come in.

[David Kessler]

Right, right.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

So I'm a big fan of leading with the truth. I think kids are capable of more than we realize. Sometimes we assume kids aren't ready when they are. Funerals can be a very concrete representation of something that without that doesn't live in a concrete way. And that's hard. And I always want to leave room for the fact that you know your family best. And for some kids it really might not be the right decision. And it doesn't have to be all or nothing. I know a lot of families who then plan a different type of, you know, mini funeral. An event, a memory gathering, a sharing of pictures and stories. And so yes, so I guess I'm like often, usually somewhere in the middle.

[David Kessler]

I know one Sunday school teacher and by the way, I always defer to the family. Like I will give them my opinions, my experience. And then their culture, their family obviously rules, you know, never our place.

So really important But I know one Sunday school teacher who, when the kids are probably about eight or nine, takes them to a small graveyard. They have a little treasure hunt. They figure things out. They got to find the oldest person, they got to find the youngest person. They learn graveyard etiquette. And then when they're about 12, she takes them to the casket room of the local funeral home, because children find caskets fascinating. And if you can process what a casket is before grandpa's in it, much better. Much better.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

So I want to end with a couple quick questions. Almost Rapid fire.

[David Kessler]

All right. Ish.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Ready? You want me to stretch or you're good?

[David Kessler]

Let's go for it.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Okay. One thing people need to understand about.

[David Kessler]

Grief is it is forever, and you can eventually remember with more love than pain.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

What's one thing you learned about yourself through a grieving process?

[David Kessler]

How controlling I am and how to have compassion for that control.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Is there a phrase, a mantra, a simple sentence that you come back to around grief that's helpful to you?

[David Kessler]

What we run from pursues us, and what we face transforms us.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Mic drop. I'm gonna force myself to have some other questions, but that just gave me the chills. What is one thing to try to never say to someone in grief?

[David Kessler]

You know, I have this loss that, like, you know, I lost my keys the other day. No comparison. No. Make sure you're at the poker game and throw your loss out there, too. Just be with the person who's in grief.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

What is one thing that's always helpful to do or say? Does someone agree?

[David Kessler]

Listen. Listen.

And love.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

This is not part of Rapid Fire, but I have a follow up.

[Podcast Host]

I'm curious.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Like, I have found that people around me have lost someone meaningful. Like, they light up when I just want to hear more about the person. Is that true for a lot of people?

[David Kessler]

Say their name. Yeah, like, say their name. Here's the thing. I will say ask about the person. Now, the thing is, like, nuance. This. Don't ask in the board meeting, but obviously ask about the person, the anniversaries, all those things. Sometimes people will say, david, I took your advice and I said their name. Or I asked and they started crying. I made them cry, and I said, no, you didn't make them cry. They were crying. You became a safe person to cry with.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Oh, that's beautiful. Okay, last question. If every parent listening could have one idea with them when they think about approaching their kid in a moment of grief, what would that idea be?

[David Kessler]

To think about it like the seasons for every spring, there's a summer. For every summer there's a fall. For every fall, there's a winter. Everything that lives dies. And we have this wonderful time in between to be with one another.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. This is a really moving and impactful conversation.

[David Kessler]

Thank you.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

This is a conversation that has left me with too many takeaways to even summarize to you right now. And I'm going to allow that to just be true for me, because I know I will listen to this over and over. I do want to share the three things that are loudest for me right now. Number one, simply grief is love.

Grief is love.

Two, what we run from pursues us. What we can face transforms us. Oh my goodness. The visual of that, the pursuit, the being willing, feeling capable enough to face that is just so profound. And then the third thing we often think when we're with someone, we say something and they start crying. I made them cry. This is so awkward. What David said will stay with me forever. That person was already crying inside. You just became a safe person, safe relationship, a safe container, so they didn't have to feel alone in that feeling anymore. Let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground.

[Podcast Host]

Place.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

A hand on your heart.

[Podcast Host]

And let's remind ourselves even as we.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Struggle on the outside, we remain good inside.

I'll see you soon.

[Podcast Host]

If you've ever muttered I'm fine through clenched teeth at a family gathering, this is for you. Look, holiday overload is real. The sugar crashes, the travel meltdowns, the questions that are really criticism like, are you really letting them eat that? And oh, is that how people are parenting their kids these days? Look, it's not that the holidays bring out the worst in us. It's that the holidays bring out everything in us. And this is why I'm hosting a special live Q and A How not to Lose it over the Holidays. But a lot of it is really going to be about what to do to feel better after we inevitably lose it over the holidays. We'll unpack what's really going on and I'll give you tools to stay sturdy when the 5pm meltdown hits yours or your kids. It's happening December 15th at 11:30am Eastern time, and it's included with your Good Inside membership. Not yet a member. Join and save your [e-mail].