← Good Inside with Dr. Becky
Good Inside with Dr. Becky
More Than Someone’s Mom with Ashley Audrain
00:31:20
What happens when motherhood collides with disappointment, longing, and the parts of ourselves we thought we had to bury? In this raw and resonant conversation, Dr. Becky sits down with The Push and The Whispers author Ashley Audrain to explore the complicated terrain of identity, self-trust, and the forms of self-preservation we rely on to survive — and stay human — in the midst of parenting. Together, they unpack what it means to hold space for all the parts of ourselves: the ones we show, the ones we silence, and the ones still trying to be heard. Because being a mother doesn’t erase who you are. It just makes the work of knowing — and owning — yourself that much more essential.
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- [00:00]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Okay, I just want to come out and tell you that we are doing a 25% off good inside Membership sale for Mother's Day. This is our biggest sale of the year and here's why. I want you to know a lot of our best members came as good Inside Podcast listeners. Because if you're listening to the podcast, what I know is you take parenting seriously, you take learning seriously, you take yourself seriously, and guess what? You're just like me. Every single thing in our membership, all of the workshops and videos can be listened to on the go, just like a podcast. So I want to make sure you know if it's been on the back of your mind, now is the perfect time to jump in and invest in yourself and your family. Head to goodinside.com or check out the Show Notes for more.
- [00:41]
Ashley Audrain
You might notice we're not in our typical studio, and that is because I am in the city of Toronto and while I was here, I just could not pass up the opportunity to talk to author Ashley Audrain. And let me just say what this conversation is not going to be about. This conversation is not along the theme of oh, motherhood.
- [01:02]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Enjoy everything moment.
- [01:05]
Ashley Audrain
Right?
- [01:06]
Unknown Speaker
Right. That is not what we will talk about.
- [01:11]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
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- [02:53]
Ashley Audrain
We're going to talk about so many different things, but let's just start kind of with you. You have these two books right here, the Push, we have the Whispers. And they're both books that like really touch on modern motherhood and kind of the dark sides of motherhood. And so what led you to start writing?
- [03:12]
Unknown Speaker
Well, thank you for having me. First of all. It's really a thrill to chat with you. So I, you know, I'd always wanted to be a writer. I was doing something completely different with my life. I was working in public relations and you know, I think I, when it comes down to what to write about, like what to spark the initiative to write, for me, that was motherhood. And I had always sort of had this fascination with motherhood long before I decided to have children myself. I remember being younger and sort of looking at the mothers around me, you know, my own mom and my aunts and the mothers of my friends and really having this awareness that like, it can't be exactly what it looks like. You know, there, it always felt like this, there was a performative aspect to it, to it. You know, even as a young girl I remember thinking that and I remember thinking, like, why do women do this? You know, why do women become mothers and why do they want to and what does it really feel like? So I'd always been quite fascinated and then, and was, and went into motherhood myself with a lot of trepidation. Wasn't sure if I was going to like it or if it would be for me or what it would be like. But you know, as, as we know, life happens and you're in a relationship and we decided it was, you know, we were going to do this, we're going to have a baby and we're lucky to be able to. And then everything, everything sort of went fine for the first, you know, fine pregnancy and fine for the first two weeks and then first two weeks after my son was born and then when he was two weeks old, he became very, very ill, like overnight almost. It was, you know, he, he, he one morning just looked and we rushed him to the emergency room at the children's hospital here in Toronto. And they, you know, took him right away and we could tell something was very Very wrong. And soon after that, he was diagnosed with, like, a serious chronic illness that eventually would. We knew he needed an organ transplant. So it was. It was of. It was. I mean, that really just rocked us, you know, like, really. As we know, motherhood to begin with is such a huge life change with so much emotion and so much going on, and then to learn two weeks in, that you have a child that is that ill, you know, and that your whole. His whole life is going to, you know, this is going to be a part of him and us and our family forever was just. Was so heavy and it was so much. And I remember at the time thinking, you know, you went through all kinds of emotions, of course, like, you know, scared and sad and worried and guilt and all of those things. But as the weeks and months sort of unfolded and we were living at the children's hospital and our lives were so. All of a sudden, so medicalized, I remember, like, really clocking this feeling of disappointment. And as mothers, the one thing we are not supposed to feel is disappointed. You know, you are only supposed to be grateful, and you are only supposed to see this as a gift. And, you know, all of those feelings were sort of taught have. And while I loved and connected with this little boy, with this baby, like, right away I was just. I was. Had such conflicting feelings about what motherhood was for me and what that was going to be like. It looked and felt nothing like what society had told me it would feel like. And so I guess he was probably around six months old, and I started to get my footing again, and we weren't at the hospital so much, and life was sort of starting to come back. And I remember thinking, I need to write my way through this. I need to write my way through these feelings and through this, you know, this whole experience. And so that I started writing. Then what became the push, what became my. My debut novel. And I think at that time I just wanted to write about the darker side of motherhood. I wanted to write a story about a woman for whom motherhood was nothing like what she expected and nothing like society told her it would be. And so while my main character, Blythe, her story is very different from mine, but. But. But all of that experience and emotion, all that feelings, I think, are in that first book about her. And I. And I really, since then, I've really just been consumed with writing about this other side of motherhood, the. The other side of what it means to be a woman and in that role and the expectations that are put upon Us. I find that all fascinating. Endlessly fascinating.
- [07:58]
Ashley Audrain
Well, let's, let's actually start there with the. With the expectations. With the expectations. What you said really struck me. You saw this version of motherhood when you were a kid and there was a part of you that called bullshit on it internally. So maybe that was, you know, that felt performative. And that I'm sure relates to kind of these general themes we all take in of, like, what it means to be a mom. Or maybe it's like, what. What is a good mom? Yeah, like, what does a good mom do? What does a good mom feel? What does a good mom think?
- [08:30]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, a couple things there. Like, I. I think I really. I think as I became a woman, like, grew from, you know, girlhood into womanhood. I think I really started to feel this pressure or this expectation that womanhood is motherhood. You know, that those two things are sort of like one, like it. I didn't have many examples in my life or I didn't see, see many women who chose not to be mothers. Like, I personally, like, in my kind of sphere. And it sort of felt like, oh, we equate these, these two things. Like, to be a good woman is. To be maternal is like you go.
- [09:04]
Ashley Audrain
From girl to mom.
- [09:05]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And there wasn't really that. Like, to me it was just, I remember, you know, the debate of whether or not to have kids or whether or not to become a mother. And it sort of felt like, well, this is just what you're supposed to do, you know, and intellectually I knew better, but emotionally I think I really was caught in that, you know, caught in that feeling of like, this is just what you do. And, and actually there's almost achievement in that. You know, as a woman, being a mother felt like a sort of achievement for me that I needed to do or have or prove. And so life sort of rolled, you know, that way. I know we've. You and I have talked earlier and I know you're doing such. Having such great conversations about this idea of the good girl. And there is this also right side, the idea of the good mother, you know, and what that is. And I think those two things really feed into. Feed into each other. You know, what is the good.
- [10:00]
Ashley Audrain
What does the good mother do? Maybe we can go back and forth because I have, I have something I, I'll share first, you know, because I was actually talking about this with friends and we were kind of all laughing about it, that you have kind of your kids class party announcement and they're like, here's the sign up for what everyone can bring. And we were kind of laughing. I'll share that. I'm like, oh, I'm gonna get paper towels. Or like the orange juice. And then on the other end there's like the homemade cupcakes or the, you know, and. And again, we're talking in extremes. There's so much nuance. Right. I think we know now, like we can feel grateful and disappointed at the same time, although society doesn't tell us that's true. And so we don't live that truth, even if our brain kind of says it to us. And again, there are moments, you know, me too. I can make the cupcakes. And there are moments every parent hopefully gives themselves permission to be like, oh, I'm going to sign up for paper towels. And the easiest thing before someone else does that.
- [11:03]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [11:03]
Ashley Audrain
But I guess to me, like the good mother. Yes. Like, shows up at the bake sale with not the paper towels or not the home, you know, not the store bought chocolate chip cookies, but like the homemade cupcakes. And I don't know, the icing probably looks really good. And none of them toppled over. I don't know, the car and like their kid didn't take a bite out of one and like put it back as like a prank or something like that. So that, that's one version I'm curious what kind of conjures up for you exactly that.
- [11:32]
Unknown Speaker
It's so funny today, even this morning, I had an email from my daughter. She's. She's in grade two. And I had an email from her teacher that went to all the parents of the class saying we're going on a field trip next week and who wants to sign up for the field trip? And I saw the email and I thought it's that. It's that you cannot get rid of that voice in your head that says the good mother would sign up for the field trip.
- [11:54]
Ashley Audrain
Yeah.
- [11:55]
Unknown Speaker
Do I want to go on the field trip? No, I don't want to go on the field trip. And my daughter is going to say to me, did you sign up for the field trip? Yeah. And do I lie to her and tell her I signed up but I didn't get picked? Or do I be honest with her or like, how to handle this? You know, it's because the reality is like, I don't want to go on that field trip.
- [12:11]
Ashley Audrain
What do you want to do that day?
- [12:12]
Unknown Speaker
I want to. I want to write. I just want to. I want to write. That is what I want. To do that day. And so do I say to her, I'm. I didn't sign up and I'm going to write that day. I'm going to work that day. And how does she feel about that? Or do I just say, ashley, just sign up for the field trip and go. You know, it's like that. And it's so funny, too. I was. My sister just had a baby, her first. And she was telling me about how, you know, the baby's only like two months old, and so she's. She's still at home and she's getting her bearings and she's tired and the sleeplessness, and she had an afternoon where all she wanted to do was just sit on the couch and watch an episode of the Housewives. That's just all she wanted to do. She's tired. You know, all we remember what those days were like. And so she said, she put the baby next to her and she had her laptop and she opened her laptop and turned on the episode of the Housewives. And of course, she deserves to sit on the couch and watch an episode of Housewives after some bomb bombs with whatever she wants. Whatever she wants. But she said the. She felt like the baby was watching her, and she felt like the worst mother sitting there having this baby watch her watch the Housewives and I. And we were laughing, but I get it. It's like from the very beginning, you feel like. Like nobody was actually judging her. The baby is two months old, but you don't feel that way. You feel like you're not doing the right thing. You're not entertaining, you're not engaging the baby. The baby is watching you continue consume this reality TV show. You're not going for a walk in the sunshine. You know, it's like from the very beginning to now, you know, these examples that we're sharing with kids that are older, it's like it's this prevalent thing you cannot get away from.
- [13:53]
Ashley Audrain
Yeah.
- [13:54]
Unknown Speaker
It's so hard. It's so hard to like, to do the thing that you want to do over the thing that you think you should do.
- [14:02]
Ashley Audrain
Yes.
- [14:07]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
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- [15:24]
Ashley Audrain
You know, recently, I actually did a poll on Instagram. Kind of just look, in any healthy relationship, I believe there. There's a balance. I don't mean 50, 50, but just that both exist. Any healthy relationship involves some amount of taking care of yourself and some amount of taking care of another person. And sometimes there's this beautiful overlap where. Wait, that's crazy. Like, what I want for myself is exactly what you want from me. And there's this beautiful synergy, and yet most times there's not. And so there's this give and take. Like, I'm not getting the thing I want because, I don't know, I'm making this up. But I've never gone on your field trip for 18 years, and today's the day I'm gonna do it. And then there's, let's say, the other extreme of I've gone on every field trip for 18 years, and I feel like I'm gonna scream and, you know, kind of go crazy and I'm totally losing myself. And today's the first day I'm gonna say, not only did I not get picked, honey, I actually didn't even sign up. Right. So those are the two extremes. But what I asked was just which comes more naturally? Right. And our Instagram, you know, is. I think it's like 92% women.
- [16:25]
Unknown Speaker
Okay.
- [16:26]
Ashley Audrain
And so I'd say, what comes more naturally? Kind of gazing in and taking care of your own needs or gazing out and taking care of someone else's needs. What. What do you. What do you. What do you imagine, though?
- [16:39]
Unknown Speaker
What was the response?
- [16:40]
Ashley Audrain
Yeah. Out of 100, what was.
- [16:42]
Unknown Speaker
Oh, like, overwhelmingly looking out? Yeah. 90. 90. Oh, wow.
- [16:48]
Ashley Audrain
Right.
- [16:48]
Unknown Speaker
Wow. Yeah.
- [16:49]
Ashley Audrain
And then this, you know, one of the things I think about with motherhood all the time and this, you know, and I was Saying this to you earlier where I think people used to say this about me and Good Inside. And I'm kind of, I hope people don't say this. They're like known for the scripts for the tantrums. I love a good script for a tantrum. I love a good script for bedtime. I love a good script for a sibling argument. We all need those tools. But yeah, I actually really hope that's not what Good inside is known for. And instead if we're known for something, it's. It would be like women saying, I feel a lot more empowered and confident, you know, And I just happened to find that through my parenting journey, you know. But one of the things that really came up through this poll. Right. Was I feel so guilty when I take care of myself. Self care feels selfish.
- [17:37]
Unknown Speaker
Yes. Yeah.
- [17:38]
Ashley Audrain
And I derive like my value, like my true value and worth by taking care of other people.
- [17:47]
Unknown Speaker
Right.
- [17:48]
Ashley Audrain
And that's all true here. But then this other thing is true as well, which I find really interesting. While we're getting that short term, like filled up kind of my old circuitry says I'm supposed to take care of everyone else and be a good girl, which means this kind of total self sacrificing moms. I never get my needs met. Which means there's going to be one moment when something very, very small happens and I completely lose my shit on everyone. And then what I always find extra unfortunate. Then it's like we end up apologizing even though to some degree it's like, wait a second.
- [18:25]
Unknown Speaker
Right.
- [18:26]
Ashley Audrain
Yeah, I'm apologizing for this moment.
- [18:28]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [18:29]
Ashley Audrain
But there's a whole ocean kind of underneath that.
- [18:33]
Unknown Speaker
Yes. Yeah, I really relate to that. I really relate to that. And it makes, as you're, as you're speaking, I'm thinking of this idea of like connected to something you mentioned earlier about like what is the good mother, you know, what, what club? And I'm interested, I'm so interested in how you would answer that question because sometimes I'll get that in when I was doing interviews for the Push or for the Whispers where, you know, those, those I, I think they're very real, realistic, you know, portraits of mothers, the mothers in those books. But, but they're not, they don't always come across as the most likable, you know, women or the most likable characters, which is something we talk about a lot in fiction, but like about women characters and female characters being likable or not. But I would often get asked like, well, what is the character A good mother. And I. And it, and I. This idea of. This phrase of the good mother, it makes me feel like, it makes me cringe. It makes me feel icky in the same way that like a good girl does, you know. And so often and I really struggled with how to answer that question in interviews for a long time or when I was talking about the book. And sometimes I would default to this idea of. Which I actually don't agree with now, but I used to sort of default to this idea of it's, it's someone who's trying their best. Are you, are you always trying your best? Well then you're a good mother. And now I actually, I don't know if I believe that anymore because I feel like sometimes you're allowed to not always be trying your best and that's okay. And I think it's taken me a long time to acknowledge that or to feel that in myself as a mother. I mean it's exactly, it's what we're talking about. Like is. Is giving your best, doing your best, bringing the nice cupcakes. Like. Yeah. Is doing your best, bringing that, you know, it's like just doing my best, going on the field. Triple. Yeah, I could, like, I could. Yeah. So it's, it's like giving yourself permission to not be doing that or to not be behaving in that way. But what do you think?
- [20:26]
Ashley Audrain
Like, so my, my first reaction is actually very similar to yours, which is like I feel like a cringe feeling.
- [20:32]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [20:32]
Ashley Audrain
Which I think whenever I notice that in myself with a question, part of me has learned to trust. Like I just, I don't really want to answer that question.
- [20:42]
Unknown Speaker
Uh huh.
- [20:43]
Ashley Audrain
I mean the only way I would answer that question is what does it mean to be a good leader? Because I think parents are leaders. I mean, I actually think, you know what, honestly, what, what draws me every day to like want to continue doing this work at Good inside is. Is actually thinking about parenthood that way. There's a lot of intention and effort and work going to understand leadership in the workplace and leadership in sports. And we've actually kind of revolutionized how we think about those two fields. Like you really shouldn't yell at your employees anymore. Not only because it's not nice, it just actually doesn't get the best out of them. And berating professional athletes isn't the way to go. We should work on their self talk and help whatever it is. Right. And yet with children it's like the last area to like humanize and I guess I think about good leaders, or what I would say is like a sturdy leader as someone who's able to be connected to themselves and connected to someone else at the same time, that you have enough boundaries that you know what you want and that not in any given moment, like a field trip, because that really limits how we define ourselves. But let's just say over the course of time, or some amount of time, a month of making that up, I, in general, kind of know what I need, and I can get my needs met. So one of the things in the push that I. That I kept thinking about is I'm kind of on this tear.
- [22:11]
Unknown Speaker
Okay.
- [22:12]
Ashley Audrain
And the most extreme version that I don't even believe in, but I'm kind of gonna say it just for impact, is there's no such thing as maternal instinct. And the reason I think that's a powerful thing to think about is I think there's just no other thing we do in life that's hard and important, like parenting. There's nothing else like that that we tell people they should do solely on instinct. Like, it would be cruel to tell doctors, you know, oh, you have an instinct for being a oncologist, maybe, like, oh, I probably should still go to medical school. Right. And I think this idea of maternal instinct is what makes so many moms feel broken and, like, a failure when things are hard.
- [22:49]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [22:50]
Ashley Audrain
Because if something should come on instinct alone, and if you're having a hard time, there's really only one explanation. Something's wrong with you or something's wrong with your kid.
- [22:58]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [22:59]
Ashley Audrain
Having said that, I definitely believe that there are these moments of maternal or paternal intuition. So there are these moments where, like, you just know. Like. And I think sometimes, you know, something's going on with your kid, and a doctor's like, they're fine, and you're like, I just know not to leave this office. Right. And that plays out. And I'm just curious how you think about instinct, about intuition, how that played out in the push, how you think about it in your own life.
- [23:25]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I. I. Yeah. And I wrote about this a lot in the whispers too, because, like, this. Just this idea of the whispers, you know, as it relates to women and mothers, is. Is that thing that you ha.
- [23:37]
Ashley Audrain
You.
- [23:37]
Unknown Speaker
You do have. I think that you really do have a knowing about things a lot of time. And I don't know if it's instinct, but it's a knowing. It's like a knowing that you feel within yourself. You know, it could be about your marriage. It could be about a friendship. It could be about your children. And I think there's this idea that, you know, a lot of times with. With that knowing or with these whispers that we have, it's like they're sort of, like, always there, and the question is more like, do you want to listen to them? Like, are you open and willing to sort of listen to it or. And a lot of that comes down to, like, how much we trust ourselves, right? And how much we've been made to feel like we can trust ourselves or not, you know? And so much of this, I think, comes. So much of it, I think, as women, comes down to childhood and the ways that as girls we were raised. And I thought about this so much because I was never someone who, like, I was not. Like, I didn't like to babysit. I was. I didn't love to, like, role play, motherhood sort of stuff. But I. But I really noticed that, like, my daughter really does, you know, it comes to her very. It comes to her more naturally than I. Than it ever did to me. I can see that in her, and I've always seen that in her. But I've also been very conscious about the way that I speak to her about that, because I think that we can often speak to young girls in a way that presumes their maternal ability or presumes their interest in motherhood. Like we might say to someone, like we might say to a little girl, like people would say to my daughter, oh, like, when you're a mom, you'll see, oh, well, when you're a mother, this. This assumption that you will be one, you know, it starts that young. Like, we get the idea in our head that young.
- [25:15]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
You're going to be such a good mom.
- [25:17]
Unknown Speaker
Such a good mom. Or I would say, you know, and I was guilty of this. I write about this in the Push because the main character experiences this. But I would even say to, like, friends who were expecting, I would say, you're going to be amazing. You're going to be a natural. You're going to be such a good mom. And like, you hear that over, over and over through your life as a young woman. And so when it doesn't necessarily feel that way, when. When it doesn't feel loud and clear for you as a mother, you do start to doubt yourself and you do think something's wrong. So I just think it starts so young. And I. I know with my daughter, I try to be so aware of that, that there can be, you know, that. And again, it comes back to what we mentioned, that tie between womanhood and motherhood and how that better be there, that it instinct better be there, you know.
- [26:00]
Ashley Audrain
Yeah. Well, look, me and you both have these deeply feeling kids. I know yours, your son, mine's my daughter. But one of the things I think about her in terms of, you know, childhood and how that relates to adulthood and kind of confidence and trust is believing your kids experience.
- [26:22]
Unknown Speaker
So true. And a lot of what sort of I'd written about in the Push with Blythe, the main character and her experience of motherhood is she is having doubts. Like she's having doubts about the way her child's behaving. Like is she noticing things like she's, she's having those, in those, those feelings, those like gut feelings about sort of what's going on in the family and the dynamic and, and you know, she certainly grew up in a way where nobody was telling her that they, that she was never having that validation of her feelings or her experience. And she very much carries that through to womanhood. And then even her partner can't do that for her. You know, even her partner never says I believe you. Yeah, he doubts her. Mother in law doubts her and everybody around her doubts her because her truth is inconvenient. You know, we were talking about this is inconvenient woman. And she, she becomes that, you know, in that book that what she believes to be true is not convenient for anybody else around her. And in fact it's uncomfortable. And so there's no validation, there's no belief. And so yeah, you can really see how as a, as a child, like just, just programming a kid to, to know what that feels like.
- [27:29]
Ashley Audrain
Yes.
- [27:30]
Unknown Speaker
Be believed. You could, you could see how. I mean my hope is that my kids carry that through and they don't have that doubt in themselves or they don't need the outside validation as much, you know, as they might.
- [27:40]
Ashley Audrain
I'm just thinking about that binary that like I don't love to think of binaries. I like to think that multiple things can be true. And it does feel like this binary, like either either I can prioritize what feels true or I can be convenient to everyone else.
- [27:58]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah.
- [27:59]
Ashley Audrain
And you often can't. You often can't do both. Right. And I think as women. Yeah. Like being convenient, pleasing, being so attentive to everyone's needs that you can meet other people's needs maybe even before they say them, which obviously requires you to completely self abandon any type of attention to your own needs. We get a lot of, we Get a lot of reinforcement for that, right?
- [28:28]
Unknown Speaker
Yes. Oh, yeah, yeah. I really feel that. I really feel that. A. I think when my kids were very, very young, I had a really hard time with that and I don't think I did practice that. I think, you know, I. My little piece of that was stealing a few hours every week to go. Right. You know, that was. We would have a. So lucky to have a babysitter come a few times a week. And instead of doing the groceries for the family or going to a workout class that I knew I needed to do or cleaning the house or whatever it was, I really tried to fiercely protect those hours to run down the street to the coffee shop with my laptop and just write because I knew that's what I wanted to do. I did not have a book deal, I was not getting paid, I was on maternity leave. Like, I. There was no financial incentive to do that. It was. I just knew that I needed to do that.
- [29:18]
Ashley Audrain
What was the feeling in you of writing? How would you describe it?
- [29:20]
Unknown Speaker
Oh, it was a real freedom. It was a real freedom, I think, and I felt most myself when I was writing. And I. I think the experience of motherhood, especially sort of in those early days of like going through all the medical stuff and everything was so. I did not feel myself. And actually, you know what's so interesting is that at the. I mean, it's. As we said, it's such a big identity shift anyways, but. And I think this is very common of most children's hospitals. But at the children's hospital, the staff who are just incredible, they cannot keep track of a child's name. And all the parents names, they just can't. It's not. It's hard. That is a hard thing. And so they know your child's name, but you are always referred to at. My son's name's Oscar, so I was always referred to as Oscar's mum. Oscar's mum, Mum, mum. And so for months in that hospital, nobody ever said my name like you, just you. And so you. It's just this real tangible, you know, erasing of kind of who you were. And. And there's such that. That to me was so symbolic of this real loss of identity at that time. But when I was writing, it was like back to me, it was just. For me, I wasn't sharing it with anybody. I never thought anybody would read this book or whatever it became. You know, it was just an exploration of my own thoughts and ideas and all of that. Now I. There's such privilege in that I really acknowledged that there was such privilege in having a babysitter and being able to go do that, you know, during the day, sometimes like a couple times a week. But. But that was. That really, I think, was like a taste for me of like, doing. Having the thing I want. Being inconvenient. You know, the convenient thing would have been to. To get the groceries done and do the laundry and help everybody else in the family. But. But as my kids have gotten older, like they're now 7 and almost 10, and I'm finding having. I am feeling. We were talking about this. Feeling a little more space.
- [31:12]
Ashley Audrain
Yes.
- [31:12]
Unknown Speaker
For that, it becomes a little easier. Yeah.
- [31:15]
Ashley Audrain
A couple things I just want to say about that. Right. So. So number one, this idea that when you do start to wonder about what you might want for yourself, or I describe it for me as like, what lights me up inside. That's the feeling. Like it feels almost explosive in, like a good way. Like, I feel. I don't know, I just feel like, lit up. Like the light bulbs go on when I'm doing something. Yeah. That really fulfills me in that way. Almost always. It does go hand in hand with inconveniencing someone else. Like, very rarely do the stars line up when everyone's gonna, like, give you an applause or be like, you go, girl. You deserve that. Just. And I just think knowing that helps. The other thing I want to say is that, yes, you and I both have older kids.
- [31:57]
Unknown Speaker
Right.
- [31:57]
Ashley Audrain
Mine are 7, 10, 13. This is so much easier now. Like, just literally the hours they're out of the house.
- [32:02]
Unknown Speaker
Yes.
- [32:02]
Ashley Audrain
You know, their ability to put on their own shoes and tie their own shoes. The fact that. Right. Like, if we don't have a snack when we're out, like, it's not kind of World War iii. Like, those things weren't true in my house years ago, and the fact that they are true now is literal. More energy and space and. And the last thing I want to say, and I think you and I probably both have heard this from women, is people say all the time, okay, babysitter or no babysitter, I have an hour to myself. Why do I feel like I'm having a panic attack?
- [32:30]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [32:30]
Ashley Audrain
I. I don't know what to do. I don't know what I would like to do. I don't know what would feel good. And this feels more anxiety producing. And so I'm just gonna deep rage. Clean my house.
- [32:40]
Unknown Speaker
Exactly.
- [32:41]
Ashley Audrain
And then yell at my kids when they're home. And maybe my partner if I have One for leaving the house so messy.
- [32:46]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Which, by the way, I only say.
- [32:48]
Ashley Audrain
That because, yeah, I used to be a pro in that pattern. Yeah.
- [32:51]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Okay.
- [32:52]
Ashley Audrain
So just a couple things about that. And this is one of the things I actually talk a lot about in our Mom Rage program, which is one of the ones I'm proudest of, which I'm going to rename because it's not just about moms, but it is this kind of feminine kind of version of ourselves we're told we have to be. And how that leads to rage is if you had a friend who was starving, literally, they hadn't eaten in 10 days, or maybe, you know, 35 years, let's say. And they were presented with a menu and they were like, I just don't.
- [33:21]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Know what to order.
- [33:23]
Ashley Audrain
I don't know. Nothing sounds good. I don't know what I would like. I don't even know what to do. I know the advice we'd give them. Just because you don't know what you want doesn't mean you shouldn't try something. And it's the process of ordering something where you'll learn over time. Like, I like that wrap. I did want a burger. I did want a salad, whatever it was. But you would never tell a starving friend, well, if you don't know what you want, just don't order something.
- [33:55]
Unknown Speaker
Right. Just don't eat.
- [33:56]
Ashley Audrain
And I think the freedom of, like, I won't know what I like until I dabble. And it might take you 30 dabbles.
- [34:03]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [34:04]
Ashley Audrain
Where you're like, I actually hate watercolor painting. Why did I even think that was me? Okay. You know, or, you know, I do like to take a little walk around, you know, the block. But I wouldn't have known that if I didn't give myself permission to try something. And I know for myself, myself, when I adopted that attitude, I just knew Rage cleaning maybe was on the menu, but I just had a feeling it wasn't my best order. Yeah. Other things were, like, gonna have a little bit more high potential.
- [34:28]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [34:29]
Ashley Audrain
And I. I feel like for anyone listening who's like, okay, Ashley, Dr. Becky, you guys have your lit up things. Like, I don't even know. That's okay. I think you and I probably post started there. But just the freedom to try without knowing if you like it.
- [34:43]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [34:43]
Ashley Audrain
I like, feel like was a big kind of step more soon.
- [34:47]
Unknown Speaker
Thank you.