B (3:24)

Yeah, so I've been researching adolescent mental health and its relationship to technology for about a decade. I published a book in 2017 called iGen, which was about Gen Z and hypothesized that, you know, that huge increase that was starting to happen in teen depression might be linked to smartphones and social media. But at the time, my kids were pretty young. My oldest was 10, my youngest was 5. I have three children, all girls. And, you know, we hadn't really had a whole lot of, oh, everybody's got a smartphone yet already. Or, you know, mom, I really want to be on social media. But that started to happen over the next few years. And so I really had this collision between my research life and then my life as a mom of now three teenagers. And that's really where this book came from. From that and giving talks to lots of parents, even giving talks at corporate events, when by the third question it was, what do I do about my kids and their technology use?

A (4:32)

What were some of the themes you were hearing over and over from parents?

B (4:35)

Oh, there were so many. So it was, when should I give my kid a smartphone? Like, what's the right age? Or gaming or social media or the phone has just taken over my kid's life. How do I set boundaries so that doesn't happen? And then when I do that, how do I avoid them having a total meltdown? That's just a sampling of some of the questions.

A (5:01)

Yeah, that question is one I get a lot too. In fact, it's kind of a general question about parenting. How do I do X without my kid having a meltdown? And I always say to parents, the reason it's hard to answer that question is actually because it's just the wrong question. The question needs to be, how can I do X and tolerate the fact that my kid is going to have a meltdown? Because they will. Because nobody likes to be told. No, no one loves it at any age. And even if your parent has your best interest in mind, long term, we all like gratification in the moment. And so a meltdown or Push pushback or talk back is often just your kid's way of saying, I don't. I'm not getting the answer that I want to get. And probably so much of quality parenting has to be those moments when you're making a decision for your kid's long term interest, knowing they're not gonna like it short term. And I think phones and tech, as you know, it's such a primary example of where we need to do that.

B (6:00)

Yeah, absolutely. And I love that philosophy of thinking long term rather than short term. Yeah, they might be upset in the moment, but, you know, it's for them in the long run. And I mentioned this in the book, when my kids are really young, someone said to me, remember, you're not raising children, you're raising adults.

A (6:17)

And I love that it's so important. I'm just closing my eyes as I think about. And again, it's hard to hold onto that every moment. And both of us, I'm sure as moms too, there's certain decisions we make. We're like, I'm optimizing the now. I just can't deal with this. I just have to make this moment pass. We all need to give ourselves a passion for those moments. But when we think about patterns, how do I set boundaries? How do I, you know, tolerate my kid being upset with me? How do I tolerate my kid being upset with other people? That is the stuff that makes for super resilient adults, Right? Adults who are able to deal with not getting their way or not having the thing they want right away, or who can deal with disappointment. That's what makes for resilience later on. And it doesn't. It doesn't just get gifted to someone at age 18.

B (7:05)

Right, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. That. That's why that parenting philosophy is so important, of having those boundaries in place. And then not only are you doing what's best for your kids, but they're learning how to live within that structure and those rules.

A (7:23)

Yeah. So this book lays out 10 different rules. Right. Let's just jump into a couple of them. So, I don't know, maybe this is an unfair question. I don't know if it's like asking you what your favorite, you know, your favorite child. But if you had to pick your favorite rule, I'm gonna give you free reign for the first one. What would that be?

B (7:43)

Oh, that one's. That's. That's easy. Number two, which is no devices in the bedroom overnight.

A (7:49)

Wait, that's my favorite. I knew we were gonna be friends. That's literally my favorite. And it's the thing I say to all parents, like starting today you can make that rule even if your kids had it in their room forever, like it just should be foundational. But you're the expert on this. So why that? Why does that one number, why does number two rise to number one?

B (8:08)

Yeah, for a bunch of reasons. I mean, so first is just how fundamental and important sleep is for both physical and mental health. And then just how much research there is about phones in the bedroom. Even if they're off, they interfere with sleep. The other thing I love about this rule is it's for everyone. It's not just for kids and teens, it's for adults of all ages. Everybody is going to sleep better if the device is out of the bedroom. And it's also, it's just, it's kind of like a no argument zone of, you know, especially with teenagers. Teenagers are going to push back. That's kind of their job. But really, you do not need that overnight when you are sleeping, you are supposed to be sleeping. And we're not talking about like the laptop when I'm doing my homework in the evening or the phone when I'm texting my friends about the math homework. No, we're talking about after lights out when you're sleeping. No argument.

A (9:05)

And what do we know from research? Like why does that affect kids sleep and probably therefore their mental health so much just for anyone who's not aware of it.

B (9:16)

Yeah. So this is the thing that really stunned me is Common Sense Media did a study where they actually tracked kids phone use and the majority were using their phones between midnight and 5am on school nights. So that shows you just how pervasive it is and that shows you immediately how big of a problem this is, that maybe it's bad enough for the phone to be there and then the brain is like, ooh, that phone's there. I wonder what's going on? And that compromising sleep, but actually waking up in the middle of the night or staying up that late on school night to be on the device, just spectacularly bad for sleep, which is not getting enough sleep is a huge risk factor for mental health issues as well as being problematic for physical health as well.

A (10:10)

And I think if we zoom out to adults like we know this, you could be going through a really hard stage in your life and feeling down or feeling very anxious. But we all know if you have multiple nights in a row where you're not sleeping, it's almost impossible to disentangle what is Exhaustion and depletion from what is my low mood. And so whenever I talk to parents and kind of ask them about phones in the bedroom, you know, when a kid is sleeping, I always say, there's no shame here. We've all done, you know, whatever we've done up to this point. No one has their kind of guidelines with their kids around phones in a place that they feel amazing about. I've never met one parent who's like, I feel great about the way I handle it. No one. So everyone's struggling. And so when parents report to me their kids spiked anxiety, or my kids not doing their homework, or their academic performance is slipping, or they think they're depressed, they're. The truth is we have to factor out the sleep first. We have to figure out the piece to kind of see what's left over. And with the phone in the room, we're just not gonna be able to separate those. You know, I often think, for me, if I knew, I don't know, like, my husband put an amazing ice cream sundae next to my bed at 2am like, every night. Like, if I knew he was doing that, like, I feel like my body would have a way to override its sleep mechanism and it would wake up for something that's very entic. Now, I think we know social media and the constant stream of information is actually more addicting than an ice cream sundae, believe it or not. Right. But if that's next to your kid, the sleeping brain. Right. It's not as if there's no kind of in shallow sleep awareness of what's right next to you. Right. It's why we all wake up when we have a big test the next day or when we have a plane to catch. Like, your mind kind of knows what's there. And in those shallow moments of sleep, you're just that much more likely to pop up. And then probably what that study shows, I'm checking my phone, all of a sudden I can't get back to sleep, or I've interrupted sleep. And so I'm in complete agreement with you. And I often tell parents I have a hard time with rigidity except for things that are really harmful. But this to me is like a rigid rule that I think is really important. Cause it's truly in the name of protecting every child. During the holidays, two things are true. I love gathering with extended family, and I love having my own space. So when it's our turn to travel to them, I turn to Airbnb. When you book a place to stay, On Airbnb, you can still get the best parts of family time. Cookie baking, board games, even matching pajamas without having to sleep on an air mattress in the basement. The homes on Airbnb give you space to retreat so you can show up for the rest of your time together as your best self. And trust me, your family will thank you for that. Plus, did you know you can host your own home on Airbnb for another family to enjoy while you're away? It's a great way to earn a little extra income to put toward gifts. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com host. So what do you say to parents who are saying, okay, well, my kid is X years old, my kid's 17. They've slept with their phone in the room for however many years. And something I hear a lot from parents, I'm curious how you think about it is like, it's too late. Like, I can't go back on this decision. The cat's out of the bag.

B (13:44)

Can't put the ball.

A (13:45)

Yeah, exactly. Can't put the genie out of the bottle. That's the better phrase. So, yeah, how do you think about that?

B (13:51)

You're the parent. You can always change. And, you know, if you got a 17 year old who's heading to college in two weeks, it might be a little bit of a different conversation, but anything short of that. Absolutely. And start now. So then at college, they'll maybe have that better habit. But, I mean, I just don't, I don't buy that argument. I think there's always something that you can do if you feel like, okay, I didn't do that. Right? I should have been doing this all along. Then change. Change it.

A (14:24)

And I just want to further empower parents listening because, and I think about it with a metaphor and then also with just something very practical. So metaphorically, right? If you think about, I don't know, I'm flying from New York to Los Angeles. And the pilot comes on and says, I'm gonna get you to Los Angeles. We're due in at 5pm you're like, all right, we're going as planned. If the pilot then says, oh, look, we're gonna be okay, but we need to make an emergency landing in Ohio. I just don't know many passengers who are like, but you promised Los Angeles. My ticket says Los Angeles. You're a liar. Like, any reasonable pastor would be like, well, yes, we both thought it was gonna be Los Angeles, but information has changed, right? And then if we laugh at that. I think the very practical thing to remember as a parent is we say to ourselves, well, I can't be inconsistent or I lose my authority when I make these changes. You're actually not being inconsistent. To me, the job of a parent is to make the best decision with the information you have available in that time. The truth is, information changes. So you might have made the decision to allow your kid to have a phone in the room and that was the best you did with the information you had at that time. Now you have new information. And so even though the decision might change on the surface, you're actually being remarkably consistent internally in that you're actually continuing to do your job even as the decision changes. And I think that that's important for parents to know. Your consistency isn't judged just based on an external decision. Consistency is actually about attunement to your values and you're being consistent by protecting your kid. Actually changing your decision on the surface, but really helping them with the job you're doing underneath.

B (16:10)

Absolutely. And I also just might. Personally, I also think it's totally fine to say I made a mistake and I'm going to try to correct it.

A (16:20)

Love that. Such. I mean, by the way, that's something we should say more often in non tech areas too. I made a mistake.

B (16:26)

Absolutely.

A (16:27)

This parenting thing is tricky. I'm doing the best I can, I learn more and I'm going to go in a different direction. The other thing I'm curious what you think is whenever I tell my kids something that I know they're not going to like to hear, I often just name that. Like I'll say, look, I'm going to tell you something, might have a couple hard days in front of us. I don't expect you to cheerlead the decision I'm about to give you and then I'm gonna change my policy with cell phones in the room. Here's why. Cause I think I owe you that. I've learned it's really disruptive for sleep. And even if you tell me you're sleeping well, I know it's just an important thing to protect your sleep space. And so even though this decision might feel like punishment, I promise you it's actually coming from a place of protection. It's okay if you don't see it that way. Probably going to be a couple tricky nights ahead and then I just know we're going to get to the other side. And just naming that in advance, you're kind of also saying to your kid, I know you're going to feel this way. I'm not going to change my decision because you feel that way. And it's really a message of sturdiness to tell your kid you're doing something to protect them and their short term protest won't change your mind. I actually think that's how we feel comforted by any leader. Right. It's kind of like if you protest the emergency landing, oh, I have to get to la. You really don't want the pilot to say, okay, fine, I won't. You know, you actually want them to stick to their guns.

B (17:45)

Yeah, yeah, we're just, we're gonna keep flying even though one of our engines is totally out. You know, it'll. Yeah, exactly. No, yeah, I love, and I love that. I mean loving but firm. We all know that's the best parenting style from decades of research.

A (18:01)

So talk to me next about parental controls because I have to tell you, this is something I think is so important and I have found my smartest, most capable friends find it extraordinarily tricky to actually put parental controls in place. And I think everyone needs a little education and pep talk about how some of this is possible.

B (18:25)

Yeah. So look, I had a hard time with it too. I think everybody, everybody I know does. And some of that is for whatever reason the device based controls. So let's say on a Mac laptop or an iPhone or the Google setup, on an Android phone or a Chromebook, they're often really hard to figure out. Even if you're educated, even if you, you know, research this stuff, even if you look it up online and do, you know, the step by step directions. There's also like kids find workarounds, which is extremely frustrating to a lot of parents. I hear that when I get parent talks all the time. So I've come to the reluctant conclusion that you have to do something else. So for a laptop that it's probably going to have to be third party parental control software that you buy. And I hated coming to that conclusion because I know not all parents are going to be able to afford that. I mean, the good news is it's for the basic package, about 60 bucks a year. It's less than a streaming service, so that helps. And then for phones that, you know, don't give them a smartphone until they're driving is now the rule in our house. And that's rule number five in the book. Before that, give them a basic phone design for kids that doesn't have those workarounds. So it basically has like built in Parental controls.

A (19:50)

And so I think one of the things you're saying, but I just want to make sure, is parental controls on a kid's smartphone. It's really hard to do it well. Like, kids will find a workaround. You know, I was talking to a.

B (20:02)

Friend about how you should try, but. Yeah, right.

A (20:05)

Where you can have certain limitations on your kid's browser, but if they're accessing a browser within Snapchat, none of those will apply. Like, that's just one example. Right. And kids can get really smart. Right. Kind of like they say, when there's a will, there's a way, and when they want to find a way around it, they often will. And so I like this two things are true. Parental controls are important, and we should try. And it's almost impossible to do them completely effectively, which is one of the reasons delaying a smartphone is almost the best parental control that there is.

B (20:42)

It is absolutely. Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, a while ago, the idea was, well, you know, if they don't have a smartphone, then the only other option is a flip phone. And, you know, you can absolutely give your kid that if all you need is for you to be able to contact them and maybe for them to send a few texts here and there. But those are. They're really hard to text on. They stand out. So then other kids will know that you don't have a regular phone. But I love the phones designed for kids because they can easily. They have a keyboard. There's Android phones with just a different platform so they can text their friends, and it doesn't stand out.

A (21:18)

And tell me a little bit about the research you've done. Kind of this. No smartphone until you're driving. Just flesh that out for us a little bit.

B (21:27)

Yeah. So my oldest is 18 now. So when she was in high school, she actually had a flip phone. And she was cool with that. She is a unique individual, and I always say that as. As a compliment. So she was. She was cool with that for quite a long time. Then she started driving. She got her driver's license a little bit after she turned 16, and so she'd print out directions like it was MapQuest from whatever it was. I remember doing this, like, 2002, but then you take a wrong turn, and then those directions don't help that much anymore. So we realized, you know, she's about 16 and a half, but four months after getting her driver's license, probably a good idea to do the smartphone. And that's when it occurred to me she didn't really need the smartphone before she started driving. There really wasn't a compelling reason to get her an Internet enabled smartphone until then. And then just the more I thought about it, the more it really did make sense that then they have the maturity. Also if they have that driver's license or they're getting around on public transportation or at least 16, then they don't have that choice of oh, you know, mom and dad are busy, they can't drive me, I really want to get together with my friends. Well, I guess it'll have to be Snapchat. They can get in the car and go see their friends.

A (22:47)

They're more mobile, they can kind of have more interactive social life once they're driving. And so the kind of the delta between interactive real social life and on live interactive social life will inherently be shorter when they have the agency and the mobility, you're saying?

B (23:05)

Yeah, exactly. And just, you know, you think about, I mean, when do kids usually get phones these days?

A (23:10)

10 or 11, is that right? I'm just curious, is it most kids are getting smartphones at age 10 or 11.

B (23:18)

Yeah. And that, that, yeah, that's, that's almost always going to be just a, you know, regular Internet enabled Android or iPhone. So that's, that's pretty young. And you think about the difference in maturity between an 11 year old and a 16 year old and it's huge.

A (23:35)

Now let me ask you one more question about that. A smartphone versus a smartphone with social media or all the apps are you seeing? Yes, they're different things but practically when most 10 or 11 year olds are getting a phone, they're also just kind of getting access to, you know, social media along with it.

B (23:56)

And that's part of the problem. Right. So if you want to keep your kids off social media as long as possible, it's really hard to do that if they have a smartphone, particularly smartphone without any parental controls. But even if you put the parental controls on like no downloading apps, which I do recommend, still it's a lot easier for them to find a workaround on that than if you give them a kid's phone where that's just, it just can't happen. You know, it doesn't allow any social media apps at all. And I have to mention this, those phones designed for kids also don't allow AI boyfriends and girlfriends because that's the new thing.

A (24:31)

Say more about that because I think that's really on parents minds right now.

B (24:35)

I know. So there are a bunch of apps out there and you know, there's there's different AI platforms, so there's the kind of standard chatbots which, you know, kids are using for homework and so on. But there are apps that are specifically designed to be an AI companion. And several of them are AI girlfriends or AI boyfriends or they'll be like sexy chat. And these are all AI bots. And if you give your 11 year old a smartphone without any controls on it, there's nothing stopping them from downloading these apps and then ending up having their first romantic relationship with a chatbot.

A (25:16)

And just to look at it, probably won't go off on this for too long. But one of the things, because parents will say to me, is that so bad? Is it nice that they have something that feels so validating or connecting? And I understand the question. I think, you know, when we fast forward for our kids and again we have this longer term vision for them. Intimate relationships, sexual, non sexual, just any type of intimate relationship is so awkward for so long. Even if it's friendship, it's hard to be vulnerable. It's hard to tell the true story. It's hard to say, I felt left out. It's hard to say, you know, I didn't like it when it's hard to have a conversation with someone you have a crush on. Like, these are really awkward things because they're new, they require you to really put yourself out there. And one of, you know, just one of the things on the list that concerns me with these early quote AI relationships is they almost give the illusion or the feeling of intimacy without any hurdle of awkwardness or discomfort. And I think that's a really dangerous thing to pair because when the younger generation feels like they can get all the benefits of intimacy without the risks and the awkwardness of vulnerability, and it will have a profound impact on their ability to have actual human relationships. And it'll even lead to a sense of entitlement and kind of almost aggressive behavior when inherently normal, real intimate relationships don't come with that same type of comfort and ease. And so I think that's a perspective I often ask parents to think about, right. Where it's not just about the short term moment of oh, I felt validated. It's really important we make sure kids see intimate relationships for what they are and not have kind of a false security that they can be achieved so easily and kind of cheaply.

B (27:10)

Yeah, absolutely. Because those chatbots, they're programmed to be affirming, that's what they do. And then you have that quote relationship, then what happens if you have a Friendship, or much less a romantic relationship with a actual flesh and blood human being who has feelings of their own and is not always going to agree.

A (27:32)

With you or think you're brilliant. Like, I mean, really, like every time I chat anything with an AI chat, it's like, oh, Becky, that's a great idea. Let me expand in it. Oh, brilliant. Oh, so smart. Like, literally, I almost feel myself getting a little frustrated at my husband. Like, do you not think I just said something brilliant? Like, where are my accolades? You know, and so, yeah, we noticed that even in adulthood. Right? And so I think that's just a really good point. You know, at good. Inside, we talk a lot about what it means to feel connected to our kids, to our partners, to our friends, especially in those everyday moments that make us feel supported. That's actually why I love using Zell. It's not just about sending money. It's about showing up for the people who matter most. Like when a friend buys pizza for the kids after soccer practice and you want to chip in, or when your sister spots you for a birthday gift and you can pay her back right away. Zelle is an easy way to send and receive money directly between enrolled bank accounts. But more than that, it's about little moments when you say, I've got you. Look for it in your banking app and when it counts, send money with Zelle. Okay. Another rule in your book, and I've seen this be so important in my house phone free zones. Tell me about that.

B (28:57)

Yeah, so just times and places when, preferably everybody in the family just has those devices put away. So family dinner is a great example of that. Or family game night where we're going to interact with each other face to face and we're not going to do this thing that social psychologists have come up with a clever name for, which is phubbing, a combination of phone and snubbing. Everybody has experienced it and hates it, and everybody does it. We don't want that. We want to have that conversation face to face, have that time carved out when we can actually be there and be present with each other.

A (29:36)

It's interesting, this transition to the school year. I've thought a lot about family dinner, and part of it is that my youngest just doesn't need to go to bed as early as he used to because he's just getting older. Right. When you have really young kids or you have a kid who needs to go to bed by seven and another kid who doesn't get home from sports until 6:30, like family dinner, don't be so hard on yourself. There's a period of time where it's really impossible, and that's okay. But I've thought about, hey, maybe my youngest can stay up a little later, and maybe my oldest can start homework a little later. And the way I thought about it in my head is just, what if the thing I optimize for on weeknights is actually family dinner together? And I can tell you it's completely changed this school year. I think it's been one of the best things our family has had happen. And the rules of family dinner aren't that rigid. We eat dinner together. There's one meal that we all have. There's no phones anywhere. And we don't have such a routine. Like sometimes we do truth and a lie about our day or rose thorn, or sometimes we just listen to each other. But the essence of it is it is a container where we are together. Exactly. And there's no phones. And it feels old school. We're just connecting and being present with each other. And it just made me think about so many things. I tell parents because I swear it's been more impactful on my relationship with my kids. Their behavior, their cooperation, their arguing with each other, less them being kinder to each other, maybe more than any of the more like, complicated strategies that we think about doing. And it's almost remarkable how powerful it is in family life because it is actually kind of a simple old school thing.

B (31:22)

Yeah, that's the charm of it. That's the beauty of it. And it's just great for that feeling of togetherness and that you have. Even if that's the only time that you all come together as a family on weeknights, then you have that.

A (31:34)

What do you say to parents? Cause I hear this who are like, honestly, it's my husband, it's my wife, who's the one, you know, like, getting my kid to put down their phone for family dinner. Like, that's manageable. But it's really hard when my partner, you know, is, oh, I have this thing come up at work or, you know, I think one of the things that's interesting is someone asks a question and we've been so programmed to say, like, let me look that up. Oh, wait, I can look that up. And then. Right. So how do you manage that?

B (32:01)

I mean, you know, just that honest conversation. And I think one thing is if you've. If let's say you have a spouse who is on call or is the contact for an elderly parent, they really do have a Compelling reason, then they should narrate what they're doing. I'm so sorry. I do have to check this really quick. And then it's not just like, oh, you guys are boring. I'm going to take out my phone. I actually think it's a great idea overall, if you do find yourself really not being able to avoid taking out the phone.

A (32:33)

Or.

B (32:33)

Yeah. If you're like, let me look it up, or we're arguing about what year did this movie come out? I get here, I'll look that up really quick, but then put it away, but say that's what you're doing. So then it's not like, oh, I'm going to text my buddy.

A (32:46)

I love that. And the other thing is just for anyone listening, it's really interesting to try to have a full conversation with multiple people without looking something up. Like, we all used to do that. It was like, what year did that come out? And everyone's like, nobody knows. Nobody knows. It's impossible to know. And you kind of wondered about it together, which is interesting. Wondering about something together is such a powerful way of connecting that sometimes short circuiting to the right answer actually diminishes connection. Oh, I think it was 1979. I'm pretty sure it was 81, because I remember this. Oh, you remember. It was like, in 81. Wow, dad, you're old. Yeah, I am. Like, whatever the conversation ends up being, it actually only happens because you haven't come up with the right answer. And. And I think about that often, how easily we can look something up, and then the conversation's over. So it is kind of just a challenge to take on. Can I have a family dinner? Breakfast, whatever it is, where we don't have a phone and you can even preview, There'll be probably a moment where everyone thinks, oh, let's just look this up online. We're just not gonna do it. It's not like we don't believe in finding out answers. We do, but once in a while, it's okay not to and just see what transpires because I do find the habit of, like, looking something up. And my family is pro a sports score. We're very into sports. All of a sudden, it's so hard to put your phone down right after. Then all of a sudden you see a notification, right? And that is the thing of the phone. Like, one tiny ding leads you into an hour of a rabbit hole. And then you come out of your phone. You're like, I can't even believe it's this Time I totally lost it. None of us are immune to that. So actually just trying to stop the beginning of that downward spiral once in a while, I think is probably the most realistic.

B (34:34)

Yeah, absolutely.

A (34:35)

Any other rule in your book? I want people to read the book. So we'll leave them with a little of a cliffhanger. But anything that you're like, oh, geez, Becky, I got to get this one in. This one also feels super important to.

B (34:45)

Talk about Rule 8 of give your kids real world freedom.

A (34:50)

Love this one.

B (34:52)

Yep. So it's not just getting off the phone, it's what are they going to do instead? And what does actually build resilience? Kids doing things on their own, yes, with their parents approval, but without their parents help. Whether that's walking or biking to school, going into a grocery store and buying something, or even at home doing your own laundry, learning how to cook a meal and doing that for your family every once in a while.

A (35:18)

I love this and I love that this is a kind of side by side point to guidelines around containing phone use. Because none of this is about trying to ruin our kids childhood. Like, just to be clear, we're not trying to just reduce things that give them pleasure. But we know, right? Playing around on your phone all the time. And the way I think about it, and it's beyond just phones, it's even young kids in screen time is, yeah, I'm not rigid about anything. But the more our kids learn that they can kind of get this easy, quick dopamine hit from something that requires no effort or struggle. That's just a dangerous combination. Like, I want my kids to know how to struggle, to know how to figure things out over time, to feel awkward, whether it's talking to someone they have a crush on or it's awkward the first time you check out at a grocery store. Like, no kid is gonna do that for the first time and be like, that's easy. The whole point is that it's awkward, it's hard. You take a step and there's no better feeling in the world than watching yourself do something you thought you couldn't do. And so I think the whole point of rule number eight is we actually want to set our kids up for more of that. Right. Like, that's actually part of our job too. And being on your phone a lot or high tech, it can actually get in the way of that. So if we're reducing one, we really want to increase the other.

B (36:44)

Yep, yep. Best, best cure for anxiety is experience. I think that really kind of sums it up.

A (36:51)

What is the pushback here? Or maybe where do you just find Parents are very anxious about this. Maybe where their own anxiety or maybe their own bad experiences kind of get in the way. What have you noticed?

B (37:03)

Yeah, so I hear that a lot. So I gave a talk over the weekend. Someone raised their hand and said, I love that thing about the real world freedom. And I know that that's good, but what if I ask my 6 year old to go into the next aisle at the grocery store to grab something and come back to me with context? We're talking about the grocery store in probably like less than a minute. What if they get kidnapped? And I think that given how vanishingly rare that is, especially you know, when they're aisle away at the grocery store. That's interesting. I think that says a lot about the anxiety that's out there among parents and in the whole society right now when for most parents this time now, when your kids are young is safer than when you were the same age.

A (37:54)

Do you ever think, I love my kid, but I really don't like them right now? Usually after those moments when they look you dead in the eye, do the thing you ask them not to do, and maybe even laugh in your face. Look, if that sounds familiar, you are not alone. And I have one of those kids too. I call this kid my resilient rebel. And let's just say this kid has definitely kept me on my toes. And what works for other kids, it totally backfires with this kid. And then you're left thinking, why is this so hard? Am I doing something wrong? Here's the truth. You're not doing something wrong. These kids just need a different approach. Earlier this year I ran a workshop called why is Everything a Battle? It was so powerful for parents, I knew we had to bring it back. And it's happening again on Wednesday, November 19th. You'll leave really understanding your kid with strategies you can use right away and relief that you know what to do the next time a power struggle starts. And you'll have that feeling back of liking your kid again and feeling close. The event is included in your GoodInside membership. If you're not a member yet, no worries, you can join and save your spot@goodinside.com defiance. That's goodinside.com defiant. I think we're talking about something really interesting psychologically in terms of how we process risk, because we know the risk to kids spending a lot of time on their phones. It's massive, it's a known risk, but the risk Isn't kind of captured in the exact moment. The appearance of the moment is like, my kid's just on their phone. Right. Versus it reminds me of a time when, you know, someone would say, I don't know, I know someone has this illness at a dinner party, should I go? And they're like, oh, knowing that I don't wanna go. But this is someone who gets on the subway all the time. And probably the chances that they're exposed to illness is, like, high. Right. So our body kind of processes risk in an interesting way, where we think letting my kid go to the aisle next door, we're thinking about something so bold as kidnapping in that moment. But the actual risk in that moment is probably less than the risk that is known from our kids. For example, spending too much time on their phone or sleeping with their phone in the room. And I'm curious how you respond to this. One of the things I often talk about with parents in terms of risk is how complete minimization of risk isn't a life strategy. Like, there's some amount of risk we have to take on to just live a worth to live a life that's worth living. Right. And where we are in that spectrum, everyone has a different amount. Right. But minimizing risk at all times for your kids, ironically, will lead to a kid who is terrified of the world. Because the message they've been given over and over is, nothing is safe for you to do. And so fast forward 10, 20 years, this is a kid who's going to be an adult who finds it very, very hard to do something independently because their body gives them a message of risks, danger, kind of all the time.

B (41:11)

Exactly. And they're scared to do things. They don't know how to do things. I teach on a college campus and I give a lot of talks on college campuses. And everywhere I go, what I hear from staff and faculty is I have more and more students who can't make even simple decisions without texting their parents. And that they come in prepared academically, but not in terms of managing their life. Even little things like they have no idea how to do laundry.

A (41:38)

And so this is like, let's make this concrete for parents, because everyone's starting point is going to be different. And sometimes if, you know, you're a parent who can feel pretty anxious about this, you can actually use that as a little bit of a compass. Like, okay, what gives me 10 out of 10 panic? The thought of my kid. I don't know. You know, let's say someone doesn't even live in New York City. I get you're like the thought of my kid going on the subway by themselves, that's, you know, too high. Okay, great, so we're not gonna start there. And then maybe a different level you check in on is my kid going to the grocery store in our town while I'm parked in the car. Okay, maybe that still feels too hard. Maybe I'm in the store with my kid, but I stay in the aisle and they go to check out by themselves. To think about this less as all or nothing and more as what is a little bit of discomfort I'm comfortable with as a parent. And I can kind of scaffold my kid from there. And then I think it becomes a lot more manageable. And I just want to say, as a parent who I think does give my kids a good amount of independence, I just want to say it's completely true. There's nothing I've seen them ever do, kind of academically earned sports even, that has given them the confidence that walking to the local store has and bringing back breakfast for the family, like, truly. Because the experience of feeling like you're part of this world, the real world, and you're an agent in that world and you can do things and you can help and you can have purpose and impact, kids actually do crave that. And they almost get a high when they feel that. And by the way, the other thing I say to parents, do you know how much easier it is when your kid makes breakfast for themselves? Like literally, we all, I can't even sit down and have coffee. Like I've learned. Hold on a second. A little bit of work helping my, my 8 year old makes a breakfast burrito for himself. He does the full thing, start to finish. And you know what I'm doing when he's doing that? I don't know, I'm messing around, I'm sitting down, I'm drinking my coffee. Right. And it's not always perfect, but the way your kid's independence gives you energy and literal time back and your resentment and depletion goes down to me, that's one of the reasons no one talks about that is still a good reason to motivate a parent to help a kid be a little bit more on that track.

B (43:55)

Absolutely. I mean, it is really is a win, win situation. Kids do those things on their own. They gain confidence. It tamps down their anxiety. It tamps down your anxiety. And then, yeah, they've done their laundry, they've cooked dinner for the family. Then you don't have to do it. I love it.

A (44:13)

All right, well, thank you for this conversation. I really got so much out of your book, and it just made me think about things in a different way, and it also just really did generate important conversations with my kids. And I want to thank you for all your years of work and research in this space. It's so important, and we're so grateful. So thank you.

B (44:33)

Thanks. Thanks for having me on.

A (44:35)

There's so many important things we talked about today, but if I had to choose one to rise to the top, it's actually Jean's second rule in the book. No phones in the bedroom at night. Now, I know a lot of us hear that, and we can spiral. Oh, does that mean I already messed up my kid? No. Something I tell myself all the time is the right time to change is always right. Now. We always say to ourselves, it's too late. I messed it up. I think a different perspective is helpful. Today is always earlier than tomorrow. Remember, you are the pilot of your family's plane. You're a sturdy leader, and you can always change a decision so it's more in line with your own values. Let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground and a hand on your heart. Let's remind ourselves even as I struggle on the outside, I remain good inside. I'll see you next time. Thank you to our sponsors, Airbnb, Hot Wheels and Zelle, for sponsoring this episode.