Parent (3:39)

That's exactly what it is. And I can say that this is something that we've confronted from the moment my firstborn was born. But the reason it's feeling stickier for me right now is because as my older daughter approaches four, I'm noticing that she's just absorbing messages, narratives, conversation to a degree that's new, right? And different. And that's been the case for the past number of months. But she's just with it in a way that she wasn't before.

Dr. Becky (4:15)

I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside.

Host (4:18)

We'll be back in a minute.

Dr. Becky (4:23)

Hey, Good Inside listeners. So sometimes with parenting, a podcast does the trick, and sometimes with parenting, we need a bit more. And I wanted to be sure you knew that we're set up to help you in those trickier times. The Good Inside membership platform is your parenting encyclopedia, coupled with a community of parents and experts you trust, which means that no matter what you're going through.

Host (4:46)

We'Ve got you covered.

Dr. Becky (4:47)

And then we take it a step further, because I know that we're people.

Host (4:51)

Who don't just want to solve a problem and return to baseline.

Dr. Becky (4:56)

We want to raise our baselines right. And this is what we really do together. Reduce triggers, learn to set boundaries, and access that sturdy leader that I know is inside all of us. It's all there when you're looking for that next step. And until then, please do check out goodinside.com podcast, scroll down to the Ask Doctor Becky section at the bottom, and let me know what you want to talk about in future podcast episodes.

Host (5:29)

So let's jump into a specific or two, because I find getting super specific allows us to zoom out after. Right. So let's zoom into something specific. We'll get into kind of the details, and then I think that'll be a good jumping off point to understand what's going on. And I promise you by the end of this conversation to give you many concrete strategies to actually use.

Parent (5:49)

Sure. Yes. So I have three kind of areas that this is appearing in, and I can just pick one. But you mentioned gender roles, so that's a big one. And that's the one that I notice the older daughter is starting to absorb more. So there's a lot of focus on appearance on how pretty she is, on how pretty both our daughters are, what they're wearing. And we are very deliberate at home about not emphasizing that as much. And we'll try to say, you know, like if my father in law says, oh like this is my most beautiful granddaughter, you know, we'll say inside and out, right? Like inside and out. And he'll be like yes, yes, inside and out. But you know, doesn't quite stick. That's one. I'll tell you the three and then you can pick which one you want to do. Two is a real discomfort with feelings. And my older daughter is a sensitive kid. She might be what you call a deeply feeling kid, I'm not sure, but she's certainly very sensitive. And we've got them to not say things like don't cry. But now they instead will just kind of do whatever she wants to get her to not cry. So the discomfort with the feeling is there. They're just doing the hyper grandparent thing of just like, let me give you whatever you want. And then the third is just a general story they tell about being good and behaving a certain way in order to be good. And so they don't speak English, they speak a different language so it doesn't quite translate in English. But essentially what they'll say to my daughter and to her cousin is, you know, don't do this or you have to do this because you should be good. So your idea of that we actually are good and we don't have to behave a certain way is not the story that they're telling.

Host (7:56)

So here's the best part of our conversation. I promise you we could dive into any of them and we're going to touch on themes and strategies for all of them. So I'm not the expert of you and your family. You are. You pick one to jump into. Can we? Any vivid, Anyone that has kind of like a vivid moment.

Parent (8:13)

Okay, let's do the last one. Cause that one to me feels like actually the one that touches everything else.

Host (8:18)

Great. So like where are you? What exactly happens? Like walk me through that kind of moment and then we're gonna go for it together.

Parent (8:27)

Okay, so I go pick up my daughter at her grandparents house. I have my baby with me and I give her a heads up. My older daughter, like, hey, we're going to get going, I'm going to help you put on your coat, it's cold outside. And she yells no. And like runs and jumps on the couch. Which like not the ideal reaction but.

Host (8:54)

Also nothing to Write home about, you know, nothing to write home about in my book. Right.

Parent (8:59)

I'm like, transitions are hard when you're three years old. She needs to exert some autonomy. It's cool. Usually she does that and you know, then we can keep it moving. And when she does that, my baby, who was nine months at the time and is learning to mimic sounds, also kind of gives out a shriek. So she's learning to imitate. And so I go over to my older daughter and I start talking to her really quietly and just telling her what's going to happen. And that usually works really well for her. But as I do that, my mother in law comes over, starts talking over me and saying to her, no, no, no, no, no, don't do that. We're not gonna do that. Because you need to be good and your sister is going to learn from whatever you're doing and you're responsible for making sure she learns. So you need to be good and she needs to be good and you need to make sure she's good. So don't do that. And kind of just like goes on and on. So it's not only about a narrative about being good, it's also a narrative about you're responsible for your sister, which is also something that I'm trying to keep separate.

Host (10:01)

Well, the responsibility and you need to be the kind of good kid role model because then if not, you're also affecting this child. So there's a, there's a lot there.

Parent (10:07)

Right.

Host (10:08)

Okay. So I have so many different ideas. I don't know if they're going to come out in the exact right order, but so be it. First of all, one of the things that strikes me in talking to you is just how intentional of a parent you are. And I feel like you're someone and you could tell me if not, I've known you for 10 minutes. Who really like notices details. Like you pick up on a lot, you notice a lot. Is that, is that true?

Parent (10:33)

Yeah, that feels true. I, you know, we talk about how my daughter, the older daughter is like by mini me and personality. And so she's a very sensitive soul and I think I'm sensitive in some of the same ways.

Host (10:46)

Yeah. And so those are all amazing things. Right. Like you're very intentional. You know, some of the things you want to do differently. You're into re parenting. So one of the things just at baseline. Right. I think that's important to know about ourselves is am I kind of going to notice all of the different things that happen? Maybe that are different from the way I want to do them? Or am I someone who's like, might not even register? Like, I can tell you me, like, my in laws say something. My parents, like, my husband might be like, becky, did you hear that? And I'll be like, I don't even, I don't even hear it. Like, and so being so intentional and cycle breaking and being so detail oriented, it's hard as an adult in a way because we feel compelled to kind of react to everything or oh, is that a big deal that they said that? So I think that's just a good baseline to appreciate about yourself. I'm very intentional and I notice a lot of these things. Like that comment from my mother in law is going to ring in my brain like for longer than maybe it would for someone else who's like, yeah, maybe she said something annoying. I don't know. I was busy getting my kid out the door. Now the other thing I want to say related to that is I think sometimes when I talk to parents who are really invested in re parenting and cycle breaking, those are like my type of, you know, my type of parents is we unconsciously have this belief that when we do things differently, like the people around us also need to do things differently for our kids to benefit from our intentional different choices. And so there's this belief like, okay, like there my mother in law goes saying all the things that maybe me or my partner inherited that we really don't want our girls to inherit. And here it is. And it feels like it's like working against like all this effort. And again, an intentionality and detail we're putting into our parenting. And I guess what I want to say, and this is not the only piece of guidance I have, there's a lot of other details, is I just want to like assure you that other people around you doing things differently than you do them. Not only what I say doesn't get in your way of cycle breaking. Like, I actually think there's a lot of ways where it enhances the impact. Okay. And here's why we don't notice the things, we don't register the things that happen everywhere. Which is part of when you're an adult, you're like, wait, my family did this thing so weird. I didn't even notice until I was 30. Right? Because if everyone did it that way. So having grandparents who say things about gender, about responsibility, about feelings, I really mean this. It gives you this amazing opportunity to highlight to your child how differently you see things, how important your perspective Is. Now, that's not to say I'm excusing harm or something like super aggressive, but because she has grandparents who actually see things differently, I just want you to consider the perspective of. You can highlight further for your kids these values that you really, really want to impart because they're no longer so passively absorbed. They're much more actively and intentionally noticed. Does that make sense?

Parent (13:59)

Yes, in theory, yes.

Host (14:01)

So then we go a step further. Cause, like. Okay, but, like, how, like, obviously the things they say impact them, too. So here's what I want you to consider. We're gonna take it out of your kids for a second, and we're gonna, you know, bring it to you and your partner. Let's say you're at, I don't know, some cocktail party with your partner, only adults. Okay. And you're kind of quiet, just like in. Is your partner a woman? A man.

Parent (14:21)

He's a man. Yeah.

Host (14:22)

Okay. So you're kind of quiet, and someone comes up to your male partner, and it's like, oh, your partner, your wife, whatever they assume you are. She's so subservient. Look at her just quietly letting you have that conversation. That's amazing. Like, and they look at you and they're like, it's so good that you've really adopted this subservient role. Okay. Then they walk away. Okay. And then you're home that night, and your husband's thinking, like, that was, like, kind of messed up. I don't believe that. Like, first of all, maybe she's not. Second of all, like, that is definitely not the thing I'd want to reinforce in her. That seems pretty messed up. Would you rather your partner be thinking about what he can say to that fellow partygoer, or would you rather your partner be thinking about what to say to you to mark that experience and the fact that he sees it differently? Sure.

Parent (15:19)

Certainly the latter. Right? Sure. Yeah.

Host (15:22)

I mean, I think I would. Right. Because we do this to bring it back. And then I want to go back to the example. We do this all the time. We hear a grandparent say something like, don't have a tantrum. Like, don't be so bad. Like, you're setting a bad example. And we're like, I have to talk to that grandparent. Like, I have to explain to them tantrums are healthy. And tantrums a sign of your mental health. And tantrums are a sign that you have a sense of your need and desire. Like, all these things that I firmly believe, too. But the truth is whether a fellow partygoer thinks that, like, a woman should be subservient. It actually doesn't matter to me that much what that person thinks. What matters to me, if I were you, is my husband saying to me after, like, wow, I don't see it that way at all. Like, that probably felt different. You know, that's not the way we think about gender in our partnership. I'm sorry that they said that that probably felt different. It is true, Becky. Some people do think that about women. And that's actually probably good for us to acknowledge and be prepared for. It's really not what we believe. And so let's bring that back to this situation of your daughter is, you know, I don't know, protesting, leaving, whatever it is. And she has a grandparent who's basically saying, be good, be good. And you're thinking, oh, my goodness, this is like everything. I don't wanna pass on to my children. This whole, like, good as really subservient, submissive, not having your own space. What might be something you say to your 4 year old in the car, on the walk home, whatever it is, to kind of be an equivalent of your partner to you or my husband to me, kind of offsetting, creating dissonance with the comment that was just said.

Parent (17:06)

So would probably be like, you know, I noticed that your grandmother said this and I want you to know, like, I think you're good no matter what you're doing.

Host (17:19)

So just pause there. Okay. I really mean this. I felt that very, like, deep in my body, like, because I think that that is so powerful for me and you right now to reflect on moments in our own childhood where probably we're like, what? Like, I don't. And like, how powerful it would have been for an adult. I mean, definitely a mom or your dad or whoever, right? Coming to you and saying, yeah, like, we didn't agree with that. Like, we do not see it that way. Right. Because you said all these things are related, so. Right. Maybe. You know, being good often is more equated in this world with, like, being female. Right. There's more pressure to kind of be good. Meaning good is really just a euphemism for don't take up space, don't have needs, don't be, quote, inconvenient. Right. So it kind of all comes together. Oh, you know what's interesting? Grandma kind of thinks about gender. Grandma kind of thinks about your reactions to my requests differently than I do. I don't know if you've noticed that, like, when you say no jacket, no jacket. She says, oh, come on, be good for your sister and your mom. And I see it differently. I see it as, oh, it's really hard to leave right now. You're kind of letting me know that. And then maybe we kind of find a fun game to make it easier. That's really different now for you, for everyone listening, okay, it's easy to be like, oh, is that like, is that something my 4 year old's gonna grasp? Because my 4 year old's not gonna look at me and saying, mom, thank you for this profound intergenerational moment. You just stopped a message and gave me a new pathway. Of course not. Okay, but. And your 4 year old might say to you, like, can I have my pretzels now? You know, But I really believe our kids at every age understand those communications. Because what you're talking about are messages that are different from the messages you believe kind of being in the ether around our kids. And you want to make sure that those aren't the loudest ones entering her body and forming her self concept and her idea about how she needs to operate in the world. And to me, when you say to someone, I don't know about that, or, huh, Grandma sees it kind of differently than I do, or grandpa reacts this way. And you know, our house just in our immediate family, we do this instead. To me, the visual I always think is like, you have the behavior and then you have the reaction. And instead of those getting paired together, you've created space. They're like two separate things. I always think like, you're creating dissonance. It's enough for someone to say, huh, huh. Just this morning, I was at my kid's school and my son, my youngest one, was clinging to me the whole time. And he's like my most independent child. He was, he's all like, not able to participate in the activity, cannot do recess. And there were very well meaning parents who were like, hey, go play with the kids. Your mom, like, is doing this activity here, go play. And all I said to him was, mom's not at school a lot, right? Like, you just want to soak up every ounce. You can play or not play, whatever you want to do. I don't really need to convince the other parents that it's okay. I don't even really need to convince my child that's okay. But I just want to put like some dissonance in like a container around those comments so they don't just kind of unconsciously, mindlessly, like pass into my kid's body.

D (20:52)

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Parent (21:51)

I have a follow up question which is about like the consistency with which my kids are going to be exposed to these messages because I completely get what you're saying and it feels not different, but it's just a question I have. Because it's not a one off comment.

Host (22:14)

Right.

Parent (22:14)

It's like maybe every week or something.

Host (22:17)

Yeah. So for sure more complicated. And look, there definitely can be a role to talking to the other adults who have influence over your children. But I think one of my main points here is that that's often the place we stress and focus and to me that's like icing on the cake. But number one, isn't a place we really have any control or power and we often miss our ability to have real impact where we can with our kids helping to digest things. Because here's the other point and then I'll get to kind of the repetition in the grandparents. Your kids are gonna go out into the world. They already are in the world and they're gonna hear a lot of stuff like when we're cycle breaking, when I'm saying to my kids too, you know, all these messages, there's a difference between your feelings and behavior. I'm not gonna let you act this way. And I love you and you're a good kid. And I kind of like sometimes that they don't just always listen to me right away because I can't imagine I want them to be 20 year olds who just like listen to authority all the time. Right. And yet they receive different messages all the time. And one of the things I think about is when they're young and in my house, like, I hope, I hope they hear all of those perspectives and they go through some of those experiences early. Because if for the first time, my daughter is 22 and she's like, mom, you know what? Like, some people think women like shouldn't take up space. I'm gonna be like, yeah, like I've known that for your 22 years. So like, I probably could have prepared you better for that. I often think about protection versus preparation. I don't wanna protect my kids from anything. I really don't. I mean, like, I wanna prepare them for things. That's not to say I don't also wanna help them become agents of change. But I don't think any of us think that those two have to be opposed. I wanted them prepare and I think one of the ways we prepare them for the world and help them be agents of change in the world is actually when they have disparate experience helping them metabolize that and understand that. Right. So again, when I think about you being a cycle breaker like your daughter, I really do believe this, like, I think will really absorb so many of the messages you have because not only you live by them, you also have repeated opportunities to say, yeah, that's not the way we did things. And if they're your in laws, maybe it's your partner who says, you know, I remember when I was your age and I used to say, I don't want to go to bed yet. Oh, I did not have a parent come in and say, yeah, it's hard to go to bed and help me kind of make that transition. I really did hear a lot of, come on, you're not being good if that's, you know, relevant. And so you're actually like telling this cycle breaking intergenerational story, which is really powerful for your kids to hear. So in terms of going back to what you said earlier, like, this is not just the grandparent visit, this is our village. Like, they are fellow caregivers, caretakers. Right. Of our children. Like, they're very, very involved.

Parent (25:18)

Yeah.

Host (25:19)

So is that the thing that makes you wonder, like, is there an effective way to talk to them given they're around that often? Is that where your mind goes or you think about it or like, are my attempts at kind of cycle breaking and reparenting, are they failing given that they're so present?

Parent (25:38)

Yeah, it's more like if we're being like you say, so intentional to do this on the home front, is it Then kind of gonna be for naught if I'm then like sending her over to their house and having her be exposed to those narratives or those stories, those messages.

Host (25:56)

Yeah. You know, there's so few questions that I can answer. Simply that one. I actually can definitely not. Like, I have zero percent worry. What I think is very confusing for kids is when they have different experiences. Sometimes it's with parents who don't live in the same home, they're divorced, different reasons. Sometimes it's, my grandparents are really involved. Sometimes it's the school I go to every day is like, I hear this a lot. People are like, I don't believe in sticker charts and good kids and bad kids and people writing boards. You know, their names on the boards. But the school does that. So talk about repetition. You're like, that's every day. And, you know, certainly there are moments where we think, I want things to be in alignment. I would love if the school is aligned. But another perspective, and I really, really do believe this is assuming there's no, like, major harm done or worry. Those are important experiences for kids to have and actually can highlight how differently their kind of family's values are. So the school example, I think that's a school your kid is at. You're not moving for different reasons. And maybe you're like, it's not horrible, it's just very different. Like, hey, that's so different. When kids struggle in the classroom, the teacher writes their name on the board and they have to stay for 15 minutes and miss 15 minutes of recess. Right. Wow, that's. I wonder how we'd handle that in our home. And then a kid really has the opportunity to say, yeah, you know what? I feel like it would go this way instead. Like, if I'm a parent, what a better way to show my child has internalized the way we do things because they notice how different those things are. For all I know, you work with that kid. They're a little older. I want to go to the administration. I want to talk to them about that. I don't think shame is the best way of motivating behavior. I want to explain that to them. Talk about being like a change maker because of how solid your family home feels, how intentional your parents are. And then you are actually prepared to notice how different things are in different environments. And I really do think about that because how cool will it be when your daughter says to your mother in law, whether I put on my jacket or not, I'm the same good kid. Like, I feel like you're gonna hear that one day and be like, boom. Like, there is no article I would have sent. There is no anything I could have said to my mother in law than watching, you know, my daughter say that. And I, and I bet that will happen. I would bet on it.

Parent (28:27)

Cool. I believe you. No, I understand what you're saying. Yeah. Does make sense to me, the idea of really internalizing it.

Host (28:35)

Yeah. And your ride's home, your ride's there. Posing questions I think that our kids aren't quite ready to answer yet is one of my favorite parenting strategies. And there's a reason for it. I think we think we ask our kids questions so we find out answers. I ask my kids questions so they learn to ask themselves those same questions. What's going to be different at grandma's house today if you say you don't like dinner? I wonder how she'll react. I wonder how we would react in our house. Oh, that's so different. Meanwhile, my kid in the backseat, my 4 year old is not like saying, oh, I'm so glad you asked me that. Here's my essay. No, but I promise you, you say things like that over time, your child's going to be going over and one day they're going to just hear in their own voice, I wonder how grandma's going to react when I, you know, when I say I really don't want to do this activity with her. Yeah, that's going to be pretty different than how my parents react. That question. The act of asking yourself a question is actually what's protective in life. Like we know this as adults. Like, I wonder what it's going to be like when I go to this dinner where I don't know anyone who knows what it's going to be like. But I promise you I'm going to be better at that dinner, having wondered that on the way than if I show up and I'm like, I don't know anyone and this is horrible. Right? If I say, yeah, it might be hard, it might be lonely, it's going to feel really different than when I have dinner with my best friends from college. Let me just get ready for that. That's protective.

Parent (30:00)

And when you are asking those questions, are you then just letting the question hang?

Host (30:04)

I do. Or I'll act it out myself. So let's get into, we'll dip into another bucket before we end. So we've kind of, we've covered, we've fixed gender, we have fixed goodness. So we fixed those.

Parent (30:18)

What was the third we Fixed those feelings.

Host (30:21)

So, feelings.

Parent (30:22)

Grandparents having a hard time with the crying?

Host (30:27)

Yep. Great. You know, I'm wondering what's gonna happen if you're doing a puzzle at grandma's and you're like, this is hard. I need help. This is hard. And I wonder. I mean. And loves acting. I wonder maybe, like, maybe if that was our house, I would say, yeah, it is hard. No, I'm not gonna finish it for you, sweetie, because I know you can do another piece or two if you want, and I believe in you. And this is just frustration. Everyone feels frustration. I wonder if grandma will. Maybe grandma will say that. No, she won't. Come on. I'd rather say Becky. Come on. No, I wonder how she'd. She might say, oh, oh, oh. No reason to cry. Here, here. That's so different. Oh, that's so different. In our house, teaching you how to manage that feeling really matters, which means not taking away from you a grandma's, you know, she thinks about feelings differently, and it's not bad. It's not better. It's different. So she'd probably finish the puzzle for you, huh? That would be really different. Anyway, sorry, I've been talking to myself for a while. What song do you want to put on? That's how I. That's how it would be. Yeah.

Parent (31:33)

Yeah.

Host (31:33)

I feel like the act of noticing and wondering in front of our children, it's really what helps them build their own kind of like, mentalization capacities. The ability to, like, kind of think about your own mind state and other mind states. That's really what you want your daughter to do. You want her to be at a different house and be able to say, like, this is different from how we do things. That's really it. That's so protective. This is different. This is not really what we do in my house. And so wondering, noticing is not even judging. Because again, like, not the way you and I necessarily would do things. But it doesn't seem like there's any active, like, harm or aggression or meanness involved. It's different, you know, different generations thinking about things differently.

Parent (32:20)

Exactly.

Host (32:21)

Because again, what's a win is one day she's gonna say, you know what we said she might say to your mother in law, but like, the day she comes back to your house and says, you know, when I'm upset, Grandma, like, says such different things than you say. You'll be like, you're so right. You really notice that? Tell me more. Maybe she's like, no, that's it. But, like, that will come just from really building that awareness. And that awareness, to me makes us less porous to anyone else's influence. It just makes us more think, okay, someone said something that's outside me. Do I want to bring that in or do I not? Because at the end of the day, that's how we really determine what influences us.

Parent (33:06)

That makes a lot of sense to me and I think speaks to the nervousness I've had, which is that, like all of these messages just infiltrate her too. And then we're like doing battle inside of her somehow to like, win the message war.

Host (33:21)

Exactly. And I think that then, like, the main thing to kind of end with, and to me it is really actionable because it actually doesn't have to be so grand, is just reminding yourself, like these noticing statements. Grandma says different things about feelings, right? Yeah, she does, huh? Right. Or you're reading a book and again, maybe it's about similarly a kid who is really, I don't know, their parents always want them to be happy. Oh, that's kind of like how grandma can be, right? Like, that's a little different. Like, we may say this instead of that. Anyway, all those little comments, I feel like each one of them, when I think about those moments, they take 18 seconds, they're not long, they add that dissonance, they add that layer of protection so it doesn't just flow in. And it has such a bigger influence than it seems. And I'm 0% concerned that your intentionality will kind of be muddied by this. I actually, I really mean this. Like, I see it being accentuated. Like, I see it as an opportunity.

Parent (34:26)

That's great. That's very reassuring. Thank you. And this is really what I was hoping for because, you know, we have our own relationship with them as adults. But I'm really thinking about her and it's exactly what you say, you know, with any adult other person you're trying to negotiate with, you have such little control. But that's especially true with your in laws.

Host (34:47)

So it really is. That's the ultimate truth. The ultimate truth. We'll end on that. Well, thank you. Definitely. I always love to know, kind of circling back how things go and how you feel in those situations, because you're gonna be able to turn your focus from, like, what do I have to do with my in laws, which can be very anxiety producing. Because you're right, it is just kind of powerless. Like, we kind of know that to, oh, wait, I can do something small with my child. That will actually have a really, really big impact. I think that will feel really empowering.

Parent (35:20)

It's true. Those individual moments are overwhelming and they catch me off guard. And in the moment afterwards, I'm always like, oh, I wish I had somehow said something, come up with the exact right thing to say in that moment to interrupt it. And it's just impossible. There's just the kids are always screaming.

Host (35:35)

It'S just not gonna happen 100%. And going back to what I said, also knowing you're so detail oriented and so intentional, right? And probably then so focused also on the moment someone says something separate, differently than how you would want to portray to your child. It also is possible your kids aren't registering when they're screaming and running around without their jacket. It might not even be as massive to them as you hear it. So I think the combination of that and knowing, yes, after a day later, you can always say that thing, hey, that was different than I would have said. That's where the impact is.

Dr. Becky (36:12)

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