C (7:46)

I think because we affirm all the feelings and. Yes. So thank you for that. That's something we've been doing with Alex with our oldest child. I think his feelings are so deep that sometimes he needs help expressing those. So, yeah, I guess it'd be helpful if you have any tips or suggestions for how we can help him voice those, because he kind of clams up as well. You know, he's having these big feelings and he's struggling through things, but when you ask him what's going on, it's even the questioning that can really make him clam up or go quiet. So one thing is helping him to articulate those things and. And express himself. But that seems joined with the confidence that he gets from doing something well. And then one of the compounding issues, I think, is that. So he's at this really interesting point where he's discovered the things that he's really into, gardening and craft. But everything you watch on TV and everyone in the playground wants to be a superhero or a football player. So it's really hard for him to put down the things that he knows he doesn't enjoy and that's not him, and to celebrate the things that is him. Those are two things that I think complicate things.

A (9:11)

Okay. So, yes, the foundation is really important for us to set, and it's really important to set with your kids because it's going to be something that you can refer back to, like, hey, remember when we were talking about that difference? I would suggest talking to him about that. And he might look at you and say, like, hey, can I have a snack now? Or like, I don't want to talk about this. That's fine. That's like, he's just saying, I'm titrating this conversation. I'm done now. So he feels very jealous of his brother. Okay. And I think even in the realm of all feelings are okay. Jealousy is one of the hardest feelings. Like, I know a lot of families are like, all feelings, okay. Like, except for jealousy. That one's kind of really difficult. Right? It's really important to normalize that. Jealousy is a feeling we have when we essentially see someone else have things we want or have things that we think we should Want. And it sounds like your middle child. Like, he is that kid. Like, he just, like, does the thing and like, he's, like, out there and. Right. So I think he sees that, and that makes sense. One of the things, just in terms of where I'd start is I'd approach Alex after you have one of these conversations and you say, we have an idea. You know, there are these moments when. And you don't have to say anything. You can even give him permission while I'm talking. If you want to look into your pillow, you can do that. Kind of giving kids permission to have some distance allows them to take in our closeness in a way. There are some times when it's really, really hard to be Pete's older brother. It's really hard to be Pete's older brother. And I think there's actually a lot of those times. And if I were you, I'd feel the same way. And I think there are moments when all of that just gets so big and so high that it just comes out and these really not nice words. And let me be clear, Alex. Like, you're a good kid. We love you. And good kids sometimes say not so nice things. And I think we understand why. And so here's one of the things we're gonna do going forward. I'm gonna have some time with you alone at 4pm Whatever works for your calendar. One of the things we're doing is just gonna be us. Not only am I gonna let you. I actually want you to say all the not nice things in your brain about Pete. Like, all of them. I could write them down. I can just listen, here are the things I'm not gonna say back to you. That's not nice. Not gonna say that. You can't say that. Not gonna say that. I'm also not gonna say, oh, but remember the time, Pete? Nope. Not gonna say that. Here are some of the things I will say back to you. I hear you. Keep going. Any other ones in there. It's actually really important that you have a space where you can say these things. And we need to do that, like, actually more proactively. I know that's kind of weird that you're saying, wait, mom or dad, like you want me to say, yes, we want you to say those things to us. And that is going to go hand in hand with something else. Let me just be clear about what that is. We're just really not going to let you say those things to Pete anymore. And I want to explain why. I know you might think that's for Pete's benefit. Like, he shouldn't hear those things. It kind of is. But, Alex, like, you're smart kids. You're going to understand this. I think it's actually equally, if not more for your benefit because you are a good kid. And we know at the end of the day, it doesn't end up feeling good to you to watch yourself say these things. And our number one job as your parent is to keep you safe. Forget Pete. Forget Pete is on the side. We're not talking about Pete to keep you safe. And so we're gonna invite these comments to us very proactively. And if you wanna get creative and you wanna say the meanest thing you've ever said will be like, wow, nine out of ten, you're. Wow, that was pretty. That was pretty extreme. Okay. And when you're with your brother, we're just not going to let those things. And what does that mean? Like, I don't know. If they start being said, we might like, oh, we might actually, like, pick you up and carry to your room and say you're going to say them to us. We might move Pete away just so he doesn't hear them and you don't hear yourself saying them. And so those are the two things we're going to do. Okay. I have more to say about that, but tell me your reaction to that intervention.

B (13:12)

I really love that because it feels like. I think what we've kind of slipped into when it's been happening is saying to him, I won't let you say that to him. That's unkind. That's not fair. And then it feels like we're sort of punishing him in a way, sort of telling him off. And so then it becomes harder for him. So I think that approach, it feels like it's really protecting him and giving him that safe space. Yeah. And just recognizing that we're seeing, I guess, seeing him and understanding that, it's really hard. I mean, he does really struggle to talk about any kind of emotions with us. But I think just hearing us say that he's got that freedom and that space and the opportunity to do it and that he's not going to get in trouble or he's not going to hold off for it, I think is very freeing.

A (14:00)

Yeah. And I'll be bold. Okay. So if this is my kid and they were like, I don't know, mom. Like, I don't want to say anything. Like, I would see myself being like, it's like always first a swim class. It's like, so annoying. I think you can do it in a way that your kid kind of knows you're not like trash talking your other child. But it's really almost like a form of play in this way. And I do think there's a lot of wisdom in the phrase, if you can't beat em, join em in a way. I think when kids say things, we often come at them and like, you can't say that. Instead of like, where can they say that, to whom can they say that and where can they not say that? Because if there's a force within him, there's this force to express the feeling through mean words. Expressing jealousy through mean words is a way of basically saying, I feel vulnerable and I would rather take that vulnerability inside me and turn it in to something more aggressive so you feel as bad as I feel. I would rather transfer my vulnerability to my brother and try to make him feel bad so I don't have to feel bad. The truth is adults do this all the time too. And one way of starting to shift that, because what we want to get him to, it just takes time. He'll get there and it takes time, is we want to be able to own our own vulnerable emotions. To be able to say, we probably don't say it to our brother at the time, but we might pull a parent aside and say like, they'd say, like, it's so annoying that he's always first. Like, I hate it. I have a hard time feeling good about myself when I'm swimming with him. That that's the best it gets. It's like, I don't think we can expect our kids to be like, when I'm swimming with my brother, who always gets first, I'm just so proud of him. I just love him so much. Nobody says that the best it gets is being able to own your own vulnerability and regulate it. Which of course is the thing that makes space for happiness for others and generosity and empathy and all those things. But that just comes later. And the first step to being able to own your own vulnerable emotions is actually containing the anger and kind of envy essentially that comes out. And by doing this, you're saying that can live here and we won't let it live here. And instead of now, these comments coming out at like inopportune times and they probably just come out as like explosions from his body, we are like kind of taming the potential volcano, which really sets the stage for so many other kind of higher order regulation strategies.

B (16:31)

Maybe this isn't something to be concerned about. But I'm just thinking, I guess my only reservation with it is if he then told his younger brother that this is what I do and that Mommy and daddy want me to say these mean things about you.

A (16:48)

Yeah. And I think this can go hand in hand with talking to Pete and being like, first of all, what I would say to him also time to time is like, I know your brother loves you. I know that deep down. And I know it's also hard for him to have a younger brother who does so many things so well. And I want to be clear, that's not your fault. We love you. It's so awesome that you do so many of these things. It is hard for your older brother, and it's not okay for him to say mean things to you about it. That is so not okay. Those are his feelings, and he can't put them on you in that way. And so I want to be honest, right now, he's having a hard time. And so we're working with him. We're going to let him say some of those things to us, not because they're true, but because sometimes we have to get things out of our body to be able to show someone care and love and affection, which is something you deserve from him. And so we are going to be doing that, and we're going to be taking even more seriously the times he says that to you. And you'll see that the impact is truly, when we do allow ourselves to kind of let out steam, we don't have that explode out of us as often. So I actually would anticipate Pete is going to be the biggest beneficiary of this. And I think also, I don't know if I'll say that I can't believe you're letting him say this to you, or, you know, I would say to my kid, I am. And look, when there's a time in your life when you're really having trouble with someone, I promise you, I'll listen to all of those things from you as well. That's something we'll do in this family. Like, you can expect me and dad, you can expect both of us to be people that you can always talk to and express yourself to so that we can help you figure out ways to express yourself effectively to those people.

C (18:31)

To me, that sounds brilliant because part of it is affirming deep feelings that he has. And obviously, it's only when you affirm something that you give them kind of permission to hold it and to explore it. So rather than Push it away and not legitimize it, not allow it. You're saying this is a real struggle. That sounds fantastic. I guess what my question would be, is there a danger that by legitimizing those thoughts and those words that that becomes a kind of narrative that they begin to spin? So I'm thinking about Alex and how he spends a lot of time in his head. So once we've said it's okay for you to say these things to us, could that develop other behavior that is not so positive?

A (19:23)

Look, I have to be honest. It's definitely like a non traditional approach. It's not like I often say this and parents are like, okay, amazing, moving on. They're like, wait, I have some concerns. To me, the places is usually useful is when parents are like all the other things we're trying to do also, like, they're clearly not working. This thing is very powerful. These feelings are forces. And so if they don't have a place to go and where we teach kids to manage them, they will just come out, right? And so I think this is something to track. And I think as parents, we can tell when something is like, oh, wait, this is like turned into something else, right? And I think they should have a time limit. I don't think she'll be there for 45 minutes. Just being like, yeah, like, keep going. Feeds the worst. We wish he was never in our family. And you don't just say it back. You know, again, like, you don't have to join in all the words, but you're kind of saying, these things need to come out of you. And like, we will be a container for you. And I'd say you, you could write them down. We'll be there for five minutes. And then I think like a kind of script or line to have that's helpful is, hey, we did this. I'll come back tomorrow. And like, this time is over today and we're gonna move to something else. Because I know there's actually so many things about you that are so interesting and important that have nothing to do with your brother. And I wanna make sure those things get airtime today. Tell me about recess. You know, tell me about that art project you were doing in school, right? And then you can like make that transition. But I also think the question speaks to something really important. The difference between hearing and kind of validating or trying to understand versus agreeing and condoning and encouraging. I think we conflate those two things a lot. You're already in the space of these words. They just happen to happen around his brother, too. But you saying, this is a place. I can hear you. This is a place where you can say these things. I think we worry that what we end up saying to our kids is, yeah, like, it's awesome to say this. You should just talk about everyone this way. I actually, I don't fear that. I really don't. I think that kids can hold the difference. I really, really do. And you can, even when you present this to him, say, because, look, I actually think that one of our big jobs is gonna be to help you feel good about yourself, which I know we're gonna help you do, while you have a brother who's kind of tricky to have as a brother. And this is where we're at right now. You have a lot of these things that you want to say. We're not going to let them be said in front of your brother for both of your sake. And so we're going to try this thing. Let's see what happens for a week. You can make it very time bound, which allows you to say after, like, whoa, that went off the rails. But I really don't think that's what it's going to be. Let's be honest. Parenting is expensive, especially around the holidays. And I hear from parents all the time that there are so many things they want to do that just don't fit into their budget, and it just feels powerless. And then once the holidays are over, parents end up feeling like they spent more than they wanted to and they feel stressed and behind. Okay, so now that the holidays are behind us, I want to share an idea for a way to make some extra income in 2025. Hosting on Airbnb. See, being an Airbnb host means you are providing another family with an amazing experience, because I know you've created your home with a family in mind, and it's a great way to earn some extra money. For all the different things you want to do this year, your home might be worth more than you think. 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For all of the different things you might want to do this year, your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com host okay, there's a couple other things I want to share. I would love one of you to kind of take on the role of telling stories to Alex about a time in your life when you were younger, when you had someone you were really jealous of. Anything a child feels alone in is more likely to be acted out in behavior. Because if our feelings are always seeking connection and our experiences are seeking connection inside our body, well, if they don't find that, then they actually have extra force and they have to come out. And so this is a way we're kind of containing it. We're giving the feelings that kind of home. But to me, and I'm gonna put this in quotes, like, did I ever tell you about the time Is just an amazing sentence starter for every parent to have in their toolbo. For example, it might sound like this. Like, did I ever tell you about the time, you know. You know, I played soccer as a kid. Well, my best friend at the time was, you know, was Raj. And Raj was, like, really nice and, like, really popular and really smart and, like, the best soccer player, and. And he was, like, a good friend to me. Oh, so annoying, right? It's like all those things. Oh, Raj. Anyway, there was this time that we were all out, and he said to me, hey, did you see that goal I scored? And do you want to know what I said back? Do I know what I said? And any kid is gonna be like, what'd you say? And you'd be like, well, do you think I said something nice? Like, oh, I saw it. That was a great goal. Do you think I said that? And the first time you do this, I could be like, probably. And this is, like. It's, like, so beautiful. It's such a powerful opportunity to be like, oh, no, no, I didn't say that. You want to guess again, or do you want me to tell you? Okay, I'll be Like, tell me. Okay, well, what I ended up saying to him was, oh, yeah, like, goal was basically open. Like, anyone could have scored. That's what I said. First of all, if nothing happens after this and just that, I promise you it'll be the most powerful moment of your child's day. Because what you're actually saying to a kid, which you can't actually say in words, you can only say through storytelling, is you're not so bad because you see me and I'm, like, the adult you revere because I'm your parent. And so you inherently believe I am good and capable. And if I essentially did the same things you did when you were younger, like, it's proof to you that you are also a good kid, who's going to figure this out? Except you can't say that. And the story says all of this. So before I go further, tell me, who could take that on? Who could really sell it? Or maybe you're like, that literally was my life. I had a friend named Raj who was an amazing, perfect person. And what do you think about that?

C (26:51)

I think either one of us could. And I think that that's a really great. A great idea, and I think you totally get that. And we'll have to have a word. Do we need. Can both of us do that?

A (27:04)

Or does it suggest that you totally can. You totally can, you know, and parents will be like, but what if I don't have the story? Am I lying to my kid? To me, it feels like any other form of play with our kids. Like, when we say, like, right now, a dog and a cat, I don't think we're like, wait, but you know I'm not a dog, right? Like, it's just play, right? So I think we can give ourselves permission. I've never met a kid who's like, I don't know if that happened. You're just telling me that story to help me feel less alone in my plate. They never say that. They just buy it. But. But there might be. If they're like, wow, that's weird. Mom told me the same thing, you know, the same day. So just, like, plan it. But, sure, you both can. And where gets to is, I can't even tell you. And this is not just in my home. This is in every single home of any family I've worked with who starts to do this. Two things. When one of my kids, he's older now, but when he was younger, used to be in these, like, massive tantrums, and he would, like, throw things and like, kind of be a little destructive. It would be, like pure containment. The only thing that would help him get out of that moment is if I started to say, oh, did I ever tell you? Wait, I cannot tell you. You do not even want to know. And he would go, what? What? Because I think he was in a spiral of feeling like a bad kid. And the idea that I could kind of match his moment immediately, like, it started to calm him down. It was so powerful. The second thing is, I promise you, Alex will start to say to you, did you ever say something like that to Raj? And meanwhile, you have to remember the names, because you'll be like, wait, who's Raj? Right? Like, my kids. It's. It's so interesting. Like, there's so many extensions of this. They'll be like, wait, did you ever steal something by accident? Or, like, take something that you knew wasn't yours but you really wanted? Or. I still remember. I. I live in New York City, right? And I remember when my daughter was scootering and. And fell and, like, skinned her knee, and she literally was like, mom, when you were six, did you ever skin your knee scootering down Broadway? And I was like, yes. Yes, I did. You know, because I think they're just saying, tell me I'm not alone.

B (28:59)

And.

A (28:59)

And that's actually the only thing I need. So I think that's gonna be so powerful. And the last idea I wanna get to kind of as a form of a boundary. But I think separating your boys in activities whenever is possible. I would not run circles around it. Like, sometimes you're like, they're in the same soccer class. And, like, if not, I have to be here for five hours. So, like, I'm just gonna, you know, deal with it. But it's really hard to expect our kid to learn how to regulate jealousy when they're flooded with jealousy. It's like, we can't learn to regulate a feeling when we're flooded by it, right? It is kind of like if someone's like, I really want to drink less alcohol. Like, we're not like, cool, let's talk about it at a bar. You're like, okay, like, well, let's talk about it, like, over coffee or something, right? So I would think about that. Like, the separation, it's not because we want to forever have this. Not in his face. Like, there is just a reality component. But while he's building up these scales skills, I think as many opportunities as you can. Again, not to completely curate his life. I don't believe in that. But here and there on the margin. You know what? We're going to do soccer separately during Alex's play day. I'm going to. And Pete can actually go to his friend's house. So, like, he's out of the house. Right. I would really lean into that thinking about it kind of like Alex is in a training pool learning some skills and he will get to the point where he can be in the big pool and then in the ocean, but. But only if he kind of works on the skills in a safer place first.

B (30:24)

Yeah, no, that makes sense. We've actually just literally today, actually. So our youngest son is going to be doing football on a Saturday and we're going to take our older boy to climbing instead. So they've got something totally separate.

A (30:39)

That's a great example of that. So look, there's obviously a million other things, but I actually think there's. I just want to like almost review it for my own sake. Right. So just remembering this, feelings versus behavior. He's gonna obviously feel jealous, and that's okay. And our goal is to help him learn to manage and regulate jealousy, which is actually what sets the foundation for those things we really want in our kids, for them to get along, for them to be happy. But if you think about the jar of emotions we all have, the distressing ones take up space from the kind of higher level ones. Unless we learn to regulate them and then they almost take up a smaller space in the jar. And then you're like, oh, look, he said something nice about his brother, but that doesn't come until like the second stage. So I think that's the foundation to think about. I really do think there's something about this dual strategy of inviting in the comments in a boundaried way and then separately, like almost telling him, and if it happens in front of your brother, here's what we're doing. And I think the key there is for both of your protection. It's actually equally as protective for him. We forget about the kid who's out of control. It's protective for him to kind of separate them. Then this kind of storytelling as a way of majorly, I say like de shaming. I actually think that's gonna be the one you lean into the most. And then what you're already doing, which is like on the margin, separating and thinking like he's learning these skills in a training pool so he can kind of quote, swim in, you know, slightly more advanced waters over time.

B (32:04)

Yeah, no, that's so helpful. Thank you.

A (32:07)

You two really like, have got this, and, you know, this is. Let me just also say, like, the change you're looking for, like, it's not gonna happen in. To me, the change we underestimate is, like, as soon as we have, like, a slightly different framework or something, and, like, maybe a few new things to try. I don't know if it feels this way to you, but I often, like, immediately feel a little better as a parent, even though nothing's changed, because, like, I just have a little more pep in my step or, like, I feel a little more hope. And I've. I have total conviction that this is gonna be something that you guys make a lot of progress on.

B (32:38)

Oh, thank you. I think the fact that we can see what he's like with his sister and everybody else, I know that that's who he really is, kind of naturally. So it's. Yeah, I think it's just giving us the tools to kind of help guide him through those very difficult feelings.

C (32:56)

And I guess we have this kind of two pronged approach at the moment. So one is trying to build up his confidence in the things that he's identified, which is quite new, and to really celebrate those. But then at the same time, all the things that we've discussed. It's so hard to. We're with my family this weekend, and my sister has four boys, and so the whole day was orientated around football. They came in for a drink, and then it was back out to play football, and they came in for cake, and then it was back out. And each time, I was just longing for the game to finish because you just knew it was. He was finding it so hard, almost steering away from those moments that could trigger some conflict and put him in a space where he doesn't feel confident, but then trying to figure out how we can kind of get him to be more confident in the things that he loves. But the challenge is that no one celebrates that apart from us and him.

A (34:00)

So I think everything we've talked about is actually critical to building Alex's confidence. I wouldn't think about it as separate. Here's why. To me, confidence isn't feeling, like the best at something. It's feeling like it's okay to be you even when you're not the best at something. And, like, confidence is really all about our relationship with our feelings. It's about feeling like it's okay to be me, even when I'm feeling this way. And I kind of trust my feelings. And I know this. And to me, the most confident people, by the Time, they're adults are just able to regulate the widest ranges of experiences. And so this is gonna sound maybe paradox, but I actually think a kid like Alex has more of an opportunity, not right away, but to build what is true confidence for the course of his lifetime than a kid like Pete. I worry more about kids who have, like, cheap wins all the time, because that's not confidence. They're actually just always used to feeling like the best. And we know how those kids do when they're 20 sometimes. And I'm not trying to worry about Pete. Don't worry, he's fine. But just to make an argument, sometimes those kids are like 25, and they're like, wait a second, I'm not really good at something. And not everyone wants to be my friend. And then there's like, emptiness because. And we've seen that. So if you think about confidence in a different way, telling him it's okay to feel jealous, we would feel annoyed about a brother like that too. To me, that's actually gonna do more to really build his confidence than saying, like, you're amazing at woodworking and, like, we love your wood shop stuff or whatever he's interested in. That, to me, feels almost like praise, which I actually think this is a whole nother conversation. I actually think praise often can almost get in our way of building confidence because it orients us to be like, what are people saying about me? As opposed to gazing in and can I learn to trust myself? And so with the football example, with the family, what I'd say is like, hey, I don't know about you, but I think it's kind of annoying that, like, everyone just, like, always plays football here. And, like, there's so many other activities in the world and there's so many other things people could do to have fun. And it's kind of annoying sometimes to be in a family that, like, they kind of just pick one, and it's kind of the one that, like, Pete likes to like extra annoying. I don't know if you feel like that, but I kind of do. That, to me, is going to be confidence building for him, because he is probably feeling that way. And when he hears you say that, he's like, wait, I can trust this feeling. It's okay to feel this feeling. My parents aren't afraid of this feeling. They don't think I'm a bad person for feeling this way. That's actually very confidence inspiring. I also think it's amazing to find activities he really loves. But I wouldn't separate Them, to me, they're really one and the same. And to me, the most confidence building moments for kids come in the hardest times. Those kids, when we kind of manage those moments in a way that we really do feel like we crushed it as a parent. Not because we made our kid happy, just because we actually feel like we like got that in that moment with them. That's going to be thing that they like in their bodies remember when they're 20, because they're going to be in a group of friends talking about something and everyone like loves talking about it, and they're going to be able to say to themselves, like, I don't even know what these people are talking about. Well, that's okay. I felt othered before. I felt different before. I'm still valuable, I'm still lovable. Like I can still be myself. I might even have the confidence to say, hey, sorry, can you slow down? I actually have no idea what you're all talking about. Can you explain that movie to me? Which to me is the essence of confidence. It's not necessarily being the one in the center of the conversation. I just would really, like bring those things together and say, this is actually all about building this confidence. We don't have to think about them separately.

C (37:12)

That's really helpful.

A (37:14)

Okay, well, you two are an absolute pleasure to talk to, and I hope you do kind of send an update on how things are going. And so in a week, if you want to say problem solved, I would appreciate getting that email. Sounds good.

C (37:27)

Timeframe, we're looking at a week.

A (37:29)

Yeah. Yeah, a week. I said it wouldn't be tomorrow, you know, but I think in seven days we can knock this out. No, no, no. Nothing's. Nothing's gonna happen in a week. Nothing's gonna change in a week. Except you guys will actually feel sturdy and confident. And I bet you have a couple moments that we have that like, I don't even know the name for us, but I feel like we have these moments with our kids that we know ladder up to the big stuff. You just feel it. I actually do predict you'll have a bunch of those moments in the next week. And I think those moments are what matters. So I think that will change.

B (37:54)

Yeah. That's amazing. Thank you.

A (37:56)

All right. Thank you guys so much.

C (37:58)

Thank you. Thank you for taking the time.

A (38:06)

Thanks for listening. To share a story or ask me a question. Go to goodinside.com podcast. You could also write me@podcastoodinside.com parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world and parents deserve resources and support so they feel empowered, confident and connected. I'm so excited to share Good Inside Membership, the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like valued parents. It's totally game changing. Good inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Newsom at Magnificent Noise. Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhill, Julia Natt and Kristen Muller. I would also like to thank Erica Belsky, Mary Panico and the rest of the Good Inside team. And one last thing before I let you go. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves, even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain Good Inside. Today's episode is in partnership with Airbnb.