Podcast Summary: Good Inside with Dr. Becky — "The Cost of Compliance for Our Kids"
Date: November 11, 2025
Host: Dr. Becky Kennedy
Guest: Dr. Sunita Sa, Professor at Cornell and Author of "The Power of No in a World that Demands Yes"

Overview

This episode centers on the hidden costs of compliance in childhood and adulthood and reframes the concept of "defiance" as a vital life skill rather than a negative trait. Dr. Becky Kennedy and Dr. Sunita Sa discuss how an overemphasis on obedience can hinder a child's ability to stand up for themselves later in life and how parents can foster healthy, thoughtful defiance in their children. The conversation blends scientific research, relatable anecdotes, practical frameworks, and actionable advice for parents striving to balance authority with connection.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rethinking Defiance and Compliance (03:15–06:30)

• Defiance as a Negative Label: Dr. Becky explains that parents regularly complain their kids are "defiant," recalling that many adults reflect “I would have never done this when I was a kid. I was terrified of my parents. I really felt this pressure to be good.”
• Sunita’s Personal Journey:
  Dr. Sa shares, “I was raised to be good... my father told me my name, Sunita, means good in Sanskrit. I did what I was told... I started to equate being obedient and compliant with being good, and defiance with being bad.”
• Cultural Pressure & Consequences:
  Sunita recounts the dangerous outcomes of habitual compliance in high-stakes fields, referencing research showing that “9 out of 10 healthcare workers don't feel comfortable speaking up when they see their colleague or a physician making a mistake. In commercial airlines, about half of crew members don’t speak up when they notice an error” (05:00).

2. The Compliance-Defiance Spectrum and Internal Signals (06:30–09:06)

• Roots of Compliance:
  Dr. Becky highlights the disconnect between obvious needs to speak up and the ingrained habit of silence: “Of course it makes sense to speak up... but if nine out of 10 people wouldn't, where does that come from?” (06:30)
• The Role of Internal Discomfort:
  Dr. Sa describes how bodily signals—“unease in their stomach, dry mouth, headache”—are often suppressed, leading individuals to conform even against better judgment.
• Insinuation Anxiety Defined:
  Dr. Sa introduces the concept: “...a distinct type of anxiety that people feel when they become concerned that saying no or rejecting somebody’s advice... indicates that they don’t trust the other person” (07:44).
  “Insinuation anxiety is kind of the reverse [of social anxiety]—I don’t want to give a negative signal to someone else” (08:25).

3. The Five Stages of Defiance (10:59–15:54)

• Stage One: Tension
  Listen for the physical/psychological signal.
• Stage Two: Acknowledgement
  Pause to wonder: “What is this really about for me?” (12:09)
• Stage Three: Vocalization
  Express discomfort to someone else. Dr. Sa: “If you tell someone... you can’t go back and say, ‘Oh i t was fine.’” (13:44)
• Stage Four: Threat of Non-Compliance
  “Just say, ‘I can’t do it.’ Stick to that.”
• Stage Five: Implementation (True Act of Defiance)
  “If you can follow through... that tension right at the beginning... dissipates. It melts away” (15:54).

4. Compliance vs. Consent (15:54–19:58)

• Clear Distinction:
  “Compliance is something that’s externally imposed... but consent requires capacity, information, understanding, freedom to say no, and true authorization. If you don’t have the freedom to say no, it’s merely compliance, not consent.” —Dr. Sunita Sa (15:54)
• Saying No as Saying Yes to Yourself:
  “When you say no to somebody, you are often saying yes to yourself.” —Dr. Becky (19:07)
• Cultural Paradox:
  Even in societies that value independence, high rates of compliance demonstrate how little we practice saying no.

5. Parenting & The Pitfalls of Raising “Good” (Compliant) Kids (20:54–26:31)

• The Perils of Raising the Compliant Child:
  “Nobody ever says, ‘My 25 year old is so compliant... I’m so proud of her.’ You want your kid, at age 25, to be able to notice their discomfort and to do something about it.” —Dr. Becky (23:59)
• The Real-World Stakes:
  Dr. Becky paints a vivid scenario where a young woman’s ability to honor internal tension becomes crucial for safety and autonomy (26:04).
• Practice Begins in Childhood:
  “I worry equally at least about the kids who I'm told, ‘that kid’s never had a tantrum, never put up a fight.’... They need that practice.” —Dr. Becky (25:01)
• Balancing the Family Dynamic:
  Becky discusses how families often label one child as “the defiant one” and another as “the good/compliant one,” but both ends of the spectrum can be unhealthy long-term. The ideal is to help each child have access to both skills (29:19).

6. Practical Steps to Cultivate Defiance (30:11–31:39)

• Defiance Is a Practice, Not a Personality:
  “It’s not loud, it’s not aggressive... it’s a skill. We can learn to defy in a way that’s natural to us,” —Dr. Sa (30:26)
• Start Small—Build the Muscle:
  • Practice saying “Let me get back to you” instead of immediate compliance.
  • Use “What do you mean by that?” as a gentle pushback (31:36).
  • Even asking for the right coffee order is a small but worthwhile act of self-advocacy.

7. Modeling Defiance: Personal Stories (34:01–39:18)

• Becky’s Coffee Story (34:01–35:42):
  She recounts asking for the coffee order she wanted and the strong response from listeners: “It was one of those moments... the number of DMs let me know I hit something.”
• Dr. Sa’s Mother’s Story (35:42–39:18):
  Her mother, usually compliant and quiet, confronts a group of boys harassing them: “She looked the boys directly in the eye and said, ‘What do you mean?’... I thought of compliance and defiance as two binaries—now I know it’s a scale. Even the most compliant person can surprise us... She was quietly practicing.”

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:15 — The stigma of “defiance”; parents’ frustration
• 05:00 — The “costs” of compliance: medical and aviation examples
• 07:44 — Insinuation anxiety explained
• 10:59 — The five stages of defiance introduced
• 15:54 — Compliance vs. consent; elements of informed consent
• 19:58 — Why it’s difficult for adults to say “no”; cultural context
• 23:59 — Why compliant kids aren’t always a parenting win
• 26:04 — The importance of listening to bodily signals; real-world stakes
• 29:19 — Parenting for balance between compliance and defiance
• 30:26 — Defiance is a skill, not a personality trait
• 31:36 — Practical starter scripts for adults and kids
• 34:01 — Becky’s coffee shop anecdote
• 35:42 — Sunita’s mother’s act of everyday defiance
• 39:25 — Closing reflections: fostering real long-term strengths in our children

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Sometimes it is bad to be so good.” —Dr. Sunita Sa [05:30]
• “Insinuation anxiety is kind of the reverse [of social anxiety] — I don’t want to give a negative signal to someone else.” —Dr. Sunita Sa [08:25]
• "Buy time. Buy time. I would say have one line in your head—'Let me get back to you.'" —Dr. Becky Kennedy [14:54]
• “If you don’t have the freedom to say no, then it’s merely compliance, not consent.” —Dr. Sunita Sa [15:54]
• “When you say no to somebody, you are often saying yes to yourself.” —Dr. Becky Kennedy [19:07]
• "Nobody ever says, 'My 25-year-old is so compliant... I'm so proud of her.' ...You want your kid, at age 25, to notice discomfort and do something about it." —Dr. Becky Kennedy [23:59]
• “Defiance isn’t a personality, it’s a skill set. We can choose to use it or not.” —Dr. Sunita Sa [39:18]

Actionable Takeaways

• Normalize Defiance: Redefine defiance as a necessary skill for healthy boundaries, safety, and authenticity, not simply as misbehavior.
• Teach and Model Scripts: Equip kids and yourself with simple scripts for pushing back, like “Let me think about it” or “What do you mean by that?”
• Practice Small Acts: Build the capacity for self-advocacy with low-stakes moments, such as correcting a food order.
• Balance the Family Dynamic: Watch out for overvaluing compliance or defiance in one child—encourage both skills as needed.
• Reflect on Your Own Compliance: Notice where you automatically conform out of habit or insinuation anxiety, and start applying these micro-defiant acts yourself.

Tone & Language

The conversation is supportive, empathetic, reflective, and laced with moments of humor and pointed honesty. Both Dr. Becky and Dr. Sunita blend personal vulnerability, academic rigor, and practical wisdom for overwhelmed parents who want better for both themselves and their kids.

Summary Conclusion:
This episode challenges parents (and adults in general) to rethink what it means to be "good," advocating for flexibility between compliance and defiance. Listeners are encouraged to see "no" as a positive tool, begin building the skills of thoughtful dissent themselves, and foster this in their children from early on—ultimately equipping the next generation to live with more authenticity, courage, and resilience.