The Cost of Compliance for Our Kids

Summary

Podcast Summary: Good Inside with Dr. Becky — "The Cost of Compliance for Our Kids"
Date: November 11, 2025
Host: Dr. Becky Kennedy
Guest: Dr. Sunita Sa, Professor at Cornell and Author of "The Power of No in a World that Demands Yes"

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Overview

This episode centers on the hidden costs of compliance in childhood and adulthood and reframes the concept of "defiance" as a vital life skill rather than a negative trait. Dr. Becky Kennedy and Dr. Sunita Sa discuss how an overemphasis on obedience can hinder a child's ability to stand up for themselves later in life and how parents can foster healthy, thoughtful defiance in their children. The conversation blends scientific research, relatable anecdotes, practical frameworks, and actionable advice for parents striving to balance authority with connection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rethinking Defiance and Compliance (03:15–06:30)

• Defiance as a Negative Label: Dr. Becky explains that parents regularly complain their kids are "defiant," recalling that many adults reflect “I would have never done this when I was a kid. I was terrified of my parents. I really felt this pressure to be good.”
• Sunita’s Personal Journey:
  Dr. Sa shares, “I was raised to be good... my father told me my name, Sunita, means good in Sanskrit. I did what I was told... I started to equate being obedient and compliant with being good, and defiance with being bad.”
• Cultural Pressure & Consequences:
  Sunita recounts the dangerous outcomes of habitual compliance in high-stakes fields, referencing research showing that “9 out of 10 healthcare workers don't feel comfortable speaking up when they see their colleague or a physician making a mistake. In commercial airlines, about half of crew members don’t speak up when they notice an error” (05:00).

2. The Compliance-Defiance Spectrum and Internal Signals (06:30–09:06)

• Roots of Compliance:
  Dr. Becky highlights the disconnect between obvious needs to speak up and the ingrained habit of silence: “Of course it makes sense to speak up... but if nine out of 10 people wouldn't, where does that come from?” (06:30)
• The Role of Internal Discomfort:
  Dr. Sa describes how bodily signals—“unease in their stomach, dry mouth, headache”—are often suppressed, leading individuals to conform even against better judgment.
• Insinuation Anxiety Defined:
  Dr. Sa introduces the concept: “...a distinct type of anxiety that people feel when they become concerned that saying no or rejecting somebody’s advice... indicates that they don’t trust the other person” (07:44).
  “Insinuation anxiety is kind of the reverse [of social anxiety]—I don’t want to give a negative signal to someone else” (08:25).

3. The Five Stages of Defiance (10:59–15:54)

• Stage One: Tension
  Listen for the physical/psychological signal.
• Stage Two: Acknowledgement
  Pause to wonder: “What is this really about for me?” (12:09)
• Stage Three: Vocalization
  Express discomfort to someone else. Dr. Sa: “If you tell someone... you can’t go back and say, ‘Oh i t was fine.’” (13:44)
• Stage Four: Threat of Non-Compliance
  “Just say, ‘I can’t do it.’ Stick to that.”
• Stage Five: Implementation (True Act of Defiance)
  “If you can follow through... that tension right at the beginning... dissipates. It melts away” (15:54).

4. Compliance vs. Consent (15:54–19:58)

• Clear Distinction:
  “Compliance is something that’s externally imposed... but consent requires capacity, information, understanding, freedom to say no, and true authorization. If you don’t have the freedom to say no, it’s merely compliance, not consent.” —Dr. Sunita Sa (15:54)
• Saying No as Saying Yes to Yourself:
  “When you say no to somebody, you are often saying yes to yourself.” —Dr. Becky (19:07)
• Cultural Paradox:
  Even in societies that value independence, high rates of compliance demonstrate how little we practice saying no.

5. Parenting & The Pitfalls of Raising “Good” (Compliant) Kids (20:54–26:31)

• The Perils of Raising the Compliant Child:
  “Nobody ever says, ‘My 25 year old is so compliant... I’m so proud of her.’ You want your kid, at age 25, to be able to notice their discomfort and to do something about it.” —Dr. Becky (23:59)
• The Real-World Stakes:
  Dr. Becky paints a vivid scenario where a young woman’s ability to honor internal tension becomes crucial for safety and autonomy (26:04).
• Practice Begins in Childhood:
  “I worry equally at least about the kids who I'm told, ‘that kid’s never had a tantrum, never put up a fight.’... They need that practice.” —Dr. Becky (25:01)
• Balancing the Family Dynamic:
  Becky discusses how families often label one child as “the defiant one” and another as “the good/compliant one,” but both ends of the spectrum can be unhealthy long-term. The ideal is to help each child have access to both skills (29:19).

6. Practical Steps to Cultivate Defiance (30:11–31:39)

• Defiance Is a Practice, Not a Personality:
  “It’s not loud, it’s not aggressive... it’s a skill. We can learn to defy in a way that’s natural to us,” —Dr. Sa (30:26)
• Start Small—Build the Muscle:
  • Practice saying “Let me get back to you” instead of immediate compliance.
  • Use “What do you mean by that?” as a gentle pushback (31:36).
  • Even asking for the right coffee order is a small but worthwhile act of self-advocacy.

7. Modeling Defiance: Personal Stories (34:01–39:18)

• Becky’s Coffee Story (34:01–35:42):
  She recounts asking for the coffee order she wanted and the strong response from listeners: “It was one of those moments... the number of DMs let me know I hit something.”
• Dr. Sa’s Mother’s Story (35:42–39:18):
  Her mother, usually compliant and quiet, confronts a group of boys harassing them: “She looked the boys directly in the eye and said, ‘What do you mean?’... I thought of compliance and defiance as two binaries—now I know it’s a scale. Even the most compliant person can surprise us... She was quietly practicing.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:15 — The stigma of “defiance”; parents’ frustration
• 05:00 — The “costs” of compliance: medical and aviation examples
• 07:44 — Insinuation anxiety explained
• 10:59 — The five stages of defiance introduced
• 15:54 — Compliance vs. consent; elements of informed consent
• 19:58 — Why it’s difficult for adults to say “no”; cultural context
• 23:59 — Why compliant kids aren’t always a parenting win
• 26:04 — The importance of listening to bodily signals; real-world stakes
• 29:19 — Parenting for balance between compliance and defiance
• 30:26 — Defiance is a skill, not a personality trait
• 31:36 — Practical starter scripts for adults and kids
• 34:01 — Becky’s coffee shop anecdote
• 35:42 — Sunita’s mother’s act of everyday defiance
• 39:25 — Closing reflections: fostering real long-term strengths in our children

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Sometimes it is bad to be so good.” —Dr. Sunita Sa [05:30]
• “Insinuation anxiety is kind of the reverse [of social anxiety] — I don’t want to give a negative signal to someone else.” —Dr. Sunita Sa [08:25]
• "Buy time. Buy time. I would say have one line in your head—'Let me get back to you.'" —Dr. Becky Kennedy [14:54]
• “If you don’t have the freedom to say no, then it’s merely compliance, not consent.” —Dr. Sunita Sa [15:54]
• “When you say no to somebody, you are often saying yes to yourself.” —Dr. Becky Kennedy [19:07]
• "Nobody ever says, 'My 25-year-old is so compliant... I'm so proud of her.' ...You want your kid, at age 25, to notice discomfort and do something about it." —Dr. Becky Kennedy [23:59]
• “Defiance isn’t a personality, it’s a skill set. We can choose to use it or not.” —Dr. Sunita Sa [39:18]

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Actionable Takeaways

• Normalize Defiance: Redefine defiance as a necessary skill for healthy boundaries, safety, and authenticity, not simply as misbehavior.
• Teach and Model Scripts: Equip kids and yourself with simple scripts for pushing back, like “Let me think about it” or “What do you mean by that?”
• Practice Small Acts: Build the capacity for self-advocacy with low-stakes moments, such as correcting a food order.
• Balance the Family Dynamic: Watch out for overvaluing compliance or defiance in one child—encourage both skills as needed.
• Reflect on Your Own Compliance: Notice where you automatically conform out of habit or insinuation anxiety, and start applying these micro-defiant acts yourself.

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Tone & Language

The conversation is supportive, empathetic, reflective, and laced with moments of humor and pointed honesty. Both Dr. Becky and Dr. Sunita blend personal vulnerability, academic rigor, and practical wisdom for overwhelmed parents who want better for both themselves and their kids.

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Summary Conclusion:
This episode challenges parents (and adults in general) to rethink what it means to be "good," advocating for flexibility between compliance and defiance. Listeners are encouraged to see "no" as a positive tool, begin building the skills of thoughtful dissent themselves, and foster this in their children from early on—ultimately equipping the next generation to live with more authenticity, courage, and resilience.

Transcript

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

If you're a parent, you know this moment.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

You look at your kid after making.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

A simple request and they just say no. Or they escalate and say, you can't make me. You're just trying to brush their teeth. You're just trying to leave the playground. You're just trying to have a simple transition moment of getting out the door. And instead it is a power struggle. And then maybe you start telling other people, I have a defiant kid. My kid is so defiant. I love thinking about this word defiance. And look, as a parent of three, I know these moments. They are so inconvenient. They are so exhausting. And I think a lot of us also think, I would have never done this when I was a kid. I was terrified of my parents. I really felt this pressure to be good. You're going to love this conversation and it's going to turn on its head so many of the things that we tend to accept as true. I'm talking today with Dr. Sunita Sa. She's a professor at Cornell and she wrote the book the Power of no in a World that Demands yes. Together we rethink defiance and compliance, and we give you some totally new tips that you're going to find really helpful in your everyday life. I'm Dr. Becky and this is good inside. We'll be back right after this.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Foreign.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

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[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

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[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Hi, Sunita.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Hi, Becky. It's wonderful to be here.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

So happy to have you. And honestly, it's just so rare that someone I'm talking to has written a book about the word, essentially that I think I'm asked about most from parents, right? Oh, my kid is so defiant. I have such a defiant kid. Why is my kid having this need to defy me all the times? And so I'm just so excited to take so much of what you wrote here. And I know it's not just about the parenting world, but there's so much overlap in how you think about defiance. And so tell me, let's just start with the title, Defy. You wrote a whole book about this and you really redefine what it means too, or give us a new framework. So let's jump in there.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Sure. Absolutely. Well, I mean, I've been so fascinated by what that single powerful word defy, means for, like, so long. And it was really because of the way that I grew up, which might sort of account for why I went into research into this in this particular area. And, like, I was raised to be good. Like, in fact, my father, when I was little, he told me that my name, Sunita, means good in Sanskrit. So I mainly lived up to that. I did what I was told. I went to school, I did all my homework. I did what was expected of me. I even had my hair cut the way my parents wanted me to. Right. I was good. And these were the messages that I received, not just from parents, but from teachers, the community. What does good mean? It means doing as you're told, listening to other people, pleasing other people, being polite obedience. And so I really started to equate being obedient and compliant with being good and defiance with being bad. And we know that defiance has this negative connotation. So the parents that are writing to you that you're basically saying, I don't want my kid to defy. And as children, we get so much training in compliance that essentially I had a masterclass in compliance growing up. And then when I got older, I began to realize as I delved into the Research that there's some real problems with this. I mean, in my own life, I did what was expected of me. I became a physician. That was my first career career, largely due to expectations. And I'm now an organizational psychologist, which I love. And if you look at the research, sometimes it is bad to be so good. So in medicine, for example, there was a survey that found that on average, 9 out of 10 healthcare workers don't feel comfortable speaking up when they see their colleague or a physician making a mistake. Oh, so they're situations you want people to be speaking up, you know? Another survey of over 1700 crew members on a commercial airline. About half of them don't feel comfortable saying something when they see a mistake. So it can be these life and death decisions. But even if they're not, if you're constantly doing what other people tell you to do all the time, and you don't develop the skill for defiance, it can create some real problems as you become older.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

There's so many directions I think we can go in, but I think those are such amazing practical examples of where anyone listening would say, please speak up, I'm sorry, there's an issue on the plane, I'm sorry, you see someone making a mistake on another human's body, speak up. That makes sense to speak up. But I think what's so powerful to kind of zoom out on is, well, of course it makes sense to speak up when someone's making a medical mistake. But if nine out of 10 people wouldn't, where does that come from? Because it must mean that for so many of the early years of our life, it was adaptive to kind of smile and go along with things and almost ignore a signal in your body that was probably saying, exactly, I'm not so sure about this, I'm not so sure about this. And that kind of difference between an internal signal and what you imagine or really is the demand of your environment leads us to kind of get into those habits, even play them out in a life or death situation.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Yeah, absolutely. That internal signal, first of all, is really important. I actually call it. That's the stage one of defiance.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Right.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

And it can manifest in different ways in people. Like, so some people will feel sort of unease in their stomach, some people will feel a dry mouth, other people will get a headache. So it's different for every person, but it is a signal. And what's unfortunate is that a lot of people try to sweep it away, that, oh, this isn't worth my anxiety, it's not worth my doubt. The other person probably knows better. I'm not going to say anything in this situation or I'm not going to do anything. I also discovered in my research a powerful psychological force I call insinuation anxiety. And this is a distinct type of anxiety that people feel when they become concerned or worried that saying no or rejecting somebody's advice and not following their suggestion indicates that they don't trust the other person. So it sort of implies that the other person is untrustworthy, incompetent, or there's something wrong. They don't want to give a negative evaluation to someone else. So when we think about anxiety and all the things that we feel when we have anxiety, a lot of people might be familiar with social anxiety or performance anxiety, where you're worried about how you are going to be judged. Insinuation anxiety is kind of the reverse. It's like, I don't want to give a negative signal to someone else.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Huh. So is insinuation anxiety like, I don't want this doctor to think I don't trust them. I don't want this doctor to think that I don't think they're a good doctor, or I'm thinking parenting. Someone asked me to be on a committee, let's say I just know I have no time to do this. I don't want them. I don't want to make it seem like the committee's unimportant. And then does that lead us to shut down that first feeling?

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

It leads us to comply. It keeps us silent, and it leads us silent and compliant when we would rather say no. And so it is a very powerful force. And you know it is there for a reason. We want harmonious relationships. We don't want to be implying that the person next to you is stupid and considerate. You know, your boss doesn't know better. We don't want to be sort of sending those signals out too much. But sometimes if we only think about the person that's standing right in front of us, we miss the bigger picture.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

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[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

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[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Let's just say that it is. Someone asked me, hey, do you want to be on this committee? We are really looking for another person. And the first signal in my body is, becky, like, you already feel run to the ground. You have this other committee you're doing. Or maybe I'm not, but whatever. The season of my life does not allow for this. And I have this first stage. Like you say, the first stage is tension.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Yes.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

And then maybe through this insinuation, anxiety, I think, oh, Sunita, if I say no to her, is gonna think that I think her committee's stupid or something like that.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Or unimportant.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Right. Or unimportant. What's really interesting about that is I'm taking my signal in my body and kind of making it about what you might think.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Right, right.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Instead of taking my signal in my body and thinking about what it means in terms of what I think.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Exactly.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Exactly.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Right. So we're missing, like, the stage two of defiance is really acknowledging that tension to ourselves and figuring out, what does it mean? What does it mean for me? You know, why am I actually experiencing the tension? What is the conflict between what I really want to do and what is expected of me?

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

And so let's just go with this example. The acknowledgement might be, hold on a second. I have this gut feeling, or I have this butterfly feeling. Whatever it is, let me take a moment and just wonder what it's about. And maybe my brain's saying, sunita's gonna be so mad and she's not gonna.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Wanna be friends with you.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

And, you know, I don't wanna make her think her committee's unimportant. But then because I know these steps, I say, hold on. What does this just mean? What might be going on for me? Because I'm probably not having the signal in my body, because I think Sunita's committee is unimportant. Like, no, it might have something to do with me. And then I might think, I wonder if this signal is telling me this is just not the season to commit to that, you know, committee.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Right. It could be you feeling overwhelmed that day, and you've been feeling overwhelmed maybe for a long time, and this is not something you can take on and do well. Or maybe you just don't have the skill set for it.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Right.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

It could be. That's a fantastic committee. And so. And so would be really great on it wouldn't be great for me. So there's a lot of reasons why we could feel that way. And I do want to distinguish between, like just having an emotional reaction to it, to sort of feeling this tension between what somebody else expects and what you think is the right thing to do. So that aspect of really holding up that tension to the light rather than a knee jerk reaction, but thinking about why is it that I feel so uncomfortable, what is this telling me? And so really connecting with what it means for you.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yeah. Okay. I like to complete things. So I'm counting the stages of Defiance so far. So there's tension, there's acknowledgement.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Yes, to yourself. The third stage, which is a really critical stage, is vocalizing to somebody else. And the reason this is a critical stage is because the research shows if you can get to this stage, you're more likely to get to the end stage of Defiance. Right. And there's. There are a couple of reasons for that. The main one is if you tell someone else that you're not comfortable with this, then you can't go back in time and say, oh, yeah, actually it was fine. I think I could do it. Right. You have too much cognitive dissonance. So that's why it's really great to say something. And then also, if you say something, you've changed the environment around you. Even if it's something like, I'm not comfortable with this, or could you tell me more or ask for some clarifying questions, you can still be in a subservient position at this point. You could just have some of these scripts in your back pocket. Like, I'm not entirely sure. Let me get back to you. You know, taking a pause is really great, but just getting to that point where you're not complying immediately. You're just basically saying, tell me more, tell me more about this, or I'm not quite comfortable with this.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

It's one of the first things I say when parents tell me. I'm always saying yes to things when I know internally I want to say no. And like, what should I say in the moment? And I would say to expect yourself to go from saying yes immediately to having some beautiful script as a way of saying no. Like, no human can do that. Buy time. Buy time. I'm going to just one line in your head. Let me get back to you. Thanks for asking. Let me get back to you. Because time can allow us to do.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Some of that and physical presence. If you can take some time away from the person in front of you, then you can see the bigger picture. You can see how it's going to affect you, your family, other people that you might not even know. So rather than a nurse just thinking about how the physician's going to react, you can think about the patient and the larger environment. So there's a lot of things with having both physical distance or maybe even psychological distance. If you can't get away to get yourself that distance from the person asking, I love that.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Okay, and then what are the final stages?

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

So stage three is that vocalization. Stage four is that this is now where you're going to say you can't comply. It's your threat of non compliance is just say, I can't do it. And so just sticking to that rather than being, like, burdened down to going back to stages. I used to hover between stages two and three a lot in my life, you know, and then try and dismiss the tension and go back and forth. So it's not always linear. You can jump as well, like if you're defying for someone else. Definitely. I learned to defy a lot when it was for my son because I found it easier to take responsibility in those, you know, and not maybe follow completely the doctor's order. Maybe I'll get a second opinion, you know, I would like to wait. I don't want to jump into that. So sometimes it's easier to defy for someone else. But stage four is that threat of non compliance. And then stage five is the final act of defiance, is implementing it. And what's wonderful about that stage is that if you can get to that stage and actually follow through that tension that I mentioned right at the beginning in stage one, that dissipates, it melts away. So it's actually more joyful, more honest, it's more authentic. You are living in alignment with who you are and your values and what you can manage. And so it's really important to learn that skill, because if we don't, if we think of defiance, if we think of saying no as being such a negative aspect of ourselves, we are just going to continue to comply and in the end, let other people down. It's not always the safe option. So let me talk about, like, some of the different definitions a little bit. So when I talk about compliance, like, what do we mean by compliance? Compliance is something that's externally imposed. So something that somebody else wants, an order, a suggestion, or maybe even society's expectations, right it's something that's coming from outside us that we're complying with, having done medicine. I love contrasting compliance and consent and how they are actually different, because in medicine we have informed consent. And for informed consent, you need five elements. So first of all, capacity. You need to have the competence to do it, so you're not under the influence of alcohol or drugs, you're not too sick. Then you need to have knowledge, so you need to be given information about the decision. So you need to be informed, but it's not enough just to get the information, you need to understand it. So that's the third element, a thorough understanding of the risks, the benefits, the alternatives. And then the fourth element is the freedom to say no. Because if you don't have the freedom to say no, then it's merely compliance is not consent. And if you have those four elements, then the fifth one is your authorization, which is either what I call a true yes, which is consent, or it's your true no, which is defiance. And both of those things, consent, dissent, or defiance, are something that's internally driven, something that's a thoroughly considered decision based on your own values.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

And it's really helpful and I think just for people listening. Right. And we'll talk about kids next, that when you say no to somebody.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Right.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

You are often saying yes to yourself. Like, I know I can't commit to this committee. And so I guess I'm saying no to Sunita, but I'm also really saying yes to myself, because if I say yes to Sunita, in some ways I'm acting in defiance, or I'm saying no to something that actually feels really important to me. And I think so many of us were brought up, especially as girls, to do that all the time. We are so well practiced. We are expert in saying no to the things that we might want for ourselves. And we are so good at noticing what the world wants of us. And this framework tries to, you know, help us take steps to rebalance that.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Absolutely. I mean, this is why I really got involved in this research, is why do we find it so difficult to say no? And especially like a lot of my experiments I've done in the us Also in the uk. The uk. So they're two countries that pride themselves on independence and free thinking and agency. And yet, even in really simple experiments, people comply at shockingly high rates. So when I talk about distance in private, they choose what they truly want, but in public, under pressure, they're doing something very different, and the results are really quite dramatic. As to why are we doing this. And a lot of the time, it's that we haven't been trained in how to defy. We find it awkward, we find it uncomfortable, we find it confrontational. And so if we haven't learned how to do it, we end up saying yes a lot. We end up saying either being silent, being compliant, and getting ourselves in situations that we would rather not be in.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

I think that's right. And it is something I talk to a lot of parents about, because a lot of families, especially with multiple kids, right, they'll say, like, this is kind of my defiant problem kid. And some version of, why can't this kid be more similar to his brother, his sister, who's always so good, Right? And I think this idea of, like, especially a good girl. I was that too, growing up. No longer watch out. But all we're really saying is it's like a coded way of saying compliant to external expectations.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Right, Exactly. I mean, what do we mean by good? Oh, she does. She listens to her parents so well, and she did everything that I asked her to, and, you know, she's looking after other people. She's. All of these things. Mean. Good means compliant.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Yes.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

And what does it mean to be defiant? Well, you know, yeah, that could also be good. If everybody else is being mean to a particular child, are you going to be the one that says something? You know, especially like children, they care about kindness. They care about fairness. It's not like they don't know their values and what's important to them. So how can they feel more comfortable in those situations to act the way that they would hope to?

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

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[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

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[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

The plan?

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

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[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

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[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

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[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

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[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

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[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

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[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

It's so easy to think about it in terms of extremes. Do we want our kids sometimes to take care of other people?

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Of course.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Do we want our kids to listen to us sometimes? Yes, we do. Right. And so no one has to be one extreme or the other. But I think what's interesting, and you and I are both kind of stories of this is we worry a lot more about our kids who are defiant than our kids who are good and easy.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Right?

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Right.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

But one of the things I always say to parents is I don't know any parent of older kids who says, oh, my 25 year old daughter, she is so compliant. She listens to everything people say. I'm so proud of her. Like nobody's ever said that you're like, oh, that's so creepy. What? You don't even want that in your 25 year old. Her boss put her in an uncomfortable situation and, and she said, no problem, like obvious. We'd want our kid at age 25 to be able to notice their discomfort and to say, I trust this enough to do something about it. But that ability isn't gifted to someone at age 25. It's not like, here you have it, now that you're out of my house, here you go. Right. And so sometimes, and I don't want to be fear mongering here, but sometimes I worry, I don't want to say more about, but I worry equally at least about the kids who I'm told that kid's never had a tantrum. That kid's never put up a fight about a decision. Never.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Right.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

That you want your kid even if it's inconvenient when they're younger and we both know as moms it is, but.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

They need that practice.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Yes, they do. And they sometimes need to be encouraged to state what they want.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Same one.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

So if we think, if we're always telling them to obey us, how can they actually then determine what it is that they truly want? And if they're always disregarding the tension, then what do they learn? I'm going to swallow this in the future. Something seems wrong here, but I'm just going to hold my tongue. I'm going to just maybe shake my head a little, but go along with what everybody else is doing. And we teach our kids to be maybe scared of strangers. But as you're saying, what if it's your boss. What if it's your friends? At what point are you going to be saying, that's not me, I would rather not do that.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

And I think this is where some of those inconveniences of childhood pay off in spades.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Right.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Because I like to paint a vivid picture. This is the reality. Like imagine you're now, I don't know, 20 year old daughter, let's say, in college, and she's at a bar. Someone's approaching her and they're having a nice conversation, maybe a little flirtatious. And then things kind of quote, escalate, like, hey, come home with me.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Right.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

She doesn't know this person. It feels exciting. And let's say there's this tension in her body, like, I don't know about this.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Yes.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

And one of two circuits activate. One is, I've gotten really, really good at having tension and turning it off and instead looking to someone else and doing what they seem to want of me. Or I have learned to tune into that tension, honor it enough to be curious about it.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Yes.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

And prioritize some of that feeling, even if it might be in opposition with what someone wants of me. And when parents say to me, like, are you saying that the childhood experiences someone has, like, that relates to that moment? And I was like, I would bet my life on it, like 100%.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

It's the same circuit, it's the same. And you don't even have to be waiting till you're 25, right. To have these negative. I was speaking to a teacher, a middle school teacher that was telling me all about the 8th graders went on a trip the year before. They had problems with what was being said on group chats. And so they did some of the exercises in my book. What's the line that you wouldn't cross? Or what's the time that you backed it in a way that you wish you hadn't? And it was all about like, you know, I didn't speak up in this group chat, even though it got really terrible. The mob mentality that happened when we went on the school trip. I was part of that. I got into serious trouble. And it's. Why, why are these things happening? Because it's difficult to speak up and say something in situations if you've never been taught how to do it.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

That's exactly right. And so, you know, I think about my own kids. I have three kids and one of them is just more oriented than the others to kind of notice the environment and kind of what do other people Want of me. We actually had this conversation the other day, and we were talking about that, and just having an honest conversation, that could be an amazing thing. And that is a superpower in a way. And all of our superpowers can end up working against us too, because as we tune into what people want of us so much, we can start to really tune out to the signals our body is giving us. And I think that's my kid. If I think about all of them, where that kid does need a little prompting, you know, no, you don't have to switch seats at the table right now, even though your sibling is whining, oh, I wanted that seat.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

No.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Like, by the way, if it was a different kid who's very tuned into themselves, I'd be like, we're gonna switch your seat. Okay? But this kid. This kid needs help from me helping keep that seat, you know, defying a little bit. Right.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

And all of those things. And the way that we sort of parent for compliance and parent for defiance is really important because those lessons stay with us and we remember them, and we remember how our parents act too.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Yes, that's exactly right. And I think one of the things that, you know, one of my favorite programs in our app is about these strong willed, classically labeled defiant kids. And they often do happen in families where there is this kind of very good, compliant. There's like a binary. And I think one of the things that's interesting is that one of the things the defiant kids often need to, in some moments at least, be a little more cooperative in a way that often works for them. Cause sometimes the defiance works against them. Is the other sibling to take up a little bit more of the defiant space, you know? And it's almost this paradoxical intervention of him. He's like, wait, the problem in the family isn't the defiant kid. It's the compliant kid. And neither one has to be the problem. But the problem is that your kids are so extreme. You have 100% defiance and 100% compliance. Let's. Let's rejigger. Let's rejigger the percentages.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Yes.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

I'd love to get practical. I know there's people listening here. What's like, in your starter pack? Like, let's say there's a starter pack for people even in adulthood, not just with their kids, but probably for themselves. Maybe, like, little acts of defiance. Like, how can you start?

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

How can you start? Well, the very first thing I would say is have a mindset shift of what we think about what defiance is. Like, we often think about defiance as being loud, bold, and aggressive for rule breakers. And if we start thinking like that, you know, I was like as a child. As a child and even, like, as a young adult, like, you know, defiance is for other people. It's not for. It's not for me. And that is really thinking of defiance as a personality trait. And it's actually just a skill, and it's one that we can learn. So having this mindset shift, we can defy in a way that's natural to us. That represents a skill. It doesn't have to be loud. There's ways to be quietly defiant where we can live in alignment with our values without having to be aggressive about it. So having that mindset shift, it's not loud, it's not aggressive, but. And also, it's not just for the extraordinary or the superhuman. You know, it's not out of reach. It's actually available, and it's necessary for all of us to learn. It's a skill. It's not something that is a trait. It's a practice, not a personality.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

So someone doesn't have to say, okay, I guess I have to be a defiant person now.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Like, no, you can choose to be compliant one day and defiant the next day. So that is really, really important. And then how do we get there? The practical aspect, it's practice. Because we have been so practiced in being obedient. Kids are in the thick of being obedient, and we have really strengthened those neural pathways. How can we obedient be obedient? How can we be compliant? So now what do we have to do? We can start off with those small acts of defiance, and we don't need to get it right every single time. We can just start rehearsing. So when you get asked to be on that committee, you can just say, I'm going to take some time to think about this. Let me get back to you. So taking a pause, that aspect, I call it the power of the pause, is just learning about that, then having a few scripts. If somebody is saying something that you feel uncomfortable with in a conversation, and you could just say, what do you mean by that? I love that sentence. I remember very clearly. And I can tell you about this. My mother, who was a very compliant person, she used that sentence once, and it has stayed with me for so long. So I can describe that to you in a minute. But these small acts of defiance, even just practicing, for example, if you get the wrong coffee order, like saying something about it, you know, you might not Think these are particularly defiant acts, but they make a difference, and they sort of get you rehearsing. It gets your mouth used to saying those words and your ears used to hearing it. Because if we don't practice, we're never gonna change those neural pathways.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

You know, at Good.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Inside, we talk a lot about what.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

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[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

The kids after soccer practice and you.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Want to chip in. Or when your sister spots you for a birthday gift and you can pay her back right away. Zelle is an easy way to send and receive money directly between enrolled bank accounts. But more than that, it's about little moments when you say, I've got you look for it in your banking app, and when it counts, send money with Zelle.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

You're talking about the coffee. Makes me think about a story I want to share, too.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Oh, yeah, Wonderful.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

I was traveling for work a little while ago, and I got a coffee in the airport, and I wanted just a little bit of milk in my coffee. And so I was pretty, you know, direct. I said, hey, you know, can I. Can I get a medium coffee? Just a little bit of milk? I like it pretty dark, right? So I get my coffee, and it looks like mostly milk and very little coffee, right? Very, very light. And I just know I'm not gonna drink it. I don't like it like that. It's not what I asked for. So I got back at the back of the line, waited a couple people, and then I was up. I said, hey, all good. I know you're taking a lot of orders. My coffee came out very light. I'd asked for a dark. Could I get a new one? And the one behind the counter said something like, oh, like, no problem. Yep. I totally remember you saying that, you know, gave me a new one. And I shared this story on Instagram, and it was one of those moments. There are certain things I'll share in a story on Instagram and the number of DMs that come in, let me know, like, oh, I've hit something.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Yes.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

And it was just that it was. Oh, my goodness. I totally would have been angry, resentful, complaining to someone, oh, I didn't have coffee today, or, you know, I would have drank that coffee. And, you know, I'm kind of Lactose intolerant, got an awful stomachache and been, you know, farting the whole plane ride and feel awful about it. Like all these, like hysterical DMs were coming in and meaningful ones like, wow, this story made me cry, like, this is gonna help me today. And kind of the ripple of it's okay to tap into that tension and my own, whether it's what I need, what I want, my values, even in the face of kind of insinuation, anxiety.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Yes, it's a small act of defiance that's actually very helpful. It might seem like an individual act, but it's actually a communal act. Let me tell you about the story of my mom because I think this is so important in a way that we can role model for our children. And I have heard so many stories now from people telling me about when they once witnessed their parents defy and how it stayed with them. And it really has this ripple effect. So my mom, she, to me was like, at one point, I thought of compliance and defiance as two binary things. And now I've reasoned, like, now I know it's like a scale, right? It's a series of steps. But I had put her very neatly in the compliance book. She did all the cooking, the cleaning, the grocery shopping, everything. And that can leave people thinking, oh, this is what goodness looks like. You know, this is what we should aspire like to be so good. And she was quiet, she was deferential, she was conflict avoiding, very kind. She was also quite petite, you know, 4 foot 10. And I remember one day we were walking home from the grocery store in West Yorkshire, England, and she was dragging behind her our rickety shopping cart. Just looks like, you know, wheeled luggage that had our groceries in it. And we decided to take a shortcut through a narrow alleyway, we call it a Snicket in West Yorkshire. And I was always told never to go in the Snicket on my own. But we were together, we wanted to take this shortcut and we went down it and we were confronted with a group of teenage boys. And they blocked our path and shouted out some racial things and said, go back home. And my reaction was instant. Like I just did what I'd been taught to do. Say nothing, avoid conflict, keep the peace. And I grabbed my mom's arm and I just wanted to sort of maneuver as fast as possible through the boys, but she didn't move. So my mother, who always kept her head down, she did something completely different. She stopped and she looked at the boys directly in the eye. And then she Said, what do you mean? And my heart started to race at this point, and I grabbed her arm even tighter and I was basically saying, come on, Ma. And she said no to me. And she shrugged off my arm and she pulled up the shopping cart up vertical, and she put one hand on her hip, like. And to me, she was like, taller than I'd ever seen her. You know, I was still only 4 foot 10, but somehow, like, she.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Taking up space.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Yes. And she turned to the boys again and she said, what do you mean? And they didn't answer. They were just completely silent.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

Wow.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

And she looked at them and then she said, oh, yes, you think you're so clever. Big, strong, tough boys. Right. And I was just thinking. And it was still silent. And the boys started looking at each other. And then one of them said, let's go. And they just dispersed. And she grabbed the shopping cart and she just walked forward. And I was thinking, what just happened? I would never have thought that she could behave in such a way that she would be telling off these boys in the streets. And it made such an impact on me that it taught me that defiance isn't a personality, it's a skill set. We can choose to use it or not. And even the most compliant person can surprise us. The person you think are the least likely to defy. They can completely surprise us because they've been quietly practicing.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

They have it in them.

[Dr. Sunita Sa]

Yeah. So you don't need to be a certain type of person to defy. You just need to be connected to what matters.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

I really love that and thank you. So many of us, yes. Have had those missed opportunities. Your book allows us, like, a roadmap from going from all the missed opportunities we've all had to some of these small acts and kind of taking those steps. So thank you. I love this conversation and thank you for the really important work you're doing. I don't know about you, but my number one takeaway that I'm going to keep thinking about after today's conversation is how we look at our kids behavior when they're growing up. There is some behavior that is short term, convenient. Compliance. It's easy to have a kid who's compliant, but long term, so many of the things we want for our kids involves them being a little defiant. And so that's what I'm going to be thinking about. Okay, let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground and place your hand on your heart. And let's remind ourselves even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you next week.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Do you ever think I love my kid but I really don't like them right now? Usually after those moments when they look.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

You dead in the eye, do the thing you ask them not to do.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

And maybe even laugh in your face. Look, if that sounds familiar, you are not alone. And I have one of those kids, too. I call this kid my Resilient Rebel.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

And let's just say this kid has definitely kept me on my toes.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

And what works for other kids is.

[Dr. Becky Kennedy]

It totally backfires with this kid.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

And then you're left thinking, why is this so hard? Am I doing something wrong? Here's the truth. You're not doing something wrong. These kids just need a different approach. Earlier this year, I ran a workshop called why is Everything a Battle? It was so powerful for parents, I knew we had to bring it back. And it's happening again on Wednesday, November 19th. You'll leave really understanding your kid with strategies you can use right away and relief that you know what to do the next time a power struggle starts. And you'll have that feeling back of liking your kid again and feeling close. The event is included in your Good Inside membership. If you're not a member yet, no worries, you can join and save your [e-mail] defiance that's goodinside.com defiance.