A (3:08)

You wrote a book on change. Tell me, like, why. Why did you write a book about change?

B (3:14)

I think it's because I've always been really scared of change. And, you know, I had formative experiences with change as a kid. I've had experiences with change as an adult, and I have always felt so unprepared for those moments and was so curious about why the experience of unexpected change is so disorienting for us as humans. And research shows that in part, it's because change is accompanied by so much uncertainty, and our brains are not wired to like, uncertainty. So one of my favorite research studies shows that we are more stressed when we're told we have a 50% chance of getting an electric shock than when we're told we have a 100% chance of getting an electric shock. And it sounds kind of wild, Becky.

A (4:05)

Right?

B (4:05)

Like, why is it that we would have that response? But it also feels so intuitive and resonant for me. Like, yes, bring on all the shocks. I just want to know how the story ends. I hate having ambiguity, you know, in my life. And so wrestling with that and then understanding also how change can threaten our identities in really profound ways, led me on this expedition to find the most extraordinary stories of change that I could in the world. But importantly, to find ones that had a very universal lesson within them that could help all of us navigate change with more ease and more possibility. And that's what led me to the other side of change. That's what led me to this book.

A (4:50)

We are more scared when we are told there's a 50% chance of electric shock than 100% chance. And that makes sense and is counterintuitive to me at the same time. Right. But tell me if this is along the same lines that I feel like, as humans, we're kind of built to solve problems. Like, we're pretty good at solving problems. Like, okay, even something horrible. Like, I'm just gonna say my kid was just given some really serious medical diagnosis. Like, I have the diagnosis. Okay, There's a name for it. I'm gonna find a specialist. I'm gonna call. I'm gonna figure out how to try to get In I'm gonna hear if there's other doctors, I'm gonna fly to this specialized hospital. Like, if you really think about that, there's a lot of logistics, a lot of emotions, a lot of things to do. But I think you can think about the mobilization around that versus you have that first doctor's appointment and someone says, oh, there's something a little odd and something I'm noticing with your kid. Let's look into it, or, you know, let's do another test. And I mean, the thought of that in my body, it does. It feels way more uncomfortable than the first scenario. Like the waiting, the not knowing, the. In some ways, the waiting, not knowing, uncertainty without the ability to mobilize. I know for me, it's like my body does not like that. No, no, no.

B (6:13)

I don't have anxiety just hearing you talk about it in the hypothetical. So, yes, I mean, that is exactly true. So, look, I think in everyday life, we all fall prey to what psychologists call the illusion of control. So we love having our hands firmly on the steering wheel, believing that we are dictating outcomes and we are able to control how our lives turn out. And so much research shows that we overestimate the degree to which we're in control, that we're in charge. And I think what happens when a big change comes our way, when the proverbial anvil drops from the sky, is it shatters that illusion. It immediately reminds us, oh, my God, some of this is just a fiction in my head, this idea that I was in control. It's just not true. And now I have to contend with the limits of that control. And I so resonate with what you said because I, by nature am a very action oriented person. Right. I will try to outwork every problem. I will try to hustle my way through every problem. And you know this because we're friends outside of this. But I have had a very challenging journey in the wanting to become a mom space over the last many, many years. And my husband and I have still been unable to have kids and to start a family. We've been met by so many disappointments and obstacles and failures and heartbreaks over the years. And I think. And that was actually the moment where I realized, like, I had to write this book because what was so obvious to me then was, oh, my God. I think the reason why I'm reeling so much from this change from, you know, this pregnancy loss in particular is because there's no such thing as outworking a problem in the fertility space. There's no such thing as, like, hustle, Maya. Stepping in and finding a way around it and figuring out, okay, here's what I'm gonna do. It's just a waiting game, and it's a hoping game, and no amount will in that space translates. And what I saw as being a universal response in me was a feeling of helplessness, right? A feeling of, like, I don't know what to do next. And, you know, it's funny, you asked me, like, what? Like, why. Why write a book on change? And I think it's actually because in that moment, this mantra was ringing in my head that I see all over Instagram and social media. It's while you can't change what happens to you, you can change your reaction to what happens. And it is based in ancient wisdom, and it's quite profound. But in that moment, Becky, when I was so devastated and felt so out of control, it really registered as a platitude. I was like, I don't actually know how to think or feel differently about my change. It's not like there's a switch in my brain I can just flip, and suddenly I'm gonna feel better or feel a new perspective or what have you. And so my book is actually a response to the need that I had in that moment, which was, someone give me a manual. Someone tell me, what are the right questions to ask? What are the tools and techniques that I can have at my disposal in those moments to help me renew my relationship with the change that I'm going through?

A (9:40)

So, first of all, thank you for sharing all that. Second, I've always felt honored to be let in, you know, to this journey, and I'm so sorry for that loss. And the other thing, Maya, there's two things that I want to say. Number one is, you like me, we write about what's hard for us, and we write about what we fear. Everyone's like, maya's an expert in change. I'm like, no, she's not. Like, I know her. No offense.

B (10:08)

Totally.

A (10:09)

You know, Becky's an expert in parenting. No, she's not.

B (10:13)

Whoa. Like, let's just.

A (10:14)

I don't even know. I don't. You know, like, why do I write about sitting with feel instead of how important it is to sit with feelings instead of fix feelings? Not because I'm expert at that, because that's very hard for me. I write about what I fear. And I think it's actually interesting, as you were talking, as that is a coping mechanism, actually, which I think there's by the Way worse coping mechanisms for the things you fear than writing and thinking about them. But you and I are very similar. And then the other thing that came to mind, and I don't know if I've ever shared this with you, that I have this equation that I use to think about what anxiety is, and I love thinking about anything in an equation. Not because I'm good at math. My equations are always X plus Y. So we'll keep it simple, but because it makes it very real. And then you can understand how you can change factors. Okay, so anxiety equals uncertainty, plus the underestimation of our ability to cope. And what you were saying about your fertility and what I always tell parents about anxiety, by the way, some amount of reduction in uncertainty is helpful. Like, if you're just having infertility struggles, you do need a little hustle. Go read the thing. Go think about a doctor. And I think what you're saying, though, is there's always a point where the hustle stops working, and a lot of us stick with the hustle at that point, and then it almost makes us more anxious. Like we've overdone that side of the equation. Right, Right. Like, your kid is very, very anxious about soccer practice. Sure. Before the first soccer practice on a new team, show them a picture of the field. Tell them their coach's name. But you know the loop of like, well, can you tell me every kid's name? And what number am I gonna be? And does it start at 3:30, but really 3:35? And at that point you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Not useful. And the other part of the equation. And again, I'm speaking about this because anyone who knows me well is like, becky, you're the first person who needs this advice. I know. That's why I'm saying it. Okay, so I'm with you. I'm with you. Ha. Okay. Is the underestimation of our ability to cope with the thing we can't hustle our way through. So I'm curious what you think about that.

B (12:30)

Oh, my gosh, yes. Actually, you have just hit on the thesis of my book, which is that we can actually see change as an opportunity to reimagine who we can be rather than as something to just endure. There's a reason it's called the other side of change. It's about who we become on the other side of change. And exactly to your point, we wildly underestimate our ability to cope with what's ahead of us because we forget that we are a work in Progress that will be changing, too. So when a big change happens to us, it also leads to lasting change within us.

A (13:15)

I notice and pay attention when, like, my body responds. I just had the chills as you started the first part of that, which is, like, we change as well. We change with the thing we call change. Can. Can you just. I don't know, let's stay in that space. Say more about that.

B (13:33)

Let's unpack this for a little bit. Because this was the insight that I was having writing this book, which was all these people feeling completely daunted at the outset of a change and then marveling as they reflected back at not only how they coped, but who they became. So let's set the basics here so all of us fall prey to what's called the end of history illusion. This refers to the fact that we fully acknowledge we've changed considerably in the past. So, Becky, you show me footage from me as a high schooler. I have a cringe moment. I'm like, please never do that again. You told me you were my friend. Omg. And I'm like, I don't even. Like, let's forge as much psychological distance between me and high school Maya as possible, because that is awful. Yet, if you ask me, okay, but how much are you going to change in the future? I would say, nope, I'm the finished product. What you see here, that's what you're going to get forever. And Dan Gilbert and his colleagues who coined this term, they say people think of the present as this watershed moment in which they finally become the person they're going to be for the rest of their lives. So it's such a funny quirk in our brains, right, that we are always believing that the person we are right now in this moment is the person who's here to stay. And what that means is actually something that's filled with hope. Because when we are feeling so intimidated at the outside of a change, we forget that change will accelerate that internal transformation process. The unique stressors, the new demands and stresses of being thrust into a new environment are going to reveal things to you about yourself that were previously hidden from view. And they're also going to unearth new capabilities, new potential, new perspectives, new values that you did not see possible. And so what has been so interesting to me, spending hours and hours and hours interviewing the people for my book over years, was seeing firsthand. Would they have willed the negative change to happen in their lives? No. Right. Let's not kid ourselves. It has to be an honest portrayal of people's experiences. But were they grateful for who they became as a result of all that pressure testing and all the revelations they had about who they were that were only surfaced because of the change? Absolutely. And I will tell you, I am like, you know me, I am the biggest skeptic, right? So when I hear someone say something like, there's opportunity on the other side of change, I'm like, dude, come on. Like, seriously. But I have actually.

A (16:10)

Buy me a different Hallmark card.

B (16:11)

Yes, exactly. Let me tell you, I actually experienced this firsthand in the process of writing. I mean, the book took me like three and a half years. So I was able to sort of reflect on the wisdom of the people I was interviewing and reflect on the scientific insights. I am now a few years out from some of the hardest moments in my life. Right. So that second pregnancy loss when we lost twins was so devastating for me. And I remember in that moment thinking, becoming a mom is the identity that I have wanted since the time I was four years old. It is the earliest identity I ever attach myself to. And if I cannot have that identity, my life is going to be in grayscale forever. And I will never feel whole and I will never feel worthy. And I'm talking to you now on the other side, as someone who has found peace, as someone who is currently child free, as someone who feels more hopeful than she ever has and who's someone who, as someone who's living a richer existence than she ever thought possible. And I could never, ever have seen that coming, given what my starting point was.

A (17:33)

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B (20:00)

Yeah, it's. So it's interesting to reflect on that because you're absolutely right. I have believed falsely so many times in my life that the way I felt then was how I was always going to feel about something. And that is part of that bias we have in our brains. I mean, we are bad affective forecasters. We're terrible at predicting how we will feel about things in the future. And I think that that is a very humbling lesson. But if you apply it in the right context, it actually can fill you with quite a bit of optimism. I will tell you that the biggest insight for me in doing all of this work and this is the combination, by the way, of hosting a slight change of plans and then writing this book. You talk to people who had such a broad range of change experiences is that there's one thing that unites them, and it was that for every person. The reason why the change felt so uncomfortable in their bodies is because it was threatening something fundamental about who they thought they were. And I think that I can trace this back to very early in my life. So I mentioned I had had formative experiences with change as a kid. So, long story short, I was an aspiring concert violinist. I was studying at Juilliard under Itzhak Perlman. I was like, I think I might have what it takes to go pro. And Then a sudden hand injury ended my dreams overnight, and doctors told me that I would not be able to play the violin. And when I look back at 15 year old Maya, who was navigating this, of course I was devastated, and of course I expected to feel devastated. But there was something so interesting about my grief, which is that I wasn't just grieving the loss of the instrument, I was also grieving the loss of myself in this more fundamental way. Like the violin had almost become an extension of my body. Like everywhere I went, I felt like I was a violinist before I was even Maya. And so it was only when it was taken away from me that I realized just how much it had defined my identity. And it was a kind of similar experience in my quest for motherhood. Right. When you get the news that it hasn't been successful, you realize, oh my God, I was anchoring so much of my self worth to this label or to this identity. And so what I've learned recently, and I hope that this can help your listeners, people who are going through changes of all kind, or who are simply trying to think differently about a past change or trying to get ahead of a future change, because whether we like it or not, change is coming for us. It's going to hit us all, is to define your identity not simply by what you do, but by why you do it. So this was like an aha moment for me. I thought, okay, rather than defining myself as having been a violinist or a writer or a podcast or a cognitive scientist, what is it about those things that really makes me light up? Like, what is my motivation for doing them? And I realized that human connection is at the heart of everything that I've done. Like, that is my why a desire to have conversations like the one I'm having with you right now, that is the thing that drives me. And so just because I lost the ability to play the violin didn't mean that I lost what made me love it in the first place, which was connecting with other people. And just because I wasn't able to achieve my dream of becoming a mother doesn't mean that I lost what made me want to become a mom in the first place, which was a desire to, like, care for little humans and to cuddle with them and to have these lovely moments. And now the question becomes for me, well, through what other outlets can I express this? Why? Right. So I'm getting a lot of that emotional connection that I was craving from the work that I do. Podcast interviewing for the book. I have six nieces and nephews that I absolutely adore. I get to mentor people through my job. Like I just encourage every person to ask themselves what their why is. Because it's a much more stable identity to hold onto during times of change. And it can actually be a North Star for you when you life makes other plans and you need to figure out what comes next.

A (24:13)

This is so important and I want to, I want to translate it like in a couple ways around parenting. So, you know, I'm thinking about a parent, let's say, who, I don't know, let's say they worked outside the home their whole life and now they're not, or you know, something like that. And what you're saying here is if that feels like a loss or that's a hard change, the job is the thing on the outside, that's the thing you do, but it lights something up for you on the inside. And maybe it literally could be a million things. Is it that you really like making your own money? Maybe. Is it that your job was in the creative field and you love the creativity? Is it that you miss the water cooler adult conversation about things that had nothing to do with children? Is it that you love problems and trying to think through them that don't have to do with your kids or yourself? Again? Because like you're saying, your why can be so varied, right? And if you start to just ask yourself those questions and anyone listening, it's okay if you don't have an immediate answer. Most people don't. So that doesn't mean anything's wrong with you. It just means to continue having the question pop up and try out different things. Is it this? Is it that? Because then you can have a different inside out process. Once you've kind of looked outside at what you miss and brought it in, once you know what it is on the inside, you say, okay, so for whatever reason, working outside the home isn't the thing for me. What's another way I might be able to get this need met? And you know what? Maybe your first version felt like a 10 out of 10 and this new way you can meet that need feels like a 9 out of 10 or even a 5 out of 10. Sometimes a 5 out of 10 is the best we get at different parts of our life for certain needs. And it's a whole lot better than a zero. It's a whole lot better than a zero out of ten. Right?

B (25:58)

I, I love that application. And it's, it's reminding me of a conversation that I had my the book team that I have at Penguin Random House. This woman, Michelle, she had read it, she had read my book and she was telling me how her mom was battling a really serious illness and she was grieving the fact that she couldn't make meals for her daughter anymore. My friend Michelle, and this was absolutely heartbreaking for her, she just didn't have the physical abilities to cook those meals. And Michelle had just read this passage of the book and she went to her mom and she said, mom, what was your why? What were you getting from cooking these meals for me? She said, michelle, I just love taking care of you. And given that you're an adult now, there are so few moments, so few opportunities for me to play that role in your life. It was just a way for me to express my love for you. And Michelle goes, okay, now we know the why. Let us brainstorm other ways that you are going to be able to show your love for me that are within your physical, your current physical capabilities. And it was such a beautiful illustration of how we can all use this in our lives. Because things are constantly going to change. And when we anchor our identity too firmly to something that can be quite precarious, it can leave us feeling totally unmoored on the other side. And on that same note, actually, I think it's also very important to make sure that we are remembering that each of us carry within ourselves rich and multifaceted identities. So one thing I found is that I'm sure you and I are very similar in this way. Like when we put our mind to something, we become single mindedly focused on achieving that goal. So I entered the become a moment zone. And it was like I was wearing blinders, Becky. Like, everything became about that. Every conversation I was having with my husband was about this topic for years and years and years. And what happened as a result of those blinders is that I lost perspective on my life. So if I can just share a personal story with you. I remember on the night of the second miscarriage, my husband came in and goes, maya, Mayi. That's his nickname for me, Mayi. Let's do a gratitude exercise. Like, let's just say the things we're grateful for. And I was like, dude, no, I was not having it, okay? I was like, you take your positivity nonsense. You go over there. I'm not doing this, okay? I'm staying under the covers and I'm going to sulk and feel miserable. So I looked at him and I was like, no. And then finally he did wear me down and I Was like, okay, fine, I'll start this. So I start rattling a couple things off. I'm like, well, I'm so grateful that, you know, I've had the same colleagues for over 10 years and we have so much fun together working. And I love my Zoom workouts with my trainer and I love hosting. A slight change of plans. I get to meet all these super cool people that I wouldn't have met otherwise. And I swear to God, something magical happened as I was reciting this list, which was I suddenly zoomed out and saw my life as a whole and realized that there were all these other rich identities that I found so much meaning in and I so valued that I completely lost sight of. And there's research. So my husband, who's a software engineer, did not realize he was engaging me in this thing called a self affirmation exercise. But you basically just take five minutes and you jot down every identity that matters to you, but importantly, ones that are not threatened by the change that you're going through. So, for example, if you're going through a tough spot in your relationship or you're having a really hard time as a parent, you might affirm your spiritual life, or the fact that you really love the community of women who go to your yoga class with you, or you really value the productivity you feel at work. And it's just a way of reminding yourself that your whole being is not being threatened by the change. Like, you are still very much intact and you are still whole.

A (30:06)

First of all, that's so beautiful. And it really. You know, I always love when I'm talking to someone and I think we just have like slightly different language for very similar ideas. You're talking about the idea that, like, we have multiple parts and all of our parts matter. And the only time we really get into a bad place is kind of when one of the parts, and they all kind of live in the backseat of our car, takes over the driver's seat. And I think we all think the answer for the hard, painful parts is we wanna kick them out of the car. And we use a lot of energy trying to do that. But the unfortunate truth, or actually the fortunate truth, cause they all play a part, is that they're never gonna leave the car. But actually it's the taking over the driver's seat that really makes us lose control. And. And when you do at a red light, turn your head around and be like, oh, oh, there's my yoga thing. That's my religious life. Like, you do forget. And just knowing they're there. And I just want to tell people, like, you're going through a change and sometimes we can't hear the other voices. You're like, I don't know what I'm grateful for, but even just being able to say, like, but I know you're in there. Like, I know you're in there. Like, I think back to when we were a kid. I don't know why this image, like, you're in a closet, you don't feel like it's safe to come out, and how different it feels if nobody comes into your room versus if someone comes in and just says, I know you're there and I'll wait till you want to speak. It doesn't mean you're going to speak, but someone just knowing that you're there and putting that out there is completely different than silence.

B (31:40)

Right?

A (31:42)

And sometimes when we feel overwhelmed by a change or we all get overwhelmed by like, this is my whole truth and this is a helpless situation and I'm never gonna change. And I listen to that podcast, but Maya doesn't know my story and I'm not gonna have a future self. Like, there are moments like that and if you can't hear the capable part or the maybe there's other parts of me part to even like visualize that they are in the car or maybe they're in that closet or even name like, I can't hear your voice right now, but that doesn't mean you're not real. Can also be that tiny shift.

B (32:15)

Yeah, I completely agree. And I thought a lot about kind of what I could credibly promise someone reading my book. And it's not necessarily happiness because everyone will have their own timeline and everyone's going to be facing a different situation. And some changes are so harrowing and might take years, right, to recover from. But what I can promise people is a set of approaches that will give them the hope that there is another way. And like you said, they might not know what that other way is to be or to think or to feel. But there is another way. And my goal is to make them very curious about what those other ways might be so that they're empowered with the right questions and the right tools.

A (33:01)

And as you know, this is exactly what I feel like we do for parents. Right? Like you feel like, no, my kids tantrums are so much worse. My kid is a sociopath, my kid will never have friends. My kid is so strong willed and right. And. And the truth is the worst part of that situation is your Kind of conviction that this is the whole truth and the forever truth. And I think that's the first thing we give parents too is like hope and a little bit of vision that like maybe there, maybe there is something else. Right. And I don't know if I've ever said this to you, but I think the essence of dealing with anxiety and maybe change is this duality of like, I believe you and I believe in you. Like, I believe you that the hard is really that hard and the awful is that awful. And yes, like, yes to all. But if I have one foot in the difficulty of this moment and even if you have two feet in it, like, I will always have my other foot in the, like, I believe in you. And I don't even know what it's going to look like, but it's going to be something a little better than this.

B (34:05)

And sometimes different just feels better too because it's so maddening to be stuck in a certain state of mind. Right? Especially. And I know that this comes. I mean, I'm an avid listener of good inside. You talk a lot about shame, right. And blame. And I think one way in which parents get stuck is they're not just feeling, oh, I'm going to feel this way forever, they're also blaming themselves and they're not recognizing that self compassion is actually the solution in those situations. And there are stories that I dive into in the book where because we. It's so interesting, the logic makes sense, but it's, it sets us up for failure. It's like, well, if we can take credit for the good stuff in our lives, we also feel like we should probably take responsibility for the bad stuff. The truth is actually somewhere in the middle, which is like, we can only take a little bit of credit for the good stuff. We should only take a little bit of credit for the bad stuff. But it's just that it harkens back to an earlier conversation which is we have this strong intern, what's called an internal locus of control, where we believe that we are the ones that are driving this input output model that is life. Rather than having an external locus of control, where we believe that all these external factors are actually influencing how things turn out. And so when things don't go our way or our kid is a certain way and not another way, it's all too easy to place the blame on ourselves and to immediately say, okay, well, this must be a sign that I'm a bad parent. When of course the reality is so, so, so much more complex. And you're not actually tapping in to the best version of yourself when when you engage in that kind of self reflection.

A (35:51)

My this has been so powerful. It's left me with so many thoughts too. I want to kind of end by giving you a little bit of a rapid fire complete the sentence around change. So take a deep breath.

B (36:01)

I try to be 50. Don't be my strength.

A (36:03)

I know, Me neither. But we can do hard things. This is. You are accessing your pithy self right now. You are welcome. Okay. Change is hardest when you think it's your fault. Change feels more manageable when you're in community. The biggest change I didn't see coming.

B (36:24)

Was a child free life.

A (36:27)

When I'm in the middle of change.

B (36:29)

I try to remind myself some things are still constant.

A (36:33)

A small change that's made a big difference in my life is my morning.

B (36:38)

Ritual of a hot cup of Indian style tea, cardamom fresh ginger. It's delicious.

A (36:46)

I mean, that feels actionable for me pretty soon. So thank you. Okay, last one. For the parent listening who's struggling in a hard stage with their kid and they feel desperate for a change, what you want to tell them is your.

B (37:03)

Kid will change and you will change as a parent.

A (37:06)

So beautiful. Thank you. Maya. This has been incredible and I know people have gotten so much in this conversation and will get so much from your book, the Other side of who We Become When Life Makes Other Plans.

B (37:21)

Thanks so much, Becky. So fun to be here.

A (37:24)

I got so much from that episode. But I want to tell you the two things that are loudest in my head. Number one, when we go through a change, we often forget we will change alongside that moment. That is so helpful to bring out our inner resilience. Number two, when you're mourning something, when you've lost something in a change, think about what it is on the outside. But then think about what that thing gave you on the inside. Because there might be another avenue to get those feelings or that need met. Let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground and place a hand on your heart. And let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon. Do you remember those first few weeks of parenthood? Beautiful, overwhelming, exhausting, confusing all at once. I remember all those feelings clustering together for me. And I know having support during that time made such a difference. That's why for five days this season, we're partnering with welcome Baby, a nonprofit that provides essential supplies to new parents in need. From December 18 through December 22, 10% of every new Good Inside membership will help fund welcome baby packages filled with the basics a mother and newborn need for their first four weeks. So when you join Good Inside, you're getting the support you need and giving it to another parent who needs it, too. Learn more@goodinside.com.