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Good Life Project
An Impossible Dream That Became an Incredible Life | Dr. Bernard A. Harris Jr.
00:50:25
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- [00:01]
Jonathan Fields
So many of us have wild dreams. So few of us ever make them happen. But that's not today's story. So when my guest Today, Bernard Harris Jr. Was a little kid navigating loss and struggle. He'd look up at the sky and dream of being an astronaut. That dream became his refuge and eventually his reality. But it would take decades and relentless drive to keep it alive. And now, a physician, a NASA astronaut, venture capitalist, and philanthropist, he made history as the first African American to complete a Spacewalk, logging over 438 hours and traveling more than 7.2 million miles in space. His new book, embracing infinite letting go of fear to find your highest potential. It explores how we can all reach beyond perceived limitations. But this isn't a story about space or medicine. It's about what happens when you refuse to let go of a dream. What fascinates me, also about Bernard's story, it isn't just his incredible achievements, but how he transformed a parade of adversity and setbacks into fuel for growth. It's his mindset along the way. How he pursued medicine but never released his belief that one day he would be in space.
- [01:20]
Bernard Harris Jr.
And.
- [01:20]
Jonathan Fields
And how his initial rejection from NASA's astronaut program, actually, instead of pushing him back or leading him to walk away, it led him to go and actively seek to acquire even more expertise and skills, making him pretty much impossible to turn down when the next opportunity came. And wait until you hear what it felt like when he first opened that hatch to step out into space with Earth rock rushing by below at an incomprehensible speed. What it felt like looking back at that little blue marble of a planet moving at 17,000 miles per hour. And how that perspective just forever changed the way that you see humanity and boundaries and your own place in the universe. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project.
- [02:18]
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- [03:22]
Jonathan Fields
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- [05:14]
Bernard Harris Jr.
You know, I never thought about it from that standpoint. I started out my life in Houston, Texas and in inner city Houston, Texas. My parents had three kids that they were managing at the time. My father had just left the army. In retrospect, he probably should have stayed there because the end result was they struggled early on with three kids and my mother had a degree from Prairie View A and M University. As an educator, that was probably one of the first lessons I learned about how education gives you options. My father only had a 10th or 11th grade education. My mother realized that this was not a life to raise her kids. My father also suffered from alcoholism during that time. And so she exercised her option. She left. And I remember very distinctly when I was around six years old, her packing us up and saying, we're going to visit your grandmother, her mother. And unbeknownst to us, she was actually leaving my father at that point. And I described this feeling, and I actually kind of getting goosebumps as I talk about it right now, of being on that Greyhound bus with all of our suitcases, you know, packed up and heading and realizing, being the oldest at the time, that this was different and that where are we going and what's happening? And I remember looking out of the bus window and there was a full moon, and the full moon was darting out in and out of behind the trees. And with that question, where are we going? Where am I heading? What sort of future do I have? And as you said, I guess that was a little traumatic. Many months later, my father caught up with us and promised that he would get us back together. As I talk about in my book, the previous book and the current book, that was a promise that was unfulfilled. I didn't see him again until I was 18 years old, graduated from high school. We ended up, my mother getting a job, worked for the Bureau of Indian affairs out on the Navajo Nation. I went from this constrictive, restrictive environment of inner city Houston to a land of painted deserts and Grand Canyons and petrified forests and nights when the sun would go down and the lights would appear, the heavens, and I would wonder what it would be like to travel amongst the stars. And that was my escape.
- [08:02]
Jonathan Fields
I imagine also you were living. And tell me if I'm making assumptions here, but there was almost like a double script running. On the one hand, you're dealing with profound change and dropping into a completely different environment and culture and trying to figure out, who am I in the context of this space? Like, who is everybody else here? How do we relate with each other? And how do I. How do I move through each day while at the same time then having these almost existential experiences of just seeing the night sky and being deeply, deeply inspired?
- [08:35]
Bernard Harris Jr.
And that was my savior. The dream of traveling in space was what saved me. It was my refuge, the notion of me climbing on board my very own spaceship in traveling to visit another World. And seeing that play out in the 60s as space program really sort of brought it all together. It materialized it for me right before my eyes. But I want to say something else too that you mentioned. It was a difficult time, transition. It was a difficult time. Even though I saw men going into space, but they were white men going into space. On that little black and white television that I had, I didn't see any of us, didn't see any women that were part of the space program. And in fact, I could change the channel. This is the early 60s. Right. And see what was happening to blacks in this country during that time. We were fighting for simply the right to vote and the right to exist. And so again, my dream of traveling in space, becoming an astronaut, was my salvation.
- [09:47]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. And at the same time, though, I would imagine you're seeing these representations around you, but none of them are reflecting you. And also, you dropped into a community that is not white, but it's also not you.
- [10:02]
Bernard Harris Jr.
Yeah.
- [10:02]
Jonathan Fields
You know, and I would imagine there were probably many common threads that you found. But like you're dropped into another community, an indigenous culture that itself had endured generations and generations of othering and ostracization and hardship. I'm wondering if you have recollections of just what that was like personally.
- [10:22]
Bernard Harris Jr.
First day of school, in fact, being on the playground. I think by the time we had transitioned to there, I think I was in the second grade. And during recess it was very isolating because my brother and I were the only black kids in the community. Not just the school, but in the community. And it was a small community called Reeswood, Arizona, which is part of the Navajo Nation. I went to a boarding school along with the Native American students. If you could imagine, this little kid was a little short Afro standing there in the playground. And nobody's playing with me, right. And occasionally someone would come up and touch my hair. And basically they had not experienced an Afro or a short Afro back then. It wasn't quite the 70s afro that it would become later on because they had never had that experience. But thank God, as kids will do, we managed. My brother, my sister and I managed to develop a bond with them and sort of that common bond. The struggles that we have as people of color in this country, especially during that time, brought us together.
- [11:42]
Jonathan Fields
So as you're sort of like finding your way through this new way of being and new place of living, new community, and then again being inspired by just the. And I don't know if anybody who's listening has ever been in what's often identified as sort of like a dark sky sanctuary. But so often people haven't. You know, we live in cities, we live in urban or suburban communities where when the lights go out at night, there's still so much ambient light, you really can't see much. And then there are these different places around at least the US And I'm sure the world that are designated dark sky sanctuary. So it happens to be one a few hours from me. And I remember driving out there and looking up at night, and you're just like, dear God, where did this come from? Has this been here the whole time?
- [12:28]
Bernard Harris Jr.
Yeah, for sure. You know, I sometimes will take kids out and we take them to Observatory and even there, you know, around the Houston area or around the. Sometimes. And when I visit other areas, you can get to those dark skies. And it is amazing to see the awe as they look up in the heavens as I did as a kid, realizing how many stars, billions of stars there are in the Milky Way galaxy that we're surrounded in every direction you look. And so it was pretty neat to have that experience.
- [13:09]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. I mean, I can't imagine it not being so when you take this experience and then you start to move into becoming an adult and then start to think about, what does my future hold in those early days, like, say, when you're sort of like wrapping up the high school years, what's in your mind?
- [13:26]
Bernard Harris Jr.
Yeah. So we spent total of about eight or nine years out there. I was there from, you know, age 6 or 7. At age 15, we moved back to Texas, to San Antonio. And I had to say what I would say a reverse experience. Right. So now I have lived essentially in a foreign land, and now I'm coming back to Texas and to the south. And so I no longer have my Southern accent that I did that I left with. Right. So I remember being teased this time by the students is that I was proper, as they put it, because there was no accent in that. And I soon learned how to say, y' all and the rest of them get it all back.
- [14:11]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah.
- [14:13]
Bernard Harris Jr.
So I could fit in. But it was during that time where I began to explore some of my skills and some of my inclinations toward things, some of my dreams and talents. I always say to young people that one of the things that really is important in your life is to spend time with yourself, to figure out what are those natural skills that we're born with and which are those skills that you are naturally talented in leaning toward Are those likes and what are those dislikes So I began to go through that exercise in 11th and 12th grade. And I realized in addition to my love for space and the idea of space exploration, I liked helping people. And it came out in a sort of interesting way. I played in the band, and that was one of my natural skills. It was music. And I remember we were at a football game, and the game got stopped because someone got injured in the audience, not on the field. And then there was a call out, is there a doctor? Right as they called the ambulance. And I just felt this overall urge that, man, if I had the skills, I could go and help that person. And so I turned that into actually going and talking to our family physician about what is it like to practice medicine. He told me about his experience. In fact, he allowed me to come to his office. He introduced me to medical students at the medical school there. And I realized that medicine was probably the profession that I would choose. And to people ask me, so how do you combine the two? Well, that was easy because during the same period of time, there was a guy by the name of Joe Kerwin, who was the first American physician to go into space. And I said, aha, I could become a medical doctor and follow in Hoot's footsteps.
- [16:18]
Jonathan Fields
So you had this representation. You had a person that you could point to. I did that said I can pursue these two dual curiosities that would eventually turn into passions, deep interests, and it doesn't necessarily have to be one or the other. I'm fascinated by the concept of sliding doors. I've had so many versions of conversations like this where if you had never seen a single example of somebody who was able to put this together, whether you would have ended up choosing a different way.
- [16:48]
Bernard Harris Jr.
Maybe that might be true for others, but not for this guy. I call myself a dreamer for a reason I have, and maybe it's one of my natural talents or maybe my natural haunts, depending on how it's used. When I decide that I have a goal in mind, I begin to research it. I begin to look for opportunities to learn more about that, learn more about medicine in this case, or learn more about space. And so for space, it was looking at what's happening on television and reading the newspapers and magazines of the day, talking about space exploration. For medicine, it was asking a question of the person that the only person I knew that was a medical doctor was the family, and then using that then to learn more. And I did. And I remember also writing a letter to NASA to ask what the requirements were for becoming an astronaut. And I remember getting that list of requirements along with a sign photo from an astronaut, and to this day I can't remember who the astronaut was, but one of the guys that I probably eventually met once I got into the astronaut office. But doing that internal work is so important and I've always done that at every step that I've taken in my professional and personal life.
- [18:16]
Jonathan Fields
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- [20:33]
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- [21:08]
Jonathan Fields
At the same time, you had a fairly circuitous route to the blend of space and medicine. At some point, you apply to NASA's astronaut corps. And I would imagine you're like, I'm passionate about it. I know. I've researched everything I can about it. Like, I'm your person. They say, no.
- [21:31]
Bernard Harris Jr.
Yeah. You said securitus. I don't know if it was. I kind of feel like I was on this mission. Right. Because I went to the University of Houston as a pre med student. I went to Texas Tech Medical School, went to Mayo Clinic. And the interesting thing happened at the Mayo Clinic, my first professor, we call them consultants, there was a guy in rheumatology who as he began to learn his. Learn about his residence, he would ask us, what do you want to do when you grow up? Essentially a big question I always get asked. And I said, I want to be an astronaut.
- [22:10]
Jonathan Fields
For those who can't see video. When I was just kind of hiding his mouth.
- [22:13]
Bernard Harris Jr.
Yeah, don't want to say that too loud.
- [22:15]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, right.
- [22:15]
Bernard Harris Jr.
Because my other colleagues would think I was absolutely crazy.
- [22:19]
Jonathan Fields
Is anyone looking?
- [22:20]
Bernard Harris Jr.
Yeah. And I saw his eyes light up. And then he told me that he actually worked at NASA as a flight surgeon who picked up the original astronauts during the Gemini Apollo program. I was like, oh, my God. And that Mayo had also worked with NASA and I didn't know that. I just selected Mayo for my residency in strong medicine. And so again, I go back to that. I can't remember what famous person said this, that when you have a goal and you set your heart to it, that the universe conspires to make it happen. And to me, that was an example of the universe conspiring to set me on the path, because I really didn't know what my path was going to be from rest and see. And then I got set on this course that eventually led me to that decision. You know, later that you talked about, when I left Mayo, I went to Ames Research Center, NASA Ames Research Center. I was doing a fellowship in studying bone loss as it occurs in space. And that was my toe in the water. And I applied the first time to the astronaut core and was rejected, but it was bittersweet. I got a no. But I also got an invitation to transfer to NASA Johnson Space Center. So it got me closer to my goal. And as many may not know, that Johnson Space center is the home of the astronauts. So I'm getting one step closer when that happens.
- [24:03]
Jonathan Fields
So now you've gotten a no in the initial application, but you get transferred closer to the physical location of where the. All the action is, where everything is happening. And it sounds like from what you've shared already in your mind, I'm guessing the internal dialogue is like, okay, this was a temporary delay, but I'm just moving closer and closer. This is going to happen. So how do you go from that to actually joining the astronaut corps?
- [24:30]
Bernard Harris Jr.
I remember getting the call about this transition. And the person, her name was Dr. Carolyn Huntoon, and she was an icon at Johnson Space Center. And she says, you're not going to be in the astronaut office, but I'd like you to come work for me. Essentially, I ended up working for the division that she. That she was in. And I remember immediately on that phone call, I said, yes. But then later that evening, I'm going like, oh, my God, this is. My dream is closing. It's not, you know, may or may not happen. You know, I'm going through all these gyrations about, you know, what am I going to do? And I. And it came down. I had two choices. One was I could give up on my dream, or two, I could take a chance that this would get me closer. And of course, you know which one I chose. And so I came here to Johnson Space center and did research for a couple years. That was the first time I applied, was the class of 1987. And the next class would come in in 1990. And I applied to the astronaut corps after doing research for a couple of years, and this time was selected. And so the dream, all the stars realigned.
- [25:48]
Jonathan Fields
Take me to that moment. Because when you say it, yeah, like, in this time, I was Selected. Do you remember the moment that you learned that you were in.
- [25:57]
Bernard Harris Jr.
Oh, definitely, definitely. So I had. During that transition, I decided that I wasn't going to take a chance of another. No. That I was going to do everything I could to enhance my skills so that they couldn't say they know. So during that transition period, not only was I doing research, pretty critical research for the space shuttle in the upcoming International Space Station. On the healthcare side, I also asked my boss if I could go and get additional training as a flight surgeon. So I actually went to the Air Force, did a residency in aerospace medicine. So now I've come back, I've got my research credentials. I've got. I'm a flight surgeon. And I also took flying lessons because I knew that, you know, this is one thing not only took flying lessons, I actually got my pilot's license during that period of time. So I didn't waste any, Any time or, or space during that. During that period of time. And so when I got a call, I was actually doing my job as a researcher and flight surgeon. And I was at Edwards Air Force Base and I was supporting a mission. It happened to be the mission of the guy. The commander was the head of the astronaut office. Once the committee had made their selection, they called him in space to let him know who was selected. And so I'm, you know, of course, I'm at Edwards again. I'm waiting for the crew to come down. I had just received the call that from the head of the center director or head of the astronaut office at that time, a different. The overall head of the astronaut office. And it may sound a little confusing, but, you know, we have a bureaucracy here. We have the center director, then we have the head of a directorate, and then we have the head of the astronaut office. So the directorate is the one who gave me a call and told me that I was selected. So I was happy. Right. And they're coming off. And the thing I remember the most is when the commander walked, you know, got off the shuttle and walked into the room.
- [28:15]
Jonathan Fields
Right. And he already knows.
- [28:16]
Bernard Harris Jr.
He already knows.
- [28:16]
Jonathan Fields
He pulls him up the space.
- [28:17]
Bernard Harris Jr.
He looks at me and he goes, welcome to the folds.
- [28:22]
Jonathan Fields
Oh, man, that moment must just be seared in your memory, like with a big smile. That's incredible.
- [28:29]
Bernard Harris Jr.
It is, yeah. I've done a lot of interviews, and you're the first person that has asked me about that moment. It's the first time I've ever kind of described that moment on air.
- [28:42]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, well, I mean, the smile on your face, it's almost like you were back there. It's beautiful. One of the things that's happening behind this also is, and this is such a huge lesson, I think, for so many of us is you were moving down this path. You were setting yourself up to do everything you thought would be necessary to get a yes. You applied and the answer was no. And for a lot of people, that no would have been like, okay, I guess I'm not meant for this, or this isn't meant for me. Let me just head off in this other direction, which is great, which has a lot to offer. You have a fantastic career, a lot of interesting work. There was a voice in you that said, this is a temporary thing. This is a moment in time. And rather than saying, I'm okay, this door is closed to me now. Let me sort of shift direction, let me make a pivot. Your pivot was into saying, what are all the things that I can do to make it so that the next time they're looking, the next time this door opens, it will literally be impossible for them to say no to me.
- [29:46]
Bernard Harris Jr.
That was the plan, for sure. That was the plan. And it also came with a fair amount of pressure, if you could imagine. Right.
- [29:56]
Jonathan Fields
Talk to me about that.
- [29:57]
Bernard Harris Jr.
Yeah. So I arrive. I'm a young doctor, young researcher gaining experience. I'm interfacing with the astronauts because we have to do pre and post flight assessments of them. So I'm the medical doctors that's doing that. And I always thought, you know, I could make a mistake because not only was I, you know, working with these guys, what if I had to tell them that they couldn't fly? Or what if I, you know, I had all of these issues. I remember they also had astronauts that were supporting the research effort. And I remember getting in conflict with one of the astronauts in that he wanted to go a certain direction. I didn't think it was the right direction. I wanted to go this in another direction. And so I opposed him. But I remember staying up late at night going like, oh, my God, I just ruined my chances. And in retrospect, it turned out that he respected me for making that decision. And it was the right decision, right decision to make. And so those times can test your character. And I guess in this case, I passed it.
- [31:09]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. But again, just an interesting moment where you knew what the stakes potentially were here. The stakes potentially were you had been training for years and years and years and doing everything you could possible to have this opportunity, the door open to you so you could step through it if and when it happened, and there was a moment where you had to make a decision to say, do I stand behind what I believe in my heart is right? And potentially risk closing that door for political reasons, really, or just social dynamic reasons, political capital reasons? Or do I just kind of keep my head down, go along with whatever is being sort of, like, offered to me, even though I don't agree, but it would probably be a smoother ride to a yes to the bigger thing I want? And you chose character. You chose that I need to be true to myself, even if it puts this big dream in some way, shape or form at risk.
- [32:07]
Bernard Harris Jr.
You said it much better than I could.
- [32:12]
Jonathan Fields
Just reflecting back.
- [32:13]
Bernard Harris Jr.
That is essentially the dialogue, the internal dialogue that I had with myself during that period of time. It's a decision that a lot of us have to make. It's part of life. We all get to these points in our life where we have to make that choice. Do we give up on who we are? Do we set aside our beliefs and the way in which we think in order to acclimate or accommodate some issue or someone? Or do we stand up for what we believe in? And I've always felt that it's important for individuals to stand up for what they believe in.
- [32:52]
Jonathan Fields
You get the nod. Start training, not just for the practice of medicine, supporting the team, but now you are the team. You're one of them. You eventually go up into space as you're on the launch pad, because it didn't really. Because this was shuttle, right. So they launched differently. Right. This was off the.
- [33:15]
Bernard Harris Jr.
It's on the launch pad.
- [33:16]
Jonathan Fields
Right. Once you're up, though, my curiosity is, you know, you hear so many stories of people, and there's an effect called, I'm sure you know, the name of the effect where for the few people that have had the opportunity to go up, look out the window and see, like the blue marble in space, that it is often reported as a profound, profound moment. I'm curious for you, the first time you're able to actually be removed from the planet and then look at a window and see it out there, what that's like for you.
- [33:48]
Bernard Harris Jr.
It might be helpful if I could. If I could describe the ascent ride and then get to your question, which is. So, as you said earlier, I flew the space shuttle, and it is a rocket and a spaceship, you know, kind of all in one. It comes in three major components. The spaceship itself, that is connected to the fuel tank, big orange tank. If you could have that picture in your head, that's called External tank. And then on next to the external tank are two solid rocket motors. Out of that, we call it a launch system transportation system. And that's why you get STs. You may see when astronauts sign their signature, they'll put STS 63 and 55. Those are my missions, right? It's a sophisticated launch system where we have to light the main engines of the shuttle itself first to make sure that they are running at 100% before we light the solid rocket motors. Because once we light the solid rocket motors, they have to burn. They're going to continue to light. We can't control them whatsoever. So at T minus 5 seconds, we light the main engines of the shuttle. They produce one and a half million pounds of thrust. And then at zero, we light the solid rocket motors once we've checked out those systems and they produce another six million pounds. So seven and a half million pounds of thrust catapulting five million pounds of vehicle transportation system into space. Immediately you get pushed back in your seat about two GS, and then it backs down to about a G and a half as we go through what we call first stage, which is T minus 0 to 2 minutes in orbit and also reaching an altitude of 100,000ft. So think about that two minutes. We're already at 100,000ft. We're going to darn fast. About 2,500 miles per hour at that point. Now we're above most of the atmosphere. And so there's no resistance on the vehicle, very limited resistance on the vehicle. So we speed up from that 2500 miles an hour to 5000, 10,000 eventually to 17,500 miles an hour over the next six and a half minutes. So if you're doing the math, it only takes eight and a half minutes to get to orbit. And in that eight and a half minute, we get pushed back in our seat about three and a half times our weight. Is extremely loud and very violent ride on the way into space. And then once you get into space, the main engine is cut off and it goes from this extreme noise and vibration to silence and I can it to stepping. You know, if you were a skater, right, you get up to the skating rink and you're hobbling to get to the skating rink, but then you step on the ice and it's smooth. And that's the way it is. Smooth and silence. And the only way that you know that we're in space or a couple ways is that all the noise and vibration stops. But then everything begins to float in front of you. And you realize that you're in orbit. What an incredible experience. And one of the things I wanted to do, of course, was go in to take a look at that view that you alluded to. And so I went up to the window once I got my space orientation together, and what I saw was this big blue planet as we're traveling around at 17,000 miles an hour. It was just incredible. And by the way, at 17,000 miles an hour, we go around the world every 90 minutes. We get to see a sunset or sunrise every 45 minutes. Pretty awesome.
- [37:28]
Jonathan Fields
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- [38:40]
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- [39:31]
Jonathan Fields
Beyond just the visual experience of seeing this, I'm wondering if it reorients just the way you think about the world.
- [39:43]
Bernard Harris Jr.
Yeah, yeah. That question comes with a lot. It takes me all the way back to the Navajo Nation, you know, this beautiful land and beautiful people who believes in Gaia, believes in the earth and its place in the universe. It takes me back to growing up in the black church and as the Baptist church, and also my family belonged to the AME Church. So I'm a believer, a Christian, grew up in Christian faith. I think at some point in time, I thought maybe that might change my thinking, my belief. But with that background, and not only the experience of first time, you know, seeing the Earth in the order and then on the second mission, actually going outside and having this outside view when it did, it just affirmed my belief that there is a power greater than ourselves. And some people call that God. Some people refer to it as the universe, or just it is. It's whatever it is. I am a firm believer in this universe. I'm a firm believer that we play, as human beings, a critical role in the functioning of this universe. And not only describing what we see as being part of that universe, but we also have a responsibility to take care of Mother Earth because it's going to take care of us.
- [41:27]
Jonathan Fields
I mean, it's so powerful. And at the same time, I wonder when probably the closest anybody joining us in this conversation is going to get is going to be to go on Google Earth and spin it around or to see have a globe. When you were a kid, that was the physical globe. But every representation, pretty much that we see these days has an overlay on it, and that overlay is boundaries. You know, when we look at it, we see states, we see provinces, we see countries, we see designated things that are labeled and named that separate one thing from the other. Oftentimes separate one culture, one population, one community from another. And you know, when you go up and then you look down like you don't have that overlay, and I wonder if that shifts just like the sense of how fictional often that is.
- [42:21]
Bernard Harris Jr.
Yeah. It's a reminder of what we do as human beings, unfortunately, is that we divide ourselves. We look at ourselves differently. We look at our skin color, our texture, the texture of our hair. We look at the place in which we reside over the globe. But in space, you don't see any boundaries and you don't see any designations. I always joke and say, if an alien came down to Earth. I don't think they would sort us out as you're white and you're black or you're Latino or Hispanic or Chinese, whatever. They wouldn't do that. They would just say, you're Earthlings. And either they're going to love us or they're going to hate us. And space reminds us of this global view that we should have of ourselves, that we really are on this spaceship called Mother Earth that's part of the solar system, that's part of this Milky Way galaxy, that's part of a known universe of over 300 billion galaxies out there. And when you have that perspective, we can be really small. If you think about it, we're just a little cog in this whole system. But as I mentioned before, we are a significant cog in that we have been imbued with an intelligence that allows us to be able to describe what we see and be able to utilize the matter and energy that's around us. I always like to remind folks that we did not create anything. Man did not create anything. It was already here. So when we talk about building our airplanes and our spaceships and our cars and our homes, we're taking material that was already here and we're manipulating that. When we describe different aspects of physics and biology, we're only describing what's already here and how it functions. And we have that intelligence to do that. And that's. I'm going to take a leap of faith. Literally going back to what I said before, is that if we can do the things that we can do with our level of intelligence, just think about that, and you think about how large this universe is. There has to be other intelligence out there. And if you simply are not a believer, you don't believe in God whatsoever. You're an atheist. You have to believe in the physical world around you. You have to believe in the order that allows all of us to exist. So there is a higher power that guides us. And not only guides us, but it flows through us. And it is. And we are part of that guidance. And as I said a minute ago, we have a responsibility to uphold our end of this.
- [45:31]
Jonathan Fields
I mean, the way you frame it is really beautiful. And it ties again back to so many indigenous cultures around the world view. One of our primary roles. They kind of look at us. And if they look at a lot of Western culture, which is driven by ownership, they kind of look at us and there is an eyebrow and they're like, we don't actually own anything. We're stewards. Like Our job is to be good stewards of what has already been here and what has come before us and may well outlive us.
- [46:03]
Bernard Harris Jr.
Yes.
- [46:04]
Jonathan Fields
You know, and it's a very different mindset as saying, like, I'm taking ownership of the place that I'm standing, of the home that I have, of the things that. And even the, you know, the things that I create and offer to the world. Like, there's a sense of ownership with all that.
- [46:17]
Bernard Harris Jr.
And.
- [46:18]
Jonathan Fields
And whereas so often the responsibility side of it is more of a stewardship relationship. It's like there are amazing things that have existed long before me and will exist long after me. And I have access to those things. And there are resources that are being provided me that allow me to function and behave and create and make and relate in a way that is incredible in the world. And at the same time, at the end of the day, they're really not mine. My job is to be a good steward of all of that. And we forget that.
- [46:47]
Bernard Harris Jr.
You said it well. And I feel that my job as an astronaut and my job as a physician is to remind people of that, to remind us of that, that we are indeed stewards of this world.
- [47:03]
Jonathan Fields
You mentioned earlier that in your second mission, you had the opportunity to step outside the craft. I can't imagine being in this moment where, okay, so you've now done this once before. So you have a sense for what's coming. Like a lived experience rather than a studied experience, when you actually are in space and you open some form of door and you leave the relative safety of being inside a craft to step into what is functionally some form of abyss. What's that moment like?
- [47:38]
Bernard Harris Jr.
It is a scary moment.
- [47:42]
Jonathan Fields
I would imagine the first time waiting for you to say, I was totally fine. It was like, no problem.
- [47:48]
Bernard Harris Jr.
I usually joke and say, people say, were you scared for a liftoff, or were you scared when you went out and did the spacewalk? And I said, no, I know. I'm an American astronaut. I'm not scared of anything. And that would be a lie. We like to say in the astronaut office that when things like that scares us to death, we say, it gets our attention. And that's our way of saying, this is scary.
- [48:13]
Jonathan Fields
Terrified. Right.
- [48:15]
Bernard Harris Jr.
What are we going to do if this happens? But to get out is also a feat, too. We don this suit, this white suit that you've probably seen us where weighs 350 pounds, of course, didn't weigh anything in space. We get in this suit, and when I was doing my spacewalk, we did a four hour in suit pre breathe of 100% oxygen to prevent us from developing the bins decompression sickness. Because we're going from high to a lower atmosphere. We go from 14.7 down to 4.3 is what the suit is. And an interesting thing happens when you go down at lower pressure is that you're not moving a lot of air around. And so your voice changes, it gets lower because you're not. And so one of the things we train, that we train for is that we always designate when we're talking to mission control. We say who we are. EV1, EV2, right. Extravehicular activity is EVA. And so EB1, and that's so they can tell us apart. So we got the go for the eva. And I remember opening up the hatch and the first thing I saw was a hatch opening full of Earth whizzing by at 17,000 miles an hour. And for a moment I was unsteady because that movement, even though I had been in space for four days, just being outside and seeing that movement got your attention. And then the second thing is that you're pointed to the Earth. And it felt like by opening up the hatch that the Earth's gravity was going to pull me out. I was falling. And the only way that I can describe it is if you were on a ridge or on the edge of a building and you walk up to the edge of the building, the sensation that you get as you're walking up to the edge of the building and seeing that height makes your heart rate go low, which it did. But then you realize you're not falling. You're not going to drift away from the spaceship as long as you're tethered. And you could just take it all in. And it was wonderful time. We spent about five hours, just under five hours on the spacewalk.
- [50:35]
Jonathan Fields
And to be clear, the craft is not only moving at 17,000 plus miles per hour, you just as an individual floating in space outside of the craft, are moving at that same speed.
- [50:47]
Bernard Harris Jr.
They are. And just for your audience that are scientists, right, as long as we stay at that speed, as long as we stay in proximity of the spaceship, we will stay at that speed. Speed. But let's say if we do a spacewalk and we use a jetpack, which we don't use anymore, and we pull away, if we get outside of about 100ft, 150ft, we will actually be in a different orbit. And now gravity is going to behave on us because we have a lower mass. We're going to begin to slow down and the spaceship is going to continue to go at the speed that it's doing and we'll pull apart. And when I ever describe that, people say, well, why don't they just turn around and come pick you up? Well, think about that. That's what, £450,000 moving in one direction. It takes a lot of energy to come back and get you. You can't do that. So what is the message there is don't release the spaceship, stay tethered. In fact, we have two tethers. When we're out doing the spacewalk.
- [51:53]
Jonathan Fields
When you return from that spacewalk and then you return back down to Earth from that experience, are you changed in any meaningful way?
- [52:03]
Bernard Harris Jr.
Oh, I think we all fall in love with planet Earth. We fall in love with this notion that we are one people, no matter what part of the globe that we come from. That we should be about humanity and not necessarily about where we come from, the communities in which we come from, or maybe say a little differently, that we can come from separate communities, separate countries, separate ethnicities, but we have this single thing that holds us together and that is our humanity. And if we can remember that, and the archaeologists will tell us that, you know, we all came from the same genetic pool. So that tells me that we're all related in some way, in some fashion.
- [52:57]
Jonathan Fields
One of the things that you speak and write about and you sort of like through story been referencing it here, is this interesting relationship between often fear of the unknown and stepping into something resembling our calling, who we feel like we are in the truest parts of ourselves and stepping into a place of honoring that within ourselves and also taking action to build potential around it. It's an interesting dance.
- [53:29]
Bernard Harris Jr.
It is, it is. In the book I have this saying that I go into detail about, and that is that we are infinite beings with infinite possibilities. And just that term itself means three things for me. That we were all born multipotential with the ability to do anything that we want to do. We have that potential that we're all born multi talented. We come in this world with unique talents. Some might say, well, it's genetic, it's behavioral, whatever, but I say it's also intellectual because we can use our brain and learn more talents. But the thing to me, it's the most important thing as an individual is on this planet is to realize that we are born for a reason. I firmly believe that each of us have our own calling and we have to figure out what that calling is. We may have callings with an S. And we have to figure those things out. But I can guarantee you, if you figure out what that calling is and you're willing to work hard for that calling, you'll have the greatest success that you can have as an individual. One of the things that you could imagine being in the different professions that I've been in, in medicine and astronaut school and business school, that you always find yourself competing with those around you. I discovered in medical school that I needed to stop that or I would not be happy at all. Because there's always going to be someone bigger, better than you, or smarter than you are, and that you should be using your own self as the milestone, as that yardstick in determining. And as long as that yardstick keeps moving, as long as I'm saying better tomorrow than I am today, I will continue to grow in the person that I ultimately should be and will be.
- [55:25]
Jonathan Fields
Beautiful feels like a good place for us to come full circle in this conversation as well. So in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?
- [55:38]
Bernard Harris Jr.
Fulfill your destiny. That is your duty as an individual to discover who you really are, to spend that time that's necessary. And some people don't want to do the work or maybe in a situation where they are not for because of external sources may not be able to do the work. But when that work gets done, we can get past that and you do that work, then that's where you can become the complete person that you ought to be.
- [56:14]
Jonathan Fields
Thank you. Hey, if you love this conversation, say that you'll also enjoy the conversation we had with Katherine Sullivan about her journey to space. You can find a link to that episode in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields editing helped by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Christopher Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did. Because you're still listening here. Do me a personal favor, a seven second favor. Share it with just one person. I mean, if you want to share it with more, that's awesome too. But just one person. Even then, invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered. To reconnect and explore ideas that really matter. Because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm John Fields signing off for Good Life project.
- [57:24]
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Bernard Harris Jr.
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- [58:05]
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