Good Life Project — Episode Summary

Episode Title:

Attention Grown-ups: If You’re Not Playing, You’re Likely Paying a Big Price
Guest: Cas Holman
Host: Jonathan Fields
Date: December 11, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the crucial role of play in adult life, challenging the commonly held belief that play is merely for children. Host Jonathan Fields is joined by Cas Holman, renowned toy designer, founder of Heroes Will Rise, and author of How Play Shifts Our Thinking, Inspires Connection and Sparks Creativity. Together, they explore why grown-ups often neglect play, how it can foster resilience and creativity, and how to meaningfully integrate playfulness back into adult routines—especially in uncertain and stressful times.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Do Adults Struggle With Play?

Timestamps: 05:26–09:32

• Cultural conditioning: Adults are taught to value productivity and correctness from an early age, learning to equate importance with outcome and seriousness.
  • “I think everyone has their own relationship to cultural norms in our schooling...we aspire to be taken seriously. That means to not. We learn to not play.” —Cas (06:16)
• Suppressing the “play voice”: Although adults still possess an inner “play voice,” it is routinely ignored in favor of being “adult.”
  • “We have an inner play voice that's like, beckoning...but we just kind of ignore it or think it's not for now.” —Cas (07:27)
• Host Jonathan’s take: Admiration for playful gestures in others, but personal fear or resistance to embodying them.
  • “We see those scenes at the movies and we're like, oh, that's awesome. I want to be that person...And yet when we step back into our day to day lives, we're terrified of being that person.” —Jonathan (07:39)

2. What Is Play for Adults?

Timestamps: 08:14–11:04

• Not just child’s play or whimsy: Play can be subtle—imaginative daydreaming, observations, watching birds, or people-watching.
  • “Play can be quite pensive. When I'm walking my dog, I'll notice in people's windows...and I think that's kind of play, like that's imaginative play or attention play.” —Cas (08:37)
• Distinguishing play from whimsy: Whimsy is a characteristic of playfulness, light-hearted and joyful, but play for adults is multifaceted and not always obvious.

3. How Productivity Crushes Play

Timestamps: 11:04–14:26

• Productivity-centric values: As children, we transition from free exploration to focusing on productivity, achievement, and earning—often at the expense of play.
  • “We value things that are connected to earning...the need to pay the rent and buy groceries, that feels like the thing we need most for survival. And everything else kind of falls in line with that.” —Cas (11:08)
• Societal structures: Cultures increasingly deprioritize play as a person ages—except in exceptional contexts (parades, festivals, music events).

4. False Dichotomy: Play vs. Productivity

Timestamps: 13:52–16:08

• Coexistence is possible, even beneficial: Cas argues that play and productivity are not mutually exclusive, especially when focusing on “free play.”
  • “People who reach out and they say, I really miss playing. Like, I know there's some part of me that would benefit from the same type of play I had as a kid.” —Cas (14:37)
• Intrinsic vs. extrinsic motivation: Free play is driven by curiosity and personal exploration, not external rewards or gamified achievement systems.

5. Gamification and Adult Play

Timestamps: 16:08–20:20 and 23:28–27:16

• Gamification ≠ Play: Gamification adds extrinsic motivators (badges, points), but often disconnects people from genuine enjoyment and self-driven curiosity.
  • “A lot of the gamifying isn't setting out to make anybody's life better...In fact, in that scenario, it's probably going to make the coworkers because they're now competitive.” —Cas (25:25)
• Competition can harm creativity: Research shows that competition reduces enjoyment and creativity; removing judgment and external stakes leads to greater engagement and satisfaction.
  • “Knowing that work was gonna be judged or anytime there was competition, the creativity took a huge hit.” —Cas (26:41)

6. Success, Judgment, and Ambition in Play

Timestamps: 27:16–34:04

• Reframing success: Rather than striving to “win,” success can mean simply continuing to do something you love.
  • “If you love drawing, keep drawing...If it's something that you find fulfillment and reframe success and stop looking for it to be good or right or...it has to be something you're good at. It doesn't.” —Cas (28:56)
• Release judgment: Letting go of self-critique and concern over how others perceive you is vital to authentic playfulness.
  • “Release judgment of yourself, but also release the assumption that others are going to judge you because you're an adult who makes bad drawings.” —Cas (29:59)

7. Play and Vulnerability—Navigating Internal and Social Barriers

Timestamps: 31:57–35:58

• Ambition and mastery can hijack joy: Over time, interests can be overtaken by competitiveness or the need for mastery, which if unchecked, can diminish enjoyment. Awareness and periodic self-check-ins can keep motivations healthy.
  • “With a playful mindset, what would inevitably happen...I'll have that instinct. And then so I'll say, like, wow, I'm noticing that I'm getting kind of, like, embarrassingly attached to the fact that my score is not.” —Cas (33:00)
• Play can be awkward, messy, and uncertain: Being playful often means embracing vulnerability and being okay with not knowing the outcome, or even being “bad” at something.

8. Creating the Conditions for Play: Tools for Adults

Timestamps: 36:02–40:06 & 54:46–56:41

• Cas’s Three Elements for Reclaiming Playfulness:
  1. Reframe Success: Focus on the process and the joy itself.
  2. Release Judgment: Let go of self-critique and fear of external evaluation.
  3. Embrace Possibility: Step into uncertainty with curiosity.
  • “A playful mindset means that you're coming in with kind of a what if? Sort of attitude...reset. There's something else here.” —Cas (40:06)
• Everyday opportunities: Play doesn’t have to be extravagant—try observing surroundings, taking a new route, or letting yourself daydream.

9. Resilience, Uncertainty & Play as Protest

Timestamps: 42:42–47:49

• Play in hard times: When rigidity and fear abound, play becomes a microact of rebellion and agency—restoring a sense of control and spontaneity.
  • “If I proactively say I'm going to take a moment out of my day right now and do something that drops me into this state of play, that's me saying...I still have, like, this microdose of agency.” —Jonathan (43:37)
• Historical context—Play as resilience and protest: Within marginalized communities, play can be a powerful tool for resistance and connection.
  • “Queer people have always used play as protest...We play, we dance and gather and dress up and we mourn and we celebrate.” —Cas (43:43)

10. Play as a Tool for Connection and Collaboration

Timestamps: 46:09–51:24

• Collective play builds understanding: Collaborative creativity disarms hierarchy and fosters empathy.
  • “In play, we understand people in ways that are so nuanced and human that we haven't added structure and rules and all of our other complicated, grownup ways to.” —Cas (44:27)
• Intergenerational play: Cas describes a United Nations workshop pairing 8-year-olds and seniors, where play promoted equality and genuine connection.
  • “We brought Together, we had 8 year olds and people who were between 65 and 82 years old...the most powerful moments were when they were making things together.” —Cas (49:24)

11. Adult Play Types

Timestamps: 51:24–54:46

• Redefining adult play: Play takes different forms at different life stages; what’s risky or playful for a child differs from an adult.
  • “One of my adult play types is behavior play or misbehavior play. And I kind of started to realize that all playing for an adult is misbehaving, which is just such a mess.” —Cas (53:07)
• Play as “misbehavior”: In adulthood, even small acts of visible play can run counter to social norms—making them courageous and important.

12. First Steps: How to Start Playing Again

Timestamps: 54:46–56:58

• Start small: Play doesn’t need to be scheduled or grand—inject novelty and lightness into daily routines (on your commute, while cooking, etc.).
• Notice the urge to escape: Instead of checking your phone during idle moments, observe your surroundings, embrace curiosity, and resist self-consciousness.
  • “Let yourself, you know, kind of embrace the possibility of a new route...Look up from your phone and people watch…” —Cas (55:24)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We have an inner play voice that's like, beckoning...but we just kind of ignore it or think it's not for now.” —Cas (07:27)
• “Free play specifically is about saying, what do I need right now? What do I want? And to be in touch with that is actually, like, helping us at times, like, be attuned to our own needs.” —Cas (18:65)
• “Gamification isn't necessarily about the individual, and it's definitely not about play.” —Cas (26:56)
• “I want people to tap into your inner you now and play like that. Find where your play is now, and maybe it relates to how you played as a child, but it's probably changed a bit.” —Cas (54:13)
• “Make decisions and find purpose that gives you meaning.” —Cas, on living a good life (57:18)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 05:26–09:32 — Why adults struggle with play and suppress the “play voice.”
• 14:26–16:08 — The shift from free play to productivity and extrinsic motivation.
• 23:28–27:16 — The pitfalls of gamification and competition in workplaces.
• 28:07–29:59 — Reframing success and letting go of judgment.
• 33:00–34:04 — How ambition and competition covertly erode playfulness.
• 40:06 — Practical strategies: How to reset and reframe setbacks playfully.
• 42:42–43:37 — Play as agency and protest in hard times.
• 49:24 — Intergenerational play and non-hierarchical collaboration.
• 54:46–55:24 — First steps for integrating more play into your life.
• 57:18 — Cas’s definition of a good life.

Actionable Takeaways

• Notice small opportunities to inject play and curiosity into your routine.
• Reframe what counts as success—prioritize intrinsic enjoyment over achievement.
• Release judgment from yourself and others—especially around behaviors that seem “un-adult.”
• Embrace vulnerability and uncertainty—they are the soil in which real play grows.
• Make room for collective play as well as solo exploration.
• Remember that reclaiming playfulness is not another task—it's a way of being.

For more on adult play, creativity, and designing a good life, check out Cas Holman’s book and revisit related Good Life Project episodes.