How to Stop Feeling Like It's You Against the World | Scott Barry Kaufman

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Good Life Project

Episode: How to Stop Feeling Like It's You Against the World | Scott Barry Kaufman
Host: Jonathan Fields
Guest: Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Date: September 8, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Jonathan Fields welcomes Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, a renowned psychologist and Columbia University professor, to discuss the difference between having legitimately been a victim and living with a “victim mindset.” They explore how perceiving oneself as powerless can hinder growth, but also how recognizing it can be the first catalyst toward self-empowerment. The conversation dives into topics like cognitive distortions, the value of reframing boredom, developing healthy boundaries, and practical ways to shift from helplessness to gratitude and agency.

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Main Themes & Purpose

• Distinguishing victimhood from a victim mindset
• Psychological patterns that perpetuate helplessness
• Mindful practices for reclaiming agency
• The surprising power and opportunity in boredom
• Finding gratitude and redefining self-esteem
• Setting boundaries and navigating people-pleasing
• Embracing multiple selves and inner parts
• Practical, compassionate steps toward self-empowerment

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Victim vs. Victim Mindset

[04:39–06:11]

• Victimhood: Experiencing genuine adversity or harm (abuse, trauma, collective events like a pandemic).

• Victim Mindset: “When you stay there perpetually and blame all your current problems on that one thing... you stop taking responsibility and might forget you have agency left.”
  — Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman [04:39]

• Kaufman stresses compassion for those stuck in this mindset and warns against the double burden of shame society often tacks on.

Notable Quote:

“Sooner or later, you have to give up all hope for a better past.”
— Irving Yalom, cited by Scott Barry Kaufman [07:00]

2. Recognizing the Victim Mindset

[07:21–10:44]

• Feeling fundamentally and recurrently stuck in life is often a clue.

• The mindset can appear both in those who have truly suffered and those who play the role for attention.

• “It’s all too easy to slip into that way of thinking—it’s a very human thing… we all fall prey to it every now and then, even during the day.”
  — Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman [08:54]

• Emotional identification and cognitive distortions (like assuming malice when none is present) keep people trapped.

Notable Quote:

“One big [cognitive distortion] is seeing malevolent intent in ambiguous stimuli… assuming the worst about people even when you have no information.”
— Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman [10:02]

3. Is the Victim Mindset Always Dysfunctional?

[12:12–13:23]

• While it might provide attention or temporary harmony, on net, "compared to what I call an empowerment mindset, it often leads to a sense of helplessness... not authentic connection.”
  — Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman [12:12]

4. Moving from Stuckness to Empowerment

[13:32–15:39]

• Mindful interruption and redirection of energy: noticing when you slip into comparisons (e.g., seeing someone else’s success on social media), and intentionally focusing on your unique contributions.
• “Catch yourself mindfully going into that headspace and not spiral downward, but say, ‘Huh, I can see where this is going. Instead, I'll focus on what makes me unique.’”
  — Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman [14:30]

5. Boredom as a Gateway to Possibility

[15:39–21:21]

• Boredom is redefined not as emptiness but as “the state of infinite possibility” because all options are open.
• In compulsive/addictive states, focus narrows to a single goal, reducing true possibility.
• “When you're in the state of boredom, you're actually in a greater state of possibility than when you're in your addicted state.”
  — Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman [17:04]

Memorable Moment:

“We've become so used to anxiety that we treat the absence of anxiety as boredom—but it's actually peace.”
— Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman [20:27]

6. Self-Esteem and Its Paradox

[25:54–27:42]

• Low self-esteem isn't always negative; “there are benefits of feeling bad about yourself,” like humility, learning, or motivating honest self-improvement.
• Overprotecting one's self-image can prevent growth or reparative action.

7. Social Judgement, Uncertainty, and Pleasing Others

[27:43–34:32]

• Much anxiety comes not from choices but fear of how others will perceive us if we’re wrong.
• People-pleasing can become compulsive self-erasure; healthy selfishness (assertiveness) is necessary.
• “You are people pleasing whenever you’re totally putting your own needs aside… in a way that causes you harm. You’re allowed to stand up for yourself.”
  — Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman [30:36]

8. Setting Boundaries & The Emotional Toll

[33:00–36:14]

• Both speakers share about establishing boundaries, especially in public-facing roles, and the inevitable tension of wanting to help while preserving personal well-being.
• Being public about boundaries can depersonalize refusals and foster healthier interactions.

9. From Helplessness to Empowerment

[41:47–48:15]

• Shine attention on unbroken parts of yourself (“finding the light within”).

• Value isn't only in “doing,” but also in creating or experiencing joy — “The key to life is experiencing life, being grateful for consciousness… not everything has to be goaled.”
  — Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman [44:56]

• Simple acts or shifts in energy—from a smile in a coffee shop, to learning magic “to bring others joy”—empower us even in hard times.

10. Symphony of Selves: IFS and Integration

[48:52–54:58]

• “We have a symphony of selves.” — Not one “real” self, but a constellation of parts or energies, some more centered than others.

• The rise of Internal Family Systems (IFS) and parts work: useful even if not “scientifically proven,” as it resonates with people’s experience of their own inner world.

  • “If you can really make deep contact with a particular self and treat it with tenderness, there is a real softening.”
    — Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman [51:58]

• Equanimity is not just outward calm, but deep integration with all our internal parts.

11. Shifting Mindset: Gratefulness over Gratitude

[56:25–58:52]

• “Gratefulness is an orientation towards life... no matter what happens, you can kind of see, what’s the upside here?”
  — Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman [56:25]

• Small, immediate shifts, like reframing “I have to” into “I get to,” can quickly change your emotional state.

Notable Moment:

“It’s possible. …Try it, you’ll see. It is that easy.”
— Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman [58:42]

12. Practical First Steps

[59:17–61:16]

• Self-awareness is the first win. “Catch yourself when you start to enter this mindset… ask, am I overly personalizing? Am I overgeneralizing?”
• Gentle self-challenge and lower expectations: “Look, if you think you’re supposed to be happy all the time, or that feeling anxiety is a crisis… as opposed to, okay, I’m feeling a human emotion now… traffic sucks, this too will pass.”
  — Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman [60:48]

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Sooner or later, you have to give up all hope for a better past.”
  — Irving Yalom, cited by Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman [07:00]

• “It’s a nerdy ass way of saying you assume the worst about people even without any evidence.”
  — Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman [10:02]

• “We've become so used to anxiety that we treat the absence of anxiety as boredom—but it's actually peace.”
  — Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman [20:27]

• “The key to life is experiencing life, being grateful for the consciousness we’ve been given… not everything has to be goaled.”
  — Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman [44:56]

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Important Timestamps

• Victim vs. Victim Mindset: 04:39–06:11
• Recognizing Victim Mindset Patterns: 07:21–10:44
• Paradox of Boredom / Infinite Possibility: 15:39–21:21
• Self-Esteem Reframed: 25:54–27:42
• Healthy Selfishness & Boundaries: 30:36–36:14
• Empowerment and the “Light Within”: 41:47–44:56
• Multiplying Selves and Equanimity: 48:52–55:57
• Practical Mindset Shifts (“I get to”): 56:25–58:52
• First Steps When Feeling Stuck: 59:17–61:16

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Conclusion: Living a Good Life

[61:45]
"Living a good life is finding ways to experience joy and to share that joy with others.”
— Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman

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Tone & Language

The conversation is warm, candid, and compassionate, with both host and guest weaving in humor (“nerdy ass way…”), humility, and lived experience. Both encourage listeners to challenge their inner narrative—not with harsh judgment, but with creativity, gratitude, and gentle self-questioning.

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For Further Reflection

• Consider when you last noticed a victim mindset within yourself. What language could you shift in your self-talk?
• Where in your life can boredom be reclaimed as possibility?
• What’s one boundary you might set this week—not to cut off others, but to honor your own well-being?

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For more enriching episodes, check out the linked conversation with Brené Brown about vulnerability and creative growth.

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Transcript

[Jonathan Fields]

So have you ever had that moment where you just kind of feel like the world, or maybe in one person or community was kind of conspiring against you or holding your back or keeping you stuck or trapped or small? Kind of like you're a victim without a whole lot of power to change things? If so, you are not alone. But sometimes there is a meaningful difference between feeling trapped or beaten down and the actual fact of our experience. And that's at the heart of today's conversation about the surprising difference between being a victim and living with what psychology now calls a victim mindset and what we can do about it. Think about those moments when you catch yourself feeling like the world is against you, like just every circumstance is a conspiracy to hold you back. What if that feeling itself could become a signal not of hopelessness, but of an opportunity to transform your entire relationship with life's challenges? And this is not also saying put your head in the sand and ignore the reality of circumstance? And what if boredom, of all things, could be a gateway to unlimited possibility along the way? So my guest today is Dr. Scott Berry Kaufman, a professor at Columbia University and one of the world's most cited researchers on intelligence, creativity, and human potential. As director of the center for Human Potential and founder of Self Actualization Coaching, Scott has dedicated his career to understanding how we can realize our fullest potential. In his latest book, Rise, Overcome a Victim Mindset, Empower yourself, and realize your full potential, he offers a really fresh perspective on moving from victimhood to empowerment. One of the things that really fascinated me in our conversation was Scott's surprising take on boredom as a state of infinite possibility rather than limitation. We explore how changing just one word in how you talk to yourself can dramatically shift your entire experience of daily challenges. And you're going to want to hear his perspective on why lowering your expectations about life might actually be a key to finding greater joy. So excited to share this provocative conversation with you. Hi, I'm Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project.

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[Jonathan Fields]

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Kaufman, SBK Scott, my man, Good to be hanging out with you again. It's been a couple of years since we sat down with Mike's in front of us. You've been focusing on something that I think so many people are feeling in so many some way these days. I almost don't know somebody that hasn't dropped into this state of mind. It's this notion of feeling like you're a victim. And really we're going to drop in and explore that in a lot of different ways. But I want to make a distinction because you tease out this distinction in the beginning and it's the difference between victim mindset and being a victim. Tease this out for me a little bit.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, I think that it's very important first of all to distinguish between these things. Having been the recipient of a terrible event, it can be anything. Abuse in childhood, it can be going through a pandemic thing. We kind of went through a collective situation there where we're all victims for sure of something that was out of our control. But the victim mindset is when you stay there perpetually and and you blame all Your current problems on that one thing that happened to you, and you stop taking responsibility. And even you might forget that you have agency left, and you stop trying to be productive and hopeful. It can lead to a very dark place. It can lead to a real sense of helplessness, and we can forget the resiliency that we actually have within us.

[Jonathan Fields]

So does a victim mindset always get precipitated by actually being a victim?

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

No. It's interesting because I cover different types in my book. It's possible to have not been. It's possible to play the victim. That's a thing people do, that people do that people play the victim to get attention, to get social status, get rewards. I tend to have less empathy for those people than I do for those who have really had, truly had horrible things happen to them. And the only thing they know how to cope is by having a victim mindset. And I want to show, compassionately, I want to show people that it's not their only option to cope.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah, I mean, I think that word compassionate is really important in this conversation, too.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Extremely.

[Jonathan Fields]

Because so often, you know, like, somebody. Maybe they are a victim, maybe they aren't a natural victim, but somehow they end up in this place where they feel like the world is against me, like, everything's conspiring against me. And we tend to look at that.

Person and if we can't point to.

Something objectively that put them there. Or maybe it was like a decade ago. Like, there's this tendency to sort of, like, even if you don't verbalize or say this to the person, to kind of be like, seriously, still, like. Like, can't you get. And there's, like, there's a level of shame and blame that we tend to sort of, like, offer into the.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

They know it, they feel it. They're not. They don't like it themselves. I mean, every time they hear themselves saying, you know, in conversation, oh, sorry, I can't go into Starbucks. My trauma when I was 3. And, like, they know in their own bones we don't need to, like, doubly shame them. They already feel this sense of shame, and they want an escape. I mean, so many of these individuals feel stuck and imprisoned in their past. Irving Yalom has this wonderful quote. Sooner or later, you have to give up all hope for a better past.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah, I love that quote. How do we know if we're in this?

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

If we're in it?

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah, somebody's listening to this, and maybe they're on the other side where, like, all these people, like, oh, yeah, they're that person. Or maybe somebody's listening to this and they're like, huh, how do I know if I'm actually walking around carrying a victim mindset myself?

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Well, really, my book is about. It's funny. I'm trying to get the subtitle changed for the reprint edition. Really, my book is about the science of self empowerment, and a lot of the interviews really do focus on the victimhood part. But really what I wrote is a book about how to harness the most optimal mindset for your own success, no matter what you've been through in your life. So, yes, it is about overcoming a victim mindset, but I wouldn't. I don't want to get so hung up on diagnosing you figuring out, like, precisely whether or not you have the victim mindset. Look, you know, you have the victim. You know that you're stuck. If you feel stuck in life, you know you're stuck.

[Jonathan Fields]

Right.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

You know, and there's a whole science. Yeah.

[Jonathan Fields]

Just to push back a little. Is that true? If you don't know that you really. You really do know. I mean, if. Do you walk around? Because do you walk around? Is there a voice inside of everyone who's experiencing this where they feel like the world is against them, where they're like, they really know it's not against him. It's like, if I'm the single unifying factor in all these different circumstances, me. Or are there folks who walk around and legitimately, they're like, I really do feel like the world is conspiring against me at every place in my life, and I have no idea why. And it's not me.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

It's all too easy to slip into that way of thinking, which I think is. It's a very human thing. And I want to argue that we all fall prey to it every now and then, even throughout the course of our day, we might, you know, we're looking for someone to curse. Curse the gods, curse the person in front of us, the car in front of us, whatever.

[Jonathan Fields]

If you're in New York, you're cursing. Everyone knows.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah. In New York, everyone's cursing each other. And it's. It's very. It's a very human thing. I wanted to this book to not be about, like, you're just. Just about your ex boyfriend or it's just about your mother. It's. It's our potential to kind of hold ourselves back also through our own being a victim to ourselves. So you know that you're harnessing this mindset when you. A You take your emotions way too seriously, and you can become a victim to your emotions. I talk about, you know, you identify with them, you feel a little anxiety, and then you think, oh, I'm an anxious person, and that's holding you back. You're becoming. You're victimizing yourself. Cognitive distortions as well. There are a whole bunch of ways in which. The way that we interpret situations.

[Jonathan Fields]

So give me an example of cognitive distortion.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

One big one associated with the victim mindset is seeing malevolent intent in ambiguous stimuli, which is a nerdy ass way. A nerdy ass way. What does that actually mean, the phrase nerdy ass? It's a nerdy ass way of saying that you. You assume the worst about people, even in situations where you have no information one way or the other. You know, and I think we do that a lot. You know, if, like, we smile at someone, they don't smile back at us. Let's say they just have a neutral facial expression. We just. That's an act of aggression. Comedians feel that a lot when they're on stage. Like, even if there's just neutral facial expressions, they feel like that's personal.

[Jonathan Fields]

Right. It's like the audience is against me.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah. But it's very easy to kind of fall prey to and personalize things in our daily life constantly. If someone doesn't text us back when we want to, you know, we want to have some semblance of control, but we can't really have a control over other humans or whether or not someone's interested in us, whether or not. There are a lot of things that it's very easy to fall into that victim mindset. Right. But it's a lot harder, but more rewarding to not fall into that mindset and to sort of even feel a sense of empowerment over it not affecting you so much at a personal level and being able to handle rejection and being able to flex those muscles of resiliency where when it's 108 degree day and you're stuck in traffic, you don't curse the gods, but you think of what you're grateful for in your life that's going well. I mean, there are so many things that are much more empowering than.

[Jonathan Fields]

And I want to get into the empowerment side of this.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Sure.

[Jonathan Fields]

But I do want to linger on this a little bit more also, because I'm trying to really understand the mindset. And also I want folks joining us to understand that this is one of those there, but for God's grace, go I, and I will be that person. At some point, and I may be in and out of it on a regular basis. Rather than saying, I mean, is having a victim mindset a dysfunction?

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

I think that it can lead to dysfunction in our lives. And that's where I see it often heading. Not in and of itself. In fact, someone asked me a really interesting question the other day. She said, when is it good to have a victim mindset? And I was like, okay, you know what? I like the way you think about this. It's not maybe always bad, but I think that on net, compared to what I call an empowerment mindset, it often leads to a sense of helplessness. It leads to a sense of a lack of agency. Agency. It could give us a false sense of harmony in the moment. It could make us feel like we're getting attention that we desperately crave. But it's not authentic connection. It's not long lasting connection. People tend to. I really believe in the goodness of humans. I think that when someone signals victimhood, I think that most humans really care about that and they really want to jump in and help that impulse to.

[Jonathan Fields]

Sort of like the compassionate impulse.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yes. But I also. Yes. And I also think that humans at the end of the day want to be seen for something deeper than just their victimhood. Does that make sense?

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah, no, it totally does. I mean, then, like, what does the victim mindset want?

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, I think that attention is a big one. And I think. And help. Help. You know, sometimes when people have been through terrible things, it's so natural to want to signal, you know, I need resources, I need help. And in a lot of ways, that's a beautiful thing. The victim mindset I make very clear is a generalized mindset. So it's not about a specific event that you try to get help for.

[Jonathan Fields]

Right.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

You know, it's. It's a. Just a total mentality that we could snap into where we suddenly see. We get paranoid. We kind of see the world is against us. It can happen if we are not reaching our goals, how we want to. It can, we can, we can feel it in an instant. Going on Instagram and you're scrolling and let's see, you see, like, you know, Andrew Huberman or someone doing better than you, like, oh, God damn Andrew Huberman. Do you know what I mean? And then you start to get in a victim mindset. I don't know where that example came.

[Jonathan Fields]

From, but two podcasters said you talk to.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

But do you know what I mean? It's so much healthier to catch yourself mindfully going into that Headspace and not spiral downward, but say, huh. Okay, I can see where this is going. And instead I'm gonna focus my day on what makes me unique, what my most unique center of being is, what is it within? What's my unique value proposition in the world? What can I do? Even in the smallest way. Just call my mom and see how she's doing today to help me appreciate again that I'm still alive. The people I love are alive. There's so many things to get out of that it doesn't lead down the best pathway. Does that make sense?

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah. So it's really interesting because the way you're describ and tell me if this makes sense to you.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Sure.

[Jonathan Fields]

That within the experience of being a victim or feeling like you are a victim, whether objectively you are or not, that there is a certain energy to that feeling. And we can use that energy to either deepen into a place of stuckness or almost like activation energy to somehow act in a more constructive way to bring us out of it. Does that make sense?

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think being in touch with these different energies through a regular mindfulness practice and, and play and nonjudgmentally playing around with the different energies. I love, love doing that. I just took a 21 day course by my friend Corey Muscaira, who I love, Corey I can't talk more positively about. And I just took a 21, I take all his classes.

[Jonathan Fields]

He's like a walking hug with wisdom.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

I agree. He's one of the most wise individuals I've ever known. And I just took this 21 day course on overcoming your compulsions and your addictions. And what I really like about his approach, and it's one that I would like to say is my approach too is I believe, an unconditional positive regard, which is Carl Rogers letting people experience things as valid, non judgmentally and kind of figure out for themselves what works and what doesn't work. But playing around with different energies is really beneficial. So I practiced playing around with getting into some things that I feel like I'm afraid I might be having compulsions and kind of seeing how that feels. And it feels much more restricted. It feels much more like my options are limited. But then I started playing around in the space of embracing boredom and started to reframe boredom as actually the greatest source of possibility. You know, starting to love boredom. When you're in the state of boredom, you're actually in a greater state of possibility than when you're addicted in your addicted state.

[Jonathan Fields]

That makes Sense.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

And that was a huge rev. That was a huge insight for me.

[Jonathan Fields]

But I don't want to skip over that because that's. What you just said is, like, astonishingly mind blowing, actually.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Mind blowing.

[Jonathan Fields]

Tease it out a little bit more.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah. When you're in this compulsive or an addictive state, all your options actually narrow to your system only wanting to reach a very, very narrow goal, and you suddenly don't care about anything else in this world. And that's not the state of pure possibility, pure bliss, inner peace. Wanting something so desperately that you can't bear taking your attention away from it is not the path to inner peace.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah. And also, like you said, it narrows the field so much that possibilities off the table. If there's one thing, one focus, one.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Choice, that's the only thing that you must have.

[Jonathan Fields]

Right. But what's so interesting there is that if you said to somebody, what's the opposite of that? I doubt many people would say boredom.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Right, Right. They might say aliveness or excitement.

[Jonathan Fields]

Right. Which is more than the next step after boredom.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

It's a great point. You know, Corey has this example of his girlfriend or his wife is now his wife walking past a bakery, and his wife, Brianna. Her name's Brianna, was like, you know what, Cory? Let's go in the bakery and not buy anything, but let's smell everything. And in a way, that's boredom. That's like, oh, that sounds boring. But the more you can kind of live in that space of, mmm, I wonder what that would taste. Sometimes that's more exciting, ultimately, than the feeling you have eating the big donut and all the consequences that come from that afterwards. Sometimes you can actually just. If you just reframe the situation and reframe what you would typically consider boredom into something else. Because I'm reframing boredom. Boredom is getting more excited. Boredom itself is getting more exciting now that I'm reframing it.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah. So reframing it as a space where there is no clear direction. There's only possibility.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

There's no compulsion. You know what? I could go in that direction, but I also could go in that direction. I'd be equally okay going in that direction. I'd be okay if that direction. I didn't go in that direction. I'd be okay with that. And that's a sense of like, okay, it's boring. Okay. I'm not jumping into anything. But there is a kind of peace that comes along with that that I think is underestimated.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah. And a piece that we have all but annihilated from our lives was sort of like digital distraction. The minute we hear it, there's even a hint of boredom. It's like, what can I reach to sort of like. And we can reach for something all the time. Like 247 now.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

24 7.

[Jonathan Fields]

I mean. But it's a really interesting sort of hypothesis to say that by removing boredom from our experience, by basically saying every time you're online, every time you're in a stoplight, every time you're in the bathroom, like, there's something right there where you're immediately distracting yourself. We're not just sort of treating the anxiety of the moment, but we're actually doing something which is taking us out of a state that would open the door to unlimited possibilities.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yes. And I love. Yes. Ending things. We've become so used to the feeling of anxiety that we treat the absence of anxiety as boredom. But it's not actually boredom, if you actually think about it. It's peace. And we're so uncomfortable with peace. And I think really kind of changing. It's game changing. If you can shift your relationship to the feeling of peace and not conflate it with boredom. But now when I have a moment where there's not a lot of chaos going on around me, I take a deep breath and I'm like, oh, this is good. No, I like this. This is what I actually want. And I don't know, I think it's a pretty radical for a lot of people who maybe, like me, you know, have a history of being workaholics. You know, it's. It's a. It's a kind of a. Not kind of. It is a better place to live.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah. And it's a place that is not really centered or valued.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

It's not valued. It's like.

[Jonathan Fields]

It's like, if you're bored, do something.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Fields]

You know, like. Or how could you be bored with so much to do but, you know, like, it really is that space. I mean, how would you distinguish between something like boredom and meditation?

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Meditation, for a lot of people is boring. And I think they don't realize that's the point. They're like, oh, this is. This is boring. I can't do this. And you actually. It's kind of. In a way, it's a practice to get comfortable with boredom. It's like you're literally building your boredom muscles, your tolerance of boredom muscles, so you can have greater flexibility to move in a direction you want. Ultimately, meditation gives you freedom, you know, but it might not seem that way. You know when you're just sitting there and like you're thinking, all these thoughts are in your head, like, oh my God, I quit doing this, this, this and this right now. As opposed to sitting down and just thinking about it.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.

And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Good Life Project is sponsored by Life Kit from npr. So you know those moments when life throws you a curve ball? You kind of wish that someone could just hand you a manual. That's exactly what Life Kit does. I was listening to their episode about mood boosters the other day. It really struck me just how simple yet powerful it was. Just 15 minutes can transform your entire day. What draws me to Life Kit is how they tackle everything from neck pain to artificial intelligence with such clarity and care. They bring real experts who share practical, actionable strategies without making you feel overwhelmed. Each episode feels like sitting down with a trusted friend who actually knows what they're talking about. So whether you're figuring out how to talk to your teens about AI or looking for ways to boost your resilience, Life Kit delivers thoughtful conversations that give you really clear takeaways that you can use right away. No judgment, no fluff, just real guidance for real life. Listen now to the Life Kit podcast from npr. Good Life Project is sponsored by Prolon. So as someone who has researched and practiced fasting for years, I love discovering Prolon's five Day Fasting Mimicking diet. It is a gentle science backed nutrition program that actually lets you eat while your body stays in a fasting state, triggering deep cellular renewal. I've done their five day cycle a few times now over the last few years and what I love is just how effortless they make it. They send you everything you need from organic soups to snacks and beverages, all thoughtfully designed to nourish you while supporting fat loss and metabolic health. I feel amazing throughout the experience. And the soups, the bars are the foods, they taste great. And now I can't wait to try Prolon Next Gen For a limited time. You can be first in line to experience the new Next gen at Special savings, Prolon is offering good Life Project listeners 15% off sitewide plus a $40 bonus. When you subscribe to their five day nutrition program, just visit prolonlife.com goodlife that's P-R-O-L-O-N-L I F E.com goodlife or just click the link in the show notes to claim your 15% discount and your bonus gift prolonlife.com Good Life Good Life Project is sponsored by Airbnb. So remember when I told you about our producer Lindsay's big adventure? She packed up her family for five months in Oaxaca, Mexico. Her bilingual kids jumped right into local schools, making friends and becoming part of the community. The family spent their days wandering around through colorful markets and learning to make traditional mole. But here's the interesting part. While they were immersing themselves in Mexican life, their Chicago condo wasn't simply sitting empty. They decided to host it on Airbnb. And the extra income transformed their travel budget completely. What started as a creative way to use their empty space turned into the foundation of their whole adventure. It's beautiful when things work out that way. So maybe you've been dreaming of taking that extended trip, but wondering about the practical side of things. Your home could be earning money while you're creating memory somewhere else. So want to explore what's possible? Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host I do.

Want to wrap the conversation around the victim mindset and some of the empowerment exploration too. There are a couple of other things that you talk about in this context. One is the notion of self esteem, which is this loaded word in conversation these days. Talk to me about this a bit.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, I don't think it's always such a bad thing to have low self esteem. That's one thing I talk about in the book is the benefits of low self esteem.

[Jonathan Fields]

Tell me about it.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Self esteem is just how you regard yourself, and it's different than narcissism. Well, narcissism is, I guess, a way of regarding yourself, but in a way that is superior to others. High self esteem is one where you just feel worthy of. You know, I regard myself as worthy. I regard myself as competent. Worthy and competent are the two main aspects of self esteem. And usually our self esteem takes a hit when either a social situation happens where we don't feel as worthy in life or we don't reach our goals. And then our competence takes a hit. It's usually one of those two things. And our self esteem takes a hit. But as I talk about in that chapter, there are benefits of feeling bad about yourself.

[Jonathan Fields]

It's very counterintuitive.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

It's so counterintuitive. But I would say if people get the reverse, Is it always good to feel good about yourself? I think most people like actually, no. That's the same thing I'm saying just in the other direction. But mathematically they equal the same thing. But do you want to protect yourself like a fort at all times, where when you legitimately aren't reaching your goals, you're legitimately hurting someone's feelings, you do all you can to restore that feeling of feeling good about yourself. Is that what you're solving for? Or are you solving for making an impact in the world, for finding the meaning out of the situation, for maybe correcting a wrong you made? You know, a lot of people with this incessant need to be seen in a positive light can't bear the thought of feeling bad about themselves. And that means more to them than making other people feel bad. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

[Jonathan Fields]

I mean, there is such a social.

Context around all of this.

Also, I remember years ago doing research on the Ellsberg Paradox, where you basically. There are so many versions of it. You know it well. Like, for those who've never heard of it, it's effectively a scenario where you have to make a decision and you assume that there are significant stakes and you don't have enough information. And, you know, like. And I've seen studies that actually FMRI studies that show that the amygdala in the brain lights up, so the fear centers really come alive when you sort of like, you have to make decisions that tilt you towards uncertainty. But I also saw a version of that that effectively had the same experiment, and you would make a decision. But people were told in the beginning, no one will ever know what your decision is. You don't have to tell anyone.

You have to share it.

You write it down and put it away. There will be zero social context, social stakes at all. It eliminated the bias away from uncertainty, which is kind of like it ties.

Into what we're saying here.

Because it wasn't that people were afraid of making a decision when they didn't have all the information. The stakes were high. It seemed, at least from the data, that they were afraid of making a decision without good information. Stakes were high. Being wrong and then being socially judged for having made the wrong call.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

That's the big one. The social judgment is the big one. The amygdala is an interesting brain region, which is the source of so much debate in the field about what exactly it is it is for. And people have concluded. There seems to be an emerging consensus that it has to do with just emotional significance. Without it, we don't register an emotional significance of something. So psychopaths really don't activate their amygdala that much.

[Jonathan Fields]

I guess that would make sense.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah. Everything's like, oh, I killed that person. Okay. There's not much emotional significance. There probably should be. Not also like pastor serial killers, of course. But yeah. But yeah. So it's an interesting finding. And for people who suffer with neuroticism, where their brains are constantly feeding them negative thoughts and anxiety, they would prefer a certain negative outcome over an uncertain outcome. That could be good. They can't stand the uncertainty.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah. Yeah. They just want to know either way. Even if it's bad, I'd rather have that.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

And that they prefer the devil, you know?

[Jonathan Fields]

Right. Huh. Yeah. I mean, it kind of makes sense. And I think probably anyone joining us now has been that person.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah. I would hope.

[Jonathan Fields]

It's like nobody's immune.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

I hope we don't have too many psychopaths listening.

[Jonathan Fields]

No. One of the other things you tease out in the context of this, and then we'll bounce over to the empowerment side, is this notion of. Of meaning to please other people.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yes.

[Jonathan Fields]

And of course, nobody's experienced that before.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Oh, man, this is just such a tough one for kind, empathetic humans. This is an eternal struggle and one that there's no quick fix. And I don't think there should be a quick fix because those who try to do the quick fix, you'll see an overcompensation effect where like, no more Mr. Nice Guy, you know? And then it's like, I'm sick of people pleasing and they become an asshole. And that's not the way. That's not the answer. But you are people pleasing. Whenever you're totally putting your own needs aside for someone else in a way that causes you harm. You know, you're allowed to stand up for yourself. You're allowed to have healthy assertiveness. I call it healthy selfishness. Actually, in the book. I think a lot of people with people pleasing tendencies could learn some of the tools of healthy selfishness. Not feel like they're always being selfish when they're just taking care of themselves.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah. And there is a. Again, social context. Right.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Fields]

There's so much cultural stuff, so much around that orientation of like, you're just doing that for you.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah. There are a lot of shoulds at.

[Jonathan Fields]

A time like this also.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

It's like, seriously, there are a lot of shoulds. Yeah. Like, you probably get tons of requests. And do you ever feel bad, like, saying no to a request, even though you just know you don't have the time for it? I mean, you're allowed to just be in charge of your own schedule.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. And this has been a journey for me and I would imagine for you as well. You know, I've been doing this. I've been public facing in some way, shape or form for nearly the two decades or so now. And amazing. And yeah, you do have a lot of folks who are like, they resonate with something that you might share, a.

Way that you see the world or.

A piece of insight or information. And there's a sense that maybe that person can help me. And it's a really interesting phenomenon to have people who you don't know reach out to you and say, like, I'm in need. And I feel like something you shared really made a difference for me. It landed for me. Is there any way that I could xyz, we could work together? We had a couple.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

What I get a lot is, hey, can we put 10 minutes on a zoom call so I can pick your brain?

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

And that's a trigger for me.

[Jonathan Fields]

And it's a beautiful. Because you would love to be able to say yes to all of that, you know, and it's a, like, it is a real privilege and a blessing to be in a position for people to have.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

And it's also a trigger.

[Jonathan Fields]

Right. So how do you handle that now? Like, do you. Are you. When you say it's a trigger, like, do you still have an emotional reaction?

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

I have, yeah. I feel a great conflict, great inner conflict, which maybe is okay if that. If the feeling never goes away, you know, because then maybe you reach a state of indifference. And I'm not convinced I ever want to reach a state of indifference to human, my fellow humans. But there is like this feeling of like, you know, my mom, not to go to a real psychoanalytic level, but, you know, like her, oh, just call me honey whenever you want to. All I want is 10 minutes of your time. It's never only 10 minutes of my time, you know, it's like, energetically I have to experience that. And then. And then the conversation usually goes on. And then I. Once I'm in it, I feel bad. I say, like, hey, I really have to go now. I really have to go now. I keep saying it over and over again, I have to go now. And so that was a little bit of trauma for me, you know, is kind of feeling trapped, right. In a situation where I can't go, I can't leave a conversation. And so it's hard with complete strangers. I don't have any trust. I mean, where's the trust there? I don't know who you are at all. So, I mean, I try to help as much as I can through email. I'm like, hey, ask me your question through email. Do you have to talk to me?

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah. And I think it's also, I found it really helpful maybe anyone joining us to be fairly public about your boundaries. I remember literally I write a substack and I wrote a piece and it generated a lot of comments. And in a subsequent piece, somebody wrote in the comments, hey, if you really care so much, why didn't you answer my comment in that last piece? And it was an arrow through my heart. I was like, oh, am I a terrible person? Wow. I didn't answer that person. But then also I'm very clear at this point that, you know, I have a general policy. So I don't make sort of like I have. My general policy is if I'm offering something on a platform and that platform also happens to have functionality for direct messaging. To me, just because that functionality exists doesn't mean that I need to make that another door into my psyche. And I make that just an across the board policy. And I actually responded in the comment. He says, listen, I completely understand your feelings. Thank you so much for sharing it. I really honor that and appreciate it. Just, I want you to understand more clearly just how I approach this because honoring my own personal commitments and responsibilities and also my commitment to making and creation and offering is so strong and it takes all of my time. I've just created a very clear universal boundary that I don't respond to DMs and to messages and it's not even you.

I don't even see it.

So I hope you understand that and maybe even invite you to explore. Like, do you have a similar Shirley policy or boundary?

This person was actually appreciative.

They're like, I just.

Thank you.

I understand and I agree. And now I understand this wasn't personal.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Also, that's what you're doing is depersonalizing that for people. That's beautiful. I think that was it Oliver Berkman who said that that's the best way to do it is create a general rule and make it very clear to people. That's your general rule. So everyone knows what's up. That's. That's the best you can do. But some people really do just take the path of just saying as their general rule. They're like, look, I'm an asshole. And there's actually a certain freedom in that just saying, you know what? I'm not what you all want me to Be in this world and take it or leave it. And there's a certain attraction to that way of being as well that I, I don't want to rule that out. You're being really nice and polite. But I'm like, maybe I'll try experiment a year, the year of being an asshole and write a about it. That experience, I feel like that's something my friend, you know, A.J. jacobs. Yeah, yeah. I feel like that's something he would do. I could tell the year of being an asshole, but I, I think it could be kind of fun. There's a certain kind of freedom there.

[Jonathan Fields]

I mean, it is interesting just getting crystal clear and seeing how people respond and. But it's also a really interesting task. Right, because what you're effectively saying to people is, is the value that I'm able to offer you because I'm really focusing on doing the work and then sharing like what I do. Is that enough alone to give you something that's worthy even if you know that there's no other access beyond that? So it's an interesting experiment to run. I think a lot of people would probably want to run something like that. They might not call it my year of being an asshole, but effectively it's like the same thing.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

But that'd make a good TED talk, wouldn't it?

[Jonathan Fields]

It probably would actually.

And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Good Life project is sponsored by Nutrafol. So, you know, there's something powerful about seeing a product make a real difference in someone's life. When my wife Stephanie started using Nutrafol's Women's Balance formula, I just noticed how it transformed not just her hair, but her whole sense of confidence. And after watching her journey over the past five years, I become a true believer in what this company does. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand trusted by over one and a half million people. You can feel great about what you're putting into your body. Since Nutrafol hair growth supplements are backed by peer review studies and NSF content certified the gold standard in third party certification for supplements. See thicker, stronger, faster growing hair with less shedding in just three to six months with Nutrafol for a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you go to nutrafol.com and enter the promo code. Goodlife. Find out why Nutrafol is the best selling hair growth supplement [e-mail] that's spelled n U T R A F O L Promo Code Good Life that's Nutrafol.com promo code Good Life Good Life project is sponsored by Beam Dream Powder so here's something about podcast life nobody tells you. When you spend your days deep in conversations that really matter and you're having fun and going deep, your brain doesn't just switch off at bedtime. And then you add in, oh, running a couple of businesses and so many other things that you have to do, it often all just keeps spinning, especially when you're trying to rest. That is why I love Beam Dream Patter. It's this natural sleep blend that works with your body's own rhythms to help you drift off and wake up feeling refreshed. No morning fog, just real restorative sleep. The kind that lets you show up fully for what matters most. And with over 17.5 million nights of better sleep and 92% of users reporting improved rest, it really works. It's become a regular part of my deep sleep routine. And by the way, it also tastes delicious. Plus for a limited time, Beam is giving our listeners their best offer yet. Up to 40% off. Try their best selling Dream Powder and get up to 40% off. For a limited time, go to shopbeam.com good life and use the code good life at checkout. That's shop b e a m.com goodlife and use the code good life for up to 40% off Good Life Project is sponsored by Earth Breeze. So you know, it's been on my mind lately. All those unnecessary chemicals in everyday products. When I started looking into what was actually in my laundry detergent, I was pretty surprised. Many popular detergents contain harsh chemicals that stick to clothes and can irritate your skin. And the wild part? Some of these chemicals, like optical brighteners, they aren't even cleaning your clothes. They're just creating an illusion of brighter whites.

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[Jonathan Fields]

Let's kind of turn the page a little bit to the empowerment side. We talked about the victim mindset, and some of the contributors that go into this, the things that raise our head, and you said early on, you're like, this is really about empowerment. So there's data within the context of this experience, within that experience of a victim mindset that we can turn around and use as that activation energy. So some of the things that you talk about, you describe this finding the light within. It's kind of like the opening move here.

So take me into this.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Well, there are parts of us that aren't broken, and I think that if we focus so much on our victimhood, we can not get in touch with those parts of ourselves. In a lot of ways, where you put your attention is where you put your life. And a lot of people really identify so strongly, like, oh, my trauma. My trauma when I was two. And that just. That's their overarching thing for how they live and experiences. Whenever they interpret everything through that lens, if they're thinking, oh, do I want to go on this trip to, no, I can't fly my trauma when I was 2 and say, okay, well, do you have any parts of you, any character strengths that maybe that are craving exploration? Are there any parts of you that values creativity, values meaning? Are you letting those parts of you suffer by only focusing on this small part of you? It's not all of you. That's what I mean by that. Finding the light within. There's some cool examples. The Atman brothers and their friend Gonzalez go around to schools where a lot of these kids, underserved communities, are really written off and just the kids themselves probably feel in a lot of ways broken. And he teaches them yoga. They teach them yoga and mindfulness techniques, and they start to feel good about themselves. They start to realize that they have resiliency, they have coping skills, they have a future. In some ways, my book is kind of a response to a cultural kind of sense of helplessness I see in a lot of even underserved communities, minorities. And I try to make clear I believe in the higher potential of all people, regardless of your skin color or where you came from. And I think the more we can kind of give people hope, the better.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah, I mean, the notion of helplessness is really interesting also. I think we're having this conversation at a moment in culture, in the world.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Where it's a moment. We're going through a moment, man.

[Jonathan Fields]

We are.

And I think a lot of people are looking out and they're like, the feeling of helplessness has probably never been higher for so many people. They're looking at it and they're like, this is so big, this is so heavy, this is so complex.

What can I do?

Literally, there's nothing that I can do to make a difference. And there's this feeling of helplessness.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

And you don't always have to do something either.

[Jonathan Fields]

So tell them. Yeah, tease that out.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Your value in this world is not always tied up one to one with what you're doing in the world to help others. I mean, I think we need to get rid of that mindset I saw once. I forget what it was, but someone said the real key to life is find ways to have joy and find ways to bring joy to others. And I'm like down with. I actually like that. I mean, you can watch one of these bro podcasters and feel like your life is crap because you haven't gotten up at five in the morning and that you didn't do 50,000 burpees by nine. Yeah, sure, you can feel like crap about yourself, but I'm not convinced they haven't figured it out. Even as though they think they have it figured out. I'm not convinced that's the key to life. I think the key to life is experiencing life to be grateful for the consciousness that we've been given, to be grateful for others who are on this planet with us and we're all in this together. And that feeling of helplessness sometimes comes from a false sense that you can only feel hopeful to the extent to which you're tackling your goals. But not everything in life is goal oriented and needing to be goal oriented in order. That's very masculine. You know, it really is.

[Jonathan Fields]

So tell me the other.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

The alternative to a goal driven life.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah. Or to just like the alternative approach to helplessness. Like if it's not about what do I do to remove this feeling of helplessness from me? Like, how do I reframe that?

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

What experiences do I want to create for myself today and for those around me. What kind of feeling do I want to. How do I want to show up in? What kind of energy? If I'm going down the street to the coffee shop, what frame of mind do I want to be in when I enter this coffee shop? Do I want to be on the lookout or have an openness for connection, for. For bringing some sort of joy to someone? I mean, I recently took up magic mentalism.

[Jonathan Fields]

I saw that on your website.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Nice. Nice. It's a thing. It's a real thing. It's like I'm so into it and the reason why I'm into it and I almost feel like it's like the thing I'm most excited about these days is because no matter how crappy my day is or whatever is going on, wherever I go, I have something in my pocket that can bring someone joy, you know, and whatever it is, whatever you have in your pocket to bring others joy or bring yourself joy amidst the crap of life, I mean, I think that's what it's all about. So I really do kind of want to push back against this bro, goal oriented, crushing it culture that makes people feel as though their value is only tied up to how many things they've checked off their to do list. And if that makes me a little controversial for saying that, so be it. I'll work on my people pleasing skills. But I really, that's where I feel aligned these days.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah, I mean, that lands well with me also. Like, I love, like I have big things on my list. You know, there are big aspirations that I want. And at the same time, you know, I love sitting on my front porch when I can catch the sunrise and just sort of like see that first glimmer of light and hear like the birds starting to come alive in the background.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

And then you realize, this is life.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah, this is life.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Life doesn't exist in the trying to reach my goals.

[Jonathan Fields]

Right. It's like all the doing basically lands me back in that seat, being able to do the exact same thing.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

It's like, huh, where is life really? Really, you know?

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah, it's not out there. It's like not the thing that happens after the big thing. You know, it's every moment along the way. As cliche as that is, I guess there's a reason that people keep repeating it through generations. You brought up something also, and this is in the book as well. It's this notion of not just having one self. I think the phrasing was a symphony of selves.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. Glad you brought that up. What is. Walt Whitman has a phrase like, if I contain multitudes, do I contain multitudes? Yeah, I contain multitudes. Like, what are you going to do about is what it is. And this idea or notion that we have a real self. I really want to challenge that, that some spiritual self help space are like, get in touch with your real self. I mean, I think it's all real, but I think we have certain aspects of ourself that feel more centered, grounded, alive. There's a fertile soil there for growth. And I think we have other sides of ourselves that feel like it's entering like a black pit, maybe of despair, but also addictions, I think is like entering a black. It's a black pit of greed. In a way, you constitute need. That thing. Need that thing. That thing. It's a greedy feeling. But like I said, we talked about the story. Playing with the different energies of your different selves and finding the selves that like, oh, I like being there and working. Committing to living a life where you're there as often as possible, I think is a life well lived.

[Jonathan Fields]

Where do you land then? In the condo. I feel like the hot thing in therapy for probably the last 5, 10 years or so has been been ifs, internal family systems, parts work.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

A lot of people really like it.

[Jonathan Fields]

A number of people who are sort of like in that space, a lot.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Of people really like it.

[Jonathan Fields]

What do you think's going on there that it seems.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

And interestingly enough, I'm currently seeing a therapist who specializes in ifs. Yeah, yeah.

[Jonathan Fields]

So what's your take? I mean, does that tie into what.

We'Re talking about here?

Is that something entirely different?

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

I think it's relevant. I do. I do think it's relevant. And Dick Schwartz, the originator of ifs, has been in my podcast and did a. A session with me about my fear of women. This particular thing happened to me in summer camp where this woman in age 12, this girl, rejected me and made me really shy talking to women. Anyway, he did this, like he got in touch with that part. I think there's a lot of wisdom there. I think it's also important to recognize that this IFS isn't that scientifically validated. It's not that well accepted in amongst the serious scientists just because it hasn't been tested rigorously and scientifically. But there's got to be something there. When you look at the way that it resonates with people who go through It. Even me, when Dick Schwartz did it with me on my show, I felt like I wanted to cry. I felt like I released. I wanted to release that self once and for. For all. What I also like about it is it is so in line with a lot of other traditions. So this notion of facing your beautiful monsters, which is a very Buddhist kind of concept, Rinpoche wrote a book about that. Getting into and doing the handshake practice with your beautiful. I see it associated with that. If you can really make deep contact and really try to understand and wrap your head around what a particular self wants, what is it really asking for? What is it really craving? And not being scared of it, and not being scared of that self and even treating it with tenderness. There is a real softening of it and a wholeness feeling that you can have. So, yeah, I like it.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, right? Because the fundamental. If I understand it properly, the fundamental, fundamental idea with parts work is that we are made up of a whole bunch of different parts, and those parts have different jobs. And often they feel like those jobs have been set in motion when we were little kids, when something happened to us, like, oh, I need to go protect you. And that forms a pattern that just kind of stays with you. For a while.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

It was like the fireman, right?

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah, exactly. And so we have all these little parts running around us with roles that had been assigned oftentimes, like decades before, and they're still doing them, even though our life is very different, our circumstances are different, we are different, yet they're still in there fighting the fight. But my curiosity, which kind of wraps it around to this conversation too, is like, what is the part that is aware of all of those other parts?

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

I have this conversation with Corey all the time. All the time. I want to think this through in a different way. Dick is very big in saying we all have multiple personalities, and that's a big part of all this. But I actually think that that's not true for everyone. There are people who've done the work in such a way that I think they're really well integrated. And I don't think they have all these different parts that are constantly pulling them in different directions. I actually see a great consistency of who they are, and it's very clear what that sort of. Whatever that unitary self is, that is called another part. Dick would say that's just another part, the integrator. Okay, fine. Hey, I know that's what he would say, and that's fine. Okay. If that's what we want to say, it's just another part that's the integrator. But I see some people who are more in touch with that meta, the meta part, than they are with the lower order parts. And I want to be like those people. So I want to study those people. And I think what's really interesting about them is that they hear the other parts. They hear. They're like, I see you, I hear you. But I have no desire to engage further with it. And just talking to people who I've sought out, people who I think are great, they have a real clear, unified self, a real sense of mission purpose. They're like, I'm not going to mess this up. I think Kobe Bryant was like that Maybe later in his life, he's like, I'm just going to do. I'm going to put away all the crap, maybe the bad sides of me, and just go all in on the part that I really want to engage in the most frequently. And we think of lots of other examples. That name just came up to me because I knew him personally in middle school and high school.

[Jonathan Fields]

I mean, it's interesting, right, because.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

This.

[Jonathan Fields]

Word equanimity has really been in and out of my life a lot lately.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, I love this word. I love it.

[Jonathan Fields]

And I think a lot of times, if you're familiar with the word, we tend to define it as finding a way to find center and to be at peace no matter what's happening around you, without the need to grasp and control it. But I think part of what's going on here also is. And again, that's probably just my overlay here. I can't really define it in a detailed way. But part, I think the conversation is here, that person who's really able to touch equanimity on a consistent basis. Maybe it's not just about the external circumstance. It's about like, okay, so they're.

There are these other pieces of me. There are these parts of me and.

They feel like they have jobs to do also. And I see you and cool, good on you. I see you and I'm still gonna just sit here and breathe and be okay. It's the internal and the external that equanimity is about, not just being okay with the circumstances of the world around you. How's that land?

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Well, it's gotta be the internal and the external. No, I think that that's gotta be right. Yeah.

[Jonathan Fields]

Earlier in our conversation, and this is something that you come to in the empowerment conversation too, is this notion of, I don't know if it's being of service, finding things that you're actually put you in a state of gratitude and generosity. When you're experiencing a victim mindset, how does this help?

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

I like to refer to gratefulness rather than gratitude. Gratitude is something that you can. That you have to wait for something to happen to you and then be like, oh, I'm so great. I have so much gratitude for this. But gratefulness is an orientation towards life. No matter what happens to you, you can kind of see, well, how does this. What's the upside here? What can I learn from this situation? What can I still be grateful for even amongst amoks? I just made up a word amidst this, amongst that.

[Jonathan Fields]

Amongst.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

I always invent words that are all this chaos. My friend Christy Nelson wrote a wonderful book called Wake Up Grateful, which is about her journey with stage four cancer and how she was committed to still waking up grateful every day, regardless of the uncertainty and the fear she had about her life and what she was still going to be grateful for. So I think that harnessing that practice takes you away from a victim mindset. You're not. If you get yourself caught up in this mindset that you know you're going down a path that doesn't lead to hope, doesn't lead to connection with others, you know, take a pause and enter a different way, a different gratefulness mindset. And you can enter gratefulness mindset like that. It could be as simple as you catch yourself going down the mental pathway, oh, I have to do this today. I have to do that today. I have to do that today. God, let's curse my assistant for adding that to my schedule. And then you go, you know what? No, no, no, let me think. I get to do that. I get to do that. I get to do that. Oh, my gosh, I get to help at 7pm tonight. I get to have that on my counter and help that person. And in an instant, you've shifted into a different mindset. So I think it's possible. And I mean, I wouldn't have thought so if I didn't write this book.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah, yeah. And I love how simple things like that are because a lot of times you're like, okay, so what's the technique, the process, the strategy? Give me the whole method. Self talk, right? And it's like literally change a word.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jonathan Fields]

It's like, oh, wait. But then you hear something like that, you're like, it can't be that easy.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Try it, you'll see. It is that easy, right?

[Jonathan Fields]

Because people are just like, if it's.

That simple, it couldn't possibly make a difference.

And I love the fact that you're.

Saying here saying naturally does it totally does.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Attention.

[Jonathan Fields]

Nah. Somebody's finding themselves now in this victim mindset. Is there sort of like an easy first step in like you're sitting here, you're listening, you're like, oh, wait, this is me. Yeah, like everything I'm hearing right now, this is absolutely landing in a way that I kind of wish it wasn't good.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

I would say awesome, right?

[Jonathan Fields]

And then what would you say?

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

And then, yeah, I mean, it's great that you have that self awareness and now try to be more mindful of when catch yourself, when you start to enter this mindset. You know, we've defined it pretty well in this episode. And think to yourself, okay, I am way personalizing this situation. Or even ask yourself, am I overly personalizing this thing that happened to me? Is this really, am I overgeneralizing this? I know that this, I got turned down by something or a job opportunity or a person, but am I overgeneralizing to think that everyone's going to turn me down? Yeah, I probably am. Just challenge yourself and you'll realize that that gives you a greater sense of agency.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah, challenge yourself to be better in a gentle way.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

What'd you say?

[Jonathan Fields]

In a gentle way? In a non aggressive Goggins. Goggles. But yeah. And even that what we were just talking about, literally. Can you change a word in a sentence that takes you from a place of obligation or lament to a get? Is there a grateful something where you can just look around or look inside and be like, yeah, I appreciate that even though I'm not in love with what just happened in this moment, there's something and maybe you can even tell a different story about it in the moment, like, huh?

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

And also I find in a cheeky way, I like to lower my expectations about life. I have a section of my chapter of chapter one, the intern says, warning, you might have a case of life. Look, if you think that you're supposed to be happy all the time or that if you're feeling anxiety, that's an indication you have to immediately go to a therapist and get medicine. As opposed to like, okay, I'm feeling a human emotion now. Okay, I'm feeling another human emotion now. In 10 minutes I'm going to feel a completely different human emotion. Or, or traffic sucks, or this. It'll get better. There's a very Buddhist thing there, obviously, about impermanence. And everything changes. But also there's a point here about not identifying so much with these things now and forever.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah, I love that. Feels like a good place for us.

To come full circle as well.

So I've asked you this question in the past, but I'll ask it again. It's years later and this container A Good Life Project If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes out?

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

I wonder how I answered it before, but now I would probably say I want to repeat what I said earlier. I think living a good life is finding ways to experience joy and to share that joy with others.

[Jonathan Fields]

Thank you.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, I think it maybe has changed a little bit.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah. I'm going to look back and check it myself.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Fields]

Awesome.

Thanks, Matt.

[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

Thank you.

[Jonathan Fields]

We're all set. Woohoo.

Hey, if you love this episode, safe bet you'll also love the conversation we had with Brene Brown about embracing vulnerability to fuel creative growth. You can find a link to that episode in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me. Jonathan Fields, editing, helped by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Christopher Carter crafted our theme music.

And of course, if you have, you.

Haven'T already done so please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still listening here. Do me a personal favor.

A seventh second favor.

Share it with just one person. I mean, if you want to share it with more, that's awesome too. But just one person? Even then, invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered, to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter. Because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. Ready to order?

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[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

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[Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman]

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