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- [00:00]
Jonathan Fields
So here's something that caught me off guard. Your brain is consistently scanning your relationships. Not the big dramatic moments, but the tiny ones. A return text, A nod in passing. A moment where someone just kind of sees you. When those small signals say you belong, you're safe. Something in us shifts your confidence, your sense of meaning, even how much you feel in control of your own life. But when those signals go quiet, your brain sounds the alarm, whether you realize it or not. My guest today is Amir Levine, a psychiatrist, neuroscientist and professor at Columbia University who trained under Nobel laureate Eric Handel. He's a co author of the international bestseller Attached and his newest book is called Secure and In our conversation we explore why rejection stings so hard at the neurological level. We talk about the hidden superpowers inside each attachment style. And we talk about a five part framework for building the kind of deeply connected, secure relationships that your brain has been searching for. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project.
- [01:15]
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- [02:09]
Jonathan Fields
This message is brought to you by Apple Card Apple Card members can earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases wherever they shop. This means you could be earning daily cash on just about anything, like a slice of pizza from your local pizza place or a latte from the corner coffee shop. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app to see your credit limit offer in minutes, subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and more@applecard.com One of my big curiosities just out of the gate is why does being ignored or rejected universally hurt us so Much, so much.
- [02:50]
Amir Levine
I'm so glad you asked it right out of the gate because it's kind of, it's, it's kind of like the basis of the. All this whole new book is based on. It's kind of like the biggest thing that a lot of us are even not aware of, how much it hurts us. And even our society actually accepts exclusion. And I just want like, it just, it's something. And I'll give you a little bit of background of how we actually found that it hurts the brain so much and how much it hurts the brain. And then I'll tell you why I think that is and where I realized that it happened in a very specific trip that I took, but it took me time to get there. So the whole science of exclusion comes from a series of studies that are called the salvable experiments. And based on that I've called, I've come to call it the cyvable effect. And in the soluble experiment, it all came from like one researcher, Kip Williams, who actually was walking the park with his dog one day and then all of a sudden the Frisbee came sailing in his direction. And he picked it up and he sort of threw it back at the people like who were playing. And they started to include him in the game. And then just as all of a sudden, just as they just started to include him, all of a sudden they just went back to playing the two of them. And he remembered, I remember talking to him and he said he remembered feeling surprisingly bad of being left out. Even though we expected it, no one thought he was going to continue playing with them. They were strangers. But that's kind of like stuck in his mind. And he went on to create this amazing set of experiments called the cyberball experiments, where you watch the video game, it sounded like a two dimensional video game. There's nothing immersive or even persuasive about it. And you're like a figure and you lay catch with two other figures and all of a sudden they stop throwing the ball in your direction. And what they found was two different, two separate sets of findings. One, how it affects the brain and how, the second, how it affects our psychology. Okay, so our brain, like areas of like painful distress just like go online and like preoccupation and sort of assessment, what's wrong? What have I done wrong? Why is this happening? And like a lot of distress. So it really triggers distress. And the psychological part of it is that it causes, it sort of elicit what I've come to call emc, sort of it really decreases people's self esteem. It makes people feel that life is less meaningful and it makes them feel that they're in less of control of their lives. And that's crazy to me. When I read that, I was like, that's just insane. Things that I always thought how much I feel I'm controlling my life, my self esteem or that life is meaningful. I never thought that it related to how other people relate to me. Especially not like in such small relational moments. So these are the findings of the cyber. I call it the cyberball effect because to me it's like all these things that we think that are related to us and how we feel about ourselves, not necessarily in relations to others, are really connected to how others relate to us.
- [06:04]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, I mean, so it's wild that what you're describing. Tell me if I'm getting this right. So basically people sort of like play a virtual game where you're playing catch and then all of a sudden you're excluded from the catch, like nobody's throwing you the ball anymore, basically. Right. And even that which seems like it'd be kind of innocuous, like this is, we all kind of know it's, you know, it's a game. Like you're saying you were able to register very clear changes in brain physiology showing like the distress centers lighting up and on the psychological side of it, feelings of exclusion and lack of self esteem and sort of like being almost like cast out. It's not like a conscious process. It seems like it's something that's more wired into us.
- [06:47]
Amir Levine
It's primal, right? Completely. That's like I thought about like a knee jerk reaction, like we can't stop it, we can't control it. Very similar here. It's something that's ingrained in us as
- [06:57]
Jonathan Fields
you're describing that it's reminding me of years back I was actually working on something and I started going deep into the research, the work of John Cacioppo on loneliness and lack of belonging. He's describing a lot of the same things that you're describing. I don't recall him actually doing FMRI studies or neurological studies where they could see what was happening. But behaviorally they saw like all these same things and it was profound. But for some people it made them pro social, like how can I change? How can I be nicer? How can I be kinder, how can I be so I can be included again for other people, made them antisocial. They got filled with anger and rage and actually learned how can I Get back at this person. How can I hurt them for excluding me? Have you looked at that, like the response also?
- [07:44]
Amir Levine
Yeah, I love that you're saying that people react differently. And I think that also relates to the attachment styles that we have different programming inside us that kind of like decides for us how we're going to react. Like, we're not fully at the helm here and we don't really completely. And we know that a lot of the way that we react to the world through the relational world really depends on our attachment style. And so like, if you're people who have a more secure attachment style, they don't see it as much as a threat and sometimes maybe even though they'll have this soluble effect and. But they may just like say, oh, they, they are able to really. They, the. They don't register it as much of a threat. They can register it, but their brain doesn't react as powerfully to it. Whereas people who have insecure attachment styles, they respond to it much more powerfully. And I guess that's one of the reasons. Just the fact that respond so differently to our environment is one of the things that I really, that I actually use to try to help people become more secure by learning to engineer your environment in such a way that can actually can calm your brain, can sort of find a way to change, not just calm the brain because you feed a different messages that can help it change.
- [09:04]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. Let's talk a bit about attachment styles before we dive more. More in a more focused way into security. Because this is one of those phrases so many of us have heard and it's almost like it's entered pop culture in a lot of different ways. What's your attachment style? And. But I don't think many of us really understand what we're talking about when we actually say the phrase attachment style. So break this down for me. Maybe in language that just somebody who's never even heard about this could get.
- [09:35]
Amir Levine
Yeah, I mean, it's amazing to me that so many people talk about it because when I wrote my first book Attached to, almost like more than 15 years ago, it was just some lingo, scientific lingo and. But I found it so useful myself. The way I think about attachment style is that we, it all has to do with how comfortable we feel with intimacy and closeness. That's on the one side. And then on the other side, how much of a, how sensitive of a radar do we have for potential disruption in the, in the connection? So if we have, if we love, love, love, closeness and intimacy but at the same time we have a very sensitive radar to potential threat. And when I mean threat in attachment lingo is everything that can, that stands in the way of the availability of the other person. So like the cyberbull effect, like a one on one version of the cyberbull effect is called still facing. When someone all of a sudden doesn't respond to you, they sort of have a blank face, they ignore you. So like that's a, like a special case of cyberbullaw, which is I call still facing. It's based on the still facing experiment. And so when people with anxious attachment style have love, love, closeness, but are very sensitive, like a little f. Like if you come and you're sad, they feel like, oh my God, what's wrong? Like they're, they're sick of me. They don't, they, they don't want to be with me. There's a lot of fear that relationships are fragile and that can like easily be destroyed and that you're not going to be loved as much as you love others. So it's sort of like this world belief about, around that that's anxious attachment. Now you avoid it. That. Yeah.
- [11:15]
Jonathan Fields
So just, just I want to make sure I'm really clear. So anxious attachment would be somebody who really craves and values deep connection. But when there's even the slightest hint of, of somebody feeling like they're tuned out, they're not connected, they're sort of like focused away from them. Whether that's real or imagined, that creates a spin cycle on them.
- [11:41]
Amir Levine
Yeah. And the thing is, what I found a lot in the literature, and I think even in my humble opinion, even the literature, the research literature is a little bit biased because they really do point out that they have this amazer, like the canary in the coal mine. They have these amazing senses for detecting danger. And sometimes they do jump into conclusions, but oftentimes they are very accurate. They are accurate, but what I found was that it goes beyond just detecting danger or potentially in relationships is a lot of what. When I looked at some of the imaging studies, I see that they really find that not only they can detect danger, they're just very good in detecting nuance in people, in environment and in general. So that can be an amazing gift. If giving the right circumstances and the right environment, then that's what I try to do in this new book is really come up with a set of tools that can help people create a secure environment for themselves. But in some ways I think about the anxious attached, the people who are anxiously Attached. I sort of. There's a whole theory about orchids and dandelions, and I think about them more like orchids. And there is findings that show that a segment of the population are more like orchids. They're very finicky, they need very specific environment to flourish, but they really flourish beautifully. And dandelions, they can grow anywhere and it's fine. And it wouldn't matter if you give them a better environment. They'll grow here, they'll grow there, but they're not but the orchids of this world. And that's what they've shown in multiple studies. When you give them the right environment, they outperform the dandelions. So it's just like really helping people create the right environment for themselves.
- [13:34]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, it's so nuanced. It's fascinating. So that's anxious. Talk to me about the other sort of common ones that we've heard of.
- [13:42]
Amir Levine
So now we'll move to the other one. The anxious are like, I wouldn't tell the troublemakers, but, you know, that doesn't. The relationships don't often come easy to them. And the avoidance also. Relations don't come easy to them and for a different reason. It's kind of like the other side of the coin, the avoidance. They want to be in a relationship. We're all. We're very social species, so we all need relationships. But when they get into a relationship and doesn't have to be only romantic relationships. And I'm talking, even the anxious, I'm talking about different types of relationships, they don't feel too comfortable with too much closeness. So they start to use what we call in attachment lingo, deactivating strategies to create distance in their relationship. So they'll walk a few steps ahead of you. Let's say you're going on a trip and you're like, oh, I'm going to go on this amazing vacation in Paris. We're going to walk hand in hand, done the same. And then all of a sudden you find that your partner is walking a few steps ahead of you the whole time. And it's like, what the hell is going on? Like, and then you can get like. So again, how you will respond to that really depends much, a lot on your attachment style. Like, someone anxious will say, oh, my God, again, this is so horrible. They get upset or get like despondent about themselves. I'm not loved. Or who do they think they are? And then they must start a huge fight. But someone who's secure may not feel it as much. But the avoidant or will have a different way of responding to it. And we can talk about that in a moment. But the avoidant, they have these deactivating strategies that they use all the time to minimize closeness and oftentimes they don't know it themselves that that's what they need and so that sends them on that gets them into so much relationship problems. And I try to sort of really show them in this like in this new book. Like I have these three. And this really it's not just like it's a new kind of therapy that I started to help people become more secure. Secure priming therapy. I teach them these three common pitfalls that they fall into without even knowing it. That gets them into trouble in relationships because oftentimes they don't even understand what they did wrong because they engage with someone and then all of a sudden, okay, it's been a, it's been nice to spend the weekend together and now I'm back to work and you don't even think about. They don't. They naturally create distance because they need it. So that's the avoidant attachment style. And you can see how. And you can see how like anxious and avoidant can. But one like wants a lot of intensity and closeness and very sensitive to potential threat and the other instills a lot of threat by deactivating strategies and constantly get the other person like his attachment neurocircuitry. That whole cybol effect gets constantly triggered.
- [16:33]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. So we've got anxious and avoidant and you've referenced secure a number of times now.
- [16:39]
Amir Levine
Yeah.
- [16:40]
Jonathan Fields
Are there any. Is it basically those three? Those are the three.
- [16:43]
Amir Levine
There's also a small segment of the population that are fearful. Avoidance, it's kind of like a mix of the anxious and the avoidant. So they do want. So avoidance where like I don't really need closeness, I need, I'm self sufficient. They don't like the idea to think that they're going to depend on anyone. There's like for each his own. The fearful avoidant. No, they want closeness similar to the anxious. But when people get close to them they start to feel really uncomfortable. So there's this constant push pull scenario where like with one hand they say come closer and with the other like stay away, stay away. And they really struggle between vacillating between the two and that creates a lot of relationship instabilities you can imagine.
- [17:27]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. So I mean with the anxious you described that yes, there's, there are certain struggles built into it but there are also potentially Benefits, you know, like, there's a superpower side of this too. Do you see the same thing with avoidant styles?
- [17:38]
Amir Levine
Oh, yeah, for sure. So. And I know, I think. And that's the other thing, you know, in social media, they, they're sort of really. And some of it, I have to say in my new approach and in my new. I, I have to say I kind of like make amends to the avoidance of this world because in the original book in attached, I. We just took the research finding and we described them and I think even the research is a little biased because, I mean, it shows that if their partner is sick, they're. They're not going to take care of him that well, that they have a wandering eye, that they like, they do all these things like that even if you do all these amazing things to them, they ignore it and kind of like the look for like, for the negative, all sorts of things. But in my practice, because after I wrote like attach, I spent like 15 years like trying to help people become more secure. People came to me, said, oh, how can I become more secure? I didn't have an immediate answer to that initially. And then I built all these like, sort of tools and really a new type of therapy of treatment to help people become more secure. And I found that oftentimes avoidance are really misunderstood, that there is this innate need for distance and that they just don't know how to handle it right. And they sort of like trip themselves and others don't know how to like approach it so much. So I think the, the, the main power, their superpower is that ability to function on their own and carry on despite difficult things happening around them, relational things happening around them. And one amazing study that shows you the benefit of both the anxious and the avoidant. It's such a brilliant study. They put a group of people in a room and they, they're all of a sudden there's a tiny, a little bit of smoke coming out of one of the computers and the anxious attachers were the first to identify it and the avoidance were the first out the door and everybody else followed. So like, I'm out of here. I'm not waiting for you guys to decide because, you know, sometimes like, are we going to go out? Should we leave? Should we stay? They're like, no, they're not stopping, not checking. They function on their own and it works like, they can really work well on their own. They can do. They, they're like, they can decide things on their own. They don't really need a Lot of reassurance from others. They, they value their autonomy. So there are advantages to that.
- [20:01]
Jonathan Fields
That's so fascinating. I wonder if you're aware of. I'm so curious about it. I wonder if you're aware of any research that looks at any correlations between we get this right, avoidant attachment styles and sensory processing issues or struggles.
- [20:23]
Amir Levine
So the, the, what the research does show is that people with avoidant attachment styles suppress like really suppress their, their attachment needs. And they actually, they had this research when you have to identify words that are related to attachment, like you just press on a, on a, is it a word? And that word is sort of a common psychological thing. And they. Avoidance oftentimes don't regularly recognize the attachment words that quickly. But if they give them a cognitive load like they tell them remember a set of numbers before you do this experiment. So now they're working hard in their brain to do something else. Also all of a sudden that suppression lifts and they perform as well as others. So they, that's how they find that there's an active suppression of their attachment needs. So yeah, I mean there is a level of I don't really need anyone and I'm going to like really push a whole level of awareness out of my. A whole level of need or subtlety out of my awareness because it's too much for me or I don't even know if to give it. Yeah, I think that's how I would say it's too much for me.
- [21:38]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, I mean that kind of makes sense. All right, so then you've referenced secure a number of times. Take me more into what this is and how we experience it.
- [21:45]
Amir Levine
So secure. I have to say oftentimes they're what I've found. Before I even of came across this whole body of information about the adult attachment styles. Finding out about secures really transformed my life and how I see people because secures in my mind throughout this work I fell in love with the secures of this world. But oftentimes they're ignored because they're always there for us. They're warm and loving. They love closeness. But if you also you need your distance, they'll give you your distance. They really are easy going in a relationship and that's one of the reasons is because they don't have a very sensitive radar. So a lot goes over their head. They're not going to notice things that are happening in a relationship. Probably the last people to know if they're being cheated on or they just don't notice things. But not only that, they're also amazingly good in regulating their affect and their partner's affecting. And that is such a huge gift in a relationship. And I remember this one example that a patient of mine gave me. They went to Whistler on a ski trip with this, her partner. And this is the first secure partner that she had. And she said they got to their cabin in Whistler and I don't know what happened in the first two minutes they were there. Like, he got very upset with her about something and he stormed off. And her heart was sinking because, like, oh, no, it was all too familiar to her. This is just like this big fight in the beginning of, of a, of a, of a vacation, a trip, and it's going to ruin the whole vacation. But then two minutes later, he's like, she, like, he sort of comes through the door and he said, I'm so sorry. I really don't want to. I really don't want this to be this way. I'm sorry. I overreacted. Here, come, let's have a hug and start all over again. And like, they did that and she said that was. It kind of like changed the whole course. There was no, like, long sort of like silences, like all these sort of like additional fights or talking about how this was wrong or that was wrong. It all dissipated. And that's what secures are so good at. It's kind of like really regulating people's affecting. And so if you have secure people in your life, I really. There's almost like having a relationship coach or even like a life coach built into your life. But oftentimes they're the ones we ignore because they always text us back. They always respond to us to, like, our mind goes to places where, oh my God, we've been sovibald, we've been still faced, and we need to fix this. And the ones that are there on the side, that are always there, we ignore them. Even though there's such a huge asset for us in, in our journey, and they can help us become more secure.
- [24:41]
Jonathan Fields
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- [26:29]
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- [27:03]
Jonathan Fields
So it's like if you if you are a secure attachment style, you may have a higher risk of kind of being taken just not taken advantage of, but taken for, you know, like for granted. For granted. You just they just assume you're always going to be around. You're just that kind of person. And I don't really have to give you as much love or pay attention to you. So you may end up, I would imagine even though you feel, you feel secure, over time a certain amount of upset may start to build.
- [27:34]
Amir Levine
I think so. But the thing is oftentimes secures also really know how to ask for what they need.
- [27:41]
Jonathan Fields
Oh, that's interesting.
- [27:42]
Amir Levine
Yeah, no, I told you. They're just like these sort of magical creatures when it comes to relationships. So they know how to ask for what they need. They know how to do it in a way that's effective. They're just like. Because there's no feeling of danger and the way that they go about doing it. Like there's this whole thing in the book I write about like even this whole idea of people pleasing. If they need to say no, they'll just say no. But they don't think, oh my God, if I say no to this person they're going to respond so badly. They don't really, it doesn't register to them like that. So it creates the opposite of a self fulfilling prophecy. I mean it creates a secure self fulfilling prophecy. It's just like things even at work they need to have difficult conversations. They can help them. They just like they, everything is less because everything. You don't feel that the danger is bubbling up behind so it makes it easier.
- [28:34]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, it's like they themselves probably don't feel that danger. They're more comfortable than expressing their needs and probably also appreciations. And it's almost like they're modeling.
- [28:45]
Amir Levine
Oh exactly.
- [28:46]
Jonathan Fields
Safety so that you can actually do the same thing back to them.
- [28:49]
Amir Levine
I love that you said that because that's exactly it. And that's what I. So what I tried sort of to do in this, in this new approach, the secure primary therapy or secure primary coaching is to teach people that. And the other part that's really important is that it's. I basically developed an antidote to that cyberball effect and I call it carp. It's got an acronym, CARP which means, which stands for consistent, available, responsive, reliable and predictable in the way that it works. And that's basically these are like the five pillars of a secure connection. And that's what secures naturally do. They're naturally carp. They're consistent, available and responsive. And the other part of it is that you have to experience them. It's going to look at two factor authentication as reliable and predictable and secures do that automatically. And I try to teach people who have insecure attachment style about carp and how to be carp and how to converse with others and tell them about those five pillars of Secure connection and teach them. Because these are things we can learn, we just don't know them. But they're not that difficult to learn. And also because it's not in the big things that people need to be our brain and the attachment system, it's like a radar system. It checks in the little things and that I've come to call the seemingly insignificant minor interactions of everyday life. Also simis. So it's in those seemees that our attachment lives. It doesn't care if, like you talk to me all night, but then if all of a sudden disappear, it will care about the little things. So if you want to, like, if you really want to invest, work in a relationship, invest in the. If you, if you understand the attachment logic, you'll invest in those semis and make them consistent, available and responsive. You don't need to go all out and spend like be attached to the hip. The attachment system doesn't need that at all. In fact, it's the opposite. It's a system of safety. Secure relationships end up sort of being in the background of our lives. It actually allows us to kind of like forget about the people for a while and engage in work and engage in sort of like parenting and all the things that you want to do. They serve as a safe base, basically.
- [31:19]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. I mean, that makes so much sense. I love the acronym simi. Also seemingly insignificant.
- [31:24]
Amir Levine
What was the seemingly insignificant minor interactions.
- [31:28]
Jonathan Fields
Right. So it's like the tiny moments, you know, that often we don't even focus on, we don't pay attention to, but they can actually really matter. I do want to drop into the, your. Your CARP model in more detail, but before we get there, there's this lingering question which is. So you shared these three different attachment styles and maybe kind of like a. A less frequent fourth one. The more the fearful. Right. It seems like there are incredible benefits to the secure attachment style, but at the same. And so you would assume, well, we should all want to try and find our way to that style. But I guess the question that's spinning in my head is, but you also shared that each of the insecure attachment styles, they also have certain superpowers, certain benefits. So do we lose those benefits by somehow being able to become more secure? And if so, is that loss outweighed by the benefits of actually the secure style?
- [32:30]
Amir Levine
I'm so glad you asked that because I can't tell you how many patients come to me and that's like. Like I have this one particular person that I can think of. Tara is like his biggest Fear that he's going to lose his edge.
- [32:42]
Jonathan Fields
But like that trader that you were talking about, I'm like, I'm making millions of dollars because of this. Why would I want to lose his edge?
- [32:48]
Amir Levine
I mean so you know that my answer. I wish, I wish like we were like that our ability to intervene is like to extract it, that we were so powerful. But in the truth of the matter with the way that it works we have a certain biology that sort of identifies all these CMEs and people, let's say they're anxious, can identify those simis much better. That doesn't go away. What you can create is what I've come to call. What you can create is what I've come to call. You can live in secure mode and you can take that particular area where it comes as a disadvantage to you and you can take that particular area that comes as a disadvantage to you and learn to shape it using those carp and CMEs to something that would actually be more aligned with your biology. You can't really change that basic biology that much. That ability to sense things in the environment that doesn't entirely go away. But what does go away is that what happens when that environment gets triggered. Initially we became hyper aware and hyper aroused. But when you, it's like a tracker like in like when you walk like in like, like and you're trying to track and there's, you think that there's danger all of a sudden you'll be much more aware of every little sound. But if you know, you know actually the environment is actually not much safer. You're going to, you're going to let your guard down and you're going to not notice any like every little thing in that particular environment. And that's what I'm trying to achieve in this new treatment or this new approach is to live, to learn to live in secure mode. And there's areas that like in places where things, it's not working for you. And that's what I really love about this whole attachment, you know, attachment. The whole body of knowledge doesn't come from the medical model which I love. It's not about health or disease. It's about is it effective or ineffective? Is it working for you or not working for you. So it's like about 25% of the population are avoidant, about 20% are anxious and about 50% are secure. So it's not that people are avoidant or anxious are like. It's not unhealthy, it's just a variation on the norm. It Just speaks for evolutionary speaking. There was an advantage to having a portion of the population be able to act decisively in a moment of crisis or be able to detect potential threat in terms of just like survival, but the survival. But evolution doesn't care about our personal happiness. It's about the survival of the species. We're just like this. We are gene carrying like entities that are supposed to carry on the genes to the next generation. And our personal happiness, it couldn't care less about it. But I care about our personal happiness. So I thought about a way to design a system that helps people live in secure mode where they find things challenging.
- [35:53]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, I mean I love the way you described that. So it's almost like if I'm getting this right, like if you're, you have this anxious style, it's not going to go away. It's to a certain extent wired into you. You're still going to be scanning the environment and picking up a lot of inputs, probably much more nuanced and subtle ones than other people. But maybe if you also really develop the skill to drop into secure mode on a much more regular basis, maybe those, all that stimulus is still coming in at you, you'll be able to process without basically saying like red alert, red alert, red alert. Just more like oh, interesting information, I'll take it in. And there's a different way that I can sort of like move with it.
- [36:34]
Amir Levine
So the answer as to how to do that came to me from a completely different field that I work in. I'm also a molecular neuroscientist. And there I found like when you do all these experiments and you really see how the brain changes on a molecular level. The structural brain, like how the brain changes on a structural level from changing the environment. So our brain, we think about our brain is something sheltered inside our skull. But it's really one of the most environmentally sensitive organs in our body. It sends all of our sensor sense, it sends all of our sensors like these tendrils that constantly survey the environment. It's very, very sensitive to the environment. So the idea is to create an enriched secure environment for yourself. So for example, if you have an anxious attachment style, you're very sensitive to those seamis that are not carp, that are not consistent, available and responsive and but remember I told you that we tend to, our brain tends to sort of really go especially for people who are anxious, really goes to the areas that, to those people who are not car and try to correct that or engage with that while all the while there's all these secure people that are there that you can interact with but you neglect because your brain goes where all the sort of drama happens. And that's also part of your world belief that this is how relationships are. So the brain kind of like ignores the other thing. And I say no, you have to go and you have to take an in look at your relationships and take an inventory. And, and I'm not just talking about your romantic partner, I'm talking about your friends, other people in your life. Are they carp? And if they're not carp, then I sort of suggest then maybe try to do a CARP intervention. I call it a CARP intervention. It's kind of like explain to them about the survival effect about all of these different things because oftentimes people go into their history, oh, I'm reacting like that because was like this or like that in childhood. But I find that it's really wired into our brain. It doesn't necessarily have to come from childhood. And so you can explain to them and give them a chance to be more carp. And the truth is many of us, and that's what also the theory shows that we have these secure kernels inside us, like some experiences that we have today, even now, these secure people around us or growing up of really, really secure moments that we've had with the different people in our lives in, in, in the book Secure, I start the book by telling about this vacation that I, this summer vacation that I went to with my sister's friend and her mother, and her mother Ruth was amazingly secure. And that still, I still remember that I, even now when I think about it, I get goosebumps because that was such an amazing vacation. But part of it because it was Ruth was so secure and that affected me to the core. So you can sort of tap into those secure kernels inside people and try to summon it to come out by telling them about what it means to be carp. And if they can learn and become more that way, then you've achieved sort of you, you, you're trying to create a sick, like a secure village to yourself, then that's great, you've recruited another person. But what I'd also say is that if they can't do it, I don't say you don't have to cut off ties with them, but maybe, I mean better to give them less priority in your life. So they don't sort of board on group number one or two. They don't get priority boarding to your plane. They board like, I don't know, group number eight.
- [40:26]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, so let's walk through the cart model in a little bit more detail. I want to really understand what the five different qualities mean with the language that you're using. So consistency, availability, responsiveness, reliability and predictability. Talk me through each one of these and what do you actually mean by them?
- [40:43]
Amir Levine
So consistent. The brain, our brain, our attachment system is like a surveillance system. It's really what people like. It's a way, the way that we feel safe in the world. People think, oh, if I have a lot of money in the bank, if I have a condo, that's how I'm going to feel safe. But that's not how our emotional brain feels safe. Because our emotional brain wasn't created when these things were around. It was created when other, other people like me were around. And that's how. And it computes. So it started the level that if I, if you and I were sitting in the same room, just by the sheer fact that you're sitting next to me, that reduces my chance of being, becoming prey by 50% because it's either going to go, either going to go after you or after me. And sort of that's, I can run away, but that's huge and the brain knows it. But the human brain goes a step further. Not only the human brain, also social birds. By the way, it's very fascinating. There's all these experiments in social birds and how there's this senses capability that our brain senses that others are around us and we feel safer that way. Think about walking in a dark alley by yourself or with someone else, immediately you feel better if you're with someone else. So that's one thing. But then the other thing, our brain can really assess the quality of the relationship. That's an upgrade that we got as human, the quality of the relationship. And if the quality is better, then we feel safer. So the consistency is a way for us to assess the quality of the relationship. There is like people show up for us in a consistent way and the brain monitors for that. So if you text someone every day and all of a sudden, if someone texts you every day and all of a sudden they stop texting you, immediately you'll notice it because that's what we're programmed to notice it or. But if they texted you once a week, you're not going to notice that they haven't texted you every day because you create this level, this baseline. So that's where the consistency is. It's about that attachment homeostasis, a baseline that's created. That's one thing and then the availability, it's an internal decision. Once you understand how important it is to be consistent and that also that we depend on one another for emotional well being, that we think about the cyberball effect and how much we respond to sort of potential disconnect from others. Then you have to make an eternal decision that you're going to be available to the people in your life and I. So we can say even to the immediate people in your life. But if you think about those simis and connection, even nodding and saying hello to the elevator to someone, that also increases that feeling of hyperconnectedness which kind of like the opposite of the cyberbull effect. So you have to make a decision to be available to the people in your life. So that's. And then consistently available responsive. And so the responsiveness is sort of the actual act of that availability. Right. Once you make that decision, if they reach out to you, then you respond to them. So that's kind of like seals the consistent available and responsive. But it's not enough that I will feel oh I'm so car, I'm so great. No, no, no, it's not enough. It's a two way street. It's a two factor authentication model. You need to make sure that the other person actually experiences you that way that they experience you as reliable someone who shows up in a reliable way and predictable that you don't all of a sudden ghost them in a jarring way. So then that seals the deal. It's kind of like you have to be car but you have to make sure that the other person actually perceives you as reliable and predictable. And then you're carp and that's sort of like the five pillars of a secure connection. And what he does, I didn't tell you with that cyberball experiment. They also did the opposite experiment where it's got, it's called the reverse cyberball. So now you're standing in the middle and you're throwing the ball to someone, they're throwing it back to you. You turn around, you're throwing to the other guy, they throw it back to you and you're always hyper. So you're hyper included. And they find that it actually has all these amazing. It's kind of like the opposite. It has this amazing effect. It makes you feel more self esteem, that life has more meaning and that you're more sensitive control. So that being hyper included really the brain loves it. As much as the brain loads that disconnect, it loves being included. So I thought, I really thought for a long time. How do I create that immersive hyper inclusive and that's where in K pop up with those carp simis you really want to try to make as many as your carp simi's to create that amazing things and think about like how amazing it is to sort of like with those little in little increments to increase your self esteem that life is more meaningful. All of these good things that can happen when you feel this sense of connection around us.
- [45:52]
Jonathan Fields
And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Good Life Project is sponsored by Wild Alaskan Co. I really love seafood but I'm also always trying to find sort of the cleanest sources because not all seafood is alike. So when I would shop for it I used to question everything from nutrition to sustainability. And I remember opening my first box from Wild Alaskan Company and just being struck by how different it felt. I mean you can see the quality immediately just in the vibrant red of the sockeye salmon. I love knowing this fish is 100% wild caught and never farmed. There are no antibiotics or GMOs. It's just clean, nutrient dense food frozen off the boat to lock in those essential Omega 3s. And lately I've actually been searing Pacific Halibut for just this really simple protein rich meal that helps me feel my best. It's so delicious and it's just a smart way to support sustainable harvesting while enjoying food that actually tastes incredible. Not all fish are the same. Get seafood you can trust. Go to wildalaskan.com goodlife for $35 off your first box of premium wild caught seafood. That's wildalaskan.com goodLife for $35 off your first order or just click the link in the show notes.
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- [48:12]
Jonathan Fields
So I mean, and it's kind of, it sounds like it would be a two way street where, yes, you would like to be on the receiving end of the consistency and the availability and responsiveness and the reliability and predictability. And you also want to show up that way for others because there's going to be like the expectation of, you know, you can't just sort of like be on the receiving end of all of this and expect everything to be awesome.
- [48:33]
Amir Levine
It all has to be reciprocal, of course.
- [48:36]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, yeah. And doing this again, not in these big grand gestures, which might be fine, might be great, like, hey, that's awesome. But it also feels like it takes the pressure off a bit when you talk about these simis, these seemingly insignificant minor interactions because you're kind of like, I can literally, it can be the barista, you know, like just acknowledging them and saying hi and remembering their name and this, you know, it can be just these random people that you pass through or that you interact with on a regular or somebody really close to you, but just like a moment that neither of you would identify as being like a big moment. But it's just, it matters, you know, it's like these little innocuous things that really aren't innocuous and they're opportunities for us if we start to look at them that way.
- [49:19]
Amir Levine
Yes. I love that you said that there are opportunities because that's exactly it. It's not just something that's nice for us to have because again, when people come to therapy, they think I need to talk about like the things that happened to me childhood or like the big event that happened in my life. And they rarely think about those CMEs as a vehicle for change in the brain. But really like each and every CME is an opportunity for you to rewire those expectations where like, if you create, if you now make all these secure people a priority for you, let's say you're anxious and now you like, instead of like, why are you not texting me? You actually instead of like doing that, it's like, oh, this person always texts me, but I never text them because I'm. So let me start conversing with them. And all of a sudden you develop a different back and forth and it's just like. And your brain rewires and that because it change. Attachment styles are also. They're called working models. It's a set of expectations that we build around certain beliefs around the world. But now you're giving, you're giving your brain different data. It's like, wow, actually people do show up for me on a regular basis. Actually. I am lovable. Actually. Relationships are not that fragile. They actually very, very stable. And all of a sudden your brain is getting all that information in little bits but over time. And that's the, that's the beauty of that enrichment idea of. And it changes the brain on a structural level.
- [50:53]
Jonathan Fields
And it takes time. You know, it's not like, hey, try this. And you're like once a month and see, it's. It sounds like what you're describing is more of, can I make this a practice? You know, can I just see if I can repeat it on a regular basis? Because it's through that repetition that you start to gain the evidence that your brain needs to be like, oh, wait, that original assumption about danger or flakiness or anger or you know, like abandonment. Like in all these little micro moments, it's being disproven. And eventually over time that's going to start to say, oh, maybe that initial assumption wasn't founded in something that.
- [51:29]
Amir Levine
Yeah, it just gets rewritten. That's the beauty of it.
- [51:32]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, it's like re encoded. Another thing that pops into my mind and this is actually something I recall you wrote about, is this notion. Okay, so let's say we're doing this work, we're looking for the CMEs, we're adapting this cart model and really trying to operationalize this in our relationships in our life. And it's kind of working like we feel like we're dropping into that secure mode on a regular basis. And then like that person who you regularly feeling pretty secure around, they're feeling secure around you. There's a fight, you know, And I would imagine there's this assumption to say
- [52:09]
Amir Levine
like, oh,
- [52:11]
Jonathan Fields
no, security. Like this was never. This was all an illusion. This is fake. But it doesn't like conflict doesn't mean that security doesn't mean that there's never any conflict.
- [52:23]
Amir Levine
No, of course not. You remember I told you the story of the, the secure person who stormed out, right? And then two minutes later. So that's why I have like in I think the last chapter of the book, I have this, I have these two rules of secure engagement. And, and, and because you really have to understand that attachment has its own logic. It's a very different logic than the logic that we're used to. But it's not a very complicated logic. It's just a different logic. And it's a pre verbal logic. Because attachment formed way before language formed. We get attached to our mothers and others. It's just like it's pre verbal. And so if we understand what the function of a secure relationship is, then that really helps us understand these two rules. So the function of a secure relationship is to keep our, is to regulate our emotions. Because we are heavily social species and one of the most powerful ways for us to regulate our emotions is through a connection with a secure person. Because think about if something bad happened to you, I would imagine unless you're avoidant. But most people, there's like rest of the 75% of the population, there's usually like. But even avoiding something really bad happened to them, you'll know. There's like we have an attachment hierarchy. You know, who is that number one person you're going to go turn to immediately and try to talk to. And then if they're not there, there's probably number two and number three. But we know immediately and oftentimes when those people are there for us. Sometimes a single word or even just a hug can make us feel better so quickly. There's no like Xanax or Klonopin in this world that can work as fast because we're like deeply in great social species and that's how we feel safe. But on the other hand, insecure attachment interactions are one of the most potent instigators of emotional upset. So attachment really is at the basis of like suffering and healing from suffering. So if we understand that a secure relationship is important to our men, to the function of it, we're both responsible to keep the other person emotion at bay. Then we get into a fight. So based on that there's the number one rule is that only one person is allowed to be upset at the time because the other person is like their function is to help them to help the other regulate their feelings. So in that example, he got upset and she was really upset that he left the room. So, so he decided, I'm not going to be upset, I'm going to be responsible, I'm going to come back and make it better. Only one Person is allowed to be upset at a time. It's very hard to maintain. I always say that knowing that it's almost impossible to maintain because when we attach to other people, we create one physiology. It's very hard to keep that barrier. Once you feel that someone else is upset, even if they didn't do anything, you get upset too, because their emotions reverberate between us. So. But sometimes what happens is they say, hey, wait a second. There's that rule. I was upset first, you're not supposed to be upset. And couple like they start laughing about it. But let's say that didn't work and now both are upset. So the second rule, I call it the mia culpa rule, like it's my fault. So think about it. If now you're both upset, you both have failed your function of sort of maintaining the other like emotional equilibrium. So now miya culpa, you both have to apologize for your role in disrupting the attachment. Sort of like homeostasis and quiet. And sometimes it's like, like people try to go, no, but I was right or there was right. Attachment doesn't care about that. It doesn't care about all the words that come up because oftentimes the words are just concealing something like much deeper need for just reassurance and to help me feel better. Like two cats on a tree hissing at each other and not knowing how to come down from the tree. Someone needs to come down from the tree and help the other. So that's why both, both need to apologize. You're both responsible and it doesn't matter like who was right and who was wrong. You can talk about it later once you both have calmed down your attachment system. And oftentimes later it doesn't even matter so much anymore.
- [56:45]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. What are you actually apologizing for in
- [56:48]
Amir Levine
that moment you're apologizing for. I'm glad that you asked that. For not kicking. Keeping up. It's almost like a secure connection is you making a commitment to be consistent, available and responsive. So like to be. To take care of the other people's. Other person's emotions. And if you fail to do it and he's upset and now you're upset and he failed to like find a way to keep you less upset, you both hurt. Sort of that promise to each other or that ability to do the back and forth and by. By you both apologizing for not keeping up that. To that role, then you're actually realizing something much deeper that it doesn't matter who's right. And who's wrong here? There's a deeper role that's much more important of helping each other feel more calm. And then things can be worked out much more easily. But if you're like, no, I'm not going to apologize, I was like, sometimes it's not about words, it's about giving a hug or just like, like the one really good example. And I told you, it's not only in romantic relationships. It's like my brother in law, he's a very difficult person and he sometimes says he's not very difficult, he's actually very nice. But he can say hurtful things to people and he does it to all of his family. They're a very large family. But one time he said something very hurtful to me and I got upset and I got up and I said, you know what, I don't want to stay here, I'm leaving. And he said, oh, I'm so sorry. And like, and he grabbed me and he like this big guy and he hugged me really hard. I was trying to get away, but he wouldn't let me get away. And then he said, I'm sorry and he hugged me. And then he just dissipated the whole episode because I saw how much he cared and he just like. And then, yeah. And he was fine. So sometimes even just like a hug. It's not about only language and it's efficiently, a lot of it is free language. It can make a huge difference.
- [58:47]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, I mean that now I like, I'm, I'm thinking about opportunities to try these things out, you know, in my, in my own life. And like you said, not just in an intimate relationship, but with friends, with colleagues, with people that you just work with on a regular basis. I think it's a really interesting sort of thing to explore, to experiment with. Especially if you're somebody that feels like you're not getting what you need, you're not getting the feelings that you need and realizing that there are environmental changes, that there are relational changes that can actually help you feel what you want to feel on a more regular basis.
- [59:26]
Amir Levine
Right. And I think one really, another really important thing is that people who have an anxious attachment style often have, I like to say it, both the need and the ability for a lot of closeness. And sometimes the one person may not be enough or, and sometimes they say sometimes. That's why I think about creating that secure village. We are highly, highly social species and we're now living like more in the more isolated sort of bubbles. And even just like that one Person may not be enough. And it's actually, and I'm glad that you said it takes practice because I really end sort of the book secure with sort of like the last part is like your secure practice. But it doesn't sound what I try to say there. I mean it's not a bad practice. What's wrong with sort of like making more secure connections? Like really in sort of. And finding. Calling them everywhere like or texting those secure people in your life and getting those text backs and creating all these amazing security means like we. Our brain loves it and we love it. There's nothing difficult about it. It's actually really a lot of fun. And I think that's why I was thinking a lot lately about this whole research about loneliness and how much do people feel lonely because of lack of connection to others and how much they feel lonely because they are connected insecurely to others, which can really instigate a lot of difficult feelings. So it's not enough to just connect to others. Like to feel all that sort of like the self esteem and all those like it's. The secure connection is really what makes us open up to the world because there's a direct link between attachment and exploratory drive. You see it in children. Like they bring them in the room full of toys, they'll play with all the toys. Every once in a while they look at their mom and then. But their mom is in the background. But the minute the mom leaves the room and they can't see her anymore, they don't want to play anymore, they become hyper focused on the mom. So we as adults, we don't play with toys anymore. But we parent, we have hobbies, we work. And so when we have that secure base and like when we check those scenes, check to see they're there and they're there, then it gives us the freedom to soar. It really makes a huge difference.
- [61:36]
Jonathan Fields
That makes so much sense to me. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle in our conversation as well. So I always wrap up the same question in this container. A Good Life project. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?
- [61:49]
Amir Levine
Oh, definitely. To live a secure life. Yeah, I would definitely say that.
- [61:55]
Jonathan Fields
Thank you.
- [61:56]
Amir Levine
Thanks a lot.
- [61:59]
Jonathan Fields
Hey, before you leave, be sure to tune in next week for an episode with me about what I call the Unbusy Manifesto and the six daily practices that'll help you reclaim your time and your sanity and maybe just your life. Be sure to follow Good Life project wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss any upcoming episodes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Chris Carter crafted our theme music and of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcasts. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still here. Do me a personal favor, a 7 second favor and share it with just one person. If you want to share it with more, hey, that's awesome. But just one person? Even then, invite them to talk with you about what you both discovered, to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter. Because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project.
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Amir Levine
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