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Good Life Project
Set Boundaries Without Guilt, Drama or Losing the People You Love | Spotlight Convo
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- [00:01]
Jonathan Fields
So have you ever said yes when every part of you actually meant to say no and then later felt that quiet resentment building, maybe towards someone else, maybe even toward yourself? Today we're talking about boundaries. Real ones. The kind that protect your time, your energy, your emotional well being, and honestly, your sense of self. Because here's the truth. You can't live a great life without great boundaries. In this special compilation episode, I'm bringing together two powerful voices. Therapist and best selling author Nedra Glover Tawab, who wrote Set Boundaries, Find Peace and psychotherapist Terri Cole, author of Boundary Boss. And between them they have decades of experience helping people untangle over giving people pleasing and high functioning codependency. We talk about the one sentence boundary that changes everything. Why explaining yourself too much can actually backfire through the hidden benefits that keep you stuck in patterns you say you want to change and how to start small, especially at work or with family when you feel like you can't just walk away. This is about learning to talk true, to be seen and to live free. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project.
- [01:19]
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- [01:52]
Jonathan Fields
Project is sponsored by circlebox so you know that moment when a meeting ends and before you've even stood up, the details just start to blur. Numbers, deadlines, who said they'd do what and what are you supposed to do next? It's kind of like post conversation, fog, circle back. It was built for exactly that space. It quietly captures your conversations and turns them into clear human grade summaries. Not just transcripts, but decisions made, context that matters, and clean action steps you can actually use. It even connects with the tools so many of us use and live in, like Slack, Notion, Zoom and CRM platforms. So the follow up work starts moving the second the call ends. For me, what stands out is the sense of presence that it gives back. I've been using it for every video call really, and it just lets me stay fully engaged in the conversation, knowing the details are being held and organized somewhere safe. And the summaries are so valuable with key ideas and insights and topics and action steps just clearly broken out. And later, if you need to find something from a call months ago, it's searchable in seconds. So if your days are filled with conversations that matter, give Circle back a try. Sign up to circle back with the code good life for 30 days free or just click the link in the show Notes this message is brought to you by Apple Card so it's a great time to apply for an Apple Card. You'll love earning unlimited daily cash on every purchase that includes 3% daily cash when you buy the latest iPhone, AirPods and Apple Watch at Apple through this special referral program. When you get a new Apple Card, you can earn bonus daily cash. To qualify, you must apply at Apple co getdailycash Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch offer may not be available elsewhere. Terms and limitations apply hey, so up first we're diving into ideas with Nedrich Lover Toab, a licensed therapist and sought after relationship expert. She's the founder and owner of the group therapy practice Kaleidoscope Counseling. Every day she helps people create healthy relationships by teaching them how to implement boundaries. Her philosophy is that a lack of boundaries and assertiveness underlie most relationship issues and her gift is helping people create healthy relationships with themselves and others. And Nedra is also the author of the New York Times bestselling book Set Boundaries Find Peace along with her recently released the Balancing Act Creating Healthy Dependency and Connection Without Losing Yourself. Here's Nedra let's talk about what we actually mean with this word boundaries, because I think probably people will hear that differently. When you use the word boundary, what are you actually talking about?
- [04:25]
Nedra Glover Tawwab
I think of boundaries as your needs, your expectations, things that will keep you safe and sane in your relationship with yourself and others. There are some pretty clear boundaries that are legal, right, laws are boundaries, and there are some that are that are just for us and very unique.
- [04:51]
Jonathan Fields
It's interesting to hear use the word expectation. It's sort of like this is the expectation I have for how I guess maybe I will treat myself how others will treat me. Because that expectation also, it sounds like, is something that can be changeable potentially over time and maybe changeable for the good, but also maybe changeable in an unhealthy way.
- [05:13]
Nedra Glover Tawwab
Yes, I think as we change, our expectations of people can change. I've been in conversation a lot lately with adults who are trying to navigate their relationships with their parents because their parents expectation has not changed of them as children. But the adults expectation has changed of what a parenting job looks like when I'm an adult. And so it can be very challenging to shift roles in relationships when we have a global idea of this is how it should be. We have to be flexible sometimes with our expectations, especially when we're in relationships with other people, maybe not with ourselves. We can control whatever expectation we want, but with other people, things change and we have to allow some things to shift. And if not, we always have options in our relationships to stay or go.
- [06:22]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You talk about a number of different types of boundaries, so I thought it would be helpful to walk through the major categories probably. First up is what I think a lot of people might think about first and foremost when they think about boundaries, which is literally physical boundaries. What are we talking about when we talk about physical boundaries?
- [06:42]
Nedra Glover Tawwab
We are talking about your body and your space. During the pandemic, physical boundaries became very important six feet back. Right. So space is really important. And some of us are like, I don't like people standing too close to me. I don't like people like touching me when they talk. Those are all physical boundaries. And those are things that should be communicated. Because if we're not communicating, we're typically cringing, we're upset, we're mad. And these are things that people may need to know to be able to engage with us.
- [07:19]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. And I wonder if, of the different categories of boundaries, physical boundaries may be the type of boundary that is most often affected by trauma.
- [07:31]
Nedra Glover Tawwab
I would say physical, sexual, and emotional. Emotional first. Because with emotional boundaries, you are told when the boundary is violated, you are told what to think, how to feel, what should be appropriate for you in terms of how you feel. And that happens a lot with physical and sexual abuse. People are told is not that bad. It could have been this. Don't tell this person. These are all of these things. So it's not just one boundary that's violated. When people are in trauma situations, there are multiple boundaries that are violated. And so repairing all of these areas is the work that a person must do is not just, okay, you're not being physically abused anymore. It's like, let's talk about the emotional part of this. Because you told someone, or even while you were crying, can you imagine being beat and someone telling you not to cry? Like the emotional violation of even the sexual and the physical is pretty significant.
- [08:48]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. I could see how they would compound and be intertwined in really devastating ways. So you, and you just referenced emotional and sexual. So. So we've talked about physical, sexual, emotional, intellectual boundaries is something that you referenced too, which I thought was really interesting and I never really thought about before. Tell me more about this.
- [09:09]
Nedra Glover Tawwab
Yesterday I was watching a show with my daughter and she was saying, this is the person on the show who doesn't know a lot of stuff. I said, what does that mean? She's like, you know, the person who doesn't understand things. And I thought to myself, oh, she's saying stupid. But she's not saying stupid. She's. She's saying what's appropriate. She's saying, you know, this person doesn't know a lot of things. And I said, well, what are they good at? And so she was able to say, well, this person, they. They really, they're really good at baking. But everything else, like, they don't know anything. And so intellectual. It reminded me of intellectual boundari boundaries. Because the intellectual boundary is saying that people are stupid, they're dumb, they don't understand things, their ideas are off, they don't matter. As humans, we are strong in some areas and maybe not so strong in other areas. We may not think the same about certain things, but how do we communicate with people who think differently than usual? Is it appropriate to demean them? Is it appropriate to shame or smear them for having ideas? And sometimes, especially on social media, these ideas aren't even unsafe. It's how, you know, I've seen things where people are talking about flower arrangements and the, the comments are like, you're doing it wrong. Really? Isn't that about creativity? Like, you know, just. Just to stump on someone's differences is often a intellectual boundary, particularly when their differences does not harm them or other people.
- [10:57]
Jonathan Fields
You also talk about material boundaries. What are we talking about there?
- [11:01]
Nedra Glover Tawwab
Your stuff. That's your material, your possessions, your money. Those are your things and they should be respected. If you loan someone something, it should be returned in the way that you lent it out or, you know, there should be some idea about. This is my expectation for my car. This is my expectation for my home. You have some level of ownership over the things that you possess, and other people do too. This is a. This is one where, you know, there are laws around tearing up property. Like there are laws around violating material boundaries. It is a very serious thing and we feel, you know, very seriously about it. And yet it can be very hard to communicate to someone your expectations around your stuff.
- [11:57]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, I mean, and even sort of the lesser infractions where it's not a law thing, but Maybe like, you're living with roommates, right? You've got like four people in an apartment or a suite in college, or maybe like, you know, like you're in a new place and you're sharing space with people who maybe you're not even super comfortable with yet. Maybe you're kind of just more roommates and not quite yet friends. I have to imagine that this comes up all the time in those situations because people will have very different expectations about their stuff and about whether it's okay to share or to use. And if you do, how do you actually treat it? The last category and tell me if I have this right in it being that the sort of last one was time boundaries. Tell me more about this.
- [12:42]
Nedra Glover Tawwab
Absolutely. I think that is the one that many of us are most impacted by. We're constantly trying to figure out how to turn the clock back, get more time out of a day, manage our time better, all of these things. How do we develop healthier boundaries with time? And really, we have to be strategic about how we allow others to use our time and how we allow ourselves to use our time. Often we get very upset at people for wasting our time, for using too much of our time, when in actuality, we. We're in power of what they can waste, right? We're not giving our time away, we're allowing it to be used. And so if there is an issue with time boundaries, we really have to think about what can I do to manage the time that I have?
- [13:38]
Jonathan Fields
So how do you handle a situation, especially around time boundaries, where I feel like this really comes up often, probably where you have a particular expectation about what's okay and what's not okay with your time. But you exist within a greater culture or community where there's a norm. There's a cultural norm about what is and what isn't okay. And there's a big clash, like, say you work in a company and the expectation on your team is that the leader or the manager can call on anyone in the team at any given time. And that's kind of what people are saying yes to when they sign up for. And they're extraordinarily well compensated. And it's sort of like the team or the project or the company everyone aspires to be a part of. And the norm is you will be basically surrendering your life. I'm thinking back to a past part of my life where many, many years ago, I was a lawyer, actually, and I worked in a giant firm in New York City. And it was expected that you would work 80, 100 hours a week and if there was a call, you would show up that actually ended up putting me in the hospital because I honored that norm. I had never drawn my own boundaries. But I'm wondering how you deal with it when this is tied to something like your ability to earn your living. And there's this cultural norm that's really strong and it's really expected and it's been established since way before you showed up. And you're at a moment where you feel like if you set your own boundary, it may well leave you without a job.
- [15:09]
Nedra Glover Tawwab
I love talking to attorneys and accountants about time boundaries because those are industries where there is no concept of time boundaries. It's like, no, I have to do this. Like, this is a really important thing. And I often wonder, what if someone stopped doing it? What if we change the culture? Because I think what we're agreeing to is continuing in the culture that exists. Many other systems have been shifted simply by people changing. How do we say I will be the person on vacation not responding to this thing? How do we get other people to join us? How do we start to have these conversations? Now, I understand that when you agree to work in certain places that there is a culture of overworking. But we know that overworking doesn't mean that you're being more productive because you're often distracted, you're tired, you're all sorts of things. There's so many problems with overworking people. Burnout being the top one. So how do we create truly engaging work environments? It's not having people work 70 to 80 hours. If they're working 70 to 80 hours, man, if you let them just work 40, they'd be as productive as if they were in 90.
- [16:37]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, I mean, it's I, I, and I 100% agree with that. And yet still, if you're that person who's in that culture and you say no, there's a safe bet that you're going to lose your job. And let's say you have a family to support. It's got to be a brutally hard moment, you know, because you're trying to do what's in your best interest. What's in like the, the best interest of your well being, your physical and emotional well being. And, and at the same time, you're, you feel that there's a value around you potentially supporting yourself, supporting a family. So I wonder if there are these moments where drawing a boundary line has potentially much bigger implications. And you would love for that system you're working to change, but it hasn't yet. And so the decision to draw and hold to that boundary also has bigger consequences. And you kind of have to make a decision to say I'm acknowledging that doing this is going to prioritize my health or my well being and it may also have consequences, but it's sort of like a value based thing. It's important. It's so important to me that even if there are consequences, this is the thing I still have to do.
- [17:50]
Nedra Glover Tawwab
Yeah, I think that as you stated with your situation, the consequence for you personally was being hospitalized. So it's, it's almost as if pick your consequence. Do you want to not be able to work at all or do you want to at least try to change some of the things now with those career fields in particular, I think it's, there are small ways that we can place boundaries and that's how the boundary setting starts. Is not this grand. I'm not, you know, but it is these very small things that you can do to, to start allowing people to acknowledge that there are some boundaries in place. Now I have often been shocked by the people who say no one has boundaries. And you can think of one person even in that work environment that has boundaries. It's like, well, this person leaves every day at five. How, how I thought this was a system where no one could do it. What are they doing differently? How are they able to, to really manage this system in a different way? So I think the bigger thing here is how do we start small when we're in environments that will not accept our boundaries and we choose to stay in those environments. If we're choosing to stay, how do we have healthier boundaries in other areas? What are our self care practices? What are our relationships like? You can't have relationships that are chaotic. No self care and work 80 hours a week. Like you have to, to have some other things that are really holding up, holding you up so you can, you know, function in this 80 hour a week job. And I think the challenge therapeutically is everything is on fire, is not just that you are working 80 hours, it's you're working 80 hours. You have a terrible relationship with your brother. Your mother hasn't talked to you in four weeks. You can't keep a partner, your laundry is so. There are so many things. So yes, you want to be an attorney. Let's focus on that piece, you know, that piece. You don't want to change. You know, you, you want to stay there. But what about all of this other stuff that's also contributing to your, your boundary issues. That's contributing to the burnout. So there, there's typically not just one piece, is multiple pieces. Even in a system that you can't change. There are many other things in life that you to change so you can stay in this system that you want to be in.
- [20:28]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, that's so powerful and I didn't really think about it that way. There's sort of this compounded effect where you can sort of address what you can address and maybe that actually stabilizes the ship. It creates enough stillness and health that you can actually function a little bit better in this other area, even if it's not immediately changeable. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Good Life Project is sponsored by adt. So have you ever had that moment when you're finally away from home, maybe out for a rare free afternoon and your phone lights up with an alert you weren't expecting? Your heart skips, your mind starts racing, you're miles away wondering what's happening and wishing you could be in two places at once. That's exactly where smart home security steps in. ADT systems are built for real life moments like these, helping really keep your home safer with 24. 7 monitoring and rapid response when it matters most. Their systems are professionally installed by trained technicians. So from day one you know your home is being looked after with care and expertise. And with the ADT plus app, you can keep tabs on your home from virtually anywhere. It's a simple way to feel more grounded even when you're on the go. Don't wait to prepare your home for an emergency. When every second Counts, count on ADT, visit ADT.com or call 1-800-ADT ASAP. Good Life Project is sponsored by Kachava. So at the start of this year I set this simple but meaningful wellness goal. Stay consistent. Not extreme, not unsustainable, just steady daily choices that add up over time. And I've been tracking my training, getting outside more and paying closer attention to how I fuel my body so I can keep showing up with energy and focus. And that's where Kachava has become a really great part of my rhythm. It's an all in one nutrition shake made with high quality ingredients that supports energy and digestion, strength, metabolism, cognition and immunity. Just two scoops give you plant based protein, fiber, greens, adaptogens and more and it actually tastes great. I'll blend a vanilla with frozen berries and nut milk. And I also really love the chai flavor just quick, satisfying and done. No artificial flavors, colors or sweeteners. No fillers. Just clean nutrition that travels with you wherever the day leads. Stick with your wellness goals. Go to kachava.com and use the code Good Life for 15% off. That's Kachava K-A C-H-A-V-A.com code Good Life or just click the link in the show notes now
- [22:54]
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- [22:56]
Nedra Glover Tawwab
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- [23:01]
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- [23:28]
Jonathan Fields
One of the things that you mentioned earlier also is this notion of how boundaries are communicated. And I feel like that's got to be such a big part of this process, right? Is the communication side of it. Tell me more about your lens on how important that is and on how to effectively do it. And maybe also where people tend to stumble.
- [23:50]
Nedra Glover Tawwab
You know, speaking your boundaries can be done in two ways. We can verbalize it or we can behave differently. Oftentimes we are very disturbed by saying something to someone. I think of folks who say, oh my gosh, my friend calls me every day at 5 o' clock and she talks about blah blah blah and I don't want to hear it. And my first thought is, why do you answer the phone? Why do you answer the phone? Oh, because they're calling me. We have voicemail. We have text messages. You don't have to answer your phone if someone calls it. That's a boundary. I'm not always available by phone. There are times where I will not be available to you at 5pm what do you want? Leave me a text message. How do we. So that is a way, you know, maybe not answering the phone is a better way than saying, hey, I don't like it when you talk about blah blah blah. You can say that as well. That sometimes our conversations go to a space and I don't know how to support you. Can you tell me how to support you? Because you're having a reoccurring issue. So those are ways that we can say to people or show them. These are my boundaries. With boundaries. I think the challenge is often we try to control how a person will respond to the boundary. In doing that, we say a lot. I think you can state most boundaries in one to two sentences. Typically people will have an hour long conversation and they still haven't stated a boundary. They're problem talking. And then this happened, and this happened and I'd like you to fix this. And this is what happens with work environments. There has been, you know, little discussion of we need less hours and we're working too much has been the conversation. What is the solution? The solution is the boundary. I cannot do blank. Often we'll say, well, why would you invite me? I can't understand why you would want me to come there. You know that I'm really busy and blah, blah, blah. We still haven't said we're not coming. They still don't know. So how do we get to the point without giving all of this information? And we do it. I know why we do it. We want people to understand. We want them to persuade. We want to persuade them to think like us about this boundary. We want them to be okay with us saying no or okay with us being in disagreement or wanting something different. And unfortunately, people won't always get that. You can say the boundary with a smile, you can dress it up, you can do whatever you want to, and there are things that you will say that will unintentionally hurt other people. A no can be the worst thing that someone can hear. It can be no. I don't think kids like no. I don't think adults like no. We all want a yes all the time. I want to all the time. Yes, yes, yes, I'll help you. Yes. There are times when we hear no and we have to allow people to say no to us because they have boundaries and people aren't always available to us and we are not always available to them. So the biggest challenge that I see is this approval seeking with our boundaries. If people don't agree with my boundary, should I even have the boundary? The answer is probably yes. Yes. If it's a healthy boundary, I will say you should still have it even if the other person is wanting to have their way with you.
- [27:34]
Jonathan Fields
Maybe even more so at that point. Right. So I'm thinking about the language as you're sharing that my mind was thinking, okay, so how would I try and clearly establish a boundary? And it was in reference, especially to your thought that most boundaries can be clearly established, very likely in literally one or two sentences. And then you're just done. And I was wondering what those one or two sentences are in my Mind, I'm really curious how you think about this, and I'd love to learn from you. In my mind, it's almost like sentence one is here is my boundary, and sentence two is, this is why it's important to me. Does that feel healthy to you or unhealthy? Or how would you approach that? In a very practical way.
- [28:18]
Nedra Glover Tawwab
I think that's a healthy way to do it, to say, here is my boundary, and this is why it's important to me. Sometimes we just need to say, here is my boundary, depending on the person we're talking to, because the reason it's important to you might be a point of defensiveness, or it may be a place for them to initiate an argument. And we don't want boundary setting to turn into arguments. And sometimes with acceptance, explaining yourself by giving people context, feeling, and all of these things, they are able to talk you out of your boundary, convince you that you don't need them, or violate the boundary, and tell you that the vibe, the. The boundary isn't even important. They will inviolate that emotional space and say, well, why would you think that way about this? You know, what if you could do this instead? And now, not only did your, your boundary go out the window, they violated a whole new boundary. And so being careful about how you communicate things to people is a wonderful way to protect yourself from further boundary violations. Because there are some people, we can say things and they just get it, they care, they understand. And there are others who have created such egregious boundary violations that even saying something that would make sense to a thousand people, they will fight you about it.
- [29:49]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. I mean, I would imagine even if you said, like, here's my boundary, here's why it's important to me, there will be some people who will say, oh, but it shouldn't be important to you. That's not a valid reason. They'll literally reject your own personal experience and they'll reject why something matters to you and try, and I would imagine trying to argue that it shouldn't matter to you, that it shouldn't be important to you. And. And then you get into the whole back and forth of defending it. So I almost wonder whether you even drop that second thing and just say, here it is, and simply, this matters to me, so I'm gonna stand by it.
- [30:29]
Nedra Glover Tawwab
I like going with the one sentence sometimes. Two maybe, but I love the one sentence because it really lets people know what you feel about something. I think about a party invite, and if you don't want to go To a party, the best option is, no, no, thank you. Thanks for inviting me, but I won't be able to attend. When we say things like, no, I can't go because I have to pick my auntie up from the airport, people will figure out 15 ways for you to pick your auntie up from the airport and come to their party. The real reason you don't want to go is because you don't want to go. And it's okay to say, I won't be able to make it.
- [31:15]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, just succinct like that. And yet so many of us feel so uncomfortable just being direct like that. And I think it goes back to what you were talking about before is that we're trying to take care of the other person. At the same time, we're trying to establish our boundaries. And also, I think so many of us are not comfortable with the notion that, oh, if I do this, this will lead to conflict, and I don't want to have to deal with conflict, so I'll just back away from it rather than just being clear and standing with it. That I would imagine comes up in another scenario that has got to be really hard. And I would imagine especially now because people are sort of being housed together in really intense ways. When a person who. When you establish a boundary and then a person or a group of people, sometimes maybe it's a family member refuses to respect that boundary. And yet at the same time, maybe it's a parent, maybe it's a sibling, maybe it's a cousin who you're not going to walk away from them. Like, family is family and that's important to you. So this is not someone who can easily. If you establish your boundaries and you make it clear and you show that it's important and they repeatedly overstep them, they don't honor them, and yet they are a part of the family that you're not going to walk away from. Do you have thoughts on how to navigate that in a way that would be as comfortable as possible?
- [32:46]
Nedra Glover Tawwab
Repeating a boundary is very helpful. Over and over. It's almost like a parent repeating to a child, have you brush your teeth, Go brush your teeth, go brush your. I bet parents probably say that thousands of times. Put your shoes on, put your. Get your shirt off the floor. I meant the way that you have to repeat that. And then 20 years later you visit your kid and you realize, oh, my gosh, their shirts aren't on the floor. Perhaps we need to repeat more often and move away from the idea that saying it Once is enough. We're trying to change the relationship. And sometimes that change requires patience and practice when we aren't ready to leave. That doesn't mean that we should give up on our boundary, but that we need to lean more into repeating the boundary and really honoring it for ourselves. There are a lot of violations that occur that we are accepting. What is your consequence if this boundary is violated? If you say, hey, I understand you want me to babysit for you, but I need a heads up, you know, maybe a day or so before. And this family member keeps just, hey, I have to drop my kids off. Hey, I have to drop my kids off. What is the consequence of that behavior? Do you say yes every time? Who's violating the boundary there? I would say you, because you have the power in that situation with this family member, you don't want to cut off to say, no, I won't do it today. I have something else going on. They don't have to know what your something else is. You could be watching. Curb your enthusiasm. That's not their business. But no, not today. So how do you uphold this boundary that you set with this person? That is the new work. They won't listen to you. They won't honor it. How do you uphold the boundaries that they won't honor?
- [34:46]
Jonathan Fields
The last boundary that's popping into my head right now. We've been talking a lot about boundaries between you and other people. Other, whether it's a family member, a friend, a team at work, a boss. Then there's the boundaries. And you write about this with yourself. And I think this gets provoked most often with technology and social media these days is sort of like, okay, so I literally have to stop myself. I have to set limits for myself. It's like an internal boundary where I'm actually so compelled to do this thing, which if I do it in a certain way or for a certain amount of time, can be really destructive to my mental health. And yet I keep doing it. So it's like an internal boundary that we literally have to make this contract with ourselves.
- [35:35]
Nedra Glover Tawwab
We have to honor our own boundaries. And so often we look at other systems. When I think about financial issues, we get really upset at the credit card company. Why are they charging us a high fee? Why are they doing this? And it's like, it is us using the card, it is us downloading the app, it is us doing these things. Now, of course, there could be safer practices with any of these things, but how do we manage ourselves and not put everything on the systems to keep Us in check with ourselves, because there are things that can. That can get out of hand and we can, you know, the systems aren't even aware until there's some report support that comes out that, oh, this thing is causing this. Well, we know that. We felt that. How do we step away from things when it's starting to disturb who we are? Now with social media, we know that you get a hit of dopamine when you. When you get a like and all of these sort of things. So it's, you know, it's very strategic. However, I wonder if we could just go back to a time when we didn't even use it and we were okay with life. How do we put ourselves back in that space? I was talking to someone the other day, and I remember there was a time when you used to leave your home without a cell phone. Can you imagine such a thing? I was listening to Will Smith's book, and he was talking about having to wait on a phone call, be at home to wait on it. There was no cell phone. If you missed that call, you just had to wait for the person to call again. There was no caller id. There was no cell phone. It wasn't this constant connection. How do we say I can still be that even in a world with blank, I can still use cash, even in a world with access to this. Now, I'm not advocating for. Don't use credit cards. I like them. But if we have a problem with something, how do we set boundaries with ourselves to practice so we're having the experience that we want?
- [37:49]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, I feel like that's almost the ultimate frontier in the land of boundaries and maybe the most challenging. It's funny, as a writer, it's interesting because the way that I actually do my work is I'm on a device which also is the exact same device that I see the little things on it. I'm like, ooh, there's a notification here. There's a notification there who just checked in and stuff like that. And I've learned that just like you described, there is a cycle of dopamine and then the technology that uses intermittent reinforcement that creates almost an addictive behavior pattern. And for me, I literally will, because I know myself and I know the way that I create boundaries is to literally enable programs that turn off all other connectivity to ensure that I literally have to. I use technology against technology to enforce my own boundaries.
- [38:45]
Nedra Glover Tawwab
Yeah, you. You have to outsmart yourself. When I'm writing, I turn my phone off right now as we're talking. I have my focus on. So I'm not getting the ping to say new text message, new email because out of sight, out of mind. I'll I'll make sure my my writing space is full screen so I'm not even tempted by all of the bars at the top. So there are a lot of boundaries that I have to set in place for for myself to do the things that I want or need to do.
- [39:15]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, I love that. It feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well, since we come all the way back to our own ability to navigate our own boundaries personally and as well as interpersonally. So as we have this conversation in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up
- [39:36]
Nedra Glover Tawwab
to live a good life, you have to create it. I think of inventing what you want to see in your life, not holding other people accountable for providing it, but accepting ownership of creating what you want to have.
- [39:57]
Jonathan Fields
Thank you and we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Good Life Project is sponsored by the Drop by gnc. So if you've been locked in lately on your health and fitness, then then proper supplementation is probably very important to your daily routine. And thanks to gnc, it has never been easier to shop for your goals. For 90 years, GNC has been delivering the most cutting edge effective ingredients and products available and now you can cut through the clutter. With the Drop by gnc. You'll find the latest in everything from protein and creatine to weight management, immune support and so much more from all the top brands. We're talking Cadence, Wealthy, Bare Belts, Ghost, not to mention innovations like New GNC Amp. Creating this first of its kind formula combines creatine with my HMB and bioactive peptides to not just build muscle, but also repair and protect it in ways creatine alone simply can't. Or the Improved GNC Amp weighbolic, the most studied protein formula on the market, proven to significantly increase your strength and endurance. And now they've increased the protein and perfected the taste. You can get more of what's new and what's next only at the drop by GNC. Just search up gnc.com thedrop hi, this
- [41:08]
Stephanie (Jonathan's wife)
is Stephanie, Jonathan's wife. So over the last 10 years I've been dealing with everything from changes in my hair, skin, sleep, and even brain fog related to changing hormones. A lot of my friends have too, and it's so hard to get clear answers. That's why Alloy Health matters. They connect you with a menopause expert doctor who looks at the full picture, creates a personalized treatment plan and offers ongoing support with care delivered right to your door. Nearly 95% of women feel better in just two weeks. If something feels off, you don't have to navigate it alone. Try Alloy health. Go to myalloymy a l l o y.com and use the code Good Life today or just click the link in the show notes.
- [41:50]
Jonathan Fields
Good Life Project is sponsored by Ollie. So the start of a new year has a way of whispering that you should do more, be more, fix more. And honestly, that can get exhausting really quickly. Sometimes what actually helps is choosing support that feels doable and kind. And that's what stands out to me about Ollie. They're not chasing perfection. They focus on science backed supplements that meet you where you are and fit into real life. Especially for women who already have enough on their plates. One place I've been paying more attention lately is gut health. It's one of those quiet foundations that affects really how you feel all day. Ollie's probiotic mango gummies make taking care of yourself just feel more doable. They support your gut, digestive health and immune system. Three little wins in just two gummies. That kind of simplicity matters. Small consistent support without turning wellness into another full time job. If you want an easier way to support your gut and overall well being this year, give Ollie a try. Head to O l l d y.com now or just click the link in the show notes. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. So I love Nedra's take on boundaries. I am so excited to complement her lens with more deep insights and observations from Terry Cole. So before earning a Master's degree in clinical Psychotherapy from nyu, Terry ran a talent agency for actors and supermodels. She was a typical called Type A overachiever, zero balance, no internal peace, driven by ambition, living on planes and serving as a business executive, confidant, advisor, surrogate, parental figure, and bounding between nearly every role with every person imaginable. She began to realize every part of work and life was bleeding into every other part of work and life and the net effect was that everything was bleeding out. So something had to change. She wanted her life back and she wanted to do something that felt more driven by meaning of service. So she made a radical left turn, changing direction, went back to school, started a partnership in life and family and therapy practice at the same time now that's been her devotion for over two decades. What she learned in the trenches with her high profile clients informed and really continues to inspire the work she does today. And she's been on a mission. Her dharma she shares is teaching women how to attract and sustain healthy, vibrant, real love into their lives and establish and maintain effective boundaries with ease and grace. And that latter part, she's come to believe, is at the heart of so much interpersonal struggle and is perpetually at the center of nearly every therapeutic engagement. So she figured it was time to share what she's learned in her book, Boundary the Essential Guide to Talk True, Be Seen, and Finally Live Free. Here's Terry. You make a statement sort of early on in your book that effectively says without great boundaries, you cannot live a great life. That is a bold statement. Tell me more about that.
- [44:44]
Terri Cole
Well, it's true. I mean, two and a half decades in the trenches with my therapy clients, I can see what disordered boundaries. And I think we should establish what that means, right? What are boundaries? It is you knowing, prioritizing and communicating your preferences, your desires, your limits and your deal breakers in your life to all the people that's in a professional setting. And of course they'll be different. The way you would do it with a boss is different than a lover. It's different than a subordinate. But it is the act of being able to succinctly and effectively communicate who you are, what you stand for, what you want, what you won't stand for, what your limits are. To me, that is what being fluent in the language of boundaries requires. So if you cannot do that, and the reason I wrote a book is because most of my practice is super high functioning women. And I would see the same thing over and over. Meaning the presenting problem would be different addicted person in their life. You know, family of origin is a shit show. Whatever the thing is, had a different reason. Like the thing that got them through the door and onto my couch was different. But then when I start unraveling, it would all come back to, in one form or another, the inability to communicate, establish and uphold healthy boundaries in their lives. So I was like, this is literally a phenomenon that is not unique to these women. And then I started teaching this in the world. And then I have women from 120 different countries in a boundary course that I created because there was such a demand for it and the pain points were the same. So I was like, there is a need for someone to teach this as an actual language. You know, Jonathan, it's Not just my clients. We all listen. We teach what we most need to learn, like 99.2% of the time. Where I was raised, like so many women, to be a good girl, right. I was raised to be nice. And to have niceness be like, the top virtue that you could ever aspire to is for people to think that you're nice. And so what does this lead to? This leads to us saying yes when we want to say no. Over giving, over feeling, over committing, over functioning all under the umbrella, the hope of being kind and being nice. And yet, let's really break it down. Is it actually nice to say yes when you want to say no? It's not. It's dishonest. It isn't nice. And then what happens is we are literally giving corrupted intel, bad data to the people in our lives. We feel empty, we feel unseen. We feel unknown. Because we are unseen and unknown if we're not talking true. And here's what stops most people from doing this. They don't have the words they fear. They have all of these myths around what does it mean to be a woman in particular with healthy boundaries. People equate healthy with harsh. Like, healthy boundaries with having harshness, being bitchy, rejecting, going out and confronting everyone. I'm gonna punch everyone in the face with my boundaries. You're not. And that's not what it means. Right. So I don't look at boundaries, like weak and strong, because that's not how they are. It's are they functional or dysfunctional? Right. Do they accomplish the thing that we want them to accomplish, which might be deepening intimacy in our relationships, might be protecting ourselves. Right. So really getting it out of the right boundaries and wrong boundaries or weak and strong boundaries, I don't look at them that way because literally, that isn't the way they are. Because dysfunctional boundaries come. And I actually have a thing, a boundary quiz that's out. It's just go boundaryquiz.com where you could learn, like, what is your primary boundary type? And there are six, really Seven. If you include, like, healthy boundaries, where disordered boundaries, you could be the ice queen, which is someone whose boundaries are too rigid, where people don't agree with you. You're kind of like, f you, and I'm going to do it myself, or I'll do it my. You know, if it's not my way, then get out. Right. Those are too rigid. Or you could be the chameleon, where you're very impacted by what others want. And so when I'm with You, Jonathan, if you like that, then I'm like that too. And if I'm with someone else, then I can go with that. That's a disordered boundary style. If you are the peacekeeper, you're very dialed into not wanting there to be conflict and not just in your relationships. You don't want there to be conflict anywhere around you. You're always sort of looking to be like, where can I de escalate what all of those disordered boundary styles. And it doesn't mean you have to be like that all the time to have that still be primary when you're out of balance, right? When we're stressed because it's kind of easy. Ish. To have okay. Boundaries when life is easy, they really. It really gets revealed when we're under a lot of pressure. But you can, of course. I wrote a whole book about how to learn how to do it and stay balanced in it. Each of us has a downloaded boundary blueprint, I call it, which is, you know, this is in your unconscious mind. So this is the paradigm that we go out into the world and we think this is the way the world is. Like, put quotes around that, right? This is the way relationships are. This is the way I should interact with these people or those people. And we didn't need our parents or parental impactors, as I call them, because they might not have been parents per se, but the adults in our life, they didn't need to be like, this is the way it is. We just. This is modeled behavior that we learn, and so we're impacted by that, right? Let's just say you had a parent who was, you know, a pushover. Like, that was their primary boundary style. Saying yes when they really want to say no. Always like bitching and complaining about how entitled neighbor Betty is. How about just saying no to Betty? But that wasn't a possibility, right? But Betty, what a jerk she is, you know, which can also happen when we're not doing our own boundary thing. We just cannot believe how entitled people are. And you're like, why are you surprised? People are going to ask you to do the most ridiculous things and you can get really mad or you can learn to say no. And it's so much easier just to learn to say no. Anyway, your family of origin, just like my family of origin, there was a particular way that you interacted. It might have been in an enmeshed way where, like, everyone knew what was going on with everyone else and everyone was talking about everyone else's business. Or it might have been More separate. Right. Those are boundary things. How close, how far away, how your family interacted with the rest of the world. Some families are open systems. That was my family, where friends can come and go, the door is open, friends can sleep over, there's movement. Some families are closed systems. Nobody comes in and out, just the family. There is more of a distrust for the outside world, and that impacts what we think is appropriate to share with other people. The way that we share that information. And that is an emotional boundary issue. You see how it's all sort of connected.
- [52:58]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. I mean, that makes a lot of sense. The idea of a bit of a boundary blueprint using your language makes a lot of sense too. Right. Because I think we all have. Whether it's our family of origin, whether it's our chosen family, whether it's the circumstances of our lives when we're coming up, it leaves this imprint on us which eventually becomes this blueprint as you describe it. There's a line in the book where you write, when you were a kid, your home was effectively a perfect storm of COVID communication and emotional dysfunction which followed you as a young adult. Your boundaries become protecting yourself, sarcasm, manipulating people, and eventually substance to sort of cope with this. And you roll into a young adult. You're out in the working world performing, like you said, at a really high level, and then you change careers and you're running a modeling agency and you're out there doing big deals and from the outside looking in. I think the tendency for so many people is to say, well, that person has to be really well adjusted and have healthy boundaries because they seem to be functioning in such an extraordinary level at work and life. And yet even for you, and I guess that's a big part of why you do what you do now, it was the exact opposite.
- [54:20]
Terri Cole
It's funny, the illusion that being driven. Part of the story in the book is that I was so driven to succeed and I just thought, I'm just ambitious. That's all. Nothing. And then, of course, a bunch of therapy later, you're like, oh, I'm trying to prove to my father that I was not the wrong gender because I felt like he wanted a boy and I was his fourth daughter and blah, blah, blah. So you start to look at your own motivation, of course. And when I started, that's when things started shifting of, oh, I'm being driven by fear of unworthiness. I'm being driven to prove something. So keep in mind the external world. Right. Success looks like success, whether it's driven by pain Blood, sweat, tears, whether it's driven by joy, inspiration, being energized to the outside world, it just looks like, wow, you were running a talent agency in your early 30s. That's amazing. But at what cost? And I think that this is something that you bring up, a great point of what it looks like. And I say, don't make any assumptions. And I don't make assumptions about people because all of my, so many of my private clients have been these incredibly high functioning women who are so capable. And in fact, in the book, I talk about the codependency, connection to disordered boundaries and that over the years, I mean, I struggled with this myself. Codependency. We'll talk a little bit about what it is, because I think there's a lot of different ideas and there's a lot of wrong ideas about what it is. So if you look at, with my clients, I was seeing this behavior with them, codependency. But anytime I would say the word codependent, they'd be like, what? You crazy? Hello? Everyone's dependent on me. I'm the one who's getting shit done. What are you talking about? Like, what do you mean? Like the Melody Beatty codependent. No more idea that codependency is only you being involved with an addict and covering for them when their boss calls. Right. Like, like it's. No, that. That is not the codependency that, that I've seen. And so I actually came up with a new terminology called a high functioning codependency because your boundaries are still disordered and it's still dysfunctional. But it's very hard to see the same way that you were like, oh, we look at success and people are like, you must be crushing it and super happy. This is very much the same. So think of highly capable human beings who it's almost like, you know, Ginger Rogers was doing everything Fred Astaire was doing, except she was doing it backwards and in heels. That's like these women in my practice are so high functioning that they actually are getting it all done, but they are getting it all done at the expense of themselves and their mental health and their wellness. And from my perspective, high functioning codependency and codependency itself is being overly invested in the feeling states, the decisions, the outcomes of the people in your life to the detriment of your own internal peace or your own life experience. So, you know, because I know, you know, you gotta be very careful with your words. Cause I've had so many people say, what's wrong with you caring about the people that I love? I'm like, hello, I'm not saying don't care. I'm saying to the detriment that when something happens to someone you love and if they're not a minor child. Right. I'm obviously not talking about minor children if it feels like it's happening to you. And I know that's what it feels like because I am a recovering high functioning codependent where the. The urgency to do something, to fix, to come up with a solution for that person, my sister, that my cousin, the person I love is so great that everything else is going away until I can figure that out. That's codependency. Because when you think about what codependency really is, it is overt and covert bids for control.
- [58:46]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And control very often to the demise of you, your lifestyle, your happiness, your health, let alone the fact that it is one of those words which is a proxy for security, which is a proxy for certainty, which can never be had. So it's like the ultimate form of suffering. It is, Yeah. I mean, that also really feels like it ties in with this concept that you share around. I guess it's almost at the blueprint level too, of the notion of secondary gain. Deconstruct a little bit more this notion of secondary gain, because I think it's really fascinating.
- [59:22]
Terri Cole
Yeah, I do too. This is a notion. A lot of times I teach about it and say how to get unstuck. Right. That we don't understand why we're stuck in certain behaviors, our own behavior, or we're in repeated situations in relationships. Or we say we really want to do this thing, but then somehow we just can't manage to do this thing. And secondary gain is the unobvious gain from staying stuck somewhere. Right. So it's not primary gain. It is the hidden benefit or relief or something that you don't even know you're getting from it. Because obviously none of us consciously wants to stay stuck in a frustrating cycle of whatever the questions that we ask to reveal. Secondary gain that you say, what do I get to not feel, not face or not experience by staying stuck here? You know, I had a client who, you know, claimed all she wanted was to be in a relationship, like she really wanted a good relationship. And then she put this stipulation on she was going to get back in the dating pool when she lost ten pounds. I kept being like, you're just, no, I don't see why that needs to be There, like, you're great, and why. But, you know, as therapist, you. You know, you know, you think that, and you go, okay, well, something's happening here. Let's. Let's just let this thing play out. And then finally. And she couldn't do it. She would. Every week. Then what we would focus on is how she fell off the wagon. And then she ate carbs, even though she wasn't gonna. And she did this thing and that thing, and how she's failing, failing, failing with the. Losing the ten pounds. And so finally I was like, why don't we go at this from a secondary gain point of view? What do you get to not face, not feel, not experience by not losing the ten pounds? You know, you don't need to be a therapist to know what those things were. I don't have to be rejected. I don't have to be vulnerable in a real way. I don't have to get into a relationship even though I want to and feel like I don't have the skills to maintain health. There was a whole myriad of things. And of course, you know, miraculously or not, once we unpacked all of those things, seriously, she didn't need to lose. She lost two pounds. Was like, I'm going back on the apps right now. I was like, exactly. Because you didn't even need to lose any weight to begin with. So there's something valuable about going, huh? There is something in this for me without blaming, right? Without being like, why am I like that? Or what's wrong with me? It's just having a deeper understanding of the way that our minds work. And that's a lot of what my goal was with this book was to make these concepts accessible because people are smart. I don't think you need to be in a therapist's office for 20 years. Hey, I love it. I've been a therapist for 30 years. It's my fave. But that's me, right? That's a choice. I really believe that. The reason I wrote this book is that I believe that people are smart and they just need a guide. They just need powerful questions. They just need, like, I'm nobody's guru. Not in this book and not anywhere, but I'm a damn good GPS to get people to the answers that they have within them. They just don't know how to get to the basement. And so that's really what the book is. It's a book and a sort of a workbook all in one. Yeah, there's a whole bunch of things, like when you think about boundaries for as long as I have. It's like you suddenly see them not everywhere, but kind of everywhere. And what is functional and what is dysfunctional, Right. What is healthy and what isn't healthy. And again, I always say this when people are like, you know, they want to dispute the thing. Like, well, I do this and I'm happy, then there's literally no problem. This book is about if you are in pain, if you do not feel seen, if it is difficult for you to talk true. If it's difficult for you to set a limit and prioritize your own needs, preferences, desires. There's a zillion and five ways that I teach you in this book how to do it. It's like a step by step process. Step one, until you literally are a boundary boss. Like, that's. That's exactly what we're doing in the book. But I also don't think that everyone wants what I want. And my judgment. I say that like, and it sounds like I'm kidding, but actually I really mean it. Like, I have no judgment for anyone who says I'm happy and satisfied with my life. I don't want to be seen. That is your right, honestly. But if you have any of the things that Jonathan and I have talked about, then that's who this book is for, you know?
- [64:15]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. You wrap up the work in this book with language, which I thought was fascinating because we come full circle, you know, everything that we're talking about here is a process. And one of the big fears in any context is, okay, so now I get it. Now I think I see myself a little bit more clearly and I see the nature of the dynamic between me and XYZ person, community, world, whatever it may be. But I don't have the language to understand how to even begin to address it. So I was fascinated that you actually devoted a whole chunk of the last part of the book to literal, verbatim scripts. I was just kind of curious, you know, like, why that was so important to you.
- [65:05]
Terri Cole
Because one thing that I've heard tens of thousands of times is I was gonna say something and I didn't have the words. And so what I started doing in my therapy practice years ago is I'd created these, like, sentence starters when someone needed to make a simple request or someone needed to set a limit or just to make it easy to share your preference, whatever the situation was. So each client would be like, oh, I don't even know. So in the beginning, I would, like, do it for each person and Then you start being like, all right, I'm gonna put them in one place and just keep handing out my little paper. And then I realized as time went on that there are many schools of thought and there are many different problem solving strategies and techniques that, like, I'm not the only person sort of doing this, but also that there's a way for you. There's something for you to say in every situation. So actually, I go through the process of naming, like, a billion different scenarios in the book. And what are one or two things that you might say? Like, what are one or two things you might say to someone who incessantly interrupts when you're talking? Right. What are one or two things you might say for someone who is asking you an intrusive question about something that's none of their effing business? Now, maybe it's Aunt Betty. So we don't want to be, like, too mean about it, but how do we. What is the strategy to not punch Aunt Betty in the face, but to not answer a question that we don't want to answer? So, yes, language.
- [66:47]
Jonathan Fields
We all need it, including every single person I've ever met. And I'm raising my hand right here. I just found it. I found it, really. I'm somebody who obsesses over language, and I found it really interesting for me to sort of like. And I also, as a general rule, I kind of don't like it when other people give me language and prompts, but I found it was really interesting because as I was reading through some of the prompts, I was like, like, okay, so one. Just over ego for a hot minute and see the value of this. And I was like, oh, this would have been so valuable then. And that conversation, oh, I wish I had these five words to just understand how to ease into it in a more graceful way. Or even maybe that would actually give me the courage to even say something where I normally would have just backed away. So it was interesting. I thought it was incredibly valuable, but it was interesting for me to sort of observe my own response to the prompts, which was super cool.
- [67:45]
Terri Cole
It's funny. I'm the same, though. I actually normally don't love it. And yet when in that part of the book, I always say, listen, I will always give you a funny way to do something too, because humor is such a. It's such a thing for me. I diffuse situations with humor, and I feel like sometimes I can just say something if your coworker's like, so, wait, I heard you got a raise how much money are you making? And being able to just say, oh, trust me, Bob, not half what I'm worth. You're just not answering the question. And every single either it's a sentence stem or a whole entire thing, it's literally just a framework for you to go, okay, maybe I would say it this way or I would switch out this word, but it gives you somewhere to start, you know?
- [68:37]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, no, I love that. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So hanging out in this container Good Life Project if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what
- [68:47]
Terri Cole
comes up honestly means to talk true, be seen, and live free. To me, that's what it means.
- [68:57]
Jonathan Fields
Thank you. Hey, before you go, be sure to tune in next week for a really meaningful conversation with a dear old friend of mine, Gretchen Rubin, about what actually happens when kids leave home and how that season reshapes identity, relationships and purpose. Be sure to follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app so it lands right in your feed. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, John Jonathan Fields editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Christopher Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did. Because you're still listening here. Do me a personal favor. A seven second favor. Share it with just one person. I mean, if you want to share it with more, that's awesome too. But just one person? Even then, invite them to talk with you about what you both discovered to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter. Because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project.
- [70:21]
Nedra Glover Tawwab
Par le tu francais hablas espanol parlui Italiano?
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