The Courage to Change When Everyone Wants You to Stay the Same | Danté Stewart

Summary

Good Life Project Podcast Summary

Episode: The Courage to Change When Everyone Wants You to Stay the Same | Danté Stewart

Host: Jonathan Fields
Guest: Danté Stewart
Date: September 1, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Jonathan Fields speaks with Danté Stewart—writer, minister, and cultural critic—about the deeply personal and communal courage required to change, especially when others want you to remain the same. Through Danté’s own story of moving from college football to ministry and eventually walking away from the faith community he dedicated his life to, the conversation delves into generational shifts in religion, the metaphorical and real fires that shape identity, the metabolizing of suffering, and the ongoing journey of becoming one’s true self.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Generational Changes & Religion

Timestamps: 03:05–07:19

• Jonathan Fields brings up a recent survey on religiosity, noting dramatic declines especially among Gen Z.
• Danté Stewart responds by contextualizing the “massive exit” from religion:
  • Young people feel exhausted and disillusioned by the failure of religion to live up to its ideals.
  • The internet and increased global connectedness give people options, allowing more individualized expressions of spirituality.
  • Stewart specifically critiques Christianity’s unhealthy entanglement with politics:

    “People are tired of the ways in which faith has been used as a weapon to be wielded rather than a world to be ventured in and explored.” (Dante Stewart, 05:47)

  • Suggests that modern faith institutions often resist the curiosity and questioning that’s natural (and necessary) for emerging generations.

2. The Nature of Change & Courage

Timestamps: 07:19–13:51

• Stewart draws on the story of Jesus challenging tradition, noting that religious growth requires courage—even if it means being seen as rebellious or “wild.”

• Conversation turns to communal resistance to change:

  • Admits that both individuals and communities struggle deeply with letting go of established beliefs.
  • The risk of being ostracized is real—but so is the creative possibility of changing the story about oneself.

  “Communal morality means absolutely nothing without communal grace.” (Dante Stewart, 13:51)

3. The Fire Metaphor: Suffering, Identity, and Growth

Timestamps: 17:15–24:29

• Stewart’s memoir, Shouting in the Fire, uses “fire” as a multifaceted metaphor:
  • Fire as struggle, challenge, and societal pain (especially from Stewart’s perspective as a young Black man in rural South Carolina).
  • Also as internal spark, transformation, vulnerability, and courage.
• Stewart emphasizes that fire forges as much as it burns:

  “The fire is about the heat, the struggle…but it’s also about an internal spark…The only thing that protects vulnerability is courage.” (Dante Stewart, 18:53)

• Both agree there’s no real way “around” life’s fires—one must go through them to grow:

  “The only way out is through.” (Dante Stewart quoting Robert Frost, 21:56)

4. Metabolizing Suffering

Timestamps: 21:56–25:17

• Stewart describes learning to “move suffering” and not let it paralyze:
  • References Mary Oliver’s poem “I Worried” as inspiration for facing, rather than avoiding, anxiety and grief.
  • The only way to metabolize suffering is to be present with it and use its energy to move forward.

5. Shrinking, Safety, and Identity

Timestamps: 25:17–35:35

• Stewart discusses the survival mechanism of “shrinking” (becoming less visible):

  • For Black Americans, sometimes invisibility is an act of survival, not just a fear of rejection.
  • True growth and selfhood mean pushing against this pattern, but acknowledging the real risks involved.
  • Shares a moving story about his grandfather mobilizing Black voters in segregated South Carolina as an act of radical faith.

  “To show up in spite of that…is the ultimate expression of faith because there’s the possibility of loss. And you believe, you begin to believe that even if I lose something, I don’t lose everything.” (Dante Stewart, 33:16)

• Stewart insists the journey is more important than a single moment of “arrival.”

  “Every day I wake up and…ask what can I do today to give me life? That’s the good life.” (Dante Stewart, 51:09)

6. Leaving Communities and Trusting Evolution

Timestamps: 38:00–46:41

• Stewart shares the personal and professional fallout from leaving a faith community that didn’t fit, likening it to the biblical story of Jesus forging his own path.

• The importance of “safe landing” places and community support during times of major change and reinvention.

• Uses the metaphor of jumping back into a pool after a long time away—courage and faith require remembering past bravery and trusting the process of personal evolution.

  “You’re afraid right now to jump again because you believe that this time is going to be the time to ruin you without realizing that you’ve jumped and swam so many times before.” (Dante Stewart quoting a friend, 42:53)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Religious Disillusionment:

  “People are exhausted…we have seen the slow kind of leak of religious insufficiency, you know, and it has now turned into a kind of all out massive poor…” (Dante Stewart, 05:20)

• On Communal Evolution:

  “It’s like, whatever we receive and whatever we embody, it works. And so, it’s very difficult to allow yourself to go through changing your mind about something…” (Dante Stewart, 12:12)

• On Navigating Fire:

  “The only way to get through the fire is to go through the fire.” (Dante Stewart, 21:56)

• On Shrinking for Safety:

  “To be young and black and American, like, you really do…gotta shrink and become invisible to survive this country. …A lot of times it’s easier to put yourself out there when you got a lot to lose. It’s much harder to put yourself out there when you got everything to lose.” (Dante Stewart, 30:44)

• On Faith and Jumping:

  “The faith muscle atrophies, the bravery muscle atrophies because oftentimes communities…make that bravery muscle atrophy.” (Dante Stewart, 41:28)

• On Modern Becoming:

  “Every version of the self matters…The journey matters every day we wake up and decide we’re going to take it.” (Dante Stewart, 49:25)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:05–07:19 | Generational exodus from religion, faith, and disillusionment | | 07:19–13:51 | The challenge and necessity of communal and personal change | | 17:15–21:56 | The “fire” metaphor for suffering and transformation | | 21:56–25:17 | Metabolizing suffering; Robert Frost and Mary Oliver’s poetic wisdom | | 25:17–35:35 | Shrinking for survival and the courage to reclaim visibility | | 38:00–46:41 | Stewart’s journey leaving a faith community; the “jumping” metaphor | | 46:54–51:25 | Embracing continual change and defining the good life |

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Tone & Takeaways

The tone is raw, candid, and hopeful. Stewart is deeply honest about ongoing struggles—he’s not past the “fire,” and admits to present fear and challenge even as he encourages others. The conversation challenges listeners to:

• Examine the pressures to stay the same versus the courage it takes to change.
• Consider how community and personal history can both support and hinder self-actualization.
• Recognize that authenticity and belonging are continually negotiated, not settled once and for all.
• Value the evolving journey over a final moment of arrival.

Closing Reflection:

“To live a good life is … every day, life presents a new opportunity to be more of who you are…The good life is a life in which you can look at everything you became and look at everything you came from and realize it meant something…” (Dante Stewart, 50:31)

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For those who haven’t listened:
This episode is both an invitation and a challenge—to step into the fire, trust your evolution, and do so knowing that true belonging and transformation may require you to disappoint others, lose safe harbors, but always gain more of yourself.

Transcript

[Jonathan Fields]

So what happens when a college football player becomes a minister only to realize the very faith community he's dedicated his life to isn't actually where he feels like he belongs? And what if that moment of truth reveals something far bigger about why an entire generation is walking away from organized religion and what they might be walking toward? These questions kind of crackled through the conversation I had with Dante Stewart as we explored what it really means to stand in your truth when the cost of authenticity feels devastatingly high. What started as a discussion about spirituality and religion in modern life transformed into a profound exploration of courage and belonging and the fierce grace that it takes to grow beyond the boundaries others set forth. Dante is an award winning writer, cultural critic and minister whose work appears in the New York Times, the Atlantic, Washington Post, and more. His critically acclaimed memoir, Soutin in the Fire examines faith, identity and belonging in a racially fractured America. And a former college football player turned theologian and essayist, Dante brings both intellectual rigor and just raw emotional honesty to every conversation. Through powerful personal stories, he really shines a light on what becomes possible when we just trust our evolution, even as others want us to stay the same. And his surprising take on how to metabolize suffering rather than avoid it really got me thinking. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project.

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[Jonathan Fields]

There's a question that I would love to get your take on. I think it was just last week I saw one of the sort of like giant survey agencies came out with a poll the that looked at religiosity over a period of a long window of time and they broke it down for the first time that I saw by boomers, Gen Xers, millennials and Gen Z. And I think we've all heard that people on the whole are getting less and less religious over time. What was really surprising for me to see was that Gen Z in particular, there's been a massive exit from, from religion, from like basically all faiths. I'd love your take on that. Like, what, what are your thoughts on that?

[Dante Stewart]

I think, first of all, thank you for having me on here. When I heard that I was going to get a chance to speak with y', all, it's very much a welcome invitation. So I'm really excited to be here with y'. All. I think for me to answer that question, I can kind of only answer out my own experience. I think on some level people are tired. I think people are tired of the way in which like religion has not lived up to its own kind of ideals. And on another level, I think people, we're more connected, even though we're more kind of disillusioned with one another, in a very real way, we're more connected between humans than we've ever been before. Which means I think people are more sensitive to their religious experiences, to vastly diverse religious experiences. And I think people realize that you got options. You, when you got options, you realize that you can kind of allow your expression, your expression of your spirituality to kind of fit what you need. I think that that may be a part of it. I think people are exhausted, young people are just tired of the way religion has gone. And you know, we have seen the slow kind of leak of religious insufficiency, you know, and it has now turned into a kind of all out massive poor. And you talking about the way in which. And I'm particularly thinking about Christianity, because I'm Christian. The ways in which people linked and unnecessarily tied Christianity to politics in the most unhealthy way. And people are saying, well, if this is what you believe that your faith is to embody, then I don't want anything to do with that. And I think people are, you know, just tired of the ways in which faith has been used as a weapon to be wielded Rather than a world to be ventured in and explored. You know, as I think about my own kind of relationship with faith and is ever evolve in nature, you know, for me, I'm. I'm. I think as I get older, I get a little bit more sensitive and expansive to realize that, like, you know, I'm not the only one that got something to offer to this world. You know, we're humans. We get to offer, you know, something to contribute to the good life. And that means that, like, we have to be diverse in our approach and in our experience. And whenever that doesn't, you know, necessarily live up to his idea, then we get a chance to, like, change it. And I think, you know, people like, hey, I get another option, and I get a better shot at this than the way I've experienced. I'm willing to take that shot.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah, I mean, that really resonates with me. And it kind of goes along with what I was thinking a little bit too. I'm curious what you think about this, because I've kind of been looking. I was wondering about this stat. And I've always had this sense that even beyond religion, that young generation, Gen Z in particular, and even younger millennials, they're less willing to toe the line and more willing to say, to actually kick the tires and be like, how is this actually working for me? And if I look at my parents or grandparents, the above me, how has it worked out for them too? And if this has been centered in their life and I look at them and I'm actually not. I'm not really seeing the outcomes that I'd love to see or the impact. And then I look at my own life and I'm like, I'm kind of not buying into it. I feel like younger generations, and maybe this has always just been younger generations, right? It feels like they're less willing to basically just adopt what's been handed down to them as a sacred transmission. Don't question it, don't challenge it, just do it. Abide by it. And they're kind of like, now I need to figure out, like, I want to know the why and I want to know the how. And I need to see if this actually fits for me. And a lot of them are deciding it doesn't. I mean, what's your take on that?

[Dante Stewart]

Yeah, I think. I think that's true. I know that a lot of people, you know, you start talking about, like, philosophy and moral philosophy. You know, there are people who say, like, there is not. They see the limitations of utilitarianism and the usefulness of a thing, you know. And I think there is something that good about actually questioning is this thing actually working the way it was intended to work? Now, for me, and I can only speak for Christianity, I think that we have to challenge what we mean by work. I think. I think older generations, many of their ideas of working was, you know, I kind of have my kind of own individual relationship with God or I have my relationship with my church community and, you know, my life. Religion is just a part of another aspect of the web of experience rather than like, religion should actually, like, do something to change the world we live in, you know. Now, granted, I'm black American, so, you know, my. My experience of religion would be very catered to, like being Southern and black, which means that, like, religion is like, almost totalizing in a sense that, like, God is in everything and everywhere and everything can be move and altered and change. And that religion can be a force for good. Even if, you know, the kind of oxymoronic ways religion is used as an instrument of control, you know, I think that, like, younger generations, they're more willing to be like, I bet. Cool. That don't work for me. I'm out. See you later. Period. I think there's something useful about that too, though, because I think, like, life gets boring, at least to me. I'm a writer. You, you know, I'm a writer. I'm a person that goes into, like, art museums, and I can sit in art museums and like, you know, like, just explore the art museums and find something generous that, like sitting and returning and questioning and looking out in the world and, you know, being adventurous and things like that. So for me, you know, as a personality type, I'm kind of more adventurous and I look forward to, like, expansion and evolution. Some people's personality types aren't like that. But like, for me, I'm like. The other day I was thinking about Jesus, and there's a story in the Bible where Jesus says no to his parents and he. He says no to his parents. They're looking for him. And he said, I'm going about doing my father's business. Parents don't went away. He doing his own thing. And I think about that story and the other part of that story where it says, like, you know, he. Jesus grew in wisdom and in stature and the religion of that day, going to synagogue and things like that. Jesus, if we look at his story, that means that, like, yo, he matured, he was able to say no, and he was able to grow and Expand and even be different than the kind of received religion that his parents were engaging in, the rituals that they were engaging in. Not saying that, you know, he was one to, like, uphold the system or tear it all the way down, but I think there's something generative there to be thinking about. Okay, if Jesus could do it, you know, then why can't we? Then why can't I? You know, if he has to grow in wisdom and stature and that growing for him allowed him to grow his theology to challenge the ways that people were embodying their faith. Even if it meant that, like, you know, people would think that he is wild, he's crazy, he was willing to do it, he was brave enough and courageous enough to do it. Then if it's good enough for him, then it should. At least we should have grace enough for it to be good enough for young people today.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah, I mean, it's such an interesting take. What you're describing is somebody who's sort of like, looking at something that was said, this is the way to be, and him saying, I'm going to get curious about that and not resonating with me. So I need to actually, I need to say no, and I need to go figure out what is resonant for me. And I feel like faith these days across so many traditions doesn't create the room for that. They don't create space for that. It's sort of like, this is the way it is. This is the way it's always been. There are a small number of sort of anointed people who will tell you what this means. And whatever that translation is, isn't really supposed to be challenged. And I think a lot of folks are not okay with that anymore.

[Dante Stewart]

Not at all. I mean, when have we ever been, you know, we're humans, you know, when have we ever been good at other people challenging us? Like, I'm in therapy and like, you know, I don't like when my therapist be like, well, let me challenge you on something that you deeply hold. And I'm a fighter, too. I love to fight. I mean, I love to squabble. I love to argue. I am a very opinionated individual. And I think that, like, you know, we, as human beings, we aren't really good at changing our minds or evolving or expanding. And I think part of it is about fear. Not even bad. You know, it's. It's. It's like whatever we receive and whatever we embody, it works. And so it's like, it's very difficult to allow yourself to go through changing your mind about something that your community, when you think about, like, for me, when I think about morality, you know, I think that morality is also like a communal project, right? So the community, you know, determine what's good, what's right, what's fair, and that's going to differ based on, you know, various communities. This is me using my sociology degree from glimpse. So, like, these communities are going to generate their own kind of standards of meaning and things like that. Not saying. I'm not saying that they're right. You know, it just. Sometimes it is now, in order for, for you to be someone, to be like, all right, bet I'm going to try and, like, explore, be more curious. You have the possibility of, like, making yourself like, a recipient of punishment or ostracization or whatever they call it and things like that. You can be, like an outsider. I mean, some people like to be loners. It's cool. But some people who would want to generate, like, meaning and contribute to the community, sometimes they may struggle with being considered an outsider. And I think that, like, like, like, sometimes that fear is not about, like, what we actually believe. It's about what we believe that people will become if we reject the projections that we're projecting on the world about what we should be and what we should together. And so I think there is nothing wrong to me with changing your mind, saying, like, I don't know or I haven't thought about that. Let me think a little bit deeper about that. But oftentimes we live in a culture, we just don't have grace with one another. Hey, let me be real, bro. Like, I believe I'm a gracious person, but in a very real way. Sometimes I'm not a gracious person.

[Jonathan Fields]

Just like all of us.

[Dante Stewart]

Yeah, exactly. So if we could just be honest, like, not all of us are gracious. And I think, you know, people struggle to be patient in our change or be courageous in being willing to change because we struggling to have this kind of communal aspect of grace. Communal morality means absolutely nothing without communal grace.

[Jonathan Fields]

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[Jonathan Fields]

So you write about in the book Shouting in the Fire. It really opens up with this metaphor of fire. And you're using fire as a metaphor for spiritual fervor, internalized pain, for grief and grace, and then rage and redemption. Take me into this.

[Dante Stewart]

Wow. I love the way you describe. Use those words to talk about my book, because the further I get away from it, and in some sense, the more I return to it. So there's a distance because it's been written so many years ago, and I still have conversations, like today about it, even as I'm working on other work. And it's just so interesting now to hear the words that are, you know, use when it comes to, like, people thinking about my book. And the word that you use, like, you know, I think you said something about grief and say it again one more time.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah, it was like. Like grief and grace.

[Dante Stewart]

Yeah, I love that. Grief and grace.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah. I mean, you could describe it in so many different ways, but it's just the metaphor of fire is really. It's. It's poignant. And I think people can kind of step. They can take that metaphor and make it feel right for whatever, like, it represents to them.

[Dante Stewart]

Yeah, yeah. Because in a very real way, the book is a journey. And this is me kind of talking about my own book as I'm a character in the story. You know, the book is very much following a young man who is simply trying to find his way in the world. A young black man that's from South Carolina who grows up and a. Grows up in very rural, poor America. And I didn't really address this in. In this particular book, the layers of, like, being from the black rural south when it comes to, like, economics and, you know, being from my small town of 2,000 people. But here's the story of a young man who's attempting to find himself, and he's fighting against the. All these kind of voices of what he should become or what he should do. And he listens to those voices, and he becomes a thing oftentimes that he doesn't want to become until those things doesn't work anymore. And he has to make the decision whether he's going to remain the same or whether he's going to be courageous enough or vulnerable enough. Because for me, before there is ever courage, there's vulnerability. And the only thing that protects vulnerability is courage. So there's a relationship between vulnerability and courage, to me, that I think is woven through the book in which, like, the fire is about the heat, the struggle of what it means to be young and black and American and Christian and Southern as it relates to going off to college or, you know, growing up in your own family life, going to white churches. That fire is about, you know, how hard it is and the challenges of, you know, the pain associated with fire and being burned. But it's also about an internal fire, this kind of internal spark, like a force, an energy or a voice or compulsion in which that tells the young man, like, this is who you are. This is what you must become. And as you are going through the fire outside of yourself, don't forget to spark that lies within. And if you can hear the voice in the flickering that lies within, you will always find what you supposed to be in this world. And I think people who read the book, I think once they leave the book, they will be given more of themselves. Because, you know, being young and black and American isn't the only conditions in which, like, we have to encounter fire or have to be reminded of our internal spark and flame. I think everybody in their lives at some point have to go through their own particular fires. And for me, I think the book is just, you know, a metaphor of, I've been through the fire. I've been burned by it. I've been changed by it. Now come along, let's go through it together.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting the way you tee up, just the notion of fire. Also, it's got these two qualities. You know, it's like it's the fire that, you know, it can either it can burn, but it can also forge. And sometimes it does both at the same time.

[Dante Stewart]

Oftentimes it does both.

[Jonathan Fields]

Right. And we're constantly trying to avoid it, but sometimes also we can't avoid it, you know, and it's like, there's so often, I feel like for so many of us, there's an other side we want to be on or we want to get to. And, like, we're trying to figure out, how do we get there without going through this? How do we get there? Like, there's a. I can see, like, there's a fire in front of me. On the other side, there's something I really want. There's a way I want to be. There's something way I want to live there, whatever it is. And it's like, how do I get around the fire to get to that thing? And end of the day, it really doesn't work. You kind of got to go through it.

[Dante Stewart]

Yeah. You know, I think the poet Robert Frost is so helpful here. You know, he says the only way out is through. And I believe that to be True. I think the only way to get through the fire is to go through the fire. I'm reminded I was sent. I sent my friend this poem the other day called I Worried by Mary Oliver. I'm actually doing my MFA in poetry now. And so I've been, you know, I've been kind of maturing as a writer, you know, not just, you know, minister, but like journalist, poet, essayist and minister. You know, really trying to deepen my craft and voice and grow myself and challenge myself. And I came across this poem by Mayor Oliver the other day I sent to my friend called I Worried. And upon this is Mary Oliver, you know, worrying about so much. Worrying about whether she was going to be able to make it, worrying about her health, worrying about this, worrying about that. And at the end, the last two stanzas of the poem is her picking herself up and going out and standing up and walking and moving. And I never forget sending that poem because it reminded me of an event that I did where someone asked me, you know, how do you metabolize suffering? And I think about, you know, any type of muscle or energy. The only way to get it going and to metabolize it is to move it. And I think so many people struggle. I'm preaching to myself right now in this season of my life, you know, because as much as we would like the fire of. Of yesterday to never become the fire of tomorrow, the fact is, like, there's. We're going to constantly encounter fires in life. And the fire that we passed through before should, like you said, for just to be ready to say, okay, I've been through this before so I can get through it again. And so I think that, like, the only way to get through the fires of life that all of us are going to have to go through, the only way to, you know, metabolize our suffering or our fear is to utilize that energy to move us forward, to complain about things, you know, worry. Allow yourself to worry. Because so. So often, you know, we dissociate so much, you know, with. And our anger and our sadness that when it's time to move, we struggle to move because we have not allowed ourselves to feel what we feel. So I think, yeah, the only way out, as Robert Frost says, is through.

[Jonathan Fields]

We were talking about metabolizing suffering and how a lot of people are trying to just figure out, how do I opt out of it entirely, basically. And the truth of the world is we don't. We're going to experience it a lot. And. But, like, what do you do with That, I think, is one of the big questions. You know, it's interesting, right, because part of what you write about also is this notion. And, you know, and you've written a bunch about how you've grown up. You're a kid in South Carolina, and that part of the message that you took in was that in some way, shape or form, like, part of your job was to shrink. It was like, if you want safety, you know, part of. Part of that comes with invisibility. And for you, that's something that sets a pattern in motion that becomes really fraught to live that way.

[Dante Stewart]

Oh, 100%. And what's so wild is, you know, I feel like I'm always wrestling with the ways in which I feel like I've had to shrink. I don't think we human beings ever get to a point. I think we do get to a point where like. Like Denise Levitov, now I become myself, the poet. I think we get to a point where we are becoming ourselves, but we always, in some sense, fighting against the version of us that felt like we had to shrink in order to be ourselves, you know, and you talk about religion, putting that, you know, you talking about, like, the shrinking version of you is the more moral version of you. The version of you that's more free, that's more expressive. You is the more immoral version of you. And so we're dealing not just with, you know, wrestling through, you know, processing who we're becoming, trying to, you know, generate language for our own journeys, but we're also dealing with, like, dislodging ourselves from patterns of internalized shame and internalized guilt that don't belong to us, you know, so it's like, I resonate so much with you thinking about shrinking because, like, I feel like I've. I've always kind of been on a journey, and we are always on a journey, especially. And I think if. If you're the type of person who has a temperament, like, you know, there's always more to grow toward or there's always more to learn. You know, I think that we're always going to, you know, deal with the struggle of, like, smallness and growth. And I feel like being a football player is a part of that, too, because it's, you know, I never forget, you know, like, what have you done for me lately? You know, yesterday really don't matter. You're always in competition against yourself and where you can grow, and you're always fighting against yourself. Sometimes that's healthy, sometimes it's not. Because sometimes there Will never be a point in which you come to the feeling that, like, I have arrived at who I'm supposed to be. There's always this new self. It's like you got a whole season to get better, and the way you start isn't the way you should end up, sadly, is that once you get into life in football, you got a beginning of the season and you have an end of season with life. You know, life is such a long thing. And so I think for so many of us who are used to shrinking, I think about myself. Yes. So much of what I write is about visibility, is about human beings, you know, not string. Because I believe that, like, I don't know, I'm just wild enough to believe that God, like, or life or our communities, truly want the best for us. And truly wanting the best for us means that we're becoming the version that we were always intended to be. You know, every day I wake up, have a picture that's in the restroom of our home, and that picture simply says, God smiles at the thought of you. And every day I look at that and I try and ingest it. I don't always believe it, you know, because, like, to become who you are and to stop shrinking means that, like, you know, you really got to deal with how people around you got used to a small version of you. And I think that so many people who go through that, we go through it and. And we. We believe that, like, some sense of rejection is going to take place if I become who I am. And I just believe that sometimes, man, we've created. And that may be true, but, like, it's the story we've learned to believe about ourselves. And as writers, our job is to challenge the story, to challenge the narrative, to challenge the metaphor, to challenge the narrative arc of our lives and our growth in hopes that we encounter things and are changed by it and given more of ourselves. So when I go to the page, my simple job is this. It's like, I want to attempt to be more of myself, and I want to attempt to give you more yourself. And if we can do that, then, like, that is our whole job as humans. That's love. Love is being able to be and give everything to ourselves that we believe we deserve.

[Jonathan Fields]

And that resonates really strongly. I guess my deeper curiosity, though, is this. Sometimes we shrink because we don't want to be rejected, because we don't want to be. You mentioned earlier, like, ostracized, kicked out, out. We want to belong in community and follow whatever the norms Are other times we shrink for very practical reasons, like safety. Like, you're a kid, you're growing up young black man in the south, right? Part of this for you isn't about being rejected. And this is some part of what you write about. It's about safety. It's like showing up in a particular way that's smaller than who you are because you want to be alive, you want to be safe.

[Dante Stewart]

Oh, yeah.

[Jonathan Fields]

That's a harder problem to solve in my mind. So when you say, yeah, it's like when you say be more visible and be who you are. And that is a huge amount of faith. If part of the reason you're shrinking is because of the perception that'll make you safer. And maybe the very real, the reality that it will make you safer to then go out and say, no, I'm going to be more visible. I'm going to be more of who I need to be and who I am. It's like you're challenging, not just rejection, you're stepping into a place of faith that somehow you're going to be okay, even showing up in that deeper, more real, authentic place. And this was your story. That's big. That's a big move.

[Dante Stewart]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nah, you know what's funny is, like, I'm such a person that, like, I don't like to talk about myself often, you know, in my own journey that, like, you. Right. It is big because when I think about it, man, to be young and black and American, like, you really do, like, gotta shrink and become invisible to survive this country. Especially playing football on the level that I did and that we did. I'll never forget, like, when Trayvon Martin was murdered. Like, I wasn't one of the ones who was like, you know, protesting or things like that. And we had a small group who did, but I wasn't one of the ones who did because I wanted to be safe. Like, I wanted, you know, I felt like I had too much at stakes and in order to put myself out there. And a lot of times, you know, it's easier to put out yourself out there when you got a lot to lose. It's much harder to put yourself out there when you got everything to lose. And oftentimes, being black in this country, you know, we got everything to lose. You know, this country gave us so little, and we made something of it. And what little we do have, this country is constantly attempting to try and take away. We think about right now, this in 2025, and we're still dealing with the Rolling back of rights we're still dealing with, with people trying to undo many of the freedoms that we so hard fought for. We still live in a country in which, like, books are being banned, funding is being cut. People don't care highly about, like, what's going on in rural America. No matter where you in Wisconsin, whether you're in South Carolina, where I'm from, people oftentimes aren't just like, not caring, but they're like, actively against. So to me, to show up in spite of that you write, is the ultimate expression of faith because there's the possibility of loss. And you believe, you begin to believe that even if I lose something, I don't lose everything. And everything I don't lose is who I am as a person. I never forget. So, like my granddad, I love my granddaddy, right? I carry his obituary wherever I go. I have some friends who, I'm Christian, but I have friends who practice hoodoo. And they be like, hey, bro, like, make a cup of coffee to your granddaddy, you know, and sip coffee with your granddaddy. I do, you know, and I'd be like, hey, hey, granddaddy. Like, I have conversations with gritty everything, you know. And so, like, like, for me, it's been generative and life giving. So one of the things about my granddaddy I love, you know, it's like he's a black man from South Carolina born in the 1930s in spite of, like, serving in this country. I'll Never forget when 1965, the Voting Rights act of 1965 happened. My granddaddy, born in South Carolina, born as a baby of the Great Depression, born in a time in which this country, you know, were just years removed from one of the bloodiest periods in American history for black people. 19, the early 1900s to about. To the 1920s, especially black Southern folk, you know, 1919 was, you know, they were like, lynching black people all over. And you talking about, like, he has proximity to these stories, and you talking about, like, being not far removed from Emmett Till. You're not even talking about, like, the stories, the smaller stories of the ways in which black people live in a constant grip of American terror all throughout the continental states in ways that are like, for every one headline, there's like 10, 15 acts of small violence that people don't report on. And people like my granddaddy in the small rural south, when the Voting Rights act came down in 1954, 1964, 65, after the Civil Rights act of 64, my granddad got up in his pickup truck. And you want to know what my granny did? My granny went around town, he picked up everybody and said that no matter what we in, in South Carolina, I'm going to pick up everybody so that they can have a right to be fully human and to vote and make their voice known. That is a radical risk. Why? Because you are in a moment in a state where people really don't just don't want you to exist. They don't want you to change anything. So for me, I think, like, yeah, it's showing up as your full self, no matter who you are, whether you're black, whether you're this, whether you're that. Like it is you, right? The ultimate form of faith. Because you can lose so much and yet you're not willing to lose yourself. And so for me, I'm preaching to myself right now, you know, because it's the older you get, I feel like the less brave you become. So it's like I hope that I become a person, that as I deepen my understanding of life, it also deepens my commitment to radical choices, you know, because stability, status quo would create a sustainable life. But like, risk, choice, imagination would create a full and whole life. And I don't just want a sustainable life. I want a life in which, like, we can take some risks to like, be everything we can be.

[Jonathan Fields]

I mean, I think so many of us want that also, you know, but it's just, you know, fear stops you. And we all have different fears and we all, like, come from different places and different histories where, like, the fears can be radically different. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Grid Light Project is sponsored by Earth Breeze. So you know what's been on my mind lately? All those unnecessary chemicals and everyday products. When I started looking into what was actually in my laundry Detective detergent, I was pretty surprised. Many popular detergents contain harsh chemicals that stick to clothes and can irritate your skin. And the wild part, some of these chemicals, like optical brighteners, they aren't even cleaning your clothes. They're just creating an illusion of brighter whites. And that is why I am really glad that I found Earth Breeze. So their detergent sheets are free from optical brighteners, dyes, parabens, phosphates and preservatives. Plus they're hypoallergenic and non irritating. So instead of bulky plastic jugs, you get lightweight sheets that dissolve completely in the wash and your clothes come out clean and fresh without harsh chemical residue. Want to try a powerful clean without unnecessary toxins, visit earthbreeze.com GLP for 40% off +4 free gifts. That's earthbreeze.com GLp for 40% off/4 free gifts.

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[Jonathan Fields]

It's interesting. Your story is sort of like this and I know you don't love talking about yourself, but I'm going to talk about it. Oh, it's fine.

[Dante Stewart]

It's fine.

[Jonathan Fields]

It's cool because it's a really powerful example in a lot of ways. You've talked a number of times about playing football and establishing yourself and establishing a name for that and then sort of moving out into the world and moving into the world. Faith. But the world of faith you first moved into was a world of faith that didn't fit you.

[Dante Stewart]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Fields]

And you did everything. You basically were like, let me figure this out. I want to be a part of this. I want to be in community. Like, I want to try and make it so. These are my people. You hit a moment where you're like, it's not working. Like this whole, the community, the approach, the. It's just not working. And rather than again getting to this moment and saying, you know what, I'm gonna shrink again and because I want to fit in again, you said, no, I can't do this, you know, and really started. And it meant walking away from a community, a sense of belonging, a set of beliefs that had been kind of like wrapped around you for a window of time, a season of your life and really going out. And I'm gonna make this analogy and maybe uncomfortable for you. You described the story of Jesus earlier in a conversation about how he looked at his parents and said, no, I gotta go, like, explore and figure out what's right for me. And it's kind of like you had your own version of that.

[Dante Stewart]

Oh, it's not uncomfortable for me at all. Yeah, that's. That's true.

[Jonathan Fields]

But it's not untrue. It's. I'm. I'm not saying. I'm not comparing you to him and.

[Dante Stewart]

Saying, oh, no, no. But, like, saying no and saying, let me figure out what works. I think that's very true about my story. It's like, I feel like I've always been this type of person, though for me, it's like, I don't know what it is. I feel like I've never been a person that's so tied to something ultimately to where I can't walk away. I think, and this is partly because of the people around me, is I love people. My friend said the other day, bro, you just love people. And because I do love people, like, I pay attention to their stories. And I'm like, once you get to know people beyond your own kind of community and environment, then, like, you get to believe that there's more possible for you than you're settling for right now. You know, a lot of times we grow up or we come into environments in which, like, we believe this is the only thing for us. And then the story we receive about ourselves is that there are no other alternatives and options. There's nothing more for me here. And I just think that, like, that may be cool for some people to live that way, to be like, all right, cool. I'm good with where I'm at. And for me, I'm like that too. I'm good where I'm at until it don't work. And when it don't work, work. I'm at least willing, you know, to challenge, like, why it doesn't work, why it doesn't work for me. And to be like, all right, at some point, I'm just gonna be like, I'm gonna bounce, and I'm gonna bounce out. And I'm just be like, okay, I'm gonna figure out what does work. And, like, I think it's all dependent on, like, having people around you who can become a safe place to land when you gotta jump. I was talking to my friend the other day, and she was using this narrative, this story of, like, a young man at a swimming pool. Imagine myself being a young man at a swimming pool. And I had jumped in the pool before. I had swim before, but Time had kind of done his work on me. And I wasn't in the pool. And, like, here she is trying to get me to believe that I can swim again. But then I'm at the edge of the pool, I'm saying, oh, I can't swim. I can't do it. I can't swim, swim. And here are all these people who are in the pool who had seen me swim, who had jumped with me before, who had seen me, you know, do beautiful breaststrokes and seen me freestyle, and they seen me even dip my foot into the water, and they saw the process of me jumping in one season. But then time had gone at work, and I settled and fears came in. And she's like, yo, do realize this? Is that, like, you're afraid right now to jump again because you believe that this time is going to be the time to ruin you without realizing that you've jumped and swim so many times before. And all you got to do is trust that the people in the water will catch you and guide you where you need to go. And I think for me, I think for so many people, we get to the point where it's like, we forget that we have swam before and we've made it through and we didn't drown and it didn't destroy us. Big changes, big leaps, big bounds. It took something from us. It took a lot of courage. It took a lot of faith to do it. But there's people in the water who's like, hey, come on, dip your foot in. Jump. It's okay. And I think for me, I've never really been a person to be like, all right, I can't jump. I can't lift sleep, you know? And I think for so many people, it's not that, like, we get complacent or we settle. Is that, like, the muscle, the faith muscle atrophies, the bravery muscle atrophies because oftentimes communities can, in some sense, make that bravery muscle atrophy. And when we so used to being somewhere that's just like. That doesn't really challenge us or, like, doesn't really, you know, maybe we people who like, all right, well, I done mastered this. It's time for me to bounce. I didn't master this part of my journey. It's time for me to go. And oftentimes we think that, like, okay, you're supposed to be somewhere forever, when in actuality, maybe it's just for a season, and it's time for you to jump again because somebody else needs your bravery. So on another level in this story, the more you jump the more people that believe they can jump as well. And so it's like, if we lose that, we lose our sense of self. And maybe we are the ones who are to jump and not the ones that's supposed to stay on the sidelines.

[Jonathan Fields]

I have to ask you now, when your friend was sort of like, sharing this story with you and saying, like, okay, so here's what's going on. Was she talking to you about something that you're grappling with right now, a jump that you're thinking about?

[Dante Stewart]

Yeah, she was. In this moment.

[Jonathan Fields]

Are you open to sharing?

[Dante Stewart]

Nah, not really. I can't share that.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah, no, no, down the road. Down the road.

[Dante Stewart]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's like. Because for me, in this present moment, I mean, I think. I think a lot of the junk is about, like, dante, what do you want in life? And, you know, are you willing to, like, allow yourself the vulnerability of saying what you want without the fear of, like, being considered a bad person? Without the fear of, like, oh, they're not going to like me if I do this. Or, well, you know, it just doesn't. Things don't work anymore or they don't work the way they should work, or maybe, you know, you want things to look different. And I think that, like, as I'm grappling with my own life, it's so funny that this podcast is happening at this very moment where I'm going through one of the hardest times of my life. And it's taken a lot of bravery to show up for work, to show up for myself, to show up for my family, to show up for, you know, my dreams and my goals and my desires. I think it's so funny that I'm going back to, like, shouting in the fire because I felt like I was so brave when I was writing that book. And I feel so scared in life right now. And she was dragging me a little bit in a way to tell me, dante, you've already jumped before. It's okay to not know all the answers, to not know all the moves, to not know whether you, you know, gonna swim or drown. But she's like, ag, it's only three feet, my boy. You're five foot. You're five foot nine, five foot ten. You act like life is asking you to jump into 10 foot water. Nah, bro, bro, you jumped before and it's okay to jump again. You know, I'm much different as a human. I think different. I talk different. I want different things than, like, you know, when I was younger and I think trusting the process of my evolution and my growth as a human being in this present moment is like those. The big leaps of life to trust the process of my life and unfolding. And she was like, in this present moment, you know what you feel you must do? You're just afraid of the consequences, but trust yourself. You got it.

[Jonathan Fields]

The end of that book that we've been referencing is a declaration of becoming. And there's one line where you say, I became who I was always meant to be. It feels like you're dipping back into that as we speak.

[Dante Stewart]

Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking even, like, right now as a writer, you know. You know, as a writer, I'm going through this right now where, you know, when I think about, like, writing Shot in the Fire, you know, it's a very different moment. It's in 2020, you know, 2021, and it's just a very different moment for Americans. And as a young writer, you kind of speak in your mind or whatever you feel, you know, and things like that, and it's good. It's right. But then, like, right now, I'm like. I'm trying to. To be a storyteller in a way that, like, is more robust. I like different type of writing now. I like more, like, immersive journalism and poetry and essays and things like that. And, like, I want to explore humans outside of myself, which is much different. Like, I'm working on my second book right now, and it's. I'll be done in about a month and a half with it. This book is the kind of next step in my journey as a writer and a human, you know, where so much of the same themes of Shouting in the Fire has been explored in this book. But I'm stepping back and saying, let me travel to Uvalde. Let me travel to Vietnam. Let me travel to Charleston, South Carolina. Let me travel to these different places, New Mexico. Let me travel, you know, to these different. To New York and begin to explore, like, heartbreak and what heartbreak does to us and what we do with it and figure out how we can use our heartbreak as a force for creative good, you know, and, of course, Shouting in the Fire is that you see that woven and Shouting in the Fire, where, you know, heartbreak and anger and grief is used for good and as a creative force. But, like, right now, and it's like, for me, you know, I'm just a different human than I was. And that takes a lot of bravery because, like, people get used to, you know, you being a certain type of way or, like, you know, my work on social media, it's like, sometimes you get tired as a writer, and sometimes you're like, well, I don't want to talk about Donald Trump today, bro. I want to go watch some films and talk about Ryan Coogler or Alfred Hitchcock. You know, I want to go read some poems and let's talk about poems and things like that. Let's talk about basketball. You know, let me talk about sports and. And of course, those other things gonna be layered in there. But it's like, you know, life is so interesting. And I think, like, I'm such a curious human being that, like, my desires and interests change, you know, ever so often. And it takes a lot of bravery to accept that, like, okay, the person I was writing book one will be different than the person that I am writing book two. But like Ryan Coogler said the other day in an interview, he says, every movie I made, it was the best movie that I can make at that moment. And, like, hey, this is the best I got to offer right now. And back then, that was the best I got to offer then. And then in another year when I'm working on my young adult novel, that'd be the best thing that I can offer right then. And every version of the self matters. And I think a lot of times we think that, like, okay, our journeys to becoming ourselves only matter when we become the thing we always wanted. And that's just not the case. The journey matters every day we wake up and decide we're going to take it.

[Jonathan Fields]

Yeah. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So I always wrap with the same question here, and that is in this container of Good Life project. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up for me?

[Dante Stewart]

To live a good life is to be okay with, like, that life is life. And that every day, you know, life presents a new opportunity to be more of who you are. And the good life is a life in which you can look at everything you became and look at everything you came from and realize it meant something and then account for something. And that the only thing the world demands of you is for you to just try and be yourself as much as you can every day. That's the good life. That's the life that counts. It don't matter how much money you make, no matter how many books you write, how many mistakes you make, how much failure you have, how much fear you possess. If you wake up in the morning and you begin to ask yourself what can I do today to give me life? That's the good life. To be able to ask that question, to make small stuff to like live it.

[Jonathan Fields]

Thank you.

[Dante Stewart]

Yeah, thank you man.

[Jonathan Fields]

If you love this episode, you'll also love the conversation we had with Rabbi Steve Leiter about how to live what really matters. You can find a link to that episode in the show. Notes this episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me. Jonathan Fields, editing, helped by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Christopher Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still listening here. Do me a personal favor. A seven second favor. Share it with just one person. I mean, if you want to share it with more, that's awesome too. But just one person? Even then, invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered, to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter. Because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project.

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[Dante Stewart]

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[Dante Stewart]

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