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The Truth About Headaches: Surprising Science & Groundbreaking Treatments | Tom Zeller Jr.
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- [00:01]
Jonathan Fields
So headaches can literally derail your life. And sadly, I'm speaking from personal experience. They have been a part of my life since I was a teen, at times making it hard to function. And I'm not alone. For billions of people worldwide, headaches aren't just an inconvenience. They're an invisible force that can completely derail you without warning. What's fascinating is that until 2018, we didn't actually have a single medication specifically designed to prevent them. I mean, how is that even possible? Turns out there's a lot that we don't know and a lot of things that we are learning. So what if everything you thought you knew about headaches was wrong? Even that's where we're headed today. My guest, Tom Zeller Jr. Is a former New York Times journalist, current editor in chief of the digital science magazine Undark, and the author of the the Science of a Most Confounding Affliction and A Search for Relief. And Tom brings both personal experience and investigative rigor to this exploration of headaches. The weaving together cutting edge neuroscience, cultural history, and his own journey with cluster headaches, which are considered among the most intensely painful conditions human can experience. And what we uncover in this conversation, it might surprise you. From the complete absence of specifically designed preventative medications until just a few years ago to the profound gender bias that has shaped treatment throughout history, we explore emerging frontiers in treatment, from AI powered early warning systems to devices to pharma to psychedelic therapies and and examine why the simple word headache may actually be holding back both research and understanding. So whether you experience headaches yourself or know someone who does, this conversation offers vital insights into an often invisible condition that impacts relationships, careers and lives in ways most people never see. And what emerges is not just a deeper understanding of headache, but a window into really how we think about, treat, and talk about invisible pain. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project.
- [02:06]
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- [02:32]
Tom Zeller Jr.
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- [02:36]
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- [03:39]
Jonathan Fields
I think a good starting point for this conversation, sort of like the exploration of headaches, is you, you've got a new book, literally called the Headache. And this wasn't just an interesting journalistic exploration for you. This is deeply personal. So take me into that.
- [03:55]
Tom Zeller Jr.
So, I mean, as anyone who reads the book will quickly find out, I myself have what's called cluster headache. It's less familiar, I think, to most people than say, a classic migraine, which is probably the most familiar of all the primary headaches. But that was sort of the starting point for me. I started to develop these headaches in my 20s and cluster headaches are pretty painful. I try to avoid getting into comparative measures, but cluster headaches are considered one of the most painful syndromes that a human being can experience. So it would be foolish of me to try to explain the dialectic of my life without including the mark that these headaches have had on me. I never set out to, at least not in the first 30 years of my journalistic career, set out to tell that story. It was something that I always kind of kept very private. People around me knew that I had these headaches and necessarily some of my employers knew, although I took a lot of steps to sort of hide that behind a curtain as well, even from them. But when I finally decided to look into this as a book project, and we can talk about why that might have been too, but I started to realize that all of those characteristics, not just the pain, but the hiding, the sort of slight sense of shame or self blame, the inability to really have serious conversations with people about it, the misunderstanding, even within the medical community, attempts to hide it from employers, all of these things were really, really common Among a lot of the people that I talked to, that was what pulled me onto this path, if you will.
- [05:36]
Jonathan Fields
One of my curiosities also. And I wanted to dive a lot more into the world of headache, but also before we even get there. And you alluded to this, you have a long career as a journalist and a science writer, right? And part of the ethos of journalism is you're not the subject in the story. And there is a tradition of experiential journalism where I'm going to put myself into this mix and like Michael Pollan, and I'm going to report from the front lines of my own personal experience. I think that's still pretty much the outlier in that world, where it's like, okay, I'm going to go out and talk to all the people, interview all the experts, find out what, and I'm going to report from the front lines of what's happening to others, what I'm learning from others. So you making a decision to say, well, I'm actually going to lead this and actually bring myself into this conversation. I'm curious for you, just as a journalist, how that was for you.
- [06:27]
Tom Zeller Jr.
It was terrible. It was absolutely terrible. It was terrifying. I resisted it in the beginning, kicking and screaming as I discussed it with my original editor. And, yeah, everything that you say describes exactly how I felt as a journalist. I write about other people. I tried to take myself out of the story, especially a certain sort of journalism. I mean, you mentioned that there are exceptions, but I spent the majority of my journalistic career at the New York Times, where the voice from Nowhere is sort of the default posture of storytelling at the New York Times. And you can debate whether or not that's a good posture or a bad posture, but it's the posture I learned. So when my editor told me, well, we really need you to be a character in this book. I mean, obviously I'm writing it because I have headaches, but I thought maybe that would be a paragraph in the book, and then the rest of it I could spend my time. But he seemed really convinced that it couldn't be that. That I would only gain authority and also gain the trust of an audience for this book if I was willing to unveil myself, too and put myself into the story. So it was a struggle, and I had to learn how to do it and how to do it honestly, because your temptation is to still kind of shade and duck and weave, even from yourself. So it was really hard. I'm glad you asked that because it's something that I think most readers probably wouldn't talk into. But if you're a journalist and spend any amount of time doing it, it's absolutely terrifying to write about yourself.
- [08:00]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. And I totally. I'm not a journalist. I've written a number of books and the very first book I wrote, I didn't put myself in the story at all. And my editor came back to me and she's like, nah. She's like, especially first book out. People want to know who you are. They want to have a sense for who you are and why they should care about what you're doing and what you have to say and like what you're bringing to them. And I was deeply uncomfortable with that as well, just because I don't like that level of immersion of my own story. It's changed over the years, but it's an uncomfortable thing. I think no matter what. For most people it's really fairly uncomfortable.
- [08:36]
Tom Zeller Jr.
Do you think you're more comfortable with it now?
- [08:38]
Jonathan Fields
I am. And I think that's just literally it's 15 years of exposure therapy at this point.
- [08:43]
Tom Zeller Jr.
Yeah. I don't have enough yet. I've told people that my next book is going to be anything but about me if I can help it.
- [08:51]
Jonathan Fields
I've told friends on occasion, I said my ultimate aspiration is for me to become invisible and let the work, to always take the lead. But it's a very hard thing to do, especially in the age that we're living in.
- [09:03]
Tom Zeller Jr.
Yeah. And I think book writing and book reading is such a different animal in some ways. And I'm an avid reader, but I'd never really attempted a book before. And I think I learned that there's a different transaction happening than in other kinds of writing. It's very intimate. It's the longest of forms. You're going on this journey together. And so in the same way that you might expect your seatmate on a cross country drive to open up to you. Yeah. You expect the driver to open up to you on that long ride.
- [09:34]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. And it's sort of like you have to answer the question out of the gate. Why should I trust you enough to give you six or eight or ten hours of my time in a world where it seems like I just don't have enough anyway?
- [09:45]
Tom Zeller Jr.
Yeah.
- [09:47]
Jonathan Fields
So let's drop into the world of headache again. So as you described, you have had cluster headaches since your 20s. Headache is an interesting term. It's this big catch all. It's a giant bucket. And into that bucket people have maybe heard clusters I'm sure a lot of people have heard migraine tension headaches. How do we distinguish between the types of headaches these days?
- [10:11]
Tom Zeller Jr.
That's sort of a double edged question in a way, because how do we distinguish between the headaches medically is a very different question from how do we distinguish between headaches culturally? And I think that that matters in some ways. And in a lot of ways the culture has influenced medicine too. And I get into some of that in the book. So I mean, the quick headline description of medical headaches are that there are headaches that are symptoms of some other malady. So you might develop a headache as a byproduct of say a COVID infection or being dehydrated, having too much to drink the night before. We can discern what the cause of those headaches are. And then there are primary headaches is just what they're called in the medical literature. And these are headaches that are idiopathic. They are diseases unto themselves without any known cause. So migraine is probably the most familiar one you named tension headache. Tension headache is probably the most common one, but they tend to be less severe and can often be treated. I don't want to diminish anyone's experience with these, but they can often be treated with over the counter medications or some lifestyle changes, not always. And they can be ruinous in their own way, but they're the most common. Then migraine, I mean, I learned just staggering numbers of people, primarily women, have migraines, something like 50 million just in the US alone. And then cluster headaches is the third of the major primary headaches. And then there are several others that are less familiar. Thunderclap headaches. There's even orgasm headaches, which are spontaneous headaches that come on at the point of orgasm. That's how it's sort of parsed up medically in the culture. It's a much more interesting question because we use this word headache metaphorically for all kinds of things, for an annoyance, for things that are just driving us nuts, things that we don't want to do. And we all use that term and we all recognize it. I've even seen uses of the term migraine as a synonym in that very sense, not as a medical headache, but as boy, these taxes are a real migraine. And I think the fact that we traffic in those terms that way has made it harder for people with the medically parsed version of the disorder to really gain any sort of attention, whether it's financially from the National Institutes of Health or from an employer who might think that you're sort of, I don't want to say faking it, but we've all had headaches. We all know what headaches are. And it becomes very hard to convince someone, or at least that's the feeling that I think that people with headaches take in. Maybe it's not fair to. It's something that we internalize, but there's a sense that everyone's had a headache and if it's bringing you down, then you're the weak one. I have headaches too, and it doesn't bring me down. So what's wrong with you? There's sort of that implied judgment. Is it fair? I don't know. You tell me you've had headaches.
- [13:11]
Jonathan Fields
I think it's really interesting because earlier in our conversation you said, I'm not going to compare my cluster headaches to somebody else. I can't tell you what my relative level of pain is compared to somebody else, either with their type of headache or whatever it is they may be going through. And I sense that that's one of the really big challenges with people who suffer headaches is that you've got two people both told that the pain that they're experiencing. Here's a checklist. Okay. That qualifies as a migraine. One person's, all right, I can kind of work through it. It sucks, but I'll deal with it. Another person is leveled with it, can't get out of bed, can't be around sound, can't be around light. And maybe it takes three days to wash out of their system. And yet you have here two people side by side saying, like, you've got migraines. So yeah, you can see how there might be a tendency for somebody, depending on their social conditioning overlaid with that also to kind of say the other one, like, come on, buck up. Or somebody who has regular tension headaches, you know, like, come on, seriously, Look, I have these all the time. You got to deal with it. And there's this whole social and judgmental overlay that happens that I think, and you write about this, that makes the actual pure headache related pain potentially compounds it.
- [14:25]
Tom Zeller Jr.
Yes. And I think that there are a few things at work there we can probably, if we take the population in aggregate, you can always be assured that some small percentage of them will be classic malingerers or they might be hypochondriacs or, you know, and that's. I even state this in the book. I think that's okay. I mean, whatever field distortion has you showing up at the doorstep of a doc seeking help, deserves empathy and deserves attention. But we can step back from that and honestly assume that some percentage of people just have something else going on and the pain is just their way of addressing it. But it beggars belief to think that someone who is retreating to the bedroom, missing their daughter's wedding, missing functions at work, almost transforming from a person who's just really engaged, social, extroverted, and then retreating into a dark room for days at a time. It beggars belief that any large percentage of them are not in anything but terrible pain. And yet. And yet it's because of that word headache and because of the dynamics that you're describing, that residue, I think, tends to sort of be there either overtly or not. I mean, I've struggled even with the book to decide how much of this am I just kind of internalizing from the wider culture and then imposing on myself versus how much is really sort of being directly projected at me by people in my life? I think far fewer in the latter case. But you feel it anyway. I mean, I'd be curious to know if you ever. I mean, I would guess that with your headache, what kind of headaches do you have?
- [16:04]
Jonathan Fields
I have migraines, I have tension headaches, I have ocular headaches. So I have a nice little collection of fun things that kind of have a rotation with me.
- [16:12]
Tom Zeller Jr.
Do you get the neurological accompanying symptoms with your migraines? Like the aura?
- [16:16]
Jonathan Fields
Very rarely. And the only reason I would even know how to answer that question is because literally decades ago, one time I got the classic the aura, the spotty vision, and I didn't have a headache. But somebody who was familiar with migraine asked me way back then, they're like, do you have a headache? And I was like, no. And they're like, you may want to go home now. And sure enough, 20 minutes later, I was flat out for the next 24 hours.
- [16:42]
Tom Zeller Jr.
Yeah. And flat out because, I mean, the pain was one. The major symptom, the salience symptom for you was just. Yeah, yeah. Was that something that you wanted to talk about readily with people? No, no, no.
- [16:55]
Jonathan Fields
And this is one of the things you write about, right? Also, is this like. And not too long ago, we did a whole episode on sort of like invisible pain, especially chronic invisible pain. When other people can't see it, it's really hard for you to know. There's this tendency to hide it because you feel like you're going to be judged for it. You won't be believed. And then other people kind of look at you like. I don't know, you look okay.
- [17:17]
Tom Zeller Jr.
Yeah. You seem fine. I mean, there is so much bound up in the credibility of a wound. Right. If I can show you this thing that's causing me the pain, then I suddenly gain a coin of credibility that I. That people with headache and other kinds of invisible pain. And I mentioned some of them in the book too. Yeah. Just can never get. Their pockets are always empty on that front. And so I think that that's why we, you know, there's a certain shame factor in, I think, attending headaches. I think some of it has to do with. We would be remiss if we didn't mention that most migraineurs are women. Like, I think by three to one, not all. I mean, men obviously get migraines too, but it's almost certainly a hormonal component happening there. And when we can't figure out historically in medicine, when we can't figure out what's ailing a woman, it's because she's hysterical. That's what we've tended to sort of describe it as. And that is sort of. That blended out, I think, through the culture over the last 200 years to define headache writ large. If you seem fine. So it must all be in your head.
- [18:25]
Jonathan Fields
There is this really interesting gender overlay there. If over the last couple hundred years, women experience this on a three to one basis, meaning they're the ones who are most likely to seek help for it, I would imagine, or at least in the beginning. And then because there's nothing observable, there is this gender bias and there's these sort of like the classic labeling of. It's gaslighting, medical gaslighting, saying.
- [18:47]
Tom Zeller Jr.
Well, exactly.
- [18:49]
Jonathan Fields
Then you sort of expand that out into the culture and then there's association. Well, pretty much. Maybe most people who have this thing going on, then, you know, it's just. There's other stuff in their life. They're making it up. Whatever's going on, like it's not a real thing.
- [19:04]
Tom Zeller Jr.
Yeah, yeah, it's not a real thing. Or, you know, the classic, you just need to relax. You're too high strung. I mean, there was. There's a whole rich tradition of comical but terrible literature from the mid 20th century depicting women with migraine as being frigid. If they would just have sex with their husbands more, their headaches would go away. I mean, and this was. This was literally advice being dispensed by physicians in popular magazines and newspapers and interestingly even at the time. And there are some really good books that cover this in greater depth than mine. Joanna Kempner is one author that anyone interested should look that up. I think her first book is called Not Tonight. And she gets into this pretty deeply. But men during the same period who have migraines or complained of migraines or were diagnosed with migraines were described with a whole other typology. They were too success driven, they were too ambitious, and they were too intelligent. But women were described with the same condition as being too frigid and too stressed. So, I mean, the sort of gender biases are obvious, and we've obviously grown beyond that, but there's still a residue. There are anecdotes in the book where I spoke to women who still experience some semblance of this in the privacy of their doctor's offices today in 2025.
- [20:30]
Jonathan Fields
There's an impact there. Like if you show up and you're in pain, then somebody tells you it's not real, then you're also showing up with your history, with your psychology, with your patterning, your conditioning, your traumas. And you may then bring to that pronouncement, okay, this is a person of authority. It must be right.
- [20:52]
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- [20:52]
Jonathan Fields
And then whatever wounding you're bringing to that and the shame and the blame, saying, well, maybe this is my fault, maybe then you take the actual physiological pain and you compound it with just psychological heaviness that creates this really awful spiral.
- [21:07]
Tom Zeller Jr.
Yeah, a terrible spiral. And it also complicates the way that we talk about things that do, I mean, actually have probably some role to play in migraines and maybe cluster headache, too, which is that these are very sort of chemically driven mechanisms in a way that is still somewhat invisible to us. We're still trying to figure it out. But almost certainly, you know, a neurobiological disorder, a breakdown of a sensory system that can be exacerbated by stress, for example, but it makes it harder to talk about that stress as a hormonal event, a release of cortisol or release of other hormones that can interact with certain receptors and exacerbate pain. It's not a clean linear connection, but it certainly plays a role. But if you're telling me that I suffer from this disease because I'm a stress case, you make it really hard to have sophisticated conversations about hormone wash and the tides of our, our blood system in a meaningful way that isn't sort of dripping with bias and judgment and simplicity.
- [22:15]
Jonathan Fields
And we'll be right back after a Word from our Sponsors Good Life Project is sponsored by Airbnb. So recently my wife Stephanie stayed at an Airbnb in Abington, Virginia, and it was exactly what you'd want in a peaceful getaway. The condo was cozy, beautifully designed and tucked away with a private koi pond and garden, and she just loved relaxing in the sunroom and soaking in the mountain views, while the close proximity to local spots like Barter Theater made it just an ideal spot to unwind and explore. And what's fascinating about places like this is that many of us have spaces that could become someone else's perfect getaway. While we're off traveling, our empty homes could be working for us. So whether you have a spare room or a whole house, hosting your home on Airbnb while you're away could turn your empty space into extra income. It's flexible. You choose when to host and it's easier than you might think. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com host Good Life Project is sponsored by Life Kit from NPR. So you know those moments when life feels kind of like a puzzle with missing pie. So I was recently listening to Life Kit's episode about mindful spending decisions and it changed how I think about those should I buy it moments. Instead of feeling guilty about wanting things, it actually showed me how to pause and ask myself just simple questions that cut through the impulse buying fog. What I love about Life Kit is how they tackle real everyday challenges. They don't shame you for wanting things or tell you to never treat yourself. Instead, they offer practical frameworks for making choices you won't regret later. And their guide for mindful purchasing helped me create a simple mental checklist that saved me from probably quite a few regrettable cart checkouts. These aren't just service level tips. Each episode combines expert insights with actionable steps that work in real life. So whether it's managing finances or navigating relationships, they meet you where you are with practical wisdom. Listen now to the Life Kit podcast from npr. Good Life Project is sponsored by Prolon. So as we head into summer, so many of us are looking for a way to feel welcome, lighter, more energized and just radiant from within. I have been exploring fasting and making it a part of my life for years now, and when I first discovered Prolon, it felt like finding that missing puzzle piece I didn't even know I needed. Their brilliant plant based nutrition program lets you eat while keeping your body in a fasting state with nourishing soups, snacks and beverages and their five day cycle works at a cellular level, really helping reset your metabolism and shed fat while protecting lean muscle. I have done their program several times now and their new next gen features 100% organ organic soups and teas that are simply delicious for a limited time. You can be first in line to experience the new next gen at special savings. Prolon is offering Good life project listeners 15% off site wide plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their five day nutrition program. Just visit prolonlife.com goodlife that's P-R-O-L-O-N-L-I-F E.com goodlife to claim your 15% discount and your bonus gift. Prolonglife.com goodlife or just click the link in the show notes I mean, let's dive into a little bit then, what we do know about where headaches come from. And this is something that you deepen into. I remember very early in my experience being told, well, this is a blood pressure issue and that's how it's going to be treated. And there seem to be evolving theories about what is actually at the root of pain in your head.
- [25:53]
Tom Zeller Jr.
I mean, I have to tell you, I started out in some way driven by the fact that this surely must be knowable. This surely must be something that, you know, a headache. In some ways, we know more about the common cold than we know about headaches. So I started out probably a bit naively thinking, well, if I just talk to the right neuroscientists, they will lead me down the molecular pathway that leads to pain. And surely, I think even most of us who have never investigated this, if asked, would probably say, well, blood vessels in my head are throbbing, they're bumping up, they're mashing up against a nerve ending somehow, and that's generating pain. I think probably a lot of us would think if we were asked to describe what is going on in a headache, we would say that. And for hundreds of years that was sort of the prevailing theory. I mean, there were other flavors and other explanations that involve the humors, but there was a general sense that the flow of blood into the brain had some major role to play. We don't know in 2025 that's necessarily true. And one of the most entertaining things for me as a signage journalist was to talk to experts from different camps on this question because they vigorously disagree with each other on the role that the blood vessels play at all in headache. So if I were to give my Best guess of what a typical neurologist would say that isn't necessarily caught up on the latest literature. They would say, well, it's probably an activation of the blood vessels in the meninges, which is the only enervated part of the brain. It's the layer between the skull and the gray matter itself. It's the only thing that could experience pain. They would say, so it must be something to do with the blood vessels and the nerves in that layer of the brain. And probably, if they know a little bit more, they would say the trigeminal nerve, which is the nerve that provides sensation to your face and parts of the sides of your head, is mixed up in this business somehow. There'd be some disagreement over whether or not that's the trigger, if that's where it starts. But certainly we know that certain molecules are released from the trigeminal nerve neurotransmitters during a headache event. So we certainly know that it's involved. And that has led to some interesting therapies, which I'm sure we'll talk about. And they would probably say, if they knew even a little bit more, that the hypothalamus is probably a central player in this. Although we couldn't say exactly how is it the prime mover? Does something go wrong in the hypothalamus and then set everything off and then trigger that inflammation in the meninges? We don't know for sure. And then I would say, if they were really at the cutting edge and maybe even playing at the fringe of headache science, they would say, everybody's wrong. There have been plenty of studies that show that the blood vessels are not activated at all in some people experiencing a migraine attack or a cluster attack. There have been studies. There was a classical study of a cluster headache patient for whom it's just almost axiomatic that the trigeminal nerve is a central player in this, who had that nerve severed at the point during a surgical severing to relieve his pain. And he still had cluster headaches. So if a scientist was really at the edge of things, they would say, we really absolutely don't know. We know all these structures are involved. We know there's chemistry involved, but we don't know why. And we don't know why it persists in the human animal almost uniquely, probably in the animal kingdom. I mean, we don't really have good evidence that other animals sort of fall over and hold their heads very often. Maybe we're just not seeing it, but probably unique to the human animal and something that probably should have evolved out of the human animal by now. So there's a lot of discussion and interest in why this thing also persists. So that's probably a long winded, mechanistic sort of description. The best I could do.
- [30:06]
Jonathan Fields
But it's really interesting, right, because you're describing a scenario where this is something that affects a huge percentage of the population. It has affected the huge percent of the population for generations and yet we're still largely at a loss to understand the source. Where is this actually coming from? And the theory is that became prevailing. Theories are now really kind of like on the way out. And there's all this, as you described, there's all this research. This is. But we literally can look into somebody's head in the middle of a pain bout and see that this is not happening. It can't really be the thing.
- [30:45]
Tom Zeller Jr.
Yes, and I think that that's what's really confounding. I mean, on some level you have to allow that the brain is an incredibly complex organ, the most complex and really, really hard to study while subjects are still using them. You know, in some ways it makes some sense. But I do think that a lot of the sort of presumption and paradigm stasis and bias in earlier eras contributed to our ignorance. Now one thing that we probably should mention is that it's not just the culture or it's just not ordinary people carrying around these judgments about headache. One byproduct, I think, of the weird bias that migraine brings with it is that even among neurologists and neuroscientists, it's kind of considered not a sexy thing to study and they're kind of embarrassed by it. I talked to researchers who were deeply interested in studying headaches, but were told by colleagues, yeah, you don't want to do that. It's not, it's not a big problem. Headache patients are a pain to deal with. You don't want to mess with that. And they're discouraged. They're discouraged from going into it. And I think that too is residue of a sort of bias that we carry as a culture and also why we remain as ignorant as we are.
- [32:07]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, it's like if your primary researchers are discovered from really allocating time, money and energy to slows the whole process of understanding what's really going on and then in turn the entire process of either treatment and or cure at some point.
- [32:23]
Tom Zeller Jr.
Yeah, it seems really reasonable if you've got a population in the tens of millions, probably a billion worldwide. The amount of economic drain that these conditions represent is just staggering. It's almost laughable when you start to dig into the numbers and realize just how much missed work, how much missed consumerism, how much missed life there is because of these absolutely debilitating conditions. And they are debilitating. I mean, it sounds like an overstatement, and I was sort of hesitant when I first started writing the book to talk about it in those terms, but I think even the World Health Organization considers someone in the throes of a migraine to be as disabled as a quadriplegic. I mean, they actually use those terms, which I recoiled from that analogy at first because it seems absurd and it seems to be stealing something from. It's just a headache. We can't compare a headache to quadriplegia. Right. But if you break it down, I mean, in the throes when you were laid out with that migraine that you had that was just so painful, you couldn't do anything, could you? I mean, you were functionally disabled during that period.
- [33:35]
Jonathan Fields
I wouldn't personally make the analogy to say that, okay, so I had the equivalent functionality of somebody who was experiencing quadriplegia. But has it been profoundly disabling? For short moments of time in my life, yes. And I'm probably not at the extreme pain end of the spectrum given people even within my own orbit, who I know, who experience it on just a completely different level from me. But it makes it so that you can function.
- [34:02]
Tom Zeller Jr.
And it's this really weird transient disability, whereas you're like you're forever cured in most cases. I mean, some people do have chronic forms of the disease, which I can't even imagine. For most people it comes and it goes. So you're disabled and then you're not. Or if you're not fully disabled, you're certainly diminished and then you're not. And to some extent that also has contributed to a sense that, well, this isn't something that we really should spend any money on. Despite the fact that were you to introduce a cure for headaches writ large, just prevent them from happening, the amount of sheer economic benefit from that would be absolutely staggering. On the order of whole GDP of.
- [34:47]
Jonathan Fields
Some countries, on top of just the lessening of suffering on a scale that is astonishing.
- [34:54]
Tom Zeller Jr.
Of course.
- [34:54]
Jonathan Fields
There's something I'm really curious about and wonder if you came across any research in your exploration. So a million years ago I used to teach yoga in New York City and there would be nights where 6, 30 would come. I'd show up at my studio, there would be a packed room full of, like, 50 people, mat to mat, and they're expecting me to show up and give them 90 minutes. That will be worth the time they just gave me. And my head would be pounding, absolutely pounding. I was in the middle of a migraine. I could turn down the lights. I could sort of, like, adjust. And I noticed a weird thing happened pretty often. Right. I would walk up, and then I would walk into the room. My head is pounding. But this was my job, and I own the studio also, so it was sort of like I had to quote, suck it up. This is what I do. Right. People were expecting this of me. So I went in, and then I began to notice this repeated pattern, which is that I get a couple minutes into teaching the last class, and all of a sudden I'd be like, oh, my head is pounding again. And it got me really curious about the role of attention in the experience of headache, pain. And I know attention just in general, chronic pain, there can be a really strong association. But it was almost like when I stepped in, I said, this is my job. I need to be utterly present here. I need to just completely shift my attention outward to these people in a room and lose myself in that moment that, for all intents and purposes, I did not have a headache. But the moment that my attention, the last person left and my attention shifted back into me, it was there. Again, I'm curious what your take is on that. From the research that you've done, the people you've talked to.
- [36:36]
Tom Zeller Jr.
There is a fair amount of decent evidence, I think, that cognitive behavioral therapy, for instance, works for some people. I don't think it works for all people. But there is some amount of that research that suggests that you can will yourself. Some people can will themselves to a place where they either are able to calm down that pain or set it out of a frame of reference enough that they're able to function without it. They're doing that consciously. It sounds to me like you were doing it unconsciously in some way.
- [37:10]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. And at the same time, like, at that point, I had already started to develop a pretty dedicated meditation practice. So, like, I had a practice of directing my attention and holding it in a particular way. And I wasn't consciously trying to do that, but what I was consciously doing was saying, I know where my attention needs to be for this fixed window of time, and I need to give it all. And it was almost like there was no room for the pain while I was doing that.
- [37:35]
Tom Zeller Jr.
Yeah. And I think that that's a. Congratulations. It's extraordinary that you're able to do that because I think a lot of people, there's a part of me that hears your story and doesn't want to suggest to listeners who could never do that in a million years totally get it either, because that this is something that they could think themselves out of. Because in some ways that does tend to shift it back, you know, a certain amount of responsibility for the disease back onto the patient in a way that I'm loathe to do.
- [38:06]
Jonathan Fields
And I'm with you. The last thing I would either of us want to do is sort of like shame and blame somebody for not being able to have this experience.
- [38:13]
Tom Zeller Jr.
At the same time, I think that there is a natural tendency, I think, when we experience pain. I mean, I would add the caveat in my case with the pain of a cluster headache. I will allow and issue the caveat that I can't know how anyone else would experience a cluster headache. But I experience lots of kinds of pain in my life. I've had terrible ankle surgery. I've practically broken an ankle while running. I've had any measure of painful experiences. But this is a category difference. And on the intensity scale of I would not be able to do what you did, and I would be literally on the floor just writhing. To me, it's very much like the intensity of a pain that you might get from having your hand on a hot burner. It's that level, but not stop. You can't take your hand off the burner. I'm not sure I could even gather thoughts. I couldn't gather thoughts to focus on something else. That said, the idea that you, that we try to distract our attention from the pain is so native to the experience of pain in the human animal that we, you know, which is why people often do self harm in other ways during the throes of a really serious attack, both migraineurs and cluster patients. But I would, you know, I've never talked about this out loud, but, you know, yeah, I would grind, you know, in the experience while having the headache, I would. I would sometimes grind my fingers into my scalp in the spot where the pain was to the point where, you know, I'd be bleeding. And in an attempt, and it does actually, I want to say help, but it's a distraction. You're focusing your attention on other stimuli in the body. I don't think, though, that, you know, a classical migraine or a cluster headache, the molecular sort of event that's happening the neurological event that is happening is dominant and almost impossible to just look away from. I think what your experience is pretty remarkable. But I also think that it does have affinities with. They try to teach this. I visited facilities where cognitive behavioral therapy and grabbing control of pain and trying to refocus. It is a very common strategy. And for some people, it really does work. And I think it probably has something to do with the level of intensity of a pain at some point, you.
- [40:36]
Jonathan Fields
Know, I'm sure it does. Yeah.
- [40:37]
Tom Zeller Jr.
If there was a dagger going through your head at the beginning of that yoga class, you probably couldn't think your way.
- [40:45]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah.
- [40:45]
Tom Zeller Jr.
Out of it, I'm guessing. But maybe, maybe you could, I don't know.
- [40:48]
Jonathan Fields
Agree. And I think that's probably right, you know. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Good Life project is sponsored by Jerry. So question for you. Would you rather spend a weekend memorizing Shakespeare and pig Latin or shop for car insurance the old fashioned way? I know it's an oddly specific choice, but it points to how we used to handle car insurance. And Jerry makes the experience just so much better. So Jerry partners with 50 plus top rated insurers to help you explore options. You answer a few questions once, and then Jerry helps you compare rates side by side. No jumping between websites, no endless forms. They even handle canceling your old policy and could help you find a policy that may better suit your needs. So stop needlessly overpaying for car insurance. Drivers who save with Jerry save on average $110 a month. That's more than $1,300 a year. So before you renew your policy, do yourself a favor. Download the Jerry app or head to Jerry AI Goodlife. In just a few minutes, you can compare quotes and coverages side by side from up to 50 top insurers. Jerry car insurance made simple. And finally, on your side. Based on drivers who switched and saved with Jerry over the past 12 months, over 20% of drivers who switched with Jerry found a monthly premium of $87 or less. Not all drivers find savings. Good Life project is sponsored by Function Health. So I have been fascinated by this idea of having a clear window into your health beyond just how you feel day to day. That's why I was intrigued when I learned about function, health. And then when I tried it out, I was pretty much hooked. They give you access to over 160 biomarkers, everything from heart health and hormones to inflammation and stress markers. It's the kind of comprehensive testing that helps you understand your body at a deeper level. All tracked securely over time. I actually had my annual physical a few months back and then about a month later I did my function testing. And I have to say, the function labs were so much more comprehensive. They picked up things that were missed on my much more limited traditional tests. And it's given me a chance to address them now with simple lifestyle shifts before they potentially turn into something bigger. And what really caught my attention is how they make complex health data actually meaningful. You get clear insights about your results, helping you take practical steps towards better health. It's why health leaders like Dr. Mark Hyman, Dr. Andrew Huberman and Dr. Jeremy London stand behind this approach. So learn more and join using our link. Visit functionhealth.com goodlife or just click the link in the show notes now. GoodLife Project is sponsored by BetterHelp. So you know that feeling when you're searching online for ways to improve your mental wellness and suddenly you're just drowning in advice. It's cold plunges, gratitude journals, meditation apps. It can be overwhelming trying to figure out what actually works for you. What's beautiful about therapy is that it cuts through all that noise. It's about having someone who really listens and helps you discover what works specifically for you and your life. And BetterHelp makes this incredibly simple. With over 30,000 therapists on their platform, serving more than 5 million people worldwide, they have become the largest online therapy provider for good reason. Their therapists get an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for live sessions based on over 1.7 million client reviews. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with better help and Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com goodlifeproject that's better. H E L P or just click the link in the show notes. Let's shift gears a little bit and talk about treatment because there are a number of different ways that we approach headache. Let's start out by talking a little bit about pharma, because I think that's a go to for most people in the beginning or else that's the first thing is that they try beyond whatever is over the counter, which may for some, depending on what they're experiencing, help in some way. But I think after that the next thing is, okay, so what might be prescribed to me and there are a handful of common medications that work in varying degrees. So take me into this a bit yeah.
- [44:50]
Tom Zeller Jr.
So, I mean, the most interesting thing to me that I discovered, and I guess I sort of knew this intuitively, is that there are. Up until just a few years ago, and by few, I mean five, six years ago, there were no medications on the market at all that were expressly developed to treat a migraine headache or to treat a cluster headache in a preventative way. There was one in the 1960s that was incredibly toxic, methylcerade, which is now no longer prescribed, although it does have some clinical use, but it also created all kinds of nasty side effects. And then every other drug that's been prescribed, and in my case, for instance, it would be verapamil, which is a calcium channel blocker, also very common prescription for migraine patients. Topiramate, which is, strangely, an antiepileptic drug that seemed to have some affinity or seemed to help some migraine patients for reasons that we couldn't explain, also became a default prescription for migraine patients and for cluster patients. And up until, say, the 1990s, that kind of was it. You might get caffeine pills. Kafrgot was a common migraine prescription. And then in the 1990s, there was a wonderful discovery of Sumatriptan, which is a drug, if you have migraines, I would guess you've probably been prescribed at least once. Does it work for you?
- [46:18]
Jonathan Fields
Ish. Ish.
- [46:20]
Tom Zeller Jr.
Okay, yeah, it does work for a lot of people, but not everyone. And one thing that I learned in doing this, because I hadn't really covered pharma before, but if it works for about half of people, which is a roll of the dice, really, that's considered a sensational, sensational drug discovery. If it works for 60% of people, you've struck gold. And yet for any given patient, it's a crapshoot, which seemed really pathetic to me, but that's really what we've been looking at. Sumatriptan was a great discovery. It sort of grew out of a lot of interest in serotonin, which we were only starting to learn anything about in the 50s and 60s. In the 70s, we started to isolate some receptors in the brain that seemed to have an affinity for this molecule that it was Glaxo who was looking at. It seemed to have some interaction with head pain in a way that we couldn't explain but did seem to work. So in the 1990s, we got. It was called Imitrex at the time, which is. It's now generic. And the drug was Sumatriptan. And it was great. And it was A way to treat an individual migraine or cluster attack. I couldn't take it by pill because it just didn't work fast enough. You know, a cluster headache comes on in seconds with no warning and to wait for a pill to take effect would not be, would not be the most effective therapy. But anyway, that drug was great and it worked well enough for some people, but it didn't really solve anything and it certainly didn't prevent headaches, which is part of the problem. So you couldn't, you can't keep popping Sumatriptan because eventually the body adapts and you get into this terrible cycle of relapse headaches so that the sumatriptan wears off and now you've got a really massive and even worse migraine than before. You take another trumitryptan and you're caught in a cycle that's just miserable for folks. So Even by the 1990s, 2000s, 2010, we didn't have anything to prevent a migraine or a cluster headache, which again, is pretty stunning.
- [48:25]
Jonathan Fields
Just giving the prevalence and the impact.
- [48:28]
Tom Zeller Jr.
Yeah, yeah. But behind the scenes, there was some swashbuckling science going on that we don't read about. And in some ways, despite the funding profile, that headache has enjoyed or not enjoyed for the last many decades, I mean, it tends to be wildly underfunded. And so this research, if it gets done at all, is, is usually funded by industry anyway and only if they have a hopeful target. And they started to have one in the 90s and 2000s in a molecule called CGRP, which is calcitonin gene related peptide. And it's basically a neurotransmitter that was discovered in the 80s and through some really interesting experiments, some scientists in Europe and in the United States figured out that during the throes of an attack, the blood seems to become awash in this strange CGRP molecule. And enough of them were curious to know why that they developed an antibody. Unlike a typical synthesized chemical medication, these are biologics that they developed, large molecule stuff that are very, very, very uniquely targeted to just this receptor for cgrp. And lo and behold, a lot of people that in early testing stopped having migraine headaches. It was almost kind of miraculous, like they would, you know, it wasn't. This was not treating the pain of a headache, it was preventing women particularly who had had 15, 16 terrible grinding migraine days a month suddenly gone for the first times in their lives. And I talked to people for whom it was like awakenings. I mean, they Just were like, this is like, I have my life back and all of it tied to that really curious, interesting CGRP molecule that until 2018, which is the first time this stuff hit the market, had never really been commercialized into a medication. So it was sort of a very hopeful moment. And I think we're still in that hopeful moment in that there are now scientists who are trying to figure out is there a more consequential molecule that we could be targeting that would be more universal, or is there some sort of mechanism or receptor further downstream that would work for not just 50% or 60% or 70% of people, but maybe all. And that's what they're working on now. So it's actually a really great time to have a headache.
- [50:53]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting. I've gone through the whole cycle. I currently take an anti CGRP as an injection on a monthly basis. And I was very doubtful because I have a lot of history of things not working all that well for me. So I kind of hesitantly said, all right, I'll do this. And sure enough, like three months in, I was like, wait a minute, I'm barely ever getting headaches anymore. And I was like, I don't believe this, because maybe my sleep is better, maybe my stress is a little better, maybe my nutrition's better. And it took a while for me to be like, no, this is actually the major thing that's different right now. And it was. I still have a, quote, rescue med if I really need it.
- [51:36]
Tom Zeller Jr.
Yeah.
- [51:36]
Jonathan Fields
But it's also. It's a one time version of that same thing.
- [51:39]
Tom Zeller Jr.
Yeah.
- [51:39]
Jonathan Fields
And it is miraculous.
- [51:41]
Tom Zeller Jr.
It's kind of miraculous. And you, you know, you may well be. You know, there's still a lot of disagreement within the industry and among neuroscientists as to like, how what is the real world efficacy rate of these CGRP meds? And the more I talk to people, I mean, you talk to some and they're just like, it's a miracle. It's everybody, all my patients are being cured by this. But the more you talk to people and the more you sort of look at survey data, it starts to kind of ratchet down closer to that 50% mark. That has been true of a lot of medications, maybe a little bit better. But the salient takeaway, I think, is that there is this group of people who are super responders. Not only does the CGRP stuff work, it really, really works for people who have the genetic makeup that we don't fully understand. And you might well be one of them. And I might be, too. For a cluster, you don't take it as an ongoing basis. You take it a larger set of injections at the first sign of an attack. It's characteristic of cluster headaches to last for roughly two or three months of daily multiple grinding headaches and then disappear entirely. So you just take it enough to stop that cycle and then don't take it again. And I was as skeptical as you. I've tried so much weird stuff in my life. It's not much weirder for me to inject this stuff into my bum and hope for the best. But I didn't think that it really was going to make a difference. But I believe it did. I believe it did, for the first time in my life, stop a cycle of cluster headaches from coming on. The big question marks with CGRP is like you're taking it on the regular, you know, what are the byproducts of suppressing CGRP to that extent for long periods of time? We don't know. I mean, those, those questions aren't answered. There is some evidence that even among super responders that the effect starts to wear off over time. So how long have you been taking?
- [53:39]
Jonathan Fields
For me, it's less than a year. It's fairly new.
- [53:42]
Tom Zeller Jr.
So, yeah, it's fairly new. Yeah. But there is some evidence, and it's not, you know, bulletproof, but there is some evidence to suggest that after a few years they start coming back. And the CGRP, some patients who have been taking it since 2018 are now finding themselves sort of back to the drawing board in really kind of a heartbreaking way, to be honest.
- [54:06]
Jonathan Fields
I would imagine, because you kind of think, oh, wow, like, this is it, I'm good, and all of a sudden it's back. I want to talk about another category of interventions and treatments which I think is really fascinating, like neuromodulation devices. And this seems to be sort of like this new wave of actual devices. So this is a less invasive type of thing where instead of taking something that's going to alter your internal chemistry, there's something that you generally wear or put on on the outside or go for a treatment. Take me into this category of neuromodulators and devices.
- [54:40]
Tom Zeller Jr.
I have to say I've not personally tried any of them, but I've talked to a lot of patients who have and swear by them, and I've talked to a lot of doctors who prescribe them and who more or less think whatever works, whatever Gets you through the night. If it's working for someone, God bless. That said, the theory behind them has a lot of science behind it. I mean, to the extent that headaches are presumed to be at least in large part, if not in whole part, neurological. So there's a signaling process going awry. It stands to reason that if you can interrupt that signaling process in some way through an electrical stimulation, you might get some pain relief. So there's the cephaly device, which is. It almost looks like, I think of ISIS when I imagine it. It's a bit of a crown with a diamond that sits on your forehead, and it sends electrical signals into the nerves of the face. And in some people, this helps interrupt the pain of a migraine headache. The vagus nerve, which I'm sure you've read a lot about and probably even discussed on the show, is a really prominent superhighway for sending signals up and down throughout the body, particularly from the gut. And there is some sense that there is a gut brain connection that has information for us on migraines, too, although we don't fully understand it. But these devices can be held to the neck, and it'll send electromagnetic signals into the vagus nerve. And in some patients, it does seem to. To help alleviate a headache. There are some that go on the back of the neck. There's a whole forest of them. There's one now that attaches to the arm, strangely enough, and travels up the nerves on the inner part of the arm. That seems really among the most promising of the ones that I've heard and read about. I don't think that there's a lot of. There's not a lot of clinical data to go on. Most of these are developed by device makers who have different hoops that they have to jump through at the fda. So we have to take the studies that they produce at face value. I'm not saying that they're faked or anything, but is it the best, most robust set of data out there on any of these devices? No. So there's a part of me that seems that remains somewhat skeptical of them as any sort of universal. I'm going to catch hell for saying this as some sort of universal solution for people. That said, it clearly works for some people, and if it works for you, then I think that you need to ask no more questions and just kind of carry on. And this is something, by the way, I'll mention that there's some evidence even in ancient times that we understood that electrical shock can have some interaction with the brain and head. So there's some speculation that even that far back is ancient Mesopotamia. We had some idea that an electric shock could help a headache. So it's not crazy that we would think this stuff could work.
- [57:40]
Jonathan Fields
And if you buy into the notion that there is some sort of electrical wiring issue that's happening, that's at least contributing in a major way, then if there's a way to alter that electrical process, okay, absolutely. So whether we're talking about, like, pharmaceutical intervention devices, it's still kind of like, you know what? Try it all until you find something that works. Because we can't point to any one thing and say, like, I have a high expectation this is going to work for you and what you're experiencing, which is, on the one hand, well, how cool. There are a whole bunch of different things that I can try, and there's a universe of possibilities here. But on the other hand, potentially just really frustrating because if you start to ratchet through and you're trying it and you're really giving it your all, it's like, nope, not this. And then you go to the next one. Nope, not this. Then you go to the fancy devices. Nope, not this one. This one, this one. And then you're taking time, you're spending money. Oftentimes, the newer things, whether it's pharma or a device, they're not covered by insurance, or you have to really fight with insurance to get some level of coverage. So it's time. And also, not infrequently, a fair amount of money, and you have no idea if it's going to help until you actually do the thing.
- [58:54]
Tom Zeller Jr.
Yeah. Such is the journey of a lot of people with headaches. I mean, they are. One data point that emerged for me in the book was that headache tends to strike people in the prime of their life, right in their most productive years. It often starts in puberty or shortly thereafter, and often enough tends to wane for a lot of patients as they reach middle age or their elder years. And the rates of polypharmacy among that population who otherwise should be sort of in their most robust years of their lives are commensurate with geriatric populations in terms of the amounts and numbers of overlapping drugs that they're taking just in order to find relief. Many patients are taking six, seven different kinds of drugs using devices, overlapping, just to try to make it through the day and piece together in existence. And that's the grim tableau that I think a lot of headache patients face. I don't want to conclude on such a grim note, because I do think there is a lot of interesting science happening. But in some ways the takeaway from the book, I think would be it's happening finally and in spite of a lot of headwaters that had to be overcome.
- [60:05]
Jonathan Fields
And also as we have this conversation, compared to if we had had this conversation a decade ago, 10 years ago, there's a lot more that is available to explore today. And it feels like the pace is accelerating, whether it's through funding, which is, as you described, a challenge, whether it's through private industry or now device makers. And I would imagine that AI is going to play a really interesting role in the development of new ideas, new treatments and solutions.
- [60:35]
Tom Zeller Jr.
Incredible ideas. Yeah. Can I share one anecdote on the AI front?
- [60:39]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah.
- [60:39]
Tom Zeller Jr.
One of the main guys that I talked to, he's a researcher from ucla, is developing a camera. It would be on your computer that looks at you throughout your workday and through the use of AI training would be able to know. It would alert you just by looking at you that you're going to have a migraine in three days. So it can detect. That's sort of the goal and that's what they're working towards. But there is some evidence that that might come to pass because these AI models are able to detect subtle fluctuations in skin temperature and blood pulsation just by watching your skin move. And there's some good evidence that your migraine, anytime you get one started developing as a storm several days before. So, yeah, AI is going to have some fascinating roles to play in all this.
- [61:30]
Jonathan Fields
Yeah. I mean, imagine you pair that with sort of like a camera and then you've got to work wearable on. That's reporting in a whole bunch of different things where you can't. It's like when people were reporting that certain wearables were actually able to detect during COVID three or four days before any symptoms appeared, when somebody had a high likelihood of actually getting that. And I'm excited about the future of integrating things. Then we go from. And then we'll wrap up shortly after this. We also go from AI, which is the absolute cutting edge. We don't know what's coming, what's happening so fast. And then we go way back in time to psychedelics and interesting research being done in particular around psilocybin and headaches right now.
- [62:10]
Tom Zeller Jr.
Yeah. And that's sort of how the book starts is, you know, I've known for a while that this was percolating. It's particularly useful or at Least it's experimented with in the population of cluster headache patients who really were sort of the driving force behind science on this. This is really interesting story of ground up science. This is another Joanna Kempner book. I keep plugging her books, but she has a book out now that's about this group of cluster headache patients who saw that psychedelics were helping them with their headaches and created this online culture where they came up with a regimen that seemed to work for a lot of people and then brought it to researchers at Harvard and said, you should look into this, you should look into this. And finally some. Some researchers listened, but at the end of the day it makes some sense because you're playing around with the same serotogenic receptors in the brain that sumatriptan is, that ergot medicines were also playing around with. There's something in that particular family of receptors that definitely has a common role in migraine and cluster and all primary headache pathophysiology, but we don't quite know what it is. So, yes, psychedelics a huge area of research now. I think it's going to be some years. Just because the populations are small, it's hard to get funding for these studies. But you could do it like I did and experiment on your own. I'm not advocating for it, but it can help people. It did not work for me. Have you ever tried?
- [63:37]
Jonathan Fields
I have not. Which is in Boulder. That makes me the weirdo here, by the way. It is a town where there's a lot of psychedelic, both therapeutic and in recreational. And recreational. It's a little bit of a weird place. If we zoom the lens out here a little bit. Are you optimistic?
- [63:56]
Tom Zeller Jr.
Yeah, I mean, I'm optimistic in that I think scientists are finally paying some attention to it. I think the recent success of the CGRP medications, such as they are, have provided a signal to big pharma that there's money to be made here. And let's face it, in the mercenary world we live in, we need pharma to pay attention. And if they think they can make a buck, they'll try to do that. So I think that there is a certain momentum that's happening now on headache science. And I guess there's a part of me that's optimistic that the book itself will give us some permission to talk about it in ways that we haven't and maybe expose some of these forces that have been kind of a drag on headache research and on headache sort of as it's distilled through the culture that those will be exposed in a new way and that people can talk about it openly and honestly. You know, most people that I talk to seem most hopeful that, like, people they know who don't have headaches will have something they can put in their hand and say, see, this is what I'm going through. I guess I'm hopeful that maybe that'll help too.
- [65:06]
Jonathan Fields
Feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So I always wrap with the same question here, which is in this container of Good Life Project. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up.
- [65:17]
Tom Zeller Jr.
To live a good life to me is to have your health, to have people around you who support you and are there for you whether you're healthy or not, and to be in a world where we don't judge, where we sort of stop judging each other and measuring our pain against one another and creating hierarchies of, of suffering. I think that, to me, is a good life.
- [65:47]
Jonathan Fields
Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, safe bet you'll also love the conversation we had with Dr. Jennifer Hyes about how movement eases the mind by reshaping your brain. You can find a link to that episode in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, John Jonathan Fields editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Christopher Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did, because you're still listening here. Do me a personal favor. A seven second favor. Share it with just one person. I mean, if you want to share it with more, that's awesome too. But just one person? Even then, invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter. Because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project.
- [66:57]
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Tom Zeller Jr.
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Tom Zeller Jr.
See capitalone.com for details.
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