Want Real, Lasting Change? It’s Time to Try a Different Approach. | Eric Zimmer

Summary

Good Life Project Podcast Summary

Episode: Want Real, Lasting Change? It’s Time to Try a Different Approach.

Guest: Eric Zimmer | Host: Jonathan Fields

Release Date: March 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Jonathan Fields hosts Eric Zimmer—host of The One You Feed podcast and author of How a Little Becomes a Lot—to dissect the true nature of personal transformation and lasting change. Zimmer draws on his journey from addiction to coaching thousands on self-improvement, promoting the idea that change is a skill, not a character trait. Together, they debunk common myths about change, explore the framework “little by little, a little becomes a lot,” tackle the importance of values, discuss the impact of self-compassion, and share actionable strategies for sustainable progress.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Debunking Myths About Change (04:44–12:08)

• Change as Skill, Not Trait
  Zimmer reframes change as a skill everyone can develop, rather than an innate character trait or flaw. The pervasive belief that “some people are just wired for success” is misleading and harmful.

  • “Change is not a personality trait, it’s a skill. And like any skill, it’s something you can get better at with the right tools and practice.” — Eric Zimmer (00:45)

• Different Starting Lines
  People begin change journeys with different levels of support, resources, and circumstances. Comparing ourselves to others is unfair and can be self-defeating.

  • “We all have different starting lines. We’re all differently resourced…When we make direct comparisons, most times we’re probably going to lose.” — Jonathan Fields (10:55)

• Action is Only One Stage
  Referencing the Stages of Change (Transtheoretical Model), Zimmer explains why jumping straight to taking action is ineffective. Out of six steps, only one is action—people often skip critical preparatory stages.

2. The ‘Little by Little’ Philosophy (14:11–23:10)

• Accumulation of Small Actions
  Zimmer’s refrain, “little by little, a little becomes a lot,” is the foundation of his approach. He unmasks the danger of fixating on life-changing epiphanies, emphasizing that sustainable change comes from unglamorous, daily choices.

  • “We prioritize this epiphany. We prioritize big moments. It’s not that they don’t have value, but it’s all the little moments that all accumulate.” — Eric Zimmer (14:25)

• Three-Part Framework

  1. Low Resistance: Choose actions you’ll actually do, tailored to your effort threshold.
  2. Consistency Over Time: Repeat these small actions regularly.
  3. In the Same Direction: Focus energy rather than scatter it across too many goals.
  • “Small enough you’ll do it. I don’t mean necessarily tiny...but keep doing it in some sort of consistent direction.” — Eric Zimmer (17:16)

• Avoiding Fragmentation
  Chasing too many changes at once dilutes impact and leads to discouragement.

  • “You become so fragmented with your effort and your energy that little by little becomes teensy, teensy, teensy bit by teensy, teensy, teensy bit. And you see no progress along any of those paths...and it just becomes demoralizing.”— Jonathan Fields (19:37)

3. Habits vs. Values: Knowing What’s Worth Wanting (25:49–37:44)

• Habits Are Not Always Beneficial
  Good automatic behaviors can be helpful, but meaningful change starts with understanding what’s genuinely important to you.

  • “A habit is something that happens automatically...if you’ve drifted off course...that’s problematic. That’s why, kind of going back to, like, what really matters to me, what do I want?” — Eric Zimmer (26:25)

• Values vs. Desires & Value Conflicts
  Zimmer distinguishes between values (what’s worth wanting) and desires (what you feel in the moment). Change gets hard when values and desires are in conflict—e.g., wanting health vs. wanting a donut—or when two values clash, such as career vs. family.

  • “The question I pose in the book...is what do I want most versus what do I want now?” — Eric Zimmer (28:03)

  • “There’s a lot of great artists over time...who continued to work a normal job and do their art. ... There’s a trade-off. I am valuing that freedom over financial success for sure.” — Eric Zimmer (32:25)

• Ongoing Reflection
  Values and priorities change with time and circumstances.

  • “The answer to [what’s worth wanting] is going to change over time… We have to sit with it, and often we have to sit with it for a long time, and it changes over time.” — Jonathan Fields (37:44)

4. Self-Compassion as a Change Tool (38:50–45:22)

• Letting Go of Harsh Self-Judgment
  Being kind to yourself is essential; shame and self-critique impede learning and change.

  • “No change in my life has been more beneficial than learning to be kinder to myself...It’s actually pretty critical to the change process.” — Eric Zimmer (38:50)

• Dirty Fuel Analogy
  Harshness and berating oneself can be motivating in the short term, but “it burns dirty and gunks up the engine” over the years.

  • “They’re right, because that really angry inner voice is a kind of fuel. But…I start seeing it in people in their 30s, 40s and 50s...it suddenly no longer works that being so hard on themselves.” — Eric Zimmer (40:35)

5. The Still Point Method: Practical Change Techniques (45:22–49:08)

• Building New Thought Patterns
  Awareness and presence are crucial for intercepting old habits. Zimmer’s ‘Still Point Method’ uses frequent reminders as behavioral prompts to create “choice points” for new actions.

  • “The still point method is that we use the science of behavior change...set an alarm on your phone to go off four times a day where you reflect on patience...Doing that four times a day starts to add up.” — Eric Zimmer (45:22)

• Presence Enables Change
  Frequent, simple self-checks help develop the capacity to notice—and interrupt—counterproductive thoughts and reactions in real time.

  • “If I’m asking myself five times a day what I’m thinking and feeling briefly...it’s more likely that when I start to spin out, I’m gonna catch it.” — Eric Zimmer (48:16)

6. Zooming Out: The Scope of Real Change (50:41–54:10)

• Proof of Transformation Zimmer shares a personal story highlighting the immense changes possible over time: He once would have gone to any length for opiates; now he can handle them without temptation.

  • “That is a sign to what, little by little, over a long period of time, achieved a completely different consciousness, one that doesn’t even make sense to me...We are really capable of immense change. We really are. But it takes time.” — Eric Zimmer (51:00)

• What Makes a Good Life?
  Zimmer emphasizes shifting focus from self to others, balancing personal happiness with contributing to the world.

  • “To me, a good life is really one where the changes that I’m making make me better and happier, but also are good for the world and the other people in it.” — Eric Zimmer (53:09)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Change as a Skill:
  “Change is not a personality trait, it’s a skill. And like any skill, it’s something you can get better at with the right tools and practice.” — Eric Zimmer (00:45)

• Accumulation of Small Choices:
  “Little by little is an approach...low resistance actions done consistently over time in the same direction.” — Eric Zimmer (14:25)

• Self-Compassion Upgrade:
  “No change in my life has been more beneficial than learning to be kinder to myself.” — Eric Zimmer (38:50)

• On Dirty Fuel:
  “That really angry inner voice is a kind of fuel. But...it burns dirty and gunks up the engine.” — Eric Zimmer (40:35)

• Still Point Method:
  “You can’t change [a thought pattern] by thinking about it once a day...But doing that four times a day starts to add up.” — Eric Zimmer (45:22)

• Immense Change Over Time:
  “We are really capable of immense change. We really are. But it takes time.” — Eric Zimmer (51:00)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:45 – Zimmer’s thesis: Change is a skill, not a trait
• 04:44 – Myths and barriers to meaningful change
• 10:55 – Comparing our change journey to others
• 14:11 – The “little by little” approach and story of recovery
• 17:10 – Framework: Low resistance, consistency, direction
• 19:37 – Consequences of fragmented efforts
• 25:49 – Habits vs. values and what’s worth wanting
• 28:03 – Resolving desire vs. value and value-vs.-value conflicts
• 37:44 – Ongoing evolution of what matters most
• 38:50 – The necessity of self-compassion for change
• 45:22 – The Still Point Method for changing thought patterns
• 51:00 – Story of transformation and evidence that change is possible
• 53:09 – Defining a good life: balancing self and others

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Concluding Message

In a climate obsessed with quick fixes, Zimmer’s methodical, compassionate, and realistic approach reframes the process of self-change. Success arises not from Herculean efforts or singular moments, but from humble, repeated choices guided by self-understanding, clear values, and kindness toward oneself.
“A good life is one where the changes that I’m making make me better and happier, but also are good for the world and the other people in it.” — Eric Zimmer (53:09)

Transcript

[A]

Okay, so if you ask a hundred people if there's something meaningful that they really want to change about their lives, almost every single one will say yes. But if you ask those same people how many actually have tried and succeeded, the numbers get pretty discouraging pretty quickly. We tend to think that if we can't stick to a new routine, it's because we're lazy or unmotivated or just not wired for success. But my guest today, an old friend, Eric Zimmerman, has a much kinder and more practical take. He argues that change is not a personality trait, it's a skill. And like any skill, it's something you can get better at with the right tools and practice. Eric is the host of the One youe Feed podcast and the author of the new book How a Little Becomes a Lot. He's someone who has walked the path from the depths of addiction to helping thousands of people navigate their own transformations. And today we're breaking down a three part framework for consistent progress and talking about a simple way to catch those self sabotaging thoughts before they actually take over. We even get into why your values might be fighting each other and how to fix that. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project. Good Life Project is sponsored by Bioptimizers. So most nights I try to land a sleep plane. Lights lower, phone away a few pages of a book and I just want my body to get the memo that we're safe to rest. And I kept hearing about how magnesium can help. That is why I'm just super excited to try Magnesium Breakthrough. A lot of magnesium supplements, they use one or two forms. This one actually combines seven different forms of magnesium plus cofactors that help your body absorb and use it. So the invitation here is simple. Try it with me for a few weeks. Track your sleep. Notice how you feel in the morning and through the day. More relaxed, more steady, more rested. And there's basically no risk. BuyOptimizers backs it with a 365 day no questions asked money back guarantee. So if you've been craving a smarter nighttime ritual, give Bioptimizers a try. Go to buyoptimizers.com goodlife and use our exclusive code goodlife15 to get 15% off any order or just click the link in the show notes. Make 2026 the year you finally start sleeping great again. GoodLife Project is sponsored by Bill, an intelligent finance platform that helps businesses and accounting fir scale with proven results. If you run a business, you know the sneaky way money tasks multiply. One invoice turns into 10 follow ups. A simple payment turns into a spreadsheet, a login, and eventually a little knot in your stomach. Bill is trusted by nearly half a million businesses and their accountants, and it's securely processed over a trillion dollars in transactions. To put it simply, it helps you manage, move and maximize your money so your attention can go back to the work that actually matters. So stop the guesswork and start scaling with a proven choice. Head over to Bill.comProven to connect with a payments expert and get a $250 gift card as a thank you. That's Bill.comProven. or just click the link in the Show Notes Terms and conditions apply. See Offer page for details. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Apple Card members can earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases wherever they shop. This means you could be earning d cash on just about anything, like a slice of pizza from your local pizza place or a latte from the corner coffee shop. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app to see your credit limit offer in minutes subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and [e-mail] Eric Zimmer, you, and I have been rolling together as colleagues, as friends, for years now, and we have had so many conversations on the mic, off the mic, a lot more about this thing called change. You know, most people genuinely want to change something, something in their lives, whether it's a relationship, their well being, their mental health, their work. You name it, there's something in there. I don't know if you took 100 people and you basically said, is there anything meaningful that you want to change? I would venture to say that very few people would answer no. And yet so many of us want to change something meaningful. But so few of us succeed at the process of change. We fail even when the desire is real. Take me into this. What's happening here?

[B]

Well, I wish I could give you the one secret and be like, okay, just do this and you know, you'll make change easy. I think change is a, is a multifaceted thing and we, we change and don't change for different reasons. But I think there are some principles that we can apply and some ways of approaching change, as well as some mindsets that can make it more likely that we will change.

[A]

So what are I want to go into those principles because I think they're, they're sensible and they make a real difference. But also, I'm just really curious in Your mind, Is there any one or two, just big myths, big assumptions, big things that are the main barriers for us?

[B]

I think there's a couple things. One is I really believe that change is a skill. I really believe that we can learn how to make changes. But most of us tend to treat it as a character flaw problem. Tend to treat it as, I'm lazy or I don't, I'm not motivated, or I'm not the kind of person who can finish things, or I just don't want it enough. And so. And when we do that, we then don't do what we really need to do in order to change, which is to learn to say, like, well, what is happening? You know, a big part of my story is an addiction story, and maybe we'll get into that, right? And there's a moment where it seems like the change takes. But there was a whole lot that came before that that was all really important. All the things that I tried that didn't work, that taught me something like, oh, okay, well, I can do that, but I better not do that. This, you know, a lot of tinkering. And at one time I looked at all of that as like, I failed at changing. And in one sense, yes, I failed to get sober that time, but I was learning to the best of my ability. Now, I didn't learn as well as I could because I was an addict and I was shame driven. And so I wasn't really able to connect all the dots in the way that I would. But when I got to a place where somebody helped me turn down that character flaw narrative just enough, I was able to look back and go, okay, I see, I can't do that. Or, you know, what they said to do? You know, for me, it was a lot of like, they say to do A, B, C, D, E, F and G. And I do A and it doesn't work. And I'm like, all right, I come back, I mean, I'll do A and B and it, it doesn't work right? And eventually I did enough of the letters of the Alphabet that it worked. So I think that change being a skill is one of the big things that we get wrong about it. And then I think the second one is I covered it a little bit. Is that idea that change should just happen. If we look at one of the most well known models of change that the behavior scientists have studied and has held up, it's called the stages of change model, or the very fancy trans theoretical model of change, and it has six stages only One of those stages is action, but that's the stage that we almost all jump right to. And then are wondering why it doesn't. Why it doesn't stick. Because there's a lot. There's a lot that can come before that that makes it more likely, and then there are things that can come after that. So I would say those are a couple of the big things.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, that's so interesting. I want to dive into those a little bit more. The notion of your ability to change as almost like a character trait or a character flaw. If you make the assumption, well, there are those that just have this magical ability to change big things, hard things, and they seem to be able to just keep doing it over and over. You know, you want to get super fit. Boom, six months later, you are. You want to lose weight, Boom, you are. You want to change careers, boom, you do it. And you point to those people and say, wow, they're just different from me, aren't they? They're wired. I mean, how many times have you heard the phrase they're just wired differently? Yeah, right. You would just assume, like, you have it or you don't. And so I love the notion of you basically pointing that out and saying, well, no, this is actually a set of skills, and it's something that's a learnable thing rather than you have it or you don't type of thing. So there's no real. The idea that it's a character flaw if you don't have it is a misnomer because it's not a trait to start with.

[B]

It's not. I think that those people often have a couple of different things. They may have advantages that the other. That others of us don't have that make change easier. You know, a classic example, as I look back on my early recovery, is I was in a position. I could go to a meeting every day. I could go to two meetings a day if I wanted. Single mothers, different story, Right. So to say that, like, oh, Eric was able to do it easily and they weren't, is not exactly comparing things that are even. And then the. The other component is that people. Some people just know how to do it because either they intuited it or they were. They. It was modeled for them. Yeah, right. It was modeled for them. It was encouraged for them. They were in environments that made change possible. And so then they internalized that, and they went, oh, I can really change. Because that belief that I can or can't change is fundamental. If you don't believe, you can you, sooner or later won't.

[A]

And I think that really does. The bigger myth here is that we all have different starting lines. We're all differently resourced. You know, we're all different life circumstances. And when we point to somebody who is in a radically different place than us and we try and make the direct comparison, most times we're probably going to lose. We're just not them. We don't have their circumstances, their situation, their environment, their resources, their structural support. That second thing that you shared, though, is also really interesting. I want to tease that a little bit more, this notion that there is this existing model of change and it has six steps, and only one of those steps is action. Because if you ask the typical person, what do I need to affect real change in their life, basically, they'd probably say, well, I just need the right plan, you know, I need the right step. I need to know what are the steps to get me from where I am to that magical place that I want to be. If I have those steps and they're the right steps, quote, right steps, well, then I'll just follow the steps.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're saying even if those are the right steps, this is still one sixth of what's going on, and maybe actually not even 1/6. This is one of six, and it may not be equally weighted to the other five.

[B]

And I think there's something else in there too, because when I think. I mean, the transtheoretical model is one version of change. And like anything, it has its strengths, it has its weaknesses. I think the other thing that's really important to note, though, is that a lot of the change advice that we get, I would say it's structural. Right? Atomic Habits is largely a book about structural changes, and those are hugely important. We should make all the structural changes we can, meaning we should know what we're doing, we should know when we're doing it, how we're doing it. We should make it easy to use James's language, we should make it attractive, we should set up our environment, we should have support, we should do all of that. And that does a lot of heavy lifting. And even with that, the moment comes where it's Tuesday morning. And at Tuesday morning at 8am you are going to go for a run. Tuesday morning at 8am comes and you end up not doing it. And that is almost entirely. Call it emotional, call it internal, it's a. Something inside doesn't work. You are thinking or saying something to yourself that that causes you to make the choice you wish you didn't make in that moment. And so people are often doing one of the. They're doing one of two of those steps. They might be setting it up structurally, but not understanding how to work with themselves in the moment. Or they may be thinking it's all about the willpower that they bring to that moment. And I think without both, it's pretty hard to change. And again, back to talking about people who just do it. They have figured that out in their own way. You know, they've learned what to say to themselves in those moments when it's time to do it and you really just don't want to.

[A]

So a core part of your philosophy, you could even argue, sort of like your central thesis, is this notion of little by little, a little becomes a lot. Deconstruct this for me. Take me into this.

[B]

I'll start with a story. So 30 years ago, I stumbled into a detox center in Columbus, Ohio. I weighed 100 pounds, I was jaundiced from hepatitis C. I was homeless, I was a heroin addict. And the prosecutor was telling me I faced up to 50 years in prison. So I went in there and they said to me, you need to go to long term treatment. To which I said, no thank you, and went back to my room. And in my room I had that moment we talk about oftentimes for recovery, where I just saw clearly, like, if I leave this building, I am probably going to die or go to jail soon. So I went back and I said, okay, I'll go to treatment. If we were filming the movie in my life, like that is the moment, right? Like that's the thing is, you know, the, the, the strings will swell in the background, the director will hang around a long time on that. And sure, it's an important moment, but it's only important because I followed it with thousands of little off camera moments where I chose to call my sponsor instead of my dealer, or I took a different route home versus going past the bar, or I decided to work out in the morning. And we prioritize this epiphany. We prioritize this chain, these big moments. And it's not that they don't have value, but it's all the little moments that all accumulate. And most of us don't love that story because it's kind of boring, you know, it's kind of boring. And so little by little is an approach, you know, we all know it on some level. We all will say, well, Rome wasn't built in the day and you eat an elephant one bite at a time. And, and yet we don't really buy into it fully because when things don't change fast enough, we get discouraged. But little by little to me means something very specific. I mean, low resistance actions done consistently over time in the same direction.

[A]

Let's tease out those three pieces.

[B]

Yeah. So low resistance just means you will, you can, you can get yourself to do it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's going to be different for different people. Right? Like I, when I used to, early on in my meditation career, it was really hard for me. It was like I'd sit down and it was like the dark circus rolled into town and I knew other people who were like, I just feel so peaceful. It's like, what are you talking about?

[A]

I've never really had that experience meditating, by the way.

[B]

No, no.

[A]

Fifteen years in, I'm waiting for it.

[B]

But some people report like, I like it, I did not like it. So for me to sit there for 15 minutes would be really high effort. For someone else, it might be low effort. Conversely, if I'm trying to get in shape, for me, 45 minutes on a peloton bike may not be too much effort, but for someone else, a 10 minute walk would be high effort. So that's going to be different. So we'll actually do it. And so then since we'll actually do it, we keep doing it right consistently over time and then in the same direction is a important part. You know, shows like ours provide some wonderful things to the world, and we also just inundate people with all different ways and ideas about how and what they should change. Change. We're not alone. Instagram does it's everywhere. And little by little only becomes a lot if it's more or less pointing in the same way. What I think a lot of us have is just a lot of little things that are scattered all over the place. And so picking a thing or two and really letting that get sort of steady, then we can think about, okay, what else might we add? Because at some point you just can't add any more. You will find a place where you're like, okay, I want to do this thing, this thing, this thing and this thing. And you. A lot of people know this experience. Well, I can seem to get two of those going at any time. They vary. Maybe I'm journaling and I'm meditating, but I'm not exercising. Or I'm exercising, but I can't seem to meditate. And it's a lot of times that's simply an ability problem. And by Ability. I mean, you just run out of time. And so being able to narrow down and pick a direction for at least a period of time is also really valuable. So those are the three. Three parts of it. Small enough you'll do it. I don't mean necessarily tiny. I mean, now, BJ Fogg wrote a great book called Tiny Habits. I don't necessarily mean only floss one tooth. You might be able to floss your whole mouth. Right. It's going to depend on who you are. But keep doing it and do it in some sort of consistent direction.

[A]

Yeah, that last piece, I mean, I'm not alone with the first one. Totally makes sense consistently over time. Well, of course it builds over time and it accumulates little bits of progress and progress. And you're like, oh, wow, this is actually turning into something in the same direction. That's the one where I think a lot of us stumble and we don't really think about it because we're kind of like, look, we wildly overestimate the amount of energy and bandwidth that we have available to us. And then we're like, well, I am capable of trying to push these five different paths of change forward in my life, trying to accomplish these five different meaningful things all at the same time. Like, I can do it. You know, it doesn't take that much. And when you do that, then you become so fragmented with your effort and your energy that little by little becomes teensy, teensy, teensy, teensy, teensy bit by teensy, teensy, teensy, teensy bit. And you see no progress along any of those paths, even though you're theoretically devoting a little bit of time to all of them over time, and it just becomes demoralizing. You give up and say, this just

[B]

doesn't work a hundred percent. And I think that the word you use there, demoralizing, is really important because success builds upon itself in. In the world of change. If we go back to the fact that most of us, when we aren't successful at making the changes that we want, we take it as a character flaw and we get down on ourselves. That drives down motivation. We know motivation goes up when we feel good about ourselves, when we feel good about our chances of success, and it goes down when we feel bad about ourselves. And so if you are like, all right, I'm going to do five things each day, you know, pick your morning routine guru out there who will give you the five things you should do in your morning routine, and you do three of them consistently, you're going to still feel like you're failing because you didn't do all five. We would be much better off doing one and feeling good about it and getting it steady than adding two. And, you know, because I would much, you know, when I work with clients, I would much rather have somebody like, let's say they're trying to meditate. I would much rather have somebody meditate for five minutes and do it every day that they say they're going to do it. Let's say they said they're going to do it Monday through Friday versus do it twice a week for 30 minutes. Now, you might say that's odd because the second scenario, they're going to get 60 minutes of meditation and you're suggesting that they get 25. But the reason is because if they say they're going to do the five minutes and they do it, then we can feel good about ourselves and we can build. But when we're failing, and we are very harsh judges when we're failing, we think, I can't do it. And we get back to, oh, God, I mean, that guy does it all the time. Why can't I, you know, morning routine guru number seven somehow gets through all eight of these things every morning. And so that's another reason it's so important is, like, let's pick what we can do, be successful and build.

[A]

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[C]

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[A]

one of the things that we tend to focus on also when we're looking at doing something big or making a meaningful change, is we look at the habits that we have or that we don't have, or that we want to build to help us get there. And habits has become such a huge focus for so many people. Not that there's something wrong with actually examining your habits and building the structure around them, but you make an interesting argument that says, okay, so let's say habits matter. It's a part of the puzzle here. But before we build habits, we also have to look at values. We have to ask the question, what's worth wanting? Why do we need to start there?

[B]

Well, I have a lot to say about habits, and it's a term I've used in my own work on and off for years. And I have a couple things. One is we have. We all have a lot of habits, and a lot of them aren't really beneficial. They may not be bad, but they're not. A habit is something that happens automatically, and so we're entranced by the idea of our good behaviors happening automatically. That would be lovely, wouldn't it? I just never would have to try it wouldn't be hard ever again. I don't think that really happens, generally. Not with any behavior that's big enough to matter. But the other problem, the downside of habit, is that we just repeat it without really thinking much about it. Which means if you've thought about what's important to you and you've built your life around that, then some degree of momentum is really valuable. But if you've drifted off course to some degree and you've just got these background patterns running, that's problematic. And that's why, kind of going back to, like, what really matters to me, what do I want? This. The second chapter in the book is about this idea of values and desires. And that chapter almost broke me. It was my second chapter. I didn't know what I was doing. I ended up writing something like 60,000 words before that chapter got anywhere.

[A]

Answer the question. Right? Like what?

[B]

Yeah, like what?

[A]

I just want to be done with this chapter.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. I just. Because when you start looking around inside, there's a lot going on in here. You know, we are motivationally complex creatures. You know, I've done a podcast for years that say, like, we have two wolves inside of us, right? Feed the good one. But that is a radical oversimplification for what all happens inside of us. We want lots of things. Then you start. You start working with psychologists. You start rolling in words like needs and. And all. So I simply. I try to simplify it down. I try to say, okay, let's just kind of go to values and desires. Values are the things that we decide are worth wanting. Desires are what we just want. They just show up and we end up now. Then with that, we end up in with two kind of clashes. The first is the common, we all know desire. You know, I have a desire that's competing with a value. I want to be healthy, but I want to eat the. Or, you know, I want to be healthy, but I also want to eat this donut, right? That's a value to desire clash. And those are. Those take a lot of effort. The question I pose in the book, the thing I think that clarifies those and helps, is what do I want most versus what do I want now? So the harder problem, though, is values to values clashes. This is where it gets tricky, because you might value writing a work of fiction, while you might also value making a new table, while you might also value keeping the Good Life project going, right? Then it gets tricky because these are all things that are worth wanting, and we have to do some of the hard work of. Of being able to say, like, what. What am I actually capable of doing? You know, what I. In my coaching work, one of the things I used to do with people that in the beginning I thought, this is terrible. Like, I'm not doing a good job, was that I ended up like. We ended up. I felt like I was killing half their dreams. Right. But what we were doing was going like, okay, we can't do all of this. You can keep trying to do all of it, but it's not working. We have to pick, and we have to. And we also have to recognize that these conflicts, they exist. Right. Almost anybody who's a parent has a little bit of a. I value my career and I value my family, and those things are off. There's a degree of opposition in those, and all we can do is be cognizant of them as. As. As a tension that we're going to have to navigate and dance with.

[A]

We focus so much on habits. But, you know, you make this argument that says we really. Actually, there's a step before that, which is really asking the question, what. What's worth wanting? You know? And it's interesting because I do. I've seen values conflicts come up in my own life, and I've had so many conversations with people about this over the years, and one of the most common ones that I've seen is a value conflict between a value around financial stability and freedom of expression.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So someone's like, I want to provide for my family. I want to have money in the bank. I want to know I have a secure future, and I just want to be an artist. I want the freedom to just do the work that I want to do. I want to paint, I want to write. I want to do all of these things. And yet in my mind, I know that very few people are ever able to actually support themselves, let alone a family doing this thing. Right. These things, to me, are both worth wanting. They both make me feel a certain sense of aliveness and fullness and joy and meaning. Yet they seem to be in conflict. You know, it's thorny. Like, there's no easy, well, this is what you do to resolve that.

[B]

Yeah, I think you're right. There is no easy answer to this. It would be nice to not have to make a living at all, not have to worry about it, but that vanishingly few people have that at the same time, vanishingly few people do so well that they just don't even have to care. Like, they do so well at their Art that they don't even have to care. The vast majority of people were making trade offs. You know, we're making trade offs. There's, there's, you know, there's a lot of great artists over time, if you really look who, who continue to do, who continue to work like a normal job and do their art. I still, I've been doing the podcast full time for six years and I don't make remotely what I made as a software executive still. I make enough like I live. I mean, I have a good, I mean, I'm not saying like I'm, I'm a starving artist. I'm not. And I was at that stage in my career where they just start giving you stupid money. And I don't, that, that's not where I'm at. And I have my moments where I think, huh, was that the right choice now? It unquestionably was. I feel incredibly fortunate to be able to do what I do full time and the, and the freedom that it gives me. But there's a trade off. Right. I am valuing that freedom over financial success for sure. You know, it's definitely a trade off.

[A]

And I think sometimes we, those, it's, it's a dynamic trade off. Right. So like those are the things where we have to keep revisiting them over time.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And saying, do I still feel the way that I felt? And is the trade off is, is the decision that I made six months ago, a year ago, three years ago, five years ago? Is it still working for me? Have the circumstances of my life changed? Has my inner life changed in a way where it's still letting me experience life the way that I want to experience? Or is it time to make some changes?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Years ago, I interviewed a guy named Matthew Krosman, professor at Yale, teaches a class called I think it's called A Life Worth Living. And he said, this is basically the most frustrating class that these students will ever take because the entire class is questions with no answers. And probably the central question in the class was what's worth wanting?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he's like, we rarely ever visit that question, and the answer to it is going to change over time. We have a lot of people telling us what's worth wanting, and we often adopt what they tell us as the answer because it's just easier to accept that rather than to sit there and, and discern like, what actually for me in this moment in my life, what is worth wanting? And is it the same thing that I'm being told I should want? And those are often very different answers.

[B]

And we're so impressionable. I tell a story in the book one day of. I was in Atlant, when I was driving, I would go to. I would go to a library there to work. And I was driving through Buckhead in Atlanta, and there's a lot of trees in Buckhead, which is one notable thing about it. The other notable thing about it are there are enormous house after. Enormous house after. It just goes on and it goes on. And I'm talking, like, huge, huge houses to the point I'm like, how is this even possible? Like, who has this, you know, money? And so I find myself doing that drive. And that day, I'm starting to get the. What's wrong with me that I don't have that? The envy is starting to kick in. And at that moment, I paused and I listened to what was coming through the radio. And it was a band called the Gaslight Anthem. And they're a band that, you might say they. They head towards, like, a punk ethos kind of thing. And, you know, I was really into punk rock as a kid. And, you know, if it has an ethos that's about authenticity and about being yourself and doing what you want to do. And I just noticed that, like, here, within, like, 20 seconds of each other, I want this thing. And then I hear this. That reminds me, I want this thing. And if I were to go work in a software startup company all the time, my. My desires and what I want would be shaped by that environment were impressionable creatures. So, yeah, continuing to reflect on what do I want is really hard work. I love that idea. I love what that professor said. Like, there's no answers to this. We. I just got done doing a podcast with a guy before who kept sort of being like, well, what do you tell somebody? I'm like, I. I don't know what to tell. I have no answer. Like, you know, are they. Are they spending enough time with their family or are they spending too much time at work? Like, how would I possibly answer that question for another human being? But it sure would be nice if somebody would.

[A]

Yeah, we'd all love somebody else to tell us what the appropriate answer is for us in our lives at this moment in time.

[B]

A hundred percent.

[A]

But it just doesn't work that way.

[B]

You know, it does not.

[A]

You know, we have to sit with it, and often we have to sit with it for a long time, and. And it changes over time. Which brings up another thing that's sort of like one of the key Elements of your approach to change, which is the notion of self compassion. It's this idea that so many of us, especially if we get an idea in our head, we're like, we want to become this thing or accomplish this thing or change into this. Right. And we attach a sense of ego and identity to it. Especially if we have actually had some level of success in different domains of life before we've been able to do the thing or achieve the get the golden ring, whatever it may be. And then we look at this one domain where we really want to experience change. It's not coming easily. And we are hard on ourselves. We are just endlessly unkind to ourselves when it comes to us dropping into a change process and not just blinking and seeing it happen.

[B]

Yeah, I mean besides stopping abusing drugs, no change in my life has been more beneficial than learning to be kinder to myself. I mean it is far and away the best upgrade to my life I've ever given myself. Just because, right. We spent. Who do I spend the most time with? Me. You know, And I'm glad, you know, it's nice to not have an asshole in there all the time. So it's just good to do on and of its. In and of itself. But it's actually pretty critical to the change process also because as I said earlier, change is about learning. Particularly if you're not figuring out how to make the change. It's because something hasn't been figured out yet. I always would say to coaching clients, we are going to treat this like a puzzle. Puzzles have solutions. It may take us a while to figure it out, but it's a puzzle. But we have to be able to learn. And when we are really hard on ourselves, we don't learn. Right. We shut. We get. Because being hard on ourselves revs up our emotional system which just makes us not as capable of asking, well what went wrong there? What could I have done differently? It's mostly like, oh God, what's wrong with me? I'll never. I mean it. All the drama. I have this. I have a framework in the book about what happens when we get off track because everybody does. And I've got a little framework and one of them is called neutralize the emotional drama like when you get off track because it stops us from being able to learn. And so self compassion is really important in that way. Now a lot of people will say look, look, I've made a lot, I accomplished a lot by being hard on myself. And they're right because that really angry inner voice is a kind of fuel. But I heard somebody once say it's a dirty fuel. It burns dirty and it gunks up the engine. And my experience is I start seeing it in people in their 30s, 40s and 50s that maybe they got by doing that before, but it suddenly no longer works that being so hard on themselves. And it takes a lot of work to kind of unwind that. It's a, it is a thought pattern that gets pretty deeply embedded. But I do believe that thought patterns can change. The good news is they, they can change. The bad news is they take a while. It takes a pretty pronounced effort to like, unwind a thought pattern that's had its, you know, way of running for 30 years.

[A]

And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.

[D]

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[A]

it is wild, right? Because so many of us get to a point where we had had this script, you know, deepening neural grooves in our brain for decades, and then we become aware of it, and then we become aware of how it's limiting us and the way that we want to live and be in the world. And then we think, okay, now that I've, now that I've seen it, now I'm aware of it. I'm ascension being with a certain amount of ability and willpower. And now I should just be able to change this. I should be able to wake up tomorrow and regroup my brain and change my behavior and start just living differently in the world, not acknowledging that it took three decades to get there. Yeah, it's going to take a minute longer to actually change that.

[B]

Yeah, I actually have a method in the book that I think is. I mean, right. We've all, we've done so many of these podcasts, you and I, that we're all repeating things again and again. Right. Like we're being reminded of the things we need to know. But I do feel like I do offer something new in this area and it's something I call the still Point method because I started to think about, like, how do you change a thought pattern? You can't change it by thinking about it once a day. So what happens for most of us is we don't remember and we don't do it frequently. Enough. So the still point method is that we use the science of behavior change that has things called prompts or triggers. Like we get reminded to do something. So let's say you're working on being more patient. You could set an alarm on your phone to go off four times a day where you reflect on patience. Now, any one of those is invaluable, or any one of those has no value. It just doesn't even matter. But four of them a day starts to add up. So I'll give an example from my own life. I, when I, back when I still worked in the software business, every day, when I would walk from my house to my car, my car to my office and reverse route, I would do this little thing where I would just say, what are five things I can see right now? What are five things I can feel right now? What are five things that I can hear right now? Again, doing that one time, sure, it's lovely, right? Whatever, who cares? But doing that four times a day, five days a week, month after month, my ability to be present deepened tremendously. So what we need if we're going to change a thought pattern is to have it interrupted frequently enough that we can then do it. So again, another one could be, I have a still point. We actually have an app. So if you pre order the book, you can get this app that randomly does these. They do, they just sort of your phone dings at you and you, you do. The little still point. Like one is to ask our just to do it. And when it goes off, just ask ourselves for a second, like, what am I thinking? What am I feeling? Takes 10 seconds. But if we do that more often, we can eventually build to sort of the holy grail of these. And the holy grail is that you can capture, you can capture it when it's happening, you know. But if I'm asking myself five times a day what I'm thinking and feeling briefly, just seconds, it's more likely that when I start to spin out, I'm gonna catch it.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, and that lands as really practical to me. And it also gets to one of the things that you talk about, which is it's the notion of presence and sort of like the overlap of awareness and presence. The more we can be present in how we're actually showing up. And in those scripts that just run, whether they're emotional or thought scripts or behavioral generally, it's all the above. A big part is your ability to become present in the moment and aware of what's actually happening, rather than what you wish were happening or you're completely unaware of what's happening. Because we can't affect anything until we're aware of what's real and what's not real. So that's like, that's the foundation of change.

[B]

I feel like it really is. I mean, it is the foundation to be able to change things, particularly things that are habits in the bad sense. Like awareness is critically, critically important if we're trying to add new things. The good news is if we do the structural parts of change that we talked about well enough, we get ourselves to choice points, right? We get ourselves to the point where we know what the choice we want to make is. And then what we're able to do is we don't have to examine all of our life for like, what, what wrong. We don't need to hire a Jungian therapist for four years, right? We can zoom in and go in that moment that I, instead of getting on the exercise bike, I chose to continue to scroll Instagram, like, what was I thinking and feeling in that moment? So the structural actually brings us to a choice point where we can focus more easily on the emotional or thought pattern. And it's really practical in that way because otherwise what happens for a lot of us is we never get to the choice point, which means that we're vaguely procrastinating and we are looking at like, what is wrong with me globally, right? And if what we're trying to do is take a behavior that's not the moment to solve all our deep seated emotional problems, we don't have to. We just have to get skillful enough to talk to ourselves in a way that gets us over the hump.

[A]

If we zoom the lens out and we take a really big step back in time. You know, you look at your life now versus 25, 30 years ago, when you were deep in addiction, what feels most different to you Now I'll tell

[B]

you a story because it, it's a story that still, even after I've written it and told it, sort of astounds me. And you know, I had been, I had been picking them up for a couple months without even really thinking about it. I'd wait in line at the pharmacy. I get the little paper sack with a stapled prescription. I put them in the passenger seat of the car and I drive them to my mom's and I'd take them up and I'd give them to her. She had fallen. And what I'm talking about are opiates, oxycontin to be specific. Like the good stuff, right? 30 years ago, I might have robbed you at gunpoint for that. Thirty years ago, I was helpless. I destroyed my entire life to get what was sitting right there in the passenger seat. And I tell that story, not to brag or show off. I tell it to say, like, holy mackerel, we can really change. You know, we are really capable. You know, I would have thought, I'm an addict. I have an addict personality, right? Not really, because now I'm taking, you know, and so I. That is a. That is a sign to what, little by little, over a long period of time, achieved a completely different consciousness, One that doesn't even make sense to me because it took me a month before I even had the thought that I was doing it. That's how, you know, that's how. They were like a loaf of bread to me. I didn't think about them. And so that would be kind of what I would say. Zooming out is we are really capable of immense change. We really are. But it takes time.

[A]

Feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So I have asked you this question before. It was quite a while ago, so I'll ask it again because time has changed in this container of Good Life project. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up

[B]

Right now for me, I am really focusing on something that I learned early in recovery. And it's been in many ways what I've worked on all these years. And there's a line in the ABA book that says selfishness, self centeredness, that we think is the root of our problem. And that's a little bit of strong language. I get that. And yet I think it's still true for me that, that my life is best the less I focus on myself and the more I focus on the people and the world around me. And so to me, a good life is really one where the changes that I'm making make me better and happier, but also are good for the world and the other people in it. And a good life is where I figure out how to do both of those things.

[A]

Thank you. Hey, before you leave, don't miss next week's episode. I'll be talking with Arthur Brooks about the meaning of life and practical science backed ways to find purpose and discover your deepest calling. Be sure to follow the show wherever you get your podcast so you don't miss it. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields, editing, helped by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young Chris Carter crafted our theme music and of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life projects wherever you get your podcasts. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still here. Do me a personal favor, a seven second favor and share it with just one person. If you want to share it with more, hey, that's awesome. But just one person? Even then, invite them to talk with you about what you both discovered, to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter. Because that's how we all come live together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project.

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