FEED SWAP: Comes A Time: Pete Shapiro

Summary

GOOD OL' GRATEFUL DEADCAST

FEED SWAP: Comes A Time – Pete Shapiro

Release Date: September 1, 2022
Guests: Peter Shapiro with hosts Oteil Burbridge & Mike Finoia
Main theme: Music promoter Peter Shapiro discusses his journey from Deadhead to influential live music impresario, reflecting on the Grateful Dead's cultural impact, his book, and the alchemy of creating magical communal experiences.

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Episode Overview

This episode features a feed swap between the Good Ol’ Grateful Deadcast and the Comes A Time podcast. The spotlight is on Peter Shapiro: visionary live music promoter and author of The Music Never Stops: What Putting on 10,000 Shows Taught Me About Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Magic. Shapiro, interviewer and storyteller, shares his journey from a transformative Grateful Dead show experience to producing epic concerts, revitalizing venues like Wetlands and the Capitol Theatre, and keeping the communal spirit of live music alive. The conversation is rich with insights into serendipity, the invisible art of venue magic, and the relentless pursuit of creating memorable moments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Magic of Live Music & Venue Experience

• Attention to Detail Matters:
  Shapiro stresses that every small element counts—from security at the door to Christmas lights behind the bar, to the staff’s vibe.

  “Everything matters… your experience starts with getting to the venue, ticketing, security, the feel of the room. If any of those little things misses, it throws off the experience.” — Peter Shapiro [16:17]

• Fan-First Mentality:
  Shapiro keeps a fan’s sensibility in his work, striving to make venues feel like home and never letting the business aspects drain his passion.

  “He walks into his own venue as a fan…he's maintained that, not letting the business side just suck his soul till it was dry.” — Oteil Burbridge [11:52]

2. Serendipity & Sliding Doors: How Life Changes on a Dime

• Transformative Dead Show:
  Shapiro recounts a mystical experience at a Grateful Dead show in 1993 that pushed him onto his current path.

  “I went to a Dead show and my life changed.” — Peter Shapiro [18:51]

• Decisions & Forks in the Road:
  The discussion frequently returns to the notion of fate, sliding doors, and making choices that ripple through life’s trajectory.

  “The sliding doors…you make the train or you don’t. And then there’s two different stories. That happens to each of us almost every day.” — Peter Shapiro [29:09]

3. Creating & Maintaining Magical Spaces

• Balancing the Old & the New:
  Shapiro speaks to the power of stepping into established venues and infusing them with new life, as well as creating brand new experiences from scratch (e.g., Brooklyn Bowl).
• The Energy of a Room:
  Venues become temples or churches; the accumulated magic in a space raises the potential for transcendence.

  “The air is different in a room that’s done 10,000 shows. It makes it easier to get to magic if magic’s been in the room before.” — Peter Shapiro [52:10]

4. Mentorship, Legacy, and Passing the Baton

• Encouraging Young Promoters & Creatives:
  Shapiro shares practical advice: start small, pay attention to details, and don’t be afraid to learn by doing (even if at first it’s for a small audience).

  “What it takes to do Fare Thee Well is also true at a show with 100 people… the way to really learn how to do it is by doing it.” — Peter Shapiro [37:47]

• Living Like Jazz:
  The ethos of improvisation, embracing uncertainty, and keeping intentions clear threads throughout the discussion.

  “Everyone’s life has a bit of that jam…you can live your life that way. I do see myself maneuvering through different types of songs and moments” — Peter Shapiro [68:28]

5. Intention, Imperfection, and Magic

• Intentionality Above Perfection:
  Despite inevitable mistakes or imperfections, what shines through and becomes contagious is the purity of intent behind each show and experience.

  “Your intention is for it to be perfect—people can feel that…Let me just have my intention be full.” — Oteil Burbridge [56:09]

• No Mistaking Magic:
  The “pursuit of magic” isn’t about control; it’s about arranging as many elements as possible to let serendipity bloom.

  “You have to set it up right for magic—try to do as much as you can to increase the chances, but you can’t control it.” — Peter Shapiro [62:30]

6. Legacy, Memory, and the Power of a Single Night

• One Shot to Create History:
  Reflecting on events like Dead 50 and big festivals, Shapiro notes the significance of getting it right because those memories, good or ill, endure.

  “You only get one shot…you can’t go back and fix it. People will always remember that night.” — Peter Shapiro [58:55]

• Recharging Through Community:
  Live music offers a spiritual recharge akin to church, one that both artists and audiences crave and need regularly. The absence of this communal ritual during COVID made its centrality clearer than ever.

7. Personal Legacies and Gratitude

• Paying It Forward:
  Shapiro credits earlier mentors and emphasizes the importance of making the most of each sliding-door moment—leaning in when opportunity arises and passing the baton when possible.
• A Living Bill Graham:
  Oteil expresses gratitude for Shapiro’s work, likening his influence to that of iconic promoter Bill Graham for a new generation.

  “You’re my Bill Graham…Bill Graham is Bill and Bobby’s Bill Graham…you’re the world’s Peter Shapiro.” — Oteil Burbridge [69:20]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Passing the Torch:

  “Sometimes you do the Oteil baton, your own…Right, there's great feeling to lifting or being part of the baton and keeping that going. And then there's a great other feeling creating new music. Life is a little bit of that balance.”
  — Peter Shapiro [33:24]

• On the Contagious Energy in Venues:

  “The contagious energy that flows through the venues—the staff is happy. It translates.”
  — Mike Finoia [10:18]

• On Learning Through Doing:

  “The way to really learn to be a great musician is by playing.”
  — Peter Shapiro [38:16]

• On Intention & Audience Connection:

  “There's no difference between Trey and Professor Dumbledore in Harry Potter…I reached out to our audience, I opened my eyes and I went, it's them.”
  — Oteil Burbridge [47:34]

• On Community as Church:

  “Certain venues are temples, churches…you can see them just seeking the same divine magic feeling from their religion.”
  — Peter Shapiro [52:10, 54:01]

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Highlighted Topics with Timestamps

• Introduction to Peter Shapiro’s Book [09:24]
• Importance of Venue Vibe & Staff [10:16-12:01]
• The Fan Experience (Details Matter) [16:01-18:25]
• Shapiro’s Mystical Dead Show & Career Change [18:51-24:06]
• Sliding Doors, Serendipity, and Pathways [28:32-29:09]
• Passing The Baton & Mentorship [32:16-38:16]
• The Power of Intention in Performance [56:09-57:14]
• Creating Iconic Moments (Dead 50, Clifford Ball) [58:55-62:30]
• Venues as Church and Communal Space [52:08-54:30]
• Legacy & Bill Graham Comparison [69:20]

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Final Thoughts

The episode is a heartfelt, nuanced conversation about the invisible labor and visible magic of live music promotion. Peter Shapiro’s story intertwines practical wisdom, mystical accidents, creative intention, and gratitude—offering inspiration for anyone seeking meaning in their work or looking to bring people together. For Deadheads and the uninitiated alike, this is as much about the mystery of “catching the train” as it is about sound-and-light logistics. With an undercurrent of humility and love, it’s a masterclass in how to chase and sustain magic—one night, one decision, one glowing venue at a time.

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For more Comes A Time episodes & Peter Shapiro’s story:

• The Music Never Stops: What Putting on 10,000 Shows Taught Me About Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Magic (book by Peter Shapiro)
• Comes A Time Podcast on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

“Try to be a good person and just do the right thing and hold and eventually, hopefully, if you pay it forward enough, you know, you might get a shot at dead.” — Peter Shapiro [58:00]

Transcript

[Rich Mahan]

Announcing Dogfish Head Grateful Dead Juicy Pale Ale Collaborating for over a decade now, Dogfish Head and Grateful Dead have crafted a light bodied pale ale brewed with sustainable kerns of grains, granola and heaps of good karma for a refreshing brew that's music to your taste buds. Check out dogfish.com for more details and to find some Grateful Dead Juicy Pale Ale in your neck of the woods. Dogfish Headcraft Brewery is located in Milton, Delaware. Please drink responsibly.

[Peter Shapiro]

Foreign.

[Rich Mahan]

The Good Old Grateful Dead Cast the Official Podcast of the Grateful Dead I'm Rich Mahan with Jesse Jarno exploring the music and legacy of the Grateful Dead for the committed and the curious. Ladies and gentlemen, fellow Deadheads, welcome to Season six of the Good Old Grateful Dead cast. I'm your co host Rich Mahan. As always, thank you for tuning in. This week, the Dead cast swaps feeds with the Comes A Time podcast hosted by Dead & Co. Bassist Ottilie Burbridge and comedian Mike Fenoya, featuring their interview with promoter Peter Shapiro, the impresario behind Fare Thee well and the Capitol Theater. The Dead cast will be back next week with our next episode from season six. Hey, bop on over to dead.netdeadcast and check out all of our past episodes, including the complete seasons one through five. And you can link from there to all your favorite podcasting platforms so you can listen where you like to listen. Don't forget to check out the transcripts we have for many episodes of seasons one through five. Head over to dead.netdeadcast index and click the transcript link on the episode you'd like to explore. Thanks to everyone who's contributed their [e-mail] a fair amount of you made it into the podcast, so thanks very much for your input. And were you at any of the Madison Square garden shows in 1981, 82 or 83? Well, if you were, we need your stories. Head over to stories.dead.net and record yours today. Speaking of Madison Square Garden, there's a great new Grateful Dead boxed set headed our way in and out of the garden. Madison Square Garden 818283 it boasts 17 CDs from six previously unreleased concerts recorded live in New York City at the famed Madison Square Garden between 1981 and 83. Also available as a breakout show. Madison Square Garden New York, NY 3981 A 3 CD set featuring a full show from the box. Both titles are available September 23rd and are available for pre order now at dead.net there's so much going on in the Dead world Right now. We have a new Grateful Dead server on Discord. So download the Discord app on your mobile device or computer and then search for the public Grateful Dead server and click the Join button. There's a Deadcast channel there you can chat with fellow heads about the latest episode you just checked out, and Jesse and I pop in just about every day to see what's going on. So we'll see you over there. All of you musicians out there are going to love this one. Announcing Playing in the Band an interactive web based mixing board that allows you to jam with the Grateful Dead. You can mute any channel of your choice and fill in for any member of the Dead or press the Solo button on any channel to listen and learn or duet. We have five songs from the 82772 Veneto, Oregon show ready for you to explore and jam along [e-mail] playingintheband even those of you that aren't musicians, I guarantee you're gonna find this fascinating to hear the individual parts soloed by themselves. Check it out. Dead.net Playing in the band well, today we have a very special episode for you. It's an early release interview from the Comes a Time podcast. It's an interview podcast hosted by bassist Ottilie Burbridge and comedian Mike Fenoya, and many of you know Ottilie as the bass player for Dead and Company, Formerly with the Allman Brothers Band, the Aquarium Rescue Unit with Colonel Bruce Hampton. Stellar player Mike is a touring comedian and producer of the acclaimed television show Impractical Jokers. The name of the podcast, of course, is an homage to the Grateful Dead, so song of the same title. The two have a wonderful dynamic as co hosts and dear friends, and their conversations are unique. You won't hear the same questions that interviewees have heard a thousand times, and things tend to veer in unexpected but welcome directions wherever it goes. They have a knack for cutting through the surface, connecting deeply with guests, and bringing light into all of our lives. In addition to the love of music, Ottil and Mike have interests in meditation, psychedelics, spirituality, and social justice. Today's guest on Comes a Time is the one and only music entrepreneur Peter Shapiro, a visionary of many talents. You may know him as the owner and operator of the Brooklyn bowl venues, the legendary Capitol Theater and the wetlands preserve in its Day. In 2015, he produced Fare Thee well, celebrating 50 years of the Grateful Dead at Levi's Stadium in California and Chicago's Soldier Field. Most recently, he's published a book examining his personal journey entitled the Music Never Stops. What putting on 10,000 shows has taught Me about Life, liberty, and the pursuit of magic. Peter's a Deadhead and music fan through and through, and we're so grateful for the work he's done honoring the legacy of the dead. You can find the Comes a Time podcast on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts and also in video format on YouTube. On their feed, you can listen to past interviews with guests like Bob Weir, Paul Stamets, Bill Kreutzman, John Mayer, Mountain Girl, Billy Strings, Duncan Trussell, and some other guys you might have heard of. Me and Jesse and now Peter Shapiro.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Loyalty described as do you care? And I care and that's why I'm on this show.

[Peter Shapiro]

Comes the time.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Here we go. I'm a sucker for Oto and I saw that same feeling that I have.

[Peter Shapiro]

That would he filled a void that.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

I didn't even know existed.

[Peter Shapiro]

It feels so good too. As Ben said, to try to do something about an issue as opposed to complaining. If you can't help, don't hurt. If we could just all get out there and throw cream puffs at each other, maybe things with instead of bullets, angry words, it would be better.

[Rich Mahan]

When you stop laughing, you stop living.

[Peter Shapiro]

There's a worldwide surge in interest in mushrooms.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

It was deep, man.

[Peter Shapiro]

It's not that TM makes your mind quiet down there. It already is. We're just stuck up here.

[Mike Fenoya]

We've lost access.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

My Jumping Jack Flash came out by the Stones.

[Peter Shapiro]

So I thought, all right, perfect man. I'm a drive.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

And I started driving through the neighborhood and I got a text from Mick Jagger.

[Peter Shapiro]

People saying that, you know, what we do is non essential. Well, playing those few gigs that you saw me at felt pretty essential to me. It wasn't like they were clapping from here. It was. They were clapping from here. My view of things is that death, death is the last and best reward for a life well lived.

[Mike Fenoya]

Like you gotta it's the strangest of places if you look at it right.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

You know, if you're liking what you're hearing, head over to patreon.com comesatimepod and get your bus pass for an extra episode every week.

[Mike Fenoya]

Welcome back to another episode of Comes a Time that is otl and that.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

I'm guessing is Mike. I'll cover all.

[Mike Fenoya]

You're on top right now. I don't know.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Yeah, I think Eric is over here. Even though he's not on screen. That's what I have going on yeah, well, Pete was.

[Peter Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Mike Fenoya]

These blocks shift, but they're gonna move. So everyone's like, what the hell they keep pointing for? Because Eric fixes it all at the end.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Brady Bunch. We love the Brady Bunch.

[Peter Shapiro]

Yes.

[Mike Fenoya]

And B, Dave, she would look up.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

That's right. Hey, Mike.

[Mike Fenoya]

Hi, Ottil. Wait, wait, wait. Hang on. Here's what I could do.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Hi, ot. I asked Mike if he could. Like, his chair has this thing where you could just let it out.

[Peter Shapiro]

Here's his story.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

I was like, will you just let it go down? Just not when you're just randomly see. Who knows?

[Mike Fenoya]

Walk us through what it was like to have Brooklyn Bowl. Speaking of. So who do we have? We had the great Pete Shapiro on today.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Yes. Promoter extraordinaire, 25 year friend. God. Maybe longer.

[Mike Fenoya]

Yeah.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Wow. Started the wetlands. He has a new book out. The Music Never Stops. What? Putting on 10,000 shows has taught me about life, liberty, and the pursuit of magic. How could I love that title anymore? Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Magic.

[Mike Fenoya]

The Pursuit of magic is what it is, though. He's got the. I mean, it's a lot of work. I don't. I envy him. And I also don't because that's a lot of. Look, the hospitality business and that whole part of it, the I dotting and T crossing and ordering kegs and. Holy shit. I don't want anything to do with that. But, man, just the moments that he's facilitated for us both on either side of the stage to enjoy and to relish in and to. I mean, really, it's just.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

It's good for everybody.

[Mike Fenoya]

It really is. And you know what's funny, man? And it's. I wanted to, like, you know, you think of something to say when we're doing these podcasts, and it's like, you forget because it just goes. I wanted to say about, like. And if he's listening. The contagious energy, I think that flows through the venues because the staff is happy. The difference in even doing stand up at a club where the staff is happy versus not, it translates.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

I could tell if the owner is an asshole or not.

[Mike Fenoya]

Amen. Yes.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

And the reverse, I'm like, this owner is a really good person.

[Mike Fenoya]

You can tell that before you even meet the owner.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Every single person that works there has got that heart vibe. You're like, all right, dude.

[Mike Fenoya]

From the person who meets you when you go under the awning at the Cap, to, you know, the bar crew at Garcia's, to the security guy to the person in Coat Check, to, I Mean, you name it.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Everyone's like, he cares.

[Mike Fenoya]

Six inches off the ground. They're just kind of, you know, and it's. And you could tell they all are happy to be there and they care. And that comes from the apple. Doesn't fall too far from the tree, man.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

You know, so everything flows from the top of the mountain. Whatever's at top, that water is going to be like that at the bottom.

[Mike Fenoya]

And if you go to, if you go to a venue where everybody's stiff and angry, you're going to take. It's going to take a couple more songs for you to kind of loosen up and chill out. You know, you walk into the cap, it's like you're home somehow.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Well, he was able to keep that fan perspective. Like he walks into his own venue, his own show, as a fan.

[Peter Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Still. And so every little thing that sucks that he was at another show, I was like, well, this really sucks. I'm gonna make sure I don't do that at my show. You know, you just gotta be a fan. And he's. He's maintained that not letting the business side just suck his soul till it was dry. Like, he's kept it and God knows he's been through it.

[Mike Fenoya]

Yeah.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

On the business side, like, you know, you don't get out without your scars in any business, especially this one business. And this part is war. You're gonna get maimed, you may get killed, you're definitely gonna have your scars. And he's just. It's from that first show that he saw that he had that mystical magic experience that made his life just take a left. And he just kept following, chasing that magic like it says in the title. It's really cool. Really is a super fun conversation that flew by.

[Mike Fenoya]

Flew by for me.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Yeah, I know for you too. Like, yeah, this is.

[Mike Fenoya]

Yeah, it's wild. And it's just, you know, you think about dead 50 alone, that could be its own 10 part talk. You know what I mean?

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Alone.

[Mike Fenoya]

Oh, Jesus. Wetlands deserves its own podcast.

[Peter Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Mike Fenoya]

I mean, seriously, that's just the cab.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Yeah.

[Mike Fenoya]

Monumental Steps, Brooklyn Bowl. Brooklyn bowl or Bowls.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

You know, the Vegas one is.

[Mike Fenoya]

I mean, like. Yeah, Nashville. I mean, God, it's just.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Yeah. So many cool experiences. So you guys will enjoy this one.

[Mike Fenoya]

Yeah. Thank you, Pete.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Whether you know, this genre of music or not, there's a lot of beautiful life stuff in here.

[Mike Fenoya]

Yeah, no, absolutely. Yes. Very true.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

From.

[Mike Fenoya]

From moment one. And thank you again and thank you guys for listening. And we're here on Osiris Home to so many great podcasts. You can go to osirispod.com to learn more. Also, also, if you like what we're.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Just seeing if you're paying attention. I wish I could do it.

[Mike Fenoya]

What I wanted to try to do is to. I'm trying to loosen the microphone so I could go down too. If this could go up and I could go down at the same time.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

I'll let the mic go the opposite for you. Only listening to audio.

[Mike Fenoya]

Yeah, yeah, we're just having fun.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

It's a chair thing that can go down and up.

[Mike Fenoya]

It's the little things, folks. This is what you do on Zoom.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

We love you.

[Mike Fenoya]

Yeah, we love you. And come join [e-mail] comesatime pod for many more chair tricks like that. So thank you, everybody.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

That's repeat. I'm leaning into everything. We have a new motto which is six months.

[Mike Fenoya]

Six months.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

If I only had six months to live, what would I do? Right.

[Peter Shapiro]

All right. You wrote me that the other day. Yeah, that's a good.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Yeah, so it's like, that's good because life's hard.

[Peter Shapiro]

I won't get into it maybe on this, but, man, sometimes you wake up. Life's. I wake up. Just. It's hard. And so maybe actually the six month thing is a good way to go, but we'll talk about it.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Yeah, it's funny you say that, though. Well, we're already going to start.

[Peter Shapiro]

This is it. Oh, that's a great start. Then.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

We do intros later just so we can start. But it's funny you say that because I always think of you as like the most resilient person on earth, you and Derek Featherstone, but even you two guys, even though you're clearly wired for the crazy and curve balls, you're still human. Like, everybody has limits, you know?

[Peter Shapiro]

Well, part of that is I've just been through so much and I've had so many of these. A lot of what I do is dealing with just the problems, you know, when it be easy. When it's easy, it's easy.

[Mike Fenoya]

Right?

[Peter Shapiro]

You know, when it's going right, you don't have to fix those things. What gets to me is usually things that are going wrong or I spot things that are going wrong, and that's how you're good at. What I do is fixing the things that are not right to make sure it's all right, you know, And I actually have become a big believer just from doing so many shows that everything matters. Also, just in terms of your experience at the show. It's funny. We're doing this with you guys and Oteal, you're on stage, you know, during the show. But the people who are coming, like, they have a lot of points during the experience, you know, just like your jam does. Like, you show up at the. Getting to the venue.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Yes.

[Peter Shapiro]

It starts there, right? Or just coordinating the tickets. The friend, like one cool thing of the fear. Well, that's. That's when you're in the venue. Like, I'm still outside. I'm still outside, bro. You know, and how you get in and the line, the experience, being greeted at the front or not the box office, you know that. That's again, even when you're in. But what if you. You have a problem if you're waiting online to get in and the security to get in? I'm talking about the difference between being wanded, you know, a hand search. And now these new machines we've leaned into that are like. You just walk through it like an airplane. That's a better experience. You were even better than the airport, the Amal, the airport. You have to take things out of your pocket, you know, you gotta take your wallet out, your phone out, anything else, your vaporizer, anything, you gotta put it in the thing. But now we're using machines at the Capitol or at the Brooklyn Balls, all of them, where you just walk through and you keep that stuff in your pocket. Like that's better experience and that matters. So then you come in and then it's like, right? Then it's bathrooms, the bar line before the show started. Then it's sound, lights, crowd, sight line, all these things. And if one of those things breaks off, it doesn't go right. That can throw off, you know, throw you off. The whole experience gets thrown off. And so we try to focus on making all those parts right. And. And so. And so I just see it easily because I've been like, ott. I've grown up in it. So I see it inherently.

[Mike Fenoya]

Were you paying attention to this before your role? Like, when you were a ticket holder or if you were at a concert way back, you know, before you started, like, working in the. In the industry, did you notice that type of stuff? Like, just as a fan, like, would you look at a room and go, like, I like this room because of A, B and C, or I don't like this room because of X, Y and Z, you know, did you pay attention to that stuff? Was that just.

[Peter Shapiro]

Yeah, yeah. Good question. I took over Wetlands at 23. I'm 49, about 25th. So I've been doing it every night for like 26, 27 years. That's my marker from that point on. Yes, but that point previously when I went to shows when I was in high school or college. No, you know, I was just going. Yeah, I was an accidental person to be sitting here with you guys. You know, I had a moment where I just went to a particular, you know, grateful. It sounds like a trite. Like a movie, you know, I went to a Dead show and my life changed. But my story is that I went to a Dead show and my life changed. You know, In March of 93, Rosemont Horizon, Ken Nordine, spoken word. I was a Northwestern film student. I never saw that. I'd seen one Dead show in 92. I went and for the first. I was more into like Jane's Addiction in high school in that world and Lollapalooza. Not even a music head, more of a video head. Went to film school, but started listen a little over the Dead and went to this show they're doing spoken word with Ken Nordine and the effects. I think it was Dan Healy then, not our friend Derek Featherstone. But why I'm talking, you know, just. And I left the show. I swear, I don't know if you know this. I don't know without the phone how I felt. I just managed to be out in the parking lot. The next thing I knew. Before the show. It was just heavy for me. I swear. It was heavy. Yeah.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Mystical experience.

[Peter Shapiro]

Yes. I had a. And it was snowing outside, and I walked down. I was in the parking lot and there was drum circles and these kids were not going back to Northwestern. They were on the bus. They were literally the school buses, you know, And. And. And I just never seen anything like that. I grew up, you know, upper middle class, middle. Upper. Upper middle class kid. New York City private school. Like I'd never seen that, you know, and I still never seen that today. You know, I had a normal. No, no, that's not even around even you get a sense that that's. That's why with the fairly well going to size and what dedco now does, playing bigger shows, Shoreline parking lot, walking up to that. That's part of the experience, you know, at Alpine and Deer Creek, some of these places and the camping, that whole thing. I went that night. I went back to college. I don't know how I got back. Pre cell phone found my friends and we talk right where you want to be first in line to run to the rail on the GA shows, right. 8:00am People are there at 10:00am for certain shows. I was at doors of the library to research that next morning after the Rosen on Horizon show, like, whoa, what has been done? What is this? Like, what deals? No, I'm serious. And I went on the road six weeks later, eight weeks later, in a van with a video camera. It was 1993. You could have a video. It was really big, the camera. I got a kid who was a film student with me who owned the camera. We rented a van, we went on summer tour to kind of capture this spirit. This is almost 30 years ago, almost 29. First of all, we rented an all white van in Connelline Ford with no windows. And we learned pretty quickly. This is the style you learn. Life just like going through it. Well, I learned that when you show up at, you know, Auburn Hills Grateful Dead summer tour opener and you pull into the parking lot to make your documentary, it's probably not a great idea to be an all white van with no windows. They were like, dea, dea. And they're like, keep driving. You know, and we just want to film.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

You come back.

[Peter Shapiro]

Yeah. And then that. I make this film. By the way, the band wouldn't participate. You know, there's no interviews with the band in my film. It's called the go. It's on YouTube. But like I got Key and Leary and the kids and like I went to like 8 cities and Larry Black, who owned wetlands, saw the film and that led me directly. Then I did wetlands and that led to the bowl and the Capitol and everything is for me, I believe, like a path from that parking lot clear. If I don't have that experience, they don't do spoken word. That night I think I just watched the show and go back to Northwestern. I wasn't planning. I had no. The long answer to your question is pre me taking over Wetlands. I had no plan to be a concert promoter. Never.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

And this, this is the, this is the theme that I. Yeah, I love because in 93, I was with the Colonel. Right. Which, by the way, talk about this whole 30 year thing as Matt Mundy just played with Jimmy Herring. First time since 93. Right. It's just no plan. You have, you've just. You're like. Like I texted you. I was like, you're as much of a jazz musician as Herbie Hancock. You had a mystical experience and you went poof. Like, when I met the Colonel, I was like, okay, this is. I don't know what's going on here, but I'm gonna Go left with this and just do this all the way. And we both ended up here. That's so weird.

[Peter Shapiro]

The other day we were with Phil and It was his 79th birthday, and you know, he plays a lot at the Capitol, and we're like, we. We should figure out just he's coming back again, how many shows he's done, you know, And. And. And it was his 79th birthday, was on his 79th show at the Capitol Theater, and his birthday was at the Capitol. I'm just saying that's the ot, you know, that's the Grateful Dead. And you have to believe in that. It's. It's there because that's what we're all chasing or about, you know, is moments like that. Yeah.

[Mike Fenoya]

And the thing that's so amazing is that one spoken word moment sent you on a path that has provided so many pivotal moments to so many people throughout the course of who has seen a show at one of the venues, that it's changed their life and maybe they walked out and now they're on their path to their thing, you know, and it's.

[Peter Shapiro]

It's.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

And 50.

[Peter Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Mike Fenoya]

It just provides everybody.

[Peter Shapiro]

Right. Well, here's daycare if you really want to get a little heavy. So the Dead created this kid. Right from that moment, I was create, you know, and then I go to wetlands. I go do on this path. Then I go to the Bowl, I do the capital. I have this relationship with each of the guys because Bobby Weir came in, did the 10th anniversary wetlands. Mickey I met through that Phil in the Capitol. And so then they create this person who then becomes uniquely suited to put dead 50 together, which was because I had the relationship with Phil particularly. That helped when Fairly well, the dead 50 time came and it was like, how do we put these guys back together? I was in a unique place because I owned the Capitol Theater and had this relationship where Phil was coming to play. Otherwise, it's hard sometimes to reach. If you can't get someone to do something, if you can't reach them, you know, the dead 50, we can't reach, you know, but. But if the artist has to come play your venue. And that was accident. I didn't plan when I did this huge thing with Phil at the Cat. Just felt right. But there was no, oh, it'll be helpful when I'm trying to do dead 50, you know, and. And without Wetlands, you know, without. There's no wetlands without that Rosemont Horizon. I'm serious. Because it leads to the movie, leads to Wellings, leads to the Capitol leads to dead 50. And, well, here's a good moment when we did dead 50. We at the set breaks, we're like, we gotta do something cool. And I brought Justin Kreutzman on board. Like, who else? You know, with the films and the visuals. And we asked Neil Cassal to do the music. And that's where Circles around the Sun's first music. You know, we play that because. So we're putting together the imagery that'll go along and separate with the Circles around the sun music. And I tell Justin that I made this film in 93 on the summer tour. The band's not in it, but I have a lot of, like, parking lot stuff from the outside. I never could get inside. It's all outside. And Justin's like, well, wait, you know. And this is the filmmaker, great filmmaker, son of Bill Kreutzman, who's a similar age, maybe a couple years older. He's like, wait, summer 93. You know, I was way into video, too, and I had a video camera, and I was. But I never went outside in the lot. I just hung out backstage, you know, with Jerry, you know, I don't blame him, you know, And I'm like, wait a minute. Were you a Dear cre. We were at the same show. Pete Shapiro. This is a true story. Pete Shapiro. I was outside these two little video kids. Kreutzman, Justin is inside. And so when we were showing Circles around the sun, that was the audio. Soldier Field set break those huge screens. We were running visuals that were sort of going back and forth between my footage. Outside. Justin's inside, same show, particularly deer Creek, Summer 93. So isn't that cool? We were then shooting. We didn't know it, but we were prepping the filming for the video that would be used at how many years later. Wow.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

That's the mystical thing. You know, I hate to hijack. I want to talk about. Well, the book is all about the mystical thing, too. But I really want to highlight this because. Do you have this sense? Well, I'm pretty sure you do, because you know about Ingo Swann and all this stuff.

[Peter Shapiro]

Yep.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Like you said, if I hadn't done this and this wouldn't have done that. And, you know, when I look back on things to how I got here, like, if you start there and you get to here, it seems beyond impossible. But when you look back. Back on every little thing, it seems, like totally orchestrated, you know, it's really.

[Rich Mahan]

Amazing how it feels to me.

[Peter Shapiro]

I'm like, I'm there with you. I mean, I don't know if people. You know, it's sliding doors a little bit. That phrase. I don't know if you know it, which is the doors of the train. And you either get on, you make the train, or you don't make the train.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

And it all.

[Peter Shapiro]

Yeah. And it all goes from there. And then there's a movie that is. One part of the movie is if the person makes the train, and the other part is if you don't make the train, how your life goes. You know, there's two different stories that happens to each of us probably every day, you know, and I've actually tried when there's forks in the road at, like, difficult moments, you know, when Relics. I had the opportunity to take over Relics. It was 2008, 2009. Like, the world was falling apart then, you know, and magazines were closing and, like. But I had this amazing, unique opportunity to take over rail, you know, and I leaned into it. Even though people like, what are you doing? You know, taking over Wetlands. I was 23. People are like, what are you doing? I knew I had to run a lot, you know, but that's, you know, you just like the whole, you know, the Capitol Theater, you know, had been closed for a long time. It's like when I, you know, it's. Yes, it's amazing now to look back, but it was Portchester, New York. It's been closed. I've just chosen to lean into, you know, some of those. Which route do you take? The sliding door. You know, when I can control and it's a little risky, you know, I try to just lean into, like, you know what? I should do this. I also love things that are, like taking. There's two different ways to do a venue. One or anything, you know, is taking over an existing thing and trying to lift that wetlands was an existing thing. Larry Block had created it, but he was done and wanted, you know, taking the baton of something Relics. The Capitol Theater is a certain path, and then a different path is creating something new, you know, like the. The Brooklyn bowl stuff or creating Lock in, you know, from zero nothing, you know, OT's band. I do these kids show, the Rock and Roll Playhouse. Those are things that I've created and done from nothing or a film project, you know, and then sometimes I'm taking some amazing place. I just took over in New York, and I can't wait OT for you to see it. But I took over the Jazz Standard space, which is a great. Yeah. On 27 great jazz club in New York. And we give it its own name, Jazzlands, like wetlands. And I'm gonna have a jazz club, by the way, for you, buddy.

[Mike Fenoya]

So cool, man.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

I can come in there and play.

[Peter Shapiro]

Yeah, I got a jazz club for you. And that'll be different. Right. So a part of it for me is. And there's no big plan I've never had, like, oh, I want to end up with it. Like Ottilie said, I go, I just feel it out, you know, Listening fairly well was kind of supposed to be an ending, and it became a new beginning. It did. It created what Otis did. It really was so in anything, you don't really know. And so much changes so fast, and opportunities come, and you just kind of like, you do your best to hold on and make the best decisions.

[Mike Fenoya]

Well, even take a think about, like, jrad, which was born out of the bowl, and it was just supposed to be like. And look at the life that that took on, and it's just become its own thing. And that was born out of the bowl, and it was just supposed to be a quick, fun thing. And it's, you know, one of the greatest things going, you know, so that's contagious.

[Peter Shapiro]

It's like, yeah, Joe, that's a credit to the band. Right? They won that. That was, you know, and you never know when you just try something where it'll go. I'm sure when Oto got the first call getting co. You know, maybe that's a year, you know, maybe it'll go on and on. And life is.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

It's hard, you know, for the Allman Brothers. I thought it was. I was like, oh, this stuff's melting down. It'll. Let's just get a good summer out of it, you know, some bread for a summer 17 years later, like. And that to me is also like, you know, helping continue someone else's thing, like taking a baton.

[Mike Fenoya]

Yeah.

[Peter Shapiro]

By the way, you've done that well now. You. You. You've done that well music really well musically. Look what you've done. But you have different elements. You. You doing some of that, continuing the baton. And then you've got. Sometimes you do the Oto baton, your own.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Do some nice.

[Peter Shapiro]

Some kind of. Where. Yeah. And right. There's great feeling to lifting or being a part of the baton and keeping that going. And then there's a great other feeling that is creating new music, you know, and life is a little bit of. That's a great balance we're each able to have, you know, But I'm not. I didn't create the Capitol Theater, you know, or, you know, But I've tried to take it and lift it, and I try to make sure that all parts of that pie of your experience at the Cap. It's frustrating when you're, like, not at a show but responsible for it, and things go wrong and you hear about it from someone who's at the show or even if you're at. And so I'm responsible. That's where that tagline on the book is. We figured out doing the book that I had put on 10,000 shows. And, like, I haven't been to every one of those. Oh, yeah, I've done 10,000, every single one. But if something went wrong at any of those 10,000, I get the phone call. Yeah. You know, something goes wrong. Yeah.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

So thinking about it. Because you give a crap, you know?

[Peter Shapiro]

Right, Right. So if I get the call from someone, a friend of mine, like I was in Vegas as a Nashville, this went wrong in my experience. Right. At the box office, at the bathroom, or just doing the show or the air like that. And I say, so. But I wasn't even maybe there, you know, But I'm responsible for it. It's my teeth. And so that's just a whole way of living where if you're a, you know, neurotic like I am, and I think probably we all are about our individual things. OTL about his playing. You want it all to be right.

[Mike Fenoya]

Right.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Well, I'm starting to think maybe we need to be neurotic a little bit. You know? I have a friend, Brian Spizer. He's a sound man with Tedeschi Trucks Band. He says I'm just OCD enough for it to be useful.

[Mike Fenoya]

Yeah.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

And I think, like, if we're not neurotic, we're not. Like, my music is not, like, what it is.

[Peter Shapiro]

And a little add, too.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

ADHD a lot for me. And for improv, ADD is good. It's like, oh, this is cool. What about this? You know?

[Mike Fenoya]

Yeah, let it go. Leave it. Yeah.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Like, I have a scene where people want me to hold a groove down for a long time, get in that groove. And I love funk. I love a groove. But, man, my mind is adding, so I just let it go. I'm like, okay, I did that for 32 bars. Let me switch it to this. I'll hold it. And then I switch and let my ADD build this. You know, it's like, let's use these things that are bad. It's like, are they really only if. Or maybe if they just get too unbalanced and out of hand.

[Mike Fenoya]

Yeah.

[Peter Shapiro]

I definitely think it's a. It's a tool, you know, and if you can play or it's an instrument ad, you know, the adhd, if you can figure out a life that leverage, you know, like, you have your instrument and a bit. I'm playing an instrument, doing what I do. There's no question that I've been able to do what I do with so many different kind of businesses, because my brain goes there naturally, all over the place.

[Mike Fenoya]

Have you found that in that whole passing the baton, you know, theme? Have you found, like, younger or, like, entrepreneurial folks, like, coming to you kind of from a. Starting a business or running a venue standpoint, like asking you for advice or, like a mentorship in any way?

[Peter Shapiro]

Yeah, yeah, I definitely. Well, two things. One, I stepped into a unique. Luckily, I spotted it. Part of the sliding doors life is also like knowing when you get on. Get on the train. Yeah. Or not. I didn't mean to. That wetlands thing, you know, that doesn't come around a lot. I would say that you can put on a lot of. What it takes to do fairly well is also true at a show with 100 people, whether it's 100, 1,000, 10,000, 50,000, you have to book a venue or you have to book a band and book a band and then put the show on sale and announce the show and market the show and then do the show with the box office and the venue and the experience for the customer being positive. Like, we talked about all the parts, and that's true at 100 or 50,000. They're both true. So anyone out there who's in college. I did my first one, Evanston Street Block Party. You know, it's a great time to start, you know, in college, whether you're in Lawrence, Kansas, or Boston or any city, Gainesville, you can. I think you can get a lot of value out just renting the local bar, having your local friend, you know, cover band or band play and you. Because the way to really learn how to do it is by doing it.

[Mike Fenoya]

Right.

[Peter Shapiro]

The way to really learn to be a great musician is by playing. Yeah. You know.

[Mike Fenoya]

Yeah. Just get up and bomb until you learn how to be funny.

[Peter Shapiro]

Right. Isn't it, like doing it and now I can feel it. It's part of my instincts, like, when I go into it, just because I've done it a lot and I think people can go, by the way, pay attention when you're at the show. Like we talked about things you See that you like, that you don't like. Little things will matter like it fairly well. One of the best things we did was to put the security staff at Soldier Field in tie dyed shirts. We still had the number there for sure. Yeah, we had all the security work. Now that change the vibe of the room added a touch of uplifting vibe versus big security shirt tie dye. We got them to do it and that changed. I don't know if at Broken bowl it always says welcome on the back of the shirt. Not security or staff and little things. Little things like that. Yeah, Jedi stuff is like, here's one that anyone can afford listening or watching, you know, anyone. And this is a challenge. The first year I took over wetlands, like 96 that holiday or 97 that, that Chris. We had Christmas lights behind the bar for the holiday. And then I came in probably in January, a few days after New Year's and the Christmas lights were down. And it was incredible to see the difference in energy, the energy that was lost with the Christmas lights gone. You know, all the colors just by just that simple hanging Christmas lights lifted the room, the whole energy. We took them down, it was just darker. I was like, we gotta put the Christmas lights back. And if you notice at any Broken bowl anywhere in my venue, there's always those Christmas lights now at the bar. Always. By the way, anyone, those. You can go to Walmart or Target or wherever or online, wherever you wanna do it. It's 50 bucks for the whole bar. Yeah, 50 bucks for the whole bar. And that will add a dimension like Ortiz garment. Like that's how you can do something simple that has a lot of impact.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Some recording studios I know, like people's homes that they have those Christmas lights or the, the red pepper, the hot pepper lights, anything. Sometimes they go. But it just adds a. It adds a thing to it. But, you know, I remember talking to Burt Holman, the manager of the Allman Brothers. Going back to what you were saying about the size, it being the same for 100,000, 10,000, 50,000, he started. I asked him, how'd you get started booking the Allman Brothers? He said, when I was in college, I think he was at American University in D.C. and there was basically a joke job for someone to like do the music. And he was like, you know, I'll do it. They're like, all right, you're up. You know, so he's like, great. I got this budget, I got a plate, I got a venue, I got all these things. I'm going to bring the Allman Brothers bands. And they were cheap back then.

[Peter Shapiro]

Yep.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Right. So he brought in his favorite. He brought the almonds. And. And he. And it's the same thing you said. Doing what back then was definitely a much littler show. All the pieces were in place. And so when it came time to manage the almond. But he's like, I've been doing it since college.

[Peter Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Mike Fenoya]

And you just scale. You just move the scale.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

I mean, he did work for John Sher in between, but, you know, it started.

[Peter Shapiro]

That's right. I was at Northwestern. I did the concert committee. Same thing.

[Mike Fenoya]

Concert committee.

[Peter Shapiro]

Yeah. The card scan. Anyone? I encourage that. College. A great time when you're in school. Let's just say great time. Like I. Some kids will say, I'm gonna quit school. I just want to do this. I want to play. You know, I always say, stay in school and do this on the side, you know, whatever. Whether it's the playing, whether it's that you want to produce, promote, like, or keep your day job, you know, and. And I. Or leave at home. Like, I chose after college, I felt, you know, when I took over, wetlands at first and I did these. I was doing an internship to learn, you know, at a rate, you know, at wnyc and then did New Line Cinema. And I stayed at home after college. I lived in my old room just because that bought me more time to get to do that kind of stuff and learn. Versus if I was like, you know what? I'm gonna. I need my own apartment. But then you gotta make money, you know, you have to bar. So everyone has to make the right decision for themselves. But I encourage young people. Like, if you can stay at home for a little while and you're done, like, I, you know, at least this is one person's opinion, is do that because then you don't have to pay the rent. It's just easier for you to end up spending some time putting on a concert or becoming a musician or this. Or if you have a day job, keep the day job and do this on the side for as long. You know, it just takes pressure away. Versus I gotta. I wanna be a musician, but I just quit my job and I'm going on tour and I have to make, you know, so as much as you can.

[Mike Fenoya]

I think that that's such a giant point that I wish I've been thinking about. Like, notes to a younger me. Remember Ottil, we were talking about that. Like, just if I could go back and, you know, patience is something that I don't think we were really taught it was like, grow up as fast as possible. Like, get out, go do your thing. Like, I never really had tell me anything either. Exactly, exactly. So it was just this kind of like, hurry up and just get out and start your thing and be your. You know, and keeping the day job and stuff. You know, it's funny. Like, with standup, you kind of like, hear this thing. Like, when did you start doing it full time? Which means when did you stop doing a day job and make your night gig pet? You know, and, you know, all of us for the first eight, 10 years or whatever, you'd get whatever job you can get, work from home or whatever you want to call it to give you the freedom to follow your night dream and stuff like that. But it's harder than when you're working. You have to show up and rub last night out of your eyes kind of and keep this gig so you can feed the night beast a little bit, you know, and that's something that. Those are the valuable lessons that when.

[Peter Shapiro]

It'S hard, being a human's hard. Back to the neurotic. If you're good at what we all want to try to do, Comedy, music, promoting, you know, you're neurotic, you know, that add's good. We figured out being neurotic and just waking up. I'm like, I still am. Like, I. Because right back to, like, if everything matters, the d. If all the details matter.

[Mike Fenoya]

Yeah.

[Peter Shapiro]

And back to play. Like, you know, how you. If you're off on a note, it matters. Like if the bathroom lights off it. Matt. So if all the details matter, which we all agree they do, then it never can be just easy because you got to manage all the. It can get easier.

[Mike Fenoya]

And it's so funny to think about the world we come from that, like, imperfect is perfect. You know what I mean? Like, the dead never went out to play the same exact perfect every night. Like, it was okay that there's mistakes.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

But that's what I was gonna say before. It's like our whole culture is like, counter to this dead thing. So, like, we enjoy our lives. I don't even want to say success or anything, because we're like, okay, well, when someone goes, what the hell are you doing? Then that's almost like a signal for us. Like, ah, maybe I'm on the right track here, you know, because it's just like opposite world.

[Peter Shapiro]

Yeah. I mean, that's the music. That's why we're friends, you know, we like it similar. Honestly.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

That's right. Yeah, yeah, totally.

[Peter Shapiro]

That's what we were all. That's why the dad. You know, it didn't always work. You've been up there and you know when it's not working, and then when it kicks in, you can feel that energy off the crowd when it's working. They kick it back to you. You feel it, and you're kicking it back to them. Right. I think I sent you that picture where I like being in the back. That night, I left the show in 93 at Rosemont Horizon. And before I went into the parking lot, I walked the arena and went up. I like going to the very top back. I like that because you can feel the energy. And though I was at Wrigley Field for Deadco and went up and got a nice picture, I think I. And I think it shows. And you know who's amazing at this, really? You could see the energy of the musicianship come off the guitar into the crowd and back to him. And sometimes I see it is Trey for me. He leans into the audience. He's at the ledge, and you can see him. He holds some. Yeah, you see this. He's kicking it out to the crowd. And if you're up high enough, I swear, I believe that. And you see the energy. I can see the circle. Maybe it helps wherever your headspace is. But you can see the energy coming off of him, into the crowd and back to him.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Yes. There's no difference.

[Peter Shapiro]

Taking it back.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Yeah, that's no difference between him and Professor Dumbledore in Harry Potter. I saw it one night when I was tripping really hard at Fenway. Second night of Fenway. And I would play and I would just. I would lean into it. And I swear, you know, because I thought I was tripping, that I could see it go and do what you're talking about all the way to the back and come back. And I was like, whoa. So then I started toying with it, and it happened every time. And I was like, this is crazy. But the first thing that happened was I was. I had my eyes closed and I could feel everybody in the band. Like I was an octopus and I had a tentacle touching each person. I was like, wow, this is cool. And then all of a sudden, I was like, wow, something else here. Like, really huge. Who am I? And I reached out towards. In my mind, I reached out to our audience, and I opened my eyes and I went, it's them. And this dude looked at me and.

[Mike Fenoya]

He was like, yeah.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Like, I swear he knew. And then I went and the whole thing went like that. And I just looked at my wife like, this is.

[Peter Shapiro]

I know we're talking about the same thing. Yeah. I'm just talking about being from the audience to see that if you're up high of it, you. And you were looking down, you could probably see the energy field. Come on. If you were in the right headspace linked into you, you could see the energy coming off your bait and then seeing the whoosh, you know. Oh, I bet if you're up there, you would see that. Yeah. I'm not kidding. I believe that. You know, 100, I think. And yeah, that's, that's. We need that said. I think you need that stuff today more than ever because the world's so crazy. Yeah. Otherwise, the day to day, you know, you need those moments. By the way, I get tired of doing what I'm doing. Like the daytime part's not that fun. Dealing with the problem, you know, they, you know. But then you go to a show.

[Mike Fenoya]

Yeah.

[Peter Shapiro]

You know, and it works for me. It's like Colonel Bruce maybe touched me because it works every time. Pretty much going to see live, you know, I get re. Energized from the show and then I'm like, it's back to a circle. Like, okay, now I'm ready to go back during the day and be able to take it apart. Yeah, I can take it again. And I actually have a chapter in the book called 72 Hours or something. And a nod to Dean Budnick, who helped me write all this, wrote it. That live show energy lasts for me about 72 hours, where then I can do it again. I'm pushing, learning to go, but it'll fade off. I'll need it again. I need that fix.

[Mike Fenoya]

I'm like, battery needs a charge.

[Peter Shapiro]

Yeah. Yes, by the way. Yes, I do. It lasts, you know, it's. It's amazing. After an amazing night or two, like you wake up the next morning, you know, and you, you have a glow. Yeah. You feel great, but a few days later you're like back. I need that to get through the hard, long slogging day.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

That's why people go back to church on Sunday because it wears off. You get the music recharge you get. You know, it's like we need that. We need the refreshing. It's just like drinking water, you know, you can't drink water once and you're good for the rest of your life.

[Mike Fenoya]

That's one of the things that we're so. For those of us that go to concerts, for those of Us that go to concerts, that need that recharge. I think that's what, you know, Covid was hard enough, but then to not be able to, you know, that was our community, that was our church. That was our going to the. You know, no matter what. It was like, not being able to do that for two years is like, what the. Like, what do I do? Like, how do I thank God for the fact that we can, like, go and listen to live shows or set six feet apart in the backyard for a year and a half? But, man, it was just that. That part was just to not be able to go to a concert. J rat it wet Westville was the first thing I saw after. And I was just crying, man. It was just like everyone was looking at. It was pouring rain, and it was just like, man, thank God we're able to do this again. Because that was just.

[Peter Shapiro]

I think I may have been at that. I have a good church story because I saw it firsthand just how these venues sometimes certain, you know, they've got, you know, certain venues are temples, churches, temples.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Tip of Tinas so away.

[Peter Shapiro]

Yeah, the tips of the worlds are temples because, well, you can't just have a brand new room or a hotel ball, you know, like, you know, the difference between a room that's done the 10,000 shows. The air's different, right? In a room. It is. The air is tips. It makes it easier for an OTL to come in and get to match. I believe, if there's been magic in the room before.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

For sure, for sure.

[Peter Shapiro]

Okay, so wetlands. Like we went on a weekend. This is back in the 90s. Like, have Saturday day would be a scotch show, and we'd have 7,800 kids come in with the dress of a Scott kid. The white shirts, you know, the black suspenders. And then Friday, Saturday night, maybe we'd do a jam. You know, our world. Grateful Dead jam. World. Two sets. Mo would play or something, you know, and you'd see people coming in to get to this in the same building on the same day in the same church, just seeking the same divine magic feeling from their religion. The religion was just slightly different. The pastor was slightly different. Yeah, it was gone today. Jam at night, now the next morning, Sunday morning. Agnostic Front, hardcore. Seeing the 800 kids come in, they just look different, you know. And then that night, we'd have the Roots. We did a residency on Sunday nights with the Roots way back in Black Lily, with all black women singing. But the Roots were the band. So we'd have four shows on Saturday and Sunday in, like, 36 hours, all so you could really see each one of those shows. At the Mo show, the kids all looked like the people, you know, at a Dead show, you know, and that has a look, right? And the hip hop kids, you know, had its own look and. But they're all seeking the same thing.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Yeah.

[Peter Shapiro]

And in the same place. It was amazing. You could see them come in and out, and just the new people showing up would just be dressed the same look a little the same, I swear, the same uniform. But they were seeking to get to the same place, seeking that spirituality. And it was cool because you could. We definitely were like, this is a temple. This is a church.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

It is, man. It was.

[Mike Fenoya]

You know, it's funny, Eric, our producer, reminded me right before we did this that it's the anniversary of Clifford Ball today and, you know, Fish's first festival. And I was 16 going to that. And that was a life changer where it was like, I could see, you know, we drive up to the middle of nowhere, and I get out and there's me and my four buddies. So the five of us.

[Peter Shapiro]

And I'm like, is it 25 years? Is it 25 years? Nine years. It's gotta be, right?

[Mike Fenoya]

So is it 26 years? 20. Yeah, 25. 26 years. Yeah. But I'm, like, looking and I'm like, oh, wow, that's the Syracuse version of us. Or that's the Boston version of us. That's the. So there's a whole bunch of us. Like, it's not just us. Like. Cause you know your four walls when you're 16, you know your town, you know, you're. You know. But then you get up here and you're like, this band turned this air, like, Air Force base into, like, Narnia for.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

I mean, literally transformed it.

[Mike Fenoya]

Transformed it. And for three, it was like, I left there, look. Always chasing that spiritual, like you're talking about, Pete, where it's like that I. They gave me the realization, like, oh, shit, this exists. Like, my happiness is a place where I can go beyond. Just blown away by incredible music by people who give a shit about the details. And that made it just so incredible. Like, from that point on, it was like, all right, now I know what I'm looking for.

[Peter Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

That's where the intention comes into. Colonel always talked about intention. Like, the intention, Pete, that you care. That you still come to this show with the glasses of a fan on.

[Peter Shapiro]

Right?

[Ottilie Burbridge]

And even if it's not perfect, because your intention is for it to be perfect. People can feel that. So that's why I go to now I'm like, okay, it cannot be perfect. Let me just have my intention just be full that, you know.

[Mike Fenoya]

Yeah.

[Peter Shapiro]

Nancy, good. You speak like a great parent. Right. It's kind of like it's beyond music. It's just about how to live your life, you know. That's a really good point. Way you just said that. You know, it's if your intention is right. And this is again so relevant right now, when you look at what's going on in the world and what we see. By the way, some of what I've done and the way fairly well got, you know, I don't know if you could do it today the same way, just because it's the stuff in the world. It was 2015, it was pre Trump and the world's different, I think. And pre Covid, by the way, you didn't have all the TikTok. I mean, it was starting to be Internet when we started Brooklyn Ball in 09. Like there was just less. You couldn't stay at home and just watch streaming. That didn't exist.

[Mike Fenoya]

No.

[Peter Shapiro]

You know, there was no clay. And I went for a day football, by the way. I was good, by the way. Credit to those guys. You talked about, like taking good energy and doing it 100 people, 1050. I mean, they skipped the line and went to so big. They did hold it. You know, it's risky. They did it and you're right. But if you keep your intention positive in whatever you do, that's the most important thing. And then just there's a great quote from Gary Players, a famous legendary golf player. He goes, you know, it's funny, the more I practice, the luckier I seem to get.

[Mike Fenoya]

That's awesome.

[Peter Shapiro]

That's awesome. It's kind of similar to like, try to be a good person and just do the right thing and hold and eventually, hopefully, if you pay it forward enough, you know, you might get a shot at dead. But you have to try. Like I tried to dead 40. I didn't get it, but I came back and I say something that's in the book. A lot of no's can be good, you know, to get to a yes, you sometimes need no's first.

[Mike Fenoya]

Oh, God. Yeah.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

I don't know why, but sometimes when a closed door, we should just accept it. Like you say you wanted to do Grateful Dead 40.

[Peter Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

But something took. It's like a plant. You can't force it to sprout. And it took those 10 years. And maybe you can look back and say, thank God. Because Grateful Dead 50, dude, Rainbow and all that was just. You sewed that thing up with a bow. It was like, what?

[Peter Shapiro]

I'm lucky because I knew going into dead 50, it's kind of like fish going in for Clifford Ball. You just. The scale's so big. Another thing I've learned is like, what's scary about these things is you only get one shot, right? If something had gone wrong at Clifford ball or dead 50, like once the weekend's over, like you can't go back and fix it. Someone's memory is. And that's one nice thing. Like after a great show, the nice feeling. Even the night of like when people go home and they hope everyone goes home. It's like that's in the books. Like, people will always remember that night as being incredible special. Nothing can change it.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Like, you remember that night that got you.

[Peter Shapiro]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That and nights we've done, let's say an Ottilen Friend show at the Cat. It's like that magic show. Like people that you can't change it. So by going into dead 50, it's like if something had gone wrong, you know, there was a. A storm that came on July 6th, that Monday after the three day weekend at Soldier Field in Chicago. There was lightning and rain and I remember talking to Mountain Girl and she said, yeah, that's Jerry's crying tears of joy. Which was intense to hear from it. But I also knew if that rain from Monday had been just the night before the last night. And if you. And you've been there ottil like, and you guys know when there's lightning or this and you have to pause the show or leave, you had that happen. Like, that would have been a different experience for people, right? If they're even the rainbow, of course. Hat. But if that. But even just the weather, I believe in Chicago, I'm not kidding whether that is a big difference. Because if you have perfect weather, which we had, you know, everything goes right. A lot of them. Because those. Those details waiting online a little or going through security, waiting for a meal. But if it's 75 degrees, no humidity, you're happy waiting on like no problem. Hell yeah. Loading. Guys, the unity, the stage hands, they're all in a good mood, dude. You know AJ's in the. Yeah, you know, that's a good one, right? You just go on the AJ barometer. But if it's 100 degrees, humid or raining, you know, the grumpy things get delayed it gets harder. Everything gets harder.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

It's like dominoes.

[Mike Fenoya]

Yeah.

[Peter Shapiro]

I really think of it. Like, I believe the weather made a difference.

[Mike Fenoya]

Soldier Field, that's such a huge venue. It somehow had a feeling of a smaller.

[Peter Shapiro]

I gotta show you. We have to interrupt one thing. Simon. Oh, no. Put the helmet. You can show him. Come on. Go get that helmet back on. He. This is. Makes a good goalie. Hell, watch this. This kid, 12 years old, back from camp. Put it on. Show him what you're doing to go. He's going to play some goalie in the house.

[Mike Fenoya]

Wow.

[Peter Shapiro]

We got a goalie hunt. Pretty cool, man. Go lower. Show.

[Mike Fenoya]

That's awesome, man.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

I like it.

[Mike Fenoya]

Walking into soldier field for dead 52 and it was like about the small details and the stuff that was so neat about it. Like when you walked right in and you got to the landing, there were those massive picture of Jerry surrounded by roses. And it became this thing where everybody kind of met and took pictures at in front of. And we were running into people that we didn't even know were there because of it. So it kind of became this sort of like meeting point or like a beacon or something. We were like, oh, damn. This is the coolest thing in the world. It didn't have to be there, but it was like such a perfect detail that it just kind of.

[Peter Shapiro]

Yeah, you got it set. We've talked about this magic stuff, but. And that's why that quote. You have to set it up right for magic to increase the chances for magic to happen. You know, there's no rainbow if you're not in Santa Clara during the show. Like, and when you do it, you need to try to do as much as you can. Convince control. Can't control it. Yeah. And if you can't control something that goes wrong, you got to fix it back to that. But you want to increase. Like we gave a rose to everyone who walked in. Like we put these security guys in the tie dyed shirts. You know, you do the Christmas lights behind the bar to elevate the energy, you know?

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Yeah.

[Peter Shapiro]

And you just try to put as much in place. You know, you need to do the giant frame cherry with row and spend the money, by the way. But to do something things better costs more. Sure. Right. O.J. knows about that. Like suddenly you're playing gigs. You want an extra soundness or lighting or to bring your lighting guy cost more your sounding guy. Then you gotta fly them in. Versus we can use the house guy, you know. Or let's add horns. That's more you Know, it's. It's. So what's ironic about business and stuff? A. It's harder when you're small and you're alone versus now maybe I have national venue or Vegas. You could say to someone, you want to play there too? You know, it gets easier. Not easy. And. And to do it better, you usually cost more.

[Mike Fenoya]

Yeah.

[Peter Shapiro]

And sometimes what's good for me is I'm able to. I've made. I always do, by the way. I just. That's me. Because I'm a fan. I always wanted to be better. And I'll choose as much as I can. I'll spend more and make less. Because it just feels to me like that that's the right way to do it, you know, and hopefully paying it for it'll come back around later and. But there is. But it's hard because it's maddening for.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Your accountant, isn't it?

[Peter Shapiro]

They don't, like. No, no. Yeah. To take off. To not do the huge frame of Jerry. To not, like, spend extra on a tie. Dye shirt security guys.

[Mike Fenoya]

Yeah.

[Peter Shapiro]

That costs less.

[Mike Fenoya]

Well, and hearing you now talk like, that's probably the one thing that you would leave thinking about. You would see what wasn't there. Like, you'd walk away going, it was awesome. But we should have did that Jerry picture, or we should have did the roses, or we should have did the tie dye shirts, you know? And like, that's where that positive neuroticism or whatever maybe comes into play.

[Peter Shapiro]

I don't watch. Yeah, I don't watch a lot of tv. I mean, some. Because, like, these series to jump into takes your brain space for me at least to watch, like, to re. Enjoy that. I like going to the movie theater and, like, popcorn and, like, I need. Because if I'm at home, my brain's going. I wrote this in my Netflix. Netflix is like, in my head when I get home. Because during the day I'm, like, doing, you know, dealing with shit. And then I need to dream, you know, like, my time to, like, figure things out. I need to, like, lie on my bed and look at the ceiling, like. But I can't be watching, like, you know, the Crown or some TV show, you know, because I could be, but my brain started back to the add, you know, So I like sitting back and relaxing, but I'm still dreaming a lot. And Because I need to think through or dreaming or like, figuring out, like, should we do this or should we do that? And if we do that, and there's so much to figure out, you know, doing so many shows every day.

[Mike Fenoya]

Well, don't stop, please.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Yeah, I'm glad.

[Mike Fenoya]

Cancel your Netflix now. We need more bowls.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

It's so great.

[Peter Shapiro]

I mean, that. Yeah, there's, you know, that you need. Hopefully people can spend more time in their own head.

[Mike Fenoya]

In their own head.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

I watch Netflix for the same reason. Like me and my wife, before we had kids, we had series and we had binge watch, even sometimes times. And now I'm like, I don't have the space in my brain to get engaged. It's all going to the kids and the multiple things happening and the damn country, you know, it's like, oh, my God. I'm just trying to, like, get my love light, like, ramped up. Brighter and brighter. It takes all I've got. I don't have time to watch Handmaid's Tale. I can watch it happen live.

[Peter Shapiro]

Right. I think the Colonel would give you the same advice.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Oh, absolutely. And, you know, we don't want to keep you too long, but thank you for being with us and taking an hour out of your time. But. But, you know, everything. The Colonel was trying to teach me about music. I realized he was trying to teach me about life. He was using music as a metaphor to get me to figure. And now that I'm older, I see it all and I'm like, it's great. Because it does come down to that. It's about life. Music is magic, but we're magic. This guitar doesn't do anything by itself. It's all our intention. So I'm glad we have him in common, let's put it that way. Yeah, it's a hell of a bond.

[Peter Shapiro]

I just. His story is incredible. And the ending is. You know, you could obviously believe it. We do share, like, his ending, my beginning being in a dead. You know, But I know it's true. No one else could know. Like, I know that if I hadn't had that moment at that show at Rosemont Horizon 30 years ago, I don't think I'm here talking to you guys. I don't. I just wasn't.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

I would have got the Dead & Co. Gig or the Allman Brothers gig, honestly. I mean, the train door.

[Peter Shapiro]

Yeah. Which is a great. By the way, it's a great way to live life because once you're on, also, you make the train door, then you look for the net. You just try to make the best decisions and lean in when you feel like it's the right move. Lean back if you think that's the right move, and just do Your best to ride it. You know, everyone's life has a bit of that jam, and that is like jazz and figuring out you can, you know, what the music does on stage. You can live your life that way. I do see myself maneuvering through, you know, different types of songs and different moments and songs and different tempos. And sometimes it slows down, it goes faster, and when to go to the next song and when to stay in the song and jam longer. You know, I try to. I guess I really do try to do it that way.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

I hope our society can embrace that more, because I feel like it doesn't teach us to improvise. It doesn't teach us, you know, it teaches us to do this and get to here and everything. That way you can be in control. And it's like, we're never really in control. Maybe we should teach our kids to improvise. Teach our kids to set their intention and then just, you know, I don't know. So you've obviously had a huge effect on people to encourage them to do that and keep that philosophy, that way of living alive. So thank you for that, and thank you for being, you know, I always say, oh, man, I missed everything. When I look back at the 60s, I didn't see Dwayne. I didn't see all this stuff. And I wish I could have met Bill Graham. And it's like, you know what? You're my Bill Graham. You know, Bill Graham is Bill and Bobby's Bill Graham. I mean, he's the world's Bill Graham, and you're the world's Peter Shapiro. But for me, that's like. I don't feel like I missed out. It's like, wow, thank you.

[Peter Shapiro]

Wow.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

This story happened. I was a part of it and didn't even really realize it now till I look back on it. Reading your book is such a trip. So thank you, man, for believing in us back then, because man without wetlands, I don't know where Aru.

[Peter Shapiro]

You know, I have a photo. We've been doing things 25 years together, and I'm so fortunate, by the way, thank you. Those words make me want to keep going, you know, so thank you. You know, and it's. You know, we're very fortunate to get to do this together. And I'm so glad I get, you know, to meet you, your brother, you know, your kid, you know, you did the whole. That. That makes this all. You know, this is the. This is why we do it, you know. Thank you. And then the moments in the mat, and I'M glad you guys are doing this stuff. I'm glad I wrote these stories. You know, it was awkward for me to, like, like, do the book, But Dean Budnik's credit to him, he said, have you ever written anything down, like, the stuff we're talking about? I was like, no. And he really. I didn't want to pass up. Right. It's back to sliding. No. Like, I got a guy who's, like, the best guy at writing this stuff, and he's been in half the stuff, and he knows it all. Like, and I didn't to pass that up. And also doing it while I still remember it. Not kidding. Like, I barely. I can barely remember it now. If I had waited 20, 30 years. I'm not kidding. I'm so. I was hesitant to do this, and it's not my life. It's just the story of 50 shows. But if I had waited, I definitely wouldn't have remembered, like, a lot of this stuff.

[Mike Fenoya]

And you've packed a ton of life into those years, man.

[Peter Shapiro]

You know, I know sometimes I'm like, I'm tired. But then you hear OTL say that, and I'm like, you know, let's go book some shows.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Well, let me. Let me end with showing people this. I'll send it to Eric. But this picture right here, it's you, me, and Derek Trucks and Eric Krasno at the wetlands. And, boy, do we all look young.

[Peter Shapiro]

Yeah, that's 25 years ago, dude.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

And to think, like, when I opened that, you know, of course I started the thing, and then I went to the pictures, you know, I looked in here, and I was like, wow.

[Peter Shapiro]

Wow.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

The time flew by. So nice. Yeah. Thank you, man. What a. What a great. I'm glad I lived long enough.

[Peter Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

To have this.

[Peter Shapiro]

We both. We were. For two guys who've been doing that for a long time, the meet the rock and roll thing, we. You know, there's a call, right. Is. There's that magic, you know, cut right when I say, oh, we're looking. Okay, the Colonel says, boom, I'm gonna take your picture out. But I know, actually, I've learned you get two up. Like people say about the dead. Like, the moment you get two up, that's when you know you'll get hit by light. Grass in the street. So I try not to, but I am hella glad. You know, the health. Whatever, we just keep going. We can't think about it too much. I'm psyched. But be doing this with you guys. And, Mike, thanks for doing this with otl. Of course. It's an honor and having me on. And I want to go book some shows now.

[Ottilie Burbridge]

Absolutely. Do it. Go forth. Thank you, Sabina.

[Mike Fenoya]

Thank you for your brother. Yeah, thank you for everything that you do for us.

[Peter Shapiro]

Thanks, guys. I'll see you at a show soon. Thanks, guys. Peace.

[Mike Fenoya]

Peace out.

[Rich Mahan]

Hey, folks, thanks for listening to this special episode of Comes A Time. If you enjoyed this conversation, you can find so many more on the Comes a Time podcast that you'll love. Search for them on your favorite podcatcher or on YouTube. Well, the dead cast will be back next week with our next episode from season six, so make sure to subscribe to us wherever you like to listen to your podcasts. Keep in touch with us by signing up for the official Grateful Dead email [e-mail] and please keep those stories coming, especially any about Madison Square Garden in 81, 82 or 83 by recording yours at stories.dead.net and don't forget to check out dead.net playingintheband jam on executive producers for the good old Grateful Dead cast, Mark Pincus and Doron Tyson, produced for Rhino Entertainment by Rich Mahan Production Productions and Jesse Jarno. Special thanks to David Lemieux. All rights reserved.