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- [00:00]
Rich Mahan
Announcing Dogfish Head Grateful Dead Juicy Pale Ale Collaborating for over a decade now, Dogfish Head and Grateful Dead have crafted a light bodied pale ale brewed with sustainable kerns of grains, granola and heaps of good karma for a refreshing brew that's music to your taste buds. Check out dogfish.com for more details and to find some Grateful Dead Juicy Pale Ale in your neck of the woods. Dogfish Headcraft Brewery is located in Milton, Delaware. Please drink responsibly the Good Old Grateful Dead Cast the Official Podcast of the Grateful Dead I'm Rich Mahan with Jesse Jarno exploring the music and legacy of the Grateful Dead for the committed and the curious. Hello friends. Welcome back to the Good Old Grateful Dead Cast. This episode is part one of a two parter that explores the phenomenon of the Grateful Dead's music being becoming a genre unto itself. And we have many special guests here who help us put the feelings we have for this music not only into words, but also help us shed some light on why this music is so much fun to play and share with like minded music fans. We'll hear from Dennis McNally, Ira Kaplan, John Zias, David Gans, Rebecca Adams, Sanjay Mishra, Jeff Matson, Henry Kaiser, Gary Lambert and Trey Anastasio. As always, you can get new episodes of the good Old Grateful Tedcast right here every other week. Visit us at our website dead.netdeadcast and check out the extra materials we have for you to explore for this and every episode. Also@dead.net deadcast all of our past episodes including complete seasons one and two, as well as the five part skull and Roses series we just wrapped up. You can link from there to any and all the podcasting platforms available so you can listen where you'd like to listen. Please help this podcast by subscribing hitting that like button and leave us a review. Thank you very much. Well Friends, the 50th anniversary edition of the Dead's live double album from 1971, Skull and Roses, is out and available now. There's more than an hour of unreleased Music from the Dead's final Fillmore west show on July 2, 1971 and you can consume this wonderful sounding Release as a 2LP set, a 2 CD set, and on your favorite streaming platform. Purchase direct@dead.net down at your local pub. You might see one night of the week is Open Mic night, another is Bluegrass night, and more often than not you'll see that one night is Grateful Dead night. The music the Grateful Dead created has truly become its own genre and and musicians across the country and indeed, as we'll hear across the globe, love to play these wonderful songs and share them with other Deadheads and soon to be Deadheads. Time to hand this one off to Jesse Jarno.
- [02:59]
Narrator
Some folks trust reason Love is trust.
- [03:02]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
In mind I don't trust nothing but enough we come out right I'd say it once again whoa I hope you understand when it's done over Just man.
- [03:19]
John Zias
Here Playing.
- [03:22]
Narrator
In the Band over the last half century, the Grateful Dead have become something more than a band. When there's live music to be found, find the nearest brew pub with live music. Probably their weekly schedule will have a singer songwriter night, an Irish night, maybe blues night, 80s DJs on the weekends, maybe Sunday bluegrass, and somewhere in there, a Grateful Dead knight. If not, check GratefulDeadTributeBands.com listing nearly 600 acts across the country, and those are just the ones with names and organized enough existences to qualify as bands. It says nothing of people who just play Grateful Dead songs because it's fun. Artists who do occasional Dead tunes along with their own material, or musicians who have just internalized the Dead's approach and make music that doesn't involve playing Dead songs at all. Since the 90s, artists have framed the Dead songbook through jazz, reggae, bluegrass, children's music, dance music, hip hop and more. And musicians with backgrounds in playing Dead music have gone on to find their voices in many far flung styles. This is the Warlocks of Tokyo.
- [04:37]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
You can't hold on. You can go back in a canceled field.
- [04:54]
Narrator
In a lot of ways, it's all kind of improbable and even surprising. Here's Dennis McNally, who became a Deadhead in the 70s, worked for the band as their publicist in the 80s and 90s, and wrote the official and still essential biography, Long Strange trip, published in 2002.
- [05:09]
Dennis McNally
I assumed that, you know, the Grateful Dead phenomenon would sort of dwindle away, as most phenomena do, and was not at all surprised. Simply, quite cynically, the sheer amount of money involved, potential money involved, I was confident that there would be a 50th anniversary show of some sort just because. And leaving aside money is just to put a period on the end of the sentence. And what I did not see coming and what I think happened was that instead of two things, or many things, but two things in particular happened. One was that instead of putting a period on the end of the sentence, it reignited the whole phenomenon. But in the other difference, which was the Deadheads claimed the music back from the band, they said, it's our music. You know, you guys can keep on playing if you want, but. Or not, but it's our music. We love it. Hornsby called. Called Grateful Dead. The classic Grateful Dead songs, hymns. In fact, it's become its own genre, like jazz or blues. I mean, there are 11 dozen dead bands playing Dead material in every. Every city in America.
- [06:28]
John Zias
And.
- [06:32]
Dennis McNally
You know, some of them play it straight, you know, some of them get obsessive and alter the instruments and the way they're on stage and, you know, do Dark Star Orchestra full on gang, you know, mind, you know, melt to try and make it as, you know, represented as possible. And some, you know, whether you have a Grateful Bluegrass Boys or. Or whatever, do stuff where they start with Grateful Dead material and, you know, take a hard right turn to heavy metal or whatever. And as I say, it's its own genre.
- [07:06]
Narrator
Just to pull a few almost arbitrary examples, the Grateful Dead could sound like this Cumberland Blues from 1972 on Dick's Picks 11. Or they could sound like this jam with Branford Marsalis from 1990, released as Apollo with the Ritz on infrared roses in 1991. Or this. Perhaps best not to quibble about. If the Dead created a literal genre, but without even touching on the band's lyrics, they almost certainly constitute a school of music that encompasses a particular attitude towards improvisation and song form, a bag of favorite scales and modes and rhythmic feels, and now encompasses multiple generations of musicians, some of whom have graduated onto music pretty different from the Grateful Dead. How and when did the Grateful Dead become a school of music? The answer is they were all along, and the proof is how early other musicians recognized it. New Jersey teenager John Zias was perhaps the first to crack the code. He saw the Dead just after his 15th birthday in the summer of 1968, and was primed for the release of Anthem of the Sun.
- [08:56]
John Zias
I got Anthem on the day it was out in New York. I think it was August 3rd of 68. We went to see Zappa in Central park that night, and I just kept holding Anthem, and I wasn't even listening to Zappa. I was just, like, going, so I get home and there's that first lick that Jerry does, the other one, and it completely changes the whole complexion of it. It was a major third in that. And I learned that it was the first Jerry lick. I learned where you do a major third in a pentatonic thing.
- [09:39]
Narrator
And with that, John Zias unlocked the first of many doors in both his own guitar playing, but also the mysteries of the Grateful Dead. The Dead were only two albums into their career at that point. And Jerry Garcia was only a few years into his own development as an electric guitarist with plenty to discover himself. But John Zias was ready to learn. With his friend Kenny White, more lately heard with Larry Campbell and many others, Zias started what was very likely the world's very first Dead cover band, Cavalry.
- [10:07]
John Zias
Maybe the summer towards September of 69, some other friends, rhythm section and a rhythm guitarist. We all got together. This guy Bob Ahearn, and he lived across the street from oddly Aldi Viola, who was, you know, a 14 year old who was not accepted in RC, although he did play guitar. We did Viola Lee together once, maybe in 70 he played rhythm guitar for me. That's a whole other thread, man. I mean the whole, like, how did Al go from that? And two years later he's playing like John McLaughlin. But kudos to Al. Dimiola was with us for 7, 11, 70. So we started. We started developing our own little tribe of sorts, you know, this teen tribe, kind of mirroring our passion for the whole San Francisco thing. And Van had a Quicksilver band and he actually had the balls to call John Cipollina's father who was running Mill Valley Realty. In those days you could access people. Gino. Gino was John's father. Gino was so jazzed that we were so into his son that he gave us John's phone number. So we kind of became friendly with John. In fact, I have an image of my Phil Maurice guest pass from John. But we had a scene where they had the Quicksilver band and we had the Dead band and we had maybe 100 other youths who were in our scene and we would do a lot of these pretty tribal events together. It lasted till about 71, June or so when all of us. I was just graduating from high school and I was going to University of Denver in September. So the band kind of split up. Then I formed another one at school. But basically that's how it started for us. We incessantly went to shows and in fact, out of curiosity, in preparation for this, I decided to just write out all the shows I saw from 6874 and it ended up being 71 of them. So that's. And that was before the era of, oh, I'm going on tour, so I'm going to go to 15 nights at this venue and 12 there. So I got all these. You know, we weren't like tracking numbers at the time. We were just going to shows, dropping and, you know, illuminating.
- [12:43]
Narrator
So.
- [12:43]
John Zias
And in 70, in fact, I saw 18 shows and probably the most that year that I was in that elevated state of, you know, seeing this thing at the molecular level, almost hearing it, you know. You know, 71170 is an interesting show because they played a cartoon on the Fillmore screen called the Sunshine People. And it was so apropos as we were all, you know, the world was starting to bend. The approach is the polyrhythmic thing, you know. Of course we found a second drummer. Our bass player started playing melodically. Kenny had a. Probably a much bigger keyboard role because he's such a good player than the role in the Dead was for the keyboard. At the time, he was the other lead instrument. So in that sense we weren't, you know, like doing it exactly like they did. But we were so inspired by the whole elevation process that we got pretty good at it, the interactivity thing, you know. And it's a cliche now, but I mean, at that time for rock musicians it was non existent. It was a jazz thing. There was no conscious effort to recreate as much as that became a thing. In more recent years, years, it was like, we're gonna play Alligator, but you know, we're gonna jam it out, we're gonna do the other one. We're gonna kind of do our own notes, you know, I mean, I mean, it's a long improvisational piece. I don't know how you cover that per se, in a. In a classical music manner for the time. Again, for a bunch of kids, we were. I was 16 and 69, 17 and 70. And we got a whole lot better in 70. We got as close to that sound as we could using the equipment we had. But we had limitations that the Dead themselves didn't. I mean, we were playing a high school dance, we were playing a bar and they were yelling at us, you know, the Dead were playing the Fillmore. And you know, it's. You could really. This music is. Is either meant for a dance hall or a concert stage. To me, in a bar.
- [15:15]
Trey Anastasio
You can make it work.
- [15:16]
John Zias
But it's. I saw the Dead at the Cafe of Gogo. I mean, you know, on the second time around when they did it 9, 29, 69. I went to those shows and it was interesting because after driving Jerry nuts for about 20 minutes pre show with the 16 year old, asking Jerry all the questions I wanted to ask him. Do your own stuff, kid. Do your own stuff. That's all he kept telling me.
- [15:41]
Narrator
John Zias did get one other chance to hang out with the Dead. When Pigpen invited him backstage between shows at Patterson State College in New Jersey in October 1970, that was the night.
- [15:51]
John Zias
I got backstage courtesy of Big Pen and hung out. And it was 17 year old's dream because I actually planned a set list that night with them. Jerry's sitting there warming up, and I'm sitting there like watching all these guys doing all sorts of shit. And Pigpen and I got into a very nice conversation off stage. He invited me back. So as Jerry was warming up, I said, you think I could pick up Bobby's guitar? Jerry goes, well, don't tell Bobby, man. And I played a few chords on it. And then Jerry goes, well, what are we gonna play? And I went on to suggest a few things. Yeah, that sounds good.
- [16:37]
Trey Anastasio
That's great.
- [16:39]
John Zias
Yeah, cool, man. Yeah, we'll do that. Now there's a kid who knows our stuff. So, you know, like I said, I was totally jazzed, you know. And then we watched the show literally leaning on Garcia's six twin reverbs.
- [16:53]
Narrator
In the summer of 1970, the dead had their first big hit with Working Man's Dead, and their second in the fall with American Beauty, which you can learn about at length during the first two seasons of the Dead cast. By the end of that year, the Dead's music had begun to feed back into American music at large. Dr. Rebecca Adams was perhaps the first academic to study Deadhead culture seriously, even bringing a class on tour in the summer of 1989. You can see the results in the book, you ain't gonna learn what you don't wanna know.
- [17:22]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
My first show was September 20, 1970 at the Fillmore East. I had already heard the Dead performed live by a cover band, while they were more than a cover, but a.
- [17:36]
John Zias
Band called the Outer Space Blues Band.
- [17:39]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
That people in my college had formed. The Outer Space Blues Band started at Trinity College in Hartford, Connecticut in the 1970s. They're basically a blues band, what we would now call a jam band. They do a lot of originals, but they also cover the Dead. And they've now been together for more than 5, 50 years.
- [18:04]
Narrator
Besides John Zias's Cavalry. That's probably how it was for most people playing Dead music in the 1970s. A few dead songs scattered throughout a repertoire of covers and originals. As rock music took root in the burbs, the Dead were part of a common songbook. In Croton, on Hudson, New York, Future Yola Tango co founder Ira Kaplan remembered how the Dead fit into his teenage repertoire. The band I played in high school.
- [18:27]
Trey Anastasio
As I said, I was definitely like a hippie town and I played piano in that band.
- [18:33]
Narrator
And the guitar player really disliked the Rolling Stones.
- [18:37]
Trey Anastasio
But we were able to slip a connection into the repertoire by referring to.
- [18:43]
Narrator
It as a New Rider song.
- [18:44]
Trey Anastasio
It wasn't like we were deceiving him, but.
- [18:49]
John Zias
That was enough.
- [18:51]
Narrator
To let it slide.
- [18:54]
John Zias
I think we did the Golden Road.
- [18:55]
Narrator
I'm sure it was gruesome.
- [18:58]
John Zias
We had an extended version of Dancing in the street, you know, which I think was inspired by the vintage Dead.
- [19:05]
Narrator
If you've caught Yola Tengo at the right moment, you may have heard them do the Golden Road like this version at Amoeba Records. In the Hate from 2013. Everybody dance back some around the sun.
- [19:16]
Henry Kaiser
Nobody's finished with.
- [19:20]
Rich Mahan
Y' all know how.
- [19:21]
John Zias
To wheel out There is that.
- [19:40]
Trey Anastasio
The.
- [19:40]
Narrator
Dead were just like any other band at first, providing songs and arrangements that others could play. Of course, they continued to play covers themselves. The very earliest recorded Dead cover is actually by a British band, the Montanas from Wolverhampton, released as a single by Areola records in the UK only in 1971.
- [19:58]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
Come here, Uncle John fan By the.
- [20:02]
Narrator
Riverside Got some things to talk about.
- [20:08]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
Here beside the rising tide Come here.
- [20:13]
Narrator
Uncle John Van bide La la la la la la Come on along, go.
- [20:20]
John Zias
I love he's come to change.
- [20:25]
Henry Kaiser
Uncle.
- [20:25]
Narrator
John's Band was also recorded the next year by the Wheat Tones, the women's a cappella group of Wheaton College in Illinois.
- [20:31]
John Zias
Come here, Uncle John's band Playing to.
- [20:35]
Narrator
The tide Come with me or go alone he's come to take his children.
- [20:42]
John Zias
Home.
- [20:52]
Narrator
Unfortunately, there are no surviving tapes of John Zias and Cavalry.
- [20:56]
John Zias
I do have one recording, but it was just a trio with my. The best Lesh type player I had ever known that early. This guy Tom Dvorak, who unfortunately passed. But it's me, him and a drummer doing our version of a Pharoah Sanders piece into a Grateful Dead psychedelic sort of, you know, with him. Him going between Lesh and Cassidy stylist. By 74, I had gone to Berkeley School of Music, and I was around people like Pat Matheny, you know, my classmates were like Bill Frizzell, you know, and. And I was. I didn't want to play Dead music anymore. The Dead were sort of changing in a way that Mind Melting was less of a priority, and the shows became a little more streamlined. And I'm not saying that they didn't have moments of incredible creativity throughout their 30 years, but for me, I got into this whole jazz ethereal jazz ECM Records thing.
- [22:30]
Narrator
But John Zias wasn't entirely done with the Dead.
- [22:33]
John Zias
I'm playing at this bar with these friends of mine that had a New Riders cover band called Great Northern. This is december 73, and they decided to do a Dead thing because I was there and they asked me to come up, right? So we start doing Alligator. And all of a sudden I'm seeing this cat, kind of really long hair, tall, skinny guy, and he's going Alligator cover around my door. And he starts pointing at me. And I said, who's that asshole? And then the guitarist of that band goes to me. That's Elliot. And that's where I met Elliot. And of course, a few years later, Elliot became a rock star. Elliot Easton, the Cars. We did Dead gigs together in 74 at colleges. And he was a really good primal Debt era. Jerry. First of all, Elliot, what people don't know, they know those perfect solos in the Cars tunes, okay? They don't know that. Elliot is one of the best Hendrix guys who ever lived. I mean, I'm talking when he was 20, man. He's my age. You know, he was really good. We used to do Love Light and just trade, trade, trade. And he had that swing feel that Jerry had in that era and just bouncing all over the place. And, you know, he was. He was really, really into the Dead. He sort of fell out of it. And then being a lot smarter than me, he realized that there was no future in what I was pursuing, which was, you know, ethereal jazz. But there was a future in the new wave movement, Starting with the folk.
- [24:14]
Narrator
And country influenced songs of Working Man's Dead and American Beauty. The Dead moved into the realm of commonly covered artists. Check out our Friend of the Devil episode from season two about how that song became something of a bluegrass Standard. But by 1973, the dead were so popular that they inspired something more than cover bands. They inspired an actual knockoff by Pickwick Records, the notorious Budget label where Lou Reed got his start as an in house songwriter. A decade earlier, in 1973, if you were in a record store, you might have chanced upon a record that read in big letters, Watkins Glen with a hand in hand hippie couple wandering down an idyllic forest path, maybe not too far from the couple on the Woodstock soundtrack. It listed nine songs, three each by the Dead, the Band and the Allman Brothers, the stars of the ginormous 1973 Summer Jam in Watkins Glen. On the back cover was a giant photo of a huge speaker system. You could be Forgiven for thinking that it was a live album from that festival. Especially when you dropped the needle on the LP and immediately heard the sound of crowd noise. But listen a little longer.
- [25:41]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
Trouble ahead, trouble behind and you know, that notion just cross my mind.
- [25:51]
Narrator
Around the time the crowd disappears and you wonder why Donna sounds so weird, you might check out the small print on the front cover and see the album's full subtitle, which can only be read in the voice of Otto from the Simpsons. King's Road plays the heavy sounds of the Watkins Glen concert. They didn't even learn the cool ending to Uncle John's band. Thank you. The Dead were an influence throughout the music industry. Knockoff novelty LPs, singer, songwriters, jammers, not to mention an influence on the industry itself, helping to develop various sound technologies as well as direct marketing. Even as John Zias classmates may have looked down their noses at the Dead, the Dead were becoming a kind of school of music on their own. David Ganz was already a songwriter and musician when he became a deadhead in 1972.
- [27:05]
David Gans
I moved to Berkeley in 74, and a schoolmate of mine who was just dropping out of Cal and heading back to San Jose said, look up my friends on Aetna Street. They play Grateful Dead music. So I went over to this apartment where these guys were hanging, and they indeed had guitars, and they were indeed playing Grateful Dead music. And we started playing together, and I wound up being in bands with those guys off and on for about 30 years after that. So the Grateful Dead worked their way into my musical consciousness pretty quickly and revolutionized it in a lot of ways. I continued playing music and writing songs all through that with a sense that music could go deeper and that you could make music that was spontaneous. And it wasn't about perfecting the canonical incarnation of a song. It was about the music as living, breathing fodder for conversations and improvisation. And I hooked up with a bunch of guys who liked to do that same thing. And we never, ever limited ourselves to Grateful Dead songs because one of the other guys in the band was a writer as well. So we always had a band in which we played our own songs and we played Grateful Dead songs and we played other songs. We loved all kinds of music. Our models at that time were the Dead, Commander Cody and His Lost Planet Airmen, and Asleep at the Wheel. And I think one of the most important things about Grateful Dead music, that musicians in particular should understand, is that they were great, great songwriters, brilliant improvisers in an utterly unique conversational style, and also really Gifted interpreters of other people's music. And that's what me and my buddies were doing. We were using them as a model for taking our own thing forward. And the Dead always treated material equally. We understood from them that this is an ongoing live event, not a shrine to anything. I've often referred to it as spontaneous midair architecture. Because everybody is drawing lines. And if you're standing at a distance from it, you're seeing the shape of something that is the greater than the sum of the lines that are being drawn by the individuals. And you know their styles. You know, you get to know who's saying what. But it's a very democratic style of music making. Everybody has the power to dominate the rap, and this is key. The good grace not to.
- [29:58]
Narrator
But California and New York weren't the only places where the Dead were having an impact several oceans away. On the other side of the world, Guitarist Sanjay Mishra was a teenager in Calcutta in the mid-1970s.
- [30:10]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
No Western records made it officially into India other than the Beatles. The Beatles were on a label because of the colonialism past, I suppose. The Beatles were on a label that was released in India. I think Capitol Records had a subsidiary through his Master's Voice, or HMV in India. And they managed to release all the Beatles records. And Cliff Richards and the Shadows were huge in that part of the world. Probably Cliff was just as big as the Beatles in many ways.
- [30:55]
Narrator
The Grateful Dead's music made it to Calcutta via the overland route, what was then known as the hippie trail.
- [31:01]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
Nepal and Goa in India were two big parts of that whole circuit. If people came over land from Amsterdam, you basically went through Iran into Afghanistan. Huge, huge center for great hashish, some of the best hashish in the world. So then from Afghanistan, you know, you loaded your bus up with. With kilos of hash. You come into India, into Goa, India, which is by the ocean in the winter, because it gets cold in the mountains. And then you hang out there. And then you go into northern India, which is hash harvesting season in September, and then Thailand, Bangkok, where there's a lot of heroin and opium and all of that. So the way we got American music was through hippies who came to India and then ended up being broke or wanting to do more drugs and running out of money. So they'd sell. Gradually, they'd start to sell their stuff. I mean, it would start with, you know, bigger items and then come down to, like, tapes, records, whatever, you know, and eventually those records would make it down to us. I remember cleaning a lot of weed on live beds.
- [32:28]
Narrator
Sanjay and his friends started a band, Maha Maya.
- [32:32]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
I think 75 and 76 were probably when we played more than ever over there. Initially, it was mostly the Beatles and, you know, some instrumental by the Shadows or the Ventures or something like that. You know, I mean, that's all we knew. And we really. We were little kids, we had no idea what we were doing, but anything that was finger, it was fun because, you know, the Ventures, the Shadows, you could play that stuff. It wasn't too difficult. People learn by being apprentices. And since in rock and roll there is, or at least there was no school of rock, which there is now, a little bit. But even then, I think you learn by playing other people's stuff and watching other people. And, you know, it's not so much a written tradition like classical music is. You know, it's more important through contact, almost like folk music.
- [33:36]
Narrator
But then they found the dead.
- [33:37]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
I just remember Europe 72 very clearly because that was on the playlist in rotation, so to speak, all the time for. For a long time.
- [33:48]
Narrator
China Cat Sunflower was among the songs they picked to learn.
- [33:51]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
One of the hardest things was figuring out the lyrics because the accent was so different. We had some really funny what we thought they were singing, and what I later found out they were singing. It was like, oh, we had this completely wrong, by the way. And, you know, I told you this before, for the longest time, I thought Bob Weir was Jerry Garcia. No, it was Bob Weir was doing the singing, and Jerry Garcia played lead guitar. China Cat Sunflower was the perfect example because there was no way you could sing that and play that line. They were too different. So we were like, okay, yeah, so that's Jerry Garcia. And then the songs Bobby was singing, I thought Garcia was singing. So that in my mind, that was the Grateful Dead until I got a Jerry Garcia solo album. And that confused the hell out of me. And then I thought, wait a second, it can't be. I mean, there's no way one person could have that much talent. It's just not possible.
- [35:07]
Narrator
It was possible, though. The lead line on China Cat was played by Bob Weir. It was written by Jerry Garcia, which is why it kind of sounds like him.
- [35:25]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
Western music was still a little bit alien, right? Meaning the way people heard 1, 4, 5 here from the day you were born, basically, you know, church, everything was built on those. That three chord progression. For 300 years, I didn't have that. So I didn't necessarily hear C going to F, going to G resolving to C, which I do now, but at the time, no, I was like, well, I don't feel the need for F to go to G at all or to go anywhere, really. Which is, ironically, what classical composers said at the end of the 1800s when they said, you know, no, the chords don't have to resolve or go anywhere. And that's what ended tonality in western music.
- [36:18]
Narrator
In 1901, the Grateful Dead were Western music, unquestionably, but they were more than that.
- [36:23]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
It gave us the room to spread out a little bit. The Allman Brothers also, we liked for the same reasons, because they also did that, which was, you know, you had fixed things. You did. You had this part and then you had this part, but in the middle, you could go crazy for 10 minutes as long as there was a cue to come back into that little ending thing. So it gave us the opportunity to, you know. And we were also getting high and tripping on acid and all of that at that time. So. So a lot of doors were opening, and this music provided the platform to. To stay with something that we were familiar with at this point, which was rock and roll. As. As. I mean, as much as we knew it, at least it was easy enough. It wasn't as complicated as jazz was, because that just seemed too. Too difficult to GRASP.
- [37:23]
Narrator
But in 1975, in Calcutta, the members of Maha Maya came to LSD and the grateful that independently and decided they went pretty well together.
- [37:32]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
We had no idea that these guys had done any of that. We had no idea that they had any connection with acid, any of that. Right. If anything, we knew the Beatles, we knew the Jimi Hendrix. And then we hear this, and we're instantly fans and wanting to play it and getting to a point where we become, like, almost a Grateful Dead cover band, where, you know, all that happened within one year or less. So it went from, like, never knowing them to just, like, devour. So something about it must have fundamentally made a connection that without us knowing the hype, without us knowing any of it, and really, we had seen Woodstock and the Grateful Dead were not in it. There were other American bands in it, but not the Grateful Dead. I think that whole psychedelic connection is more than just a superficial thing. I think it's a deeper thing because it has to be. How else would it travel across two oceans and make a connection without the person knowing that history?
- [38:45]
Narrator
Maha Maya started to build a following.
- [38:47]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
We played all kinds, from big to small. I mean, we played, like, believe it or not, from a stadium to, like, a market, you know, so that entire Range. But mostly there were auditoriums that seated about 2000 people. India only has 1.5 billion people. So 2000 in India is not a big number. 2000 people gather if you sneeze in a city in India, you know, I mean, it doesn't take anything.
- [39:21]
Narrator
But it wasn't just a following. It bordered on a scene.
- [39:24]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
It wasn't like all of, you know, India was San Francisco. But there were pockets where we could do like a show and we would have like 2,000 people and the whole fucking place would be tripping and getting high and we'd be playing all Dead tunes. And it was like 1975 when we would play these shows, we would have a little booklet, like a program with all these ads which would help pay for the gig and all the musicians and all that stuff. But we would actually print a set list. Our set list would go like this. It would be Allman Brothers, Grateful Dead, Jimi Hendrix, Doobie Brothers, Allman Brothers, Grateful Dead, Jimi Hendrix, Grateful Dead, Grateful Dead, Grateful Dead, Grateful Dead, Allman Brothers, Grateful Dead, Grateful Dead, Grateful Dead, Allman Brothers. The people who came were like minded people, mostly stoners and people who like more, you know, jam band. What's today called jam band. Back then it was that kind of music and a few that had no idea what was going on, but. But it was something western. So they just wanted to see what this was because, you know, what is all this and why do these guys look like girls? And then they got a certain section, got very upset by all this, and I literally attacked us for spreading what they called Yankee culture, American culture, meaning, you know, I was accused of being a CIA spy because, you know, here you are playing music of a country that many of them don't like because they're all like wannabe communists. So this is capitalism, this is America. This is all those things that they don't like. And I'm like, actually this is not mainstream America either. These are not the guys standing there with the Coca Cola bottle. These are the guys saying, no, don't drink that crap. But how do I explain that? I can't, because now this is getting confrontational and. And I don't even know what I'm being accused of. So I'm like, what? We're just playing music.
- [41:54]
Narrator
For a nuanced conversation about the fine lines between countercultural revolution and countercultural colonialism, I highly recommend Michael Kramer's book, the Republic of Rock. In Calcutta. Though Maha Maya kicked out the jams after a few years of being in a successful band, Sanjay had A choice. He could buy a cabin in the Himalayas or head to the United States and go to music school to study classical guitar, which he discovered. In the interim, he was accepted into the Peabody Institute at the Johns Hopkins University in Maryland and headed across the world with the intent to eventually return to his old band. But years turned into decades. Like John Zias, Sanjay pushed forward.
- [42:33]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
I was just super focused on learning as much as I could because again, the goal was to play my own music and I wasn't looking to become another Segovia sort of clone.
- [42:45]
Narrator
After graduating from Peabody and a decade of playing with world class musicians, he continued his career as an independent performer and composer, choosing classical guitar with Indian scales and a deep sense of adventure that he picked up somewhere along the way. In the meantime, he got a job at Greenpeace working as a public information director. You'll never believe what happened next. You really won't.
- [43:07]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
I got a call from the Greenpeace PR people saying, you know, there's some corporate spy on the way who wants some information, so we're sending him to you. And they explained that it's a corporate spy because the hotel from where the call came, only a corporate spy would stay there, meaning, you know, no Greenpeace person would stay at the Four Seasons. And I see this person walking down and I'm like, holy shit, it's Jerry Garcia. It's like, that's no corporate spy.
- [43:41]
Narrator
You can find a link to the whole story@dead.net deadcast. The former guitarist from Maha Maya said nothing about his former life, but did work up the nerve to give Garcia his self released CD within a year. By the end of 1994, they were recording together at Front street in San Rafael. Garcia's last session at the Dead's longtime studio. Very likely the music was released on Sanjay's album Blue Incantation. And some alternate versions of Sanjay Mishra and Jerry Garcia were recently released by Jerry Garcia Music Arts as Front street outtakes. Here's a little bit of the beautiful track Nocturne. During a break in the recording, Sanjay finally worked up the nerve to tell Jerry about Maha Maya and show him one of their programs with a setlist printed up.
- [44:55]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
China, Cat, Sunflower, I know you, Rider, Crazy Fingers, Trucking. One more Saturday night. So Jerry is looking at this and laughing very hard to a point where he can't speak and cheeks are all red. So I was like, oh, oh my God. I've really embarrassed myself now. I hope he'll still talk to me because soaps are not knowing. You know that he's seen all this times. 100 here anyway. But finally when he recovered his composure, he saw the look on my face and he could tell that I was mortified. You know, to put it mildly. Just stone, you know what I mean? Just like a statue. Just know I was just like, oh my God, I screwed up. And he's like, no, no, no.
- [45:49]
Henry Kaiser
I'm.
- [45:49]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
Not laughing at this. I'm going to get to this in a second. I'm laughing that you guys had a set list. And the grateful dead in 30 years could not put together a set list, but you guys did.
- [46:04]
Narrator
Sanjay Mishra has continued to release music and in more recent years has sat in with a dark store orchestra and can occasionally be found jamming on Dead covers around the Washington, D.C. area. We've linked to his website mishra.net@dead.net deadcast Here's a little bit of some of his recent music from the great Duets album recorded during Lockdown with guitarist Garrett Gleason. This is There I was. But it was in the United States, just as Sanjay was enrolling in music school, that Dead influence bands really began to bloom over the course of the later 70s and early 80s. In Virginia, Bobby High Test and the Octane Kids featured a pair of brothers on bass and keyboards, Bobby and Bruce Hornsby. A decade and a half before Bruce's international pop success and his time playing piano and accordion with the Dead themselves in Connecticut, Max Creek began mixing covers by the Dead, the New Riders, the Allmans and others, along with their own originals. Here's a little bit of them jamming on Truckin at Boney's Cafe in 1975, a year the Dead didn't tour the East Coast. In New York, one young musician who went to school with the Dead's music in the deepest way possible was a Long island teenager named Jeff Matson, now the lead guitarist in the Dark Star Orchestra.
- [48:20]
Jeff Matson
I saw the dead in. In 73. 9873 is my first show, Nassau Coliseum. And that was really did it for me, as it is for a lot of people when they see the show. But for me specifically, it was, oh, I'm hearing these songs, particularly the ones they played on the live albums. And they're not playing the same notes, you know, they're not. That's when I really groked how much improvisation was there. And I said, oh, this is for me. And I. And I, at that point I really became a hardcore, you know, where I kind of pushed away everything else and just listen to Dead all the time. Maybe The All Brothers in the Band, you know, not Dylan, you know, but it took me years to come back to. Well, that was the who and stuff, like songs and stuff.
- [49:10]
Narrator
As a young guitarist, it took Jeff a few years to really get inside the music.
- [49:14]
Jeff Matson
I was dabbling in it, I was kind of getting it. But when I saw the Garcia band the first time, which was in 1976 with the Calderone, I had an epiphany. I understood what Jerry was doing. I mean, I couldn't necessarily just do it because I understood it, but I understood, oh, he's not just playing licks or scales, he's addressing each chord. And so it's playing beautiful melodies because he plays, references each chord. And I understood that. And it was a powerful moment for me. And then I worked towards that. Still working towards it.
- [50:04]
Narrator
In the late 70s, Jeff Matson Co founded Volunteers, the band that would morph into the zen tricksters. In 1988, on Long island, they found themselves in the middle of an absolutely rabid Grateful Dead scene. Perhaps the most intense in the entire country.
- [50:18]
Jeff Matson
Living in Nassau County, I had no idea what it was like in other parts of the country, but there. But I mean, as we know now, it was always a really. It was a hotbed of Grateful Dead Deadheads. You know, we played five, six nights a week in Long island bars and people came to see us. You know, I mean, in fact, I didn't start traveling touring probably to maybe early to mid-90s. I made my living playing in the New York area. You know, it was a steady job. I mean, I've been lucky. That's all I've ever done is play guitar for a living. And so I consider myself extremely fortunate. We had a scene going in the 80s. We played every Saturday night at this place called the Right Track Inn in Freeport, Long Island. I think we played there every Saturday night for nine years. And it was a scene, you know, there was a parking lot and there was a parking lot scene. I found out later there were people who didn't even come into the show. They came for the parking lot scene. So I don't know what they did while we were playing. But then the break, everybody came home, they were playing Frisbee, drinking beers and playing Dead music. So funny. I mean, everywhere I go in the country, people yell out like, right, tracking. And I say, you're old. The thing was with the volunteers and in 1988, we became the Zentrixters. We always played Grateful Dead and then we were. We had a reputation for that, but we always Played original music, too. And I think that gets lost somewhere along the way. Along the way. And then we play anything that would fit in, you know, play a band song or a Dylan song or Janice Janis Joplin tunes. We had a woman singer, Jennifer Marquardt, and it was kind of like whatever we felt like playing, you know. Of course, we knew that it was kind of a blessing and a curse because we had a good following because we played the Grateful Dead well. But no one ever really took us seriously as an original band because we had a reputation of being really good at playing Grateful. So that was. And that continued into the Zentrixus years, touring the country, which we did forever.
- [53:01]
Narrator
You know, as epic as the Grateful Dead could sound in the 1980s and 1990s, what they did not sound like was the Grateful dead in the 1970s, which the Zen Tricksters very capably did for a fraction of the price and in much smaller venues. Here's the Zen Tricksters at the right track on March 23, 1990, playing Here Comes Sunshine, a song long absent from the Dead Zone set lists. SAM Lots of different musicians found their way to Grateful Dead music. That was the extremely psychedelicized Arizona punk band the Meat Puppet doing China Cat Sunflower, sort of. On June 30, 1981, at the Mardi Gras Club in Phoenix. They learned a bunch of tunes from the Dead, though learn might be a strong word. This is from February 2, 1982, at Merlins in Tempe. One of the Meat Puppets label mates on SST Records, though, was the avant garde guitarist Henry Kaiser, who established himself in the late 70s as a musician as dexterous as he was. Far out, Henry discovered he was far from the only Dead fan making music for sst.
- [55:19]
Henry Kaiser
I made a record for them and they kept wanting more records. And I said to Greg Ginn, hey, Greg, do you like the Grateful Dead? He's like, sure, I love it. I was like, really? You, Mr. Punk Guy who owns the label? Yeah. I said, do you mind if I make a record and do Darkstar and Ode to Billy Cho and some stuff? And he said, no, that'd be great.
- [55:37]
Narrator
Greg Ginn, founder and owner of SST Records, is perhaps the punk era's most notorious Deadhead. Founder of the band Black Flag, Ginn was also a rabid Dead freak, hitchhiking around California to see shows. Henry Kaiser had found the right label. This is from the 1988 album those who Know History Are Doomed to Repeat it, in which the entirety of the second side is given over to A Dark Star suite with Kaiser joined by Glenn Phillips, co founder of the most righteous Hampton Grease Band. To say that Kaiser learned from the Dead might actually be an understatement. SAM.
- [56:42]
Henry Kaiser
I grew up in high school with the Grateful Dead. I was at the Longshoreman's Acid Test. I was at the show at the bowling alley at Lake Tahoe. That's on Anthem of the Sun. So those were some of my first experiences of the Grateful Dead. And they presented a very powerful presentation. Then through my college years in 1972, when I started to play guitar, of improvisation. And Dark Star was a special thing. It wasn't just a jam that was the same thing every time. It was a door that the Dead went through to get to new and surprising places more often than not. I mean, it started off as Bob Weir says, here's a foxtrot, a lady's choice. You know, it was this little jam thing for dancing. And then it turned into something completely different, had an identity of its own. When I started to play guitar and played for a few years, I never really tried to play like Jerry Garcia or the Grateful Dead. And there weren't many Grateful Dead cover bands or nobody played that material much. Nobody played Dark Star that I knew of. That was In December of 1987, when I recorded Dark Star and the Grateful Dead weren't playing it and not many other people were. You know, an interesting footnote to that is something that gave me the idea is when I was in college, before I played guitar, I was reading a science fiction magazine, Amazing Stories. It was edited by Ted White, and there was a story that was set in a moon base. They have a scene in the written story in the magazine in a bar, and they mention there's a band playing Dark Star. So I think that's one of the first times somebody thinking about that. And that stuck with me, too. I mean, I would have come to it on my own, but that was an extra kick in the butt.
- [58:29]
Narrator
Years before I came up empty handed when trying to find Darkstar. Reference in an issue of Amazing Stories, but I count Henry as an eminently reliable witness. If anybody can figure it out, please get in touch in the comments@dead.net deadcast.
- [58:43]
Henry Kaiser
And again, you know, I feel like Darkstar is this external entity that reaches out, plays through people in a different way than the other one, in a different way than playing in the band. It's this funny, magical thing of its own, like a love supreme and like a few other things, but not many other things. The snobbish Part of the warp music world that, you know, that wasn't real music. That was just that rock stuff or, you know, it wasn't a hippie prejudice thing. It was in a lot of part, that parts of the world, people had not noticed that that was real creative, exploratory, interesting music. And people still hadn't noticed what an amazing writer Robert Hunter was, et cetera. You know, weird. The Grateful Dead were a model of cooperation, of different personalities, which is what people have to do together. And the great. And Garcia was a model of being eclectic and having an eloquent voice and playing on stage beyond what he already knows. He wasn't a guy who got up on stage and played what he practiced, like, say, Alde Miola does, to pick on L. Demeola again. You know, he'd go up there and play things he never played before, which jazz guys did. All kinds of guys did, but. And a lot of San Francisco bands did. But Garcia, you know, went more places, had more knowledge, was really special. There's the little bit spinning his Head of Stars lyrics that's on the Grateful Dead single. And I thought, gosh, I wonder if Hunter would do that for me. And I wrote a letter to Hunter, who I'd never contacted, and said, we're doing Dark Star, and we're, you know, us kids are doing it. We're doing it this kind of way. And I wonder if you'd want to send this me. Do the audio for me at the end of those lyrics. And, you know, a couple days later, there's a cassette in the mail with Hunter saying those words at the end. And we flew him into it, you know? You know, that's. You know. And that's not me thinking art. That's just Darkstar saying through me, hey, I want those Hunter's words at the end. Nobody said those since then.
- [61:52]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
Spinning a set of stars through which.
- [61:53]
John Zias
The tattered fields of axis rolls around.
- [61:55]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
The waxen wind never set to motion and the unbecoming round about the season.
- [62:00]
Narrator
Partly matters of the wise in which.
- [62:02]
John Zias
The stars were set in spin.
- [62:10]
Henry Kaiser
Spinning ascent the stars through which the tattered tails of axis roll about the waxen wind of Never set to motion in the unbecoming round about the reason hardly matters nor wise through which the stars were set in spin. You know, nobody says. It's like a magic spell that nobody says out loud anymore. Yeah, it's like a magic spell at the end of Dark Star.
- [62:40]
Narrator
Dark Star and Dead music have continued to be a part of Henry's considerable vocabulary in the more than 30 years since then, he's performed and recorded with Bob Weir, worked with other Dead songs and other Dead related musicians. In fact, the regular bassist for a time in the 90s was none other than our pal Gary Lambert.
- [62:58]
Gary Lambert
Our ethos was kind of different. Most Dead cover bands of the time were, you know, I don't say this as a pejorative, pretty reverent to the music. And Henry and the rest of us were anything but. And we thought that was true. True to the Grateful Dead in a way, you know, not taking a reverent approach to it, just as they did take a reverent approach to the genres that inspired them. So part of our mission was to play songs that the Grateful Dead had orphaned, had left behind that had not been in the repertoire for years. That wasn't universally true, but, you know, this was in a period where they hadn't done Alligator in years and they hadn't done the 11 in years, and they hadn't even done St. Stephen in years. And we chose to do songs like that. Cream Puff War, the old punkish arrangement of Cold Rain and Snow. We all brought our own eccentricities and frame of reference to the music.
- [63:52]
Narrator
But if the Dead could be an incredible launching point, they could also be a complicating factor for young musicians who both enjoyed playing the Dead's music, but were also serious about finding their own identities. Here's what the band Phish sounded like at their very first show in 1983, featuring lead guitarist Trey Anastasio, still a teenager, playing the Harris Millis cafeteria at the University of Vermont. And so we're honored to welcome to the Grateful Dead cast Trey Anastasio.
- [64:48]
Trey Anastasio
When we started, the Dead played in the Gym that year in 1983, and they played right, which is 10ft from where our first show lives. You know, the Harris Millis is. You could hit. I could jump out and touch the door of Patrick Gym, where the Dead played in 1983, months before our shows, and we were 18. And the Dead played in the Gym. They played the most iconic version of Scarlet Fire ever played by that band in that gym. Go listen to it. I like the one from the audience better than the soundboard. It's the best guitar playing I've ever heard. It was the best guitar playing ever. And every 18 year old is going to play the band that played in the gym. That's how you start. The other band that played in 1983 in the gym was Talking Heads. And I was there in the 10th row watching talking Heads with Tina Real talking Heads. And we played a Talking Heads song. So right, that's okay. The Beatles played covers, Bob Marley played covers, everybody played covers when they were 18. And you can play covers throughout your career. But the work of starting to find your own voice as an original artist begins then. Or you're missing an investment in making your economy and your life on a previous generation's youth.
- [66:46]
Narrator
During their first year in Change as a band, Fish mixed a dose of covers by the Dead and others with their own songs. But then they drew a line in the sand.
- [66:54]
Trey Anastasio
I walked into band practice and I like no more Dead ever. Until we did that one song on his birthday, which was like 20 years later. It was all original compositions from the beginning and all trying to find our own voice.
- [67:06]
Narrator
Fish kept playing selected covers by a diverse range of artists in their earlier years, but more often is punctuation after large chunks of original material. Emphasis on the original. But while Phish may have jettisoned their Grateful Dead songs, they tried to honor the band on a deeper level.
- [67:22]
Trey Anastasio
They also had that at their shows there was a feeling of community, inclusiveness and exploration and magic that in Phish and Tab we wanted to. It seemed like anti commodity in a way that was totally contrary to the scene that we existed in at the time, in the 80s, which was a very money driven. It was such a weird money driven time in the history of music that here was this band that was about dancing and inclusiveness and was pointing to something much more timeless that seemed to be pointing backwards and forwards at the same time. That's what we wanted to pick up on in our own way. In our own way.
- [68:07]
Narrator
That was part of a much longer conversation I had with Trey, mostly about his long solo career, but touching on Phish and lots of other topics. It was edited down by the crew at Osiris media into a four part limited podcast called Alive Again. After spending nearly 25 years away from Dead music, Trey and his bandmate Paige McConnell appeared with Phil Lesh and friends for a series of well received shows in 1999. After that, Trey visited Deadland occasionally, but it wasn't until being invited to join the surviving members of the dead for the 2015 fare thee well shows that he really went back to cool. Trey certainly wasn't the first musician to try to put the Dead behind him, nor the last. John Zias from the very first Grateful Dead cover band, Cavalry, didn't play Dead music for decades either.
- [69:25]
John Zias
There's something very seductive about it and unique to it, which is why we're all here. I mean, which is why it's so pan. Generational. I mean, I'm 67 and I often play for people that are 19 and, you know, I could relate to a good amount of those folks, you know, in terms of what they're looking for. You know, it's a pretty incredible journey here. I really regret my mother throwing out all my Fillmore east ticket stubs and programs in 1976 when she came to Florida. But like I said, none of us realized, you know, that this stuff would have such a legacy.
- [70:11]
Gary Lambert
If Jerry had just been a Bakersfield guitar freak, he might have been a very good Bakersfield style guitarist, but the fact that he also let Django Reinhart into his ears and John Coltrane into his ears and all those influences is what. What formed him. And if you're just coming from a single source of inspiration, you know, if you see bands where this guy is the Jerry and, you know, he's. He's just. He's playing the Jerry parts really faithfully or the modes or whatever, it's. It's inhibiting now, that can be very satisfying in itself. And I've always said Grateful Dead music has been around long enough to be a tradition unto itself. And every musical tradition can be really closely adhered to. It's really satisfying to hear a band play New Orleans style jazz of the 1920s. And you know, you know that that trumpet player is toiling in the shadow of Louis Armstrong and doing it really faithfully. And it's beautiful. But then you also, at least I also want to hear Lester Bowie or some. Somebody who totally innately understands Lewis's music but then goes to an entirely different place with it. If you're looking to grow musically and you have been in the Grateful Dead world for too long, it's all people think you want to talk about or hear about or express musically. And that's, you know, that can be. I mean, even someone as much of a freestanding republic as Bruce Hornsby has had his moments where he tried, you know, after his association with the Grateful Dead, he tried to play a solo show. And just people would be shouting Warframe all the time, you know, and, you know, he's flattered by it and he loves the association with the Grateful Dead, but it also, if that's the way people perceive you, if that's the pigeonhole people want to put you in, it can be a little problematic. And I say that with utter gratitude for everything I've experienced connected to the Grateful Dead. It's also really great to get outside of that world and into other musical realms.
- [72:15]
Narrator
As French New Wave director Jean Luc Godard said, it's not what you take, it's where you take it. But on the other hand, sometimes you just really want to go see some Dead music and get your chuglem on.
- [72:25]
Gary Lambert
When we're talking about Playing Dead and the personal experience of it, you know, the fundamental thing I would say about this stuff is it's so much fun to play. You know, these songs are really fun to play on the most basic level. Just as songs, even if you're not going to extrapolate on them wildly, you know, they just have a great feel to them. And then if you are developing an improvisational language. The Grateful Dead always wrote and chose songs to cover that were full of what jazzers would call great blowing changes. They just provided an architecture that naturally lend itself to extrapolation and improvisation. And you can take it anywhere you want, and you can be as faithful with it or as heretical with it as you want. It's a beautiful little field to run around in. It always has been.
- [73:26]
Narrator
We'll sign off today with a little bit of a Dead cover I adore. In fact, forget that I just told you this is a Dead cover.
- [73:34]
John Zias
Oh, I know that there is no.
- [73:37]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
Place Place you can go to.
- [73:41]
Narrator
And.
- [73:42]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
I know you don't know anyone at.
- [73:45]
Narrator
All.
- [73:49]
Various Dead Fans / Musicians
So come walking in the sun with me, my little one and remember.
- [73:57]
Narrator
That the only time is now this is the British garage punk band the Fire department from their 1996 release LP from another time doing the Only Time Is Now, a song the Dead recorded at their first session in 1965 and never again. It's not so much a reinvention of the song as it is a sharpening and polishing. When the fire Department recorded it, it hadn't yet been officially released, and the tape they learned it from seemingly called the song Walking in the sun, which is what they labeled it as. The Dead could write catchy songs right from the start. Who knew? Like many of my favorite Dead covers, it makes me discover a whole new Grateful Dead.
- [75:04]
Rich Mahan
Did anyone else think that was Leon Russell at first singing Casey Jones on that fake Watkins Glenn record? I had to do a quick double take when I heard that in Part two of Playing Dead. We'll have even more special guests. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next time. Executive producers for the good old Grateful Dead cast Mark Pincus and Doran Tyson, produced for Rhino Entertainment by Rich Mahan Productions and Jesse Jarno. Special thanks to David Lemieux. All rights reserved.