GOOD OL' GRATEFUL DEADCAST

Episode: Playing Dead, Part 1
Release Date: July 8, 2021
Hosts: Rich Mahan & Jesse Jarnow
Guests: Dennis McNally, Ira Kaplan, John Zias, David Gans, Rebecca Adams, Sanjay Mishra, Jeff Matson, Henry Kaiser, Gary Lambert, Trey Anastasio

Episode Overview

Theme & Purpose:
This episode explores how the Grateful Dead's music has transcended its band origins to become a genre, performance tradition, and global musical language. Interviews and anecdotes from musicians, fans, historians, and Dead scholars illuminate how "playing Dead" is both homage and adventure: from teen cover bands in New Jersey to jam sessions in India and punk clubs in Arizona, the Dead's music functions as "hymns," as roots, as a participatory genre, and as a launching point for original artistry. The episode also examines the tension between reverent recreation and creative evolution in the Dead tradition.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Grateful Dead as a Genre (03:18, 05:09)

• The band’s repertoire has become its own genre, with tribute bands and jam nights proliferating globally.
• The "Deadhead" community has reclaimed ownership, and covering or reinventing Dead music is now a communal badge.

Dennis McNally (05:09):

"What I did not see coming ... instead of putting a period on the end of the sentence, it reignited the whole phenomenon. The Deadheads claimed the music back from the band, they said, it’s our music."

Early Dead Cover Bands: The Case of Cavalry (08:56–15:40)

• John Zias describes forming the first documented Dead cover band, Cavalry, in New Jersey (late ‘60s/early ‘70s).
• The music's flexibility and openness to improvisation inspired teenage musicians to create their own scenes parallel to the Dead, mirroring the San Francisco sound.
• Zias recounts encounters with Dead members and the thrill of being backstage with Pigpen and Jerry Garcia.

John Zias (15:16):

"After driving Jerry [Garcia] nuts for about 20 minutes...he kept telling me, 'Do your own stuff, kid.'"

The Dead in American Musical Culture (18:26–20:31)

• The Dead’s music entered the general rock canon early on, learned and covered by countless amateur bands.
• Examples of early covers—from high school bands to obscure UK singles—point to the band’s immediate impact on musicianship and repertoire.

Academic and Fan Perspectives (17:21, 18:03)

• Dr. Rebecca Adams discusses Deadhead culture's early academic study and enduring live performance practice.
• The spread of Dead music was organic—bands would blend a few Dead songs into broader sets, forming a grassroots jam band culture.

Global Transmission: India and the Hippie Trail (30:09–38:45)

• Sanjay Mishra details how Dead records made their way to Calcutta via the overland "hippie trail"—music traded for cash, hashish, and connections.
• Dead music opened up jamming and improvisational possibilities for Indian musicians, blending with psychedelia and fostering new scenes.
• Cultural pushback included accusations of "spreading Yankee culture," highlighting tensions between global American counterculture and local politics.

Sanjay Mishra (33:37):

"We found the Dead ... China Cat Sunflower was among the songs we picked to learn. One of the hardest things was figuring out the lyrics because the accent was so different."

• Mishra would eventually meet Garcia decades later and record with him, closing a personal musical loop.

Mishra on Garcia (45:49):

"I'm not laughing at this. ... I'm laughing that you guys had a set list. And the Grateful Dead in 30 years could not put together a set list, but you guys did."

Regional Scenes: New York, Long Island, Virginia, and Beyond (48:20–53:01)

• Jeff Matson (now of Dark Star Orchestra) shares how Dead-inspired bar bands built robust local scenes—weekly gigs with devoted followings and parking lot subcultures.
• The dual identity as both Dead interpreters and original artists was bittersweet; being taken seriously for innovation proved difficult.

Jeff Matson (50:18):

"We had a scene going in the '80s ... it was a blessing and a curse because we had a good following because we played the Grateful Dead well. But no one ever really took us seriously as an original band because we had a reputation of being really good at playing Grateful."

The Avant-Garde & Punk Connection (55:19–61:51)

• Henry Kaiser and others on the SST label (home to Black Flag, Meat Puppets) found kinship between Dead improvisation and experimental punk/avant-garde.
• Kaiser's story: He records "Dark Star" with the label’s blessing and even collaborates with lyricist Robert Hunter, who sends a special cassette of spun lyrics.

Henry Kaiser (58:43):

"I feel like Dark Star is this external entity that reaches out, plays through people in a different way than the other ones ... it's like a magic spell at the end of Dark Star."

• Kaiser's perspective: the best Dead tradition is irreverent, experimental, and unbound by genre rules—mirroring the Dead's own ethos.

The Pull Between Tribute and Originality (64:48–67:21)

• Trey Anastasio (Phish) on the struggle to honor the Dead's influence while forging a distinct artistic path.
• Phish began by playing Dead covers (emulating their university gigs); Trey later vetoed Dead covers to focus on originality and avoid dependency on another’s culture.

Trey Anastasio (66:54):

"I walked into band practice and [said], 'No more Dead ever.' ... it was all original compositions from the beginning and all trying to find our own voice."

• Trey's deep takeaway wasn't just the musical content but the Dead’s model of community, inclusivity, and exploration.

The Grateful Dead as Musical Architecture (27:05–29:57; 72:25)

• David Gans and Gary Lambert explore these themes:
  • The Dead’s music offers "spontaneous midair architecture"—democratic, improvisational, and endlessly mutable.
  • The challenge and joy of improvising, jamming, and straddling tradition versus innovation.
  • The risk of pigeonholing as a Dead interpreter versus the thrill of taking the music somewhere new.

David Gans (27:05):

"Music could go deeper and ... you could make music that was spontaneous. And it wasn't about perfecting the canonical incarnation of a song."

Gary Lambert (72:25):

"It's so much fun to play. ... They just have a great feel ... And you can take it anywhere you want, and you can be as faithful with it or as heretical with it as you want. It's a beautiful little field to run around in."

Memorable Moments, Reflections & Quotes

• Zias' backstage moments with Pigpen and Garcia, with the ultimate advice: "Do your own stuff, kid." (15:16)
• Sanjay Mishra’s cross-cultural journey from Calcutta to recording with Garcia, and the laughter at set lists (45:49)
• Henry Kaiser channeling "Dark Star" and involving Robert Hunter in his cover—not just paying homage, but summoning the music as living ritual (58:43)
• Trey Anastasio’s determination for Phish to find its own voice, even as the ghost of Dead music lingered (66:54)

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• Dennis McNally (05:09):
  "The Deadheads claimed the music back from the band, they said, it's our music."

• John Zias (15:16):
  "Do your own stuff, kid. That's all [Jerry Garcia] kept telling me."

• Sanjay Mishra (45:49):
  "I'm laughing that you guys had a set list. And the Grateful Dead in 30 years could not put together a set list, but you guys did."

• David Gans (27:05):
  "I've often referred to it as spontaneous midair architecture."

• Henry Kaiser (58:43):
  "Dark Star is this external entity that reaches out, plays through people… like a magic spell at the end of Dark Star."

• Trey Anastasio (66:54):
  "No more Dead ever... it was all original compositions from the beginning and all trying to find our own voice."

• Gary Lambert (72:25):
  "You can be as faithful with it or as heretical with it as you want. It’s a beautiful little field to run around in."

Important Segments & Timestamps

• Introduction & Theme Statement: 00:00–03:22
• The Dead as a Genre / Dead Tribute Band Explosion: 03:18–06:31
• Early Dead Covers & Influence – John Zias & Cavalry: 08:56–16:38
• Academic Insights & the ‘70s Cover Band Scene: 17:21–20:41
• Sanjay Mishra & the Dead in India: 30:09–38:45
• Mishra Meets Garcia / Setlist Anecdote: 43:07–46:04
• Jeff Matson, Long Island Scenes, and the Zen Tricksters: 48:20–53:01
• Punk/Avant-Garde Dead – Henry Kaiser & Greg Ginn: 55:19–61:51
• Phish and the Pull of Dead Tradition – Trey Anastasio: 64:48–67:21
• Reflections on Dead as Musical Architecture & Genre: 72:14–73:25

Conclusion

This episode reveals how, for generations of musicians globally, the Grateful Dead aren’t just a band—they’re an ever-expanding musical universe, a toolkit of improvisation, tradition, and boundary-breaking. Dead music is an invitation: to reimagine, reinterpret, and to “do your own stuff,” as Garcia advised a persistent teen fan. Whether you’re in a bar in Long Island, an auditorium in Calcutta, or a punk club in Phoenix, playing Dead bridges past and future, individuality and community, reverence and rebellion.

Listen here: GOOD OL' GRATEFUL DEADCAST - "Playing Dead, Part 1"

[End of Episode Summary]