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- [00:00]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Foreign.
- [00:10]
Jesse David Fox
Hello and welcome to Good One, a podcast about jokes. I'm your host, Jesse David Fox. Happy New Year. We're going to wind down 2024 with a tradition we've been doing for for years now on the podcast, talking about the best specials of the year with Katherine Van Erdon, a critic over at Vulture. As usual, we'll be going through the list Catherine made for the site. Not as usual this year made a list. I've been doing this monthly column for Vulture where I recommend specials, so I had a lot I wanted to rank. Our lists are similar, but they are also different. I know that's a very enticing tease for the episode. We'll put both lists and links in the show. Notes One thing to note, our lists were made in early December before certain specials were made available. So, for example, Nate Bargetsi, Michelle Bouto and Ronnie Chang are not on our list. We when they might otherwise have been. So here is Katherine Van Arendonck and the best specials of 2024. I am here with Katherine Van Arendonk. Thank you for joining me.
- [01:13]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Thank you so much for having me back.
- [01:16]
Jesse David Fox
So we have these conversations biannually. Biannually, right. That's twice a year or every other year means both. But in this case it means twice a year where we talk about lists. And usually we start by going, okay, you are tasked with making this list. How do you conceptually approach it? So that is the question. Again, you're tasked with making these lists. How do you conceptually approach it?
- [01:41]
Katherine Van Arendonk
This year? Yeah, I think every year I try to come at it with some memory of what I did last year and what the concept was. But it also feels like every year you're like, well, but last year's was this whole set of these were the specific rules of that year. And this year feels different. This year is this thing. And the other thing about lists, which I think I usually say, but it is still true now, is that lists ultimately are essentially an act of autobiography. And so it is me looking at my own feelings over the course of a year and thinking about what I cared about and what stuck stuck with me and what bothered me. And so that there's I hope that somebody can look at this list, even if they don't share my particular comedy tastes and be like, yes, I respect and understand your opinion, but I also don't have any expectation that somebody looks at this list and says here, objectively, by some objective measure, are the best and like least good measures of what comedy is. They are reflections of What I care about captured in a moment like an impressionistic painting.
- [03:01]
Jesse David Fox
So we'll go through your list in descending order. I, for the first time in many years, made my own list. However, there's enough similarities that we're not going to go like, doot, doot, doot, doot, doot. That is me going 10 10. At some point in this episode, I will reveal how our lists differ, but we're not going to start there. We're going to start with your number 10. Ali Wong, single Lady Netflix I really do believe that 40 is the golden age.
- [03:33]
Katherine Van Arendonk
To get divorced.
- [03:35]
Jesse David Fox
It is perfect. The age range of who I could date is huge. I could go as low as 25 and then I could go as high as 55. If you're 55, I got questions for you. Like, can you go on a brisk walk? Can you lift heavy things? Can you digest red meat without getting a swollen toe the next day? Can you puedes es possible?
- [04:06]
Katherine Van Arendonk
So this is a special that so my number 10 and my number one share a quality that I am increasingly interested in about comedy specials, but that I very few specials I think, play to as much as these two do. Clearly, based on my list placement, I think Ali Wong's, the way that she plays with this idea is less interesting than my number one pick. But nevertheless.
- [04:39]
Jesse David Fox
And the idea is having the name Ally.
- [04:41]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yes, 100%, that is correct.
- [04:43]
Jesse David Fox
Spoiler alert for number one.
- [04:45]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah, it's a very short list of comedians who are really working in this space, but I find it a fascinating one. And no, the thing that I am most interested by this special is the way that it works in the context of what Ali Wong's specials have been before, and the way that it plays with the Persona that she has been presenting sort of from her early work, particularly from Baby Cobra, which is what most people will know her from, which is this special that she did when she was pregnant with her first child. And that special is a lot about pregnancy and what we think about sex and like women and femininity, but also very much about her marriage and what she imagines is her role as a wife. And so we fast forward lo these many years and find her no longer pregnant and no longer married. And the thing about Baby Cobra was that it was this really striking affront to the idea that relatability for women meant likability and that pregnancy was supposed to look like a specific kind of thing. And what I think most people found, so a lot of viewers found very resonant in that idea, was the sort of Way that she presents both marriage and maternity as awful. Sort of like heavy metal kinds of experiences that are best described or sort of best presented through. What is this? Like, almost like a shock jock kind of comedy. And now I think her perspective on divorce has a similar sense of relatability that does not look like likability as it is traditionally conceived. She talks about divorce in these kinds of glowing. Like she. It is a special that looks like the photo that is allegedly of Nicole Kidman leaving her Tom Cruise divorce. Right. Although she has said that's not what that photo is, but I think we know it's not a set. Nicole. Sorry. And she talks about her life very frankly in a way that I think it's. So. It continues to build on this Persona that she has that she's been developing, but even goes even further into this embrace of herself. I don't want to say as a villain, because she's not as a villain, but this embrace of herself as somebody who does not care about whether you like the person that she is. And it's really exciting and fun to watch somebody just, you know, talk a lot of shit about famous people and be able to feel so strongly like she doesn't care.
- [07:48]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah. I mean, I do think this is her best special since Baby Cobra. And it's partly because there's such a vibrancy to Baby Cobra. It felt so present. These are things that happened to her and she's telling them. And it feels like there's. I wouldn't say no filter, but less filter. I mean, there's the filter of. I'm gonna say, funny, but like that feeling. And it feels like directly from the source. And then the next special felt like not as present. It felt like, I gotta keep on kind of talking about the space. I have fewer stories to talk about. I remember there was a story. There are multiple stories that. In the second one, I think that has other people's stories. And you're like, oh, you know. And then the third one was interesting because it. I believe I said, unless she gets a divorce, this special is not interesting. And then she did. So I was like, oh, wow, that is a very interesting relic. Because she. It's entire special about not getting divorced. And then you're like, oh, it did reveal your feelings. And this special does feel like it has a direct connection to her real life. And it feels like in so much is like, what is exciting about being an Ali Wong fan is this sort of feeling of like, well, she's showing us the sort of like, less Presentable parts of the everyday life in a way. And she is not glamorizing it, but she is valorizing it. And that is very satisfying on a sort of visceral level. And I think just sort of like, she does a really great job. This is what she is best at, in my opinion, is setting up what she's going to talk about for the next five minutes or whatever. Just sort of say a sentence and you're like, cool, we're gonna play in that space. However, the thing that this is not on my top 10. This probably would be in the sort of low teens. But, like, I had a couple reservations. One is after she then does the very good work of sort of setting it up. I do not think she puts as much work in the sort of, like, I'm now going to pay this off aspect. I do not think there is a lot of strong quote unquote, like, punchline writing. And this is just sort of like, in so much as these lists are autobiographical of us is in my attempt to rid myself of the authenticity trap or whatever that I and you and I and we have talked about. I am not trying to reward confession for confession's sake, which is not only thing that's happening here. This is not her just sharing details about her life. But, like, I do think there is less interesting creative work done beyond the sort of excitement of a person confessing. And the thing that I wondered, and this is not really, there's not a direct answer to this, but the thing that I kept on thinking about is, like, if all of this wasn't true, if every story she was saying was made up, would this be an exciting hour to watch? And I was like, I'm not sure. While there are other specials on this list that have amounts of autobiography that I think there's more in the telling that reveals something about them beyond just sort of use of the details of my life. This is not to discredit her as a comedian at all. This is me saying why, Instead of number 10, she's made me number 12. That's my thing you had here so you can defend your position. But again, this is, you know, final table of Top Chef where they're like, we're detail.
- [11:36]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think. I mean, I was. We had talked a little bit about your question about whether before, about whether if it were all made up, it would still be an exciting special. And because all of what we see on stage is always a Persona, and because what we're watching is that versus the Persona that we've been presented before. I think it would still be so exciting as, like, the development of the character that she plays in public, which who knows what. Only she knows what relationship it has with her actual lived experience. And I have no idea. All I have is the specials. And so what I then look at is like, yeah, I would be equally excited because I was excited by it.
- [12:22]
Jesse David Fox
That's fair. I also don't. There's an empowerment aspect of it that I have a harder time with this. I agree with you where it's like, isn't it so great to be me right now and you as the audience that is meant to reflect back on you, the audience or whatever, however that's supposed to work. And I think it's a weird tone that rubs me the wrong way. And I can imagine might rub some people the wrong way who are looking to her to, you know, like, in so much as, like, being pregnant sucks or can suck and giving birth sucks or can suck. And then she was talking about how it sucks. That must to that audience member been like, oh, this is a huge relief. Someone's talking about it. If you are having a divorce and you are not rich and famous, her talking about how great her divorce is might make you feel actually worse about yourself.
- [13:18]
Katherine Van Arendonk
I feel less about that specifically as related to divorce and more about the trap of as you get more and more famous, you can no longer then rely on the idea that you can also look at the audience and be like, your lives can be like mine.
- [13:37]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah. On to number nine from Katherine Van Erdog's list of the best specials of 2024. Langston Kerman's bad poetry from Netflix. You're telling me I'm the best thing that's ever happened to my parents? You. You're the best thing that's ever happened to your parents. Most of us still get embarrassed when we have to read out loud. The other day, I was reading my daughter a bedtime story and I ran into the word pterodactyl. Fucked up my whole evening. I'm just sitting there like, what? What the is a Peter Rodacitill C C C? This is the government trying to put the names of prescription drug medications in our children's books. They trying to get my baby hooked on this. They trying to make my daughter a Peter row head.
- [14:37]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Every year there is a special like this where I hear for quite a while that it's great. I watch some of it. I think, oh, that's nice. But it doesn't really hit me. And then I keep hearing that it's great. And I go back to it and I go, oh, everyone was right. It's great. And that this year, this is what that one was. It was a special that I kept hearing, you know, just little bit of, you know, this. This was such a great time. I felt nice. I had a lovely hour with this, and I knew I needed to go back to it. And when I did, I was like, oh, this is. I think the niceness was one of the things that I found most surprising about how people were characterizing it. And I get it. He is such a genial, like, affable person to spend those first several seconds with. You look at him, you look at his whole demeanor. You look at this kind of. It's shot in this very nice, personal crowd space. He's, like, in a bar, and you think, what a. What a lovely, chipper guy. I think one of the jokes that really best characterizes this, he's talking about being a teacher, and you think, oh, of course, he was in education. Of course. This is. What a. What a sweet, endearing thing. And then as that joke rolls along, he just is like, kids are awful. They say awful, awful things to you. I think awful things about them. This is the reality of what is going on underneath. And that interplay I found so appealing, I think he is able to essentially weaponize what looks like the geniality of his initial presentation. I love whenever that kind of thing gets played well, I'm such a sucker for it that, like, I'm such a sweet person. And then the knife goes in thing. And I found this special to be really accomplished in that sense because it comes off in the performance, but also in the sort of structure of the jokes and how he sort of is deliberately building it. There is also this very weird. And I don't think it necessarily works by the end, but his framing, these tags that he does, where he's playing these voicemails from old men who he has sort of catfished on dating apps who then send him these voice memos. And they're funny. Like, I understand why they are in here. They're so strange. But I kept. Particularly because he ends with one of them. And it was such a weird. It was like playing a little dissonant chord at the end of a piece. And I really loved the way that. That was just like this odd little tone and goodbye. So I have thought about that special more than I initially would have expected.
- [17:38]
Jesse David Fox
So this is probably. This is not on my list, but It'd probably be 11. And it was the hardest one to not include. And I will get into later about this sort of philosophy for why and for the most part, I love it. It is also the special of almost any of the year. I'd most recommend to a person who just, like, wants a special on, like, a Friday night or something like that. And it's because, like, the joke writing is very good, and all the jokes in it are good jokes. And it's interesting this. This. This theme will end after this one. But, like, there is a mirror image quality to your list where you're 10 and your 1 are in conversation, and in some ways your 9 and your 2 are in con because they're both about, like, what it's like to be a poetically minded person. And there is a form, follow, functions quality a little bit to this in that it's. The setting is meant to feel like a poetry reading type space. And he's in it, but he's telling jokes, and that's a contrast, but his jokes are poetic. So there is, like, it's a richer presentation for these types of jokes that I think without that, you might not even really know what to be paying attention to where. How it is shot very much is, like, pay attention to the words he's saying and the way he's saying them, and it is lovely, and it, like, sparks your brain and it surprises you, even though it might be like the third tag and he has, like, a new little way he can describe how you should feel about his baby or whatever. It's hard to even say this is a negative. It's just sort of like the thing about a first hour special is it just sometimes you approach it like, I got all these great jokes that are related because they're all me. And that is great. It's, like, really important to do that because what if the entire world has been desperately waiting for your joke style and you. Your next special will be shot in Madison Square Garden or whatever. Like, you need to do it. It just is when you have all those jokes and those jokes are good, it's hard not to approach a special like this, being, like, I'm on displaying myself as an ad for why you should see me on the road or whatever. Unless, like, I'm trying to make a cohesive piece. And again, this is Top Chef final table stuff. Like, this is the smallest things. And if, like, truly, if, like, Langston's next special will be different, and that's great. Just sort of literally like, oh, the things that I have after it, I think are doing a thing to my value system for this list that I ultimately decided I'm rewarding. But, like, I don't know. I wouldn't. If I, like, if I was Langston Kerman's manager, I wouldn't be like, do something different.
- [20:27]
Katherine Van Arendonk
No, no. And the other thing about it is that it is a first special where you're like, wow, I am very excited to see what Special two looks like, you know, which is what a first special should be. But it also feels like one of those specials that is as much a demonstration of future potential as it is current appreciation.
- [20:46]
Jesse David Fox
Is good that that sows the seeds that will be brought up again later about another thing. But we will get into that. We're not there yet. Number eight from your list, Rama Yousef's More Feelings. Max, I'm done apologizing. I'm done saying that we're peaceful. For 20 years, we've had to prove.
- [21:05]
Katherine Van Arendonk
To people that we're safe, right?
- [21:07]
Jesse David Fox
Every time you turn on cnn, there's like some Arab dude talking about how Islam means. Means peace.
- [21:11]
Katherine Van Arendonk
You know that guy, but he's always shouting it.
- [21:17]
Jesse David Fox
He's always like, we come in peace. You're like, bro, that's the slogan for aliens. That's what aliens say before they take over the fucking planet, bro.
- [21:30]
Katherine Van Arendonk
I'm done. I'm done saying sorry. Yeah. So actually, Rami is the other one that I think plays in the same thing that I was interested this year with both of the alleys, which is how we think about specials in sequence with each other and in conversation with each other. And I mean, this is literally called More Feelings. His previous one was called Feelings. And it is a special that culminates as we talked about earlier this year when we were talked about. This special when we recorded midway through the year, culminates in this incredible set piece of a story about his childhood and this book report that he was supposed to write and did not, but the way his father, you know, believes that he did, and this incredible feeling of ambiguity that he is left with and still has. And it is. It is the kind of special that I feel like I will always think about in the context of this year more than some of the others, but partly because politically it is so rooted in both the kind of accident of its timing and then what else was going on in the world, but then also the fact that Yusuf is just always connected to those kinds of, I think, thinking about those kinds of ideas. And the world is always involved with Israel, Palestine and with the presidential election and all of that, all of that kind of thing. And I gotta say, a special that places itself in this incredibly painfully fraught, ambiguous, refusing to find resolution space fits very well with how I, sitting at the end of 2024, look back and think about what, what the year feels like. So more feelings is also often my feelings is where I am.
- [23:43]
Jesse David Fox
So this one also is not on my list. And this I have an extremely specific complaint that I decided on mid year, decided on this summer for reasons that will be clear very soon. And it's partly like from talking to Ali Siddiq. This is foreshadowing, but like he was like a thing. The difference between a set or an hour and a special is perspective. And you can't do a special in his mind about something that just happened to you. And I've never heard that value system said. And I decided, what if I agree with that? Right? So then that means I have a really hard time with topicality in specials because I want it to be a lasting thing. And so I decided in the summer that if your special, one special has a joke about how Joe Biden is running for president and any. That's it. If you have a joke about Joe Biden is running for president in your special, I will not put it on a top 10 list that I made that is maybe unfair to specifically Rahmi Youssef. But there's also because if you had watched as many specials as we have, every special from a sort of like more club comedian type has a joke about how Joe Biden is old. And I'm like, none of these things are specials. Rami's is the best special that does it. But it is still a standard that I hold. It doesn't totally work like, well, it's a time capsule of that month. It just sort of doesn't exactly play that way when you watch it in a few years. And I do think the. There is the special is a little bit at war with its desire to have perspective and its desire to be in the moment, which is a thing that I think stand up will always sort of have to be a war with. Because like stand up as a live art form, you do want it to be very much in the moment and you do want the comedian to be commenting on something that happened that day. That is the beauty and gift of, of stand up as an art form. I would never tell a comedian not to do those jokes, period. Don't do topical jokes. It's sort of like in many ways your duty broadly defined. But the special is A sort of different thing. It is a lasting piece. And obviously there are movies and books and whatever that have topical references. But like it is, it is a decision that I had that I do think re watching it now, you're like, oh, this doesn't represent 2024. This represents these months. And I do think the best parts of the special, even watching it now, are parts that felt like he worked on it four years ago. And because you can see the quality difference of that work and the stuff that he's working on for years, that still feels connected to the moment, does feel like it says more about the moment, does give you more insight in the moment than the stuff that was directly commenting on it. And that's how I had a sense that like maybe I'm onto something about what is frustrating about it as an artifact. Despite the fact that he did a lot of good work in it. Like, I do think the special, when it came out four people probably worked. But then again, like this is the end of the year when I rewatched it. I have a harder time with it than I did then. So again, this is like, would have been an honorable mention for me, but like didn't make the top 10. The other thing which I believe I mentioned last time is Rami is an autumn or summer.
- [27:13]
Katherine Van Arendonk
But we disagree about this argument.
- [27:16]
Jesse David Fox
And I don't think shooting him in.
- [27:19]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Blues, it was deliberate, was I? No, it's a special about not feeling great. Like, why would making him look gorgeous.
- [27:30]
Jesse David Fox
Deliberately gorgeous, I don't know.
- [27:31]
Katherine Van Arendonk
At odds with what the.
- [27:33]
Jesse David Fox
I do think making him look like a little baby in giant clothes did work. Okay, now number seven on your list. Kyle Kananes dirtnap YouTube.com I'm like, this how. This is how I'm winning over this neighborhood. I'm going to move into suburbs. This is how I'm going to win over the neighborhood. I'm going to be full size candy bars guy on Halloween. That's how I'm going to be. Everybody loved full size candy bar guy as a kid. As a kid you're like, that guy rolls, don't egg is. This guy rules. Everybody loves full size candy bar guy. And that's how I was gonna start it that first Halloween. I'm gonna be full size candy bar dude. Here's the thing I did not realize cause I was coming in with hot city energy. Is that in the suburbs when you just show up in the beginning of a pandemic with out of state plates and then just try to be full size candy Bar guy without having children of your own. It has the inverse effect. Just sitting out on my porch under the one light that was working. Cause I didn't get around to fixing the rest of them. Just waving king size snickers going, how can I tell if you're Spider man unless you come closer?
- [28:46]
Katherine Van Arendonk
This is. I love Kyle Kinneon's work. I always do. I tend to watch his specials and think what a great time that I had. And it was particularly because of this one story that he told. And often that one story represents a third of the hour and the rest of it's kind of a bunch of stuff. And so what distinguishes dirtknap and why it immediately sort of belongs on this list for me is it is the special where finally the one story that he tells that is the great story is the vast majority of. Of the special. Nobody else is doing it like this. And I think it would be higher on my list if what is happening with the rest of the hour didn't feel quite so like I need to fill something else so that I can. Because this story can't be a full hour long. It is a story about. About COVID We haven't talked about it yet, but I will say this is the first year since 2020 where I felt like I wasn't watching a bunch of specials that were still mostly comedians who were still trying to work out what to do with themselves after 2020. And most of them have nothing to do with that. But I do think we are still in this place where. And it's true in television as well, a lot of things that I was watching this year that had anything to do with the pandemic or thinking about, like, you know, wow, the world's been really strange. Are finally like, nobody wants to touch it with a ten foot pole. And I completely understand why that is the case. And yet whenever I found something that did and was clearly doing it because somebody was like, I have to. How are we not still thinking about it? That there is this release of it that it just. I'm so grateful for, because it feels finally like it's like we can actually process this about who we are as people, rather than the sourdough jokes. Um, I'm talking specifically about the Decameron, by the way. Everyone go watch the Decameron, which was a fantastic Netflix show, but that and Dirt Nap are sort of paired in my mind.
- [31:18]
Jesse David Fox
Yes, 100% agree. It is a thing that we both talked. There was too much work about and then. But clearly not enough. Yeah, and then audiences were like, well, we don't like it. And then you're like, well, some. The thing is, like, the artists jobs are to confront these things that we as a society need to talk about. And we don't like it and make it likable. That's the work. It's hard. And a lot of people fail, but a lot of people like, what if we just don't fail and do something completely else? And Kyle did not do that. He's like, we're gonna be in it and we're gonna talk about what life was like, was not cliche. We're gonna be in the house that I was in and the explorations that I went into and how I felt it as a person being surveilled or whatever. Like, you know, the. The basic idea of like, he moved to the suburbs during the beginning of the pandemic, and it's him and his wife and they don't have kids. And like, what does that feel like? Then they adopt this old decrepit cat. The thing is, like, it's the idea of like, well, it's not the hour because he doesn't have an hour. The story's 50 minutes. The special is about 20 minutes longer than that. And there are specials on this list that are about as long as that joke is. I don't think that's good. I think you should be able to do an hour. I don't know why, but I think you should be able to release an hour. I just think you should. Anyway, so the reason that it's not is that Kyle Kanane doesn't want to put out a one person show. Like, I interviewed him for many hours. I've talked to him. He would have to be a completely different person to accept the part where he goes, I just put out a special that it's one story and imagine it. You've seen enough of his work. Imagine him coming out and having to just go into a story. And it reminded me of. There's that Pen and Oswalt special after his wife died. And he does crowd work out of nowhere in the middle of it. And it's not good crowd work. And it goes on for so long. But the thing that it does convey is that he does not want to talk about his wife. And so. But this is a different. This is a much lower stake of this. This is. He can't. Kyle can't accept the pretension of being like, here's a just an app. Here's a special and just one story. I like when YouTube specials feel like YouTube specials, in so much as that's that exists, it can be a little bit more ragged and it works. When things are super polished on YouTube.
- [34:02]
Katherine Van Arendonk
It feels like they were supposed to be somewhere else. Constantly thinking about, yeah.
- [34:06]
Jesse David Fox
And there's also like almost like a punk rock. I mean, it's not like YouTube is a smaller corporation than Netflix is, but like in so much as like, you're an outsider to whatever the mainstream industry is like, it should feel like we didn't get any notes. We're just like sort of whatever, even though no one's getting any notes. And that's a problem probably. And it really is an incredible work, this joke. Also the parts before it are funny. It's just sort of like it's hard to know what to make of like 16 minutes about fast and the Furious.
- [34:43]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah. Yeah.
- [34:46]
Jesse David Fox
It is on my list. It is slightly higher because I have something that we'll get to in a bit that is not on my list at all. But like, there is. How do I put this? He really is like a capital G, great stand up comedian.
- [35:01]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah.
- [35:02]
Jesse David Fox
Like he like, sure, he puts out specials because he can make. He can generate great stand up comedy work. But like in so much as specials are advertisements to see a person live, I don't know if a person is putting out better specials on that standard while also creating work that is like, I think, deeply meaningful and considered and like pushes the form forward. Do you have anything else to say about him? Like, nope. So it's great. You should watch it right now. But you have to be able to sit down for the full thing. This is like a crazy thing to have to tell people. Guess what? You have to watch the whole thing in order. They're not like, you can't jump in and out. So we're at the moment, we're at number seven again. Your number seven was I number six. But my seven through ten were not on your list at all. How. Okay, pause. How do we list them all or do we go them in order? I guess we're going to. I'm going to go in order and then we'll say a little thing about it and. But not a long thing about it.
- [36:15]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Okay.
- [36:16]
Jesse David Fox
Because you're you. I don't deserve such a thing. Unless you really. We can go longer on Hasan.
- [36:23]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Okay.
- [36:23]
Jesse David Fox
Which is my 8. Yeah, I like Sal's better anyway. So my 7 through 10 are not on your list at all. We will go through those in a maybe more abbreviated manner. But you know, it's my show, so I should say what I liked. So my number 10 was Hannah Einbinder's. Is it Hannah Einbinder? No, it's Hannah. Hannah Einbinder. Hannah. Hannah.
- [36:48]
Katherine Van Arendonk
I thought it was Hannah, but I.
- [36:50]
Jesse David Fox
All right, let's say Hannah, because if you said it, then any listeners won't. All right, so my number 10 is Hannah Einbinder's. Everything Must Go Max. So part of my standard is, what are the specials I will remember from this year? What are the specials I will continue thinking about past this year? Not the comedians I'll continue thinking about or the comedians who I'll be excited to see, but the specials I will think about. And there is a major flaw about Hannah's special that I will allow you to say. But the thing that I will remember is it looks not like any other special, both in terms of huge visual swings where, like, they break the sort of, like, basic. I'm talking to an audience quality to it, and there's lighting, blah, blah. And also subtly, the light changes to provide momentum to stories. Sandy Hoenig directed this first special. She did this is Hannah very boldly using her cachet as a max talent to be like, I want my friend who I believe can do the special, to direct it. And the special has a lot of vision for what she would like comedy to be like. And in a time where what would once be called alternative comedy is at a nadir, is that the right word is at a low. It is nice for a person to have a special that largely there are exceptions, are bits. They are not jokes. They are pieces that you would put up. When everyone's doing regular stand up, you go like, here is the moon. Right, Whatever. That's an example of a joke from the thing. And all that is exciting to me, and I will remember it. And I do think on those aspects, they succeeded in terms of having vision, articulating that vision, and having that vision being distinct and exciting for the form. The reason it's not higher is probably for what you're about to say, but it's on my list, so I don't have to say anything negative about it.
- [38:55]
Katherine Van Arendonk
I agree that it has vision. The moon is my favorite bit in the special. My major issue with it is that it is so much vision and so beautifully presented. And then the things that are being beautifully presented I find lacking. I feel like if you're gonna tell a story about your first period, it needs to sort of be a story that has momentum. I think if you are doing bits about sort of your childhood and your family, they need to move somewhere other than just the sort of bald presentation of the facts. And I also think that all of those bits and the whole visual approach of it would have been much more appealing to me if what I was being communicated ultimately was always on the same level of weirdness as putting your hand, putting your head inside the curtains and like being a weird moon.
- [39:55]
Jesse David Fox
So, all right, that's 10. Nine is Marlon Wayne's Good grief Prime video. This is the most unusual special and I will never forget it. There are images from this that will burn into my brain. I just wish freaking Freud was alive. Because this Marlon Wayne's what is like truly Freud's dream. Freud wrote a whole book about jokes and one, he could only imagine a thing like this would exist, which is a special about caring for his parents and also what it's like to be a youngest child. But it is so messy in its presentation. And that reflects the life and his relationship with his parents who already had tons of kids and seemingly treated him like just a little friend. And they're just like. There's this like really long part where he's just talking about his parents genitalia that is so otherworldly. And no one's touching it. No one's. No one's near except for him.
- [40:57]
Katherine Van Arendonk
He appears to sometimes have to touch it.
- [40:59]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, sure. I meant touching the area.
- [41:00]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Oh, I know.
- [41:01]
Jesse David Fox
The comfort. Like so he's. So. There's just a moment where he's like imagining what his mom's vagina would look like now.
- [41:09]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah.
- [41:09]
Jesse David Fox
And he's like. I believe he compares to like. I imagine it's like an old camel eating straw or something. And then he does the face of that. And he created a world. And you go, that's 100%. You nailed what you think it is and what that looks like to your brain. And we as the audience feel it viscerally. And then you and the audience go, what is happening? It is astounding the ways he values certain things. He'll be like, the one thing I didn't like about my dad is he just beat us too much. You're like. You say that so casually. It is a fascinating thing and I will never forget it. Is it like precise? It is not, but it is like, it is special.
- [41:52]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah. No, I mean, this is a much more difficult call for me to make than the previous one. And I. I was really blown away by it. Ultimately, I think the messiness that you're talking about became a bigger issue for me as I was trying to think about, like, what. What this special would be doing on a. On a list. But. But there are parts of it that you're 100% right. Are so striking. And. And I. You know, specials really shouldn't be probably a thing where we all show up and just watch somebody work through their stuff. Except sometimes when you do it, you're like, oh, actually, this is so much more compelling than if somebody had done a more polished version of this. And that's what this is. And by the end, you know, he breaks down on stage and the audience is, like, clapping for him to try to get through it. It is framed by voicemails from his mom, which are just devastating to listen to. I did find myself spending a fair amount of time with the Wayans family Wikipedia page, which is a high compliment from me. You should watch it.
- [43:08]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah. All right. Moving on to number eight, a special that if you told me at the beginning of the year would be here, I would have been shocked for a variety of reasons. It's Hasan Minhaj's off with his Head. Netflix. I'm part of a generation of men that don't read but listen to podcasts. Terrifying. All my homies out here texting me alpha male memes. Just, hard times make hard men. Hard men make good times. Good times make soft men. A society will never value its men until the wolves are at the door. I'm like, sanjay, you're a software engineer. Shut up the up. Why? Why are you texting me like you're Julius Caesar? Whatever, bro. Mamba mentality. Mamba mentality. Sanjay, you blew your knee out playing pickle ball, and you're quoting Kobe Bryant. If Kobe knew you were quoting him, he would put you in a helicopter and crash that himself. So, you know, as I said, like, how well I remember, and it was a few things about this special that was really jarring. One, I did not, I guess, expect the Breaking Bad turn. Yeah, I know, and I should have, because. But what I definitely did not expect is that he would get that. That is also, like, he's aware of it. I remember I talked to a comedian before any of this stuff happened, and they're like, the thing that makes Hasan redeemable is he's self aware. And that means he's both aware of how he is and how he's perceived, and he's aware that he's not, like, Breaking Bad and not aware that that's what he's doing. Like, a lot of comedians in his position would just pivot to fuck the mainstream media. Media is bullshit.
- [45:02]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Cancel culture.
- [45:03]
Jesse David Fox
But instead he's like, this is happening to me. Hassan Medaj. And there's such a subversive power to him doing it and him knowing that he's doing it. And the thing that he gets and why this special, I think is so fascinating to watch is you go, oh, it's just cynical that he's now pivoting to, like, being like, more edgy now that he's like, not going to be beloved by New Yorker NPR types. But it is that. And you're like, it is that. But it's a special about the cynicism of his generation and of people that grew up in what he calls Bezerstan, which is not black or white America. And because of those things together, it is a really fascinating portrait that then became a word I hate saying, but prescient. Because it's so corny when things are prescient. But truly, it has a level of insight about what we would now call male voters or whatever, young male voters. That it is the type of thing someone will make next year. And he made it before it came out, but after Joe Biden already dropped out. So he got through that through a technicality. And he really, I mean, there are jokes in it that are as cynical as a person can be about the situation that I do think will be at the time. Maybe some of his audience, especially his white audience, would be like, push back upon or whatever, but now will not forget, which is the sort of like, there's a moment where he says, like, what are the rules for us to support you as a politician? And basically he's like, we want a green card, we want jobs, whatever. And it's like. And don't bomb our country, but like, we're flexible on the last one if you give us the early ones. And that's. That's a dark perspective. And I'm not saying that. I truly am not saying that applies to everybody. But like, to see him say that in this special was like, wow. He still has certain things that are frustrating about his work punchline wise. But, like, it isn't. It is a really effective watch and I think it's a really well paced. It is a clip that is different than the things we're used to of him, but it just really moves. And I think. Kudos. Kudos to Austin.
- [47:33]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah, this is the one that. This was my hardest cut from the list. And I also love a deliberate Breaking Bad turn. It is the thing that I think Ellen should have done and could not. What an exciting thing. That would have been. This is almost slightly less surprising and slightly less sort of revelatory, precisely because it was, like, always a little bit of a. Clearly, something like this is already happening in your brain, but there is such an immense relief in watching somebody realize it and understand how to present it. I will also add that I think it is. Well, like, I think the space of it, where everyone is surrounding him, the amount of audience interaction he does, for me, is exactly the right amount of audience interaction in this era of the crowd work, where it really feels like he's perpetually indicting them for being there at all, and they are just lapping it up.
- [48:37]
Jesse David Fox
Like, you know, and there's that thing of, you see them, and now they're.
- [48:40]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Characters in this 100%, yes. Which is completely and perfectly in keeping with the entire ideology of what this special is. And also how his Persona has developed since from the beginning. The constant painful awareness of them looking at him and him looking at them feels presented here in a way where the last one was just, like, this adulation of people clapping for him, which was. It's really wild to think about in.
- [49:13]
Jesse David Fox
I know, the span of one special, that turn, and who knows if he would have made that turn anyway? Obviously, the New Yorkers are perpetuated. And I do think he handles it well in the special in that he does not glamorize it like, he does the opposite. He goes, I have a controversies tab on my Wikipedia page, and it's not a cool one. You're like. But it obviously informs a little bit about this sort of state of things. But. All right, so my number seven. So my number seven is Salvacano's Terrified, which is on YouTube.com and I don't know, it's like sometimes you make these lists and you go, what did I like the most? What I enjoy having, I will say. You know, we talk about these things. And I imagine a comedian who's like, I'm just a regular comic. I don't want to do this stuff. And I go, well, watch Sal's Special. It is a special. That is his type of comedy, which is stories in which he was a silly dummy, right? But there is a theme. It is not a complicated theme. It is just a theme. If you are good enough at writing jokes enough that you can film a special, which all of you are, you can choose from these jokes and go, which are the ones that we want to be put next to each other. And by doing that, we'll create some sort of portrait of who I Am as a person. And that is what he did. I knew almost nothing about Sal. I've not watched Impractical Jokers. I am sorry. But I was like, I got. I got who this guy is. He's a silly fun time guy who was scared and like had a process what that is. And it materializes in very whimsical ways. And I wouldn't say there's something bold about it. It just sort of like gives you the thing that it is promising it'll give you. And it is exactly it. And it feels cohesive. And he understood this thing that he wanted to make and not like, well, I got these jokes. I guess I have to film them. And I'll call it a special because that's the nomenclature that exists as a relic of the television era that specials were invented in.
- [51:22]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah. The only reason this is not on my list is totally unfair because it is the opposite of what Jesse just said. Except I also agree with Jesse, but it is this. It is this thing where sort of every story that he tells is gorgeous and fun and goofy by itself, but they do feel repetitive next to each other because there aren't the same. It's not until he gets to the last Rufus Wainwright section you feel like you're just kind of again back in this space where he is a child who is terrified. And yes, it is fun to watch it iterate through all of these different examples. But I do feel like the thing that would make this more exciting for me is if there were. Is if they had different flavors to them. They feel it is. It is rather than your box of chocolates where they have different fillings. It's like a very well executed executed, but the same. But it's the same one in the whole box.
- [52:21]
Jesse David Fox
Sure, yeah. Yeah. I mean, also, it really is a thing of like, it probably needed five sentences more.
- [52:27]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yes.
- [52:28]
Jesse David Fox
Literally like a sentence at the beginning.
- [52:29]
Katherine Van Arendonk
To just turn some things in different directions. Yeah.
- [52:32]
Jesse David Fox
Instead of like the moment.
- [52:34]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Once again, I was terrified.
- [52:36]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll be right back. More Catherine Van Arendonk and the best specials of 2024.
- [52:46]
Katherine Van Arendonk
It's a new year.
- [52:47]
Jesse David Fox
Maybe you're taking a month off from drinking, you know, dry January, and maybe you're replacing it with something else. Puff, puff, pass. Something like one in five people who do dry January say they're smoking weed instead. And more Americans are now smoking weed daily than drinking daily. Current president is into it.
- [53:07]
Katherine Van Arendonk
No one should be in jail merely.
- [53:08]
Jesse David Fox
For using or possessing marijuana, period. Future president is into it. I've had friends, and I've had others and doctors telling me that it's been absolutely amazing. The medical marijuana failed. President and former prosecutor was down to clown.
- [53:24]
Katherine Van Arendonk
People shouldn't have to go to jail for smoking weed.
- [53:27]
Jesse David Fox
Even health conscious brain worm guy likes it. My position on marijuana is that it should be federal legalized. Everyone's getting down with pot, but legislatively, we're still stuck with a hot mess in the United States today. Explained. Wherever you listen, come find us. And we're back with Catherine Van Arendonk going through the best specials of 2024. All right, so we're going to move forward through our list. So Kyle, as I mentioned, was my six. So your number six is my number five. But we will talk about it in the context of it being your number six, which is Courtney Perroso's Vanessa 5000, which was released on Dropout.
- [54:11]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Hello, my name is Vanessa 5000, and I am here to destroy humanity. Just kidding. I'm a sex robot. Ha ha. Para espanolo. Prima dos. Hola. Clowning. Clowning can be good. You've heard it here. First or second? Not second.
- [54:42]
Jesse David Fox
Well, not second. First for the second time.
- [54:44]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is one of those things where you sit down, you're like, what's this going to be? And then an hour later, you're like, okay. Wow. That absolutely accomplished a thing that I was honestly dubious was you were gonna be able to pull off. I mean, it is. We talk a lot about conceptually, what these things are. And this is incredibly important to think about conceptually because it is put together on the level of she is a sex robot, and this is developing and then sort of falling apart deliberately, entirely along those lines. And we need to talk about it conceptually because that is really where it's where it lives, how we are valuing it. But I do just want to set aside a moment to say, as a physical accomplishment, it is working harder and stronger than anyone else even dares to touch this year. If anyone else wants to do a special where they appear to insert a laser disc in their ass and then. And then take it out, eject it later, then we can, you know, talk. But I, as a person who has no physical accomplishments and never has, I just always think it's really important to be like, by the way, this is hard work, and congrats on that. I think it's hard to not talk about it in the context of Nate. The Natalie Palamides.
- [56:29]
Jesse David Fox
Palamides.
- [56:30]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Palamides. The Natalie Palamides special that came out several years ago. They are thematically in conversation. They are structurally shaped in sort of symmetrical, ish ways, but they are distinct enough also that I think it's not like you're watching this and you're thinking like, oh, this is a repeat of that. It is absolutely its own kind of a thing. And especially by the end, I found it doing the kinds of personal, authentic, confessional kinds of things that we have been talking about that as needing to really interrogate, like, why we are valuing that. But part of why that is so important to not lose sight of as a value here is that they are structurally built into, like, what this is designed to accomplish and accomplishes so well that you begin with her as this. As this automaton, and you end with her as a person. And it's really lovely.
- [57:43]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, I mean, there are big ideas going on here, like galaxy brain ideas compared to really almost anyone else. Like, Nate was like, in the mix of where we were as a culture has developed at the height of Me too and feels like it has a different take on it and end somewhere unexpected, but, like, it's in the mud. This feels like truly like a robot downloaded all that information and then like, figured out she sort of had its new problem to deal with. And because that thing you said about it, it's sort of you seeing a robot become person. That's like, essentially what the goal of the show is for its audience. So, look, I love this stuff. It's just as heady as hell. But like, essentially, like both these shows, Nate, Natalie and Courtney live together while they develop these shows and these characters, and they constantly collaborate and they both do something really interesting. That is, they presented something and then just the act of how they manipulate, the fact of how they're presented is part of the show. So Nate, for much of Nate, Natalie is not wearing a shirt, but she has crudely drawn on chest hair to, like, force to Is truly like a confrontation of the audience to be like, see my body as this thing. Can we as an audience see me as a man? And can we not? And where that tension is, we are going to explore together and how that. And it's fascinating because, like, sometimes clearly audience does. Sometimes she does a thing, and the audience is like, wait, you are a particularly small woman as well. So it's. It's fascinating where this is doing something similar, but the opposite, which is she is presenting extremely sexualized version of herself, but not just conceptually. She is. You know, like, there are comedians who talk about sex, so they're Presenting sexual version herself. She is wearing very little clothes, and you, as the audience member, are consuming it. They are shooting, in a way for whatever gaze you would be attracted to her figure to create a feeling in the audience that she will play against. And. And she is not just saying, like, isn't it crazy how the Internet sexualizes everyone? And then how they use the energy of sexualization to commodify our desire to eventually sell us something that is what the show's about. But she's doing that by actually forcing you on a streaming website to be, like, attracted to her. To then break that down again, an idea about the relationship between the Internet, sexuality and commercialism that just sort of was not on the tip of anyone's tongue. And to then end it in a place that is emotionally specific and a reminder of, like, why live entertainment is good or being live is good. Like, this medium demands audience interaction, and it's hard to film audience interaction. I think Jonah Rae, who directed, did an incredible job of both making the audience reaction feel daring. And it does help that something happens that is extreme.
- [60:59]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah, I was legitimately like, this is not gonna actually happen, because I've seen.
- [61:04]
Jesse David Fox
Her do it live. And the audience is titillated, but mostly nervous. And. And so how she handles it is fantastic. But also I think Jonah does a good job considering the probably budgetary restraints is still making it seem scary at times. And then at the moments where it's really intimate and small, it feels intimate and small, like it's executed. I frankly, was beyond my expectations. And it's a credit to Dropout as well. There's nothing against the artist. It's just sort of like it was a thing that seemed like it'd be hard to pull off. And that they did is really an astounding piece of work that it's nice for a special to, like, demand something of its audience.
- [61:49]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah, 100%. 100%. And as far as its sort of timeliness for this year, I agree with you that it almost feels like it is outside of where the rest of the year is. Except for the fact that there's a book that also came out this year called Margo's Got Money Trouble, which is about a young mother who. Who starts in Onlyfans. And so I do think, looking back and that book is going to be a TV show, it was a huge thing that came out, and I really was thinking about them in conversation with each other. I think it is likely that in retrospect, it will be one of those things where we look back at this year and we're like, oh, everyone was talking about that.
- [62:29]
Jesse David Fox
So your number five is Anthony Jeselnik's bones and all. One of my friends just asked me thought would be the sperm donor for her baby. I said, I don't know. That's a pretty big decision. How old's your baby?
- [62:49]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yes. I have been a fan of Anthony Jeselnik's for a while. I love the fact that he works on a special for years and years before it comes out. Because he works in this way where every single line every is chosen really carefully. I think this special is.
- [63:14]
Jesse David Fox
A.
- [63:15]
Katherine Van Arendonk
He designs it as an anniversary special. And the later parts of the special are reflective about moments of his career which is I think an interesting angle for him to be, to be playing with and that I almost wish had been pushed farther as a kind of place for his villain Persona to be going. But really the standout element of the special is the first 10 minutes which are I think a very elegant form of conversation about what is happening with edginess and comedy, what is happening with cancel culture comedians and the idea of using trans people as this comedy football to just punt over and over again. How we listen to people who are trying to give us feedback about our work, how we incorporate that, how we do that gracefully without compromising our artistic values. And for me that, that is what really makes this hour.
- [64:33]
Jesse David Fox
So first thing I'll say is like all the jokes are great. He's great rating jokes. Okay, that's said this is not on my list. I don't know if it'd be my top 15. And maybe I'm judging Anthony at a higher standard, but Anthony holds himself to a very high standard. And I do think this is a step backwards from his last special in terms of making specials. If you go, what is this special about? The special is about how Anthony Jesus Link has been doing comedy for 20 years and he's good at writing jokes. And it's also a. And I think the thing about the joke at the beginning which again is very good. The problem with I think a lot of that aspect of it and maybe it's a problem with how he is pursuing these specializes work is the desire to be better than other people make. A lot of his work focused on what other people's value systems, on what comedy should be and at his level of comedy, his level of being good at this. And if he's as good as he says he is, and I believe he is, he needs to be more self inspired in terms of like what do I want to say? How do I want to do it? I think it's beautiful. His ability to write these jokes. I think they're beautiful. I think his. The dance of getting people on different sides and not knowing where they are. Masterful. He's better at this than anything. But it comes. It comes to a point in a lot of artists career where they are masterful at something and now they have to do something with it. And it might be worse. It might be like, make Megalopolis or whatever it is, like make it be disaster. But like, the thing that I think about and I think like is painters who have a fairly limited visual vocabulary but figure out ways to expand upon it after they master that visual vocabulary. And especially if you think of like the mid 20th century, like Rothko did those things and he became incredible at them and they are an amazing thing to behold. But then eventually he was like, well, what if I use this to make the people at the Four Seasons want to throw up? Or he goes, what would my version of a church be? What is Anthony Jeselink's version of a church? Elsewhere, Kelly has made a church. All these people make churches. What is that version of it? Film that and a lesser comedian. I don't know if I'd held to this standard, but we have only so many people who are really great at the master part that it's like, well, you don't have to worry about that actually for a year because that will follow it. I'm not saying it has to be more personal. Hopefully it's not, because there's a lot of people. That's the direction they go in. You know, like, look at like Adam Sandler's special, which we'll talk about in a bit. That special has personal moments, but there's parts that are like completely structurally not like anything anyone's doing or specials that I think are not on my list but considered are like Dan Licata's special and Carmen Christopher's special, where you truly cannot tell me where the Persona is or isn't. And I think Anthony is doing that. He's not fleshing out this character as much as like you watch Carmen or Dan, you go like. You almost feel like the only time they ever do stand up is now where like the character of Anthony Jesnik is a stand up comedian, which seems maybe there could be more direction they can go in while still being in the format of stand up. I don't want him to make a movie where this character is like murdering people. But like, you know, if you're making like Courtney Perosa's special was scary at times, it can be done. What is your version of that? I don't know. I'm not Anthony Jeselnik. But that is my rant towards Anthony Jeselnik that I told you I was going to do. But again, great writing. Better writing than a lot of people on my list. And that's my thought.
- [68:24]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah. You know, it is a situation where I don't, I don't really disagree with any of any of the rant. I think it is the kind of special that you watch and you are absolutely blown away by the fact that he is able to do it as well as he does. And it is an incredible magic trick that when you see it, it doesn't matter how many magic tricks you see and you're like, there it is again. It disappeared and appeared in front of. And I think it would be so exciting to see what a different thing looked like.
- [69:00]
Jesse David Fox
It's interesting. There's a joke in the special about he goes, my friend asked me if I would be the sperm donor for their baby. And I said, how old's the baby? And what's crazy is like that is great joke. That was once a 15 minute story about that happening to him. And I'm not saying. And I think it's actually fascinating that that's what happened. This is not saying like I rather this story but I do rather understanding artistically the part of his brain that went that thing is the thing. What is the creative decisions like make more creative decisions and like have it feel like the special's overflowing with creative decisions and it would be exciting. That is, I guess this is imagining Anthony listening to this, getting an hour and a half in just to hear me complain. But it's. I think this, the comedians that are, we're about to talk about are all people who are quite good at what they're doing and figured out how to do what I'm doing in what I'm saying in, in very different ways. Which is why we are now going to transition to our top four. We have the same comedians in our top four but in different orders. However, our number four is the same. So then we will just talk about that one and then we will deal with the top three when we get to it. So number four is Nikki Glaser's Someday you'll die. HBO.
- [70:24]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Hello.
- [70:25]
Jesse David Fox
What am I, Taylor Swift?
- [70:27]
Katherine Van Arendonk
I've never wanted kids. I think some moms think that if you don't have kids, you're a selfish person, and I get that. I just don't feel like devoting my free time to something that could marry a dj. I just think that's reckless.
- [70:41]
Jesse David Fox
I'm gonna get a brow lift.
- [70:42]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Like, I just want the this. Because every time I'm stressed out and.
- [70:45]
Jesse David Fox
I'm like, oh, God, I have so.
- [70:47]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Much to do, I'm like, oh, my God, snatch. Like, I'll, like, look in the mirror someday.
- [70:51]
Jesse David Fox
You die.
- [70:52]
Katherine Van Arendonk
I got into an Uber the other day. I rolled up with, like, a bunch of suitcases, and the Uber driver just.
- [70:57]
Jesse David Fox
Popped the trunk and sat in the front seat.
- [71:00]
Katherine Van Arendonk
I was like, is this the first sign of menopause? What's happening right now? Nikki is a comedian who I always turn on with a sense of immense relief, because you just know from the first moment that she walks out onto a stage that you are about to watch somebody do this job incredibly competently and well. And there is a way, particularly, that she stands on a stage and just owns exactly what her Persona is, how the joke writing will go where it is. That thing where you're like, ugh, an artist is here, and I will just relax, and I don't have to worry about whatever it's gonna be. That said, I don't love every Nikki Glaser special equally, and this one I found much more interesting and accomplished than her previous one. And in part, it is because she has really thought about what about how to take the Persona that she has built and make a special about something that is completely in keep. It's not like she's changing the character of who she is, but to approach an idea that is just a little bit in as uncomfortable a place for her now as the sex stuff was for her when she was, you know, when. When bangin was the special that she was doing. And she's a comedian who I think is really good at thinking about bodies, her own body, how bodies work, how our bodies are all related to each other. And so perhaps it's not surprising that she is then willing to make an entire special about how our bodies will fail us and the anxiety of reproduction. And yet still watching it actually happen. You're like, oh, we're gonna do it. We get to do it. It's so exciting. I think it is. You know, I really love the closer of this special, even though I also feel like the first, what, 20 or 30 minutes are the things that I think I value most about it. But the closer is also the kind of demonstration of her ability to just absolutely commit to a Physical performance and. And tie the writing and the physicality together and do the kinds of intimacy and vulnerability that don't. It's a confession that doesn't feel like a confession, which I just think is so appealing and remarkable.
- [73:44]
Jesse David Fox
I mean, the Closer is. I don't know if I had a list. Maybe there's, like, three specials. I cried at this year, and I cried at the end. And partly because it is incredible, the work conceptually to marry this idea of, like, gang ban, gang bang fantasies, and, like, what does love look like at her, like, at her age? And what does she value? And not. And just play it out. It is just an incredible thing to capture a feeling in a way that does not feel trite, in a way that feels the exact opposite of it. And the thing about Nikki is that, you know, she. She got to a certain level by talking about sex. Probably defined. But, you know, she. She leaned into it then. That's the thing. Like, I think a lot of comedians get to that point, and they're like, well, I want to talk about other stuff. I don't want to be just a sex comedian, whatever. And partly because she had this sort of, like, roast thing happening on the side that allowed her to get famous another way. She was like, I. Instead, I'm gonna just keep on going deeper into this. I'm going like, well, if I'm talking about this, what else is about this? Where does it go further than this? It's like, the body stuff is an extension of the fact that it's like, what is sex? Sex is body. Sex is. What is my relationship to procreation? What sex? What my relationship to death? But not remove. Not being like, a comedian goes, I'm not gonna talk about sex anymore. I'm gonna be serious. I'm gonna talk about death.
- [75:12]
Katherine Van Arendonk
They're the same.
- [75:13]
Jesse David Fox
They're the same same way. And knowing that and figuring out that connection. And it's taken her a few years to exactly figure out how to do it, but it is a testament to sort of, like, working at this thing and like, that the path to the next level of Wildwood Stand up is not necessarily like, oh, I need to do whatever big comedians are doing, or whatever comedians in the past have done. She followed what she was interested in. She kept on being like, what will make it so I'm still interested in it. And it's like, first Special opens with 20 or so minutes about not having a kid. And that is an area that is covered in a way that is, like, I find valuable, but often, like, Kind of the same joke over and over again. And because of the effort she puts into finding jokes that have not been told, she finds truly profound things that if you are or not a parent, it will change the way you think about it. And specifically, there's the moment where she goes, she knows why people have kids. And she's like, I do feel bad that I won't get to experience that profound feeling or the happiness, but you don't get to experience everything that's good in life. That is, like, I think, the most insightful thing I've ever seen a comedian at least, or a person say about both having kids and not having kids. And to get there through sex jokes and to just stay true to your voice while also, like, elevating your presentation. Like, they're small directorial things, but it feels like a sense of place and a sense of time. It's. It's. It's so exciting.
- [76:56]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah.
- [76:57]
Jesse David Fox
All right, so our top three is same comedians, different order. We're gonna go in your order, and then we'll talk about my order at the end and why we agree or disagree. So your number three is Adam Sandler's. Love you, netflix.com. you guys are the best.
- [77:16]
Katherine Van Arendonk
I love you.
- [77:18]
Jesse David Fox
I love you. I need you. Help me.
- [77:22]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Call me mad. I gotta go do the show.
- [77:27]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah. All right. So anyway, anyways, I talk a lot, and then I sing, and we do a bunch of shit, so. All right, here it goes. This song was written about this gentleman right here. We've lost control. What the fuck is happening? My bad. They gonna get you. All right. I love you.
- [77:59]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Love ya.
- [77:59]
Jesse David Fox
I love ya. I love you. I love you. I love you.
- [78:04]
Katherine Van Arendonk
I am not a Sandler person. Like, from my childhood and my adolescence, I was not a person who has been quoting Happy Gilmore. I cannot give you a long, long, long ranked list of my favorite Adam Sandler movies. I have watched a lot more of his standup. Mostly it's because Jesse made me at various points. And it has always been the kind of comedy that I. And obviously snl, you know, and SNL is kind of the Sandler that I got the most. That really actually sort of worked for me the best. And so there has been a long Sandler period where it's like, I admire and appreciate it, and I'm happy for everyone. And so I have to say, I did turn on this special with a sense of like, all right, let's see what's going on. Not that I was expecting to not have a good time, but that I was sort of positioning myself once again for that sense of I admire and appreciate what is happening here. And instead, I was really completely taken in by the entire worldview of it. For me, it is a special that lives and dies on the direction, which is from the kind of Safdie Brothers approach.
- [79:38]
Jesse David Fox
Literally looking up, which one? It's Josh.
- [79:40]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Josh Safdie. Thank you. For me, it's a special that lives and dies on the direction from Josh Safdie. And I watched the intro, which is this bit where Sandler is coming into the stage and doing your classic comedian, like, walking out onto the stage and we get behind the scenes thing, except it's the Safdie brothers bit. So, like, everything is falling apart and he is deeply stressed and people are screaming at him and odd, absurd things are happening that are pulling your attention and his attention at all times. And I thought, oh, that's fun. But he'll walk out on stage and it will end and it will just become a regular show. And instead, that was the idea of this special. And what it manages to accomplish, I think is really so, so impressive because it manages to be both inside his brain and outside his brain at the same time. It is a portrait of him as much as it is him talking about the things that he cares about and feels. And so you are able to do the kinds of like. Like Ali Wan commentary on what it is like to be famous, except in such a much more insightful and thoughtful and interesting way because it is coming from the outside and because it aligns you with his own deep, like, annoyance and frustration at how badly everything is going and how much everyone relies on him and how intensely he feels the burden of that reliance. And. And it enables so much. Like, I can think of specific moments of this special in a way that I cannot, like, picture them clearly from other specials of the year. And then it gets to this point at the end where you are able to live in the incredible sincerity that he is trying to communicate that I do not think you can pull off without everything else that this special is doing before. I really think it is just an incredible thing.
- [81:38]
Jesse David Fox
Okay, I'm gonna try not to cry. So the thing, I am a, you know, I'm a Sandman guy, but I think it's the best directed special probably ever. And it is because it is not just like, oh, it looks cool and there's like, an idea and how it's shot makes you feel whatever. It really conceived of a. How the interruptions. And there's a variety of interruptions work pacing wise Do a thing that I think you might not realize it's doing, which is actually making it feel more like you're watching stand up than if you just watched a normal set. And that's because they figure out how to build tension into this special in a legitimate way. That just does not happen like it's supposed to happen in jokes, but it's hard to watch them in jokes. The same way when you're watching a special and they figure out a way of doing it, the special opens, and it is so annoying. You are annoyed, and then he comes on stage and you're like. And then that joke plays well, but then something else annoying. And that constant playing back and forth affects you as an audience member, because part of you, it's unclear what was planned and how it was planned. But the thing about Sandman as an actor is when he is frustrated, it's compelling because, you know, it will could bubble over. And a lot of these jokes are about small, petty frustrations. And it has an idea. There is a sort of, like, what is. All these things are happening that are helping the comedy also built a sort of a larger idea about what comedy is doing, which is like. It's like the idea of what the special is. Is fairly simple, which is. Comedy is good.
- [83:23]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah.
- [83:24]
Jesse David Fox
But as a person who wrote a whole book about it, that said, which is basically the same premise, I find it astoundingly effective. The ending, even when I watched it back, I'm like, okay, now here's the thing. And he just is saying the names of comedians that are good. And this is the thing that they do to make it all elevated beyond manipulation. That works and is in passing. Someone says the word Covid. Someone's memory was affected by Covid. That is the only mention of it. They move on. And then the song, which is mostly just about comedy, is nice. Here's the name of comedians is directly addressing that fact. The thing that we talked about at the beginning, which is. Or we talked about Kyle in terms of, like, these people are not talking about COVID enough. And that's across all artists and especially comedians. I think, like, a lot of times they're just sort of like, did what they need to do, which is like, I'm just reminding you that this happened so we can all move on. Very few people talked about the fact that people got sick and died. It just is really hard to pull off and be funny. And maybe the trick for Adam was like, that part's not gonna be as funny. That part we can maybe just play And I mean, obviously, I found it deeply moving, but also it all played into that. Like, it was building to that.
- [85:01]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah.
- [85:02]
Jesse David Fox
Because in a vacuum, you don't even have to be, like, deeply cynical. You just needed all of it and knowing you needed all of it and pasting it together. And also, I will say, like, the jokes he does during the hour that are jokes, like, no one else is in that style of comedy at all. Like, truly, he's. He's, like, doing invented versions of, like, Shaggy Dog stories that truly are fully of his voice. There's no one even adjacent to the style. If you wrote them down, they don't make sense, but they make sense when he's doing the voices of it. And then songs, and then he plays it back. There's one moment he does a song about. You think it's gonna be a sincere song about how his daughter's growing up, and it's not. Not. But the turn is that he can buy them beer or whatever, and then that song ends. And then they bring back the music motif of a different joke about divorce. And then he's like, that's why. And you're like, that is. No one's working on that level. And that's just the text when there's all this subtext. I mean, it is. I honestly, when he did his last special, I was like, wow, that's probably the best special he's gonna be able to pull off. And then, like, now he's doing another special after taking decades off. He really is on one right now, that guy.
- [86:21]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah. I mean, the other thing I wanted to say about the relationship between him and the direction of this thing is that I have always understood and appreciated that, like, one of the incredible things about him as a person and as an artist is how much he really just ultimately loves his friends and, like, wants to give them platforms. And I have always understood that and, like, watched movies of his and been like, okay, I understand why this is happening, and that is because this is who he is. But it has not really worked for me as art. This is such an incredibly selfless act of being like, I'm gonna give someone else the responsibility for making this what it is. He has not. I mean, saying that he has nothing to do with, like, why this works is obviously completely absurd. However, it requires him to show up and be like, you're going to fuck with me, and I'm going to hate it, and that's how this is going to be. And, no, I'm sorry, but no one else on this list would have shown up and been like, whatever, I trust you.
- [87:21]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah. No, I mean, the relationship between standups and directors historically, from what I understand, is not that some of the best directed specials are because the director lied to the comedian about what they were doing. And, like, yes, it is a thing of he loves his friends and he loves them doing their art and, like, so it results in Rob Schneider getting to sing Elvis.
- [87:46]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yes, this is my low point, but I still understand why it is here.
- [87:50]
Jesse David Fox
But it does underline that, like, Safdie's his friend. And when you're a friend of Sandler's, he wants to give you platforms to do things. And I'm sure, like, it is the thing about these comedians that older. So many center comedians get older and they just are sort of like, it's a less exciting version of what they did, or it's a little bit out of touch and they're less attuned to what makes them interesting, and they sort of rest on their laurels a little bit. And it's almost like the thing that continues to motivate Sandler is the idea of working with other people and truly giving themselves fit that allow him to constantly refresh himself. The fact, like, he has writers for his, like, as I said, like, I think more comedians have writers. I think their specials read better. This is what it looks like. There's a lot of bits and jokes in this. I have no idea which ones he wrote or didn't write, but it's definitely better because Daniel Bula, who's the main SNL guy, now, helped him. And as a result, the piece is better. And we're ranking the pieces. All right. Your number two, Jacqueline Novak's get on your knees. Netflix.com thank you. Despite.
- [89:10]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Despite your warm welcome, that journey was hell. The journey from backstage stage to a microphone always is.
- [89:17]
Jesse David Fox
It's fraught.
- [89:19]
Katherine Van Arendonk
It's because for me, what it reminds.
- [89:21]
Jesse David Fox
Me of is the journey, you know.
- [89:26]
Katherine Van Arendonk
From someone's face down their torso. There's no this to give them a blow job. Because the whole way there. Both scenarios, everyone knows what you're headed to do, but you're not yet doing the thing.
- [89:52]
Jesse David Fox
So there's just this question hanging in.
- [89:54]
Katherine Van Arendonk
The air, the whole way of, can she do it? I mean, will she do the thing we're all here for, well or badly? And, oh, God, the uncertainty, the tenuousness. I mean, can you feel it? I saw this live. I don't see a lot of these live. And partly that is deliberate because I want to watch the special and Then see what the special looks like. And when the memory of it live is in my brain, it is hard to pick one over the other or think about them. But I failed in this case. I've watched them both, and I bring that up in part because I think one of the things that I know you really like, but that I am still thinking about is the direction of this special and the way that it looks and the way that she is on a stage and sort of moves on a stage. And I. I am sort of still thinking about it in part, because it is, like, the one thing where my brain is still like, hmm, I'm not sure how I think. Because the rest of it is so completely perfect.
- [91:11]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah.
- [91:12]
Katherine Van Arendonk
The writing of it, the performance of it, the incredible depth of and sort of playfulness with theme and tone and language and the ideas that she's getting across and the characters that she's playing and the way that she has built the whole thing. It is so exquisite and complete and coherent and lovely and beautiful that, like, all I can. All my brain is like, did I like it better live or did I like it? But, you know, like, that's kind of where. That's where I've gotten stuck. Snagged on, like, the tiniest possible snag.
- [91:47]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah. It's interesting because live makes sense, because it's like her brain and your brain are doing it and to your perspective on that person's body. And that's the lens, and that's like, the relationship it's exploring. Right. Like, in some ways, this special is a. I wouldn't say a mixture of Langston's and Courtney special because, like, obviously you don't add those two together.
- [92:15]
Katherine Van Arendonk
No kidding.
- [92:16]
Jesse David Fox
But, like, it isn't conversation with those. And so much as it's like this, the relationship between language and bodies and movement and all these things. It's almost like there's 20 versions of this special that could have been filmed. She does the exact same thing, but just a different person directs it or whatever. And it's still all them would be. It's almost like that's how I prefer it released. Because, like, you needed the direction to have a vision. Because it's partly about, like, the consuming of this person.
- [92:45]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Right.
- [92:46]
Jesse David Fox
So, like. And this was this person's. Like, it's hard because, like, is this the way I would most want it to look? I don't know. Like, I'm not an official enough person to be. Like. And I was not asked to direct this special, but, like, it works at conveying that thing. Now the question is, like, could it conveyed that to more people if it was done this or whatever. I don't know. I mean, like, it. But it is hard because you're sort of like, conceptually, the idea of a stage piece, like, fully, I understand how this all relates and how the story builds without being full, fully a solo narrative and not building momentum on a feeling, but building momentum on an idea. Right. And as a piece, being like, you can build a special where the momentum is on the evolution of a thinking and not the evolution of a feeling, while also the character's evolution is the embracing of feeling. While what? I mean, it's a lot of ideas, while at the same time, every. Every joke is what would be a comedian's favorite joke? There's so much of it. And then it is. It's. It's hard to be like. Well, it's overwhelming. It's like. Well, the point of it is to be overwhelming. But then it's like, you have to be the part of you that, like, wants people to make megapolis or whatever. Right. This is what I'm asking Anthony Jeselnik to do. This has to work less for more people for it to work more for fewer people. But those fewer people will get an understanding of your art in a way that would not be able to otherwise. And, like, on purpose, this was the goal. That's the thing that is, like, it's not like we're just talking. And if we had Jacqueline and Natasha Leone who directed here, they'd be like, I don't know what you're talking about. We just set up a camera. It's like, no, Every inch of it was exactly the thing they were. And that piano you see in the background is part of the semiotics or whatever. It's. Because I've seen it live and have listened to it a million times. It's hard to separate my appreciation for these decisions from what it would be like to see it for the first time. But, like, that's why these lists are not. This is the best comedy put out in a year. It is idea. It's an exploration of what the idea of a special is. That is what these conversations are. There is no perfect special. So as a result, like, the. Any attempt to do that is, like, sort of antithetical to what we're ultimately asking for specials, which is to, like.
- [95:20]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Be wrong and interesting.
- [95:21]
Jesse David Fox
Being wrong and interesting in ways that only you can do. And that's exactly what this is.
- [95:25]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah, yeah.
- [95:25]
Jesse David Fox
Or not. And. And while also being masterful in this sort of execution of the.
- [95:30]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Of the things that are working. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [95:34]
Jesse David Fox
So your number one, Ali Siddiq's Domino Effect, part three. First day of school, YouTube.
- [95:41]
Katherine Van Arendonk
I'm on the block, and, man.
- [95:47]
Jesse David Fox
People are getting time up here.
- [95:52]
Katherine Van Arendonk
They're getting time. I'm in here fighting my case. I come back from the gym, it's.
- [95:58]
Jesse David Fox
A dude, a Mexican dude, then got the real shit. I come in, Mexican dude under the blanket.
- [96:06]
Katherine Van Arendonk
I look, I ain't. What's up?
- [96:07]
Jesse David Fox
Why Carlos under that blanket? He said, shit, boy. Everybody in that trip.
- [96:11]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Carlos, Carlos.
- [96:14]
Jesse David Fox
I say, carlos got what? Old school here. Go old school again. Carlos got the motherfucker.
- [96:23]
Katherine Van Arendonk
I say, what? What is the motherfucker?
- [96:27]
Jesse David Fox
Cause you already told me what. The bitch was in the quota hose. That's a lot. What is the motherfucker?
- [96:32]
Katherine Van Arendonk
He said, man, she got a license. What?
- [96:37]
Jesse David Fox
I said, he got a license. He said, shit, he got two of them motherfuckers. And as soon as I heard he got two license, I said, why is he in here? Why are they. Why are they housing?
- [96:47]
Katherine Van Arendonk
I have talked in the past about how I was a TV critic first and still am. And the thing about that is that actually before that, I was a Victorianist and still am in my deep, deep soul. And I have a really hard time watching Domino Effect and just ignoring the parts of my brain that just light on fire about what it is, what it feels like to watch someone do serial narrative comedy specials. It is so exciting to me. It is so fascinating. It is. No one else is doing anything like it. I don't know if anyone should or could. And yet I. I have a hard time watching those and not doing the, like. When I make lists, ultimately, it's like whether you watched it and then you felt like standing up and running around your house with your arms in the air and trying to ignore that feeling is futile. And for me, the interplay of the Persona, the performance, the individual parts of the special, the kind of long arc, audience development, the relationship that you have with this person, the kinds of things that we're talking about with Ali Wong, with Jeselnik, with Nikki Glaser, where we're like. And then when you think about it in the context of who they were before and who they were now, like, that is how I am watching all of these. But. But Ali Siddiq is the only one who is doing it. Like, guess what? We're talking, like, where that is the deliberate choice that is being made, where the thing, the expectation is that you saw Part one. And now we are here at part three, and we also have part four to talk about. And they are. I started loving Dickens first, and no one's doing Dickens comedy specials except for him. And. And so I just. I fall deeply in love with the experience of returning to that story. It is one of the things that I just find I have and have since forever been. It is the thing that I love. I will say I chose part three in particular. I do prefer both one and three over two and four. And part of the reason for that is that I think 1 and 3 find him as a character. And so for anyone who does not know what this is he is talking about, it is Ali Siddiq talking about his life from childhood through his sort of teenage years as a drug dealer, and then his period, his long period of incarceration, and then into the aftermath of that. And so one is his childhood. Two is this kind of the moment when he is dealing drugs. 3 Is this sort of liminal space between after he has been arrested but before he is long term, sort of incarcerated. And he's wondering what is going to sort of be happening to his future. Will he get out? How long will he get? Where will he land? And he, I think, is the most interesting narrator of his own life. And again, like, how do you even talk about these things without talking about, like, you know, David Copperfield? Cause that's really what they are. Like Mark Twain shit. It's just the best. And I think he is the most interesting narrator of his own life in these moments, like the childhood and in part three, where he is on uncertain ground and he is perpetually trying to. And because the character is in an uncertain place, he is forced as the narrator to do more work in the framing parts of those stories and to be thinking consciously about how to connect each individual part. And as a result, I think structurally they are more exciting as a audience member, and they are forced. He is forced less into finding kind of grandiose conclusions outside of his own story because he is going a place where he knows he's ultimately going to land. And that becomes a form of resolution within the narrative without him having to find a kind of external one. But there is no part of this that I don't love.
- [101:48]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, I mean, I think if. If I was being honest with myself, it's very possible I would put four somewhere also on a list. But, like, who wants to make a list that has two segments of person's thing? It's just sort of not. I mean, I'd have to write blurbs. I imagine writing blurbs. If you had to write two segments of the same thing and you write the lesser one first, it would kill the momentum of the ranking anyway. It is this sort of rare thing that is happening. A person whose skill set is as high as it needs is with something actually worth talking about, who was not in a rush to talk about it, which is kind of a perfect storm that just does not happen often. You're getting people who have an extraordinary story to tell and they kind of want to tell it right away because it's exciting to tell it, and maybe you can get attention from telling it right away. And as a result, you get no perspective. You sort of just get what it is and then you shoehorn in some insight about modern day life. This is sort of the problem with the broadly defined Edinburgh model is that the stories often are unprocessed and they're just sort of. This is the thing that happened to me. And it's about. And then like, huh, Trauma. Trauma, sure. Like it's about immigration or it's about grief. But it connects to Covid because that's. But it's just like the story about your mom dying or your grandpa dying and you're just. And this is partly because sharkumstance made it so. He sort of avoided talking about this until he got to be extremely good at telling stories. For the most part, he has an ability to do a thing that I can't think of many comedians are able to do, which is tell the story. This is what happened. These are the people in it. But you do not go, this is just him telling me details of a thing. You feel like there's a perspective on it and you have takeaways, and those takeaways are built into the story. But he does not let himself off the hook, and he does not, for almost the entirety of the thing, tip his hat too much with what he's saying he does one time in four. And it's hard to know what to do with that time because you're like, whoa, present day. But it's hard to be like. You know, often I use this as a platform to tell standard comedians about what to be like. And it's hard to say. I mean, it's like the takeaway is like, don't be in a rush. But like, this section is extremely small in terms of how much story it takes place and extremely large in terms of what it reveals about the criminal justice system. And that contrast is what makes it a great, fascinating work. The Other specials are bigger, longer, more massive. In both. Everything it's saying there is something about. This is definitely the most compact one. And it feels like. Like he is not just saying this. What is. What it. This is how they treat you in prison. Right. Like, he's really being like, this is a. This is what it is.
- [105:07]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah.
- [105:07]
Jesse David Fox
And that is a very. The feeling of fat. Like, truly, you're getting a sense of what really is and not his impression of it or is a thing that needs time of thinking about that time and figuring out the details of how to present it. And it's immaculate on its own. The idea that it's like part of this thing is it's both. Hard to think of them not together, but it's also not hard. I have no idea what this would play like on its own or the idea. If you watch this one and then you watch one, whatever might be really interesting.
- [105:40]
Katherine Van Arendonk
But.
- [105:42]
Jesse David Fox
What it's. It's. I think the next years of our careers will be like, let's not forget about that. This thing happened.
- [105:52]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah.
- [105:53]
Jesse David Fox
So that said, as mentioned, our top threes are the same, but different order. My order is Jack Lenovak was three, Ali Siddiq is two, and Adam Sandler was one. And if I think of the great works in the history of stand up comedy from this year, I would say it is, you know, like the Dirt Nap, the joke part of Dirt Nap, not the full special. I will acknowledge that it is. Get on your knees. It is Adam Sandler's love you. When I think of Domino Effect as a great work, I think of it as all four parts. It's kind of like a technicality. But I think, like, you watched Love you. Adam Sandler's love you. And the achievement is fully realized in the thing. It really is like, okay, what special is in terms of, like, special making was most exciting to me. And. And that's the distinction. I think the difference between Ollie and Jacqueline is like kind of a coin flip for me. But, like, I think there is. I don't even know what it would be, but there is maybe something else that could be reached in the Jacqueline thing that I. It's hard to know what it is because we're taught. We're saying, like, it's a. Okay, how do you make a thing that's transcendent, Transcendent plus one or whatever. Right. But that's the difference. I mean, like, it really is. Ali and Adam had things that didn't work make it better and more specific to them, and maybe the things that quote unquote, didn't work for Jacqueline were not things that I felt like. Definitely felt like I was getting further deeper into sort of this specific work. But I don't know. I mean, it's like, they're all good.
- [107:53]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah.
- [107:56]
Jesse David Fox
Disagree. Say why I'm wrong and Allie is better than Adam. I don't know.
- [108:00]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah. I mean, I'm not gonna sit and be like, I think Adam doesn't also deserve a number one spot here. They're both incredible. I think the major difference for me is that an Adam Sandler's. I think this is the best Adam Sandler special, but I don't think it is. I don't think it is on a completely different planet from other specials that he has made. And yes, I am thinking about Domino effect as a whole and then picking out a piece of it and being like, this is the part that best represents the whole. But again, my deal is episodes like that is. That is some of the most exciting of what art is, is that sense of like, I know this world. I have been in this world before. It is familiar to me. Here is a thing of it that is new and different and particularly exquisite within this pre created world, which is what part three is doing for me. But I do think that there is something about the way that he. I mean, I think I said the last time we were talking about this, like, why does this man not have, like, Pulitzers and Peabody's and I. And I. I think the ambition of it and the kind of openness of it they feel not. Not dissimilar to me. Sort of what they are trying to say about what comedy can do and be in the world. And. And I guess there is a way that Domino effect for me is just operating on a scale of, like, my. What I think about, like, what America is and what the world is, that just feels so undeniable.
- [109:48]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, I agree. I think in this sort of, like, it means more stuff is like, what makes things transcendent, plus. And a lot of that is not in control of the artist. Right. It's just like timing when things happen. And I do think the this is truly Top Chef final table stuff where it's like, okay, well, sort of is the transcendence of affirming life via the art that you're doing at the time superior than the transcendence on, like, making a great work in terms of, like, one of the great tragedies of modern existence at a time. Yeah, it did feel like, wow, there's a lot of good specials that came out this year. And I did not feel that about other years.
- [110:28]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah.
- [110:29]
Jesse David Fox
And that's sort of the takeaway that you're like, there are a lot of things that can have been ones on the special. And there's not usually a year where there's a lot of number ones. Nope. There's usually specials where you're like, well, this is the best one. But no one's aiming for one. No one's swinging like that. No one's making Bigopolis movie I have not seen. I don't know if it is. I mean, part of it is like being further away from COVID It's people who made deals to make specials after Covid, so they're not want to recoup the money that they got half of when they first signed the deal or however their deals were structured. But like, the feeling of like, these are the specials I needed to make now that there are multiples that are. That feel that way is like, thank. Gee, this is like a good time. And it makes me excited for the year to come.
- [111:24]
Katherine Van Arendonk
Yeah. I have spent the last couple years making a lot of caveats about sort of what is included and what feels, you know, like a good time but not. But not special.
- [111:40]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah.
- [111:40]
Katherine Van Arendonk
And it's been really thrilling to look at the year and feel like there were other specials that I could have put on this list, but also that the ones that are operating on this level are truly sort of stratospheric in the ambition and in the accomplishment.
- [112:01]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah. I mean, I haven't made a list since 2017, partly because I didn't have to, but also I didn't really feel like it. I didn't even have to make this list, but I was like, I kind of want to do it. I want to be put in position where I have to decide on great works and then the value systems of it and have this conversation where I have more at stake. And that is a to the work. And thank you, comedians. Thank you, comedy. Thank you, Katherine Van Erendonk. It has been a pleasure. Happy holidays.
- [112:32]
Katherine Van Arendonk
And to you, always a joy and a privilege.
- [112:35]
Jesse David Fox
That's it for this episode of Good One. Good Ones. Reviews from myself and Jelanya Carter. Governor Shriekerson did our theme song. I'm Jesse David Fox, and you can follow me at Jesse David Fox. Buy my book Comedy Book where books are sold. Thanks for listening to Good One from New York Magazine. You subscribe to the magazine@nymag.com pod we're back with a new episode next week. Have a good one. Welcome to Good One show about talking them jokes, son. Hey, hey, hey, hey. Good one. It's a good one.