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- [00:11]
Jesse David Fox
Hello and welcome to Good One, a podcast about jokes. I am your host, Jesse David Fox. First, an update. As I mentioned a few episodes ago, this will be the last new episode for a while as the show moves to a seasonal release schedule instead of the bi weekly one we've been going on for the last few five years or so. I'm excited for the new release schedule and how allows to approach the production of the podcast differently as we enter in the show's seventh year. But you know, the show will always remain the same. Me interviewing comedians about how they do what they do. But first, this week's episode. Our guest this week is my colleague Vulture critic Catherine Van Arendonk. We'll be talking about our best stand up specials of the year so far list. I I enjoy these conversations so much in the sort of unpredictable directions they go in. Just letting our little BR on a stroll talking about this year that has already been one of the most exciting ones for stand up in a really long time. So we're going through her list in alphabetical order by last name of the comedian. These are not a ranking. I will also note every single person we'll be talking about in this episode has been a guest on this podcast before. So please go back and check out those episodes. Without further ado, here are the best specials of the year so far. I am here with Katherine Van Arendonk. Thank you for joining me.
- [01:33]
Catherine Van Arendonk
I'm so happy to be back.
- [01:36]
Jesse David Fox
So as always, I like to clarify this is a list of specials that you made that I did not make. So you should yell at her though our list would be very similar except for one example but I will not let on which is the example. So don't worry. But we should get into it because we have a lot to talk about because there are multiple indie specials on this list that I would categorize as exceptional. And I feel like that is not always the case midway through where you were like, oh like four or five of these would be one or two like most years.
- [02:17]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Yeah, yeah. I mean this is something we, we talked about a lot over the past couple of years. I don't know if you heard 2020 was rough in a lot of ways and the, the results of that had this long delay in I feel like in stand up comedy and particularly in specials in a way that is not true for film and tv. Obviously there were like this big crater in production for a lot of these things. But, but the reality of needing to be able to tour and really have regular audiences and what an audience would respond to and was ready to respond to and like, how much of your material had to be about this thing we were all doing. And then how long it took back to get into a routine of touring and developing stuff meant that there was this longer tale of impact in this, in this particular space than there has been in other media forms. And it really was still the case, I think it was obviously 2021 and 2022. The thing about last year is that it felt like, of course, like, why. Why would this still be a problem? It hasn't been like, it's our. It's been a couple years. What's the deal? And what instead happened? What rather than like a beautiful bounce back into. Into just all around exceptional work, was a lot of people doing things that felt necessary in terms of, like, they had deals that had to get done or they wanted to do update things about their lives that they wanted to sort of talk about or, you know, and essentially like the equivalent of throat clearing had to happen. And I, I completely understand why all of that existed. And it also meant that there were a lot of specials last year that were like, okay, we're doing this and it's another one of these. And it was hard for anything to really feel special or particularly stand out. And then the result is now you get a collection of stuff like this year, where what you're seeing is stuff that people didn't release last year because they worked on it for a longer period of time and has really been gestating, given a lot more time to. To get super polished and considered. And so you get just this incredible work that has been in the pipeline for a long, long time.
- [04:57]
Jesse David Fox
Yes, it's not all examples, but like, essentially because bigger names had these deals they wanted to, needed to fulfill, bigger names disproportionately got priority at certain venues. All of it made it. So smaller names had to be just sort of a little bit behind in the timeline. And I do think, though, there are some of the examples that are turned around quite quickly. I've heard a lot more this year. People being like, I was planning on doing this in X and then didn't for this reason or that reason. And it proved beneficial for a lot of them. And that is our preamble. So going first on our list, this is going to be in alphabetical order by the last name is. So first up, Alex Edelman. Just for us. Hbo. It might have been for Max, it might have been for both. I decided I'm not going to look it up if HBO's production, stand up production produced this. It's HBO. I'm not going to look up where it premiered. Great. I grew up in Boston. I grew up in this really racist part of Boston called Boston. It's a Tuesday night and I'm doing my favorite thing when I'm alone. I lie on my couch and I hold my phone like an otter, like.
- [06:13]
Catherine Van Arendonk
An inch from my face.
- [06:17]
Jesse David Fox
And I see this tweet and I sent it to my best friend in the world and I wrote, david, do you want to come with me to this meeting of Nazis and Queens?
- [06:25]
Catherine Van Arendonk
So this is one that to me feels like, you know, as, as you're talking about stand up comedy mid year rather than end of the year. We're not doing rankings at this point. And really what it is is like looking at what has come out, what feels like it's big and notable and worth paying attention to. And it is hard to sort of talk about like what is happening in comedy right now without mentioning these kinds of specials. This is one of those, this is a, it is a one of those, it's longer than an hour that is in the kind of like one person show space of the standup special and is an exploration. It's essentially one long story about an experience that Alex Edelman talks about of going to this neo Nazi party and then tying all of that back into his own understanding of his identity, their identity, how people understand tribalism, how people understand political divisions. It is very much of the moment, in a moment that considers antisemitism to be significant. It is not something that is considering what is currently happening as far as Israel and Gaza. So it is also, I think, you know, bringing up a lot of the themes of what people are thinking about but not respond, not necessarily not built to respond to them, but clearly stemming from a lot of the same, same concerns and considerations. And you know, it is one of those things where you just, it is, it is constructed in a way where the frame story is so well built to support all of the things that he wants to, to imbue in it. And I find it, I find it to be more interesting from a piece of writing standpoint than from a performance standpoint. But I think that it works very well still in that context. And it just has been a real breakout, sort of non comedy geeks comedy special this year and feels really worth thinking about and highlighting.
- [09:09]
Jesse David Fox
This is a form that people have decided they want to work in right now, more so than five years ago, let's say it was not really on people's radars, comedians radars, to do one person shows with this frequency. And it become much more common over the last few years. The idea is it's a way to sort of like, separate you from the pack, the giant jumble of comedians. And that always kind of be the case. But I think in the past, it was a sort of juice, wasn't worth the squeeze situation. But I think it has proven to work and to build a sort of different type of career also. Like, the world is flat or whatever. And so more people are exposed to British comedians and the type of careers that they're building. And Alex predates that trend, even though he is, like, currently positioning himself as, like, right in the middle of it. Because, like, this was always Alex's thing. Like, when I heard of Alex, he was this guy who's doing well in England, even though he's an American. And I was like, what does that mean? And I think he had a vision for the type of comedy he wanted to do and the type of special he wanted to put out. Not in terms of what it would communicate, but just in terms of, like, its level, of its level of finish and its level of piece ness and not. This is just an update, you know, he's not doing it. It's not an hour. Oh, I've always wanted to do an hour. No, it's like he wanted to do a show and he wanted to do a special. I think there is a sort of precision and not in his performance necessarily, but just sort of how it's all put together.
- [10:43]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Yeah.
- [10:43]
Jesse David Fox
Which was. This is exactly the show he wanted to make. Everything's exactly in its place. It is communicating exactly what Alex wants to communicate. And what it is communicating is deliberate in terms of, like, I mean, what do we talk to him about? What I talked to him about when he's on the podcast. But, like, he wanted to be what theater does, which is, like, raises questions more than answers questions, which is not what Stand up does. Stand up is like, I'm here to be the person answers questions for you, which is why a lot of people like comedians. And I think that's really impressive and, and noteworthy.
- [11:20]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Yeah, I, I agree. And I, and I think that's sort of what I mean when I say I, I, I am impressed by it largely as a piece of writing, because the, just absolute control that it takes to say, like, I'm not gonna go for, you know, an easy, fast tangent over here because I feel uncomfortable in these little spaces. I'm. I am going to hold this thing for later. The. The rhythm of it, I think is really. Well, I mean, I think we are all familiar with that thing where you get to the part of the special. I think particularly this happens in the. In like the British hours that are like this, that I don't think Alex does, where it's like we were doing the fun part, but now comes the series.
- [12:14]
Jesse David Fox
Yes.
- [12:15]
Catherine Van Arendonk
It downshifts and then you go back. Right. And this special, I think, has a much more careful control of tone that allows it to be more of a consistent blend from the beginning, which is so hard to do. And so I found that also to be really impressive and effective.
- [12:33]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, it is not indulgent or self satisfied in these things and it's not looking for cheap pathos or whatever, which is just sort of like. I'm not going to say a really sad thing about me right now. And just to get it just. Yeah, the show's dragging. I'm going to say something intense just so that I have momentum for the back half. Like, the momentum is in structure and in terms of, like, how stories are paced and how the comedy is paced. And that takes time and work. And like, he knew that that's what it took. And it was like, I'm going to do that because that's what I want this thing to be.
- [13:14]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Yeah. Yeah.
- [13:15]
Jesse David Fox
Okay. No more about that one. Next up, Nikki Glaser. Someday youy'll Die. Hbo, period, or Max? I don't know. It's on Max now.
- [13:27]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Hello.
- [13:28]
Jesse David Fox
What am I, Taylor Swift?
- [13:30]
Catherine Van Arendonk
I've never wanted Kiss. I think some moms think that if you don't have kids, you're a selfish person.
- [13:35]
Jesse David Fox
And I get that.
- [13:37]
Catherine Van Arendonk
I just don't feel like devoting my free time to something that could marry a dj. I just think that's reckless. I'm gonna get a brow lift. Like, I just want this because every time I'm stressed out and I'm like, oh, God, I have so much to do, I'm like, oh, my God.
- [13:51]
Jesse David Fox
Snatch.
- [13:52]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Like, I'll, like, look in the mirror. So I. I generally like Nikki Glaser quite a bit and went into this pooh pretty like, oh, I wonder, you know, what's going on with Nikki? And I was blown away by how fantastic this thing is. She has had a very good year, and the her roast thing went really big. This special came out not long after.
- [14:17]
Jesse David Fox
Six days after.
- [14:18]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Yeah. And I do feel like the sort of order of the acclaim of those things is in the wrong way. Like, I think the roast was really Big. And that's kind of what people are going to be talking about from her this year. But this special is absolutely the thing that, like, should be just, you know, this is the reference point. And I think, God, there's any. So there's so many things that I really love about how this whole special works. But I was thinking about it particularly in reference to Bangin, which is a special that was on my best of the year list when that year came out in 2019, I think. And the way that this feels both like a very conscious development from where that special was and where she is now, but without feeling like a life update. It's like instead of doing the. It's like, here's where I was. And then the easy version is that you come out and you're like, here's what's going on in my life now. Like, I have nephews and nieces and I've been thinking about that and I'm getting a little older and here are some jokes about my neck, right? And this sort of starts from that general place and then turns it into this really, like, virtuosic hour of considerations about aging and her anxiety about not wanting to be a parent and her feelings about having a partner and being older and like, being a sexual person and her like, very specific and vivid sexual fantasies which become part of this really incredible last joke. And then all of that is very explicitly and also so hysterically tied to just this fundamental, like, and we all die realism. And I, I just was completely captivated by it. I. I often rewatch specials, but it's often because I need to write about them. And this is one of the few where I was like, I would like to rewatch it just for myself right now, particularly the ending, because I think it's one of those cases where the performance of it is just like you could look at every single little, you know, 22nd bit of it and be like, and then this and then that and then that choice. I just loved it.
- [16:58]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, I mean, it's the best joke stand up special in recent memory. I can't think of a better special where a person stays true to sort of the joke form or the joke pacing. You know, it's not story heavy. And you know, I, on this podcast use joke very loosely. But like, I mean, in this case, jokes that sound like jokes, jokes are, they're short. And she, like, resists what a lot of comedians do for, I think, craft reasons that make sense, which is they, they talk longer. We have a lot of specials coming up where people talk for a really long time. And the value of that is hypothetically, because you have more space, you can put more of yourself in. Into it. I think also, it's hard to maintain the energy of an audience for that time just taking jokes because the rhythms are sort of get whatever. And Nikki avoids that by one being very deliberate about how she paces joke structures. Like, not all jokes are. Some are sort of. She does a side she mixes and the sides with whatever. Some things are longer. You don't know where the punchline of the joke is. And the depth of thought that is in each section is tremendous. But she does not have to tell you the thoughts outright. They're just sort of in the vocabulary of the joke writing. And it is astounding. I think there's a lot of thought put into people who do specials about having kids and how that might change their life or whatever. And usually not having kids is sort of like the two jokes, which is like, kids are annoying. Oh, I have all this free time or all this free money. And she, like, really investigates it in a way you just don't see in really any art form. I think there's a moment where she says, I just have to accept I won't get to feel that sort of profound happiness. But you don't get to feel all types of happiness in life. Like, I'm never gonna do heroin. And then she sort of compares having kid to heroin. And I was like, this is one of the most profound things a comedian has done. And that's just like, one of the many things. And then it sort of talks about euthanasia for so long.
- [19:13]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Yes.
- [19:14]
Jesse David Fox
And then it talks and she does sex jokes, which is like. And it clearly she made a conscious decision that this is the thing she's interested in. And why can't it. I'm gonna start crying. Why can't it include all parts of how she is as a person? Like, why is this not like any other medium? Right. There's going to be another example that does a similar thing, but with a completely different voice of a comedian. But she is able to do sort of two things you might ask for an artist or a comedian, which is sort of like, you have this medium. How much of yourself can you put into it and convey to the audience? And also how much does it capture being alive right now? And it really is, like, tens across the board in terms of, like, achieving those things. It is. It. And what I think is so amazing about it is I kind of didn't think it was Possible. Like, I kind of didn't think a comedian could do a special of jokes like this and it be this good. I knew a comedian could tell a lot of good jokes and. But I did not think they could sort of have it reach this sort of level of transcendence by doing that. And that's why it's astounding to me. It was truly like watching. It was like when you're on a baseball team and your players throwing a perfect game, I was like, how's it gonna. Well, eventually this will sort of dip in the middle or something like that. And then, like, it sort of didn't, and it just became more profound. And then the closer is so stupendous.
- [20:51]
Catherine Van Arendonk
It also just. I mean, it evokes every single time somebody gets to the closer and then starts humping the stool.
- [20:58]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, yeah.
- [20:58]
Catherine Van Arendonk
You know, well, yeah, yeah.
- [20:59]
Jesse David Fox
It's a form. I mean, it's obviously clearly, like, in conversation with form, like, it very much is aware of set up history and, like, wants to sort of push things forward. It also looks great and deliberate without, like, being a thing.
- [21:13]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Like, it looks so great.
- [21:15]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah.
- [21:15]
Catherine Van Arendonk
And then she also gets to make a little joke about how great it looks and, like, reference the curtain behind her as being modeled on her own labia.
- [21:23]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, yeah. And it's just sort of like the small thing of, like, we're going to a different section, so the curtain's gonna look like a different color.
- [21:28]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Yeah.
- [21:28]
Jesse David Fox
Like, it's just a sort of thing to make it. So especially in a joke special, the audience knows where they are, feels where.
- [21:36]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Yes. With signposting without doing any kind of aggressive, like, over the top.
- [21:41]
Jesse David Fox
This is. Yes. This thing is attached to the joke at the beginning of this section. Yes. It's elegant. It is so smooth. Smart. Next up, Kyle kanane. Dirt nap. YouTube. Last week, I did a show in Montana and we spent Labor Day in Yellowstone national park.
- [21:58]
Catherine Van Arendonk
And it was something like, I'm sitting there watching. It's beautiful.
- [22:00]
Jesse David Fox
And watching old faithful go up. Look at this landmark. And I was just shoulder to shoulder with people, like, let's go, Brandon. T shirts and, like, don't tread on.
- [22:08]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Me hats and everything.
- [22:10]
Jesse David Fox
Just people that hate big government and hate socialism even more unironically enjoying a national park. And.
- [22:19]
Catherine Van Arendonk
I always enjoy Kyle Kanane. It is not this. The, like, a Kyle Kanane special is never, like, a Nikki Glaser special in a lot of, like, fantastic ways. He is not gonna, like, stand there in front of a beautiful curtain that's been carefully lit to delineate different elements of the, like the structure. And he, he is also not going to have conceived of the whole piece in this way where it's like the rhythm of it from the beginning to end. But he is absolutely going to be thinking about similarly existential topics as he is sort of working through what these, what these stories are like. And instead of. I mean this is sort of in a lot of ways the opposite of a Nikki special. It is not this concise, extremely pristine, rhythmically balanced joke structure. It's a guy who kind of leans back on his hip as he stands on the stage and then. And then just kind of goes. And sometimes you get these brief little bits that are clearly more like joke jokes, but they really are like. Like a little bit about the Fast and the Furious franchise.
- [23:33]
Jesse David Fox
And then that bit was 15 minutes long.
- [23:36]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Yeah, well, the thing about kind of.
- [23:38]
Jesse David Fox
Special, I'm just saying it is. It does feel like a little bit, but it's a 15 minute recounting of the sixth fast and the Furious movie.
- [23:45]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Right. So you get a 15 minute recounting of Fast and the Furious and then that's just set up for a story that he wants to tell about a cat named Dirt nap in a house. Yes.
- [23:58]
Jesse David Fox
You know, this is a joke that he did not actively work on non stop since the time in the Pandemic. But it's a joke that he passively worked on. And so it just grew partly from it just being a life he lived and a way of sorting his thoughts. Like he is not like Alex in terms of how he works on his jokes. You know, it's not a precision in that way. The same work, the same thought work is being done. The difference is Kyle just puts it all in his head. It just. He can do it. He can put the pieces together. He knows that this is part of it. Like the joke is a 50 minute thing that's like a series of vignettes that are interrelated. It is a story, but it is.
- [24:39]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Not like, does not have that like perf. You know, it begins here and then it goes to this place and then you. Yeah, yeah.
- [24:45]
Jesse David Fox
Which my favorite thing. A person, a type of storytelling that could be done. It is just extremely hard and takes a very special type of brain to see unrelated scenes as actually very much related. And he worked very hard to be like. How much of what it's like to be right now can I put into this thing how much of my world view. And that's not idea out. It is much. It's more about just Being in your voice, observing the world, observing yourself and being so good at sort of the articulating that like yourself is going to be included regardless of if you're trying to do that. Like you're just an artist who is open and is open to the audience and the audience is open to hearing your audience reveal itself. And it is a joke about COVID at a time where every comedian talked about COVID and almost no one said anything of value or of interest. No, that's extremely unfair. No one said anything novel because no pun intended. Because everyone needed the comedian just to acknowledge back that Covid happened.
- [25:59]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Yeah. Because there was. People were not open to novelty at that point.
- [26:02]
Jesse David Fox
No, they just throw. I see one comedian a year just go, remember toilet paper? And how we all did that? And they say that. And the person, that feeling of like, I'm still alive.
- [26:13]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Yeah.
- [26:13]
Jesse David Fox
That a comedian can give you, that is a value full, beautiful thing. However, it does not create the most wonderful pieces of work. This is a much more rich portrait of what life was like and the sort of strangeness of it. And where we find humanity, where we find community, where we find love. And all the while in this 50 minute story, which is the longest story any comedian has ever told, it has. Part of what's long. Is it just like he just allows for his brain to go for a walk periodically.
- [26:45]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Yeah.
- [26:46]
Jesse David Fox
Because he has a hold on this story. And he has the hold so the audience still knows where they are. So if he, you know, he brings up his dad eating a veggie burger, it's like a gay guy had an orgy. Oh, I'll keep on going on that. So now he's talking about the orgy. Then he's like, okay, so like he'll just go as far as they'll let him. But that's a matter of like having the tuning energy of the tuner on to be like, where are the lines of these things? And what can this story hold? And he built a house that held a ungodly amount of self. And then next thing you know, it's a crowning achievement for the art form.
- [27:32]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Yeah, I. It is. It is also one of those lovely elements which when the idea of the joke is such a. It's such a good metaphor for the joke itself. And the idea that you can move into these different rooms within the house while still be contained within this general larger space. And then of course, the additional layer of the. Which he makes very explicit in the joke of like, you're all trapped in these houses and the, the combination of like isolation and discovery that kind of happens inside of those spaces when you're stuck there forever. He is also, for being largely a brain that just stands in front of an audience, he is very good at doing little physical act out moments that give you a little bit, I don't want to say respite, but like that are. Change the rhythm enough of what you're watching so that you're not sort of, it never feels too static as you're sort of moving through these different or stuck in these different things. In particular, the way that he will use facial expressions as he is interacting with these neighbors, that he's kind of conjuring occasionally even just the way that he'll bend over this recycling bin as he is sort of moving stuff in and out. And it is stuff that's necessary to make a joke like this work because without it, it really, you could imagine it feeling vastly too just being heavily stuck in the place where he is. I think he's, it's just one of those people where it's like, oh, Kyle Kanan is going to do something great. Let's, let's go.
- [29:24]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, Modern master. I mean, there's a few modern masters on this list, but like, truly like, you know, it's one of those things that when you're younger, you're like, you pick comedians that you're going to like and then you're really happy when they end up being doing really interesting things. You're like, oh, I'm following an artist that's continuing to grow. Next up, Jacqueline Novak. Get on your knees. Netflix.com thank you.
- [29:49]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Despite, despite your warm welcome, that journey was hell. The journey from backstage to a microphone always is.
- [29:59]
Jesse David Fox
It's fraught.
- [30:00]
Catherine Van Arendonk
It's because for me, what it reminds.
- [30:02]
Jesse David Fox
Me of is the journey, you know.
- [30:08]
Catherine Van Arendonk
From someone's face down their torso.
- [30:20]
Jesse David Fox
Give.
- [30:20]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Them a blow job. This is one in the sort of like long, long, long, long, long development situation that is like, this would have been on a like best specials of the year list whenever it managed to finally get to a platform. But like, this is also one that I think has been destined to show up on a platform for quite a long time. And in that sense, my only, my, my only tidy bit of reticence about this special is that like, I wish it had come out a little bit closer to when I think the earlier boom of the excitement about the show was like the Alex show and the release of that special were a little bit of a tighter wave. And so this, you know, I am Thrilled like she has toured this a lot. And so there have been a lot of people who have had a chance to see this show. But of course being a special is important. It, it captures it, it is very well shot. And we'll talk about like what is, I mean what it is about that that I think does give the special sort of an additional element beyond the live performance. And part of that also is just accessibility. And all of the people who will be able to have this, who would not have been able to go to a show. The only strangeness of it was not being able to have called it a classic of a stand up special. Like, still, if for whatever reason the like earlier versions of the sort of stage versions of this thing you were not able to get to. And the special is your way in. Oh my God, you are in for an incredible treat. And it is the kind of thing that is this beautiful absolutely like tour de force combination of thinking very deeply about something and then also letting somebody's body be very much a part of how of like headiness that I find deeply, deeply appealing in performance. And like is the reason somebody stands on a stage and like uses their mouth in combination with their body and then like moves around on a stage. And yeah, it's just, it is an incredible, fantastic. It's about blowjobs, by the way.
- [32:56]
Jesse David Fox
Well, kind of the text is about blowjobs. There is not like a special that I more philosophically aligned with. So it is always hard for me to talk about because it's just sort of like. It just is exactly what I hope for comedy to have the capacity to hold. And I will disagree with you just because they will have more dramatic tension if we are disagreeing. And I don't. If it came out closer to when it was sort of a hot new thing and like, and we were writing about it and women's magazines, we written about it, then it would have been the stand up special about blowjobs. Right. And it would be like in conversation sex comedy and in conversation with sex positive feminism or whatever, which was still more in vogue when the special started working out. And like, as a person who does not think it's a special about sex at all, like I am happy that it's not like in that frame as much as it necessarily would be. Like, it's not in conversation with me too kind of at all because it's like so much further removed from it, which I do think that would be kind of how it would be covered. And if I went back probably to a Lot of the theater reviews, I bet, like, that stuff would have been talked about. Like, it would be much more about bad sexual experiences and all that stuff. And for me, and I think for Jacqueline, the blowjobs is just the freaking way to get you in the door. It is. It is really like, the thing that I talk about maybe more than anything else is like, can we talk about comedians? Not in terms of what they talk about and more in terms of how they talk about it. And this is a special that is like, what do you think? I like, yes, she cares about blowjobs, but she cares about blowjobs as a sort of entry point to get into her brain and this idea of, like, her mental self versus physical manifestation of self. But, like, it really is. Can I have a sort of topic that is enticing enough that I can give you what my brain is? Like? It's going to be special is maximalist in its content while also literally just being her in a gray T shirt and jeans. Like, it is just so much self. There are so many ideas and metaphors and it's, like, meant to be indulgent. Like, the thing that's sexual about it is its indulgence. It is not in its subject matter. And what I love about it is, like, it is a special about the inability of words to express oneself, told by a comedian who's using more words and more language than any comedian in the history of time. And that paradox is, like, what makes it so thrilling. It's a thing to see. Like, I actually had it on without the sound on earlier because, like, I was preparing for this, but also we had a meeting and I was just, like, just looking at it. And even just looking at it. She's like a glowing sprite. She can't even be captured by the spotlight that she's sort of in. It is just a person being like myself is larger than this container. And that is such an interesting thing to convey in a stand up special. I think it's deeply profound in its sort of abstract, in an abstract way and in. In a way that I think stand up isn't often done. I think stand up is like a very literal art form. And so, yeah, I mean, like, I don't know. It's not even like, Because I can't. How do I put this? I don't know what it's like for a person to watch this who is more literally litter. Literally minded and is not, like, thinking of stand up as a form and being like, oh, there's like, lots of funny Things to say about blowjobs in it. Like, I don't, like, literally have none of that. It is to me like seeing a Cezanne and someone being like, oh, I think how those oranges look cool. It's like, there's no oranges there. It is just brushstrokes. Like, that's what it is to me. And I, like deeply, more than almost anything, want people to appreciate on this level. If you this, that and your thing, fine. Like, it's funny. There's lots of funny things she says, but, like, the potential for Sanif to have that way of thinking about it. This is like the best example we have. But that's, you know, that's me. Mm. Mm.
- [37:40]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Yeah. I mean, look, I think. I think my perspective on it has to do with the fact that it is both. And then trying to. Not trying to eliminate the literal of it is also a denial of just as much of what is special about how this works, works, and that there is no way to do this without it also being an orange and some level. And the orange that you pick and why it's an orange instead of an apple is as much a part of what we're talking about as the. The form that, you know, you are trying to convey. And so. And then I think it is. It is trying to eliminate the parts of it that are, like, about female pleasure and about the body and about sexuality. Like, of course that is a huge part of this. And. And so that, you know, all of these are. Are entry points to this thing that I clearly, we are trying to suggest has a lot of different levels that you can engage with it.
- [38:43]
Jesse David Fox
Yes, yes, A great work, like, you'd hope it can do both because, like, there is an amount because, like, it needs to appeal to people whose brains literally work differently, whose experiences are differently. And like, what why a comedian tours at all is to put a thing in front of people whose brains work differently and figure out what they want to keep of the show, how they can translate themselves. Right. This is just an act of mass translation. It is a person being like, I have this brain. I want you to be able to hold it in your hands. I'm using language as a way of doing that, and I'm. And I'm using subject matters to make you care. We'll be right back with more of the best specials of the year so far.
- [39:28]
Catherine Van Arendonk
It's a new year.
- [39:29]
Jesse David Fox
Maybe you're taking a month off from drinking, you know, dried January, and maybe you're replacing it with something else. Puff, puff, pass. Something like one in five people who do dry January say they're smoking weed instead. And more Americans are now smoking weed daily than drinking daily. Current president is into it.
- [39:49]
Catherine Van Arendonk
No one should be in jail merely for using or possessing marijuana, Period.
- [39:53]
Jesse David Fox
Future president is into it. I've had friends and I've had others and doctors telling me that it's been absolutely amazing. The medical marijuana failed. President and former prosecutor was down to clown.
- [40:06]
Catherine Van Arendonk
People shouldn't have to go to jail for smoking weed.
- [40:09]
Jesse David Fox
Even health conscious brain worm guy likes it. My position on marijuana is that it should be federally legalized. Everyone's getting down with pot, but legislatively we're still stuck with a hot mess in the United States today. Explained. Wherever you listen, come find us. I'm back with Catherine Van Erodonk and we're talking about the best specials of the year so far. Next up, Ali Siddiq, the domino effect, part three, first day of school and part four, pins and needles. YouTube.com have tape and they got film and they had, they have a. They have a mountain of evidence against you. And I said, but they ain't got no concrete evidence against me. He said, that is not a legal term. I don't know what concrete evidence is, but they got a lot of sheetrock on your ass. On you, I guess. Let's start here, which is like, these are two parts of a special. They are not one thing. Why? Is that how you decided to do it?
- [41:24]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Yeah. So Domino Effect Part one was on my previous best specials list. That is still a fantastic hour. Nobody else is out here doing serialized specials. So I, you know, deeply appreciate Ali Siddiq for feeding directly into my interests and the things that I, that I really respond to, which is very long form storytelling. And they are very, very, very, very long form storytelling, but they are essentially autobiographical, sort of chronological account of his life beginning in childhood and the. If you've missed the story so far previously on Domino Effect, we got his sort of early childhood and growing up, his mother, his father, these kind of influences on him, his early school experiences. Part two, then is him moving into young adulthood and in particular the way that his father's participation in illegal drug trade then became part of his illegal participation in drug trading and what that was like for himself and his community and like the amount of money that he was able to get and what that whole world was like. And then eventually his arrest. Part three, which is one of the first one we are talking about is about this very initial stage of. Immediately begins immediately after the end of two and his arrest, from his arrest. There's like entering into a jail and then being sent to a prison and like the, the court system and sentencing and all of that. And then part four is after having been sentenced and then now you are in prison for a certain period of time and then eventually leaving.
- [43:28]
Jesse David Fox
Spoiler alert. Spoilers.
- [43:30]
Catherine Van Arendonk
He does to now be a comedian. Comedian. Stand up comedian. Yes. So three is about an hour. Four is almost two hours. Yeah, for me, three is a stronger installment than four, but they both are part of this. I mean just the real magic of him as like end of this work that he is unspooling. He is a very long form thinker. He goes. His brain works in these little small chunks except they are imbricated with each other so much that you're almost not sure when something stops and when something else starts and when he's going to loop back and when it's going to continue. He is remarkably good also at callbacks that don't necessarily feel like callbacks, at call forwards that don't have the signals that make you feel like something else will be coming later. And so the ability of these specials to feel, to feel natural when what is actually happening is, you know, a story that he is clearly shaping in certain directions and is working out is part of the, part of the magic trick of them. He is also so great at the ability to create different voices and different characters and so like the idea of a one person show where you're standing and you're creating this whole world and it is this very deeply, you know, it has these careful tonal moments and it's got that kind of this American Life Corps voice to it. For me particularly three is like every bit as much of a this American Life hour as like anything that anyone else is doing. And in fact the reference immediately for me, because I grew up listening to like just absolutely unhinged levels of npr. To me he sounds like Garrison Keillor doing like woebegone because they are these very anecdotal chunks inside this larger place and you are moving forward. But it is much more about the kind of observation of all of these interpersonal dynamics. And then we're going to go over to this little group and then this over here and the way that these people kind of he conjures them in front of you like ghosts almost and then is able to dismiss them and conjure them again and relive his own reactions to them and then turn around and respond to them. I do think there is also to go Back to the orange versus the brushstroke on the orange level here. Like, this is just remarkable storytelling about Americana. It is an incredibly vivid picture of a certain part of American life that is not usually given this kind of vivid picture in this way and is presented in just the incredible tonal range of how he sees and has thought about and has processed this space, this incredibly potent space in American life. Like. Like, to me, this is like Peabody shit. You know what I mean? It really is an accounting of, like, the world that I think so few people have have seen presented in this way. Also, I like his. This is a YouTube special. It does not have the look of that Nikki Glazer special, but he does a nice sky thing in three that I think works well.
- [47:23]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah, I'm gonna defend four just because, again, this is. What are we doing here otherwise. But the thing about four, and I've rewatched these a lot more so than probably most, considering. In total, the series went six hours long. It's four specials, but essentially it adds up to six hours. And he does a thing that I hope we. And I guess I want to appeal to sort of the audience's smart way of looking at this, which is, here are the things that happened to me in prison. Here's. This is what prison was like. He doesn't go, prison's scary. He doesn't tell you prison's a scary place. And then this happens. And that was scary. He doesn't go. People behave badly in prison. He doesn't do that either. He just goes, here are a series of things, for the most part, essentially, here are a series of things that happened in prison. And. And the first time I watched it, you're struck by them. You go like that. Well, a person who would do that is not, quote, unquote, good. And then the second time you watch this, and I'll say a specific example, he essentially is in a detention center before he gets into whatever prison he's going to. And the warden asks him, is this going to be. Is this going to be hard for you or something? That. Or is this going to be easy? Whatever. One of the other. And instead of saying yes or no, he says, I guess we'll see, right? Essentially, he says, and so they put him in the tank for people who prison will be hard for. And that tank is made up, is called the soft tank. It is made up of homosexuals and people who are cadillacing, which is essentially like, we're going to take this easy. We're not going to be in the Other tank, which is young people soon to be sentenced, sentenced to whatever prison they're going to, fighting constantly, right? Those are the two options presented to him. And. And so he talks to an older person in the prison. He's like, just relax. Like you have these years, ride it out. Why would you cause trouble? And he can't do it. He essentially hits a bunch of these people because that was the only way they said he can get out. Either you stay here or you get into fights and then we'll kick you out. So he does it. He. He fights people on purpose just to get it put into this sort of more dangerous tank. And so the first time you watch is like, he's just hitting these gay people for no reason. And then you're like, I would not. If you watch it and you think it that way, I think that's a completely reasonable way of feeling it. And I felt that way. But you also keep on watching and you're like, it's kind of, I guess, like a Martin Scorsese movie, which is like, this is a 19 year old who is put in a situation where he is afraid that if he makes a wrong decision like that, if he's put in the wrong place, who knows what will happen? Like, this is prison. This is not the real world. This is a different place. The morality of this place is different. And the way he communicates that is not saying, yeah, well, you know, prison's a place where morality is different. He doesn't treat the audience like children. He goes, here is what I did. This is the first. You know, it's called domino effect. It's about a series of things he does that are essentially incorrect to keep on leading him in the wrong place. And he goes, the first mistake I made was I said this. And then to sort of tell these stories just sort of as they are. He does not punch them up. He doesn't do little asides. He doesn't fill out the time like Kyle Kanane does with like whimsical flights of fancy. He just sort of tells them as they are. It is unclear why they are funny. I've talked to him. He's like, I'm just telling the story. Something about the way I'm telling it. I know where the funny parts are. I know how to make it funny. The story is not funny. It is a person with a level stories to tell and an a storytelling ability beyond even what we think of as a comedian. He just can do it. We have been talking a lot about time and people because of the pandemic. They had more time to work on these things. That's not exactly the case here. These are stories he's had for a while. All these six hours have come out since 2022. But as he put it, now I have an interview that will have come out by now. And he goes, what makes a special special is perspective. You can't do a special that's about current events. This is his argument, but now I'm going to see if I agree. And he goes, so I have perspective. He didn't talk about present for 17 years. So these stories have a curation and a vision to them. And the line that they walk you through is intentional. That the audience that he feels like he can reach for, which is quite large. These specials are phenomenons. He's playing large audiences. He trusts them to understand all of these things or take away what he wants to take from. That's why he's doing it. He's doing this series so people can take away from what he took, what he experienced. Because these are not pleasant experiences. And that is really a matter of having a depth of thought and a processing that one has done about their life and a person whose life is extreme and extremely an American thing. And to put the work to have done that and to be able to give it to people is. I don't know if we can sort of praise this enough. It's because it is such a giant achievement. Like the comparisons I make for it are not other stand up specials. It is like Scorsese movies, it's the Wire, it's novelistic. It is not the form that we are talking about. Like it is transcendent.
- [53:26]
Catherine Van Arendonk
I do just want to say it's so funny. Like you really have a great, fantastic time watching them.
- [53:35]
Jesse David Fox
Next up, Taylor Thompson. HaveItAll netflix.com I have to be honest, my career is going very well right now. This is the last night of the biggest tour I've ever done. I am filming my third Netflix special tonight. And recently someone was using my name and photos on a dating app. It was me. I was doing it.
- [53:58]
Catherine Van Arendonk
A very different special from the previous one we were just talking about. I wanted to include this one, I think largely because I watched it at the beginning of the year and I remember being excited about it because I think she's a. I mean, I just think she is so good at this form. And so it is one of those, you turn it on, you're like, well, here's a person who's very good at their job. And I will just watch somebody be extremely competent at the thing that they are very good at. But I was not. I. Her second special I liked very much. But there were elements of it that I felt, you know, I wanted it to be. I wanted it to come at some of its ideas from different angles. There were parts of it that I felt not like it's a very good special, but it was not one where I was like standing on the roof and being like, oh my God. You know. And this one I think is such an interesting way of doing what is essentially the Life Update kind of special, except giving that premise more of a more time to actually have a framing and a point of view that makes that Life Update into something bigger than just a. Like here is going on. Here is what's going on with me at this point. And in particular there is a way that this special is about. I mean the title is have it all and is about interrogating her own. It's not like a villain turn, but it is a kind of admission that it's okay to do a victory lap about how well things are going for you in a career sense. And then of course there is also this I think somewhat like sincere and also performative way of being like and here are all the other things that I'm not that I'm deciding like I can't have it all. I've. I've really over emphasized in this area and not in this area. But there is just a full on ownership of the like, this is who I am, this is what I'm good at. This is what I'm excited about that this special does that I found to be a like an exciting kind of development of the Persona that she has been building. And, and in general I found the like, who am I? Who am I as a comedian now that I'm a successful comedian. Articulation to be particularly well done from her.
- [56:59]
Jesse David Fox
There is something about having an audience and, and trying to in front of the audience for them to enjoy. Wrestle with the fact that like you have an audience and that is your life. It's one of the sort of central tensions of comedy that only till recently has really been explored. I think probably for a lot of reasons because having an audience up until very recently was a completely foreign concept to anybody, but now it's an extremely not foreign concept to everybody.
- [57:37]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Right.
- [57:38]
Jesse David Fox
They might not articulate it like that. You know, like people not in quote unquote media wouldn't be like I have an audience. But they have followers. Even if those followers include People they all know and have the phone numbers of that is an audience. It is weird. That is the case. So as a result, it. It takes this idea of have it all, which is to me, it's Liz Lemon coded right on forward, right? So it's like there's a full generation happened in between. Liz Lemon was saying it. And so like as a text, you're like part of the have it all idea. The sort of gendered have it all idea. What it means to be three generations removed from women entering the workplace or whatever amount of generations we are means having an audience. But it is interesting to have that, to be in conversation with the have it all concept. These two different things that have. And I don't know if she has an answer to that. I don't know if this is essentially, she's just sort of in it. I think it is a conundrum. And all the examples, all the sort of stories are in it are sort of wrestling with the. Like, you feel a. When she is sort of bitter or resentful, you do feel like she is bitter or resentful for her friends, you know, like, it is not like, I just had this joke idea about married couples. Like, it does feel like she actually does live it and wrestles with the like, feeling like my life is better than them because I host a game show. But then it's like, does my life better than them? Am I jealous of my siblings because they're queer? Like, it's like even that, like, it's like it enters into that conversation not in a sort of like, audience be proud of me way and more like.
- [59:35]
Catherine Van Arendonk
This is what I'm saying about the villain edit element of it that I find really, like legitimately kind of fascinating because there is like the beginning of her career was this unusually self possessed, seeming older than she was, but ability to feel really rooted in like the experience of people who are, you know, in their early 20s, early mid-20s and being able to articulate all those ideas. And I think there is something like, this is not the kind of going out on stage and being really honest about something like mental illness is something that, yes, is very much like people. People need to see that it is. There are lots of parts of like American culture where it still feels quite unusual and brave to stand on a stage and say, like, I, you know, I'm. These are elements that I'm dealing with. I think it's a lot less common to stand on a stage and be like, I don't know how to deal with how I Feel about like the way that this career has shaped me differently than, than my peers and the, the models that I have in my head and the models that society has given me and the way that I like, I don't know which ones I want and I kind of resent the fact that I have to perform. I just, I find it to be a really fascinating and more. More internally conflicted and I think therefore more exciting thing to watch.
- [61:19]
Jesse David Fox
There's a thing that famous people, famous comedians get that is unfair to less famous comedians who are trying their darndest, which is to. Because they are a big deal. And especially if you feel like their audience is kind of specific or gener, like homogeneous in a certain sort of generation that like anything they do then sort of. Well, that reflects where culture is at this moment, because they are a manifestation of culture in the moment. And that's like her in sort of conversation with Taylor Swift is sort of an obvious thing which is sort of like. Well, Taylor Swift's obsessions, I guess they are generationally defining because she's the most famous.
- [62:01]
Catherine Van Arendonk
By being obsessed with them, she is defining it. Yeah.
- [62:03]
Jesse David Fox
And it's not like Jesus Christ, but like she is so famous. She is as famous as Jesus Christ was and if not more. But in terms of percentage, the amount of percentage of people that are fans of her is probably comparable to the amount of percentage of the people that were alive around Jesus Christ were fans of Jesus Christ or whatever. But I mean like, so when she expresses whatever it's like to be her, like a song, like anti hero, whatever, and people like it, it's not just like when a singer songwriter writes antihero, it's that that song is the defining personality trait of a generation. And in 50 years, when they make a documentary about this time, it's like that Buffalo Springfield song or whatever.
- [62:55]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Sure.
- [62:56]
Jesse David Fox
And so that's the thing that Taylor Thompson has. When they make a documentary about whatever we are signing, we're making this documentary about having an audience. And as the reflects, blah, blah, one of these jokes will be pulled from it. Just like Richard Pryor's jokes were to talk about whatever this, the late 1970s, just like George Carlin jokes were. And the thing that she always had, even before she was famous, the reason she became famous is she just had that ability to talk about what it's like to be exactly her age at the age she is. She has perspective in the moment, which is the thing that most comedians and Most people get 10 years after they've lived it. I, you know, I have a perspective of my 20s now, or whatever she has. She knows what it's like to turn 30 when she's turning 30. And that is a superpower that will make it so she'll always be relevant. As they say, Taylor Thompson, you will always be famous.
- [63:48]
Catherine Van Arendonk
You'll always be famous. I would like, in this moment, a New York magazine fact checker to walk into this podcast and tell us whether or not the percentage of people who were into Jesus Christ is actually comparable to the percentage of people last up.
- [64:03]
Jesse David Fox
Speaking of Taylor Swift, Taylor Swift's friend Ramy Youssef. Next up, Ram Youssef. More feelings. HBO I'm done apologizing. I'm done saying that we're peaceful. For 20 years we've had to prove to people that we're safe, right? Every time you turn on cnn, there's.
- [64:17]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Like some Arab dude talking about how Islam means peace. You know that guy, but he's always shouting it.
- [64:26]
Jesse David Fox
He's always like, we come in peace.
- [64:30]
Catherine Van Arendonk
You're like, bro, that's the slogan for aliens.
- [64:34]
Jesse David Fox
That's what aliens say before they take.
- [64:36]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Over the fucking planet. It, bro, I'm done.
- [64:40]
Jesse David Fox
I'm done saying sorry.
- [64:42]
Catherine Van Arendonk
This is a special that, I mean, it is a little bit interesting to sort of bookend this list with Alex Edelman and then Rami Yousef on the other side. And just as that Alex Edelman special is very much in conversation with Judaism and the way that shapes identity, Rami Yousef's special is very much about his thinking about. It is reflective of this bump, like a more contemporary picture of Palestine and Gaza. But he was thinking about that already. Like it is a kind of the history happens to have sort of matched up with the kinds of things he was already always, always thinking about. And so it is a little bit one of those accidents of timing that like a Rami Yousef special comes out at a moment when suddenly Palestine has taken. Has like become something that is like top line headlines for months and months rather than this, you know, kind of activism that's tends to be like a second if people point to it after they are talking about whatever the current crisis is. And as is, as is always the case in his work, there is this really effective and lovely and I think really beguiling ability to connect his own personal experiences and the way that his brain works with how to think about these big global and sort of larger political issues that does not feel cloying, does not feel overly simplistic, is in fact always about turning back to these places of Emotional ambivalence while also making very clear sort of where his political allegiances are. And he begins like one of the first things he says in this special is like, he hates doing charity shows because somebody always complains about whatever charity you pick. And like the framing of politics as both deeply necessary. Like of course you would be doing charity shows and then inevitably obnoxious because of course there every way that people talk about any of these issues is always full of idiots and like laden with all kinds of things that people can complain about at any given moment that were not what you were talking about. And then the way that he goes back and, and is always so good at returning to stories about his family, stories about his childhood. I think the, the, his father and the book report is really the key sort of anecdote of.
- [67:50]
Jesse David Fox
So it's so to Note, it's a 30 minute story, ish, which is essentially about. He had to do. Rami had to do a book report about Mahatma Gandhi and essentially copied and pasted a variety of things. And then it becomes a story of lying to his dad about that he did that and his dad believing him and his dad taking great pride in this book report for the rest of his life.
- [68:09]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Anyway, back to, back to right, like this is really the. And you know, everything that I've been talking about is inside of that right, because it is about his own. He's very good at foregrounding and sort of highlighting his own flaws and then using the idea of his own ambivalence, his flaws as just refusing to fall into these very easy depictions of any one image of like who is good and who is bad in any story. He's very, very funny about his own. The, the things about him that make him human. The other thing that I always like, it's, you know, I just have to confront my own basicness. But like it is also directed by Christopher Storer and I love the way that looks. It is one of those, like, you.
- [69:04]
Jesse David Fox
Know, new thing for us to debate. I have a gripe about how it looks, but you can finish this point.
- [69:10]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Yes. My eye looks at it and it goes, ooh, Prestige television. Thank you very much.
- [69:16]
Jesse David Fox
So here's my main gripe. You've set it up perfectly. I think all stand up specials or stand up comedians should consult color season experts and Ram Youssef, the people who.
- [69:29]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Say you're in autumn.
- [69:30]
Jesse David Fox
Ram Youssef is not a winter in that special. He is wearing blues and Grayson and he's lit in blue and he looks sickly. And not in a way on purpose, because I asked to see if that was the point to make it seem. And it's like, no, they just like it was different than the last special, which was shot in a much more warm tones and looked. And he looked amazing in it.
- [69:51]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Yeah.
- [69:52]
Jesse David Fox
And so that is. That was a decision made. That is a stylistic decision made that is sort of detached from the story being told in a way for me that I. It is. It was. I don't know what it was, but I just always went back to anytime I saw anything from the. From first feelings, I go, man, Rami looks good as hell. And then I saw this and I'm like, he looks like a sick little boy. Partly because he dresses so. So baby girl, as the kids might say.
- [70:26]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Sure, sure. Yes.
- [70:27]
Jesse David Fox
As a side note, if you just want to look at a special Keith Robinson special, he's wearing this brown and it's shot in brown. It's like, oh, my God, it looks so good. Every time I see pictures of it, I'm like, ooh, baby. Someone like, really? His suit matched it. Anyway, that's a. That's my big gripe special.
- [70:45]
Catherine Van Arendonk
To be fair, I'm not. I was not thinking about color as much. I was thinking about the close ups and the way they really linger in this incredible close shot of his face from a little bit below also. And then with kind of beatific lighting behind him and that. My. My love of thinking about our main characters in ways that force us to really be. Be close to them, but also see all of the flaws in them. I think this. This really works for me and works for this special.
- [71:21]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah. Now you're making me wonder if Kris did make him look sickly on purpose. I think that would be not nice.
- [71:32]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Yeah.
- [71:33]
Jesse David Fox
So I don't think he did that because Chris Tiffer's Storr seems nice. It really is a thing of what is. So, you know, we talk about timing and what's sort of amazing about this is he both already was working and thinking in this area. Obviously he did episodes of Rami about it, but he had. So he had material that applied to this time in the Israel and Palestine and such, but he also had material responding to the expectation for him to have material about it already. Like, that was already the theme of the show.
- [72:16]
Catherine Van Arendonk
But that's exactly like any episode of Rami was always the idea and then the intense anxiety about the response to the idea. Like, it seems like it is almost a compulsive element of the way his brain works to have the thing and then the. Like. It is like the second the thing is born, its opposite is there also in his head. Which, of course, is very fascinating for somebody who. Naomi Klein, Doppelganger's. Israel, Palestine, and the way we divide things in two at all times. Right. But it also, as a comedian, as a person who is interested in and whose whole work is about perpetually interrogating the thing that you're doing. Like, it is just an astonishing thing to be able to hold both ideas exactly in tandem.
- [73:07]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah. And I think he just does a really good job of not of just sort of showing a different way of doing a special like this. Like, and it's. And it. Part of it, again, is a coincidence. Like, it was like his goal was, I want to do a special that's about this, but doesn't feel like I needed. It doesn't need to be topical. It's like he knew, oh, I'm going to do this, and it's going to feel topical, but it's not going to be topical. Because I don't think comedians should be expected to do topical specials. The sort of tonal balance of it, I think, is just sort of really stupendous. And he was a very. He's not a slow talker and he's not like a big pauser. He's not like, grandiose.
- [73:45]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Yeah. The rhythm of it is very.
- [73:46]
Jesse David Fox
He just sort of kind of goes in it and punchlines kind of slide out. Like, there is a sort of really nice, deliberate. And then. Yeah. And it makes sort of balance of. This really matters to me. Who cares what matters to me? These things do matter. It's really important. But, like, why are you coming to me for it? Don't expect anything from me. But also, like, please care what about what I'm saying? And, like, I'm. I'm just a person who is driven by id. But no, I'm not. I'm actually paralyzed by.
- [74:18]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Yeah.
- [74:21]
Jesse David Fox
I thought Feelings was good, but was a certain sort of, like, there was a, like, kind of cuteness, too. Like, it felt a little bit easy. And I think the show felt more paradoxical, and I felt the special was better at capturing that. And I thought it was cool that it opens with Steve. Like, it just sort of becomes a sort of different thing. Like, it's. It also does that same thing of decentering self. Like, oh, we're. We're just doing a bunch of comedy in a row. I just coincidentally am the second one who talks longest and my name's at the front.
- [74:52]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Yeah. Well, the other thing about the Steve, the part of that is the. Is that it is a really also fitting encapsulation of the same kind of paradoxical thinking. He's like, I'm so happy to be here and I'm just trying to kill myself. Like that. It is very much thematically in keeping with everything that Rami is about to do. Yeah.
- [75:14]
Jesse David Fox
The thing about the story at the end, which is essentially this lie that he has told his father, that it's a type of vulnerability that we don't. That is not like the capital V vulnerability that we think of when we think of a stand up comedian. Like, and I've talked to autobiographical comedians about this before. Like, I do think other than if you're talking about quote, unquote, dark subjects or like personal subjects like sex, I think the audience takes for granted that the comedians have to still talk to their friends and family afterwards. And it's not just jokes, maybe to the friends and family. And there is a risk to that that does not seem grand in its stakes, but is a risk.
- [76:00]
Catherine Van Arendonk
It's petty vulnerability.
- [76:02]
Jesse David Fox
Yeah. And it does speak to a thing of like, there is still this sort of energy of being vulnerable to it. And like, there's a truth to that vulnerability that exists and it's not, again, the. This one monolithic idea of vulnerability that we have. There is this sort of like, this is gonna come out.
- [76:25]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Yeah.
- [76:25]
Jesse David Fox
Oh, my God.
- [76:26]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Well, pettiness is huge. That's the thing about pettiness. Like, pettiness is so much more powerful than like, really big general statements. Like, they pettiness powers the world. So there is something actually just intensely potent about it.
- [76:44]
Jesse David Fox
There is something just so really sweet about, like, oh, Ram Youssef, his special, so brave. He's like, oh, does he talk about Israel, Palestine? And I was like, yeah, I guess so. But for the most part, it's because he's like, kind of reveals a lie that he's kept from his father for 20 years.
- [77:00]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Oh, that's good comedy.
- [77:03]
Jesse David Fox
Thank you, Catherine. Always a pleasure. That sounds disingenuous. I'm sorry. Thank you. I really appreciate it. But thank you. I really appreciate it.
- [77:12]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Always happy to be here. Always happy to be here.
- [77:16]
Jesse David Fox
See, that wasn't that long. That was like an hour and a half. That's it for another episode of Good One. Read Kathryn's list on vulture.com good one's produced by myself and Jelani Carter. Gavin Srinchin did our theme song, write our view and rate the show. On Apple Podcasts 5 stars. Please email any comments, questions or laughter round suggestions to goodonepodcastmail.com or tweet us oodonepod podcast. I'm Jesse David Fox and you can follow me at Jesse David Fox. Buy my book, Comedy book whoever books are sold. Thanks for listening to Good One from New York Magazine. You can subscribe to the magazine@nymag.com pod we'll be back soon. Have a good one. Welcome to Good One show about talking.
- [78:02]
Catherine Van Arendonk
Them jokes M son.
- [78:05]
Jesse David Fox
Hey Good one.
- [78:09]
Catherine Van Arendonk
It's a good one.