B (3:05)

That's beautiful.

A (3:06)

Yeah. So that was funny and also heartwarming.

B (3:09)

Yes, I know. So I want to start with a compliment, if that's okay.

A (3:13)

Okay. I think I just gave myself one.

B (3:16)

Well, this is going to be a pretty large compliment. So I was preparing for this and thinking about your career. And my thinking is you are one of the five to ten most influential comedians of the 21st century. Wow. Like you, Dave Chappelle, Maria Bamford, I think Louis ck, Mark Rubiglia, Joe Rogan, for better or for worse. But I think truly, if you look at your comedy before and after you, you are a seismic shift. So I was curious, how does it feel to hear that?

A (3:46)

Thank you. That's very nice to hear. Thank you.

B (3:48)

Like, obviously you did not go into comedy being like, I want to change this forever, but do you remember when you're starting a feeling of I'm doing something different than here? Do you remember any moment where, like, there's no one else. Exactly. Doing what I'm doing?

A (4:02)

I mean, I think that's a pretty good thing to tell yourself, regardless of who you are or what you're doing, is that there is nobody exactly like you. I think we forget about that and you get lost in, you know. But I definitely didn't feel that way in the beginning. I just felt like I had something to say. I didn't think that it was maybe the most unique thing to say. I just thought, I have something, I have to get it off my chest. And that became my career was getting things off my chest and then showing my chest was a lot about my chest. But I definitely didn't set out. No, I don't think you set out to do any of those things. You set out to be successful, to make a living, and to. A lot of people associate me with pushing boundaries. It's not something I set out to do either. That's the nature of who I am. I'm not trying to be this person. I am this person.

B (4:52)

Now that you see, I mean, now that you've seen comedy, where comedy went, can you see your Influence in other comedians or sort of where comedy is.

A (4:58)

Yeah, I can see it now. I mean, people tell me that.

B (5:01)

Yeah.

A (5:02)

And I mean, not to take away from what you just said. No, that was a very huge compliment. But people will say to me like, oh, you know, you started talking about things. I remember more pointedly publishing my very first book, which was My Horizontal Life, a collection of one night stands that was like a major. No American publishing company was going to go near a girl talking about her one night stands. I got turned down by every publisher that has since published one of my books. And the only publishing house that would publish that was Bloomsbury, which was a UK publisher. So when I look at like the landscape of what girls are allowed to say and talk about on stage or do talk about. Not that they weren't talking about that before. I'm not the only person that opened those floodgates, but I realize, oh, things have changed a lot.

B (5:51)

Yeah. That that book changed American publishing probably like forever. I mean, like, not like obviously there's more. It opened the boundaries of sort of what women can talk about. But I think just like a lot of every comedian gets to write books in a different way because of the sort of surprise success of that first book.

A (6:08)

Well, come. Yeah. And comedians weren't writing. Right. Comedians were writing autobiographies when they were like 60 or 70. Yeah.

B (6:13)

Or like really, really light. Like here's a bunch of jokes.

A (6:16)

That was a different avenue too, that it opened up. But also at the time, like I was saying what was happening. Like we were all doing that but nobody was saying it.

B (6:28)

Yeah.

A (6:28)

So that's.

B (6:29)

Did you get much pushback since it was new?

A (6:31)

Yeah, like, you know, you're crass, you're harsh, you're. It's trashy. Like things that I don't ascribe, words that don't mean anything to me. And you know, you hear those depictions or descriptors. Description. I was going to say descriptors of yourself. And you're like, wait, what? I'm not trashy. I'm not, you know, crass. And it's like I have been all of those things at some time in my life, but that's not who I am. Like, but the fact that it was read that way when, you know, men have been talking like that for ages, like, come on, we're just like women are doing, you know, that's what we spend our 20s and 30s doing. Many of us is having one night stands, fooling around with different men, hooking up with the guys that live in our apartment buildings. You know, I was writing about all of that and talking about all of that because it was true for so many of me and my friends.

B (7:15)

Yeah. What's amazing is the details of you. Do you have a photographic memory? Like, how are you able to remember so much about so much of your life?

A (7:23)

I mean, my brothers and sisters say this all the time. They'll say, like, I'll tell a story and they'll. One of them will be like, that never happened. That's never happened. And then somebody will come. But then somebody will come in and go, that's exactly what happened. So, like, they will say that I am making things up and then they'll be proven wrong. Like, I think you remember what you pay attention to, you know, what you're interested in. It's like when you meet someone and you don't remember meeting them because you weren't that blown away by that person. So you remember the moments that have the biggest impact on you. And those are the stories I'm always sharing. And yes, I embellish things plenty.

B (7:59)

Sure.

A (7:59)

But I don't lie. These stories are not made up out of thin air. They're not figments of my imagination.

B (8:05)

That would be wild if they're all. It'd be more surprising if someone was able to just think of random one night stands. One could have.

A (8:11)

Right? Right. All of my stories are rooted in fact. Like the biggest. I think the biggest thing that I do that feels inauthentic or would be deemed inauthentic is sometimes I combine two stories into one and I'll take two characters and make them one character. That's pretty much as far as I go in terms of faking something.

B (8:30)

Yeah, but then. But the details of each character are true. It's just the details of two different people. What I was curious about is always, even since the beginning, jokes from your act will go in your books. Stories from your books will go into your act. And I was wondering what that's like in practice. Like in your most recent special on your most recent book, you tell the story of meeting George W. Bush. And so I want to understand your process. But I guess for those who haven't seen or read, can you just do the short version of how you met George W. Bush?

A (8:58)

I was in Maine. It was during COVID I had rented some big house in Maine for me and 10 of my friends or my family, my brothers and sisters were there too, some of them and some friends. And it was just a random, like, you know, we were like, we Couldn't go anywhere. I'm like, we may as well have a nice view and go stay at some crazy house. And then I found out it was a Republican enclave. And I was like, let's get there sooner. I brought my dogs. It was just. It was mayhem. We had this beautiful house on the water, and my brother cooked us lobster every night. It was just. We made the best out of a bad situation. Right? That's my specialty. So anyway, the Bush twins. Somehow word had spread that I was there, and I was stuck out like a sore thumb because I was in a Republican enclave. Anyway, Barbara Bush contacted me. She ended up coming over. She and I have a friendship. She brought her mother over. Then they invited us to go over there to pickleball to Kenny Bunkport, which is the George W. Bush house and the compound of the Bush family. I was adamant about not going over there. I did not want to mingle with George W. Bush. I did not want to be seen with George W. Bush. Anyway, my whole family and all of my guests were like, you are not letting us miss out on this opportunity because of your political bullshit.

B (10:10)

Yeah, yeah.

A (10:11)

And I was like. And my sister, you know, said, just subdue your personality. Take some. Take an edible. And my brother's like, take four, because that's how much it takes for her to calm down. So that's what I did. And we went over there, and Barbara Bush assured me I would not meet her father. Because I said, I don't want to meet. I don't wanna be rude or I don't know what's gonna happen with me if I do meet your father. So I can't come to your house and act like that. That would be unforgivable. And she said, sissy. She calls me sissy. She said, do not worry. I promise you won't meet my father. And within five minutes of getting there, I met her father and her whole family. He knew I was coming. It was a hot mess. Luckily, I was so stoned that when George W. Bush was showing me his personal art paintings that he had painted himself, I was able to keep my sunglasses on because I told him, listen. He said, you know, please take your sunglasses off. And I said, I am too stoned, Mr. President. I am too stoned. So these kinds of situations happen all the time in my life. I have a magnetic attraction to ridiculousness. So something like that happens, I leave. Everyone's talking about it in our group for days on end. Everyone's like, I can't believe this happened. I can't Believe this happened. He was so sweet. I, of course, was charmed by him because I'm, you know, an idiot. And I'm like, this is exactly why I don't want to meet these people, because you'll end up liking them. But that story just became such a classic me story that I start telling it to people. And then I'm like, oh, this would be a funny story for stage and then. Or for the book. Like, a book. If I'm writing a book, I'm like, oh, is this the tone of the book? Would it fit the tone of the book? Is there a lesson? Or whatever? Is it just a funny story? So that was an instance of. It ended up in my book, and it ended up in my special. And those two things were happening at the same time. Yeah, but it's different versions. Shorter truncated version for standup, which is getting just the funniest bits, and then a longer kind of setting the table, introducing all the characters, really taking your time with the story for the book. So in my life, those two things overlap quite often. Never. And never so much so that you're not getting different pieces of work, you

B (12:25)

know, and is the processes informing each other? Like, you're writing. You know, like, it's just sort of like, okay, I'm writing the book version of this story. Is the standup version of the story, like, almost like, not in your brain? Like, how do you literally. Like, when you're at home working, how do you manage the two things? Or is the stage version just developed on stage and you figure it out?

A (12:44)

No, I think you. You. Like, I always test out my stories and, like, start telling them to people. I mean, that's kind of my. That's what I do is I tell stories. You know, that's my. Like. Like, my livelihood is just telling. Sharing my personal nonsense. And so then you write it down, and then you really get into, like, crafting it. Cause you're like, oh, okay, this is a better word than this is. And then for standup, it becomes a slightly different beast.

B (13:11)

Yeah.

A (13:12)

Um, but I enjoy both mediums. Like, I have a renewed energy and. And, like, fervor for standup because I took so much time off of standup. I took six years off. And that really was good in. In many ways. And it was bad in many ways because you kind of, you know, lose your mojo for six years and you kind of fracture your audience. But I think that, like, I'm such a language person that I love the use of language, and I like to know, like, which words are gonna have a funnier impact and how to convey a story and which part to get excited about and really to, like, be effusive when you're talking. So, like, for standup, like, I've gotten much more skillful, you know, at that.

B (13:58)

Yeah. Cause I imagine you now have a sense of this is a word in a book. Cause when people read funny, it's a different experience. So you're like, oh, this is a book that will hit a person reading funny.

A (14:09)

Right?

B (14:09)

Different. It could be a more interesting word. But you're like, oh, that's almost too interesting for the stage, because the audience will be, like, still catching up on the meaning of the word.

A (14:17)

Yes. Yes. Right. Yes. I. And I do that quite often. I throw out words, and people, like, don't use words like that. It's too stupid. And I'm like, I. Well, then look it up. If you don't know what it means, look it up. I think words are like, I. I'm very interested in etymology and different. If I don't know a word, I. I look it up.

B (14:32)

Yes.

A (14:33)

I mean, I take a vocabulary test, like, every morning on my phone. Like, it's very important for me to communicate accurately.

B (14:39)

As you said, these stories happen to you. You live in a world of famous people. How do you determine what are stories? You're allowed to tell or not allowed to tell or should tell or shouldn't tell?

A (14:49)

I mean, you're not really, you know, with. When it. When it. When it is. With regard to a lot of famous people, it depends what the situation is. If it's private, no, you can't share that. But if it's, like, a really public event, like, I remember going to Gaio series Oscar party one year, and Alec Rodriguez was, like, kind of chasing me around a little bit, and I went on Howard Stern and was just like, that guy's gross. I can't believe it. What a scumbag. Like, I would ever date him. He's dated, like, three of my girlfriends, if I'm gonna fall for that. And then I remember Guy being like, hey, that's like, a really private party, you know? Like, this is not, like, a press. There's no press involved. There's no cameras at my party. And then we became really good friends, Guy and I after that. So we. Then he started inviting me over for dinners and more, and we just became closer and closer. So it's like, I wasn't supposed to share that story. But then it really just made us closer because he reached out, and I was like, oh, sorry. I was just like. I'm like, that's me. I'm like, don't take it personally. And he's like, well, no, it's not about you. It's about other people's privacy. I'm like, yeah, sometimes things slip out. So. But for the most part, I mean, I've gotten, I think, mature enough to know when something's not, you know, shareable. Like, I have a great story about the Reiners that I can't share because of the people that were there. You know, like, certain things, with enough time, I'm sure I can. But, you know, certain things, you just have to know that you can't air people's laundry, especially if they're a public person.

B (16:18)

There's a joke in your last special in a section about anal sex where you're talking about the people you can or cannot have anal sex with, and you say, I want to quote exactly. I was like, you can't do that with 50 Cent. And then laugh and then Jo Koy, maybe, right? These are people, obviously you've dated. The audience knows that. But is. Is that a joke? You're like, oh, I know. They both would be fine with that. Is that a joke? You check with them ahead of time?

A (16:39)

No, I wasn't checking with anybody about that. I mean, I would assume they're both fine with that.

B (16:45)

What is the benefit and downside of having public relationships? Right. You get to joke about them, but then there are also these sort of public things.

A (16:53)

I don't. I have to say, I don't think there is a downside or an upside. I don't. I mean, I. I think being a public figure is very useful. It's really nice because there's not a lot of things that are going on behind the. Like, everything kind of comes out with the trash. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. So being a public. I don't have a. I don't wrestle with that relationship. I've always been at ease with being a public figure. I'm not a weirdo around people. I can deal with it. With regard to, like, my significant other. Like, I remember aft, since my relationship with Joe was so public and we were so, you know, everyone felt. It felt like everyone was rooting us on and cheering us on. That was really sweet, and that was very endearing. I had never experienced that kind of support from the public with regard to my love life. Right. So I liked that. And then when we broke up and, like, you know, I'm dating someone new now, like, I've dated people in between, but I'm dating someone new now that, you know, that I've been public about. And. And I. Someone said, like, didn't you learn your lesson the last time? I'm like, it's not a lesson.

B (17:58)

Yeah.

A (17:58)

I'm not. I'm being representative of what's happening in my life right now. If I go on a trip with somebody for two weeks to two different countries, and I'm not gonna come home and post 10 pictures on my carousel of me alone. That's fucking weird. That's weird. So I'm gonna, like, include and always be representative of what's happening in my life. And if the relationship doesn't work out, which it most likely won't, like, I'm not attached to the outcome of anything. That's who I'm hanging out with right now. And so I'm gonna be honest about it because people know that they can. That I'm gonna be honest. And I don't care if I didn't. I didn't have to learn my lesson about being public with Joe Coy. I don't regret being public with him. I thought that was sweet.

B (18:37)

Yeah. I mean, I think what I think people don't see it is like, your celebrity, broadly fine, is an extension of your work, which is just an extension of just sort of. You are acting how you act.

A (18:48)

Yeah.

B (18:49)

So it's like, of course you're gonna. It was sweet and it will end or it won't end. It's just over. It is what? You're just being honest to your audience. I think there's, like. Because it's a new generation of celebrity fans, they think it's. They create a different relationship to it than maybe in the past. But I think, for the most part, you are remarkably consistent in sort of like. Yeah, I'm just. I shared details and.

A (19:10)

Thank you. Because one of the things that I've always wanted to be in my life is consistent and reliable.

B (19:15)

Yeah.

A (19:15)

Like, you're not going. I'm not going to be fake. I'm not going to pretend something isn't true or pretend that something is true that isn't true. You know what I mean? I. I don't have any desire to do that. That's not my, like, commodity. Like, I like being real and. And whoever's in my life is. You'll probably know about it. Unless I'm embarrassed, you know, to share them.

B (19:35)

Yeah. You've become. I mean, you are a famous person, but then you're also friends with famous People. And I think, I think a lot of people would like to be friends with famous people for one reason or another.

A (19:44)

Famous people, like there isn't a recipe to be friends with famous people. You either click with. There's people I'm friends with that are famous, that are super low key and super fun and super smart. And there are people that I'm friends with that are famous, that are very high maintenance, that are very self serious, that are very private. So it's like there's not a recipe for one or the other. It's kind of like who you're attracted to. And I tend to be more attracted to people who don't take themselves so seriously. I just, as a person, that's how I am in my real life. Like I have lots of friends, lots of them are not famous and lots of them are. And it's just kind of like I act the same regardless of who I'm around.

B (20:21)

This is a small question, but I keep listening to you're reading all your books and watching all your specials in order. I kept on thinking, when did Chelsea Handler learn what Pokemon is to. To use Pikachu as a nickname for her vagina.

A (20:35)

Pikachu is a family word and it preceded Pokemon Pikachu. My mom used to go Pikachu about our Pikachus.

B (20:44)

Sure.

A (20:45)

That was not a Pokemon reference. It never was. I've always called my Pikachu Pikachu. Our family word for the boys penises was bochooky and Pikachu. So. And we spell it differently. We don't spell Pikachu the way Pikachu is spelled, but we had that word before Pikachu came.

B (21:00)

So then I guess it's a reverse question having that name for it your entire life. Then Pikachu does mean something different to audience. What is, how does, how do you wrap your head around?

A (21:08)

I don't. It's not my problem. I know what it means to me.

B (21:11)

That's fair. In your last special, you, you thank your fans saying, I have my whole career to thank for homosexual men and women. And I do think of the many things that I think you helped pioneer is you really codified the sort of I'm for gays and girls sort of comedy career. How did you, what do your fans mean to you? How did you develop that? How have that evolved over time? You know, what does it mean to you to have that fan base?

A (21:35)

It means a lot because that's to me is more valuable than the other fan base, you know, in terms of what I want to put out as a person. Like, I want to be here for women. I am a woman. So it would be terrible if I didn't care about other women. I do. I want them to succeed and thrive and, you know, not if not in the same ways I have, in ways that are very evocative of a free spirit and, like, self confidence. And I'd like to inject people with confidence. You know, my standup shows, it's, like, really about being who you are. And, like, I guess. I don't guess. I've always had a thing for underdogs, because regardless of my success or what people may look at me and think that I have, I've always felt like an underdog growing up, I always. I mean, I think we all do, you know, and even when you get into the popular crowd or you're in and you're successful, yes, it changes. But, like, underdogs are where it's at. Like, those are the people that don't get seen, and those are the people where there's, like, big stuff underneath. Like, let's get into that. So, like, somebody who's had an easy time their whole life is not. It's a lot less interesting than somebody who didn't.

B (22:40)

Yeah. And I'm curious about your approach to work more generally. So in 2014, you leave Chelsea lately kind of on short notice. I believe you just set on Howard Stern that you were done, and that's how people found out about it. Um, also, at that point, you had done four books in six years. Soon after that, you had the Netflix doc series, and then you had the two years of the Netflix show, and you described that time period as balancing a lot of things in a mediocre way?

A (23:08)

Yeah.

B (23:09)

Um, before, where you're at now, can you think of a point during those shows where you're like, this is a low point. This is. You remember being there, but also being out of your body. And, like, this is so boring. I can't believe this is how I'm

A (23:21)

spending my time during that time. It wasn't that it was so boring. It was that I was so not myself. Like, I wasn't. I didn't have my feet firmly planted in the ground. It was right before I went into, like, real therapy and kind of, like, all of the, like, bravado and all of, like, the things that you would say about me in the first part of my career, all were things that stopped working for me. And when I did my Netflix show, I just. The documentaries were one thing. I loved doing those When I did the talk show, it wasn't working, and I knew it wasn't working. And I had. You know, you have a staff and you're just trying to be a leader. And I wasn't feeling it. I wasn't on my game. I was just not firmly in the ground, like the way that I feel that I am now. And I didn't like that feeling because it felt insecure. I felt self conscious, and I wasn't being. I wasn't. It wasn't successful.

B (24:13)

Yeah.

A (24:13)

And, you know, I just wasn't. That was an area, a zone in my life that I look back at and think, oh, you, like, I recognize something was off, and then I did something about was just not. It wasn't me at my best.

B (24:29)

So in the last 10 years, you put out, I believe, three specials, two books. You have the podcast, which is a lot from. But compared to what it was my

A (24:38)

podcast, which is now on Netflix.

B (24:39)

I know they found a really easy way to get you near the show. I was thinking about that, which is like, oh, this is actually much easier than having a show with her.

A (24:47)

Yeah, totally. Exactly.

B (24:50)

Has your relationship to work changed and how has your work changed because of your relationship to work changing?

A (24:57)

I'm definitely. I definitely, like, my standup specifically is very strong and refined now because I'm present, aware, and understand everything I'm doing. Whereas before, I was just. I'd be on. I'd be doing Chelsea lately. I'd be on tour, I'd be writing a book. I'd be doing four shows in a weekend and then come flying home Sunday night to film my Monday morning show. I was just in the clouds and on, like, a hot air balloon. It was all working great, but I wasn't there. I was like, fucking partying. I was like, oh, my God, you know, this, that, that other thing. I was in one ridiculous relationship after another, toxic relationships. And I just wasn't. I didn't. I wasn't firmly planted in the ground either then, but I was like a burgeoning success. And everything I touched was just great. And, like, everything was like, oh, we're gonna give you this. I was like, oh, my God, again. And then, you know, that doesn't last. So then that, like, then when my whole Netflix period, which was, you know, that was also, like, there were some wonderful moments at times during that time. The people I got to work with, I like, I really did like working with Ted Sarandos and the women that I worked with there. Like, we had a good. Like. And it Was the first show ever on a streaming platform. You know, like, that was all exciting. So there were good things. But the overall vibe of it, I was just like, I wasn't in my groove.

B (26:15)

Yeah.

A (26:15)

And so I think how things have changed, to answer your question, is really being growing up and just being more mature and understanding my battery life and understanding what I'm good at and how to do it and to take the edge off of what I had before, which was harsh and could be harsh, and to kind of refine that and become softer, but in a gentle. Not in a way that becomes unfunny, in a way that becomes more self secure. Like I don't have to yell because I can say something and get my point across without yelling out.

B (26:50)

Yeah. And as a result, it seems like your work is more purposeful. Like you're doing the things you're doing. You're doing on purpose. Like you're with intention opposed to, like, oh, I'm. The momentum that I think your career probably.

A (27:01)

Yeah.

B (27:01)

After your first book. It is the thing that Hollywood is good at, which is like, oh, there's heat. We'll just keep on going until the person blows up.

A (27:08)

And I fell for all of it. But also you start to think about, you know, as you get older, like, you do start to think about, like, am I just taking? Am I just taking, taking, taking for myself so I can have another house here and another house there and like, I already have enough houses. What are you doing? Like, am I contributing? Am I making people feel good? What am I doing to be like a good sister to the world? Like, so, yeah, I feel much better about my contribution now. Like, before, I would throw together an hour of material just so I could go and tour. Now it's like, what am I saying? Who am I inspiring? Like, how are women gonna walk out of the theater and what are they going to feel and how are men going to feel when they walk out of the theater? I don't want them to feel like shit either. I want people to feel a little bit up. Not a little bit, a lot. Especially with the background of what the fuck's going on in our world right now. You know, it's my job to give people a reprieve. I mean, I do this for a living. And so I take it seriously. Like, I take having a really good time really seriously.

B (28:08)

Yeah. You mentioned the money aspect. And I always think of you as a person who is particularly business savvy.

A (28:14)

Yes. People say this all the time. I'm not a business savvy. I know.

B (28:16)

I think it's maybe because even like your last special, you'll tell the story of like, you saw first class and go, that's what I should be doing. I should be in first class. And you raise money for that.

A (28:23)

That's ambitious.

B (28:23)

Yes, you're ambitious, but with. Aware of the money aspect. There's people who are ambitious who are like, completely unaware the money exists. And they'll like, throw all their money down the well because they'll be ambitious to a fault, I guess. And I think it's. To your point. You're saying about how many. How many houses you have in any way. You would like to answer this. How much money do you have, how much money do you need and how much money do you want?

A (28:46)

I mean, I like my lifestyle. I've grown accustomed to it. I was accustomed to it before I was accustomed to it. I had a pretty good baseline growing up of what I didn't want. I wanted more than that. And I have it and I don't have. I like the sense of freedom that it gives me. I like the fact that I can help people. I can pick up and take off when I feel like it most of the time if I'm not committed to work. And I do do stuff like that. Like, I use my life and I use my money for. For a lot of good stuff for not just me, but for other people as well. So I'm pretty happy with the fact that I am responsible to that degree. I do have a lifestyle to maintain, to answer your question, that I like to maintain. I don't have to. I'd like to maintain. And that is why I work a lot. You know, I like and. But I also don't dislike working. I'm not at a point yet, you know, right now you've got me in a real, like, busy zone where I've been like, fucking. You know, this is my. I do this. I work, work, work, work, work. And then I crash and I go to my house in Mallorca for a month. You know, I did that last year at the end of my rope. And I went and spent a month alone. And I didn't drink and I just worked out. I took my dog there and I was like, this is one of the greatest gifts I've ever given myself. And it also gives me the kind of license to go and push it, push it, push it, push it. And then I have somewhere to like, you know, a respite. But I like what I have. I like nice things. And that's what it is.

B (30:22)

That's what it is.

A (30:23)

Yeah.

B (30:24)

You mentioned a reprieve. You were pretty candid about after the 2016 election. You had a really hard time. Like, obviously, people had hard times, but it caused you to have a midlife crisis, as you said, and you'd just be really angry all the time. You talk about you'd go to airports and try to find conservatives to yell at. How has it been now? This is during the second go at it.

A (30:47)

I'm much calmer about it, but the situation is much more terrifying. I would say it's much more acute than the first go round, but more people are hip to it now and aware of it, so I guess that's a salve. I also went to therapy and realized that that's not a good use of my time. Screaming and yelling at people who I disagree with. That's not gonna get me anywhere or them. Um, so I don't have the same reaction. I'm very fearful about the situation we're in. Uh, I've also learned one of the greatest lessons. I mean, I could have probably done without this lesson in this way, but for me personally, was to be very discerning about what kind of time I spend paying attention to the news and watching the news. Because I'm not gonna be somebody that's not gonna be informed. I am. I feel very passionately about knowing what's going on in the world and to all walks of life, not the things that impact me directly, because you could argue that none of this impacts me directly. But one of the things that I have learned is to be discerning about when to say something and when not to say something, because it just becomes like banging a drum sometimes. That's my personality, you know, If I'm screaming and yelling all the time, who cares? It's all the same bullshit. But if I come in when it's important and I'm not screaming and I'm not yelling and I'm speaking logically and I'm talking to people who I'm sure most of them agree with me already. I just think that's a nicer way for me to go through all of this and for people to go through all of this with me in their life.

B (32:12)

Can you think of a time where you decided, when you had that decision to not say something or you saw a decision and to say something?

A (32:18)

Yeah. I mean, every day there's an opportunity to say something. Every day. You know, I'm horrified by what ICE is doing to these families to that. These Children are in detention centers. I mean, you know, there's a million things, obviously. Um, but it doesn't, it's, it's very confusing to understand the whole. Like, I used to be someone who thought conspiracy theories were so stupid.

B (32:41)

Yeah.

A (32:42)

And now I'm like, well, I guess anything's possible. You know, there is a pedophilia ring. You know, there is. These guys are disgusting. Every man that is at this level is disgusting. Like, show me one of them that isn't. Yeah, that's a straight white male. You know what I mean? That hasn't done something gross at the top and top levels of earners or of government. It's just astounding. So I'm at a place now where I'm like, well, you could tell me a lot of things, I'd be like, that could be true.

B (33:07)

Yeah. Do you talk about, in your act, you talk about offering a reprieve. Does that mean I talk about and help people through it or you're like, it'll reprieve. We're going to talk about something else?

A (33:15)

No, I mean, I have enough to talk about without talking about politics. I think people know how I feel about that. They. And I don't think that's what they're coming for, you know, And I don't talk about politics in my standup because it's, it's a, to me it's very purposeful to remind people to, about laughter and joyfulness and not just, not just laughing, but joyfulness. Like, like the stories I tell. Like I, in this show, I'm on my High and mighty tour right now and like I tell about, tell all these stories about giving away LSD all over the world. I, I went on this tour a couple years ago and I had three sheets of LSD, like 600 tabs. And I just was spreading joy and sunshine around the world because I was like, and I, I really felt like I was healing people. I was like, listen, do you. And I would get such great feedback. You know, people were like. And I, and like there is, you know, regardless of how you feel about drugs, like microdosing LSD is, is a wonderful thing. It's helped a lot of people. It helps people with ptsd. There are so many medicinal properties and qualities to it. So like if you are thinking about that in that way and you are open minded and you are somebody who wants to expand instead of contract, like that is a good medicine for you. You are going to feel joyfulness, you are going to see the clouds in a way. You hadn't seen them before. Or if you're skiing through the trees, you're gonna see them. The trees, in a way you haven't seen them before. It is a very joyful experience. And that is the feeling that I want people to leave with when they come and see my show. I want them to feel hopeful and joyful about humanity. Or when I'm on stage and I look out and I see, like, a man and a woman sitting next to each other that aren't there together. And when they're laughing so hard that they're, like, rubbing shoulders together, then I feel purposeful, like I'm here to provide a reminder that humanity still exists.

B (35:04)

Yeah, I want to talk about. Yeah. That realization. Because I think you've been pretty open about the sort of coming to that realization about being sort of joy centered. And I want to take a step back to the time you talked about. You took a step back from stand up for a while. Can you talk about why you stopped and then why you ended up returning?

A (35:20)

Why did I stop? I stopped. Cause I was so burnt out when I stopped my E Show. I just was. I just. I had just, like, run ragged, run myself ragged. And I needed a break from all of it. And I just wasn't interested anymore in hearing the sound of my own voice. I really just got sick of myself, and that's why I stopped. I just wanted to stop everything.

B (35:42)

And then how did you get to I want to do it again?

A (35:46)

I wrote a book called Life will be the death of Me, and I was about my therapy experience. And I started doing a promotional tour, and they wanted me to do standup. And I was like, this isn't a standup book.

B (36:01)

Yeah.

A (36:02)

I'm like, this is a heavy subject matter. It was a lot about my brother dying and, like, delayed grief and not dealing with that death when it happened. And then I started going around and, like, doing, like, smaller venues, and I would do standup wise. I would just do, like, like the town hall in New York. I would go there and I'd do a reading of the book, and then I'd have a celebrity interview me. And then that kind of got. I was like, wait a second. You know, I had a couple people interview me, and I was like, this is terrible. Like, I need to be running the show here. These are my stories. And this isn't what people expected from me. And even though the subject matter was so weighty, I could make it funny. There were a million funny stories in that book that I could. And funny things So I. And I was really nervous to do stand up again. Cause I hadn't done it for six years. And I was like, oh, God. But I did do it and I bit the bullet and I did it. And I have a lot of pride in the fact. Cause it was like, you know, starting stand up for the first time is fucking hard. Doing it. Starting it for the second time is fucking hard. Like, someone was telling me that Eddie Murphy was, you know, a few years ago, was gonna go on tour and then he pulled out. Right. And I was like, yeah, of course he did. It's terrifying.

B (37:08)

Yeah. It's impossible.

A (37:09)

I mean, I'm not sure that's the reason, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were.

B (37:12)

Yeah, I think it's. He's built it up. So he. How do you do a first set when you're Eddie Murphy?

A (37:16)

Right, right.

B (37:17)

Because the last they saw you, you were like, literally the funniest person on earth. Yeah.

A (37:20)

And what do you walk into the Comedy store and do? 20 minutes as Eddie Murphy? I don't know.

B (37:24)

What you did is what I recommend to comedians. If they think about going back, which is like, do a Q and A and slowly kind of kill and then figure out the story.

A (37:32)

Yeah, yeah.

B (37:33)

Because it's just the audience is not expecting you to have the rules of stand up. It has a structure. And then because it's a Q and A, they're surprised. It's funny because there's like, oh, there's me.

A (37:41)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (37:43)

So that's what I mean. That's what Eddie Murphy should do if he's listening.

A (37:45)

Yeah. Well, also, it's like, people get, you know, with the seriousness of the subject matter of that book.

B (37:51)

Yeah.

A (37:52)

Like, don't. Obviously, I was going to, I was going to make it funny, but I, I, I got a lot of feedback in the beginning. Like, what is this? Why are you doing this? Why aren't you doing standup? Even my agents were like, what are you doing? Why are you doing this? This isn't. Nobody wants to see this from you. It's too serious. It's too serious. And I was like, your opinions don't matter to me at all.

B (38:10)

Yeah.

A (38:11)

At all. Like, I've got, like. You know what I mean? I don't, I don't. You have to believe in what you're doing and you have to have an idea about where it is you're going in a vision. And sometimes you don't even have the vision. But, you know, like, you have to trust yourself that you're going to find it and get there. It's like a ma. It's like a bunch of baby steps. And then eventually you're like, oh, I'm going that direction.

B (38:31)

Yeah, I think. To think about. So, like, to take a step back of what? The part you talk about in the special, that's also in the book. So essentially, you're going to therapy, and then you have a breakthrough, and you want to tell your therapist about the day you're. The last time you saw your brother, and then the day he died, and then sort of what happened afterwards. And then what? I was curious about it. I was. I listened to the audiobook first before I watched the special, just going in order. And in the audiobook, there's clearly parts you have a hard time getting through. The audiobook process is so fascinating because it's your own words, and you should be. But you're like, you do it. And then. So you have to tell the story again in that context. And now you're touring and telling the story again to this audience. So now you went from a thing that you were not talking about, thing you talked about in therapy, thing you talked about in the book, then had to read it, then you're doing it on stage, and you release that. All of that. How did it help you? Or what did you. How did you grow from the process of telling that story over and over again? You know, a story that was the thing that you sort of not. We're not talking about.

A (39:33)

You become vulnerable. Like, I was invulnerable before that. You know, before I went to therapy, before I wrote that book, before I did that, I kind of just exposed myself and was like, naked. And not in the way that I'm naked all the time.

B (39:45)

Yeah.

A (39:45)

But in naked, in the way that I'm like, okay, this is me. This is like, the ugliest part of me or the saddest part of me, or however you want to frame it. And to be okay with that and to, like, let it out. It's okay. It's okay. Like, I'm here. If I'm going to share everything about my life or, you know, lots of things about my life, it's not all going to be just, like, glorified. That's not life. And I really appreciate the fans that, like, stuck with me through that because they really did care. And it helped a lot of people that I didn't know. Like, it brought in a lot of people that were dealing with the same kinds of issues or had gone through something like That, I mean, I don't think I realized, you know, we're so solipsistic. Like, we, we don't realize how many people are going through the same fucking thing we're going through. I didn't realize how many people had lost siblings, how many people had lost a brother or a sister. I had no idea until I wrote that book and got the feedback that I got and how many people reached out to me and I was like, oh, my God, this isn't that uncommon of a thing. And that was also oddly discomforting because I really thought I had experienced something that most people did. It.

B (40:47)

Yeah.

A (40:48)

And then it became comforting.

B (40:49)

Yeah. Because I think death comes for us all and we're sort of surrounded. Like, people have a way in, however they have a way in. I was wondering because, like, when people think, when people are describing you and your books and your, your specials before that, people are like, oh, she's so honest on stage. Oh, she's so candid on stage. And then you have this, which is sort of a different amount of honest, a different amount of candid. Did it feel different? Did you realized you were, you were being truth, but in a sort of like, look over here, don't look over here way? Did your understanding of truthfulness.

A (41:22)

Yeah. Yeah. Then I was like, oh, this is really honest. Like, you thought I was honest before. Like, let's really get down to it. Yeah, it was, it was. But it was nice. Like, I, I, I liked that part of. I don't want to go back to that part of my life because it was like, you know, I was just still coming out of that, that area of time we were talking about. I didn't feel very firmly rooted, but it was, you know, that's, it was a process. It was like I had to go through all of that, obviously, to get where I, where I felt better and felt more secure. And then, you know, like, people always say, why are you so fearless? Or say things like that to me. And I'm like, I don't even think about that. I'm not trying to be fearless. Like, I, that's my personality. It's not something you learn to do. It's just like, you're born with a personality. So what comes across as fearlessness or like, I don't give a fuck attitude is, Is just my personality.

B (42:19)

Yeah. How much was the sort of breakthrough you had with those therapy sessions tied to the relative slowing down? I mean, obviously you're so, so busy, but there was a feeling, when you look at those early years of like this person trying to live maximally. I'm trying to. I'm living like I'm running out of time. Any day will be the last. And then when you look after this breakthrough, it's a person who's working hard because they want to, but not a person like, I need to any. I have to do everything all at once. I need to do all drugs every day while also working all day.

A (42:46)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm still maxing it out a lot. When I max it out, I max it out.

B (42:51)

Yeah.

A (42:51)

So I still have that. That's also part of my personality, which I've learned to understand. Like, okay, you need a break. No one is going to give me a break but myself. Like, I have to say, okay, I'm not going to work for these three months or I'm not going to do this because, you know, that's all on me. That's nobody else's problem but my own. No one's coming to save me. No one's gonna say, oh, don't do this. You need some rest. You know, I don't have parents. They're both dead and they didn't do anything when they were alive anyway with regard to my rest. So they did plenty, but not with rest. They wouldn't say, take a break. But I think that it just. You kind of recalibrate, you know, I think those stop downs are so important because you actually have to get to know yourself. Like, I had never spent time alone ever, until I quit my E Show. Like, I never went on vacation alone. I never spent time. I lived with people. People lived in my house all the time. I always had randos coming through. If my brother didn't live with me, then I had two lesbians that lived with me, that lived from. Were from Dallas, Texas. Then I had an assistant that lived with me. Then I had a neighbor. You know, like, I'm just kind of like very fluid in my lifestyle. That became to a point where I was like, okay, stop it. Yeah, stop it. What are you afraid of? Like, you have to be alone and you have to and build a relationship with yourself. And then once I got to spend some time alone, I was like, wow, you're fucking fun. I would rather just be with you, you know. So Sarah Silverman, who's a very good friend, I was just watching her this morning on a repeat of Kelly and Mark and she was saying the same thing. She was like, you know, I love being. I love my own company and that's how I feel. About myself now, but I didn't love my own company until I kind of stopped.

B (44:32)

Yeah. You said, I think one of your books that you. You set aside $250,000 for your funeral. Is that true?

A (44:37)

Yeah. But then I invested that into Nude Sticks, a makeup company that went bankrupt.

B (44:40)

So that's why you have to work so hard. You got to get it.

A (44:43)

I have to put another 250 aside for. Yeah. Is that what I'm getting paid for this interview? 250? Yeah.

B (44:48)

Pay everyone $250,000. Cool. I appreciate you coming and exciting.

A (44:52)

Yeah. I appreciate this interview. You're asking incredible questions. This is very refreshing, by the way.

B (44:56)

Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, that means a lot. The first thing I wrote down when thinking about you is like, chelsea's a searcher. And then I learned that there's a quote from the book Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl that you talk about a lot, but I want to talk about a different quote that I talk about a lot first, and then we'll get to the quote you talk about. So it's a quote. He's, you know, so those who haven't read Man's Search for Meanings, person who survived the Holocaust, and he's talking about what he's learned from that experience and just sort of giving a purposeful life. That's the basic definition of the book. So the quote I like is humor was another of the soul's weapons in the fight for self preservation. It is well known that humor, more than anything else in the human makeup, can afford an aloofness and an ability to rise above any situation, even if for only a few seconds. What does that quote mean to you? Or what if he.

A (45:47)

I was thinking if I'd be able to apply, like, whenever I think of Viktor Frankl, I just think if I would ever be able to be so enlightened as to handle a situation such as that with humor.

B (45:59)

Yeah.

A (46:00)

Like. Yeah, for a second or two.

B (46:03)

But that's really all you're. I mean, that's. When I think of it, I think about the ability to. A comedy about death. It's like I always think about, like, you're not asking someone to cure a person from being sad about it, but it's like the ability to have any reprieve at a time when you feel like you don't, I think is, like, what comedy can offer that is unique about it.

A (46:20)

Yeah, right. Which is, you know what. Yeah. Goes back to what I was saying about stand up, like, offering people an. Like an Avenue an escape for an hour of, like, you don't have to think about what's happening. You can think about this. You can think about my life, you can think about this ridiculousness. But, you know, in those situations, when I think about, like, the most terrifying situation or being, you know, you know, being in one of these ICE detention centers, you know, being treated like that, like, to be able to have humor in that situation, I don't know. I don't know that I would be able to have humor in that situation.

B (46:49)

Yeah. So the quote you. You like to talk about is it did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us. Can you talk about hearing that quote or reading that quote and realizing what that meant for you?

A (47:02)

Yeah, that was like a. Yeah, I was like, what, what? Like, I never thought. I had never ever once contemplated what, what, what. What the world was expecting. For me. It was more about, what, what do I want? What am I going to get? And that was a big moment, you know, for me, and in. In confluence with many other moments that I was experiencing during that time and really made me take a look at myself and, like, how selfish I have been and, you know, and. And. And still am in many ways, you know, I think that's part of the human condition, unfortunately, is that we are worried about ourselves and the people we love the most and the, you know, the. But also, I don't think about, like, when I think about death, like, I don't take. I don't care. Like, take me. I'm good. You know what I mean? I'm like, I'm not attached to the outcome of life either. Like, I just am not. I just don't feel that way about anything. I don't take anything too seriously. Like, if you said, I have a week to live, I'd be like, all right, well, let's. What do you want to do with that week?

B (48:05)

What do you want to do with that week?

A (48:06)

I don't know. I mean, I want to say sleep, but I mean, why would I need to sleep if I was going to die? You know, I guess I could sleep then. What would I do with that week? I guess I would just go off, you know, I would just have tons of sex and drugs and party and probably go to Mallorca with, you know, my boyfriend or someone. Group of people in my family, at some point would have to make an entrance and also to force all the people I love to do the drugs I love. That would be fun.

B (48:30)

What does Joy mean to you? What did Joy mean to you and what does Joy mean to you now?

A (48:34)

I mean, laughing is good. Period.

B (48:37)

Period.

A (48:37)

Yeah. Just wanna be la. And having gratitude is something that I didn't really get on board with until I was about 40. Gratefulness, gratitude. Really saying it every single day. It sounds really corny, but it's so important. It totally changes your vibe. You know, when I wake up and I'm in a shitty mood, I'm like, okay, I gotta change my frequency. Like get. Start writing things that are making you happy. Start writing about the things that you have in your life that most people don't think about. The things that you're grateful for, like all of it. And that just brings your frequency up. And I think that's really important to have a good vibe and to spread that.

B (49:17)

Yeah. One of the things about rereading your first two books in the context of 2026 is there are parts where you write pretty harshly about your body. In particular, you're like, you're self deprecating jokes. But it is, they're tough jokes. And it's especially interesting comparing what I think of you now as a person who like constantly is making jokes about your body where you're like posting pictures and it is more celebratory. I was curious as a sort of vector for your comedy, how is your perspective on your body evolved?

A (49:48)

You said 2026. I was writing harsh about my.

B (49:51)

I'm reading from. I was reading in 2026 your first two books.

A (49:54)

Oh, I see, I see, I see. Okay, I, I, you know, I hate to say it, but as a woman, I am harsh about my own body. Yeah, I have a harsh. I have body. Like I have body image issues. I don't like when I feel bloated. I don't like when I don't feel fit or toned or, you know, I pick myself apart in many ways. In other ways, I, you know, I go through phases or moments, you know, where I'm really confident, but I can definitely, like, I'm not immune to that. I fall into that a lot. I mean, I came home last night, I was in Aspen for three days and I was like, I feel puffy. And I came to New York City, I walked in my hotel room and weighed myself. I was like, whoa, like I put on £5. I was pissed. You know, like, I am a victim of that and I am a woman. Unfortunately, in this world where we have been geared so much to like that being part of our value. I like the way I look when I weigh a certain amount. So I am. I'm not out of the woods on that.

B (50:46)

Yeah.

A (50:47)

And I don't want to pretend that I am.

B (50:49)

That's fair. There's basically been one guy in Republican politics who's argued for regime change in Iran for years and for America to take a proactive military role in making it happen. Ambassador John Bolton, President Trump's former national security advisor. But now even Bolton says Donald Trump is messing it up.

A (51:11)

As far as we can tell, he did. No preparation of the opposition actually inside Iran. No coordination, no effort to see what they would do, no effort to support

B (51:24)

them, to provide resources, money, arms, if

A (51:27)

that's what they wanted. Telecommunications. Just no coordination at all. And they don't seem prepared for it.

B (51:34)

How Trump lost the Republican Party's biggest Iran Warhawk today. Explain every weekday and on Saturdays, too.

A (51:45)

Hi, I'm Brene Brown.

B (51:46)

And I'm Adam Grant.

A (51:47)

And we're here to invite you to the Curiosity Shop, a podcast that's a

B (51:51)

place for listening, wondering, thinking, feeling and questioning.

A (51:55)

It's going to be fun. We rarely agree, but we almost never disagree.

B (52:00)

And we're always learning.

A (52:01)

That's true. You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or following your favorite podcast app to automatically receive new episodes every Thursday.

B (52:12)

In 1984, Apple launched maybe the most consequential computer ever. It was not a good computer, particularly. There was actually a lot wrong with it. But the Macintosh had all of the right ideas about what computers would become, and it kind of changed everything. This week on Version History History, our chat show about the best and worst and most interesting products in tech history. We're telling the story of the Macintosh and why, again, despite not being very good, it managed to change everything. Anyway, that's version history on YouTube and wherever you get podcasts. So now it's time for our final segment. It's. It's not a lightning round, but it's at the end. So I. It's. It's like a lightning round, but you can take as much time as you want. Perfect.

A (52:53)

All right.

B (52:54)

Do you have a short story of an interaction with a legendary celebrity or comedian, living or dead, you were willing to share with us?

A (53:00)

Sure. I have one. I went to the Chateau at Marmont, this is probably 20 years ago. And I went with Irving Azoff and Shelley Azoff. And it was a Grammy party or something, Grammy weekend. I don't remember exactly. It was music. And I. I gave this man, he introduced me to this man, Irving Azoff, when we got to the party. And I, in the middle of our conversation. I handed him my purse, and I was like, hey, I'm gonna go over there. This man was sitting down with. And I thought he was staying there. I said, would you mind watching my purse? And I left. And then, like, two and a half hours later, I was like, where's my purse? You know? And I went over and I said, I found. Oh, I couldn't find the guy. The guy found me and came over and he said, hey, I'm leaving. I wanted to give you back your purse. And I was like, thank you. And he's like, by the way, I'm Neil Young. And I. I grew up listening. My brothers and sisters, all they did was listen to Neil Young. I grew up listening to Harvest Moon. I grew up. I fucking love Neil Young.

B (54:02)

Sure.

A (54:04)

So it was pretty ridiculous.

B (54:07)

Did you go, thank you, and then move on? Did he know that you did not.

A (54:10)

Yeah, he knew that I didn't know, or no, I don't know that he knew. I think he thought, this girl's a real piece of work.

B (54:17)

He's not going.

A (54:17)

Maybe he didn't know. I don't know.

B (54:19)

But you just sort of played it off. You're like, oh, nice to meet you.

A (54:21)

Yeah. I didn't. I. I was like, of course. I. Yeah, of course. You're Neil Young, obviously.

B (54:25)

Who's the greatest living comedian in your opinion?

A (54:31)

I mean, God, I don't know. I guess I want to say Eddie Murphy. I'd have to think about that. I'm going to go with Eddie Murphy. That's.

B (54:41)

That's a great answer. What is the best time you ever bombed?

A (54:46)

I guess I. I was at this dinner party once, and I was in Barcelona, and it was a very fancy group of people. A lot of influential, a lot of politicians, a lot of, like, big people that you would know. And they asked me to get up and give a speech, or it was like a retreat weekend. And at the end of the weekend, they asked me to get up and kind of summarize the weekend. And I was not on the payroll. You know what I mean? I was like, well, what? No, no, I'm not working. I don't want to get up in front of all these people and tell them what I think about this. And then the guy running the event, this conference, I was like. He was like, you know, please, will you do this? And I couldn't say no to him. And it was bad. I was really. It was ridiculous. I had nothing prepared. It was a lot of people. It was really loud, and I wasn't making much sense. And it was pretty funny because I left there and I just thought I was at a place in my life. I guess I was probably in my late 30s when this happened and I just was at a place in my life where I just thought, well, whatever, you know, like what it so they don't invite me back. Like, who cares?

B (55:54)

Can you name one powerful person that was there just so people have can imagine them?

A (56:01)

Ariana Huffington was there.

B (56:03)

Perfect. Perfect answer. Okay, this is the last question. You've said that if you, if you spend five minutes with a person, you can tell them what drug they should take. We spent about an hour together. Last question. What drug should I take?

A (56:13)

Well, you probably like mushrooms.

B (56:15)

Thank you very much.

A (56:16)

That's an affirmative.

B (56:19)

That's it for another episode of good One. Good One is produced by myself, Zachary Mack, Neal Janowitz and Anne Victoria Clark. Music Composed by Brandon McFarland, writer, review and rate the show on Apple Podcasts five stars please. I am Jesse David Fox and you can follow me at Jesse David Fox. Buy my book, comedy book, wherever books are sold. Thanks for listening to good one from New York magazine. You can subscribe to the magazine magazine@nymag.com pod we'll be back with a new episode next week. Have a good one.