Ebon Moss-Bachrach Talks Broadway, 'The Bear', 'Girls', and 'Fantastic Four'

Summary

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Good One: Ebon Moss-Bachrach Talks Broadway, 'The Bear', 'Girls', and 'Fantastic Four'

Podcast: Good One
Host: Jesse David Fox (Vulture)
Guest: Ebon Moss-Bachrach
Date: May 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features acclaimed actor Ebon Moss-Bachrach in a deep, candid, and often humorous conversation about his creative journey across Broadway, television, and the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Host Jesse David Fox explores Ebon's craft, the complexity of genre labels, his approach to stage versus screen acting, and stories from sets of Dog Day Afternoon (Broadway), FX's The Bear, HBO's Girls, and his upcoming role as The Thing in Fantastic Four.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Life Lately & Finding Comedy in the Everyday

• [01:53] Jesse opens by asking Ebon the funniest/strangest thing that happened to him recently.
• Ebon describes a surreal, "sci-fi cosplay" scene on the Brooklyn Bridge bike lane, encountering a skateboarder with a drone following him.
  “I was really struck by where we're at.” (Ebon) [03:21]
• The exchange reflects Ebon’s wry appreciation for the oddities and modernities of city life.

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2. The Grind & Return to Broadway

• Ebon recounts his intense work schedule: shooting blockbusters (Avengers Doomsday, Fantastic Four), indie films, The Bear season 5, and now Dog Day Afternoon on Broadway.
  “The short answer is it was a big mistake. I probably… I think I screwed up.” [05:05]
• He explains the emotional draw and difficulty of long stage runs, especially playing Sal (John Cazale’s role in the film).

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3. Embodying Sal in Dog Day Afternoon

• On honoring Cazale’s legacy while making Sal his own: “My first instinct would be to run in another direction… but I got like a… I do have a picture of him in my dressing room… I feel like a responsibility and a gauntlet, like, thrown down there.” [06:39]
• Discusses the challenge of tragic roles and the liminal space post-curtain call—shifting rapidly from despair to gratitude before the audience. “It’s like when you’ve been in the dark and all of a sudden the lights are turned on…” [10:30]

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4. The Experience & Theory of Stage Acting

• Ebon delights in listening and reacting rather than always speaking on stage.
  “That’s one of the pleasures… getting to just take this stuff in and watch and listen.” [20:59]
• Reflects on the difference between enjoying rehearsal and performing, finding community in collaboration, but also cherishing the solitude and introspection.

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5. Comedy, Drama, and Genre Frustrations

• The Bear’s “Is it a comedy?” discourse is addressed in depth: “I think the bear is really funny… What I struggle with is people pointing fingers at, like, Chris Storer and us for, like, it’s not a comedy... these are categories that have been made a long time ago… just antique and silly.” [16:06] “Don’t hate the player, hate the game.” [17:17]
• Ebon and Jesse discuss tension, structural comedy, and how playing emotional truth allows for both tragedy and humor. “I think you find comedy out of the truth of the thing.” [18:55]
• Shares a formative Gene Wilder story about playing humor for reality rather than effect.

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6. Working Within Ensembles & Collaborating

• Describes the intensity and rewards of ensemble-heavy projects—Dog Day Afternoon, The Bear, and Girls—highlighting trust, friendship, and finding love (on and off stage) in those dynamics.
• On Jon Bernthal:
  “I just have complete trust in him… I’ll run through the woods not knowing where I’m headed with him.” [22:52]
• Recalls the camaraderie and creative openness during the workshopping of new plays and the team spirit that makes collaborations fruitful. “I love getting into the rehearsal room, figuring it out with everybody…” [27:14]

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7. The Bear: Character, Evolution & Genre

• On Richie’s journey:
  “A man whose identity was kind of melting away from him and he was trying to grab onto it and preserve it.” [42:58]
• Discusses playing grief, evolving through joy (“Forks”) and how light moments are essential—even in drama. “I’m always looking… for their joy, for their happy ending, like, where’s the light?” [47:20]
• About fan reaction to “Forks”:
  “I’ve had literally hundreds of conversations with people… so moved and emotionally moved and… inspired…” [47:51]

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8. Behind the Scenes & On-set Dynamics

• Details the Bear set as warm, collaborative, and an environment that fosters creativity rather than fear. “It’s a very collaborative space… If the show works, a lot of that is because… everyone feels taken care of and entitled to contribute.” [54:30]
• Talks about the nerves and excitement of working with guest stars like Jamie Lee Curtis, Sarah Paulson, John Mulaney. “Everyone is scared and insecure in these situations… but we were so—I was so—certainly nervous…” [50:39]

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9. Being The Thing in Fantastic Four

• Ebon describes the challenge of playing an iconic character with “tens of thousands” of pages of backstory—how to honor it but remain human and fresh. “It was important to me to be as Ebon-like or whatever and human as possible.” [62:10]
• On the Thing’s loneliness and fame as an allegory: “Would he rather be in human form?… It’s the age-old superhero question… responsibility and power…” [65:41]
• Shares the advantage of the role:
  “There’s probably less than one minute of my actual face in [Fantastic Four]… I can get all the upside… but not really be, I don’t know, bombarded.” [68:07]

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10. Identity & Perspective on Fame

• Ebon is clear-eyed about fame: “I don’t think that fame and celebrity is very helpful for an actor unless you want to portray like kings or other movie stars.” [66:51] “A lot of actors before they get famous value the ability to observe people and that becomes much harder… when you are a famous person because… a lot of people are looking at you.” (Jesse) [67:41]

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Notable Quotes

• On Awards Shows & Genre:
  “Don’t hate the player, hate the game… Like, what do you want us to do, not make the show?” (Ebon) [17:11]

• On Stage & Tragedy:
  “There’s this really beautiful walk from stage left to stage right in the dark that I really cherish… It also means, like, fucking did it…” (Ebon) [09:10]

• On Collaboration:
  “I love getting into the rehearsal room, figuring it out with everybody, with the writer, the director, the other actors…” (Ebon) [27:14]

• On Comedy & Drama:
  “You find comedy out of the truth of the thing.” (Ebon) [18:55]

• On Character Joy:
  “I’m always looking when I’m playing a character for their joy, for their happy ending, like where’s the light?” (Ebon) [47:20]

• On Empathy & Acting:
  “It’s good for empathy… I like to listen… The last thing I want to be thinking about when I’m in a scene is myself.” (Ebon) [52:09]

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Memorable Moments & Timestamps

• Ebon’s “sci-fi” Brooklyn Bridge encounter – [03:21]
• Discussing Dog Day Afternoon’s legacy and honoring John Cazale – [06:39]
• Deep dive into The Bear’s genre controversies and philosophy of tension–release in art – [14:23], [16:06], [18:55]
• Richie’s arc, joy in drama, impact of “Forks” – [42:58], [47:20]
• Details from behind the scenes with celebrity guest stars in “Fishes” – [49:17]
• Approach to playing The Thing and reflections on fame – [62:10], [66:51]
• Lightning round on money, AI, best actors, and bombing – [71:44]
• Gene Hackman’s stand-in anecdote – [74:21]

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Thematic Threads

• The tension/artifice of labeling genres and the futility of ossified categories in a modern creative landscape.
• The importance of authenticity and collaborative trust, whether on stage, on set, or in rehearsal.
• The search for joy and truth beneath tragedy, both for characters and in real life.
• Navigating the potential downsides of celebrity with humility, humor, and a focus on the craft.
• The joys and complications of living in evolving artistic communities—on Broadway, in TV writers’ rooms, and on Marvel sets.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a robust, insightful look at the mind of a working actor at the top of his game, but without self-importance. Ebon Moss-Bachrach is thoughtful, wryly funny, and deeply committed—to his family, artistic truth, and the ongoing search for meaning in the messiness of human drama and comedy. Whether you’re a fan of his stage work, The Bear, or a Marvel completionist, this conversation is both entertaining and illuminating.

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Transcript

[Stephanie Wu]

If you're tired of endless scrolling to figure out where to eat, same. I'm Stephanie Wu, editor in chief of Eater. We've just launched the newish and way better Eater app. It has all the restaurants we love, gives you personalized picks wherever you are, and serves up smarter search results just for you. You can find my list of the best places for martinis and fries in New York City, and save your favorite spots, share lists, follow editors and book right in the app. Download the eater app@eaterapp. It's free for iOS users.

[Jesse David Fox]

Love don't cost a thing, but weddings sure do. I would say every single person I

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

go to and I'm like, so how much over budget are you right now? And I've. I've never heard someone say they were under budget. Matrimony's rising price tag.

[Jesse David Fox]

That's this week on Explain It To Me. Find new episodes Sundays, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

If we were to like, then submit the show for drama, like, I'm sure we would get like a bunch of pissed off people about that too. So it's like, I don't know, don't hate the player, hate the game. I mean, it's like, what do you want us to do? Like, not make the show?

[Jesse David Fox]

This is good one. I am Jesse David Fox, senior writer of Vulture and author of Comedy Book. My guest this week is Eben Moss Bachrat, one of the great actors working, be it in comedy or drama or on a famous TV show that exists in the gray area between the two. So, yeah, we talk about the bear. We also talk about Fantastic Four Girls and the stage version of Dog Day Afternoon, which Eben is currently in on Broadway. So here is Eben Moss Bachrat. I am here with Eben Moss Bakrat. Thank you for being here.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[Jesse David Fox]

So the first question we asked, what is the funniest, strangest, and most fascinating thing happened to you this week?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I was reflecting on this on my bike ride over and it just was. It was just a desert comedy desert and really was depressing, you know. But then do you ever. Do you ever. Do you cycle at all? Or do you do run or anything?

[Jesse David Fox]

Okay, I have actually. Neither are the. I am not a cardio exerciser.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Okay. Well, if you ever find yourself in the bike lane on the Brooklyn Bridge, sure. This is, this is, this is not funny. But it really. But, but I found it really interesting was that it's like a. It's become this sort of channel of people living out their kind of sci fi Cosplay sort of dreams. And the people that I passers, you know, there's all these different kind of like, I don't know, versions of electric transportation. Now, I'm not trying to sound like folksy, you know, I'm not trying to sound like, like super middle age or anything, but it's. It's wild and it's pretty cool. But there was a man. I'd never seen this. He was on. Well, first there was like a guy on, like one of those podium things, and he had like a really kind of really sophisticated looking, like, body armor and like a very yellow fly, like kind of reflective mask. But then I got behind somebody who was on one of those skateboards, like a platform, but with a big wheel in the middle of it. One big, big wheel.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yes, I know that one.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

And he had a follow drone. There was a drone flying behind him about 10ft. That was just. Maybe. Maybe it was filming him. Maybe it was just like there. And I was like that. I was really struck by where we're at.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. The modernity of this is this person's commute to work. Hypothetically.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Is intentionally having a drone follow him.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

So, yeah, I was wondering, is it for safety? Is it like an extension of the kind of the GoPro mounted on your helmet, like that kind of a thing for, like preemptive legal purposes or something? But this just felt kind of more recreational and fantasy sort of situation. So I was thrilled for him. And were I a funny, funnier person, I'm sure I could weave that raw material into some sort of a, you

[Jesse David Fox]

know, one day we'll find. One day we'll see in the Fantastic Four someone have a drone behind them, and then you'll. You'll be able to channel it.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Okay, well, yeah. Or I'll offer it up to a future guest.

[Jesse David Fox]

Sure. So if I have this correct, you shot Avengers Doomsday last spring and summer. You then shot Ira Sacks next movie and Andrew Hayes movie in the fall, which went right into shooting the fifth season of the Bear, which I believe wrapped production a few weeks before you did Dog Day. And then Dog Day runs through the summer, and then Avengers Secret wars shoots in August. That's the believe the timetable. This is all to say, why in that time in the middle, do you go, I need to do this play? Give me all the reasons. This is not a judgment. I want to. Because this is one could be like, I'm good. I got my year kind of set. But like you, this is an opportunity. Why you're like, I'm going to do this. Both.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

The short answer is it was a big mistake. I probably. I think I screwed up. The longer answer is, you know, you get. All of those are really exciting, inspiring projects to me and you sort of throw a bunch of stuff and see what sticks, you know. And this play I've been working on for a couple of years, I've been involved in workshopping it and it's been really important for me to do this and I felt like it was time to do a play again and really wanted to whatever, for any reason, but then everything kind of worked out and so I haven't. Yeah, I've been really grinding and yeah, I'm pretty tired. But this, this play is a. Is. Is a. Is a hard play. It's not. It's like. It's a very funny play. So I thought it might be kind of light and fizzy and sort of buoyant and playful and sort of lift at one point, but this, at this point for me and for my, the guy I play, his journey and everything, it's not. It's not fun, per se, you know.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, the. So the. It is. It is based on a circum. Wait, it's based on a new story that was turned into a movie, famously Dog Day Afternoon. And you play the part that in the movie was played by John Cazale. When you're thinking about the part, how did you want to hypothetically honor John's performance but also make it something that your own? Like you couldn't hypothetically do something that's so fully divorced that people like, would almost think that you're running away from it. Did you. How did you modulate that?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

My first instinct would be to. To run in another direction, you know, because he's one of the greatest film actors ever and you know, and. And also his performance was created in close ups for the most part. And just realize that on stage is sort. It's like really hard to, to make that transition. So if you can. I don't know how you do that, but you know, when you're doing. For me, when I'm doing this like long run of a play and I've got to do it 140something times, I'm like looking. I'm like hungry for inspiration anywhere, you know, and I'm. I have so much admiration for, for Ghazali and for what he stood for as, as an actor and his performances and his dedication and his curiosity and his. It was just tireless that I'm really, you know, and And I know so little about Salvatore Naturale, who was the actual man who died that day on August 22, 1972. So, like, I'm really trying to honor in my own way, I'm trying to, you know, make, you know, because I'll proud as much as I can, you know, that I don't mean, you know, that's kind of, like, lofty and sort of like, how do you. Well, how do you do that from line to line? I don't know, but there. But I got, like, a. I do have a picture of him in my dressing room, and I do feel like a responsibility and a gauntlet, like, thrown down there. Am I. Am I living up to it? Absolutely not. Like, I mean, but. But. But I'm trying.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

You know, you.

[Jesse David Fox]

You mentioned how the experience for your character in the play, it's a heavier thing. And I'm gonna ask you maybe a stupid question about acting, and you can tell me if it is.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

You've seen the play.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, I've seen the cocktail. Yeah. Which is. So Sal is a tragic character. I will not spoil the ending of the movie and the play. But it ends not well for him. So the play ends. You're in this sort of really not great situation, and then lights off, curtain call, and you have to immediately be gracious to the audience. I am curious, for an actor in a sort of more tragic part, what emotionally goes through you when you have to end the show and immediately, like, break the wall and, like, say hello and thank you to the audience? Like, can you. Are. Or are you essentially, like, putting on a new character, which is Eben, who is happy that everyone showed up? Does that make sense?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Yeah, no, no, it absolutely makes sense, and it's something I think about a lot. So there's the magical things that happen, right?

[Jesse David Fox]

Like.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Like, yeah, I. Tragically. I mean, my guy goes down, you know, he. He. You know, he bites the dust. And then the lights come down, and this other actor I'm working with, sort of in a certain part of this stage, they reach down and sort of extend their hand and sort of pick me up and resurrect me. And we. We walk off the stage together in the dark. And that's this kind of really heady, awesome moment where, you know, of, you know, the dead have risen. And I don't have any interaction with this character during the rest of the play, but we have this really beautiful walk from stage left to stage right in the dark that I really cherish this moment. It also means, like, fucking did it we could cross another one off and then the lights come on and we run out and then we get to this point where you sort of have to be gracious. And, you know, the bows are as much about thanking the audience, you know, it's. It's not. I don't think of it as, like, clap for me as it may, you know, it's a nice moment of communion between audience and players where we can sort of exchange. Everyone's sort of in the light together and we can have. We can look each other in the eyes. I'm not particularly like me, Eben, in that time. I am in a sort of weird kind of liminal space kind of thing. Not that I'm like, go deep into care, you know? You know, but it's just. It's just a lot has happened literally 30 seconds before and I'm just kind of. It's like when you've been, I don't know, in the dark and all of a sudden the lights are turned on, it takes a second for your eyes to adjust. So it's something similar to that. I've had times in my past, I've died in a bunch of plays. And in some of the other plays that I've done, I. And this is when I was a lot younger, I would do these kinds. More things like this. In a few plays, I would die and I would be gone for the last 25 minutes of the play. And then I would go out onto the street, smoke a joint and maybe like have like a shot of vodka or something and then come back and take my bow. And that was an incredible experience because that was like.

[Jesse David Fox]

That sounds nice.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I wasn't. I had nothing to do. I barely remembered the play at that point. And it was just me, Eben, walking into a room and just like having like 300 people like clap for it. And that was like, just a delightful experience.

[Jesse David Fox]

So does it take you now post show a few minutes or amount of time to like, be a person again?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I think it takes, you know, I'm not like chatty and. And the life of the party,

[Jesse David Fox]

but

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I think it's probably different from night to night. And yeah, sometimes it goes away really quickly and sometimes it doesn't. Yeah, I don't really know what. Why ever.

[Jesse David Fox]

The. The other thing is, as you're saying, it's a. It's a funny play and it plays really funny. Like, definitely, like plays funnier than the movie does, but you're often not part of that. You're. For much of the play, you're Standing in the background and people are seemingly having fun. And you sort of loom either like an emotional or physical, literal, physical pain. You also sort of like, represent the fact that any moment things can go really sideways. And he's like. Establishes the more violent character. But, like, you hear the laughter. You're there. Is. Is it something you have to fight against? Is it something you like? This is a real. Again, these are stupid questions about theater acting, but I'm just so curious. Like, people are laughing. You're. I know what it feels like to be like, I was in the audience, but also what to be on stage when people are laughing at you and it's like, exhilarating, but you have to sort of be in it. It's something that you have to fight against.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

No, it is not hard. I don't find myself getting drawn into the. The party life of what's happening. I mean, the given circumstances of these players. This is a robbery. There are hundreds of police outside, you know, that want to, like, take my character and Jon Bernthal's character sounds funny. They want to, you know, they want to lock us up. They want to take away our free. They want to put us in a cage, you know, and I. My guy is very, very. He would rather die than. Than. Than go back to prison. So that's very real. And I think what seems crazy is everybody else in the bank who seems to forget that this is a very, very serious situation. Other My. Other times, other plays that I've done, I'm guilty often of breaking laughing on stage. It's such a kind of strange, tight, like, you know, it's such a bizarre thing to do a play and absurd in so many ways that it is kind of giddy. And I have laughed and inappropriately this play so far. I. You're Is. Yeah. I'm not laughing

[Jesse David Fox]

as a fan of yours. It was hard not to somewhat think about the conversation or discourse around the idea of if the Bear is a comedy, a conversation that the sense I have is almost everyone involved in the show does not like having. Before I make whatever point I'm going to make, I want to give you the floor to talk about why you find that conversation annoying.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Well, I don't find that conversation annoying. This is cagey for you to set me up before I feel like I want to hear your take.

[Jesse David Fox]

Oh, sure, I'm happy to. This is the reason I almost as a sort of like, philosophical exercise, I've talked about the Bear as a comedy sort of on a structural level. And in my Book, Comedy book, which

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

is right over there.

[Jesse David Fox]

Okay. In stores now, but. So the idea is not unlike this play, which is like comedy beyond the sort of. It's a thing with jokes. Is it a thing that plays with tension and relieves tension? And when I watched the Bear, I see it as if anything, a. If you remove the narrative aspects of it, it is a thing that is like building up and relieving tension. It just plays with how long you can delay that tension. But all comedy is deciding the length of time between setup, which is tension building and releasing. For bear, season one, famously, it was kind of building for 10 episodes. And then at the end, the end play is, to me, extremely funny. I think in many ways, season three was all building up for the release of season four. That's. So that's how I view it. But I have a sort of comedy brain, and I think in many ways this play offers similarly plays with tension, that your character represents the tension aspect of it and everyone else gets to play in it. But if your character wasn't there, I don't think it would be as funny and. Or sort of dramatically interesting because it would be just like these people are making. You would lose the feeling of why it's odd that they're making jokes.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Yeah. Okay, so that's a lot. Okay, so let's talk about. Let's talk about the bear, for sure. I think the bear is really funny.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yes.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

You know, and I especially think that that first scene is. Season is really funny.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. 100.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

And the second season's really fun and the second season. And then, you know, but I. What I. What I struggle with a little bit is people pointing fingers at, like, Chris Storer and us for, like, it's not a comedy. Like, these are categories that have been made a long time ago, and I'm not really involved in the categories. And it's also a lot of it is, like, down to, like, the length of time that something is like. I think there's, like, technical things. So, like, if they want to create a new category, like, I'm into it because, I mean, I think that just, like, these ideas of, like, comedy and drama are a little bit, you know, antique and kind of. Kind of silly. So, I mean, I'm with. I think if we were to all of a sudden, first of all, none of us really even care about, like, this awards anyway. So, like, I was like, if we were to, like, then submit the show for Drama, like, I'm sure we would get, like, a bunch of pissed off people about that. Too. So it's like, I don't know. Don't hate the player, hate the game. I mean, it's like, what do you want us to do? Like, not make the show? I mean, I don't know. So I got. I don't have a good answer for that. And again, like, I do think it's,

[Jesse David Fox]

like,

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

a very funny show at times. I think the, like, level of volume that my character is and his. The full realization of his expression and his innermost, like, I think that stuff is really great and really funny. I also think the fifth season is a. Is a really funny season. And going back to the play and. And what. I mean, I also think that, like, humor comes out of, like, I don't tell jokes. You know what I mean? I'm not good at that. And I like jokes, but I ain't great at that. And, like, what I do think I'm, like, kind of good at is, like, committing to given circumstances and playing things for keeps. And I think when you go hard and pursue objectives and play the truth of something, I mean, there is tragedy everywhere. So I don't put on, like, a different hat for when I'm playing one thing or the other, which I'm sure you've probably heard, probably many actors say that. And I think that's right, because I think you find truth out of. I mean, I think you find comedy out of the truth of the thing. The first thing I ever did was a TV movie for Andy called Murder in a Small Town that was written by and starred Gene Wilder. And one of the things he told me, we were talking about comedy one day, and he said there was a pivotal thing in his life when he was watching Charlie Chaplin. And there was this. I can't remember which movie it was, but Charlie Chaplin is at a parade or something, and there's a man in front of him is holding a little boy. Little boy's eating a hot dog. And so Charlie Chaplin leans forward and takes a bite of the hot dog. And then the man kind of turns around and rather than, like, you know, do a whole kind of fan dance of, like, pretending, he just really, just sucks that hot dog in there and plays it, you know, you know, for real. And this was like a really. This is a turning point for. For the great Gene Wilder and something that, you know, I've always remembered.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, I think it's the idea that Steve Carell says, which is the character does not know they're in a comedy or a drama. So if you play it that way, I mean, there's like, obviously there's extreme examples where. Where you. Where comedic actors are asked to go find reality beyond sort of reality. But for the most part, in the things you're in, you're playing it real. And it's sort of. By playing in real, it can be funny if it is funny, but by playing it real, you're. It is also dramatic because you're playing it real.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

And what you change is those circumstances, and you can heighten those things and turn it into sort of absurd situations. And. But that's this. That's the external things around you. That's not the playing of the thing. So. And I. And I do think that in Dog Day Afternoon, my character has a lot of really funny lines. Like, very, very funny things happen to him and out of it, but I can't. Yeah, I can't go for those things.

[Jesse David Fox]

You can't, like, smirk.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Oh. Oh, my God.

[Jesse David Fox]

It'd be so. It would break the play if for some reason, like, if he thought he was being cute, it would, like, it would be. It would be rough.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Yeah. And I mean. And he does provide a lot of. A lot of the danger and the reminder of what is going on there. But it's. But it's. But it's lonely, I'll tell you that much. It feels lonely up there a lot of the time.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. Because you're, like standing in the back part of the stage and, like, a lot of the action's happening.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Yeah. He kind of like finds his own little corner, the thing, and just sort of watches and waits.

[Jesse David Fox]

It is an interesting thing to watch the play because I knew I was going to be talking to you, to watch mostly you and be like you. I would be like, I would feel bad for you, and obviously that's part of it. But you just be like, he doesn't get to talk, do any of this, like fun until, I guess, later in the. I guess there's some moments.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

There's some connect. No, he does have some. He does start to find some kind of connection, but it's not, you know, it's not for lack of trying. You know, they. They invite him in, they try to bring him in, but he's just not really in a place to. To hear that. But his quietness and I love listening. Like, I would rather listen than talk in any kind of part most of the time. And that's one of the pleasures of doing this play, is getting to just take this stuff in and watch and listen. And that's. I find oftentimes in movies I'm so much rather have the coverage be of the person not talking. I mean, we can hear what the person's saying anyway, so why not see what the person is thinking on the other end of the conversation?

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. I once saw. I had the pleasure of seeing Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellen Dew waiting for Googot on Broadway to do.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I didn't see it.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's one of the great experiences I've ever had, period. This is like a borderline religious experience. And at the end of that show, the characters look at each other and they sort of find love in this sort of post apocalyptic existential wasteland of the show. But as a person watching it, they're them, they're the people. And because they're so famous, they're playing with that. And you can feel underneath the relationship of those. Those people as well. And it feeds each other. This is all to say you and Jon Berenthal are friends. You. You have us, though, obviously it's a different type of show. There is a sort of like, affection. You have each other. In this sort of existential time to the show, how does your. The real life feelings you have from. Feed into. How. When you are shooting. No, sorry. How does your real life feelings feed into the performance?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Well, first of all is trust. And I just have complete trust in him as a person, as an artist, act or whatever, you know, so I'm down to kind of go down any path that he really wants to go down. You know, I'll run. I'll run through the woods not knowing where I'm headed with him. You know, that's fine. And then our relationship in the play is not our. It's not really our relationship in real life. I think for my character, I think for Sal, you know, Sonny is this sort of one connection into the world. I think he's in many ways like his sun and his moon and his mom and his dad and, you know, Jon's a lot to me, but he ain't all that, you know? Yeah, he ain't like, so. And I don't want to speak too much for John, but it's, you know, I think he's got a great deal of love. I mean, the character he's playing is an incredibly generous soul and a real, like, amazing interest in people and an ability to connect with all kinds of people, which John genuinely does have. And I think he's just. His humanity is so cranked up that he can penetrate all these shells and protective walls that Sal has put up. So I don't know the relationship's a little bit different, a lot different than our personal relationship. But there is a connection. And there's many times, you know, in the, over the course of the evening where I look in, you know, I'm looking into my friend's eyes and I do feel sort of taken care of, loved and like grateful to be there with him, which is a nice little few, very few islands. These like islands then vast, vast, like

[Jesse David Fox]

just keep you safe.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Ocean shark, shark filled waters in between the.

[Jesse David Fox]

The base. Based on some interviews I read of yours, the sense I have is you really love acting. Like even beyond your enjoyment of performance, you really love being with actors and writers and directors doing the thing of the job of making a thing. And there are some stories coming out that the, the workshopping of this show was contentious specifically between the writer and one of the producers. And I'm not asking to comment on that unless you want to.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Doesn't seem like I probably won't.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, it's not really about that. My question is really about as a person who loves the process of acting, how do you think about it or reconcile with the idea that it can be contentious, it can be an emotional space for people. Is that part of what you like about the fact that people are so invested in it?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I'm a very conflict averse person. You know, I really don't like getting into it with anybody. I want everyone around me to be happy. I certainly don't want to be the cause of anybody's unhappiness ever. That said, and then that's probably one of the reasons I like to work in this medium of theater and television film and play pretend. Because I do think it is a place where you can, in a fairly safe way and way in the back of your head, knowing that it's gonna be okay, like is you can explore these things and get into it. And that, I mean that in the course of, through a performance and also through the course of development.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

You know, because in a rehearsal room, you know, you're working with emotions and they can spill over and into arguments and sort of different viewpoints of the world. And I mean, I like that. I mean, and I think that you gotta like that or you should do something else. You should write a book or paint a painting or there's, there's plenty of ways to pursue like expression in a solitary way. So I get frustrated with people that like don't like to collaborate on the other side, like there is like, you know, I'm working with someone like Iris Sachs. Hey, these are like auteurs and they have vision. And if like I'm, I'm very, I'm good to like, be like, tell me what you want to do. This, this, this scene, this is all about camera. Like, you know, I'm not, I'm not. You know, so it goes both ways. Working on a new play. You know, I've worked on a lot of new American plays over the years and I love that because I love getting into the rehearsal room, figuring it out with everybody, with the writer, the director, the other actors and sort of helping to shape this thing and breathe life into it and give it its sort of first step. Like, you know, like filling up like the Snoopy whatever float for, you know, Thanksgiving, the night before Thanksgiving. I find that really exciting. And it's something that you do anyways on like a TV show or movie, unless you're doing a, like a. What's it called? A. A remake or something. But, but you know, but that process of creation is so much more protracted and, and in, in a rehearsal because you got like four plus weeks.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

To, to do that. So you got a lot of time in the, in the, in the kitchen really working on that stuff. So I find that really exciting. And oftentimes when the rehearsal period is over, I'm kind of like, I'm kind of good.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I'm ready to, I'm ready to go.

[Jesse David Fox]

I always say that I miss being in a band because I liked having band practice. I never really wanted to play shows. It is, it's just a rare time to like be in a space creating with other people and like having that and we perform. It's. It's not that close knit anymore. The creation. Is this sort of least for me as well. The exciting part.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Yeah, I think so. And I think that you're just exploring and pushing and trying to figure stuff out. And when there's an audience there, naturally there's going to be other. You know, I will still try to explore. And I, and I. And, and, and, and I do and play and fall on my face. I'm willing to try things always, but I think that that's harder to do. I mean, what a privilege. What an honor to get. To spend four weeks and get paid a little bit of money to, to fail and try ideas out. It's like a real, it's, it's a, it's a real joy. And I also think there's a safety there. Like the best acting I've ever seen in my life was probably in an acting class that I took when I was, like, 21, 22 years old with a bunch of people that I don't know how many of them are even still acting, but because there was, you know, these exercises and things, I would see people live these things out in such a pure, unselfconscious way. It was. I find that those spaces. Special.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. Talking about one of your collaborators, IO Debris is also on Broadway here for the first time. Is that nice? The idea that you both are, though, obviously, you've done a lot of theater. This is your first Broadway time, I believe, and this is first. Has that been nice? Have you been able to see each other in that process? You're both sort of so deep into your thing.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I haven't seen anybody. I mean, I can barely see my family. I'm not. I've seen IO a couple of times.

[Jesse David Fox]

Did you give her any advice?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

No, I'm not in a position to give anybody any advice at all. I mean, I'm certain. Certainly not. I don't know. I hope she's resting when she can. I don't. I don't think her play is open. I think they're in previews right now, and that's a hard play. She's got a very hard part, but she's, like, half my age, so she can actually. No, I think maybe when I met her, she was half mage, but she's starting to catch up.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, that's how that works. It feels like y', all, really, despite the age difference and you came from different generations of show business, you did seem to bond quite quickly. Do you have a story that captures the sort of early memories of how you all connected?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I don't think I have one kind of story that can encapsulate that. So we all took a boat ride when we were shooting the pilot. That was really nice. We went out on the lake in Chicago. Because the pilot pilot we shot in July, as opposed to the series, which you shoot, like, January, February, March, or you don't want to be on the lake in those months. So we had, like, a One really beautiful, like, eight hours cruising around on the lake there, jumping off the boat. That was fun, but I don't think that that was, like, representative of our

[Jesse David Fox]

time in any way, since you've never done that again.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Yeah, we've literally never done that again. It is a good group that really gels and, like, is together, and, you know, that's through, like, casting director Jeannie Bachrach and through Chris Storr and Joanna Callow. And then a lot of luck.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. You know, so I've waited about 30 minutes into interview to reveal that we've met before.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Okay.

[Jesse David Fox]

There'd be no reason why you remember. It'd be actually quite weird if you remember, like 20 years ago. I used to work at William Morris.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Okay.

[Jesse David Fox]

And I used. One of the jobs when you work in the mailroom. William Morris, at least at the time, was you would tape.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Oh, goodness. You've probably heard me curse a lot.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yes. So I. I often did like a lot of the comedy guys did a lot of Benchwarts auditions. But. And partly because. And maybe this will. You won't like learning this. A lot of the girls had crushes on you, so they wanted to do your auditions.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Oh, okay.

[Jesse David Fox]

But so I know I did at least a couple of yours. And my. And there was. I remember one. I think it was for the movie up in the Air. Nonetheless, the up in the Air.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

The.

[Jesse David Fox]

Jason Reitman, George Clooney.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Oh, okay.

[Jesse David Fox]

This is all to say my memory of you was you were remarkably sincere and you were doing really good acting for me. Like, I appreciate. I was very moved, but I was just like this person is. You came off not even serious, just like really earnest and sincere. Was that a fair read of who you were as an actor in your early 20s, or was it just that day or. Not really. It would be your late 20s.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

It would be my late 20s. Yeah. Was it just one time you taped me?

[Jesse David Fox]

I can't. It's hard. Again, this is 20 years.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

I was just curious, like in general, like, were you a more serious actor? Like, were you being like our typo serious actor at that time?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I mean, I was younger, so I was probably hopefully stupider. I'm hopeful I mail it out a little bit. I don't think I was ever like self important. I really hope I wasn't at that time, you know?

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Yeah. But you know, I was trying to get a job and I was trying to do good work in a. In like a. In an environment that's really not conducive to. There's absolutely nothing. Really. There's nothing.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Like anything like the taping room. Williams on the 35th floor or whatever that building is on 56th Street. And like up in the Air, like there's just. So I'm sure I was trying to connect with you because you're going to be like my lifeline. I wanted to really talk to you and I wanted to be affected by the words coming out of your mouth. And maybe if I was having a good day. I was hoping to sort of, I don't know, have fun a little bit, but I think that's representative, maybe. Did I answer your question?

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, I think so. I just sort of. I had this sort of, again, fairly vague memory. I didn't know I'd one day interview you. I mean, I followed your career, but I was not thinking, like, well, that's that guy. We had this very important connection. You did many auditions, I'm sure, at that time.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Oh, yeah, hundreds. Hundreds.

[Jesse David Fox]

Were you a good auditioner?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Nope. No, I was never a good auditioner. No. Not good at tapes. Not good in the room with directors. Just not really. Yeah, Not a great auditioner. I think there's probably a lot of people. This is like. It's a very specific skill set.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

That sometimes involves, like, a degree of, like, heightened kind of confidence and walking into a room with, like, a swagger and a kind of magnetism that I just don't really have. And I also think that, like, I don't know, I'm always just more interested in the person I'm playing rather than myself or something. I don't know.

[Jesse David Fox]

So from that point on, I would follow your career. And I watching at the time Girls felt like a breakout because you were able to sort of capture this sort of sincerity that's in you, but also sort of be able to make fun of it at the same time. And we talk a lot about at work how, especially with that show, so many people were able to go on to so much because Lena was able to write and see people in ways that then allowed everyone to see them. What do you think is about that show or her writing that really like, offered like a. A skeleton key or what's the Rosetta Stone for? Like, how did she see people? What was. So what was the gift that she had?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I don't know. I mean, she's got any. She's laser, like. I mean, and her, like, her eye, she's like, Like, I don't know, like a butterfly that can see like 20,000 colors or something, you know, like, where they're like, animal fact. She just sees stuff that is on like. Or like people that read faces that can see, like, micro expressions. She's got that level of. Of insight. And she's. She's so funny, you know, and so she has that level of insight to it, like micro strata and micro cultures, like, the difference between, you know, South Greenpoint and North Greenpoint. You know what I mean? She can really get into the weeds there. And, like, I, like, I enjoy that too, you know, and so we found. We were, like, found common ground there. And, you know, we're really able to send up this. This character that I was playing, you know, in a fun way. Because, to be honest, like, I love a lot of the same things that Desi love. Like, I was, you know, and this is like our peak artisanal Brooklyn, you know, and I was like, I. I like a. I like an indigo, you know, I like a nice Japanese kind of thing, whatever, you know, but, like. But I also realized how, like, kind of ridiculous was. And also he was, you know, he was a real baby, which is really fun and funny. And then again, like, earlier to what we're talking about, about comedy, you know, he's just, like, deeply committed, deeply serious.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you have a distinct memory from shooting any of it? Is there episode or a scene or anything that, like, when you think about the show, you think about that time.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I have a lot of memories of shooting Girls. We laughed a lot. We wrote a lot of it on the day. Lena and Jenny, and then sometimes myself, I would always, like, offer things up, and we would go back and forth and play around, and we. There was a lot of times where we would rehearse the scene in the beginning of the day, and then Lena, Jenny would go away for a little while and write and come back and we'd sort of with it with a reinvented version of it. Yeah, it was just such a pleasure. I really loved going to that set every single day. And, I mean, we did the, like, the Straw Dogs takeoff where they're out in the country. They do, like, an Airbnb app on, like, Woodstock or something. And that's when we revealed that, like, Desi's, like, popping a lot of pills and is, like, a painkiller addict, and he punches through the glass. And that was a lot of fun. I liked this one a lot.

[Jesse David Fox]

So in almost every profile of you, you push back on the desire to be the narrative that finally, at 40, whatever years old, you get your big break. You seem to have enjoyed the career that you had before the bear happened. You seem to be like, I had a successful career. I thought of yourself as successful. So before that, like, how were you feeling when. Before you even knew a thing like the bear could happen? Because how would you know? Even when you probably signed onto the bear, you weren't like, oh, this FX show will be what it became because of the timing of it. How. How are you thinking? We're like, I'm completely Content. This is exactly the career that I was hoping for. How did you.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I mean, let's see. When I went to make the pilot of the Bear, I flew from London where I was working on Star wars with Tony Gilroy.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

And my family was with me, you know, my teenage daughters and my incredible artist wife. And we were all together. And so I was like, I was. I was good, you know, I mean, I. I've been doing this a very long time. It's always been my only job. So I think that I was building a really. I mean, I have and I have. I'm very, very proud of the life that I've been managed and I've been lucky enough to sort of eke out for myself and with my family, so. And also I was a dad. By the time I was 30, I was a dad.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

And I think the 30s, especially for people in my job and other things, you know, it can be. Become very career forward, can be very me, me, me, me, me and all that stuff. And I was from before that, you know, I was already like, not the most important part of my life.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

You know, I had these other people that were like. I was much more into them than me. And so I think that just put everything. I was lucky and that put everything in a lot more perspective for me.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you think when they go to college that will change that you'll be like, now is my time maybe?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

No. One of my daughter. My daughter's at. My older daughter's at art school now and she's in college, and my younger daughter's in 10th grade. So I'm still trying to find the balance. I mean, I have been, like you said at the beginning, you know, I've had a very, very busy year. So definitely I've been spending more time working than with my family in. That's a struggle. And it's hard for me and that's hard for them. And they are very generous with me and allow, you know, encourage me to go off and do these things, but it's a struggle. Balance, I think, is always a really hard thing to find with anything. Always. From day to day and from year to year.

[Jesse David Fox]

When you first read the. The Bear pilot script, what were you most excited about?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Oh, my God, that pilot script was so great. I've said this before, but, like, all those characters really jumped out. They were like, very, very realized. And especially Richie to me, felt like. Reminded me of so many people that I knew. And also we were in such a height of isolation. And this guy was just like this like anti isolation crusader, you know, he was like, you know, take a bite of his like wet beef sandwich. You know, he didn't give a. You know, and it just felt. It's just like he was like from a different generation. He had like a different code that I. That really like appealed to me. A lot of it did.

[Jesse David Fox]

Who was he in the first episode? When you especially because you're pilot, you don't know where much else. Like who. What did you know about him? Who. How would you characterize him if you were telling people like, oh, I'm shooting this show. This is, this guy. This is what he's. This is his current state.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

He was like a man, like a man who was grieving the death of like his best friend and he was trying to hold on. There's all these things, these, these, these signposts or lighthouses, whatever you want to call these, these, these things in his life that were going away and he was losing all these things that were what. How he could sort of create his own identity. Yeah, his best friend who was sort of the, the.

[Jesse David Fox]

The.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

The leader of the house. As he was rich, he was kind of adopted by the Borzados. So it was like his brother essentially, um, and his hero in many ways. And then it seems like his, the beef, this, the. The place where he spends all his days and a lot of his nights. That place seems like it's going under, you know, and the whole neighborhood is changing. Um, and I've said this a lot, like I fully understand that living in a town like New York and every time I'm away, when I come back and drive around, it's like, okay, what's new? What's. You know, And I, and I feel very much like a lot like a tourist in my own time. Coming down here was. Was kind of wild. I like coming down to this because like, I'm never down in this neighborhood. I'm not good with money. Yeah, they don't, they don't let me in the financial district. But it's so cool down here. It's like so much stuff I never see.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

It's like all these great looking, like ancient bars and weird like off track bedding stuff. It's like it's a whole other thing down here anyways.

[Jesse David Fox]

So.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Yeah, he was like a man whose identity was kind of melting away from him and he was trying to grab onto it and preserve it.

[Jesse David Fox]

And so the last we see him, at the end of season four, Cid says for her to take over the bear. She Wants Richie to be an equal partner. Yeah. And a lot goes on. On your face. And how do you respond to that? What does that mean to that character? What did you want to convey?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Well, I think his first instinct is fear. That is, in that she's doing it out of some kind of proprietary. It's an inauthentic overture. And he's like. I think he says something like, I don't want to be the mayor of St. Patrick's Day or something like that, which is like such a. Such a funny line. And, you know, and then she reassures him that, no, this is like, she genuinely wants him there and to be equal partners. And I think it's a scary prospect. And it's like when you hear you're getting what you've always wanted, your most secret and public heart's desire. It's scary and it's beautiful and it's everything. I mean, acting wise, I think that kind of moment can probably hold any sort of reaction. And it would play. I don't remember exactly what happened. I don't. I haven't seen that episode, to be honest. We did that scene a few times. I don't remember what I did, but.

[Jesse David Fox]

So in your head, he. You have all the options of what he might have done because you gave.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I allowed myself to have any kind of reaction to that at all. It wasn't a prescriptive sort of thing.

[Jesse David Fox]

So it's like you have a sort of multiverse understanding of it where you're like, okay, there's the world in which you responded this way. And then whatever the final product is, you seem quite. You almost. I mean, I'll tell you how, if I remember correctly, essentially, it is like. It almost felt like you were in the army and someone's like, you are now promoted to a new level being. And you're like, I will serve. Like, it is your duty. And you feel honored.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Oh, right. He gets quite maybe officious in a way. Right. Like, he, like, kind of stiffened.

[Jesse David Fox]

It truly is like he stands up straight in a way that's really interesting.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Yeah, that makes sense. I'm okay with that.

[Jesse David Fox]

It did a great aspect.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

And they've obviously, you know, they've had that. That their relationship is maybe. I don't know if it's the biggest, but. But where they start out, Sidney and Richie, and where they wind up, I mean, that's. That they. They. They travel a pretty far distance to get where they are together. And so I think that's. That's pretty cool.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. Do you Think of him as a character that changes during the run of the show.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Oh, my God, so much. Don't you?

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. Oh, I don't know. I. I. Well, because we saw him in grief, I was like, well, maybe he doesn't change, but he's just like. I don't know. I was just sort of curious how you thought of the arc.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I think, you know, again, just about,

[Jesse David Fox]

like, is he responding?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

We find him in. I don't. You know, how do people change? You know, change is such a strange thing, you know, and does it. How does it happen? Does it happen slowly? Does it happen quickly? I mean, I. I don't. I don't know. It's all. All those things, and when you change it, does it. You change right back. You know, most of the time, I think for him, it's a lot of grief and healing and not being able to envision much of a future and not wanting to think about the future and having a daughter that he's not getting to be with much, and mourning a friend who's died and mourning a relationship, a wife that's no longer in love with him. And then over the course of the show, he starts to have some things that wake him up and excite him and make him think about what he wants to do during the day. And obviously, that Forks episode became something that I never thought it was in, like, a real, I don't know, lightning run. It's something that I've. I've had literally hundreds of conversations with people or so moved and. And emotionally moved and then. And then also, like, behaviorally moved by that and inspired and, like, you know, from pretty dark places. And, I mean, I didn't write that episode. You know, I didn't direct it. I got to be the face of it, and I. For that, I'm forever grateful. I didn't enjoy making it. It was very lonely. You know, I've missed being with all my friends from the Bear, you know, but. But the fact that I got to take a guy who was so angry and so. So. So tightly wound and so in so much despair and have him have, like, a victory and, like, like, tasting sauces and, like. Oh, you can, you know, like these kind of, like, childlike explosions of joy, that's, like, great. And I. I'm. I'm always looking when I'm playing a character for their joy, for their happy ending, like, where's the light? Like, I think it's very hard to root for a character if you don't see what they want for themselves. If they're just in a. Like a. A pain cave the whole time and you don't see, like, what is it like for you? What are you fighting for? You know, it's very hard for me as an audience member to have that. And it's really fun to get to play somebody who's celebrating and having a moment of being bathed in the light and feeling the sun on their face and feeling good about themselves. It doesn't happen a lot, you know, in drama, because it's not oftentimes all that interesting.

[Jesse David Fox]

John Mulaney was recently on a podcast, and he was talking about filming Fishes, the episode from season two, where there's the big non stop fighting over Christmas. And he. It was a very funny take, and he was being funny on purpose, but he said he found it very scary. He found, like that in scenes, he was, like, legitimately scared of the actors when they were screaming. I think based on how it was shot, he would walk into rooms and Jamie Lee Curtis would be yelling at someone and he'd be like, I'm just gonna get out of here. And. And he said, like, he'd be in a scene and he. And all he'd be thinking was like, they think they're that person.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Oh, John was very quiet when we were shooting that. I remember thinking, like, I kept wanting him. I kept trying to ask. I would ask him questions because I want to. I think he's so funny and so brilliant. I wanted to just listen to him telling stories. But he was quite shy when we shot that thing. And I guess he was just thinking, oh, my God, that person is that person.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, he truly was. Like, he'd be like, I'd be talking to Jon Bernthal all. Or Sarah Paulson or. Jamie's like, I think they think, like. And he didn't know who he could talk to. He just. The sense that he got was just. There's one moment in recalling his story where he improvised. Jamie Lee Curtis yells at Sarah Paulson. He improvised like, hey, hey, hey. And then Jamie goes like, shut up. Don't. Hey, hey. And he's like, I'm done.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I remember that one thing that was interesting about that, or I think it was interesting about that episode. And first of all, you get in these rooms and you think, everyone's like, I was intimidated by everybody. You know, everyone is. Everyone is scared and insecure in these situations. Like, you know, all of a sudden these. All these great actors showed up and like, we usually get. Go to work in. In vans, like, in these 15 paths, like Ford vans. And all of a sudden there was like black suv, like, oh, okay. And like we had different snacks. I think that all those people like Sarah Paulson and, and, and John and Jamie Lee, obviously. And why am I.

[Jesse David Fox]

Bob Odenkirchen.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Yeah, and Bob, like, you know, they were there because they liked the show and loved the show and revered the show. And so I think they were all nervous too, but we were so. I was certainly nervous to have all these kind of heavy hitters there.

[Jesse David Fox]

You're not, you're not shooting that scared or, and, or are you one of the people that thinks you're the person that time? Are you more like Jon or more like Jon's perception of Jamie? Jamie. In John's idea, Jamie was. I'm the mom right now. I'm this person on set. And then John is. I'm being John Malane right now. I'm saying these lines. Are you somewhere in between those two? Like, when you're doing it, are you. How deep in it? How much?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I don't know. That's a hard question to answer. That's not like, I mean, I'm always, you know, you're just trying to. It's some kind of heady cocktail of identity. I would imagine that Jamie Lee is also like, you know, she's in the scene and she's doing the thing and John, you know, said, hey, hey, hey. And she said, don't hey, hey. You know, she's just, she's a good actor. She spent thousands of hours of her life doing it and she knows how to like, play ball.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. How were you. Was there a time where you ever were like, if I'm acting, I'm that person for the, like. Were you ever fully method. Do you believe. Not believe in. Do you. What do you think about that as a style? The. The full I'm not me way of approaching it?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I don't know. I find this convers like this kind of like dilemma. I don't. First of all, I think nobody has any idea what the fuck they're talking about for the most part. I mean, I just seems like it's. It seems like a fake kind of argument or like clickbait or something. It just doesn't feel, you know, like a rumble in the Bronx with like, you know, the Stella Adler school versus, you know, the Sanford Meisner's. And they're all like out there like, whatever, improvise, improv off or so I don't know, like private momenting off. I don't know. It's always different for me. Each job is different, Each part is different. Each scene is different. And I'm trying to create as much reality for myself, and I'm trying to use as much of myself as I can, but then there's just so much imagination. And I think that that's what I'm attracted to about this job is getting to daydream and getting to think about other people and myself in different situations and different ways of being. And I don't know, it's like a. It's good. It's. It's good for empathy, you know, I think it's. I think it's good. And this is why, like, I like to listen, you know, I think that that's really, really important. There's moments, you know, acne takes a lot of concentration in a really weird way. But the last thing I want to be thinking about when I'm in a scene is myself. And all I'm trying to do is put my attention on my scene partner. Physical reality, the reality of the circumstances of the scene. What are we trying to get? What are the things that are, like, what are the obstacles? Basic stuff. And I'm just trying to give myself fully over to that stuff. So if I'm starting to think about myself, it's diminishing returns. There's no happiness over in there.

[Jesse David Fox]

That makes sense, though. Regardless of if the Bear is or is not a comedy, it seems like for you, it is. In shooting, like, you describe. Like, you think of it like you're on taxis sometimes you would say, yeah,

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

it feels like that to me.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. Where it's like you're on a workplace sitcom because it is fun to shoot the show, even if it seems like it's scary to shoot the show. What does it look like in practice?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Yeah, I mean, I've said this a lot. Like, it is. It is a really warm set, And I think it's.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

It's smart to have such a cozy kind of set because everyone feels taken care of and entitled to contribute and, like, their voice matters. And it not like, oh, if I say something, I'm gonna get shot down or. Or, you know, I'm gonna feel like an idiot. I'm gonna be ridiculed. So it's a very collaborative space. And I think a lot of the. If the show works, a lot of that is because. Because of that. That reason. And, you know, you asked me about what I was like when I was younger, and I did think maybe to some extent there was some of an idea about Suffering for art or having things had to be really hard. And I think that is the case a lot of the time. And certainly doing this play, it's. It's quite hard. And I do have to spend a lot of time in some sort of unpleasant headspaces. But I also believe in people being together and being with each other and having a good time. And out of the feeling of security and being taken care of comes a relaxation and a generosity and an ability to sort of share things that I also think is really beautiful and can be surprising and equally powerful.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. Do you, you used to play Dungeon and Dragons when you were a kid?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Yeah, I did.

[Jesse David Fox]

I did one. What was that like? But when I hear you talk about acting, I often feel like it kind of feels like that, like the ideal of like we're building a world together and this is like what we're doing for fun.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I think so. Yeah. Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you agree?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I agree.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you still have you played. What's the last time you played? I guess you now.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I think probably I haven't played since I was maybe in fifth grade.

[Jesse David Fox]

Well, I guess you now get to do it all.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

There is an amazing man. You know, I grew up outside of am Massachusetts and I would go to this after school program every day after school when I was in elementary school. And there was a. There's a man named Su Bumpus who's a professional storyteller. Like that's what he, you know, in western Massachusetts, you can do that, you can do. You can do that sometime. And just a beautiful person, an incredibly inspiring man, great musician, incredible storyteller. And he was running this after school program and he would be our dungeon master. So we didn't, you know, we had the books, but this was not a very, I'm sure like real dnd. People would think that this was a joke because he would really make up a lot of these stories and we would have the books a little bit and do some the dice things, but it was not official at all. This was. And, and I, I felt great because he allowed me and I went. When I was third grade, I was maybe one of the two third graders that he would allow to be in his game because it's more the fourth, fifth and sixth graders. So I felt really cool and an adult that I had my shit together enough to like, you know, be coming from the kickball field and like actually like play with these, the big kids and beautiful like great, great afternoons.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. Yeah. Are you allowed to. It's unclear. Are you allowed to confirm that this is the final season of the Bear.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I don't. I don't know if it. I don't think I'm allowed to confirm or not or anything or. I don't even think that I'm a reliable source. Any information about anything in my head.

[Jesse David Fox]

You're more reliable than Jam Lee Curtis was the last person, I think, who confirmed it.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Yeah. And Jam Lee Curtis says a lot of. Man, she says. She says a lot of stuff that Jam Lee, God bless her, I love her.

[Jesse David Fox]

Without spoiling it, what can you tell? You shot it. What. What did it? What can you tell us? Without telling us any details of the show,

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

what can I say? I think it's.

[Jesse David Fox]

Or what. What left do you feel like in so much he has changed, and this feels like a culmination a lot for lots before we knew there was gonna be a fifth season. People like, I guess it's the end of the fourth season, and it's like, in many ways, there's a world of the show where Richie's. This could be an end of her arc for Richie. What else does.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Oh, you mean like the. The fourth. Like the end of the fourth season could have kind of ended it. Endings are hard. I don't know. I think the fifth season is another level of sophistication. I think it's gotten richer. I'm talking about camera tone, writing. You know, I think it refines every year. It's a very ambitious season in the way that the first season was in terms of having a lot of a kind of symphonic, chaotic thing going. It's. It's. It. It's a lot of people working together, trying to work together. Maybe that's a better way to say it. I think. I just think that the. The writing's gotten better, the actors have gotten better, the camera team's gone. Everyone's, like, really was operating on a pretty. Pretty high level.

[Jesse David Fox]

When you go to nice restaurants now, do you get, like, crushed with free additions?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

After the first season came out, I think everybody got a lot of things sent out from the kitchen. Now. I don't. That doesn't happen anymore. It's like, I took my daughter out for dinner last night, and we were just, you know, paid this, paid the bill. Like all the rest of the slobs out there.

[Jesse David Fox]

All the work is up because you're like, do we need our dessert? Let's not order dessert.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

No, I will say, when I go out with a chef, when I go out with Matty Matheson or some chef friends that I made over Then it's different, but there's a different. You know, we were. We were treated like chefs for the first season for that. After that first kind of thing, I feel like I was. Felt like, embraced by that community. And then they were like, yeah, you guys are just about. You're just playing pretend. We gotta. We do this for real all the time. It's a lot harder.

[Jesse David Fox]

When the story came out about Noma and Rene Rosepe, like, the nature of his abuses, as a person who shot the show, were you, like, did it. Did you. Do you feel like you saw that story differently than people, like, from the perspective shooting that show did that. When you read that story, assume if you heard about that story.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I read some of that story. Was it New York Magazine?

[Jesse David Fox]

No, I think the first one was the Time. Yeah.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I don't know. I don't really know much about Noma. To me, that sounds like way too long to spend at a restaurant. Like, I can't sit anywhere for, like, five hours. Yeah. I don't know. It sounds like he was a dick. I do know that there's a culture of that in restaurants that's being. You know, that's probably generations old, and that's just sort of. People learned how that was done, like, in, like, in many different. In many other professions, and seems to be going away. I don't know. I hope it continues to go away.

[Jesse David Fox]

I want to talk a little bit of Fantastic Four, because hypothetically, we'll be seeing you in these movies for a while. And specifically the part of the thing not unlike the question I asked at the very beginning of this interview. How do you take on a character that there's been 9,000 interpretations of, both either on camera, but also each comic book writer has a different thing. How do you honor the history of the character, but then also make it your own?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I read so many comic books. I mean, it's like playing a real person. Like, I would. You know, it's the closest thing I ever did to. It was like, when I played John Quincy Adams and the John Adams miniseries and he had, like, a huge public memoir and then a private memoir that was published posthumously. And it's like I just had so much, you know, I could just open up and point to. The thing is like, oh, there's another detail. Same thing, you know, just tens of thousands of pages of stuff about Ben Grimm. Did I read them all? No. Did I read a lot? Absolutely. And then it's. It's just going to be. It's always going to be different because everyone's just, you know, just the nature of people are different because it was performance capture and because he was a man that was really intimate with the other members of this sort of this little de facto family of Fantastic Four. With Reed and sue and Johnny. It was important to me to be as Ebon like or whatever and human as possible. I think for the sake of my scene partners and, and for the sake of myself. So. And, and again, I like I was there in my little stretchy, not very cool looking outfit but you know, when I was doing a scene with Pedro and we were, you know, looking out at the ship, we look, we look into each other's eyes and I think that that was really helpful.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Because I think that's probably what they see when they look at, you know.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. I mean, I think it. You're task is similar to what Ben's task is, which is like many in the comics. He's trying. He's searching for the humanity as a person who's monster and you are doing essentially the same thing.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Exactly, exactly.

[Jesse David Fox]

I don't know if this, this is sort of a gray area in my mind in terms of spoiler. I'm not going to ask you for plot details, but I am going to ask you, I want to ask some emotional questions about the thing that have not necessarily been revealed in so much as at different times in the comics. He has different relationships to the sort of gift and curse of what happened to him. Often he's depicted as very lonely and he has a low self esteem or he has their self loathing about it. Do you. How would you capture where he is? Like how, how would you convey where he is kind of right now with the fact that he is a rock guy? Like is. Is. Do you feel like largely is accepted when you're playing it? You know, you have those few scenes where there, there definitely is something but I was curious how you saw it and maybe this is spoiler, but if it is, we can avoid parts of it.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I mean, I imagine like most people, you know, it's day to day, He can't. It's very hard to have a relationship. Obviously he does, you know, with Alicia Masters and then in Fantastic Four there's the beginning of a relationship with Rachel Rosman. I think that's the name of Natasha Leone's character. But you know, I mean, how far can things go? I think it's frustrating. Would he rather be in human form? I think that's probably, you know, when you're saving people and helping, you know, there's it's a responsibility. It's, it's the, it's the age old superhero question. You know, like responsibility and power and you know, and, and higher calling and all that stuff. I don't know.

[Jesse David Fox]

He's just an, he is, he's of the more interesting ones because I mean he in this sort of Spider man league of like can it be a person? Not like. Right. The other Fantastic Four can mask in a way that he can because he's a big rock guy and he has, even when he's wearing, he puts on a hat and it.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Oh yeah. They are also having more sex than he is.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

You know, so that's, so that already is, you know, you know, huge life improvement for them.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, I think so. He is also the, the Fantastic Four often or sometimes is an allegory for fame and like he, he of all them again like, like a celebrity can, he is famous in that world and, and he can't wear a baseball hat that covers his eyes and people not know him. I was curious your relationship to fame. It seemed like not a thing you wanted and I imagine there are things you are averse to it, but as you're entering to this world that like has the potential to make you an internationally known person, are there things that you're trying to put in place to make sure it does not take over your work?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Hmm. I mean I don't think that, I don't know. I, I don't think that like, and I'm not talking about myself here. I just think, I'm just saying in general, I don't think that like fame and celebrity. This is not going to be very revolutionary. But I'm going to say like, I don't think that fame and celebrity is very helpful for an actor unless you want to portray like kings or other or movie stars or something. So as nice as it is getting like oh, like a good table. You know what I mean? Like that kind of. I just think that there's, and I'm not a very famous person. So, so I don't really know but, but I just think that that's like there's more interesting.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, no, I, I, it is a thing that you seem to, I think a lot of actors before they get famous value the ability to observe people. And that becomes much harder when you are a famous person because a lot of people are looking at you and you are not as you said right now, not that, not that famous. You're famous, but not like you are not Robert Downey Jr. Right now.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Correct.

[Jesse David Fox]

But you're in. Gonna be pretty big. These are pretty big movies.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Yeah. But one of the reasons that I really liked Fantastic Four was that I am really incognito, and there's probably less than one minute of my actual face in it. And that was a huge draw. And I was like, oh, this is great. Because this is potentially. I can get all the upside of it in terms of getting to me in a position where I can help get movies made and on smaller movies and do those kinds of things that I want to do and have this great Marvel experience and work on this, like, huge movie. But then. And. But not really be, I don't know, bombarded.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. Yeah. You know, that is a good point where, like, I can't imagine that, you know, there's a Reese, there's a really good run where the thing gets to be not in the rocks for a week. Have you read that issue? And.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Yeah, but there's like, the puppet. I mean, there's a thing where, like, you get. Every year on his birthday, he gets to revert to his human form.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yes. But I can't imagine that's that's gonna happen. But I do think you. Yes, you get the benefits, but not like, you can. It helps be a. If you want to do more Broadway plays, that's the type of thing that helps a tunnel.

[Maria Sharapova]

I'm Maria Sharapova, and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough. Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Follow Pretty Tough wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Mitch. First two time NWSL champion, championship mvp, and forward for the US Women's National Team. Before I went pro, I graduated from Harvard with a degree in psychology, which comes in handy more than you think. Any athlete pursuing greatness knows there's a certain mentality you have to have. What people don't know is what that costs. In my podcast, Confessions of an Elite Athlete, I sit down with the best athletes in the world and explore the psychology mindset in unseen battles on the path to greatness. So take a seat and learn from the Confessions of an elite athlete on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Matt Buechel]

Hey, I'm Matt Buchel, comedian, writer, and floating head. You may or may not have Seen on your. For your page. And I'm starting a brand new, new podcast. Wait, wait, don't swipe away. It's called that sounds like a lot. As in that feeling when you check your phone in the morning, you read three headlines and you immediately think, oh, that sounds like a lot. I can't deal with all this, but guess what? I can deal with it. And I'm gonna get into it. Every Friday, I'll break down whatever chaos is happening in the world. Then I'll sit down with a comedian. You can be progressive and not be, like, fucking annoying. Maybe an actor.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

They go, feminism has gone too far. You go, why?

[Jesse David Fox]

Because the Sadie Hawkins dance happened?

[Matt Buechel]

Maybe a film. Since leaving that show, I'm challenged sparingly.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I just kind of hang out and try to do. You're the one with a charmed life.

[Matt Buechel]

Could be a politician. Basically anyone who responds to my cold dms. We're recording the whole thing in a beautiful studio. So, yes, you can watch it on YouTube or you can listen wherever you get your podcast. This is not the place to get the news, but it is the place to feel a little better about it. That sounds like a lot. Part of the Vox Media podcast network.

[Jesse David Fox]

I'm seeing if they have any.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Yeah, okay.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

No, no, no. But I'm just The final. That sounded. That sounded severe.

[Jesse David Fox]

No, it's like a lightning round. But these questions are not. You don't have to answer them quickly. They're just questions I ask every time. So as a result, I put them at the end.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Okay.

[Jesse David Fox]

But I have not thought of a different name for it. This is the final segment.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Okay.

[Jesse David Fox]

However you want to answer this. How much money do you have or make?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I took the subway to my dentist appointment this morning. I biked to our meeting.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

And then I'll take a car to the play tonight.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

So how is that.

[Jesse David Fox]

That is a perfect answer.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I don't know. I'm already filled with regret for answering that question like that. I don't know. I would like to answer it with a gesture that you couldn't hear on the podcast, but I can't think about that gesture.

[Jesse David Fox]

Oh, the camera. That's your camera.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Oh, right. Oh, yeah. I don't know.

[Jesse David Fox]

What is your. What is your concerns or if. If you have any optimism around AI and your industry?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Oh, yeah. I mean, no, thanks. I. I think already so much stuff feels like it's made by AI and it's. It's. It's just lazy and depressing and not. I don't think at the end of the day, what people want out of stories, man. Yeah, no, thanks.

[Jesse David Fox]

In your opinion, who's the greatest actor alive?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I imagine, and I'm not trying to be coy, but I imagine the greatest actor alive is probably an actor that none of us know, you know, we've never seen. There's probably. Maybe they don't even know themselves what a great actor they are in a more satisfying, direct way. To answer who's great American actors? I think Peter Sarsgaard is one of our great actors. I think Jesse Buckley's so brilliant, obviously. Who else do I get really excited about? Benicio Del Toro. I always am so thrilled to watch him.

[Jesse David Fox]

I don't know.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I'm just thinking of, like. I think Jeremy Allen White is pretty incredible actor. You know, I think probably my favorite actor is the recently departed Robert Duvall and Gene Hackman. Those two are guys that I've always looked up to, Did such a variety of work, you know, and we're always so truthful and authentic.

[Jesse David Fox]

You got to work with Gene, correct? In Tenenbaus.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

What was that like?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I mean, I barely. I mean, I think I was there for a day, and I think we were probably in the same room just when the cameras were rolling. I remember his stand in more than I remember him.

[Jesse David Fox]

What was his stand in like?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Oh, and his stand in looked a lot like him and was, like, as gruff as you would imagine Gene Hackman was. He was. He was. Yeah. He didn't disappoint me. He was great.

[Jesse David Fox]

What is the best time you bombed? Can you think of a time you've bombed or had a really bad day on set or on stage?

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I mean, there was a long period and it's, you know, where I just hated every day. I never, like, the drive home from work was always horrible. And I just talk about all the missed opportunities and all the things I didn't do, and it was just filled with regret and wishing I could go back. That's one of the nice reasons of doing a play, is you do get another crack at it, you know, for every single. Every single time except the last time, you know, so that'll be a lonely ride home. But. Yeah, I can't think of any specific time but it. But, you know, it's fraught. It's. It's. It's not easy.

[Jesse David Fox]

Can you think of a creative decision or a choice that you wanted to make in some sort of setting that everyone shot down but you. You will always. You'll go to a grade feeling like I was right. That would have been better or that would have been good or that aligned.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

I mean, I know when, when, when, when John and I were working on the first season of the Punisher,

[Jesse David Fox]

I'm

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

always looking for unconventional and surprising things. I was just looking for humor a lot of the time in sort of more serious situations because I think that's true to life. And I think we had a lot of ideas that were vetoed and not really given life or not really even considered that were would have made the show better.

[Jesse David Fox]

Thank you so much.

[Eben Moss-Bachrach]

Thank you. Pleasure.

[Jesse David Fox]

That's it for another episode of Good One. Good One is produced by myself, Zachary Mack, Neal Janowitz and Ann Victoria Clark. Music Composed by Brandon McFarlane. Write a review and rate the show on Apple Podcasts. Five stars, please. I am Jesse David Fox and you can follow me at Jesse David Fox. Buy my book, comedy book, wherever books are sold. Thanks for listening to Good one from New York Magazine. You can subscribe to the [e-mail] pod we'll be back with a new episode next week. Have a good one.