Joel Kim Booster on 'Scrubs', Making 'Fire Island', and Crowd Work

Summary

GOOD ONE: Joel Kim Booster on 'Scrubs', Making 'Fire Island', and Crowd Work
Date: May 7, 2026
Host: Jesse David Fox
Guest: Joel Kim Booster

---

Overview

This episode of Good One features comedian, writer, and actor Joel Kim Booster, in conversation with host Jesse David Fox. They discuss Joel’s role on the Scrubs revival, the label of “millennial cringe,” the evolution of his standup, the commodification of crowd work in the social media age, the legacy and limitations of Fire Island, and reflections on identity, creativity, and career. The episode is layered with humor, candid storytelling, and sharp industry critique.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Scrubs Revival and the “Millennial Cringe” Discourse

• Facing Criticism: Joel addresses critiques that the Scrubs revival is “millennial cringe,” interpreting it as a charge of being “earnest” rather than ironic or “cool.”
  • "[Millennial cringe] is just a fancier way of saying earnest, I think. And that's what the show does and has done since it premiered." – Joel [03:59]
• Tone & Authenticity: Both Joel and Jesse defend earnest comedy, noting Scrubs has always mixed hard jokes with sincere human drama.
  • "It is built into the show to be both sincere and have characters making fun of the more sincere characters." – Jesse [04:38]
• Not Trying to be ‘The Bear’: Joel admits the show isn’t attempting “prestige TV coolness,” and instead stays true to Scrubs’ blend of sincerity and comedy.
  • "Our show is not concerned with being cool... It is not trying to be a classy, cutting edge kind of show." – Joel [05:16]

2. Joel’s Antagonist Role and Evolution on Scrubs

• Playing Dr. Park: Joel’s character is a new primary antagonist, modeled after classic Scrubs villains but with a modern twist.
• He and the writers have worked to differentiate Dr. Park from prior roles (e.g., Nicholas on Loot), emphasizing a subtler, grounded, more “villainous” energy.
  • “I've never gotten to be like a full villain before, and B, it is a little bit more like, it's a calmer, more, I don't know, grounded sort of performance.” – Joel [15:46]
• Addressing Stereotypes: Joel bristles at critiques that label him “just another bitchy, snarky gay guy.”
  • "People who say I'm just playing another bitchy gay guy—canonically bi, so don't do bi erasure on me!" – Joel [16:56]

3. Career Reflections: Learning from Flops & Successes

• Sunnyside’s Infamous Cancellation: Joel recounts starring in the short-lived sitcom Sunnyside, rumored to have been pulled after SVU’s ratings dropped, possibly at Dick Wolf’s urging.
  • "It was the lowest rated premiere in NBC history at the time... And the rumor has it is that Dick Wolf called the network to complain about us." – Joel [11:24]
• Lessons Learned: Though initially demoralizing, Sunnyside led directly to future opportunities; multiple showrunners cast Joel in later projects, tailoring roles to his sensibility.
  • “Once you're in, you're kind of in.” – Joel [14:45]

4. Comedic Persona, Confidence & Stand-Up Growth

• Joel examines how his onstage talk of being "the hottest person in the room" was originally ironic, eventually becoming a self-fulfilling confidence mechanism:
  • “You can't go on stage every night and talk for five minutes about how ugly you are without actually sort of internalizing that... I started going on stage and talking about how hot I was.” – Joel [18:30]
• This comedic shift mirrors cultural changes in how Asian men are represented and perceived in pop culture, with an expanded sense of visibility and confidence.

5. Negotiating Tropes in TV Comedy

• On Loot, Joel discusses his initial hesitation with the gay assistant trope, but credits the writers for expanding the part and letting his comedic voice shape Nicholas.
  • “By midway through season two... it really became more so that Nicholas was her best friend.” – Joel [22:18]

6. Maya Rudolph’s Comedic Instincts

• Joel heaps praise on Maya Rudolph’s fearless ability to “take big swings”:
  • "Any great batter in the history of baseball, I can only assume, but it was always a masterclass in fearlessness..." – Joel [23:39]
• He recalls watching her shoot an unscripted Hot Ones parody scene as a genuine career highlight.

7. Crowd Work: Artistry vs. Social Media Trend

• Origins: Joel started interweaving crowd work when stretching into hour-long sets early in his career.
  • “Crowdwork became sort of integral into my process in writing new jokes... I could do a little bit more writing on stage using the crowd as my whiteboard.” – Joel [26:10]
• In Joel's Netflix Special: Crowd work functions as a framing device, particularly engaging with straight male audience members in a probing, subtly political way about identity and universality in comedy.
  • “The magic of crowd work and good crowd work... is making it seem like it’s so spontaneous... But it’s always a choice. You always have to be in control.” – Joel [28:37]
• On Social Media’s Influence: Joel critiques the dilution of true crowd work due to content farming—many comedians post clips where audience responses, not their jokes, get the biggest laughs.
  • “To me that's like posting a huge L on your timeline. Like you are not doing your job if the audience is getting a bigger laugh than you are.” – Joel [37:08]

8. Identity & Politics in Comedy

• Joel addresses persistent labeling as a “political comic” due to his identity:
  • “It's frustrating because... the stuff I'm doing now is so stupid and so like, not again, like much more observational... and it does not feel like the response has changed no matter what I do to change it.” – Joel [34:25]
• He reflects on the shift in his audience post-Fire Island, noting that crowd size and pre-existing fandom can distort real-time audience feedback.

9. Personal Milestones & Social Media

• Joel recently shared a wedding video, which he hesitated to post, expecting internet weirdness.
  • “Posting this because it was the happiest day of my fucking life and I wanted to share that. But the second somebody gets weird in the comments, it's coming down.” – Joel [41:26]
• On public vs. private boundaries, Joel relates awkwardness with fans’ parasocial engagement, especially around close-knit friendships with the likes of Bowen Yang.

10. Alt vs. Traditional Standup, and Comedy Scenes

• Joel reflects on his early days in Brooklyn’s alternative comedy scene, noting that just being a queer, Asian comic got one labeled “alt,” even while doing classic standup structure.
  • “If you were a woman, a person of color or queer, you were considered an alt comedian, even if you were doing structurally the same kind...” – Joel [46:27]
• "I stole from the best—John Mulaney and Louis C.K." – Joel [47:38]

11. Fire Island: Then and Now

• Industry Changes: Joel believes Fire Island wouldn’t be greenlit today due to increased industry risk-aversion around non-mainstream content.
  • "No, absolutely not. I know that for sure. Like, I got in under the wire, I think, in a lot of ways with that movie and the interest around it." – Joel [57:20]
• Scene Highlights: He’s most proud of the “Heads Up” game and a pivotal bathroom scene with Bowen, which addresses intersectional privilege and friendship.
  • “I think it was a necessary scene... otherwise I would have seemed insane and out of touch and blind to my own privilege.” – Joel [58:35]

12. On Crowd Work, Social Media, and Touring

• Joel has recently increased posting crowd work clips to help sell tickets in a “changed economy,” but remains critical of the dynamic.
  • "I had a real come to Jesus moment with this tour where I was like, I guess I need to start doing the fucking posts." – Joel [38:55]
• He contrasts his current audience—who sometimes laugh just from fandom—with earlier days where every laugh had to be earned.

13. Money, Fame, and Creative Control

• Financial Comfort: Joel reports being more financially comfortable than he ever imagined, having bought a house and paid off student loans—a rare milestone for millennials.
  • "That's the answer, I guess — I own a house, which not a lot of millennials are going to be able to do, 100%." – Joel [51:21]
• Standup as Meritocracy: It remains the part of his career least susceptible to accusations of “diversity hires.”
  • “The thing about standup is in that moment, the immediacy of standup in that moment on stage, I'm either making the audience laugh or I'm not..." – Joel [48:58]

14. Personal Life & Material

• Marriage: Joel admits that being happily married hasn’t provided the wealth of material he expected, as contentment isn’t the best comedy generator.
• Choosing to Have Kids: He now wants children, after initially being "anti-gay dad." The relationship changed his perspective.
  • "What happens when you fall in love... is that suddenly you're like, oh, this would be something I'd be doing with you." – Joel [54:13]

15. New Projects & Looking Forward

• Films: Joel is shopping a new movie to Fox Searchlight; the process is much slower than Fire Island but remains hopeful.
• Essay Collection: He's writing a book inspired by David Rakoff, with essays on family, mental health, and early standup.
• Taskmaster Aspirations & Superhero Hopes: Joel's goal is to appear on the UK show Taskmaster; for superhero media, he dreams of smaller-scale, street-level projects.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Millennial cringe is just a fancier way of saying earnest." – Joel [03:59]
• "You can't go on stage every night and talk for five minutes about how ugly you are without actually internalizing that.” – Joel [18:30]
• "Posting this because it was the happiest day of my fucking life… but the second somebody gets weird in the comments, it's coming down." – Joel [41:26]
• "They canceled us. But then also, in the same breath, ordered an additional episode." [12:39]
• "Crowd work is a way for me to open up in the early stages of figuring out a bit." [26:10]
• "I trusted my audience more when I had to earn every laugh from scratch." [35:10]
• "No, absolutely not. I know that for sure. [Fire Island] would not be made today." – Joel [57:20]
• On "Why did the chicken cross the road": "I literally did not get the double meaning in that joke... [that the chicken] is gonna get hit by a car and go to the other side." – Joel [77:51]

---

Timestamps: Important Segments

• 03:48
  Discussing “millennial cringe” and sitcom sincerity
• 10:46
  On being the antagonist on Scrubs, and classic Scrubs “fantasy” sequences
• 11:24
  On Sunnyside’s abrupt cancellation and lessons learned
• 15:08
  Playing to stereotypes and nuances between TV characters
• 22:00
  Navigating the gay assistant trope on Loot
• 23:39
  Maya Rudolph’s comedic process and inspirations
• 26:10
  Origin and evolution of crowd work in Joel's standup
• 34:25
  Navigating “political comedy” labels as a non-white, gay comedian
• 35:10
  How fame and audience composition reshape the live comedy experience
• 36:51
  TikTok/Instagram crowd work content farming: critique and adaptation
• 41:26
  On sharing personal milestones online and balancing public/private life
• 46:27
  The alt comedy label and stand-up scene transformations
• 57:20
  Why Fire Island wouldn’t get made today
• 58:35
  Proudest Fire Island scenes: comedy and intersectionality
• 67:05
  Superhero media aspirations and Taskmaster dream
• 69:19
  Book of essays in the works, inspired by David Rakoff
• 76:32
  Reflections on the latest Drag Race season

---

Final Lightning Round Highlights

• Favorite joke: A new, macabre understanding of “Why did the chicken cross the road?” [77:51]
• Bombing: Brutal week in Phoenix just before the 2016 election, featuring a notorious audience insult and the honest origins of a crowd work bit [83:00]
• Professional jealousy: Most jealous of Julio Torres, for being able to create so singularly without creative compromise [62:23]
• Greatest living comedian: Jaclyn Novak, for blending old-school and innovative standup sensibilities [81:11]

---

Tone and Takeaways

The episode balances warmth and vulnerability with biting industry insight and razor-sharp wit. Joel is frank about the career ups and downs, the realities of comedy in the digital age, and the personal stakes involved as his profile grows. Listeners will gain a rich sense of what it means to blend authenticity and adaptability in modern comedy—and how identity, audience tastes, and the machinery of Hollywood all interact with the creative process.

---

For more from Joel Kim Booster:

• Watch the new season of Scrubs
• Find his Netflix special
• Look out for his upcoming essay collection

For more episodes, visit Good One, hosted by Jesse David Fox.

Transcript

[Joel Kim Booster]

If you're tired of endless scrolling to figure out where to eat, same.

[Jesse David Fox]

I'm Stephanie Wu, editor in chief of Eater. We've just launched the newish and way better Eater app.

[Joel Kim Booster]

It has all the restaurants we love,

[Jesse David Fox]

gives you personalized picks wherever you are,

[Joel Kim Booster]

and serves up smarter search results just for you. You can find my list of the

[Jesse David Fox]

best places for martinis and fries in

[Joel Kim Booster]

New York City and save your favorite

[Jesse David Fox]

spots, share lists, follow editors and book

[Joel Kim Booster]

right in the app. Download the eater app@eaterapp.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's free for iOS users. Love don't cost a thing, but weddings sure do. I would say every single person I go to and I'm like, so how

[Joel Kim Booster]

much over budget are you right now?

[Jesse David Fox]

And I've, I've never heard someone say they were under budget.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Matrimony's rising price tag. That's this week on Explain It To Me. Find new episodes Sundays, wherever you get your podcasts. And I opened up. The first gift that I got that year was the Rent movie soundtrack. And I was like, oh, what an obvious choice for, you know, homeless gay teen. And then I proceeded to open up three more gifts that were all the Rent Movie soundtrack.

[Jesse David Fox]

This is good one. I am Jesse David Fox, senior writer of Vulture and author of Comedy Book. My guest this week is Joel Kim Booster. Joel on the new season of Scrubs. So we defend the show against vicious accusations of being millennial cringe. And then we defend millennials against vicious accusations of being cringe. We also discuss what it's like being a stand up who is great at crowd work, seeing crowd work become commodified and watered down by social media and whether Joel's film Fire island could be made today. He says it could not and that would be a shame. Here's the thing. I love Joel and was just happy

[Joel Kim Booster]

to get to talk to him again.

[Jesse David Fox]

So here is Joel Kimboster. I'm here with Joel Kim Booster. Thank you for joining me.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Thanks for having me. Of course.

[Jesse David Fox]

So the first question we ask, what is the funniest, strangest or most fascinating thing that happened to you this week?

[Joel Kim Booster]

This is definitely in the funny strange category. I mean, listen, I get a lot of wild DMs and I don't tend to check them anymore because of that. But I did get somebody. I don't know how they ended up in the non filtered because I don't remember ever interacting with this person before. But I looked at my DMs from them and it was just like three in a row asking me to donate to their brother's gofundme in the hospital for something, and then about three or four dick pics and solicitations, and then two more GoFundMe from the brother, and then another couple dick pics and solicitations. And it was just the most, like, tonally whiplash in the DMs I've gotten in a long time. And so. But it is, like, it's interesting how people really contain multitudes. You know, like, they can be really concerned about their brother, but also deeply horny at the same time and just, like, need connection.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's just sort of very odd way.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Well, the last message was like, am I ever going to catch you in a horny mood? And I was like, well, shouldn't you be Morgan's rainbow if you're catching me in a charitable mood? It's like, one or the other. Yeah, truly.

[Jesse David Fox]

But not both at the same time, which is seemingly what he was hoping for. So you're on the Scrubs revival. I'm loving this script.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Thank you.

[Jesse David Fox]

And I want to start by addressing a thing that people are throwing around around it. I guess this is maybe considered a critique, but. Which is the term millennial cringe. And I have feelings about that word being associated with this program. But I'm curious. Before we even get it, first let's talk about that idea, and then we'll get into it. Vis a vis Scrub. Yeah.

[Joel Kim Booster]

It's interesting because I do feel like there is a focus right now on authenticity. Like, everybody wants everybody to be authentic, but I don't think anybody wants them to be authentically earnest. Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Joel Kim Booster]

And that is, I think, like, millennial cringe is just a fancier way of saying earnest, I think. And that's what the show does and has done since it premiered. I think it was really on the forefront of, like, hard jokes mixed in with a lot of earnest, you know, human relationship sort of focused drama. And. Yeah. And I. So I don't necessarily. It's hard to take it as offense to it because, you know, cringe in general, I think, thrown around a lot. And I certainly understand it. I recognize it. But it is also, I think, so overused at this point that it's, like, what doesn't make you cringe. It is.

[Jesse David Fox]

It is odd in this context because, like, it is. The original script is definitively a Gen X product in terms of who made it. And, like, yeah, it was on when we were kids, but it wasn't like, the main show we all watched. It's like Friends was Definitely more popular on Court. And also it's like, yes, it's sincere, but it was like people were aware that, like, it is built into the show to be both sincere and have characters making fun of the more sincere characters. I think they just. When I was reading some of the people who were saying this, they just like, it was such an odd thing to be, like, mad at a show for being. Having hope in it whatsoever.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah. And I guess, like, there is, like, I guess there's not. There's no prestige to our show too. I think that's the other part of it. I think it makes it a really easy target because it is on ABC proper. It is a revival, you know, reboot, whatever you want to call it. And so I think those two things are sort of marks against it coming out the gate. And then, of course, it's not, you know, I'll say it, and maybe Zach might take issue with me saying this, but I don't think it's especially the show is not concerned with being cool, you know, And I think that is the thing that I think throws a lot of people about it is that, like, it's not a show, it's not the bear. It is not trying to, you know, be like a classy, like, cutting edge kind of show. And I think it's just trying to stay true to the roots of the show, which I think when it was airing maybe might have been a little bit more ahead of its time in a lot of ways, I think, you know, it's a joke. It's a very joke dense show. But at the same time, it has these moments of sincerity. And so, yeah, I think that those three things really are. Make it difficult, I think, for a certain type of person to take it as seriously as they might otherwise.

[Jesse David Fox]

Part of it, I guess the context that we have, that's maybe slightly different than people who are watching it. So if you're watching now, context, you're like, you're. You're lumping in what. Whatever feelings people might have with Ted Lasso or Zach Graff that the Internet just sort of like, has the. It's a meme opinion, the opinion people have of it. But I think, like, what is fascinating to watch and I think we remember is that it was coming. It was not a product of the Obama era. It ended in 2009, right when it was a product of. It was pushing back against sort of like the. A very dominant cynical tone that like, took over, like, mainstream sitcoms at the time, like on the cbs, like two and A Half Men style sitcoms. And in that ways, it was a confrontation by being willing to be sincere. And, like, the thing that I think we both know it is hard to pull off being sincere. Like, especially now, we're like, oh, it's a revival. Yeah, right. Let's see them do. And then you. It's like a magic trick. Like, oh, they have. They figured out a sort of tone of this that allow the stakes to be real, but also, like, feed into the fact that, like, you can make. You can do both at the same time.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's interesting. I think that you. The stakes of it is what makes the tone shifting work because. And I read an interview with Bill Lawrence where the execs at. I can't remember NBC, who originally aired were concerned about, like, how would people go from laughing to, like, crying about a patient that might be dying? And I think, like, the fact that it is a show set in a hospital lends itself to believably shifting in and out of that tone. And then you compare it to shows like St. Denis, which I love, by the way. And this is not a mark against them, but I don't think that they try to go in that direction as much on that show. Like, they're not. They don't have patients who die of rabies and then end up killing a bunch of other people because their organs were donated to them. You know, like, it's not trying to do that. And I think, like, it is something of a Bill Lawrence, you know, ism to be able to balance both of those tones really well.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. I think with the nature of, like, fracturing, we're like, okay, there's the pit or the St. Denis, and there are

[Joel Kim Booster]

two different shows, and we go for each.

[Jesse David Fox]

And it's like, there was a time when you were like, okay, we have one medical. Like, we'll broadcast it, and we're gonna try to give people everything.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Were you a fan growing up?

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah, definitely. I watched. I've seen probably every episode. I think, like, I have not sat down and, like, re. Binged. I've shown my husband a couple episodes. Yeah, it was just on everywhere. And so I've definitely. It. Definitely. And I will say that, like, that. That tonal mix, I think, like, really shaped a lot of what I try to do as a writer. And again, like, probably makes me less cool because of it, but, like, yeah, it is definitely, like, the earnestness is something that I internalized.

[Jesse David Fox]

I think I was really excited. I knew you were on it, and I was like, okay, I didn't know what part you're playing. And then pretty quickly it was clear what your dynamic is. And I was like, this is very exc. Can you describe your dynamic and when you realize that's what the character is?

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah, I mean, they told me pretty early on that I was an antagonist in the show. I think they told me in the audition. And it was pretty clear from they had dummy sides scenes for me that they weren't actual scenes. But it was just like a lot of improving with Zack and like finding the character. But he's an antagonist and he is like. And narratively functions in the similar way that Dr. Kelso and Dr. Cox and the Janitor functioned on the original show. Except on our show, I am currently the only antagonists really on the show. So there's a lot of responsibility in that. And I think that, you know, it's. I've seen, you know, some critique of the character that he is sort of unlike those other three characters, just solely antagonizing. And we haven't seen too much development. I mean, I think that as the season has progressed, you've seen little bits and pieces of why maybe this guy is the way he is, but he definitely is something of a villain. Yeah. As close to a villain as the show.

[Jesse David Fox]

Especially like, if you. It's inverting the dynamic of the. Where it's like JD Was the underling of these people who were the boss. But now hypothetically, JD Is your boss, but you are still having this tactical relationship. But like, can you. You get to be in like a fantasy setting?

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah, yeah, two. I get to be in two fantasies. Which is. What was that like to be like,

[Jesse David Fox]

oh, I'm into the Scrubs cutaway.

[Joel Kim Booster]

I was very excited to be in a Scrubs cut away. And I was even like, I'm upset about it in the scene, but like I got to be dressed up as Odd Job and I'm a huge seam fan. So that was like actually a really cool, stupid thing that I got to do while filming this show.

[Jesse David Fox]

I want to talk about how you got the part, but I feel like we should start by talking about the short lived NBC sitcom.

[Joel Kim Booster]

This is my. Yeah, my triumphant return to network tv. I know, it's cool.

[Jesse David Fox]

It is. Of all versions of a short lived pulled from the air sitcom scenario. You. You.

[Joel Kim Booster]

I did a hatchet. I mean, it was the lowest rated premiere in NBC history at the time. I don't know if anyone's beat us. And it was pulled from the air after Three episodes, which I don't think that they had done in almost, like, eight years, I think, when I checked at the time. So, like, they were not. It wasn't like the old days, preach streaming, where they were pulling shows off the air left and right that weren't performing well. And, yeah, I think I can say this confidently now. The conspiracy theory around why we were pulled is this. Is that we were the lead into SVU, and SVU's numbers did take a slight hit. They were still doing SVU numbers, but I think we definitely affected some. It was probably down from the season before, and the rumor has it is that Dick Wolf called the network to complain about us, and then about a week later, we were pulled off the air, which, honestly, it makes a lot of sense because that he is Dick Wolf. I'm scared to even be saying this right now. He is the most powerful man in network tv. So. But that is. That is. That is. None of this is. Is confirmed by any. But that is. That seems like it makes sense, because

[Jesse David Fox]

otherwise they would just bear. They just allow to run out, be like, oh, no, it's actually hurting our.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Well, no. And they did the strangest thing, too, where they let. They. They canceled us. But then also, in the same breath, they ordered another. An additional episode so that there was an. There's 11 episodes in that first season. Because the day they cancel us, they were like, but you're still going to air on Hulu, and we're also ordering an 11th episode from you. So it was this weird thing of, like, we didn't. It was definitely a mixed signal that we were getting from the network.

[Jesse David Fox]

It feels like one of those things that, like, it was some sort of deal. Variety of deal points of like, okay, we'll give you another episode. And you're just like, all right, I guess we're gonna act while the ship's going down. How did you feel about that experience at the time?

[Joel Kim Booster]

I mean, listen, I thought it was the biggest flop failure of my entire career. And, you know, at the time, maybe that was true. But I think it was a really important lesson for me in knowing not to think, you know, the arc of a story until you have some distance from it. Because what ended up happening is Matt Hubbard wrote on that show, who I then went on to work with on Lute, and he, you know, basically loosely developed the character, I think, with me in mind. And it was definitely a situation where they were like, you just really have to kill this audition and make it easy for us to make this decision. And then Aseem Batra, who's showrunning Scrubs now, also wrote on that show and also sort of, you know, had me in mind when writing Dr. Park. So it ended up being kind of the best thing that ever happened to me. Still, I mean, it was at the time, still changed my life in a million different ways financially. And because I still. We got. We may have gotten pulled, but I still got paid for all 11 episodes. And so it radically changed my. My life. But course of my life, I able to pay off my student loans because of that show, which I never thought in a million years I'd be able to do so. And it. And it opened doors because the catch 22 of working in this industry is that you need to be famous to get the part in a lot of times, but you need to get the part to be famous. So it is this, like, once you're in, you're kind of in. And it was able. It made me seem more valuable, quote, unquote, I think, to future shows like Loot and Scrubs.

[Jesse David Fox]

Once you're on the list of people who have been on shows, you're like, we need to. Who's on the list? And then it's like, oh, Joel's on this list.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Finally, I'm on.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's like, it's just like, how do you get on the first. No. 1. That is the great mystery of Hollywood. So these parts sort of started kind of written for you. Then obviously, as you get cast there explicitly, what is it like to read a script and it's someone writing you be like, this is. This is how they see me.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah, I mean, it is. It's a. It's a strange experience to see yourself reflected in that way. And obviously there's always some distance from it because I know that they. They're writing to the characters that they know I can. The kind of characters they know I can play. But I will say it's interesting. Like, I think, like, I've seen criticism leveled at me and this character specifically for being just another, quote, unquote, bitchy snarky gay guy. And I do think that, you know, I was talking to Bone about this and he was like, just give up on ever having people boney and correct.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yes.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah, Sorry. But like, he was like, ever expect people to ever be able to sense the nuance and differences in what you're doing? Because they never will give you that. You know, I don't. You know, that's all I'll say on that. But, like, and. And because I Do think there's a. There is a major difference in how I approach Dr. Park than how I approach Nicholas on lute. And. But it is, it is bizarre. And I, I will say that, like, I think Dr. Park initially starts out in those dummy scenes. For the audition, it was much closer to what I was doing on loop. But as we worked together, we worked together to make sure that there was some differentiation there and something that I'm really aware of. And part of the reason I love playing Dr. Park is like A, I've never gotten to be like a full villain before, and B, it is a little bit more like, it's a calmer, more, I don't know, grounded sort of performance. He's not being as bombastic as anything I've done before. I will say, like, people who say I'm just playing another bitchy gay guy canonically bi, so don't erase, don't do bi erasure on me.

[Jesse David Fox]

Also, like, he is mean.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

You just are gay. So they're like, that's bitchy. No, sometimes people are mean.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah. I don't find him to be bitchy.

[Jesse David Fox]

That's the thing.

[Joel Kim Booster]

I think he's acerbic and he's. He's definitely short, but I don't find him to be bitchy. Yeah, yeah, I think that is. Yeah, I think it's more.

[Jesse David Fox]

They're just projecting. It's like, oh, he's just, he's. It's like, no, for the most part, he's like, you're. I remember being like, I didn't know what part are playing. And I was like, you're. You've aged into being a doctor. You can't be an intern necessarily. And so you're substantial.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And not like quipping. You're busy, you're business. And if anything, you're like, you. You are jd, you think of as insubstantial and more quippy. And you're like, we're doctors here.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah. I think if, if anything, the only, the only through line, I think through Sunnyside to now Dr. Park is like, you know, at the time, and I think it's really hard for people to divorce this idea from me because it was such a huge part of what I was doing in this section of my standup career was all the characters are sort of self aware of their own hotness. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, you know, which felt a little bit more cutting edge when I was doing Sunnyside than it does now, obviously. And I think it's like, it's the last Vestiges of piece period of my standup career that I, I've. I've sort of left behind. Like, I don't talk about it on stage anymore because it's just, it's not as interesting. And I think it's also harder for the audience to get on board for it because it's just more true now than it was when I was doing, starting out those bits.

[Jesse David Fox]

You was? Oh, you're saying when you.

[Joel Kim Booster]

When I started out. I don't think, I think I've said this before. I. I think part of the reason the audience would laugh and go along with me when I'd walk on stage and be like, I'm the hottest person in this room is that I wasn't. Yeah. And like, people would sort of laugh and go like, aha. Isn't it funny that this guy, this guy thinks that he's hot? Yeah. And then slowly as it sort of reverse engineered a sense of self confidence in me as I would just like. Because I didn't believe it when I was first starting to do those jokes. It was just one of those things where I started my standup career going on stage saying, like, aren't I unfuckable? Aren't I so undesirable I can't get a date, et cetera, et cetera. And I found that that was really affecting, like, my psyche in real life too. Like, you can't go on stage every night and talk for five minutes about how ugly you are without actually sort of internalizing that a little bit. And so as a reaction to that, I started going on stage and talking about how hot I was. And I think there was a sense of like, oh, it's funny that this guy thinks he is. And then when I started to embody that a little bit more because, you know, once it's easier, it's. Again, it's that catch 22 of like, you need confidence to take care of yourself in the way that you do, but you need to take care of yourself in order to get that confidence. And it was sort of like I, I reverse engineered it in such a way that it was able to, you know, become the person I am now. And. Yeah, it's just not as interesting. Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Then, then, now the audience is like, yeah, it's not like a joke that you're hot.

[Joel Kim Booster]

You're just.

[Jesse David Fox]

No.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah. And you know, there's, there's also obviously like the. Being an Asian man is a, is a part of that. And I think that. But, you know, we now have simu Liu and Daniel Dae Kim and like, all of these, like, you know, Henry Goulding and all of these Asian male sex symbols now. Kumail, you know, and, like, it's not. It's not as I'm in a sea of people now who are doing that rep work.

[Jesse David Fox]

There's not like a tension that you are addressing because the audience is like, first, like, oh, what's this person gonna do? What's this person? This is different than when we assume a comedian is right. Every comedian who's not, like, the. I don't know, like, the, like, looks like Dane Cook in my head is like. They're like, okay, so this is weird that it's not Dane Cook on stage. And then you. You're like, it's hot. It's like, oh, that's like subverting whatever we're expecting. But now you're like, you've been around. Comedy has shifted. You are part of the comedy archetypes broadly. And that they're like, well, it's not really a joke or interesting that you're

[Joel Kim Booster]

telling us you're hiding.

[Jesse David Fox]

We're just sort of like, yes, we are on the same page. Beyond the fantasy sequence, like, what were you most excited to do? In a way that you're like, oh, I'm like, it is a little bit like, not cosplay, but, like, I'm in this world.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah. I mean, honestly, just playing a doctor in general, this is the first time I've done, like, something where I'm not playing Face with an assistant, you know, like. And so, you know, it was exciting because I had never really gotten a chance to do, like, some of the medical jargon or, like, some of the. There's a real, like, sense of gravitas you do feel when you put on that white lab coat. And it was also the most comfortable set of costumes I've ever had in my entire life. So I would gladly go back and spend 14 hours a day in scrubs if I needed to.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, no one talks about that. Not only is the trope of gay assistant, but they forced these gay assistants to dress so crazy.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Three piece suits. Three piece suits on lute. I would have to. And the fittings for those. I mean, I loved my costumes in lute. I looked great in it. Our costume department really nailed it there. But it's definitely nice to come on to set and go in my trailer and throw on more comfortable clothes than I wore to set for the day.

[Jesse David Fox]

How did you feel about, like, obviously, it was a. I'm sure you're happy to be on Lute, but I'm sure when you were told about the part, they're like, is the assistant to Maya's character. And you're, I'm sure, aware of the trope. It's a thing that you've done before.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

How do you think about it? How do you think about now that you've done seasons of the show?

[Joel Kim Booster]

Um, you know what? It's interesting because, like, pretty quickly, I think we Nicholas isn't doing a ton of assistant y stuff by season two. By, like, midway through season two. And I think, like, as it transitioned and as, like, Maya and I's chemistry grew, and it really became more so that Nicholas was her best friend, you know, in a lot of ways. And so I transitioned very quickly into a different kind of role on the show. So it never felt constrictive to me. It never felt like Pat in a lot of ways, because they also let me inject a lot of myself into that character or a lot of my comedic sensibilities into that character. So it was. I was always having fun, and I never felt, like, painted into a corner where, like, it felt limiting. Like, listen, a lot of gay guys are assistants. And, you know, it didn't necessarily feel like it was a hindrance. Certainly not through season three.

[Jesse David Fox]

Has it been announced if the show's coming back?

[Joel Kim Booster]

It has not been announced yet, no.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you have a sense one way or the other?

[Joel Kim Booster]

I don't know. It's always hard to tell with streamers which way they're going to go.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you have a very specific compliment of watching Maya perform? Like, what is it like up close?

[Joel Kim Booster]

It's fearless. Honestly, it is so instinctual for her. It's very much like she dives headfirst into every comedic set piece on that show and gives it her all on take one. And I think watching her take big swings is a real inspiration because, listen, not all of them connect. Any great batter in the history of baseball, I can only assume, but it was always a masterclass in fearlessness and approaching these bigger. I mean, the first and only time I've ever stayed on set after being wrapped was to watch her film the Hot Ones scene in season one. And just watching her process, like, so much of that was unscripted, and so much of it was, like, in between the lines of what? You know, like, the work she was doing in between the lines was so masterful. And. Yeah, no, it was. It's honestly, like, the highlight of my three years on that show was getting to work. So Closely with Maya.

[Jesse David Fox]

Vanessa Bayer plays the other kind of new major cast member. You knew her a little. Did you know, in Chicago?

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah, yeah, we knew each other a little bit in Chicago. I had moved to New York almost, I think, before she. Or just as she was getting cast on Saturday Night Live. And then I opened for her a couple times when she was on Saturday Night Live, at colleges and stuff like that. So we got close, mainly closer, because of that. When I did that a few times.

[Jesse David Fox]

I'm trying to think you have some scenes together, but is it just sort of like we're like.

[Joel Kim Booster]

We actually. You know, it's funny, we don't have a lot of scenes together, and it's in. I can only assume if we get a second season, they'll address this, but her character is sort of the HR department of the Skold in a lot of ways. And because we don't share a lot of scenes together, it's never addressed the fact that so much of the behavior that she is policing from Dr. Cox and the Todd and all these characters I am doing off in my scenes. And if she were around, I think it would have to be a joke.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's like, we'll learn that you're actually a ghost. So you're on tour right now. Yeah. And I want to talk to you specifically about crowd work.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And a more extended conversation about this thing that we are, this world of crowd work that we immersed ourselves in. But before we get to sort of the current state of whatever this thing is, you've been doing crowd work prominently for, like, as long as I've known you, really, as a standup. Do you remember when it started becoming a major part of your act?

[Joel Kim Booster]

Definitely. You know what? It's a tale as old as time. I think it started when I started headlining for the first time. And I can remember the first college I ever did was. It was a college. I can't remember where. It was a small school. It was the first time I had ever done an hour, and I had very little conception for what anything beyond 15 minutes felt like at that time. And so I thought I had it. And crowd work became sort of integral into my process in writing new jokes. And so, um, you know, I was doing a lot of crowd work with a purpose in mind back then. Like, you know, that first set of an hour, I think I was doing it to pad. And then I quickly figured out, I think in that first time doing an hour and doing crowd work, I. I landed on two bits that that would eventually become, you know, Part of, I think, ended up in my half hour for Comedy Central. Um, and so when I figured that out, when I figured out that I, you know, didn't have to sit at a coffee shop and write down the premise and then the punchline and then try it out on an open mic that I could do a little bit more writing on stage with, using the crowd as sort of my, you know, whiteboard to. To figure out things. And then, you know, I'm very. I record every set and listen to it back almost immediately just to catch those little nuances. And when you're doing crowd work, it's fun. Cause you, You, You. You're able to hear the laughter in a more isolated way, and you figure out, like, the nuances of like, oh, this word hits more than this word. And, and it's. It's freeing to do it, to write on stage that way because I, I found when I was trying to write down, like, the full setup and the full punchline, word for word in a notebook, I was really. I would get stuck in that, and I wasn't playing. I wasn't exploring as much. And so crowdwork is a way for me to open up in the early stages of figuring out a bit. And then it started to develop more as, like, almost close up magic. Like, I like what I do in my Netflix special. I remember in my Netflix special, Netflix was really nervous about me having this framing device of crowd work in the special because they were like, you know, this can go a lot of different ways. You only get two shots at this by that point. The magic of crowd work and good crowd work, especially at that point in your set, is making it seem like. Like it's so spontaneous and anything could happen. When in fact, by that point, I had been asking those questions to so many audiences, I knew all three responses that I would get 90% of the time, like, nobody says anything different. And I'm quick enough that if I can do little nuances to what they're responding to. But in my head, I have a branching. Choose your own adventure of like, okay, I know if they say something in this area, this is the punchline for that. This is a punchline for this, and et cetera. And so, like. And it worked really well in the special because I did have. The trick is to make it seem like the audience is in control in those moments. But it's always choice. You always have to be in control.

[Jesse David Fox]

So for those who haven't seen it, essentially, you pick a straight guy in the audience and they become the Sort of surrogate for the straight guys of the world. How did you conceive of, like formally what you wanted it to look like, feel like, and even the concept of what you were hoping to explore with,

[Joel Kim Booster]

you know, what it came about? Because I can't remember what special Chappelle's had just come out. It was pre trans material, but post, I think him living on whatever compound he lives on. And it was the first special maybe in a while. And he had done some jokes, he had some joke about Asian people in it. And I remember I was doing a completely unrelated New York Times interview. It was not about that at all. And at the end of the interview, they threw in, oh, what do you think of Chappelle's joke on this? And I said something about the fact that I, you know, and I, of course, I don't think they included this in the, in the quote where I was like, you know, I idolize Chappelle. I think he's one of the all time greats. He's in the pantheon. But I think this thing happens with comedians as they become sue famous to know or connect to like everyday experience that, you know, they, they have less to talk about. And so you have to turn to stuff like this. And that of course, was the pull quote that everybody read. And I was getting so many death threats and so many otherwise threats from Chappelle fans at that time. And I was going to Toronto to do JFL Toronto. And I remember I was sitting in my hotel room like I had an hour set that I was doing at that point that I was touring with. But I was reading all of these comments and all of these DMs from people who were like, we're coming to your Toronto show. We're gonna fuck you up. We're gonna like ruin the show. We're gonna do this. And then also comments critiquing my work up to that point of. And it's critiques that I'm used to and that I still get to this day of like, oh, he only talks about being gay, he only talks about being Asian, he only talks about his identity like, blah, blah, blah, like, why can't he just tell a regular joke? And I remember that night I almost didn't show up to my show. I was so anxious about it. And I got there and I threw out everything. I threw out the entire set list. And I sat there and I did my, some of the bits that I had been touring with. But I really, that was the first night where I was like, hey, you Know, like, listen to these jokes and I want you to tell me if you can. If you can laugh at this as a straight white man or if this is too alienating for you. And that was like very, very much the genesis of that entire structure is me like in real time, like being responding to this criticism that had been leveled against me since I did my first Conan clip, you know, and Conan spot. And so it was, it was at that point I didn't think it was gonna become the sort of entire framework of my set, but it was just a genuine like, fact finding mission of like, do these bits work in isolation of my identity or not? And then I quickly. It became the most interesting part of the set.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. Do you, do you feel like. Well, I guess when you're filming special, did you film two different straight guys?

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah, we did two different shows back to back and they were both great, but Ben was just a star so we had to use Ben.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you feel like you communicated what you hoped? Did you get feedback from straight guys who had never been othered before?

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah, I mean there was definitely comments of people who were like after that special came out of people commenting like, I was straight white guy and I love your chef, blah, blah, blah. But I don't think it's the thing that people take away from the set because obviously it's been chopped up into clips that are released. And I don't control what clips are chopped up and released. And you know, I don't know that all of them were super representative of the set as a whole. And some of them I think did play into the general notion of who I was as a standup. Not necessarily the most interesting or innovative parts of that set. And so, yeah, I don't think people necessarily got learned anything from it.

[Jesse David Fox]

Well, I think, I imagine, who knows, I mean, the. While you had the intentions of the full piece, I'm sure somewhere in Netflix's social media they're like, yeah, but we sort of need the jokes to hit those specific identity groups. And like that's how that one of the way its algorithms sort people. It's totally cool. So like, I know he's trying to say that he's not just a gay Asian comedian, but like we actually need this to specifically hit gay people and Asian people. Yeah, it reminded me as we were watching it and there's this idea called charged comedy that an academic named Beck Krafting came up with. I think it's like, like 2014, 2015. And it's basically the idea that it's Comedy that is meant to produce social change. But one of the points they make in the book is that people have an aversion to political comedy. Like this is pre Trump, but it's a general and I think in many ways are back to that. People have an aversion to political comedy. However, for the most part they see anyone who's not a white guy as doing political comedy. Regardless if like you, I remember hearing you in interviews, it was like, do you feel like you do political work? And then you have to say like, well, all things I do is political because I'm. But I think the thing you're trying to say behind is like, I actually don't want that to be the case either. How do you think about it? Where do you. Because you don't. You haven't done it.

[Joel Kim Booster]

No, I don't.

[Jesse David Fox]

I don't think you start doing now.

[Joel Kim Booster]

I don't think I ever have talked about. I think maybe after Trump was elected I, I had a few bits that were very topical about like, like the aftermath of that. But I don't have anything that's overtly political necessarily in my set. I think just the. So it is, it's a deeply frustrating thing, especially now because like the stuff I'm doing now is so stupid and so like, not again, like much more observational than I think anything else I've done in the past. And it's, it's frustrating because I. You'd like to think that, you know, I've been doing this for over 15 years now and it does not feel like the response has changed no matter what I do to change it or if I, you know, I think I worked really hard leading up to the set that eventually became my special to adjust my material to like prove everybody wrong or whatever. And then I quickly learned, you know, through doing that set that that was, it was, it was fighting a losing battle, like to try and triangulate or try and adjust what you're doing to prove someone wrong or adjust the narrat of who you are as a comedian is just never gonna work. And so I think it's a double edged sword for sure. Because listen, I have a very dedicated fan base of Asian and gay and gay Asian people who come to the shows now. And it's different, it's a totally different experience than when I first started headlining clubs because when I first started headlining clubs, no one knew who I was. Like maybe 10% of the audience came because they liked me on Twitter, but everybody else, I had to go out on stage Every night and really get them on my side and prove that I was funny to these people because there was no built in support. Sometimes I go on stage now post movie and post special and everything like that. And when the crowd's really there to see me, they laugh a little bit or they laugh before the punchline or something and I'm just like, that was not funny. You're goosing it a little bit. And so I actually trust. I like, I trust my audiences a little bit less than I did now that they love me than I did when I had to go out there and really like from the ground, like from the jump, ground zero, teach them who I was and what I was about.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you do now that we're in this era of I don't like you call what is happening on social media is crowd work, but it's more like crowd content farming. Do you do it less? Does it make you think about it differently? Do you feel like the audiences react differently now that they totally.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Um, yeah, I think, like, because I think this is my thing about the clips and I've, you know, I realize it is just the reality of being a touring comedian at this point is that you have to do it. You have to play into that ecosystem. I'm a little bit grandfathered out of that because, you know, in my day we were very protective of what we were putting online. Like we were not burning material. And that's why crowd work has become the thing. Because the cadence of how many times you have to post in a week is, is far greater than the amount of material you can learn. So everybody's turning to crowd work network. But I see so much of it where the biggest laughs are coming from the audience response, not from what the. How the comedian is responding to their answers. And to me, that's like posting a huge L on your timeline. Like you are not doing your job if the audience is getting a bigger laugh than you are. And it's hard, it's hard to, it's hard to find clips where that's not the case. Like, I think I have two crowd work clips right now posted on my timeline and it was hard to find like two really good ones where I felt like I was like the driver of the comedy primarily in the clip. But I think because you're seeing so many audiences really crush it in these clips, there is now this weird added pressure. I think some people in the audience, especially the people who choose to sit in the front row, feel to now like be interesting or be funny because

[Jesse David Fox]

they could go, they could go on the post, be like, that was me. Yeah, it is. They're. They, they're like, they don't. They're. This is their sort of soft launch into becoming a comedian, which was like, the reason people didn't like doing crowd work in the first place is you don't want to empower the audience. It's interesting to say that it's. You can do crowd work, you're quite good at it. Obviously, you have a standard and that's one reason why you don't do it more. But I think there are some comedians, there's lots of, let me put it, there's lots of comedians who post a lot. You do not post as much as I think you could. This is not saying you should, but

[Joel Kim Booster]

I'm just saying you could.

[Jesse David Fox]

And to a point where considering that that is what is happening, it is a choice that one is making. Why did, why have you chosen to post as much as you post?

[Joel Kim Booster]

Oh, I. Right now. Because I'm on tour. Yeah. And like, listen, like, it's a, it's, it's very interesting. I think, like, you know, the economy is what it is. People listen. I would be hard pressed to find a reason to spend some of the ticket money that some of these shows are priced at to see me too. And it is this thing of, like, if they don't have this connection to you now of seeing your clips on social media or seeing it a bit that's tested on social media first. It's harder to move tickets. It just is. And like, I think, you know, I had a real come to Jesus moment with this tour where I was like, I guess I need to start doing the fucking posts. And so, you know, I don't think it's the primary driver of ticket sales for me. I don't think that's the case. But. But I definitely think it's like, helped. And so I still don't, I don't see it as a necessity for me, but I definitely think that it is, like, the way things are moving. If I want to have a touring career in a couple of years, like, I need to build up a base of people that are following me on Instagram not because they saw my movie, but because they liked. They saw a clip online of me.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, it is. You're in this sort of interesting position of like, you kind of don't. You're like, part of you is like, I don't need it. Right. And then part of you is like, it seems like it works.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And How. And then the best defense of losing audiences or whatever is like continuingly to sort of put things out there. There's no, there's no real win to it. It's hard to know like where it goes to, but I can imagine you're sort of like, this person's playing theaters.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, listen, it's just, it's a different world where like, you know, back in the day, like I started headlining in 2016 because of my Conan clip, you know, one five minute clip in late night. And I was five years or six years into doing standup at that point and I was suddenly headlining these clubs based on that one credit. And like, I don't think you could have zero credits at this point and sell out stadiums. You know, like, it's just social media has changed the name of the game for a lot of people and it's created this entire new ecosystem of comedians that don' need to have a big time credit to fill a room. So, you know, it's kind of been an equalizer in a lot of ways. And so I see that as a positive, but I also think it's feeding into some not great instincts of some people. So, you know, it's a double edged sword for sure.

[Jesse David Fox]

You currently have your wedding video up also. Congratulations.

[Joel Kim Booster]

I was very, very uncertain about posting that, but yeah, so, yeah, so I

[Jesse David Fox]

want to read the caption because it conveys that. Posting this because it was the happiest day of my fucking life and I wanted to share that. But the second somebody gets weird in the comments, it's coming down.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah, unpack.

[Jesse David Fox]

Because you, I saw it go.

[Joel Kim Booster]

No one's gotten weird.

[Jesse David Fox]

This has been like, partly because you're like, please don't. Like, if you want the juice of whatever parasocial feeling you have, you need to be normal. Yeah, but like that I saw that goes like, this is at least a day of thinking about if they want.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Oh, for sure.

[Jesse David Fox]

So walk me through that process of deciding.

[Joel Kim Booster]

I mean, I've watched it like 27,000 times because I thought it was. We were really nervous, by the way, when we hired this videographer that, you know, no matter how hard we tried or what our wedding looked like, it was gonna feel like a love is blind scene or something. Like really cheesy, really bad. And it might be cheesy. I'm sure some people watched it and thought it was. But I just wanted people to see, I don't know, just share that day. Like, I was really proud of that day, of what we accomplished. With our wedding and how we felt. It was the best day of my life. And, you know, I thought the video really captured a lot of the reasons why it was so special. And I did want people to share in that because I know that, like, you know, people were interested in, like, you know, the response to the photos and the New York Times article that we posted. Like, it was, like. It was a really, really, like, fun way to let people in on that day. But I also know that I don't post photos of me and my husband a lot because I get a lot of weird comments and DMs about it every time I do, and I want to protect him a little bit from that. So it was a decision I fully expected to have to pull it down in 12 hours.

[Jesse David Fox]

I was very happy to see it, but I know you well enough that I was like, this is nice to see, but I can imagine, like, I remember before, like, truly, any of you were, like, a person anyone really would know. Like, so it's like pre. Like, Bowen getting on snl really.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Right.

[Jesse David Fox]

Like, already I felt people having a parasocial relationship to, like, their idea of, like, what all these friends were doing.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Right.

[Jesse David Fox]

And it's now obviously gotten to this sort of even bigger thing as, like, you all have now ascended. How have you wrestled with that aspect of, like, okay, am I letting people in? Like, oh, man, and Bowen are in this, and they're gonna. They. They'll think that they were whatever. I mean, like, it's just sort of an odd.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah. Like, the lost culturistas cinematic universe of characters that we've. We've all assembled, like, the, you know, what was then. Yeah, it's. It's. It's tough because, you know, like, it was funny. I saw a comment somewhere where. Where people were, like, mad that when I, I. They didn't.

[Jesse David Fox]

They.

[Joel Kim Booster]

We didn't record an episode of Las Culturistas during my bachelor party weekend. And I get the desire for that. And it's funny, but it is also, like, that weekend was so. I was so unconcerned with social media or, like, sharing that week, that entire weekend with the people that follow me on social media, because it was just about me and, like, feeling loved and, like, celebrating with my friends. And, like, it became, like, it never even occurred to me that people would want to know what was going on on that weekend. And so to see stuff like that, it is a little, like, jarring to think that, like, oh, like, we can't. Like, it's very weird now, like, to be in a position where I know, like, I can think of stuff that I would honestly want you to cut maybe from this podcast because I know it's going to end up as a pull quote on some blog somewhere because. Cause it's, you know, like, I can't. We can't go on have a Las Culturistas episode without and say the kind of stuff we used to say as friends because we know that it's now Pop Crave is gonna report on it like it's news.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Joel Kim Booster]

So it has changed, like the public facing nature of our friendships, I think, because back in the day, like, when we were nothing and nobody, like, it was fun. It was fun to like, you know, have these friendships that we weren't even trying to like. Like put, like create a paras social sort of sense around. But like, people sort of brought that to it. And it was like, fine back then because, you know, whatever we. The. The attention felt novel, but now it just definitely feels like it could interfere with genuine moments of happiness in our lives. So.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah, I thought. I've always thought of you as somewhat immune to whatever this. But craziness is because, like, you are stand. Like you had the baseline of like, stand up, stand up. Like comedy clubs can do that. Which is sort of a grounding that. I think when that scene was sort of first coming up, this sort of new queer comedian scene, Brooklyn scene, it was like a lot of people from sketch, a lot of people from improv, like people from Cabaret. This is nothing against any. It just sort of was this sort of moment, a lot of people singing on stage and it was great. It was so exciting. Did you ever feel almost odd? You're like. I'm like also just like a regular stand up.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah, all the time. I mean, back then. I don't think this happens very often now, although I've seen it in past. Since I was lumped in with alt comedians and I did not think anything I was doing was alt. The only thing that was in an era in like the early 2010s where if you were a woman, a person of color or queer, you were considered an alt comedian, even if you were doing structurally the same kind as fucking, you know, Mulaney at that point. I mean, that's the thing is like, when I started doing standup, the two people that I stole from the most were John Mulaney and Louis C.K. like, it was like, those were the two comments. Those were the people. People were stealing. Yeah, exactly. Like I was doing it alongside all these Straight white boy comedians at the open mics, too, who were also trying to, you know, figure that out, which I, by the way, I think is totally legitimate. Like, I think it's funny. Like, when I heard, like, there was in that period as we were coming up, like, everyone was comparing every gay comic to John Earl. Yeah. At that time. And it was like, well, yeah, they're still. Because we're. They're a year in. And the thing is, is every. Almost every comedian, their first couple of years is cribbing a little bit from the cadence or the. The style of some other comedian. And it's just now there's more options available to crib from.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Joel Kim Booster]

You know, and so it's like, yeah, just let them cook.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. There literally were, like, there were so few gay comedians then.

[Joel Kim Booster]

They're.

[Jesse David Fox]

So when there is. Is some aspiring gay comedians, like, well, I guess I will crib from the.

[Joel Kim Booster]

The most successful one.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. They're not gonna be like, well, I guess we'll ignore that and just go back to. And so it's like the who people steal from evolves. Right. Like. Like, you listen to Early Mulaney, and he's doing Mitch Hedberg, and you would not think of it, but you're like. You're like, that's Mitch Hedberg, That's Eugene Mirman, and that's Mike Rebigla, and that's, like, just it. And now he sounds like him, and now a million people sound like John. Yeah, but you were not. You were not doing, like, whatever this sort of.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Like, I wasn't Julio. I wasn't Julio. And that's the thing. It's like, when I think of all, like, people who are really pushing the form and playing with the form and not do it and not just doing anti comedy.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Joel Kim Booster]

You know, but, like, really, like, making you laugh, but in a way and in a form that, like, really felt like, new and fresh and, like, innovative. Like, innovation. When I think of innovation, Innovation and comedy, I think of Julio and like. Yeah. And so it. To. It's. It's like, you know, flattering to be lumped in with people like that. But again, like, I wasn't, you know, remaking the wheel by any means with what I was doing.

[Jesse David Fox]

But imagine now the benefit is like, okay, well, now, like, no matter what. What happens in your career, you're gonna always be like, I can. I can do the job of being a comedian.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah. No, I mean, I. I just said this to somebody else recently, but the reason I still, like, listen, it does not Pay my bills. It is not, not the thing that's bringing in the most lucrative amount of money for me in terms of everything that I do in this industry. But I return to it and want to return to it for as long as it seems interesting for me to return to it. Because, you know, like when I get a script sold or when I make a movie or when I'm cast in something, you know, there is always going to be a subsect of people who think it's because of DEI or because it's diversity push in Hollywood, et cetera, et cetera, and that I didn't deserve and that it's only, you know, because of wokeness that I got where I am in Hollywood. But the thing about standup is in that moment, the immediacy of standup in that moment on stage, I'm either making the audience laugh or I'm not making the audience laugh. And I'm sorry, but people do not force themselves to laugh for an hour sustained, maybe a couple jokes, you'll get that, but not for an hour straight. And in that moment, standup becomes this great meritocracy of like you're either making them laugh or you're not. And when I'm making them laugh, you can't tell me shit. It is the most affirming part of. I have no self doubt in that moment of the crowd laughing. And so it is the thing that grounds me back and reminds me that oh no, I am good at what I do. And so I will again until I run out of things that are relatable or interesting to say, I want to keep doing it. And I hopefully I will have the good sense to know when that happens.

[Jesse David Fox]

However you want to answer this, this. How much money do you make or how much money do you have?

[Joel Kim Booster]

I. I don't know how to answer that in, in a oblique way. I am, I am more comfortable than I ever expected my, me to be. And I've had to reset the goalposts in terms of both success and financial stuff a couple times because again, like I never expected to pay off my student loans in my lifetime. So it, it never occurred to me that I'd be able to buy a house, you know, or be, you know, own property. Like that was like something that I think like was sort of out of reach for my parents and my family. And like certainly, you know, not a lot of people in my family do. And so it was like that is, I mean, so yeah, that's the answer, I guess is I own a house which not a lot of millennials are going to be able to do, 100%.

[Jesse David Fox]

So that's a good answer.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Thank you.

[Jesse David Fox]

How is being happily married changed your comedy?

[Joel Kim Booster]

You know what? It fucking hasn't. And that's the most frustrating part about it, is that when I started, because I haven't. When I met my husband, he was the first, like, boyfriend that I ever had. I never had material about being in a relationship because I was never in a relationship. And I thought, oh, this is gonna be great, because we started dating right around the time I filmed my special. And so I was like, I'm gonna need more. I'm gonna need new material. So this is great. And because our relationship has been, generally speaking, uncomplicated and really healthy and really loving and, you know, awesome and makes me so happy, it's unfortunately not the best place to write comedy from, is being really, really happy and content. And that has continued on into marriage. And so he is not the joke generator that I thought he would be. And that is. That's the only frustration I have with our marriage, is that he's not. That I'm not inspired more to write bits about it.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you think monogamy is actually the thing that generates.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Oh, you know, that's interesting. No, but that's an interesting theory, certainly. Do you.

[Jesse David Fox]

I mean, you've talked about, like, you're doing more observational and sort of sillier stuff now, and you. You have, I think, one joke in your last special. You sort of allude to that you're diagnosed bipolar and you have that bij. You have not talked about your dad passing on stage. Is that a thing you. And I'm just curious. It's like, there's some comedians who in the airplane go, this is my time to, like, really?

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah. No, I mean, there are dad. There are definitely dad dad jokes in this new hour that I'm touring. There's maybe there's one again, sort of vague reference to being bipolar in the new hour, too, But. But again, like, I go where the comedy is and I don't try to force it. And so if, like, I don't sit down and think, like, okay, what parts of my experience as a person with mental illness are interesting conceits to mind for comedy? Like, it really is like, again, like, it has to be generated from a really natural place for me to be able to write about it. And that's, like, it makes me a slower generator of material. Like, I'm not Sam Moral with my, like, Google spreadsheet of all my fucking hundreds of bits that I've written in that day. You know, I'm not. I'm just not as prolific as that and I never will be. So, yeah, it's, it's. It has to strike me. And it hasn't necessarily struck me in ways to, like, build my Edinburgh show around it yet.

[Jesse David Fox]

It is funny to imagine it can be like, what aspects of my mental

[Joel Kim Booster]

illness can I destigmatize?

[Jesse David Fox]

Oh, I could destigmatize this aspect.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

When you were last on my podcast, we were talking about your gay dad's joke. You're married.

[Joel Kim Booster]

So I am. And now we are planning on having kids in six years, so I've reversed my stance on gay dads. You're pretty anti. I know I was pretty anti. But here's the thing about that, is that I was conceptualizing what the experience of having kids with no conception of what it would be like to have a partner. And so I think that's what really changed me on that is because I entered the relationship and he pretty quickly told me he wanted kids. And I said, you know, whatever we'll deal with, we'll kick that can down the road. But what happens when you fall in love and this doesn't happen for everybody, and I understand that, is that suddenly you're like, oh, this would be something I'd be doing with you. And that seemed so much more appealing suddenly to me than it did when I was like a single person who was living quite selfishly for myself. And, yeah, I think I looked at him one day and was like, yeah, we would collaborate on something really cool. So let's do this. And the relationship has changed me into being a person that I think could be a dad. Yeah. So, yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And the material then.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah, no, exactly. Those little kids better generate me some good ass material.

[Jesse David Fox]

I don't think that there has yet to be a person. There's. So actually there's one comedian. I can't remember who it was, but I remember distinctly that they have almost no jokes about their kids, but literally every other comedian does. Yeah. And they're like, I have nothing. There's nothing funny to say.

[Joel Kim Booster]

I just. I love it.

[Jesse David Fox]

Like, oh, that's great. That's beautiful. You sold a movie to Fox Light? You sold a movie to fox searchlight in 2024? Yes. Considering. Do you think the movie's gonna get made? Where are you right now in terms of the likelihood of it?

[Joel Kim Booster]

So we've attached two people to it, whether it'll happen at Searchlight or Somewhere else remains to be seen. We hope to start shooting it this year or early next year. I'm really excited about it. It's very different from Fire Island. I think it's, it's, it's definitely like, exercises a whole different set of muscles creatively for me. Um, but yeah, it's like I was really spoiled with Fire island because of the way it was developed at Quibi first. And then we were able to go to market with a pretty, you know, noted to death script already. And so it was primed and ready for purchase. And then because of Bowen's schedule, we had to move really fast in shooting it. And so that process, I mean, from like, it was, God, it must have been like four or five months from selling it to going into pre production, like, seriously. And so that spoiled me a lot. And in this timeline of like, it's been a couple years and that is deeply frustrating to me. But honestly, like, I tell that to other filmmakers and they're like, oh, that's nothing.

[Jesse David Fox]

That's why I asked. It's like, literally, you, it's this two years in. You could be often people.

[Joel Kim Booster]

It was announced in 2024. I will say I sold it in like, probably less than a year after Fire island came out. So it's been longer for me. That announcement actually was like a chair, an act of charity by Fox Searchlight because it gave me, like, oh, like, finally I hit this milestone of like, they'll announce it. Yeah. And so, like, oh, it's moving slightly more on the hook. Yeah, slightly more on the hook about

[Jesse David Fox]

it, but do you think Fire island would be made today?

[Joel Kim Booster]

No, absolutely not. I know that for sure. Like, I got in under the Wire, I think, think in a lot of ways with that movie and the interest around it and, you know, maybe, I don't know. I think in a. Yeah, it's hard to say, but I definitely don't think so. I think the industry has gotten a little bit more sheepish and apprehensive about content that is not. Does. Would not appeal to the biggest market share, which is straight white people. And. Yeah, and so I, I have seen that and felt that in, in a lot of different ways. And I definitely think that it would have been a, A different experience trying to get that movie made today than, than in 2021.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, you can imagine. The, the notes you now get are, like, truly terrible.

[Joel Kim Booster]

I mean, yeah, I, I, I read what the heated rivalry guys went through trying to make it in America versus making it for Craven, and I can't imagine what we'd even get to the notes stage with Fire island today.

[Jesse David Fox]

What Fire island scene are you most proud of? Now?

[Joel Kim Booster]

There's two I'm really proud of comedically. I'm really proud of the heads up scene. I think you remembered Alicia Vikander, but you couldn't remember Marisa Tomei is one of my favorite written lines from that scene because there's a lot of unwritten. There's a lot of lines in that scene. I did not write that. I'm also, you know, very kudos to Matt and Tomas for. For creating that, making that scene what it really is. And it's probably the most viral scene from the movie too. But the other scene I'm really proud of is the scene with me and Bowen in the bathroom where it's this come to Jesus moment of Bowen saying, like, yes, we share this one experience of being gay and Asian, but your experience navigating this space is much different than mine will ever be. And I think it was a necessary scene to include in the movie because otherwise I would have seemed insane and out of touch and. And blind to my own privilege. But it was one of the first scenes Bowen and I shot together. It was a really difficult scene to ask Bowen to do in the first place. Looking back on it, I actually think it's kind of crazy that I even wrote it and expected him to do it and then Andrew expected him to do it on day three to go to that place emotionally. But I am really proud of that scene. I'm proud of both of our performances in that scene, proud of the writing of it. And I think it is probably one of the most necessary scenes in the movie.

[Jesse David Fox]

What was your favorite scene to film or you seen? You remember most films?

[Joel Kim Booster]

Definitely. I think any of the scenes that we shot actually on Fire island, so any of the exteriors of the Ice palace, the underwear party, that was our last night. And I remember all of us being in really goofy, fun moods because we were shooting until probably wrapped at 4am that night and then went immediately, immediately to a red eye to come back to la. And so I was delirious that entire time. And it was just. It was really like. It felt like we were all, you know, summer camp was coming to an end and this really great experience, like the best experience I've ever had in professionally was coming to an end. And so it was bittersweet, but it was also like a celebration too. And that's, yeah, definitely some of the.

[Jesse David Fox]

I rewatched it this morning and the thing that got. I laughed the loudest at was so you. Early in the thing you have, you guys are being funny. And then the guy goes like, you guys are so funny.

[Joel Kim Booster]

And he's like.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's like, do you know Amy Schumer? But the funniest part is much later, the callback where he goes, these are the Amy Schumer guys.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it. And it's funny because, you know, it got people. The accusation of. Was leveled against me that I was mean to Amy Schumer in that moment. And it's not. That's not what the point of the scene was. It was not making fun of Amy in any sort of way. It was calling back to a very real experience that I have had had coming up as a standup, where I would tell people what I did, and then they'd go like, oh, I love standup. I love Amy Schumer. And it was just the ubiquitousness of, like, people. Most people who are not comedy nerds can name maybe five or six comedians. That's what I say. That's. That's it.

[Jesse David Fox]

They are the nominated for the Grammys.

[Joel Kim Booster]

It was honestly, like, Amy being in that pantheon of the five or six people that would constantly be brought up, especially by gay men is like. It's a.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's.

[Joel Kim Booster]

It's. It's a boon, you know? Like, I think, like, the fact that she is a reference point for all of standup comedy for a lot of people is, like, you know, nothing to. To sneeze at. So. Yeah. And it was more so making fun of gay guy's lack of reference points than it was anything to do with Amy.

[Jesse David Fox]

It has nothing to do with Amy because that. That's not what the joke would mean at all. These are people that don't know anything. Exactly. So why they wouldn't pull Amy Schumer as a specific example? It just was exactly the thing of

[Joel Kim Booster]

that that people were used to say to me all the time.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. Who are you jealous of professionally? Wow.

[Joel Kim Booster]

I probably Julio the most. I would say, like, I think, like, Julio has been given as a kind of latitude creatively that is really hard to come by in this industry. And, you know, I think, like, because he's sort of crosses the Rubicon so far deep into being this singular, creative voice. Like, I think a lot of what I do is a lot of other people, and, you know, I steal from the best, but, you know, I think, like, people. And there are people behind Julio, too, that really believe in the vision, and I certainly have Advocates myself, but I think that like, what he's managed to do and accomplish in the same period of time, you know, that we, we, we were at open mics together in New York and like, it's fun. He was just at my house recently and we had. It was me and Sam Taggart and him just sort of standing in a circle being like, isn't it fucking crazy that we used to be like 11pm at Pine Box Rock Shop in Bushwick waiting hours to do 90 seconds of material and now like, we really did the thing. Yeah. And so, you know, and, and I, I definitely think that like, yeah, Julio is enviable because he hasn't had to make many concessions, I don't think in getting to the place where he has. And you know, I've gotten the notes and I've made adjustments based on them.

[Jesse David Fox]

You said the worst experience you've had professionally was hosting the reality show.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Oh, for sure.

[Jesse David Fox]

Why? But also, how did it inform then how you wanted to pursue your career?

[Joel Kim Booster]

It came from a place of like, you know, I came up and I had a real scarcity mentality when I was first breaking. You know, I said I had to say yes to everything because I wasn't getting a lot of opportunities. So you just said yes to everything that could possibly. And you know, I'm a multi hyphenate, so I, you know, I'm putting a lot of bets on a lot of different horses in my career. And that was a period of time where I had nothing else going and I felt like, you know, why not? You know, I'm a Bravo fan and it just, I flew a little too close to the sun and I didn't take care of myself while filming it. It was an extremely stressful shoot for me and you know, the ultimate sort of no one's gonna remember the job I did hosting that show. Everyone will remember how I, you know, really fucked up my life at the end of it by going to social media to air out grievances. And so it's, it's a deeply embarrassing chapter in my career. And not because of the show, not because of what I did on the show, but just how I look back on me shooting the show and how I spiraled and crashed out after shooting that show because of a lot of different factors and. Yeah, so it's not, it's not something I, I like to think or dwell on.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you not so, but you've now. But I think it did help you learn, like, oh, I can't say yes to everything. Yeah.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Oh, yeah. I think, like, it's. It's definitely made me think a little bit more about, like, honing in on, like, the projects that. That make sense and like, are. Are leading me in a direction that. That is like less of a, you know, scattershot, like, throw everything at the wall sort of career.

[Jesse David Fox]

You participated in one of the Taskmaster Live. Yeah, sure. You think. You think you can get on?

[Joel Kim Booster]

Well, I got that. I. I participated in a live show because I specifically had my manager hound them about getting on that show. And unfortunately, now Kumail has lift. Raised the bar for the famous people they can get. So I wonder if I'm even in the running anymore. But no, I. And we did the live show. We hung out with Al, Greg for. And their families for that night. And it was. If I only ever get to do that, I'll be happy, but I desperately want to do that.

[Jesse David Fox]

You know, they were here and it seems like they need American comedians.

[Joel Kim Booster]

The way they talked about it is

[Jesse David Fox]

that there's only like 300 total British comedians and they've already done like, however many seasons. They do two a year or whatever. And, um, I think he. I think it's possible.

[Joel Kim Booster]

I would. I. I don't think they're like, it

[Jesse David Fox]

now has to only be people. Kumail or Morpheus.

[Joel Kim Booster]

No, no, no, I know, but.

[Jesse David Fox]

But I do think. Yeah, I think that once they realize. I do think the Kamal thing, like, what is the. What is the bar that we have?

[Joel Kim Booster]

Exactly. But I know a lot of. Of people that have. Have reached out to them too. So I, like Lisa Gilroy and I talked about this. We're both big taskmaster people, and I think, like, Lisa probably will get on before I do, but, like, it is like something that is on the professional bucket list for sure.

[Jesse David Fox]

The other that I. What's your dream superhero movie situation? Speaking of Camille.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah. Look, you are a. I'm a big comic and a Marvel Rivals. Marvel Rivals addict. Unfortunately, it's ruined my life in a lot of ways. I think I would like to do something not in the big tentpole space, but something a little bit more in the ground level street view, like Bat Family World, you know, like some. Like the Matt Reeves Batman I think is a pretty good. It is obviously a huge, you know, tentpole, like blockbuster film, but like, I think like something. I'm trying to think of a good example of something smaller scale.

[Jesse David Fox]

But I mean, like, I imagine I can see you aspiring to like Chris Emiliotti on the pen.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yes, yes. That is. That is exactly what I was trying to think about. Yeah. Something definitely like that, that does feel

[Jesse David Fox]

like, like the, Because I can imagine like if you're in a Marvel movie, which I'm sure there's joys of it. It is also like literally you live in whoever's wherever.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Exactly.

[Jesse David Fox]

And you're sitting around and you're like, go. Stop. And then you're like there for another week and do it. But like Kristen got to like she could to like.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah. Do a lot of stretched a lot of different muscles in that show.

[Jesse David Fox]

This question, as you can see, just says you should write a book.

[Joel Kim Booster]

I am.

[Jesse David Fox]

I know. I think you, you have written. Write a book.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Tell me about this book.

[Joel Kim Booster]

It's gonna be a book of essays because I don't think anyone needs a memoir from a 38 year old. It's, you know, again, it's that thing of having distance from your life. And so it's mostly essays that talk about, you know, my, my relationship with my dad and, you know, early days of standup. It does get into a lot more of the, the nitty gritty of, of what, it's what my experience of being bipolar has been like. And so it captures different moments in my life, but usually pretty early. And it's not necessarily a mem, you know, exploration of my entire life, you know, but I'm still in the process of writing. It's going to be an essay collection, so it's easier to sort of write it in chunks.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you have a sense of where, when it might come out or you let it say that?

[Joel Kim Booster]

I don't know. I don't think. I know. I, I, My deadline is December, but we'll see if I make it.

[Jesse David Fox]

So. I know you're a big David Rackoff head. Yeah, I'm big. Huge.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Huge. I, I always say like, I point to fraud as like the, the biggest inspo point for me in writing this book.

[Jesse David Fox]

I was literally just telling my coworker that I was like, I need to lend you my if have you read. He's like, no. I was like, you got it. It. The, his death is like one of the most impactful celebrity deaths ever. Because I was like, oh, he's to me the greatest mind at that time. How you so which leads me to, and I feel like his essay about Rent is like a great. Four people have read it. Like a good litmus test for how people feel about how one should pursue art professionally, basically. For those who haven't read this very specific essay about the musical Rent, David Rackoff did not like It. Because it was like a. She felt there. These people were entitled and, like, they're like, why should these people just get to live for free? They're artists. And also, they were never working. Yeah. And there's. Every few years, you're like, wait, but shouldn't people.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Where are you currently with the musical Rent as a allegory for how an artist should live, as a way of seeing how you feel like you. What you feel like you're.

[Joel Kim Booster]

I think. I think of Rent as a period piece. You know, Like, I. I don't think it speaks necessarily or needs to speak to the current political or socio, you know, economic landscape that we're currently living in for it to be a really effective piece of theater. And I, like, I have so much affection for that show, and I have. But I completely understand the comedic angle that David Rakoff was writing from. But I. I mean, you have to understand, like, the first year when I. When I moved out of my house when I was 17 for, you know, know, the religious gay stuff, you know, butting up against that, I. The first Christmas out away from my family, I spent with a friend's family, extended family, and they. The mom, I surely, you know, alerted the extended family, like, we're bringing a homeless gay teen to Christmas this year. And it was the same year that the Rent movie came out and I opened up. The first gift that I got that year was the Rent movie soundtrack. And I was like, oh, what an obvious choice for, you know, homeless gay teen. And then I proceeded to open up three more gifts that were all the Rent movie soundtrack. And so I ended up with three or four Rent movie soundtracks by the end of that, which I obviously already owned, but it was like. And so I think when I think about Rent, I think about that, and I think about how emblematic it is for a lot of people of the experience of a gay artist, a queer artist. And, you know, they're not wrong. I mean, they nailed me with the interest point. But, you know, do you think they should have.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you think they're being whiny or do you feel like they. Do you. Do you. Where do you stand? Do you agree with David Rackoff at this point or not?

[Joel Kim Booster]

I think I'm probably a little bit more, you know, column A, column B in terms of, like, were they justified or were they not? I think his point of. They weren't really doing any of the things that they were saying they were doing. And the reason they didn't and have Rent, you know, was because of that. But, you know, I'm thinking about it now. I think, you know, Colin certainly was doing the work. You know, Maureen put up her show.

[Jesse David Fox]

There's a documentary at the end.

[Joel Kim Booster]

There's a documentary at the end. So maybe it's.

[Jesse David Fox]

He wrote that one bad song.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah. One bad song. Yeah, he did write it. And, you know, in thinking about it now, I guess it's not too dissimilar from the way I came up in Chicago and New York. I'm Mitchell Purse, two time NWSL champion, championship MVP and forward for the US Women's National Team. Before I went pro, I graduated from Harvard with a degree in psychology, which comes in handy more than you think. Any athlete pursuing greatness knows there's a certain mentality you have to have. What people don't know is what that costs. In my podcast, Confessions of an Elite Athlete, I sit down with the best athletes in the world and explore the psychology, mindset, and unseen battles on the path to greatness.

[Jesse David Fox]

So take a seat and learn from

[Joel Kim Booster]

the Confessions of an elite athlete on

[Jesse David Fox]

YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Hey, I'm Matt Bushel, comedian, writer, and floating head you may or may not

[Jesse David Fox]

have seen on your for your page.

[Joel Kim Booster]

And I'm starting a bottom brand new podcast.

[Jesse David Fox]

Wait, wait, don't swipe away.

[Joel Kim Booster]

It's called that Sounds like a Lot. As in that feeling when you check your phone in the morning, you read through headlines and you immediately think, oh, that sounds like a lot. I can't deal with all this, but guess what? I can deal with it. And I'm going to get into it. Every Friday, I'll break down whatever chaos

[Jesse David Fox]

is happening in the world.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Then I'll sit down with a comedian. You can be progressive and not be like, annoying. Maybe an actor. They go, feminism has gone too far. You go, why?

[Jesse David Fox]

Because the Sadie Hawkins dance happened?

[Joel Kim Booster]

Maybe a filmmaker. Since leaving that show, I'm challenged sparingly. I just kind of hang out and try to do. You're the one with a charmed life. Could be a politician. Basically anyone who responds to my cold DMs. We're recording the whole thing in a beautiful studio. So yes, you can watch it on YouTube or you can listen wherever you get your podcast. This is not the place to get the news, but it is the place to feel a little better about it. That sounds like a lot. Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, I'm Maria Sharapova and I'm hosting a

[Jesse David Fox]

new podcast called Pretty Tough. Every week I'm sitting down with trailblazing

[Joel Kim Booster]

women at the top of their game

[Jesse David Fox]

to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the

[Joel Kim Booster]

ups and downs that come on the

[Jesse David Fox]

path to achieving greatness.

[Joel Kim Booster]

We'll dive into their stories and get

[Jesse David Fox]

valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs,

[Joel Kim Booster]

and other individuals who have inspired me

[Jesse David Fox]

so much in my own journey. Follow Pretty tough wherever you get your podcasts. So now it's time for our final segment. It's not really a lightning round because you don't have to answer these questions quickly. These are just questions at the end. Have you been watching the season of Drag Race?

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

This will air definitely after it comes out, so we will look stupid. But what do you think? What do you think about who won? Whoever it is?

[Joel Kim Booster]

Uh, it's such an interesting season. I actually find it I a very. One of the most likable casts in recent memory. I think in part because they're a little bit older and they're all really self possessed and really confident, I think for the most part. And that makes for maybe less interesting tension on a reality show, but it has made for a really delightful watch because they all know that they're good at what they do and, you know, don't seem bothered, particularly by the competitive aspect of the show. But that being said, I think it's Darlene's to lose at this point, which I never would have said at the beginning of the season. But I think that she has won over Rue. I think she's won over the audience at this point. And I think, you know, we don't know what lip syncing will look like from her yet because she hasn't lip synced. So I think like, it's my. Darlene is the one I think has the most interesting narrative arc to win they want.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's almost like they're going into the finale wanting her to win.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Joel Kim Booster]

It felt like in terms of. Cause like who was getting the winner's edit this season other than Juicy or Jane, honestly. And then they both went home and so I think like, yeah, it's almost as though they were taken off guard by that because no one, they haven't tipped it in anyone's direction except I think arguably Darlene's a little bit.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yes. And now in retrospect, like, because I was like, oh, this season's really like a race for who's going to win Miss Congeniality, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you're like, wait, but what Miss Congeniality friend who's like, that's actually what they're. What if she's Going to win. Jane's going to win Miss Congeniality because she helped everyone do it.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah. I don't know. But yeah, no, I've really enjoyed watching this. Yeah. We all know that somehow Needy Coco won.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you feel like you have any different perspective on AI Guy to offer?

[Joel Kim Booster]

No.

[Jesse David Fox]

Great. Do you have a favorite joke.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Joke, joke of mine or somebody?

[Jesse David Fox]

Like a street joke?

[Joel Kim Booster]

Oh, street. Like a.

[Jesse David Fox]

Like a joke joke.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Oh, like a knock, knock joke or something along those lines. You know what I just understood? Why did the chicken cross the road? To get to the other side. I literally did not get. Get the double meaning in that joke.

[Jesse David Fox]

Wait, what's the other meaning?

[Joel Kim Booster]

Because I thought, like, it's just like an oh, to get to the other side of the road. But it's. If the chicken is crossing the road, it's gonna get hit by a car and go to the other side.

[Jesse David Fox]

So here's the thing about that joke that is brilliant. And I think you're both. You are correct if I didn't know the history of that joke.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Oh, there's a real history to this joke. Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

So this is actually like, I now have to. These are both true things. So I want that to be. I want people to have that not knowledge and skip over 20 seconds to know. So you don't know what the real thing which was like, the joke dates before cars.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Wow.

[Jesse David Fox]

So that joke is a minstrel joke.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Wow.

[Jesse David Fox]

And it was, I believe, like in a series of a type of joke to like, as mental shows do, to just be like, these people are stupid. Right. Like, it's nonsense. Like it's just sort of nonsense and like. So it's not anti comedy as we think of. It's like anti comedy where the comedians in charge. But it's like, though I imagine as the joke has evolved, there's ways in which it's been playing with. And I'm sure there's like, it became an inside joke for black minstrel performers to make fun of what they think. White audiences think. Whatever.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

This is all to say, oh, so.

[Joel Kim Booster]

So I was. I.

[Jesse David Fox]

But your way of saying it is

[Joel Kim Booster]

it makes the joke really fun. Like in a. In a way. And I felt so dumb for never getting catching onto that.

[Jesse David Fox]

It is also crazy. It's like, true, really. We've all known this joker forever. And then it's like, I have not heard that interpretation. And you think I'm thinking about death all the time.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you have a short story of an interaction with legendary comedian living or Dead.

[Joel Kim Booster]

I mean, there's a bunch that I could tell about Margaret. There's a bunch. I think maybe, yeah. Adam Sandler. The first movie role I ever had was in an Adam Sandler movie on Netflix that I cannot even remember the week of. The week of. Yes. It is Robert Altman style movie. Yes, yes. And I played just a airline attendant in the film that wheels out his uncle in that film. And I remember in between takes, standing next to Adam and I was like, nervous. It's the first time I've ever met him. And he just turns to me and he goes, you're a comedian. And I go, yeah. And he was. Was like, do you curse a lot? And I went, yeah. And he was like, I guess everybody is these days. And then that was the only interaction that we had the entire shoot. That's the only, the only conversation we had. And it was this. It was like the.

[Jesse David Fox]

His standup was like the filthiest standup.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah. I think it wasn't a judgmental thing either. It was just, I think, like, I don't know where his head was at that day, but it was. The only question he asked about my standup was if I cursed a lot.

[Jesse David Fox]

Fascinating.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Or he might have said cussed a lot. I don't remember. The word was very. It was not.

[Jesse David Fox]

I don't know if this is speaking terms out of school, but I remember when you're in it, I asked you about it and you said he seemed really busy.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah, I mean, maybe it.

[Jesse David Fox]

He just seemed really busy on set. You're like, cuz Adam does a lot.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah, that. But yeah, he did do a lot. And that was probably. He was very busy and that's why we didn't have more interactions than we asked. Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And you have the story.

[Joel Kim Booster]

I couldn't believe he knew I was a comedian. So.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, that's nice that he even goes, what's this kid's deal?

[Joel Kim Booster]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jesse David Fox]

Oh, he's a comedian. He's like, oh, okay. Who's the greatest comedian alive?

[Joel Kim Booster]

Alive right now?

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, alive right now. Not.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Oh, gosh, that's tough. That's a tough one. I'm gonna say. Just my personal taste. It's Jaclyn Novak.

[Jesse David Fox]

Oh, yeah. Why that?

[Joel Kim Booster]

I find that she bridges the gap, I think, between a very old school sensibility about standup and how she approaches standup, but a very singular sort of new age of standup comedy thought process around constructing jokes. I think she's doing like, again, it's not quite Julio Torres, where it's like Singular in a, in a. And in challenging the form deconstructed my opinion. But it's not, you know, she's not a club comic either, by any means anymore, although she could. And I've seen Jacqueline killing clubs. And I think, like, she just covers such a wide breadth of the different ways you can do comedy and is so funny and successful at it too, that it's just, I always feel very safe watching Jacqueline because I know even if she's trying out new stuff and even if it's not like, necessarily crushing, she will find a way to make it fun funny. And she always does. And I, I, I just love her.

[Jesse David Fox]

That's great. It's a great answer. What is the best time you ever bombed?

[Joel Kim Booster]

You know what? I, I've only ever bombed bad in a headlining set. I think there's definitely been like, you know, bar sets and things like that where I've not done well. But it was the week leading up to the 2016 election and it was in Arizona, in Phoenix. And my closer or my feature that week was just somebody who the club had picked. Like, I was set up to fail in this situation because I was a last minute replacement for the comic who was supposed to be there that weekend. And I remember sitting at the bar before my first show and this old, the other comic's tabletoppers were still, and his picture was still all over the bar. And the guy ordering a drink picks up the tabletopper, looks at it and shows it to the bartender and goes, this guy isn't too much of a faggot, is he? And our bartender, who knew it was me at this point was just like, oh, no. Like, actually we have a different comedian, so he's not, he's not the one performing tonight. And she didn't know what to say. I didn't know what to say. And then I knew, I just knew walking on that stage it was gonna be bad. And it was me eating shit for seven shows Wednesday through Sunday. And it was a nightmare. But I will say it did bring me one of my favorite jokes that I did in my, on my album and in my, my Comedy Central special, which is the woman in the audience who shouted out after I was talking about being gay and adopted that I wouldn't have been gay if I'd have been breastfed. And that was maybe the biggest laughs I'd, I had had the entire week was me engaging with this woman for about 20 minutes on, like, what she was talking about and just like, do. And that, again, is an early Example of like crowd work really working out for me. But again, I think she, she was being a little funnier than I was in that sense that she was just being nonsensical. But yeah, it brought me and definitely was maybe the only bright spot in that week. But yeah, man, when I luck, I'm very blessed to say I'm not eating shit like that ever since.

[Jesse David Fox]

So do you have a joke that you thought at the time was really, really funny that but people are like, no, that's not funny or doesn't work in front of audiences. But you'll go to your grave being like, you know what? I was right. They're wrong. That's funny.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Oh yeah, you know what? I, I used to have examples of this like ready to pull up at a drop of a hat. But I have one about how I find pigeons to be self important that hits about 10% of the time. And I find it to be like exactly in the lane of the kind of comedy I want to be doing right now. And it just is a little too cerebral maybe or it just requires a little too much buy in from the audience that I haven't figured out where to place it in the set where it will be understood or funny enough to people.

[Jesse David Fox]

Is it because of how they stand?

[Joel Kim Booster]

No, I find birds in general the way that the joke is essentially that when I am standing outside doing nothing and a pigeon next to me flies away in fear of me, it is obnoxious to me because it's like I wasn't even thinking about you. You wish you were on my radar bird, but you'll never be. You will never be something I care about. You will never. I will never. I would never even think to come to you because I know I don't think about you. And it goes on for a while. I also do, but again, 10% success rate is not high enough to reliably get an audience special.

[Jesse David Fox]

Just me. And I'd be like, do it again. Thank you so much.

[Joel Kim Booster]

Thank you for.

[Jesse David Fox]

That's it for another episode of Good One. Good One is produced by myself, Zachary Mack, Neil Janowitz and Ann Victoria Clark. Music Composed by Brandon McFarland. Write, review and rate the show on Apple Podcasts. Five stars, please. I am Jesse David Fox and you can follow me at Jesse David Fox. Buy my book, comedy book, wherever books are sold. Thanks for listening to Good one from New York magazine. You can subscribe to the magazine at NYMag. Be back with a new episode next week. Have a good one.