Morgan Neville on the State of Documentaries and Making 'Lorne'

Summary

GOOD ONE: Morgan Neville on the State of Documentaries and Making 'Lorne'
Host: Jesse David Fox
Guest: Morgan Neville
Release Date: May 14, 2026

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Episode Overview

Pulitzer-winning documentarian Morgan Neville joins host Jesse David Fox to discuss his prolific career, the evolving landscape of documentaries, and his new projects—including 'Lorne', a feature documentary on Lorne Michaels, and 'Man on the Run' with Paul McCartney. Neville shares behind-the-scenes stories, insights on subject collaboration, and reflections on issues of taste, fame, AI, monoculture, and creativity. The conversation is rich with anecdotes, especially about working with iconic figures, and offers a deep dive into both the nuts-and-bolts and philosophy of contemporary documentary filmmaking.

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Major Discussion Points & Insights

A Peak Life Moment: Paul McCartney Shout-Out

• [01:04] Neville recounts attending an LA McCartney show where, after performing "Jet," McCartney called him out for directing 'Man on the Run', asked the crowd to raise the lights to spot him, and jokingly invited him to sing:

  "He’s like, ‘Morgan, where are you?’ ... He’s like, ‘You’re going to have to sing the next one.’ ... greatest call out." – Neville

Interviewing Techniques & Challenges

• [02:11] Neville on how he prepares for interviews:

  “I usually do a lot of preparation, then I distill it all to a list of words, and then I never look at it... I just try and think about the first question.”

  • His go-to opener: “If I’m making a film about your life, what type of a movie is it? Give me a genre.”

The Gore Vidal Interview Story

• [02:59 - 06:12] Neville recalls a disastrous first interview with Gore Vidal ("I had my rage to keep me warm"), which ended terribly but was followed by a charming 90-minute conversation over cocktails—none of which made it to the documentary.

Managing a Prolific Career

• [06:12 - 09:45] Neville has made an astonishing number of films across six years—archival-focused structures and a strong, consistent team allow for this level of output.
  • He approaches his work like “short-order cooking,” cycling between edit bays and relying on instinct for some projects, while others require years-long deep engagement.

The Streaming Era & the State of Documentaries

• [10:02 - 15:37]
  • Neville describes the waves in the industry, particularly the "documentary mania" post-2018, how streaming and algorithmic thinking (think: Netflix) changed the quality and expectations:

    “If everything gets reduced to a lowest common denominator... that has nothing to do with quality or passion.”

  • Critical of AI/algorithm-driven content pushing expectations lower, Neville points to the risk of documentaries treading toward infotainment and lowest-common-denominator programming.

Money, Independence & Turning Down Projects

• [16:10 - 20:05]
  • Neville demystifies the finances:

    “I’ve done way better than I ever thought I would do as a documentary filmmaker. But ... we’re not getting rich.” “For 20 years I didn’t make money doing this. ... I didn’t get into this business to have an empire.”

  • He eschews projects when he can’t love the idea immediately, thanks in part to his wife’s advice:

    “If you’re thinking about it, do not do it.”

Collaborating with Iconic Subjects: Paul McCartney, Steve Martin, Pharrell

• [21:01 - 24:50]
  • On artist-as-executive-producer dynamics:

    “The McCartney project—I did not change a frame of that film for Paul.”

    • Pharrell was editorially hands-off; McCartney was an EP due to precedent.
  • The challenge with music documentaries:

    “With music, you are in business together... Licensing Beatles songs—we paid... nobody owed [background vocalists] anything for 20ft from Stardom.”

Processing Criticism & Cult Success

• [25:43 - 29:18]
  • Neville discusses McCartney’s ongoing difficulty processing the critical reception/cult afterlife of Ram, noting Paul still recalls the critics’ names:

    “He started telling me the names of music critics who wrote bad reviews in 1971… It stung.”

On John Lennon and Anthony Bourdain's Myth-Making

• [29:18 - 34:55]
  • John Lennon became more mythic posthumously—painful for Paul.
  • Bourdain’s transformation into a cultural talisman:

    “He tapped into something... just authenticity. Like he is who he is... people from very different backgrounds will trust him.”

Monoculture, Nostalgia & the Documentary's Role

• [33:03 - 38:43]
  • Neville reflects on what remains of monoculture and the fate of shared cultural touchstones, linking Bourdain, SNL, and the shift from reportage to opinion in journalism.

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Making ‘Lorne’ – Inside the SNL Documentary

Gaining Access to Lorne Michaels

• [38:49 - 50:41]
  • Lorne is a "wizard of Oz" subject; not a natural narrator and intensely elusive:

    “He is not a narrator... he is the wizard of Oz who speaks in rhymes and riddles... you’re just trying to figure out what the hell that meant.”

  • Longtime conversations led to trust; Neville leveraged rare access:

    “He said you can be in any meeting. Sometimes you can shoot... I watched a lot of those meetings.”

Structure, Approach, and Navigating SNL Culture

• [50:50 - 54:35]
  • Neville wanted the film to be genuinely funny, mirroring SNL's spirit—with TV Funhouse cartoons and intentional nods to the show’s humor heritage.
  • On the three types of laughs in documentaries:
    1. Borrowed (funny archival clips)
    2. Found (naturally funny interview lines)
    3. Created (editorial/ironic humor)

    “I wanted all those funny gears working as much as I could.” – Neville

Objectivity and The Dangers of Method

• [53:56 - 56:44]
  • Neville embraces “method directing,” trying to channel his subject’s ethos—with a focus on understanding, not glorifying or condemning.
  • On critical moments (e.g., Sinead O’Connor, Trump):

    “Lorne doesn’t give clean answers to anything. He’s not wrestling with it.”

The Lorne Paradox: Power & Passivity

• [56:44 - 58:56]
  • Lorne is seen as both all-controlling and, in practice, incredibly focused on week-to-week survival:

    “People ascribe these grand designs... I think he’s way more in the trenches.”

SNL as a Reflection, Not a Statement

• [58:07 - 60:09]

  “SNL is just a reflection of the whole culture this week... his own point of view is kind of the last thing he wants to put on things.”

Challenges & Controversies: The Shane Gillis Firing

• [60:09 - 65:13]
  • Shane Gillis’s hiring and firing (over resurfaced racist podcast clips) hit Lorne particularly hard, especially the corporate interference:

    “I think the thing that hurt him the most is just having his hand slapped by the corporate bosses... less about the people and the politics.”

Who Replaces Lorne?

• [65:46 - 69:53]
  • There may not be a single successor:

    “There might be a couple of people to replace Lorne. Because Lorne has two jobs: managing down (cast & writers), and managing up (execs)... you need somebody with real gravitas.”

  • Names like Tina Fey or Seth Meyers are floated, but the real weight is in both external relationships and the show's culture.

The Show Runs on Lorne Time

• [71:56 - 72:01]

  “SNL’s built around Lorne’s vacation schedule... the show was built exactly around Lorne.”

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Fast Takes: Reflections on Fame, Genius, Masculinity, and Process

On Fame

• [73:56]

  “Fame’s boring. Fame is the least interesting thing about these people because, yeah, it’s the same story... genius is even generic in certain ways.”

On Genius

• [75:55 - 77:01]
  • Paul McCartney’s genius is situated in his talent, timing, and ability to collaborate:

    “His antenna was tuned out to what else was happening at the time.”

On Masculinity & Biographical Focus

• [77:06 - 79:29]
  • Neville often finds himself asking questions of himself through his (often male-driven) subjects, less out of design and more out of opportunity/historical distribution of fame:

    “I feel like they’re also films about myself.”

On the Creative Process

• [81:23 - 83:09]
  • He loves exploring and demystifying creative processes across fields, citing a designer friend’s "work decision tree"—every job must satisfy at least two of: make money, be fun, advance my art.

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Lightning Round – Notable Moments

• Best Living Doc Filmmaker: Errol Morris, Michael Moore, Ross McElwee (Sherman’s March).
• Bombing:

  “My first documentary... the LA Weekly wrote a review... and just trashed it... I remember the name, everything, exactly.”

• Book/Film That Made Him Cry:
  • Film: Train Dreams – “it was so beautiful... it’s not sadness, it’s goodness.”
• Best Advice:

  “If you end up making the film you set out to make, then you weren’t listening along the way.” – Al Maysles

• On Failure:

  “Try to fail. ... it means you’re trying something.”

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Highlighted Quotes

• “If you’re thinking about it, do not do it.” – Neville’s wife's advice on project selection [19:10]
• “Fame’s boring. Fame is the least interesting thing about these people.” – Neville [73:56]
• “He is the wizard of Oz who speaks in rhymes and riddles.” – Neville on Lorne Michaels [41:15]
• “His point of view is not having a point of view.” – Fox on Lorne Michaels [58:52]
• “If you end up making the film you set out to make, then you weren’t listening along the way.” – Al Maysles (quoted by Neville) [88:21]
• “I wanted the film to be funny. I really, really wanted the film to be funny.” – Neville on 'Lorne' [50:50]

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Key Timestamps

• 01:04 – Paul McCartney calls out Neville at a concert
• 02:59 – Gore Vidal interview story
• 06:12 – Neville’s mind-boggling recent filmography rundown
• 10:23 – How streaming changed documentaries
• 14:35 – On AI and algorithms shaping documentary content
• 16:34 – The reality of money in documentary filmmaking
• 25:43 – Paul McCartney’s relationship to 'Ram' & lasting critical wounds
• 33:12 – Documentaries and monoculture
• 38:49 – Making a documentary about Lorne Michaels: process & access
• 53:56 – On objectivity, method directing, and documentary philosophy
• 60:09 – Shane Gillis, SNL controversy, and show neutrality
• 65:46 – Who replaces Lorne?
• 73:56 – Fame, genius, masculinity – what Neville has learned
• 81:23 – Lessons on the creative process

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Memorable Moments

• Paul McCartney forcibly raising the lights to shout out Neville in a crowd and feigning that Neville needed to sing the next song.
• Gore Vidal ominously chilling an interview with: “I had my rage to keep me warm.”
• The behind-the-scenes account of Lorne Michaels’ elusive, cryptic style and how Neville had to “capture this rare creature on camera.”
• Explaining SNL’s entire structure aligns to Lorne Michaels’ personal calendar and lifestyle.
• The “three types of laughs” theory in documentary filmmaking.
• Neville’s honest talk about the economics of documentary and the creative rationale behind what he chooses and turns down.

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Conclusion

Morgan Neville’s illuminating conversation is a master class in creative process, documentary ethos, and pop culture myth-making. His stories, reflections, and candid insights highlight both the challenges and the magic of capturing larger-than-life figures on film, as well as the tension between art and commerce, passion and packaging, and truth and myth in the modern documentary landscape. A must-listen for fans of pop culture, documentary diehards, and creative process obsessives alike.

Transcript

[Morgan Neville]

Every actor, and everybody's like, I like documentaries. Let's open up a documentary department.

[Jesse David Fox]

This is a good one. I am Jesse David Fox, senior writer of Vulture and author of comedy book. My guest this week is Morgan Neville, easily the most accomplished, prolific pop culture documentarian alive. He's best known for such films as 2018's Oscar nominated Won't yout Be My Neighbor and 2014's 20ft From Stardom, for which he won both an Oscar and a Grammy. We talk about Lorne, his new documentary about Lorne Michaels, man on the Run, his new documentary about Paul McCartney, as well as two of my favorite of his documentaries, Steve, his Steve Martin doc, and Roadrunner, his documentary about Auntie Bourdain. The thing about Morgan's career is I am super jealous of it. So here is Morgan Neville. I'm here with Morgan Neville. Thank you for joining me.

[Morgan Neville]

Thanks for having me.

[Jesse David Fox]

So the first question we ask is, what is the funniest, strangest, or most fascinating thing that happened to you this week?

[Morgan Neville]

I have a movie coming out this week, so everything is a little surreal. But I did. I had, like, a peak life experience last week.

[Jesse David Fox]

Sure.

[Morgan Neville]

So maybe I should talk about that.

[Jesse David Fox]

That's probably better.

[Morgan Neville]

This is my one chance to tell this story. I recently did a documentary with a guy named Paul McCartney.

[Jesse David Fox]

I've heard of him.

[Morgan Neville]

And he played these shows in LA last week, these kind of two smallish concerts. And. And I got a ticket and I went. And he played a wing song, jet. And at the end of it, he said, has anybody seen man on the Run, which is my documentary? And I said, yeah, that's cool. He said, it was directed by Morgan Neville. And I was like, that's cool. And he's like, I think he's here. And he goes, can you turn up the lights? And they turn off the spotlight on Paul. And he's like, morgan, where are you? And I stand up and I'm like, I can't believe this is happening. He's like, you're gonna have to sing the next one.

[Jesse David Fox]

And.

[Morgan Neville]

And then he went back into playing, and I just thought, it's the greatest call out.

[Jesse David Fox]

I was like, I literally thought he was gonna bring you on stage. And I was like, I was starting to get really. I'll do it.

[Morgan Neville]

I'll do it. I'll play guitar.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

So that was a peak life experience I just had.

[Jesse David Fox]

That's beautiful. So you've had to start a lot of interviews in your career?

[Morgan Neville]

Yes.

[Jesse David Fox]

What question do you like to start a sit down with.

[Morgan Neville]

I don't have a set question, but I. It's interesting. When I prepare for interviews, I usually do a lot of preparation, then I distill it all to a list of words, and then I never look at it when I do the interview. And I generally just try and think about the first question. A question I've used a lot starting an interview is, if I'm making a film about your life, what type of a movie is it? Give me a genre. Is it a comedy? Is it a drama? Action film. And I think trying to see how people see their own lives.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah, that's good.

[Morgan Neville]

It's a way to start gonna steal that question.

[Jesse David Fox]

Can you think of an interview that started off not even with the first? At some point early on, started off on the wrong foot and you had a recall. Oh, my God.

[Morgan Neville]

I mean, I did a documentary called Best of Enemies about these debates between Gore Vidal and William Buckley. My first job out of college was working as a fact checker for Gore Vidal.

[Jesse David Fox]

Amazing.

[Morgan Neville]

At the Nation magazine. A incredibly thankless job, not only because of the pay, but because my job was to tell him he was slightly wrong, which Gore Vidal, if you know anything about Gore Vidal, he did not like to be told he was slightly wrong. So years later, I want to make this documentary. So Buckley has died, but Gore was alive, living in the Hollywood Hills, as he said in his Cedars Sinai years of his life. And I went to this Spanish mansion up in the Hollywood Hills, and we go, and he has this kind of man servant who's like a hot Erich Von Stroheim from Sunset Boulevard. So we go in the living room, we set up, and then Gorr's in a wheelchair, and this guy picks Gorr up and, like, takes him down the stairs into the living room. And we're still setting up, and Gore won't make eye contact and won't speak to us. He's just down, just frosty. And so we're setting up and we're going and we're getting ready. And my producer, by way of making conversation, says, you know, I understand that you served in the Aleutian Islands during World War II. And my father did, too. And he said, you know, he could never get warm, it was so cold up there. And Gore, for the first words he says, he looks up and looks straight into the camera and said, I had my rage to keep me warm. And the rest of the interview pretty much went like that.

[Jesse David Fox]

You got it.

[Morgan Neville]

You know, we had this two and a half hour interview that he just it was horrible. Yeah, because we were asking him about Wayne Buckley and the idea that he and William Buckley would be in the same sentence offended him.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yet he agreed to do the duck.

[Morgan Neville]

Yet he agreed. I mean, Gore Vidal famously said, the only two things you never turn down in life are sex and television. You know, so. But I will say after we finish the interview, we're all shell shocked. He takes, carries Gore up in the wheelchair, and as we're about to leave, he, the servant comes and says, Mr. Vidal would like to know if you'd like to have cocktails. And we said, yes, we need a drink. And it's surreal enough. Let's go. So we are ushered upstairs into his bedroom and he's in bed and he says, sit down. And there are no chairs.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

So we sit on the edge of his bed and he wheels in a. The servant wheels in a drink cart and serves us cocktails. And then for the next 90 minutes, we have the most charming conversation. He is a different person. He is just amazing and charming. And it was like, oh. And then I think he finally kind of understood what we were trying to do with the film.

[Jesse David Fox]

So you should have started with cocktails.

[Morgan Neville]

Yeah, we should have started with cocktails. Needless to say, I didn't use any of that interview in the documentary.

[Jesse David Fox]

We got the story out of it, so it's worth it. So in terms of releases since 2023, I'm going to have to read this. You have directed this Is Not a House, Bono and the Edge, A Sort of Homecoming with David Letterman, the Saint of Second Chances, Steve Martin, a documentary in two pieces, piece by piece, which was the PHARRELL Doc, Breakdown, 1975, which is a film about the film revolution, the mid-1970s, man on the Run. And Lorne, you are also the producer on the 12th victim, art of Everybody. Thank you very much. Which is the doc about Andy Kaufman, what's Next The Future, which is a TV series you did with Bill Gates. Leap of Faith, 4 SNL, 50 documentaries, BTS Army, Forever Young and Everyman. The Lives and Times of Peter Asher. Am I missing any?

[Morgan Neville]

Jesus Christ? When you put it that way.

[Jesse David Fox]

How. How does someone do that?

[Morgan Neville]

Well, I didn't make all those in three years. I probably made all those over six years. Sure, sure.

[Jesse David Fox]

But even six years.

[Morgan Neville]

Yeah, it's, it's, it's crazy because it's not an ever.

[Jesse David Fox]

Like, if you looked at a different three year period, it's not going to be radically different than that.

[Morgan Neville]

It goes in waves.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

You know, and I'M actually not making a film right now for the first time in eight years, just because of what you just listed. I've. I'm taking a breath to find something I'm. I'm in love with doing because I did so many things. I mean, the reason I made so many of those things was, of course I want to make a Steve Martin documentary or, you know, or an SNL project. You know, I've been an SNL fan forever. Or McCartney. You know, I've been a Beatles fanatic my entire life, and that was always kind of the mountaintop for me of like, when am I gonna ever do anything about a Beatle? And I always loved Paul. I will say I put so much love and care into all these things.

[Jesse David Fox]

This is not saying that any of these are bad.

[Morgan Neville]

No, I just literally.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's literally like, how does a person, like, on the most basic level of, like, when you're in the thick of whatever, the most thick period of doing this, what is your week like?

[Morgan Neville]

I. The other thing that helps is a lot of these are more archival documentaries. So I've made documentaries where you're traveling the globe. That is hard. Just hard on your family, hard on everything. Archive films. You know, I don't have to travel as much. And part of how I work in my office is I have a bunch of edit bays and I go and visit every editor multiple times a day and spend time with them. And it's almost like short order cooking. It's like, okay, you keep that warm there and here's some ideas. And I react to that. And then I'll be back at the end of the day and we'll come back. And so I feel like I can be very productive that way. But also I feel like the meat of every one of those projects happened not at the exact same. You know, so part of it is. And some of these. Some films are like writing a novel and some are like making a sketch. So certain things are just like, let's not overthink it. You know, it's kind of the nature of what they are. Like the YouTube project I did with Letterman, like, we did that whole thing in three months, which is crazy.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

You know, and. But sometimes after you spend two and a half, three years working on a film, you're like, I just want to do something and not overthink.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

Just pure instinct.

[Jesse David Fox]

Film edit.

[Morgan Neville]

Do it. Film edit. And it's coming out in a couple months and bam.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

And I also have a lot of great people who I've worked with for years and years and years. So my editors, who I write with essentially, and producers and everybody else, so that's a village. But I. I am very hands on, on everything.

[Jesse David Fox]

Again, that's what's curious about how much of it is a reflection of the state of documentary and like, because I feel like, let's say it's hard to remember years, 10 years ago, the streamers, like, we need a million documentaries just to fill it out. I imagine that time you had a lot of projects. What is it? So talk about how you've rid such a wave.

[Morgan Neville]

Road, road ridden, ridden away. The. I mean, it's. I've been making documentaries for 33 years, so a long time. And the first 15 years, nobody cared not just about my films, they didn't care about documentary. And so I've seen many changes from the home video. You could sell home video rights and stitch together whatever to get something made. And that went away. And then seeing the kind of rise and fall of kind of what streaming has done to documentary, I think changes started, I mean, really when Netflix started streaming 2012, 13, whenever it was 14. And then there was kind of 2018, I would say was kind of the documentary high water mark.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

You know, and not just that was the year once you beat My Neighbor came out, but that was also the year of the year free solo, three identical strangers, RBG. I mean, a bunch of documentaries that made $20 million, you know, which is unheard of before or since. But after all that, then it just became a bit of a mania where every, shall we say, every actor and everybody's like, I like documentaries. Let's open up a documentary department and we're going to hire a documentary development exec. And it was like, what are you all doing? Like, just everybody suddenly had a documentary department.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. It was like. It felt like right before when. I don't remember when making the Murder was. Because making the Murder did feel like

[Morgan Neville]

then that was probably 26, 15, 16.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's like, so then there was that. And just felt like every media company was like, there just is a desire for this type of thing we can kind of do easily. And it became a different thing. Documentaries started feeling less like a film entity and more like, not necessarily like TV shows, but like this weird middle content space.

[Morgan Neville]

Well, I mean, it's part of what's happening, I think, with a lot of content, which is like, is everything becoming tv? Yeah, you know, and not everything is, but a lot is, you know, and I think, you know, the viewing habits. I Have talked to execs. You know, normally if I'm working on a film, I would do a screening and have people watch it and get notes and write it up. And I had one exec say, oh, well, that's not how people watch. You know, in other words, oh, if you put people in a room and have their undivided attention, your bar is different from what our viewer bar is. I don't want to hear that.

[Jesse David Fox]

I literally, it's truly like, I would not be surprised if certain large streaming services are like, we need to have screenings where people are allowed to have their phones.

[Morgan Neville]

Yeah. I mean, essentially, that's what they're saying. Yeah. You know, I feel like those aren't the films I make, you know, but

[Jesse David Fox]

then, you know, someone's going to come around who goes, I'm going to make movies for people have phones.

[Morgan Neville]

And then they're a lot of people doing that.

[Jesse David Fox]

They really figure out the formula of how loud to mix dialogue at different times.

[Morgan Neville]

I mean, this is what AI is coming for, you know, in all ways, which is. It's not, you know, to me. And we're going down a dark, a dark wormhole here. But the problem with AI is that I think it's a problem of taste. If you don't care if something's great, if you just want something to just be there. Yeah, AI can probably do that. You know, that is.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yes, that is exactly what I feel like. People harp on generative AI and you, you were famously part of the harping. One of the earliest cases of the harping, when you used AI to help Anthony Bourdain read things that he's written. And. But what is really the thing that no one pays attention to is how AI has slowly shifted the bar of like, what people expect out of content. So it's made our expectations lower, so it's then easier for AI to meet set expectations.

[Morgan Neville]

Well, and essentially, when algorithm is what these companies have been doing from the beginning, that is AI, people think of AI as one thing. There's been AI in mix rooms for 25 years. It's a bunch of different things. But what the algorithm does and what it essentially is telling everybody is what your minute by minute real viewing habits are. And the problem with it is that if everything then gets reduced to a lowest common denominator of like, okay, what just captures the largest eyeballs per minute, per dollar, per whatever, that has nothing to do with quality or passion.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's only attention. It's only and good was sometimes people think maybe if things Are good people pay attention. And that does not seem like the current mob.

[Morgan Neville]

No, I mean, there's an aspect of like, are we all just going to end up with America's Funniest Home Videos again? Or whatever. It's like that's everything is just, oh,

[Jesse David Fox]

I think there's lots of people's TikToks or Instagram feeds that are essentially just nonstop. America's Funniest Home Video.

[Morgan Neville]

I mean, it's all the same thing. Again, I see a lot of documentaries that essentially I say, okay, would this have been a 2020 segment 30 years ago? Or maybe if you're quality, it's a 60 minute segment 20 years ago, 30 years ago. But they're the same tropes that have been around forever. They're just kind of packaged and maybe shot better, but they're the same. I mean, that's so much of what true crime is, you know, I mean, those tropes have been around forever.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. However you want to answer this question, how much money do you make?

[Morgan Neville]

Oh.

[Jesse David Fox]

Or have whatever way you prefer. But I'm just. This is the goal. I've been starting to ask this because I do think they're. Especially after the strikes, there's a tendency to be like, well, they're all zillionaires and they don't need to work because they made one movie and they got $20 million for it. I want to create a culture of just sort of like, these are people who have jobs that are.

[Morgan Neville]

No, I've been a scrappy independent filmmaker for 33 years. I've never taken. I've never done overhead deal. I've never taken investors, which is unusual, I would say, but I just value my independence as a filmmaker. And some years I have had years where I've like made pretty much nothing. And then other years where, you know, because it's. It's not a normal job, you know, so maybe something comes in. I would say the idea of getting back end on movies is so rare, you know, 20ft from stardom. I never saw a penny a back end. It won an Oscar. Never saw a penny a back end. And you know, the company I made it for was sold to another company. And it's just. And then other people say, well, come sue us if you want your money. And like, okay, you know, so I've had all those experiences. I've done way better than I ever thought I would do as a documentary filmmaker. But I also have turned down a lot of jobs that would have made me a lot of money. Because I did not get into this to make money, because for 20 years I didn't make money doing this. So it's a great reminder to say, I do this because I love this job, but I did not get into this to make. To make money. That was not the intention, you know, And I. And increasingly I think about that now. You know, as I get older, it's like, time is the important thing. So it's like, I just want to work on stuff that I. That I love. But I will also say, for somebody who's on the higher end of established veteran documentary filmmakers, I think we make way less than other people at the top of their professions make. In a way, they're like, oh, so really this is how much somebody who's the kind of top of this profession, in a way, that's all they make. So I'm not complaining, but I'm just saying, yeah, we're not getting rich.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, you're not making what Christopher Nolan is making,

[Morgan Neville]

not even the caterer

[Jesse David Fox]

you mentioned turning things down. And I think, I imagine, as you said, the way you say yes to project is probably pretty obvious. Paul McCartney was like, can you do this right? Can you think of an example of how. Of when you're turning things down, what is the thing that there's other people that are of a Paul McCartney ilk that might want to do or whatever. What drives you to say no to a thing beyond?

[Morgan Neville]

There are two types of ways projects happen. One is I think of something and I try and get it made. And the other is just stuff coming across the transom. And a lot of times they're not great, you know, and they often will have money attached, like, we just want to make it. And, you know, the best films, and most of the films I've made are things that kind of instantaneously I just say, yeah, I want to do that. And I know that's true. Occasionally there are films where I'm kind of struggling with the decision. My wife is very good at saying, if you're thinking about it, do not do it. Do not do it. You know, and increasingly, I. I agree with her. Again, like, I didn't get into this business to have an. An empire.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

You know, And I know I've kind of always kept my company lean, like a boutique. That's how I think of it, you know, and it's like, I just want to make sure everything we make is great and kind of everything else will take care of itself, you know, And I think because of that, a lot of People have approached me. I mean, the Steve Martin or Paul McCartney or Lorne were projects that came to me that I. And came to me alone, you know, and that's amazing. You know, I can't imagine for the

[Jesse David Fox]

type of docs you do, I can't imagine a better scenario than those people being like, tell the story. Well, those are. It's interesting, those. You bring up those. Obviously the most recent ones. But I believe the Pharrell doc was the first one that the artist was an executive producer on. And then I think Paul is an executive producer on that. How does that change the process or consideration for you?

[Morgan Neville]

I mean, the Pharrell project, it's. It was such a massive collaboration. You know, he was writing songs for it. You know, it's so it's like the rules that. That film we were making.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

Like, nobody had ever made a film like that before. And it's so. It's. It's a documentary, but it's also a biopic and it's a musical and it's an animated feature. And yeah, it just was. It took years and years of work from all of us. He was part of the team of making it, but also, like, very hands off, you know, editorially, you know, I mean, I finished a whole cut in storyboard that I then showed it to him because I need him to write songs for me, you know, but he totally got it. I mean, I'm trying to think of any real substantive issues we had with it. And we didn't really. I mean, the McCartney project, I will blame all the other directors who came before me. Martin Scorsese, Ron Howard, Peter Jackson, they all gave EP credits.

[Jesse David Fox]

These are easy people to blame.

[Morgan Neville]

So I will say there was a precedent that had been set that I stepped into. And I said, you know, this is not a good look. And it's like, but this is the precedent.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

So then I get. I blame them. But that said, I did not change a frame of that film for Paul. Yeah, not a single frame.

[Jesse David Fox]

I asked because, like, it is. Because as I'm sure you've noticed, it has become the way these things are happening where a artist of a certain age or a professional basketball player of certain age was like, I want to make a documentary of this, and I am. My production company is producing it or some version of it. Could this be an issue? Do you feel like this issue. How do you feel about.

[Morgan Neville]

Yeah, it is. I mean, I. And I'm not just saying this to be self serving, but I feel like if people come to me, it's because of who I am as a filmmaker. And that gives me a certain amount of leverage to say, let me do my job. And for the most part, I've been very lucky with that. But I also can smell projects that I've come and have meetings on and I just see they want to do like, it's like a brand exercise for them. And it was like, run away, run away, like some big interesting people.

[Jesse David Fox]

And.

[Morgan Neville]

And then I've seen the films they've. That have come out of those and I'm so glad I didn't work on them.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

You know, it's like with music, for instance, you. You need each other. It's like one of the things about music films is you need their art to make your film. So you are in business together. Somehow you have to be. Which is different than making a film about somebody who. You don't need underlying rights.

[Jesse David Fox]

I guess I didn't think about that. You don't have to pay for music in a documentary about a person because assuming the person wants their music in, or do you have to.

[Morgan Neville]

You always pay.

[Jesse David Fox]

You still pay.

[Morgan Neville]

Always pay. You might pay less if you're working with them, but, you know, licensing Beatles songs for the McCartney documentary, We Paid. We got a good rate, you know, but you always pay. And because they have other partners and publishing companies, so even if you're paying a more nominal fee, but with music, I mean, it's part of what actually made a film like 20ft from stardom so difficult was. I mean, it was kind of the most difficult part of that film was that the music was everywhere. They didn't write any of it. They weren't the artists on any of it. Nobody owed it to them to give us those songs.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, they don't have publishing or the recording, right?

[Morgan Neville]

No, we've had nothing. And our big tool with that was just guilt of like, here are the people that made you money and records forever, you know, now pay it back. You know, if only you could have

[Jesse David Fox]

told them the movie was gonna win an Oscar, I bet it'd be.

[Morgan Neville]

No, nobody believed. I mean, we actually came up with a really unique way of charging song, you know, kind of a tiered system based on how well the film did. If nobody saw the film, it wasn't going to be that much, but the film did well enough that everybody actually got. The publishers got back end on those songs, but still not that much. I remember, you know, hearing different people complain to me of like, had I known this would have been such a Hit, you know.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, it's a relative. It's still a relative hit.

[Morgan Neville]

It's still a relative hit. That film made $5 million, which is so crazy.

[Jesse David Fox]

I have very specific Paul questions because I have not spent time with him. But one of the things I've noticed about Paul is his relationship to the album. Ram is so like, I love the album Ram. It's one of my favorite things a Beatle has done, including the Beatles records. But he seems to be unable to process that people like it because. Is it because of how the experience, how it was received? Like, I'm sure you talked about it. What is his relationship to Ram? Could you figure out a way to make him understand what this album is to people who are not him? He.

[Morgan Neville]

It's a work in progress. I mean, that's the interesting thing is, like, Paul's still processing this stuff. The first time I sat down to talk about the film, he started telling me the names of music critics who wrote bad reviews in 1971 and 72. And he said he would picture them in their little, you know, attic desks writing these mean screeds, you know. And, yeah, I'm not going to name names, but I remember names he was giving me, you know, like, it stung. And going back and reading all the reviews of Ram, it's kind of brutal for a whole bunch of reasons we talk about in the film and otherwise, which is it was so out of sync with its time. Rolling Stone. We quote that one review written by John Landau, now Bruce Springsteen's manager and partner. But now that album is top 500 Rolling Stone album of all time. So I think he lost the battle, won the war, but I think he's still not sure of that.

[Jesse David Fox]

Is he just. When you are a Beatle and you essentially reach the pinnacle of all type of success, when you have the most popular thing that ever existed and also changed, like, invent a genre, like, that's your standard of what success is. Yeah. Is it why he can't understand cult success? Like, it doesn't even register as a thing that can happen.

[Morgan Neville]

At the time, it wasn't cult success.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I say it's like a. Ram

[Morgan Neville]

sold a lot of records, too, you know, it's not. Not like nobody bought it. And Uncle Albert, Admiral Halsey and Another Day, I think, were the two singles off Ram. I think Uncle Albert went to number one. So it's not commercial success. It had commercial success. It just was reviled by critics, which is a different thing. Yeah, that's kind of A deeper, more personal. I mean, a lot of it was personal. And again, magazines like Rolling Stone, where it was like a cottage industry to pit John against Paul, pick camps. So much of that was driven by the music press, too.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, it's so interesting, him and John, because for the most part, in the doc, you track it and seems like before John died, they have a certain sort of piece together. But recently, Vanity Fair published an interview they did in the past where Paul's just, like, complaining about Jon. And specifically, he tells the story of yelling at Jan Wenner about how Jon was gonna be inducted in the Rock and Roll hall of Fame before him as a solo artist. And in it being, like, somewhere along the way. Cause John's a martyr. I'm the Beatle number two, and John's number one in Conversations. Does it feel like it's still a thing that he wrestles with,

[Morgan Neville]

that part of it? I don't think so, but I think this would be the sequel to man on the Run. But in the wake of John's death, I think for at least a decade, John became the ultimate martyr and sanctification of John Lennon. And John was many, many things. A genius, a poet, an artist. Not a saint. Not a saint. You know, I think nobody who knew John would say that. So I think there was just the kind of flattening of John. John, you know, just becomes this untouchable deity. And it was incredibly frustrating for Paul, of course, And I think he grappled with that. I think over time, that's all kind of washed out. But that took a long time to process.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I was gonna ask about it later, but I will ask about Anthony Born A Now, because it is a similar thing. Like, obviously, I was a fan of his show, but since his death, he's become mythic.

[Morgan Neville]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you have a sense as a person who made a movie about what is about him that has become larger than. It's not like it was a huge show.

[Morgan Neville]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

It was on, like, a deep cable network show. And then obviously they're streaming it. But he's become outsized in a way that I think. I don't know if anyone. Like, I was not expecting him to be sort of a symbol of something.

[Morgan Neville]

It's amazing how much he means to people, you know, and so many people when I was making the film, but after the film came out and people still who talk about Bourdain, it's because he. He was such a unique figure in that way. Like where. What. The place he Occupied in our culture of, you know, having one foot in like downtown New York, Post punk poet, chefs. Kind of the outsider punk rock guy, but also just an amazing observer. I mean, the other thing, you know, when people ask Tony what he did, he said, I'm a writer. And he was. I mean, what his show is, is. Is in a way a format for his writing. I mean, if you watch an episode of his, as I did, and take out the voiceover, it's just a kind of glum looking guy walking around a lot of beautiful places. The writing is the thing that elevates it. But I think it's somebody who just seems to kind of not be selling you anything, not be buying anybody's bullshit. Just kind of like a, you know, he tapped into something. I mean, I also made a film about Johnny Cash and there's a similar kind of just authenticity. Like he's just, he is who he is. And no matter what we may disagree about, like, we trust this guy. People from very different backgrounds will trust him.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's. I mean, the even thing about him and John is like, they were symbols of like, idealism for generations and then they die at a time where then cynicism, like, is at a rise. Like, if you look at like when John dies, It's like the 80s and the 80s is famous as like one of the most cynical times in America. And then I, I talk about like when Bourdain died, it felt like the end of the Obama era and so much. It's like after that, it's like we live in whatever this current time is.

[Morgan Neville]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And I think people, because it's hard to process all of that, they put it onto like he was this guy and then like he was holding it all together. And I do think he uniquely represented, he was trusted by what now thinks of disparate groups of people.

[Morgan Neville]

I mean, it's. These are like, you know, so many of the films I've made are about where culture connects us.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

You know, so many of my films, you know, and it's something I've always been interested in. You know, part of it is, you know, I started my career in left wing journalism and I, I felt like we. It was a place where people didn't just preach the converted, they argued with the converted. And I, it just drove me a little insane. And so I kind of. I've always wanted to make films for people I don't agree with which and tried to look at stories about how we see each other. I mean, to me, what culture is, is how we see ourselves and how we see other people. And even, you know, even now, I've been. I think about this a lot, you know, especially in the moment we're in now, you know, and some of these, you could say, are. You know, a lot of these are stories of kind of what's left of the monoculture. What's left of the last bits of, you know, Bourdain is, again, one of these last things, threads of a monoculture. You know, when people watched, you know, cable TV. Even today, 10 years, you know. Yeah. Ten years later, it's changed so much. So I think there's that aspect of it. I mean, of course, what people put on to people like Tony or John is unfair and not logical. It's emotional, you know, But I get what the emotional thing they're reacting to is. Here's somebody who spoke to me, who, in a way, saw me or I saw myself in them, you know, and wasn't trying to sell me something. That they just. They were authentically themselves. Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And I think they become like talismans of authenticity that people try to wear.

[Morgan Neville]

Exactly. Making the T shirts.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. The other. I mean, especially John, the. I don't know if you know this, but there are a lot of people who have conspiracies around Tony's death. Have you learned this? I don't know if it came up

[Morgan Neville]

only a tiny bit, but it's much

[Jesse David Fox]

more recently because of the nature of. I bring it up because it connects to the Paul is dead phenomenon. Feels like an early version of a thing that now is everything.

[Morgan Neville]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Can you talk about that? And sort of how now everything is Paul's dead?

[Morgan Neville]

I mean, Paul's Dead is one of the first kind of big conspiracy theories. And part of it was. I mean, the Beatles were so scrutinized and people just, again, wanted to write and think about them. I mean, the whole Paul is dead thing started, I believe, as kind of a. Almost a joke from a DJ at the University of Michigan radio station, I think. And it was kind of done tongue in cheek, and then it kind of grew. And then the thing I never realized until I really dug into the McCartney film was that the moment it exploded, it had been there for months or maybe longer, but it exploded at the moment Paul went away to Scotland. And right when John had said he wanted to break up the band and when there was a vacuum.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

And so people suddenly are saying, well, he must be dead because he wasn't to be found anywhere. And so. And again, I even, you know, I Went back and read all those articles and even, even the people that were writing those things, it was all pretty tongue in cheek. Like, I don't know how much anybody actually believed Paul was dead. It just felt like this is kind of a fun thing.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's like an early meme thing to talk about. Yeah. And. But thankfully for that time, for the most part, it did not have the mechanisms we currently have for things to then take over.

[Morgan Neville]

We're suddenly, you know, AI could create all kinds of evidence of these things. You know, our brains are certainly wired to believe things and believe things we want to believe. You know, I mean, it's part of what makes us human and part of what makes us fallible, you know, is that and conspiracy theory. I've always been really interested in the mechanisms of that, you know, and I. I do feel like we live in an era where everything is. So we get to select so much of our own truth about things. And I even see myself being algorithmically pandered to and just, you know, I've deleted most social media for most devices, you know, and I haven't been on Twitter or anything like that in a decade, you know, so I try, you know, I. Come again. I started as a journalist, you know, I am an old school. I love stories about journalism and I love that kind of deep work. I mean, what I've also seen, a part of what even a film like Best of Enemies is about is the transition. You know, we called all journalism, but what we've seen is a transition from actual reportage to opinion.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

And suddenly opinion's way cheaper and gets people way more riled up. And you don't. You can just have it everywhere and nobody does work. I mean, and even though I subscribe and read a lot of people on substack and I'm glad it's there. And I like giving money to writers. I like. But so much of it is just opinion and I like real reporting, you know, so that's the thing that just is been getting smaller and smaller that I keep missing.

[Jesse David Fox]

So I want to talk about Lauren. Yeah, our friend Lauren. Well, let's start with this. Do you have an impression from spending so much time with him?

[Morgan Neville]

I can't do it. I can't do it. It's funny. Everybody does Lauren imitation except for John Mulaney and John, who's spent as much time with Lauren as anybody. I feel like I would just be doing a bad imitation.

[Jesse David Fox]

Everyone does. Other than James Austin Johnson. I don't know if you. His Lorne is Lorne Now.

[Morgan Neville]

Yes. Well, he's so good. Like, his Dylan through the decades is genius. And Lorne now is different. And Lorne's voice, having tried to record Lorne has a strange voice that's hard to. You know, it just becomes like. It's guttural.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yes.

[Morgan Neville]

And. And as we were shooting the film, oftentimes he wouldn't wear a microphone, which at a place like SNL's crazy. So we ended up. We would go in, when we would shoot, and we'd put a dozen microphones in his office and we'd hide microphones. I mean, it was a crazy sound job.

[Jesse David Fox]

I've spoken to Lorne once.

[Morgan Neville]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And the thing that people will tell you if they're not on the record. But I can say it because I've spoken to him. He talks weird.

[Morgan Neville]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

Now, in the past, he talked pretty straightforward, but now he talks how I describe. He's sort of. It's like a. You're in this sort of, like, loop, and out of nowhere, he'll just throw out things, but not give you context. So he'll say first names. Yeah. You'll be like. You're just talking. And we'll have Jim playing Biden, and you're like, oh, so now you're telling

[Morgan Neville]

me,

[Jesse David Fox]

what do you do in that situation?

[Morgan Neville]

Well, it's funny because my normal process.

[Jesse David Fox]

Did you know that ahead of time? Well, and then what do you do?

[Morgan Neville]

I'd interviewed him once before.

[Jesse David Fox]

Oh, for Steve.

[Morgan Neville]

For Steve. But I. So. Something I do at the beginning of every film, if it's with a living subject, is I sit down and I just. With a tape recorder, and we just talk. So, you know, with McCartney or Steve Martin or other people, just. And the McCartney ended up becoming all. Just those conversations, you know. And so it kind of grew. But there's like an intimacy and a lack of, you know, time doesn't matter. We could just talk. But I want to see how you see your own story and build a rapport and all that. So I went to Lorne's office, the tape recorder. And Lorne is a fascinating conversationalist. He tells you he just an amazing jukebox of anecdotes.

[Jesse David Fox]

Sure. Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

But what I realized is, oh, Lorne can't tell his own story. Like, he's not. It's not that he's even an unreliable narrator. He's not a narrator. You know, he is the wizard of Oz who speaks in, you know, rhymes and riddles, and you're just trying to figure out what the hell that meant. So in the beginning, I said, oh, this isn't something where he and I talk for hours and hours and hours and hours. And he kind of lays it all out and walks me through his, you know, emotional state at every time. So we have this good rapport going. And it's strange because this film, I never actually pitched him doing a film about him. And he never said, yes, I want you to make a film about me. But somehow this film got made.

[Jesse David Fox]

Was it connected to the four FNL docs?

[Morgan Neville]

So this film was supposed to be 50 years SNL, five documentaries. This was supposed to be. Makes more sense. That's what I pitched. And I mean, I'll tell you the story of how this came together. I mean, I got a call from Katie Hochmeier at NBC late night saying, would you meet with Loren to talk about. This is three plus years ago. Talk about SNL50 doing something documentary about SNL50. So I meet at the Polo Lounge in LA Classic. Lauren's only half an hour late and we have a great lunch, but we're talking about Mike Nichols and we're talking about, you know, all kinds of things.

[Jesse David Fox]

You know, I can imagine he's like, and so you'll do the docs?

[Morgan Neville]

Yeah. So then he said, and I hadn't figured out, I more wanted to hear what he wanted. So then I said, well, I have some ideas. And he said, well, why don't you come? Next week's a show week. Come and Friday night, meet me and tell me your ideas. So next week, Friday night, 9:00pm, meeting at Lorne's office. And I go in, I think I'm meeting with Lorne, but there are 16 people in his office and it's all the senior writers, producers, and Lorne. And he says, okay, tell us your ideas. So I pitch and I had like a dozen different ideas. And it was like, the cowbell sketch could be one. And at some point I said, you know, there could be a documentary about you, Lauren. I think that would be really fascinating. And anyway, and so I go through all these ideas and I finish, I sit down on the couch next to Lauren and he doesn't say anything. And I said, so, what do you think? And he turns to his producer in the corner, Caroline, and says, caroline, what'd you think? And she's like the kid that doesn't want to get called out in class. And she. So I think there were some good ideas there. Yeah. And she like tosses the hot potato to Steve Higgins or whoever in that room. And they were all kind of non committally positive. And then the meeting breaks up and we all leave. And I'm standing there with Katie Hockmire. And I was like, what just happened? She said, oh, no, he likes you. We're doing it.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's just like how people get cast on the show.

[Morgan Neville]

Exactly. It's like, I had that experience. I had that experience. But we didn't know which ones we were making. I thought, oh, I'll direct one of these documentaries for SNL50. But then word came back like Lorne would be interested in doing a documentary about himself. And then I said, well, if that's going to happen, it can't have anything to do with Lorne or Broadway Video or it has to be totally separate. And so it kind of broke off at that point and we ended up making it with Focus Features. And Lorne hasn't seen the film, so I don't know if he'll ever see the film. We have a premiere tonight. He may or may not sit through. I don't know.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's show week. It's a show week, right?

[Morgan Neville]

It is a show week.

[Jesse David Fox]

What day is today?

[Morgan Neville]

Thursday. He said Thursday night was the best night of the week to do something.

[Jesse David Fox]

Did you do entire premiere around his schedule?

[Morgan Neville]

Yeah, of course, of course.

[Jesse David Fox]

You'll probably stop by the party.

[Morgan Neville]

He's definitely coming to have his picture taken. Yes, I know that. Oh, 100%. And I know, you know, Keenan's doing an introduction with me tonight. And, you know, it should be fun. Yeah, you should come. But so it just became this thing that. And then it was. The idea was, well, all these things are hitting around SNL50 because this became a more elaborate, deeper dive. We're like, well, maybe it comes out at the back side at the end of the SNL50 stuff. And then I quickly realized, like, that was a terrible idea because everybody would be so sick of SNL at that moment and everybody would have written their articles about it. And then I thought, well, maybe it would come out in the actual 50th anniversary, which would have been October of last year of 2025. But then Fooocus just thought even more time would be good. So now we're coming out 14 months, 15 months after SNL 50. So who knows about timing, but it just grew into its own thing.

[Jesse David Fox]

So you have a subject who cannot tell his own story. And it is a story that has been told in different forms a million times. Books. There's a Lorne book came out last year. How do you decide what you're going to. What story you're going to tell, how you're going to tell it, that it will be your take on this.

[Morgan Neville]

Well, again, in the beginning, it's like reporting.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

You know, it's like, start talking to people, start shooting. The thing Lorne did is he said you could. You can be in any meeting. Sometimes you can shoot in a meeting, but you can't shoot in every meeting. But you can shoot in some meetings. Meaning part of it had to do, I will say a lot with the host. And, you know, being a host on SNL is a very vulnerable position to be in. Not everybody wanted cameras in those rooms, but a lot of people did and agreed. You know, I think we shot maybe over 11 different episodes. But I watched a lot of those meetings, you know, and part of it was just actually seeing how the sausage is made and kind of seeing Lorne in those rooms, hearing Lorne be funny. I mean, stuff that you normally people don't see or hear and just kind of that. And then, you know, the incredible world of people around Lauren who owe many of them their careers to Lauren, you know, plus people at the show, you know, so it's. On the one hand, it's weird to interview people about their boss.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

Not, you know, and certain people, I think, had a lot of a. Kind of like. Like they'd never talked about Lorne before publicly is like, are we allowed to do this? Like, they, you know, it was like the things they tell their friends at dinner parties but have never said publicly. You know, so just trying to navigate that. And then, you know, the people who've come through the SNL world who. And there's, you know, of course, like, when it comes to Lorne, it's like a cottage industry type of talk. And it's almost like a Kremlinology of, you know, how people. What's happening in there and all that kind of stuff. But I thought that also was interesting. So, in a way, I think the film is also a portrait of how people talk about Lorne and their own kind of projections on Lauren. You know, certainly that's part of it. But then I think the film, in a way, is like my first nature documentary, because the beginning, what you see in the beginning of the film is my experience of literally day one of filming. So we had had all these great, nice conversations. I pull out the camera and he hides. And it wasn't just that, oh, he was hard to find. Like, I think he was really, really being evasive to the point where on the first Day. I thought it was a bit. I was like, really?

[Jesse David Fox]

You will never know if it works.

[Morgan Neville]

But I felt like the whole process of making the film, it's another kind of thread of the film is it's my journey as a filmmaker going from just trying to, like, capture this rare creature on camera to, like, getting closer. And he's getting a little calmer, and I can get closer and closer, and then, you know, finally feeling like, okay, I. Yeah, I can get a close up.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. And it's like at his house in the country. And it's like, it's quiet.

[Morgan Neville]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And it's nice. It comes at a nice time. Move. You're like. You're in his. You feel like everything is being so busy. And then you're like, oh, it can be a person for, I feel like, maybe 10 seconds.

[Morgan Neville]

Yeah. And that was my breakthrough being like, okay, we can go to his house in Maine.

[Jesse David Fox]

Huge.

[Morgan Neville]

And that was huge for us, you know, but it took two years to get there.

[Jesse David Fox]

That's unbelievable. That was the part. It's like, okay, that shot is the movie. If you just had that, it's, like, worth it. The benefit is everyone's funny throughout the entire movie.

[Morgan Neville]

I wanted the film to be funny. I really, really wanted the film to be funny. And there's part of it. You know, Lauren has this speech in the film about a big dumb movie. I feel like part of this, I want it to be a big dumb movie.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

Even though it might be smart too, or whatever. But it's also. I just wanted it to be funny in that the people that love SNL want something to be funny. So I thought about it as, like, a SNL fan, which I've been my entire life. What would I want to see? I'd say, well, how do we tell stories of Lauren's life where there's no footage? And I thought, what if I call Robert Smigel and we get the TV Funhouse team together and, like, do new cartoons? I was like, I want to see that. So then start collaborating with Smigel and those guys on that was amazing. But just looking for the humor of it where we could. I mean, there are, like, little nods in there to, like, Tom Schiller films from the early SNL films in the 70s. And I felt like I came up with the whole theory, which, if I'm ever going to talk about it, this would be the place to talk about it. Of the laughs in a film like that, or maybe in documentary, which is the three types of laughs. One is the borrowed laugh, which is you're just showing a funny clip. We know it's funny, we show it, it's funny. The found laugh, which is I interview somebody and they said something funny and we put it in. And then the created laugh, which is an edit is funny or an ironic clip is something that makes it funny. And so I wanted all those funny gears working as much as I could.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, I'm trying to think, you know, the edit where it's like someone says something really big and then you cut to like a face of a cow. I think you cut the fish often. I feel like are relief. I think that does work. I think the fish imagery, you're like, oh, in many ways he's like a fish in a bull. But also you're like. I think it's. To do snl, you have to be like both extremely irreverent to taking yourself seriously while also literally being so self obsessed that all you do is take yourself and figuring out doing it in the way that Snell would stomach. Right. It's like all Lauren's taste of like, what is the right amount of nostalgia and what is too much of nostalgia you've talked about. You'll spend a lot of time thinking about a person and like obsessing over what they consume. You'll read the books they read, you'll watch and you want to tell the story how they would tell themselves in some way. And it's something that I try to do as well with this. But I'm curious if you run a risk of being too credulous to a person. This is the thing I think about myself. Do you then defer too much to a person's own narrative of a telling and like especially in the case with you say with a. When you're doing a movie about someone who is a boss, did you consider having people that have like much more contrary takes on Lorne who worked there or had much harder times working there?

[Morgan Neville]

I mean, I think of myself a little bit like a method director, like to your point, that kind of everything about their ethos is kind of what I'm trying to get in there. So a film like Mr. Rogers is like a very simple, deep, clean, emotional storytelling. My next film was about Orson Welles last documentary or a documentary about it called They'll Love Me when I'm Dead, which is like a chaotic, funny, crazy documentary which reflected Orson, you know, But I think Bourdain, I mean, all of my films, I want them to feel like the subject.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

And I feel like what for? For a job like this. I come into it and I say, I have said this literally that I'm not here to praise you, I'm not here to bury you. I'm just here to understand. And I feel like that's my job. You know, I'm not, you know, I've read every book and I've read people saying this and that. I feel like this is the one moment ever to have Lorne to get a sense of who he is and as much as you can kind of understand what makes him tick and see what he might be like in the room, you know, and not without, you know. You know, I'm not doing it blindly. I'm not. You know, it's same with McCartney, too. It's like I want to understand the mistakes and understand, you know, the complication of it, but. But this is the one chance to kind of channel him. And I feel like. And I, you know, I asked him about a lot of other, you know, whatever, about whether Sinead o' Connor or having Trump on the show. And, you know, I use some of that in there. But again, Lorne doesn't give clean answers to any. Anything. He's not wrestling with it, you know, And I think one of the things people don't appreciate about Lorne is that they think that he has a grand plan and he moves a finger and people disappear and appear and anybody does whatever he wants. And I think from Lauren's point of view, he's sweating getting next week's show on. And it's like, when you talk to him, almost inevitably the first thing we talk about is last week's show or this week's show and what's happening right now. And I think if you talk to him about, oh, why do you have Donald Trump host the show? He was saying, I thought it get good ratings. I thought it was interesting. He was on the COVID of every magazine that week. It wasn't. I was trying to put my hand on the scale of politics in America. People ascribe these kind of grand designs and I think he's way more in the trenches than people realize.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, I mean, I think he preferred. Prefers. I mean, probably because he doesn't want to do the. He doesn't want to be a person of grand. He doesn't want, I mean, to handle the pressure of now being a person who is of essentially has power. I did. When I, when I interviewed him, I was, I asked him, was like, well, when you started, you guys were anti establishment in many ways. SNL is the establishment. And he could not process this information. It's like, we have young people and we're still. I was like. And he just. He's. To him, he's just doing the same job.

[Morgan Neville]

He.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's. It's a one line. So I imagine it's quite hard. I just. It was like, you know, there are people. I mean, I imagine even during that time that you filmed, there were. It's hard because they had frustrating experiences, but not because Lauren did something to them. Just Lauren's created a. The. The world of being an snl. You know, a certain person. Hosts that they disagree with. And it's Lauren passively. There's sort of this passiveness that makes it hard to. I mean, even if there was a thing. Dramatic drama that he wanted to capture, it's hard to do because Lorne is not actively engaging in. He's sort of passively. These things just make it happen.

[Morgan Neville]

Touch. And then suddenly, you know. Yeah. I mean, I think Lorne's job is like a thousand phone calls a week that are all just tiny little things, you know, and as he says, if he does his job well, it's invisible.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

You know, and I do think Lorne just. We say it in the film, too. It's like SNL is just a reflection of the whole culture this week, you know, and that's what he's trying to do. And he's not trying to necessarily push it in one way or another. He's just trying to reflect it, you know, and if you go back and look at snl, old episodes on Peacock or wherever, you know, it's like, oh, that's kind of exactly what people were talking about at that moment. And I think that's part of why the show's lasted is it's. He's not trying to put his own point of view on things. You know, he's. His own point of view is kind of the last thing he wants to put on things.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. If anything, his point of view is not having a point of view.

[Morgan Neville]

Absolutely. It's not Lorne. Michael's Saturday Night Live. If it had been, the show wouldn't have lasted.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. And that's, I think, the tensions that have existed. And I think somewhere in the recent Lauren book, which is like, people who want the show to have a point of view. And he's like, no, the show doesn't have a point of view.

[Morgan Neville]

No. And that's where people get angry at him. And there are times it's frustrating for everybody. And I think his point of View is when I'm taking criticism from everybody, then I'm probably doing the right thing. I mean, as you said, it is called broadcasting. There's a broad audience. And it's funny in terms of him feeling like he's still in the trenches. I asked everybody when I interviewed them, when do you think SNL became perennial? Like, at what point do you think the show became a thing that was not gonna go away?

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

And some people said, oh, it was after the. You know, the 97 season. And they kind of rebirthed a new cast, and it was great and stronger than ever. It was the 87 season, you know, and Dana and Hartman and everybody came in or 9, 11. It became this thing that just was part of America. And I asked Lauren, and he said, maybe this year, this is the 50th anniversary. So just something, again, that he doesn't allow himself to rest in that way.

[Jesse David Fox]

One thing, you know, Shane Gillis is brought up a little bit, and I do, like, as a follower of snl, it does seem like that situation really affected Lorne. Like, it felt like. I think it was like Lorne's last stand or whatever. Can you talk about as a person who sort of were there around. I believe you were there one of the weeks Jane hosted, what did that situation mean to Lauren? I think, for those who don't know, Shane Gillis was cast, and then he was.

[Morgan Neville]

After a few days.

[Jesse David Fox]

After a few days, clips of him being racist and. Or ironically racist, depending on your opinion, on a podcast where it came out. And then NBC asked Lauren to fire him. And essentially he had to. Also, Shane, at some point, did it. Not a good apology, that Shane will admit. If he did a normal apology, this. Everything would have been different anyway.

[Morgan Neville]

So it was a complicated situation. I think, you know, it was. And again, like, the. The writing staff, the producer staff, and the cast now is, like, so diverse. But I think there was a moment. I think Lauren's just trying to pull in different flavors.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

And Shane was somebody who is, like, more. Right. Coded in a lot of ways, and so. And was talented, obviously, you know, But I think it was at a moment. I mean, he says this, you know, it was kind of the peak of a certain kind of, you know, political correctness, I guess, or whatever you call it, and that he. I think the thing that hurt him the most is just having his hand slapped by the corporate bosses. You know, I think that's really. It's. It's even less about the people and the politics. It's not about the Politics. It's just about, you know, that and it. And it's in a time getting to your point earlier that where people, including people in the cast want the show to have opinions about things, and it's incredibly difficult to not take sides, you know, and. But again, there are people that say that SNL does take sides, you know, I mean, I think. I mean, certainly a lot of people on the right now size it too, you know. You know, and it does have a kind of a, you know, center left maybe point of view on things. Certainly they make fun of Trump enough and enough of that, but with good reason. But as Lauren always keeps saying, it's like this show is shown in Oklahoma and Kansas too. And in a way, where else do we all even watch the same thing to disagree about it. Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And it says, as you're. At least in the movie, it's like, it seems like he's like, still people. Like, I think probably at that point he's like, at this point, I can do what I. He's not doing anything radical. So he's like, if I. The show is the only thing that succeeds anymore in television. And I imagine it's like, you know, once a decade or so, for a while, a thing like this would happen and he would get in trouble and he would be overruled the norm. MacDonald's probably the most famous recent example. And it did feel like he has a chip on his shoulder around the Shane thing because he was like, at this point, I'm still having to deal with it. Is that your.

[Morgan Neville]

Well, and then, you know, Shane then becomes incredibly successful. So I think part of it was like, you guys, you know, we could have weathered this, and in the end, it actually would have been great for the show. I think that is really probably.

[Jesse David Fox]

I mean, it's hard because it's not a thing Lauren would do, but Lauren probably should have been like, run your apology by me first. Yeah, but that's, it's, it's. It's interesting. Did you at any point consider playing the clip of what Shane said?

[Morgan Neville]

I didn't. Just because. Just because whenever I got too specific into things like that, it just, you know, the film covers so much.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

In 93 minutes or whatever that when I started to get deeper into stories like that, it just started to become a different film, you know, and again, it's like, I've read all those articles that people write more articles and they wrote articles about this film that way. But this is like a chance for. To get a glimpse of kind of Lauren's thinking and kind of understand that. But to run that and then put him on the spot about it, I wouldn't, you know, when I did put him on the spot about things, that's the problem. Yeah, there's no. There's no. They're there to get.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, it's impossible. It would be impossible. And then it's a rabbit hole that would be extremely unsatisfying to watch because you'd show it and then you'd have no relief of that tension of it, because Lauren will not be able to. He talks too weird. People don't do impressions of him enough. It's probably the real take. So in the doc, you have Steve Martin and Lauren at dinner, and they bring up the idea of leaving. And Lauren's like, I'm not leaving. Right. But you've spent a lot of time with a lot of people that work there. What are they saying and who do they think?

[Morgan Neville]

I mean, this is like a parlor game, but probably more for people outside of SNL than inside. I mean, he obviously has a few lieutenants there that have been there for a long time. Steve Higgins, Eric Kenward, people that have been there for decades who are doing a lot of heavy lifting on the show. It will be said. The thing is, I don't think there's a person to replace Lorne. I think there might be a couple of people to replace Lorne. Because the thing is, Lorne has two jobs. He has managing down, which is most of what we hear about cast and writers and people that have had those experiences coming up. And we. They all go on podcasts and talk about those things. The other part of the job is managing up. And Loren is a genius at managing up. You know, there have been a dozen heads of NBC in the time he's been at snl, and he's outlasted all of them. The way you deal with sponsors, I mean, after a show one night when we were filming, and this is gearing up for SNL50, and they're trying to get people to underwrite all these things, and I go into his office 1:15 in the morning, and he just starts telling me stories and talking and talking. And I'm just thinking, surely we could talk about this another time. Finally, I interrupt him and I say, I'm sorry. Lorne, the CEO of Pepsi, is outside the door waiting. Maybe you should talk to him. He's like, oh, okay. But the amount of time he takes care of that stuff. I mean, he just launched this SNL UK three weeks ago. Who's launching new TV shows and broadcast these days. So there is a part of the job that we don't see. And I think you need somebody with real gravitas, like cultural gravitas to do that. You know, and obviously there are people. That's where like a Tina or maybe a Seth or, you know, people who can get people on the phone.

[Jesse David Fox]

It's just so funny because, like, everyone ultimately goes like, it's either like, those are the names and Tina. Tina. I never see talk about it. Seth is like, it's just gonna be some person. SNL UK just has some person. Yeah, but that's what Seth would have to say. It just seems like.

[Morgan Neville]

But I think they need the person who has the weight to both get. Call politicians or call whomever and call

[Jesse David Fox]

Ariana Grande or whatever.

[Morgan Neville]

Yeah. But also to call, you know, the CEO of whatever company and say, we need this from you, or will you do this? Because that ultimately is what protects the show. I mean, the show is incredibly wasteful. It is. I mean, but, you know, that's part of what Lorne believes makes it what it is. I mean, for instance, you know, the film units, they have three dedicated film units every week, meaning they know they're gonna make three films a week. They know at best they're gonna only air two. So they know they're gonna throw away one film a week.

[Jesse David Fox]

And Most put on YouTube. At most. Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

At most go on YouTube, which is. So that's kind of crazy just knowing that you're doing all this work that is not gonna make air.

[Jesse David Fox]

The amount of work that does not get made is no one would be like, we're agreeing to do a show that, I don't know, 80% of the work does not get, you know, like, right. Because you're having tons of. You have a huge writing staff that sets is crazy that they have multiple sets being built every week that are thrown into. That are just like, no.

[Morgan Neville]

And so it's a huge cast now, huge writing staff, huge film units. It's just ballooned and it's still working. But it's the kind of thing that if you're a network execration and you don't have Lorne there, the first thing you're gonna say is, maybe it's not 400 million an episode or 4 million an episode. What is it now? Not 400, but it's something. I know. Don't quote me on it, but I think it is something in that range. And they're like, surely we could do this for a third Less.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

And you could.

[Jesse David Fox]

But what is the show? There's currently, as I'm sure will be the case every single year until Lorne's dead, rumors that this coming finale is this last episode because Paul McCartney is a musical guest and Will Ferrell is the host, though that is the type of. And if you look at every season finale, that's what it is like having more experience than almost everyone in that world. When you see that, does any part of you go like, well, maybe that could be his last episode or you think he's doing until he dies?

[Morgan Neville]

Oh, he's inseparable from the show. The show is Lorne. Lorne is the show. You know, it's his life's work. You know, I think Lorne is at the, you know, at the least going to be always a kind of a emeritus figure in some ways or even more. I mean, he may see more and more bits of the kind of day to day, but still on show weeks, Lauren is there every single day. You know, he's maybe not there as late as he used to be, but he's still there every day. He doesn't want to give it up. And also, I think if I were him, understanding, like, it's part of what keeps him going too. You know, it's like, why give up this thing that you created that you love, you know, and you get to be Lorne Michaels and all of that. And I mean, one of his friends said to me, you know, Loren really loves his family, but if you asked him to pick between SNL and his family, he would think about it and he'd pick his family. In fact, he would have to think about it.

[Jesse David Fox]

SNL is not his job. It is Lorne Michaels. Right. It's like, it's so you're essentially like choosing between your family and existing like your individual life.

[Morgan Neville]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

And so it's like, what is his life without it? Like, literally there is. He would have to invent. I mean, obviously lots of people do that while retiring, but like, every minute of his life is built around, including his vacations are built around. Like when the SNL vacation.

[Morgan Neville]

Well, other way around.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

SNL's built around Lauren's vacation schedule.

[Jesse David Fox]

SNL is built around Lauren is the fact.

[Morgan Neville]

No, everything about it. It's about when he goes to sleep. It's about when his kids have, you know, spring break, you know, or whatever. It's. The show was built exactly around Lorne.

[Jesse David Fox]

So weird.

[Morgan Neville]

Yeah. Such a weird thing.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you ever tell him he's weird?

[Morgan Neville]

You know, in A strange way,

[Jesse David Fox]

I

[Morgan Neville]

think Lauren's not actually that weird. You know, the thing I think that doesn't get enough attention is that Lorne's Canadian. So there's part of him that is, like, so wholesome, you know, loves his family, loves baseball, loves America, you know, loves history, you know, just is very. Just down the middle.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

In. In a way even that most Americans wouldn't be, like, so embracing of the American ness. But also, I think there's like, a code of morality that Canadians have that a lot of Americans somehow don't have of just loyalty showing up. I mean, stuff that Lauren is very important to Lauren. People said this again and again. It's like when they have their own children or if they have a parent who dies, Lauren is always the first person to show up or say something like, he. This is when Lauren really shows up. And I think that's, again, just part of what makes him like a. Not just a strange wizard of Oz, but actually like a person who a lot of these people deeply love and invest all this, you know, emotion in you.

[Jesse David Fox]

You spent all these times with, like, the great cultural figures of the 25th and 21st century. What else? Like, what century are these? And. Yeah, so I want to ask you sort of general questions of what you have learned. What have you learned about fame?

[Morgan Neville]

Fame is the same. Fame's boring. Fame is the least interesting thing about these people because, yeah, it's the same story. So I often think when I'm looking at telling these stories, fame is generic. So take that out of it. In certain ways, genius is even generic.

[Jesse David Fox]

That was going to be a nice question. Well, what did you learn about genius?

[Morgan Neville]

Genius is singular, and they're a genius, you know, but like with the McCartney film, it was almost like, forget that Paul's a genius. He's just a guy going through a divorce, essentially, with his band. And he's 27, and he's never had a chance to grow up and tell that story as, like, a person. Like, he's actually relatable. And like, it's Paul McCartney. And most people think, what do I have to learn from Paul McCartney? So, you know, I'm more trying to think about the human part of it. And I remember, you know, one of my mentors was Peter Goralnick, the great music writer. And we did a film together about Sam Phillips, who started sun records. This is 20 more than 25 years ago. And Peter gave me advice in the beginning. He said that the three least interesting things in writing about musicians are sex, drugs, and getting ripped off by your record label because everybody tells the same stories. So it's like, put those aside. What makes this person unique or what makes them universal or what makes. You know. And so I think about it that way. Yeah, I'm not that interested in fame.

[Jesse David Fox]

In terms of genius, is. Is the difference between the person who writes Paul McCartney songs and a person who's even successful, but not like, is there really no to Paul? Is there no difference to being a genius? Having interviewed geniuses, are they ultimately just artists? And coincidentally, what they do is genius?

[Morgan Neville]

I mean, there are people that are touched in different ways, and some of them in an almost autistic way that. I mean, I did a whole project with Brian Wilson years ago, and he's somebody who is just, you know, he was Mozart.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

You know, but he was making surf music and, you know, torrents. So there are people like that. What's unique about somebody like Paul is how normal he is for somebody that has. Is touched with a kind of a musical genius. But I've met a lot of people who are kind of musical geniuses, in a way, and it's. You know, and I've. And there are actually a lot of people who. You see them in music schools who are just like, oh, they can pick up any instrument and they can play anything. And what's interesting is that Paul had that talent, but he also had the collaborators. He had the cultural timing. He had the ability to kind of bring other culture into it, you know, so that's what's interesting about it, is that his antenna was also tuned out to what else was happening at the time.

[Jesse David Fox]

What have you learned about masculinity? You do. A lot of these have been about. A lot of your documentaries have been about men.

[Morgan Neville]

Yes.

[Jesse David Fox]

What do you learn about us

[Morgan Neville]

white men?

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, what have you learned about us white men?

[Morgan Neville]

More about white men. You know, it took me forever to realize that I made films about culture. Like, I didn't even. That wasn't a thing I realized going in. But it's what I've always loved my whole life. You know, I've always loved books and movies and art and music, of course, and of all sorts. Like, I've. You know, I've. I started when I was starting. I made films about Muddy Waters and Stacks Records and all those things, and I love all that. But the men. That's a good question. You know, I mean, I think it's. It's funny because I feel like I. Even though I have made a lot of biographical films, I Feel like they're also films about myself because they're the questions I'm asking.

[Jesse David Fox]

Sure, yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

I mean, even the McCartney film, it's a question about how do you deal with your own legacy? How do you not do what people expect you to do? How do you balance your family with your work? I mean, these are things that I ask myself, and so these are things I'm asking in the film. Steve Martin, same thing. You know, like, I'm. I'm asking questions of myself. And in a way, I think a lot of what I gravitate towards in these people is less about them as men, just them as people, often living creative lives of kind of, what can I learn from this person? Or where do I see my own experience and that experience? And I think a major part of my storytelling is about questions, not answers. You know, a film like Won't yout Be My Neighbor, you know, six scenes in that film end on questions. The movie ends on a question. The title of that movie is a Question.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

That whole movie is about making you, sitting there in that theater, ideally, ask yourself questions. You know, So I really like asking questions and making you, as an audience, have to come up with your own answer.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you have a sense of why it's been largely men that you reflect yourself via?

[Morgan Neville]

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, part of it is opportunity.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

You know, and part of it is. I mean, there is. We're in this moment where, like, I'm not allowed to make films about women. You know, I have to stay in my lane, so.

[Jesse David Fox]

And there's only so many cultural figures that were women. I mean, like, partly, like, you're telling historical stories, and because of history being what it is, there's only so many women that rose to that level in history anyway.

[Morgan Neville]

No. And I. I would love to make a great film about a woman.

[Jesse David Fox]

They really, when working on this, I was like, well, like, there's like. It's like, I wonder if anyone will do a whoopee doc. And, like, it was just announced.

[Morgan Neville]

Yeah. Oh, was it just announced? Yeah. I mean, we're kind of in that stage now where it's like. I mean, I think it's one of the things from this boom in documentary is kind of anybody who could have a documentary made who's willing, has had one or is having one made, you know, and so I'm actually trying to not do a biographical documentary. I mean, I've kind of done it, and, you know, I've. And I've, again, I've made some of the films you've listed.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

Some of those are not biographical documentaries. People tend to always focus on the biographical documentaries, you know, and say, well, that's what you do. And I said, well, no, that's. Those tend to be bigger.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

Just because the subjects might be bigger.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah. It's easy to remember that. It's easy to, if you haven't seen it, know you did it because it's just like, oh, you did the Steve Martin documentary where it's like the ones that are about an idea. It's harder to know from the title. Last of these questions. What have you learned about the creative process? Because you focus on the creative process. I focus on creative.

[Morgan Neville]

The creative process is one of my all time favorite things. I did a series called Abstract for Netflix about design. And it's funny. I mean, it's one of my favorite things I've ever worked on. And the first episode I directed, it was about Christoph Niemann, this amazing German illustrator who's a good friend of mine to this day. And I felt like, I remember when I was working on that, my editor came, I went into the edit bay and he said, you know, he's talking about editing when he's talking about design.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

And I said, no, he's talking about directing, you know, and to him he's talking about illustrating. And it's like the rules of how you be a creative person and how you stay creative and stay challenged, you know, are just things that are always fascinating to me, you know, so it's both the process of creativity and part of what I, you know, I think of design is like art with clients. That's kind of what documentaries do, you know. So I feel a lot of sympathy with, you know, oddly, I feel like designers and architects are very close to documentary filmmakers in that way. And a lot of my friends are designers and architects. But yeah, Christoph says he, he has a decision tree for work, which I love. He said, I think of three things when I think about work. I think, is this job going to make me money? Is this job going to be fun? Is this job going to advance my art? And every job has to be at least two out of three. And so I think about that all the time.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, especially now as you don't have a project, I imagine.

[Morgan Neville]

And I'm aiming for three out of three.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah, I think at this point you get a three out of three. So now it's time for a final segment. It's like a lightning round, but you don't have to answer it quickly. These are just questions we ask every time. So they're sectioned off. You can also pass on these if you don't have one. Do you have a short story of an interaction with a legendary celebrity actor, writer, director you're willing to share?

[Morgan Neville]

I thought about that Gore Vidal story earlier. I was like, oh, I should tell that. But then I got out of the way earlier. I've had so many interesting. I mean, here's one example that pops into my. Years ago when I was doing the Sam Phillips documentary, I was interviewing Scotty Moore, who was Elvis's guitarist. You know, the original guitar player for Elvis played legendary guitar player. And he was coming into Memphis for us to shoot, and I made a reservation at the nicest steakhouse in Memphis. I thought, this is gonna be amazing. And so Scotty comes, he's totally sweet. And I said, I made a reservation at this really nice steakhouse tonight. And he said, well, I noticed there was a TGI Fridays on the corner. I really like their, you know, Jack Daniels braised beef whatever thing. Yeah, can we go there? I was like, sure. And so we went and ate at TGI Fridays and had a great dinner. And, you know, that was. He just. He just was a guy that wanted one day to TGI Fridays.

[Jesse David Fox]

Who is the best living documentary filmmaker?

[Morgan Neville]

That's such an unfair question, because documentary is not one thing. You know, documentary is like 50 types of film all rolled into one. You know, I mean, there are people who changed the form. You know, who. You know, people like Errol Morris, of course. You know, people who. I watched their films when I. Before I knew I was going to be a documentary filmmaker and realized, oh, there's a different type of film you could make here, you know, and even Michael Moore, I will say, you know, I don't. I don't make his kind of films. And I wouldn't say they're the best films, but just people who change the form. You know, I always think that's really interesting. And so, you know, there was such a kind of a. An orthodoxy to documentary for so long. So people that kind of blew that up. I mean, Ross McGili is another one. You know, Sherman's March is one of my all time favorite films. If you haven't seen it, go see it. Funny, but heartbreaking too, in many ways. So anyway, that works. Maybe that works.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you have a time you bombed, whatever that means. You're working in some capacity in your job, and it is akin to bombing or failing.

[Morgan Neville]

Oh, I mean, when you make stuff, people criticize you A lot. And there's that kind of bombing. And it's funny. It's like I've had my own, like, ram experiences that McCartney had.

[Jesse David Fox]

What is your ram?

[Morgan Neville]

Well, I mean, my first documentary, it's funny because a lot of people, you know, when it came out, like, we made it for no money. My first documentary was called Shotgun Freeway Drives Through Lost Ladies. And it was this crazy mondo film. But, like, Joan Didion was in it and James Ellroy and different people talking about the meaning of history in la. And the LA Weekly wrote a review. It was Manola Dargis, and she just trashed it again. I remember the name everything exactly, of course. And then it helps that she went on to do all that or not, but I will remember that forever. But it's a film again that, like, over time, then so many people have said, like, discovered that film. Loved it. But, yeah, the wounds are deep. I try to not read anything anymore.

[Jesse David Fox]

I think it's probably for the best.

[Morgan Neville]

Yeah.

[Jesse David Fox]

What's the last movie, TV show or play or book that made you cry? Not necessarily because it was sad, because it was good.

[Morgan Neville]

Yeah, I mean, I remember. I mean, maybe train Dreams. I really found that touching. I don't know if you saw that movie.

[Jesse David Fox]

I have not yet.

[Morgan Neville]

Don't watch it on an iPad. Watch it on the biggest screen you have. I mean, it's an immersive film. I just thought it was so beautiful. But what. The way you ask that question, you know, there is sadness, but it's one of the things about Won't yout Be My Neighbor was a film that I guess famously made people cry. And I thought a lot about that. And there was a thing Roger Ebert had said, not about the film, but before that, that, you know, it's not sadness that touches him, it's goodness. And I think that was what made that film make people, made people cry.

[Jesse David Fox]

What is the best advice you took or the worst advice you didn't?

[Morgan Neville]

I mean, there's a quote that I've thought about a lot, a lot as a documentary filmmaker from Al Mayls, part of the Maisels brothers who did Grey Gardens and many, many other great documentaries. He said, if you end up making the film you set out to make, then you weren't listening along the way. And I think that's such an important part of the job. He, you know, I see a lot of people. It's part of my problem with film school that, you know, I come from journalism. Film school is all about your voice. What do you have to say, journalism is all about your ear. What do you hear? And it's two very different things. So I see a lot of people kind of having decided what their documentary is completely before they make it, and missing so much along the way. And I love it when I start in one direction and then.

[Jesse David Fox]

Can you think of a documentary that changed radically from what you thought it was going to be?

[Morgan Neville]

I mean, even the Steve Martin documentary was something that. I was shooting it for months, and I just kept thinking everything was going in two different directions. Like, there was this Steve who was the Steve and the archive, and he was the solitary figure intellectually trying to solve the problem of humor in the 70s. And then there was the guy I was hanging out with, who had friends and a wife and a kid and a band and Marty Short and everybody, and was surrounded by people and.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

And I couldn't reconcile them. And I just said, well, I think I'm gonna make two different films. And so I literally split it. I had two different editors, composers, graphics people. They weren't allowed to watch the other film, you know, So I really put a wall between the two and made them that way and then took down the wall at the end and kind of put them together. And it's the contrast between the two films that I was interested in. But. But that was just me reacting to what I was getting.

[Jesse David Fox]

Do you have an opinion or a creative idea that you thought was great, but everyone was telling you it was wrong, that maybe you listened to them, but you'll go to your grave. And, like, I was right. They were wrong. This is. Does shot need to be in it? Whatever it is, or an opinion that. About documentaries, all options are good.

[Morgan Neville]

You know, there's this thing that I hear a lot of comedians talk about that they kind of enjoy failing at times. Like, if they're doing improv and it goes off the rails, you kind of lean into it. And I think the older I get, the more I kind of like failure in a way, just feeling it and understanding it, because it means you're trying something, you know? And so, yeah, I feel. I don't know if it's good advice or not, but, you know, can you think. Try to fail?

[Jesse David Fox]

Can you think of something that you failed at, but you're like, this is better because of it?

[Morgan Neville]

Oh, yeah. I mean, because everything is just. You know, I like making stuff, and what I learn on one film changes the next film. I remember when I did my Orson Welles documentary, They'll Love Me When I'm Dead, that I finished the first cut and I felt great about it. And I sent it to two friends. One was Jim Burke, Oscar winning producer, and one was Rick Rubin. And they both got back to me essentially saying, what the fuck is this? Just weren't buying it at all. And. And that actually was kind of great. And again, I just made the Mr. Rogers film.

[Jesse David Fox]

Yeah.

[Morgan Neville]

So I, I wanted to do something.

[Jesse David Fox]

You wanted that reaction.

[Morgan Neville]

I wanted to just be punk rock about it and like just swing huge and. But that needed to be what it was.

[Jesse David Fox]

Thank you so much.

[Morgan Neville]

Thank you.

[Jesse David Fox]

That's it for another episode of Good One. Good One is produced by myself, Zachary Mack, Neal Janowitz and Ann Victoria Clark. Music composed by Brandon McFarland. Write a review and rate the show on Apple Podcasts. Five stars, please. I am Jesse David Fox and you can follow me at Jesse David Fox. Buy my book, comedy book, wherever books are sold. Thanks for listening to Good one from New York magazine and you can subscribe to the [e-mail] pod we'll be back with a new episode next week. Have a good one.