Are We Arrogant to Reject the Teachings of the Early Church Fathers?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Grace in Focus

Episode: Are We Arrogant to Reject the Teachings of the Early Church Fathers?
Host: Bob Wilkin (with Ken Yates)
Date: March 11, 2026
Length: 13 minutes

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Overview

This episode tackles a foundational question often posed to proponents of Free Grace Theology: Is it arrogant for modern Christians to reject the theological views of the early Church Fathers, who were closer to the apostles in time and relationship? Bob Wilkin and Ken Yates discuss the historical context of the Church Fathers' teachings, their divergence from New Testament doctrine, the evolution of early Christian beliefs about salvation, and whether “age” or proximity guarantees doctrinal accuracy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Clarifying the Church Fathers

• Distinction Made:
  • Apostolic Fathers: Closely associated with or discipled by the apostles (late 1st to mid-2nd century).
  • Church Fathers: Includes Apostolic Fathers but extends to late 4th/early 5th century (e.g., Augustine).
  • [01:19–02:51] Ken Yates, Bob Wilkin

2. Summary of Their Teachings

• Early Church Fathers'
  • Denied “once saved, always saved.”
  • Rejected Calvinistic predestination.
  • Emphasized baptismal regeneration and ongoing participation in sacraments for salvation.
• [03:31] Bob Wilkin: “They all believed you could lose your salvation ... you had to be baptized to go to heaven ... you had to take the Lord’s Supper ... or you would lose your salvation.”

3. Are We Arrogant to Disagree with the Early Fathers?

• Response: It's not arrogant if their teachings contradict Scripture.
• Cites even first-century Judaizers as being close in time to Jesus but still wrong (example: Galatians).
• Quote:
  • [05:19] Ken Yates: “The question is not how early the Apostolic Fathers or church Fathers wrote. The question is, is what they wrote accurate?”
• Key Principle: Alignment with Scripture, not the age of the teaching, is what determines truth.
• [05:17–05:21]

4. Historical Development: Repentance, Baptism, and Penance

• Post-apostolic Church:
  • Only one repentance allowed after baptism — led to people delaying baptism to deathbed.
• Church Response:
  • Introduced “one post-baptismal repentance,” later grew to multiple opportunities with penance.
• Resulting Practices:
  • The “mourner’s bench” and long penance periods before returning to communion.
  • Eventually, the system devolved into abuses like indulgences.
• Quotes:
  • [06:42] Ken Yates: “So they said, there’s no repentance after you’ve been baptized ... if you commit a mortal sin after your baptism, you’re going to hell.”
  • [08:33] Bob Wilkin: “Think of the power they had.”
• Historical trajectory:
  • Early views → stricter rules → systematized penance → indulgences → Reformation.

5. Majority Tradition vs. Scriptural Authority

• Theology by Popular Vote?
  • Majority views of the Fathers led to the dominance of Catholic and Orthodox beliefs.
  • Rejection of “faith alone” led to schisms and ultimately the Reformation.
• Quote:
  • [09:58] Ken Yates: “If it’s arrogant to question what the Church Fathers and the Apostolic Fathers said, well, then John should be Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.”
• Challenges the notion that length of tradition equals authority.

6. Proximity Doesn’t Guarantee Orthodoxy

• Example: Polycarp
  • Even if he heard John the Apostle, that doesn’t ensure doctrinal accuracy decades later.
  • [11:15] Ken Yates: “Didn’t John even say that in 1 John 2:19, ‘they went out from us because they were not of us’?”
• Modern Parallels:
  • Today’s students don’t always represent their mentors’ teachings.
• Bottom Line: Older or closer in time doesn’t inherently mean more correct.

7. Experiential Assessment of Early Writings

• Personal Reflections:
  • Both hosts found the Church Fathers’ writings legalistic and burdensome.
• Quotes:
  • [12:02] Ken Yates: “I don’t know about you, but I found them appalling.”
  • [12:04] Bob Wilkin: “You had to jump through so many hoops ... and they had so many requirements.”
• Recommendation:
  • Read them in English yourself—the contrast with the New Testament is clear.

8. Aging Does Not Equal Truth

• Catchy Summary:
  • [12:48] Ken Yates (humorously): “If it did, John, then I’d be telling the truth because I’m old.”
• Conclusion:
  • Truth is determined only by its alignment with Scripture, not historical longevity.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Judging Doctrinal Accuracy:
  • [05:19] Ken Yates: “The question is not how early the Apostolic Fathers or church Fathers wrote. The question is, is what they wrote accurate?”
• On Contradicting Scholarship:
  • [09:57] Bob Wilkin: “...what you said today contradicts 500 years of Christian scholarship.”
• On Historical Irony:
  • [09:58] Ken Yates: “Shouldn’t you be Roman Catholic? ... If you want to follow the majority of Christian scholarship, you’re in some little minor tributary ... you should be a Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox ...”
• On Scriptural Supremacy:
  • [12:42] Bob Wilkin: “How old something is does not determine the truth of it. The truth of it is, does it agree with Scripture?”
• On the Reading Experience:
  • [12:02] Ken Yates: “I don’t know about you, but I found them appalling.”
  • [12:04] Bob Wilkin: “Oh, I did too, man. You had to jump through so many hoops...”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment Topic | Time | |------------------------------------------- |-----------| | Distinguishing Apostolic vs. Church Fathers| 01:19–02:51| | Early Fathers’ Teachings Summarized | 03:31 | | Scriptural Authority vs. Early Tradition | 05:17–05:21| | Historical Development of Repentance | 06:42–08:31| | Majority Tradition Challenged | 09:57–09:58| | Alleged Polycarp “Lineage” and Accuracy | 10:54–11:54| | Reaction to Reading the Fathers | 12:00–12:14| | Authority Determined by Truth, Not Age | 12:42–12:48|

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Tone and Conclusion

• Tone: Conversational, analytical, at times humorous, and confident in scriptural sufficiency.
• Key Takeaway:
  It is neither arrogant nor unwise to reject the teachings of the early Church Fathers if they contradict Scripture. Tradition and proximity to the apostles do not guarantee truth—only fidelity to the biblical text does.

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Final Word:
[12:42] Bob Wilkin: “How old something is does not determine the truth of it. The truth of it is, does it agree with Scripture?”

Transcript

[Bob Wilkin]

The following is a listener supported ministry from the Grace Evangelical Society.

[Announcer]

Are we being arrogant if we reject the teachings of the early Church fathers? How could we in the 21st century have more theological knowledge than these men who were closer to the time of Jesus? Hello. Welcome to Grace and Focus. Let's talk about this topic today and we're delighted that you're joining us. Grace and Focus is a radio broadcast and podcast ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. We come to you weekdays and our web address is faithalone.org there you can get information about our online free seminary, our in print free magazine also called Grace and Focus, and about our national annual conference coming up May 18th through the 21st. Make plans to join us. Get all the information you [e-mail] or it's going to be a great time. There are great accommodations. We meet at Camp Kopas, beautiful place in Denton, Texas. There's VBS for the kids. So right now is a great time to get registered all the information you [e-mail] now with today's question and answer discussion, here are Bob Wilkin and Ken Yates.

[Bob Wilkin]

Bob, we have a question from John and this is a question that comes up every now and then. People wonder about it, I guess, more than anything, even if they don't ask the question. But he refers to what he calls early Church Fathers. And now you and I talked about that. Technically, I think among scholars they make a distinction between the Apostolic Fathers and then the Church Fathers.

[Ken Yates]

Yeah. Now the word Apostolic fathers, apostolic means related to the apostles. So that the apostolic fathers, I believe the definition is people who either knew the apostles were discipled by the apostles or they had a close connection to the apostles. Like for example, they may not have been personally discipled by an apostle or even someone who was trained by the apostles, but they may be discipled by a second generation person who was in turn trained by one of the apostles. So maybe the apostles taught Clement of Rome and then Clement of Rome taught them. So they might say, okay, that's still an Apostolic Father. I think the Apostolic Fathers go from the late first century to the mid to late second century. And then I think Church Fathers includes that group, but goes all the way till about the late 4th or early 5th century. Like I think some people would call Augustine or Augustine, depending on how you pronounce it, a Church father.

[Bob Wilkin]

Even though he was 300 something years old?

[Ken Yates]

Yeah, like 430, I think. When he was what, he was the Bishop of Carthage, I think.

[Bob Wilkin]

Yeah, probably the one that I hear Most often as an Apostolic father was Polycarp. You often hear Polycarp was a disciple of John's and John who wrote the questioner. The questioner also puts Clement in there. He says that they were students and co workers. That's the first time I've heard that with John and the Apostle Paul.

[Ken Yates]

But doesn't he say something about arrogance, that it would be arrogant?

[Bob Wilkin]

Well, here's what he says, all right. These guys who lived so long ago and maybe even knew the apostles, a few of them, or even if they knew someone who knew them.

[Ken Yates]

Right.

[Bob Wilkin]

He says every single one of them, all the way through the 4th century like you said, or 5th century, denied the doctrine of once saved, always saved. And they also rejected predestination. Okay. None of them believed in predestination of the Calvinists. And so none of them believed in one saved, always saved. They all believed you could lose your salvation. And even they believed in baptismal regeneration. When you read their, their writings, you have to be baptized to go to heaven. I, I would say they also taught from my limited reading that you had to take the Lord's Supper, you had to take the Lord's Supper to, to make it into the kingdom, or if you didn't take the Lord's Supper on a regular basis, you would lose your salvation. Okay, here's his question. Are we really, really arrogant to presume that we who've come all these years later have more theological knowledge than these guys did? That's the question. And wouldn't it be more rational to question what we believe if we don't agree with what these guys taught?

[Ken Yates]

Yeah. So good question. And so here would be my answer. Would it have been arrog for someone to question what the first century Judaizers were saying to the churches in galatia? These were first century people. They weren't second century, third century, fourth century. These were around 50 A.D. so within 17 years of Jesus resurrection and they're teaching what Paul calls a false gospel. Would it be arrogant to reject what they said or stupid to accept what they said?

[Bob Wilkin]

I think it'd be biblical to reject it.

[Ken Yates]

Right, right, right. The would be true of any people who contradict scripture. So the question is not when how early the Apostolic Fathers or church Fathers wrote. The question is, is what they wrote accurate? The very fact that they denied the security of the believer shows they lost the concept of John 3. 16. Thomas F. Torrance is a church historian and, and he wrote a book called the Doctrine of Grace in the Apostolic Fathers. And he said to A man. They lost the concept of grace. Let me tell you. I did my dissertation on repentance as a condition for salvation in the New Testament, and part of that was a study of repentance in church history. And here's what I found. Did you know, Ken, that at the very beginning, after the apostles left the scene, that the proto Catholic Church, because there really wasn't a Catholic Church until around the 5th century, but the early versions of the Catholic Church, where they

[Bob Wilkin]

developed bishops and things.

[Ken Yates]

So they said, there's no repentance after you've been baptized. Your baptism covers all your pre baptismal sins. And if you commit a mortal sin after your baptism, you're going to hell.

[Bob Wilkin]

Right. One time, right.

[Ken Yates]

So what do you think people did?

[Bob Wilkin]

Well, I know exactly what they did. They do what I would do. I would wait until I got old and, okay, I'm on my deathbed now, then I'm going to repent and now baptize me. Right.

[Ken Yates]

So they weren't baptized until their deathbed. Right. Okay, so what did the Apostolic Fathers do? Well, they said, this isn't a good idea.

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[Ken Yates]

so then what they did is they said you can have one repentance. So you get initial forgiveness of all your pre baptismal sins. And now you start the Christian life with a clean slate. But if you commit a mortal sin after that, you're going to hell unless you repent. But you only get one time to repent. So guess what they did? They waited till their deathbeds to repent. So then guess what the Apostolic Fathers did. They said, this doesn't make sense. So we're going to allow multiple repentance. There's no limit on it, but the priests are going to give them very strict guidelines on what they need to do before they can come back to communion. Because according to Catholicism, if you can't take last rites, if you can't have communion, you're going to hell. Right.

[Bob Wilkin]

Think of the power they had.

[Ken Yates]

Oh, yeah.

[Bob Wilkin]

And that's what the issue is.

[Ken Yates]

So guess what? That's where they developed the mourner's Bench. People would come to church, they would come to Mass, and they weren't allowed to partake of the elements. And so they had to sit there and mourn. And typically it was six months to a year or a year and a half. And then after that, the priest would say, okay, you've done enough penance. Well, eventually, guess what happened. Eventually it got to the point where penances say so many Hail Marys and you're good to go. In fact, during the time of Luther, they were selling indulgences by around the 15, early 1500s, you could pay money in advance to have an affair. You could say, okay, I'll pay this much money and I get forgiveness in advance. Right, right. And that drove Luther nuts and led Luther to ultimately question what the Catholic Church was saying. So my point in all this is this. The fact that the Church fathers were early doesn't mean they were accurate. I spoke at a brown bag at Dallas seminary around 20 years ago. I think it was 2005 or 2006. And I was talking about the fact that if we simply believe we have eternal life apart from perseverance, apart from us proving anything, this young man came up afterwards and said, you know, what you said today contradicts 500 years of Christian scholarship.

[Bob Wilkin]

There you go. Yeah.

[Ken Yates]

And you know my response to him? I said, why do you say that? Are you talking about Calvinism? And he said, yeah, the Reformation, Calvinism. And I said, but isn't there 2000 years of Christian scholarship? Shouldn't you be Roman Catholic? If you want to follow the majority of Christian scholarship, you're in some little minor tributary. If you're a Calvinist, you should be a Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, one or the other, because they're the ones that go back 2000 years. So if it's arrogant to question what the Church Fathers and. And the Apostolic Father said, well, then John should be Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.

[Bob Wilkin]

And he might be saying that. And there's an implied message in this question here. I'm not saying John is doing it, but when people ask the question, let's take Polycarp, this is an example, and let's assume that Polycarp heard. Because you hear this. Polycarp heard John the Apostle speak.

[Ken Yates]

Right?

[Bob Wilkin]

Okay, let's assume that's true. The implied message is, well, then what he says is true, or what Polycarp says is the same thing John said, but that's not true. How many examples do we know of people who were a student of someone who doesn't teach what they taught.

[Ken Yates]

Didn't John even say that in first John 2:19 they went out from us because they were not of us.

[Bob Wilkin]

Right.

[Ken Yates]

He's talking about people who came into the Jerusalem Church, supposedly believers, and yet they left because they didn't agree with the doctrine of the Jerusalem Church. And the issue is not whether they were born again or not, although I think it's likely they were not born again. The issue was their doctrine didn't match up with the doctrine of the Jerusalem Church. And this was in the first century. Right.

[Bob Wilkin]

And so if Polycarp heard the Apostle John teach, that doesn't prove anything. Thirty years later, he could be teaching something different.

[Ken Yates]

When I was in the doctoral program at Dallas, we had to read some of the writings of the Church fathers.

[Bob Wilkin]

Did you have to do that? Yes, I did.

[Ken Yates]

I don't know about you, but I found them appalling.

[Bob Wilkin]

Oh, I did too, man. You had to jump through so many hoops. You had to do this if you sinned before you could take communion. On and on. And they had so many requirements.

[Ken Yates]

So if you're concerned about what John's talking about, try reading some of these people.

[Bob Wilkin]

They're in English. You can get them in English, but

[Ken Yates]

they don't read at all like scripture. They read like something which is heresy. And even the Orthodox and Catholic Churches have abandoned some of the teachings. For example, the Council of Trent anathematized anyone who taught justification by faith alone. Well, the Catholic Church doesn't do that anymore. They want to call Protestants their brethren.

[Bob Wilkin]

How old something is does not determine the truth of it. The truth of it is, does it agree with Scripture?

[Ken Yates]

If it did, John, then I'd be telling the truth because I'm old.

[Bob Wilkin]

Well, thanks for the question, John. And until next time, keep grace in focus.

[Announcer]

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[Bob Wilkin]

The proceeding has been a listener supported ministry from the Grace Evangelical Society.