Did Jesus Pay the Penalty For Our Sins? – Part 2

Summary

Podcast Summary: Grace in Focus

Episode: Did Jesus Pay the Penalty For Our Sins? – Part 2
Date: October 28, 2025
Hosts: Bob Wilkin and Sam Marr

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Overview

This episode continues the nuanced discussion on whether Jesus "paid the penalty for our sins," focusing on maintaining clear distinctions between justification and sanctification within Free Grace Theology. Hosts Bob Wilkin and Sam Marr explore key scriptural passages (especially John 1:29), differences between forgiveness and removal of the sin barrier, and common misconceptions about the scope and effects of Jesus’ death.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Meaning of John 1:29 – “The Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world”

• Present vs. Future Tense
  • Sam Marr (01:11): “Most commentators feel that this is a futuristic present...who will take away the sin of the world or will soon take away the sin of the world.”
• Raymond Brown’s Distinction
  • Sin (singular) = sinful condition; Sins (plural) = sinful actions.
  • Jesus’ death removes the sin barrier for all humanity, making everyone saveable, but doesn't grant forgiveness to unbelievers.

2. Universal and Individual Benefits of Christ’s Death

• Unrestricted vs. Restricted Benefits
  • Universal: Sin barrier removed for all, so “sin is no longer the issue. The issue is we’re dead. We need life.” (Sam Marr 01:50)
  • Restricted: Forgiveness comes only at belief; “Forgiveness is not for the unbeliever. Until you believe, you don’t get that benefit of Christ’s death.” (Sam Marr 02:35)
• Forgiveness and Confession
  • Bob Wilkin (03:08): “Your sins are forgiven past, present and future, in that sense, they're not forgiven future because we need to keep confessing our sin, asking for forgiveness...”
  • Ongoing forgiveness comes with ongoing confession and walking in the light (First John 1:7).

3. Walking in the Light & Ongoing Fellowship

• Not Just A One-Time Cleansing
  • Sam Marr (03:50): “…confessing our sins though we might be forgiven and cleansed only works if we're walking in the light.”
  • Restoration of fellowship following the prodigal son analogy—repentance required to return to fellowship, not just confession.

4. Other Benefits of Christ’s Death

• Moral Example
  • First John 3:16: “He laid down his life for us, therefore…what should we do?...I should lay down my life for others…to love the brethren.” (Sam Marr 04:44)

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Scriptural Case Studies: Does the Bible Say Christ “Paid the Penalty”?

1. Isaiah 53:5-6 (“by his stripes we are healed”)

• Not direct language of “penalty for sin,” but about “the suffering servant.”
• Misuse in Charismatic Context
  • “If that's physical [healing], then we would never experience physical death…” (Sam Marr 06:51)
• New Testament Interpretation (1 Peter 2:24)
  • “By Christ's stripes we are healed refers to having the ability to live righteously. It’s a spiritual healing…not talking about penalty for sin.” (Sam Marr 08:31)

2. Romans 6 & 1 Peter 2:24: Dying To Sin

• Positional vs. Experiential Death to Sin
  • Only believers have “died to sin” positionally and are enabled to live righteously (Bob Wilkin & Sam Marr, 08:05–08:31).

3. Colossians 2:13-14: Forgiveness at the Point of Belief

• Not universal application; exclusive to “born again believers.”
  • “The very fact that Jesus died...does not mean that the unbeliever has died with Christ...or has the forgiveness of sins.” (Sam Marr 10:12)
• Propitiation vs. Forgiveness
  • Unbelievers are “saveable” because Christ has satisfied God concerning their sin, but they have not been made alive nor forgiven.

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Theological Conclusions

• Removal of Sin Barrier ≠ Automatic Forgiveness or Life

  • “People mean well when they say Jesus paid the penalty for our sins. But biblically … he removes the sin barrier. He made the world saveable.” (Sam Marr 11:28)

• Evangelistic Focus

  • “The issue is we're dead. We need life. The issue is not we're sinners. We need our sins taken away. They've already been taken away. That's the good news.” (Sam Marr 11:41)
  • “Nothing wrong with evangelizing and talking about sin and the cross…believing those things can lead you to believe in Christ for everlasting life.” (Bob Wilkin 11:41)

• Object of Saving Faith

  • “Believing in the cross, the cross doesn't give life. It's not a person that can promise life to anybody. Christ is a person…He promised life to those who believe in him.” (Bob Wilkin 12:06)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Future Forgiveness:
  • “Your sins are forgiven past, present and future, in that sense, they're not forgiven future because we need to keep confessing our sin...”
    (Bob Wilkin, 03:08)
• On Spiritual vs. Physical Healing:
  • “If that's physical, then we would never experience physical death...”
    (Sam Marr, 06:51)
• On the Central Issue in Evangelism:
  • “The issue is we're dead. We need life. The issue is not we're sinners. We need our sins taken away. They've already been taken away. That's the good news.”
    (Sam Marr, 11:41)
• On Object of Faith:
  • “Believing in the cross, the cross doesn't give life. It's not a person that can promise life to anybody.”
    (Bob Wilkin, 12:06)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Present/Future Tense in John 1:29: 01:11
• Unrestricted vs. Restricted Benefits: 01:35–03:23
• Ongoing forgiveness and confession: 03:08–03:46
• Walking in the Light and Fellowship: 03:50–04:44
• Isaiah 53 (“by his stripes we are healed”): 05:33–07:06
• 1 Peter 2:24 and Spiritual Healing: 07:41–08:31
• Colossians 2 (forgiveness at new birth): 09:24–10:15
• The central issue of spiritual death/life: 11:28–11:41
• The object of belief—Christ, not the cross: 12:06

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Conclusion

Bob Wilkin and Sam Marr clarify a critical distinction in Free Grace Theology: Jesus’ death removed the universal “sin barrier” (making salvation possible), but individual forgiveness, spiritual life, and fellowship with God are granted at belief and maintained through confession and walking in the light. They caution against conflating penal substitution language with the nuanced biblical evidence, highlighting that the true “object of belief” is the person of Christ, not the event of the cross itself.

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For more resources or theological articles referenced in this episode, visit: faithalone.org

Transcript

[Host]

The following is a listener supported ministry from the Grace Evangelical Society. We are continuing our discussion from the last episode. Did Jesus Pay the Penalty for Our Sins? This is part two. Welcome friend. Glad you're here today. This is Grace in Focus. It is a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. Our website is faithalone.org you can learn a lot about us there. We have a seminary, a free online seminary. It's free if you maintain a 3.0 average and if you stay at it for a few semesters, you can earn an MDiv degree. Go through the application process, get ready to study with us next semester. We'd love to have you all the details you [e-mail] and now with today's continuing discussion, here's Bob Wilkin along with Sam Marr.

[Bob Wilkin]

Alright everybody, we're jumping into our part two of Did Jesus Pay the Penalty for Our Sins? Bob, we kind of left off halfway through John 1:21. So let's pick up there. We saw that John 1:29 does not teach that Jesus blood removes the penalty for our sins. So what is John 1:29 teaching?

[Sam Marr]

John says, behold the Lamb of God who, present tense, takes away the sin of the world. But most commentators feel that this is a futuristic present because he didn't do it until he went to the cross. So they say we might even translate who will take away the sin of the world or will soon take away the sin of the world. Raymond Brown, who's a famous New Testament scholar, he said that the singular sin in John 1:29 refers to our sinful condition and that the plural sins refers to sinful actions. What he's saying is Jesus took away our sinful condition so that no longer are our sins. The issue is in eternal life. Now you asked me about so what does the death of Christ accomplish? Remember we were talking about that and I said that it accomplished different things for different groups of people. I have an article called the Benefits of Christ's Death Restricted and Unrestricted. I encourage you to go to faithalone.org and read it. But let me give you an example. John 1:29 and 1 John 2:2 apply to every single person who has ever lived or ever will live. He has removed the sin barrier for all, so that sin is no longer the issue. The issue is we're dead. We need life. However, that's not all the blood of Christ does. For one thing, at the moment that we believe in Christ, all our sins are forgiven. Colossians 2, verses 14 and 15, or Acts 10:43 so that we start the Christian life with a clean slate. And it's the blood of Christ that does that, and it doesn't do it for everybody. Forgiveness is not for the unbeliever. Until you believe, you don't get that benefit of Christ's death.

[Bob Wilkin]

But that also means when people say your sins are forgiven past, present and future, in that sense, they're not forgiven future because we need to keep confessing our sin, asking for forgiveness, and, and that's kind of our feet being washed or cleansed as we walk in our Christian life.

[Sam Marr]

That's a good point. In fact, that would be a more restricted point of the blood of Christ. Every believer gets the forgiveness of his sins up to the point at which he's born again. That's why we don't come up to a new believer and go, okay, I want you to make a list of all your sins you've committed up till now. And you need to confess those to get in fellowship with God. Right?

[Bob Wilkin]

If you're born again, you're a baby now, and babies didn't sin before they were born, right?

[Sam Marr]

So all that washed away. There's also the issue of First John 1:7, which says, if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, then the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. You see, first John 1:7, confessing our sins though we might be forgiven and cleansed only works if we're walking in the light. If we're the prodigal son in the far country, we need to repent first in order to get back in fellowship with God. It wouldn't have been enough for the prodigal son to say, oh, I've sinned against my Father. Okay, I'm good now. No, he had to go back to the Father to get back in fellowship with the Father. Same thing with us. If we're walking in the light, then we can confess our sins and have cleansing and forgiveness. But if we're not walking in the light, then the remedy is turning from our sins repentance. I think it's important to recognize the blood of Christ isn't just to make us saveable. It's also so that we have forgiveness. And it's also so we have ongoing forgiveness. And there's even a fourth thing. You remember where he said in First John, he laid down his life for us, therefore, what should we do? First John 3:16, if I look to him on the cross and I say, that's the way I should live, I should lay down my life for others, that's what I'm called. To do, right, is to love the brethren. And so that's another benefit of the blood of Christ. It points the way on how we should live. Having said all that, there are a few other verses people use to say he paid the penalty for our sins. I've got three here. Maybe we can briefly go over all three.

[Bob Wilkin]

Yep. First up is Isaiah 53, 5, 6. It says, but he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities. And by his stripes we are healed. And we, like sheep, have gone astray, and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

[Sam Marr]

Isaiah 52 and 53 deals with what's called the suffering servant, that the Messiah was not only going to come to rule and reign over Israel and the world, but he was going to first die for Israel and for the world. And that's what that talks about. But notice there's Nothing in Isaiah 52 or 52:53 that talks about paying the penalty for our sins. What it says is, by his stripes we are healed. In order to understand that one, I think we need to look to the New Testament verse that quotes that verse. A lot of people, as you know, in the charismatic movement use that expression, by his stripes we were healed. To refer to what?

[Bob Wilkin]

Physical healing.

[Sam Marr]

Right, Right. So they say either we don't get sick, or they say if you get sick, it's because you're not depending on him, and so just claim the cross and you won't have any sickness. I'm surprised that people who are charismatic ever die. Why would they die if by his stripes you were healed? Means all of our physical infirmities goes away. Why would we ever have a heart attack? Why would we ever have a stroke? Why would our heart ever stop? Why would we ever die? I mean, it would seem to me if that's physical, then we would never experience physical death.

[Host]

You are invited to subscribe to the Grace Evangelical Society's YouTube channel. You will find our month Wednesday and Friday videos there, enlightening and encouraging and even probably humorous at times. If you like Bob Wilkins humor indeed, you will get biblical truth about free grace themes like faith alone for eternal salvation and why the Grace Evangelical Society is zero point Calvinistic. We come your way three times a week at the Grace Evangelical YouTube channel. Check it out and tell a friend about the Grace Evangelical Society.

[Sam Marr]

We know from 1st Peter 2:24 what that verse is talking about, so maybe you could read that one too.

[Bob Wilkin]

Christ, who himself bore our sins in his own body on the tree. That we having died to sins, might live for righteousness. By whose stripes you were healed?

[Sam Marr]

We having died to sin by Jesus death on the cross. Did the whole world die to sin?

[Bob Wilkin]

No.

[Sam Marr]

Okay, so when do we die to sin?

[Bob Wilkin]

When you're born again.

[Sam Marr]

But then that's positionally we died to sin. Now, in terms of our experience, it's ongoing, but Romans 6:1 6 talks about this subject, and it says, when we believed in Christ, we died to sin. But notice what Peter says there. He says, having died to sin, what might live for righteousness might live for righteousness. And then isn't that when he says.

[Bob Wilkin]

By whose stripes you were healed?

[Sam Marr]

By Christ's stripes. So by Christ's stripes we are healed? Refers to having the ability to live righteously. In my experience, it's a spiritual healing. It's not talking about healing from physical death. It's a spiritual healing from the sinful acts we have. We died with him, therefore we can live with him, therefore we should live righteously. That verse doesn't say he took away sin's penalty. What? It basically says it took away sin's power, that we now have the freedom to live righteously. And that's Also Romans chapter 6, around verses 17 and 18. We're now slaves of righteousness in our position. And if we yield our members to God as instruments of righteousness, then we will live righteously. Okay, what's the third verse?

[Bob Wilkin]

Sometimes people use Colossians 2, 13, 14. And you being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he has made alive together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And he has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

[Sam Marr]

So the cross does allude to the blood of Christ, but the question is, does every single person in the world have what he's talking about there? What does he say?

[Bob Wilkin]

He made us alive together with him.

[Sam Marr]

So has every person on planet earth been made alive together with Christ? No. So who's he talking about? Believers or unbelievers?

[Bob Wilkin]

Born again believers.

[Sam Marr]

Born again believers. And what do they get?

[Bob Wilkin]

They get life with him. They get their trespasses forgiven.

[Sam Marr]

And didn't we talk about trespasses forgiven as one of the benefits of the blood of Christ at the moment of the new birth? Part of our experience is we're in fellowship with God. We start with a clean slate. We're forgiven. But that's not Talking about penalty for sin. That's talking about one of the benefits we get from the blood of Christ if we're a believer. The very fact that Jesus died on the cross does not mean that the unbeliever has died with Christ. He hasn't. The unbeliever has been made alive with Christ. He hasn't. It doesn't mean the unbeliever has the forgiveness of sins. He. He doesn't. What it means is the unbeliever is saveable. Jesus has propitiated his sin. That is, he has satisfied God concerning his sin. And so I think the thing we need to recognize is people mean well when they say Jesus paid the penalty for our sins. But biblically, what he did for the world is he removes the sin barrier. He made the world saveable. And when we evangelize, we need to make the bullseye clear. The issue is we're dead. We need life. The issue is not we're sinners. We need our sins taken away. They've already been taken away. That's the good news. We can start out with that. Jesus has already removed your sin barrier.

[Bob Wilkin]

Right. And just to be clear, there's nothing wrong with evangelizing and talking about sin and the cross and Christ's sacrifice and all of that, but what we're saying is believing those things can lead you to believe in Christ for everlasting life.

[Sam Marr]

Right?

[Bob Wilkin]

But believing in the cross, the cross doesn't give life. It's not a person that can promise life to anybody.

[Sam Marr]

That's right.

[Bob Wilkin]

Christ is a person. Who he is God. And he promised life to those who believe in him. And so the cross was a means to that end. But that is not the object of belief.

[Sam Marr]

Right. And in John's gospel, it's one of the signs. John 18:19, that's the eighth sign. And all the signs were designed to lead people to believe in Jesus for everlasting life. The heart of the Christian life is Jesus. Death, resurrection, ascension, and soon return. The blood of Christ is essential to the Christian life. But when we're talking about the penalty for sin, that's a separate issue, a separate question. I hope that helps. And in the meantime, keep grace in focus.

[Host]

Would you be interested in some free ebooks on topics you hear on this program? Well, if you are, you need to come Visit [e-mail] that's faithalone.org we would love to hear from you. Maybe you've got a question, comment, or some feedback. If you do, please don't hesitate to send us a message. Here's our email address. It's radioaithalone.org that's radioaithalone.org and when you do very important. Please let us know your radio station call letters and the city of your location on our next episode. How are iniquities passed from father to son? Be sure to join us and until then, let's keep Grace in focus. The proceeding has been a listener supported ministry from the Grace Evangelical Society.