Do Unbelievers Have a Spirit?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Grace in Focus

Episode: Do Unbelievers Have a Spirit?
Date: July 9, 2026
Hosts: Bob Wilkin, Sam Marr
Podcast: Grace Evangelical Society

---

Overview

This short, thought-provoking episode centers on a philosophical and theological question: Do unbelievers possess a spirit, or is a spirit something only received at the moment of being “born again”? Bob Wilkin and guest Sam Marr dive deeply into biblical anthropology, discussing dichotomy versus trichotomy (the two- or three-part view of human nature), biblical passages, and the implications for understanding justification, sanctification, and salvation. The dialogue is scholarly, yet accessible, and peppered with personal anecdotes that bring abstract concepts down to earth.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Framing the Listener's Question (01:15)

• Bob presents Lindsay’s philosophical question: Do unbelievers have a spirit, or does one only receive a spirit when “born again” (referencing John 3:6)?
• Sam clarifies the underlying issue: Is the human soul and spirit the same or different? Is there a biblical basis to distinguish between them?

2. Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy Debate (02:20–04:52)

• Dichotomous view: Human beings consist of body and soul/spirit (used interchangeably).
• Trichotomous view: Human beings have three parts—body, soul, and spirit.
• Bob notes, “At Dallas Seminary, you know, we debated this... Not everybody agrees.” (02:32)
• They reference Hebrews 4 ("the word of God divides as far as the division of soul and spirit") and Acts 20 (Paul on Eutychus’ “spirit”).

3. Biblical Terms: Soul and Spirit (03:45–05:22)

• Sam explains that “soul” can mean “life” or the inner self. Sometimes it’s used as a synonym for spirit; other times it's distinct.
• Bob suggests, “At birth every person has body, soul, and spirit, but... their spirit is simply a human spirit devoid of the Holy Spirit.” (03:58)

4. Adam & Eve as a Model of Humanity (04:52–06:02)

• Bob argues Adam and Eve’s pre-fall state shows humans naturally have soul and spirit—even before the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or need for everlasting life.
  • “Before they fell, they didn’t need the Holy Spirit to indwell them... they would have just lived indefinitely in their bodies.” (05:39)
• Discussion on the impact of the Fall and the process of mortality: “His cells began the gradual process of decay and death.” (06:32)

5. Spiritual Change at Salvation (06:57–09:10)

• Glorification and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are discussed as changes for believers post-salvation (references to 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4).
• Sam: “The unbeliever does not have the Holy Spirit living within him. The unbeliever does not have everlasting life.” (07:44)
• Cornelius in Acts 10 is cited as an example of “a devout man” (unbeliever) who meaningfully prays to God—suggesting an active “spirit” even before regeneration.

6. Distinction from Animals (09:10–10:33)

• Bob contends it’s problematic to say pre-conversion people lack a spirit; otherwise, “before someone's born again, they're like an animal.”
• Playful debate about whether animals have an inner self or spirit: “Does your dog have some kind of inner self? It seems like it.” (Sam, 09:33)
• They distinguish human “spirit” as unique because only humans are made in God’s image and can relate to God.

7. Analogies for Spirit and Indwelling (10:37–11:41)

• Bob uses the apartment analogy: “Maybe everyone's got a two-bedroom apartment in their heart. So your spirit's there, but it's waiting for a roommate.” (10:45)
• Sam references the booklet My Heart, Christ’s Home, where conversion is depicted as Jesus gradually occupying all areas of the heart.

8. Progressive Transformation and the Mind of Christ (11:41–12:53)

• Transformation of the believer is gradual (“a gradual transformation as the word of God invades our minds”).
• “The key element in our soul and spirit glorifying God is our mind being conformed to Christ’s mind.” (Sam, 12:15)
• Not all believers instantly receive “the mind of Christ”—it requires growth and renewal (citing 1 Corinthians 2:16).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On dichotomy vs trichotomy:
  “You're illustrating the difference between people who say there are two parts of a human... or three parts... At Dallas Seminary, you know, we debated this, it was an open discussion.”
  — Sam Marr (02:30)

• On Adam and Eve:
  “Before they fell, they didn’t need the Holy Spirit to indwell them... they would have just lived indefinitely in their bodies.”
  — Bob Wilkin (05:39)

• On Cornelius (Acts 10):
  “How can he have prayers and alms that ascend to God and please God before he’s born again? Unless there’s some kind of inner self, whether you call it soul or spirit or both, he had to be able to, in some sense, respond to God.”
  — Sam Marr (08:47)

• On comparing humans and animals:
  “If you hold to that view, you basically imply that before someone’s born again, they’re like an animal.”
  — Bob Wilkin (09:10)

• The apartment/roommate analogy:
  “Maybe everyone’s got a two-bedroom apartment in their heart. So your spirit’s there, but it’s waiting for a roommate. So you’ve got room for the Holy Spirit to move in if you’re willing.”
  — Bob Wilkin (10:45)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Framing the Listener’s Question: 01:15
• Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy: 02:20–04:52
• Biblical Definitions - Soul and Spirit: 03:45
• Adam & Eve’s Spiritual State: 04:52–06:02
• Spiritual Change at Salvation: 06:57–09:10
• Are Unbelievers Like Animals?: 09:10–10:33
• Spirit as Room for the Holy Spirit: 10:37–11:41
• Progressive Transformation: 11:41–12:53

---

Conclusion

The hosts conclude that:

• Unbelievers do have a human spirit, but it is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
• The main difference at salvation is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the potential for renewal—not the creation of an entirely new “spirit.”
• While there’s no explicit, definitive biblical answer, their synthesis supports the trichotomous view: body, soul, and spirit are present from birth, but the transformation occurs as the Holy Spirit takes up residence in the believer.
• Ongoing growth (“renewal of the mind,” “having the mind of Christ”) distinguishes the maturing Christian experience.

They encourage listeners to keep thinking “grace in focus”—to contemplate, study, and apply these truths in daily life.

---

Transcript

[A]

The following is a listener supported ministry from the Grace Evangelical Society. As human beings, we obviously have a body and we obviously have immaterial parts. Some say a soul and a spirit. Some would say just a soul. That maybe includes a spirit. But our question today is before a person becomes a believer, do they have a spirit at all? Or is a verse maybe like John 3. 6, that which is born of the spirit is spirit, suggesting that a person doesn't receive a spirit until he is born again. Let's discuss this today here on Grace in Focus. Glad you've joined us, friend. This is a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. Our website is faithalone.org you can also find similar content on our YouTube channel, YouTube Grace Evangelical Society. You'll find our short videos there. So please go and watch them and like them and tell your friends about them. Then back to our website. There's lots more there. Go there to learn a lot about us, including our events, our magazine, our online seminary. Again it's faithalone.org now with today's question and answer, here's Bob Wilkin along with Sam Marr.

[B]

Alright Bob, we've got a question from Lindsay and this is a very philosophical one. So the short version of her question is do unbelievers have a spirit? I think we got to go to John 3 where she gives a little bit more context. She says, I know we are flesh and soul. All people have the breath of life. But it seems that from John chapter three, a person doesn't have a spirit until they are born of the spirit. Or some like to say born again from above.

[C]

That which is born of flesh is flesh. That which is born of the spirit is spirit.

[B]

So the way I would map that out then, if this was my view would be a person is born. They're born into this fallen world. They're born into sin, I guess with a sin nature, depending on how you view that. But they just have a consciousness and a body, but they don't have a soul or a spirit. And so then when someone believes in Christ for everlasting life, being born again, they now have a soul for the first time. I think that's what she is presenting here.

[C]

Well now I think, see you're using soul and spirit interchangeably and she seems to be using soul and spirit differently. But, but you're illustrating the difference between people who say there are two parts of a human. That's called the dichotomous position or three parts the trichotomous position. And at Dallas Seminary, you know, we debated this, it was an open discussion. Not everybody agrees. There is a verse in Hebrews, you know, chapter four, I guess it is where the word of God divides as far as the division of soul and spirit. So a lot of people use that verse to say there are three parts to the human, the body, the physical and the immaterial. The inner person, which has two parts, the soul and the spirit. Other people say, no, soul and spirit are indivisible. They're the same thing. Well, that's a problem with that Hebrews verse because it does talk about even dividing those. So. And remember when Eutychus falls out of the window in Acts chapter 20 and Paul goes down and says his spirit is still in him, the point seems to be that as long as his spirit is still in him, he's still alive or he's capable of being brought back to life, let's put it that way. It seems he did die and that Paul did raise him. But.

[B]

Well, and throughout the New Testament, soul and life are used interchangeably, right?

[C]

Soul can be a reference to the inner self, but it often just refers to the life. I mean, like for example, Jesus laid down his life for us. That's the word soul. So sometimes soul is just life, sometimes it refers to the immaterial part of life. But what I would suggest is that at birth every person has body, soul and spirit, but that their spirit is simply a human spirit devoid of the Holy Spirit. So in that sense, when they are born again, well, now their spirit is especially energized. I don't know how you would put it, but there are people who say, yeah, the spirit is kind of like, let's say at birth the human has this slot for the spirit, but it's not filled because they don't have the Holy Spirit.

[B]

But see, I think there's a problem with that. I'm not saying that's your view, but I think the problem with that is Adam and Eve, they were humans and there's no indication that their anatomy physically and spiritually is any different than the modern day human. I mean, they lived a lot longer, right? But there's no indication that they didn't have a spirit or they had an empty slot waiting for the Holy Spirit. Because they were intended. They were created the way they were intended to be. They weren't created imperfect.

[C]

Now they were created innocent.

[B]

Right?

[C]

So they had sinned before they ate the forbidden fruit.

[A]

And.

[C]

And yet it would be fair to say, I think, is this your point, that in their innocence they did have a soul and they probably also had a spirit.

[B]

That's what I'm saying. Because they were created to be the way they were. They fell and then they needed salvation. So they needed everlasting life after the fact. But before they fell, they didn't need the Holy Spirit to indwell them and they didn't need everlasting life because they would have just lived indefinitely in their bodies. I guess.

[C]

I mean, well, yeah, if God had removed the ability for them to sin. This is kind of philosophical, but think of it this way. After we die, we're not going to sin anymore, Right? Right. As believers, once we die, we've committed our last sin.

[A]

We will return to our program content shortly, but we're taking this break to let you know that Grace and Focus is shortly going to be transitioning to digital delivery only. We've appreciated this fine radio station, and being part of its lineup has been a privilege indeed. But we're going to say goodbye to this time slot and make room for another ministry right here. You can continue to listen to Grace in Focus. Just pick the time of day anytime 247 and find us on Spotify, Apple, and many other podcast outlets.

[C]

We're not sure when we are glorified, but it appears to be at the time of the Rapture. Because Paul said in 1st Corinthians 15, in the twinkling of an eye, we're going to be changed. And in 1st Thessalonians 4, he said, the dead in Christ will rise first. So it seems like at the time of the Rapture, we will be glorified. When we are glorified, then we're never going to sin again, but we'll still have a soul and a spirit and a body. Well, Adam and Eve, before they fell, were kind of like what we will be like after we're glorified. Except for the fact that they were capable of sinning and we won't be. And once they sinned, of course they began the process of death. It took 930 years for Adam to die, but he began dying that very day. His cells began the gradual process of decay and death. So what I would argue, I hold to the trichotomous position. There's a body, there's two parts to the inner self. I don't know how you distinguish between soul and spirit, and I don't know exactly how that changes from the time the person's an unbeliever to a believer, other than, as you said, the unbeliever does not have the Holy Spirit living within him. The unbeliever does not have everlasting life. And so the believer is the one who has the potential of bringing great glory to God, and the believer is the one who's indwelt by the Holy Spirit. I would say to Lindsay. Yes, unbelievers have a spirit, a human spirit. That's why. Okay, think of Cornelius in Acts, chapter 10. Here's this Gentile centurion, someone who's called a devout man, and he's someone whose prayers and alms ascended to God. Well, how can he have prayers and alms that ascend to God and please God before he's born again? Unless there's some kind of inner self, whether you call it soul or spirit or both, he had to be able to, in some sense, respond to God.

[B]

Yeah, I think if you hold to that view, you basically imply that before someone's born again, they're like an animal. Because a lot of people would say animals don't have a spirit, they're just part of nature. Whatever. So if you're gonna make that argument, it gets pretty dicey when you try to distinguish.

[C]

I'm not even sure you can conclude that with animals. You have a dog right now, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Does your dog have some kind of inner self? It seems like it.

[B]

Well, I mean, that's all.

[C]

The dogs I've met either are really sweet, nice, or they're gnarly mean, but whatever.

[B]

Yeah. Ironically, I think animals have personality, and maybe personality is not the right word.

[C]

It may not be the right word,

[B]

person in it, but we know there is a difference. They're not made in God's image, whatever that means. The way I'm.

[C]

They probably have an inner self of some kind.

[B]

I mean, they have. They have consciousness. They have inner thought to some degree.

[C]

Remember that Balaam's donkey actually talks to Balaam when the Lord loosens his tongue. And so we would call them sentient beings, the higher animals are.

[B]

But they also can't sin, which is a difference between.

[C]

Well, that's another question. I'm not so sure animals can sin, but. Okay. It's just sometimes if an animal mauled a human, they would put the animal to death.

[B]

I don't think that's the justice system. I think that's practical.

[C]

Okay. All right.

[B]

But, yeah, with the spirit thing, the way I was thinking about it while you were talking is I don't think the view that there's an empty slot waiting for the Holy Spirit, I don't think that's correct. This isn't biblical, but maybe everyone's got a two bedroom apartment in their heart. So your spirit's there, but it's waiting for a roommate. So you've got room for the Holy Spirit to move in if you're willing.

[C]

Yeah. Munger wrote this book, My Heart, Christ's Home, and he basically used that analogy and said that when we come to faith in Christ, we really don't know all of the problems and the issues and our areas of disobedience and our wrong attitudes, our wrong actions. But over time, the Lord comes in and shows us things and we confess those things and he then more or less moves into that area of our life. Well, I don't know if that's a terrific illustration, but I know that booklet was real popular when I was on staff with Campus Crusade for Christ. And I think it has some truth in it in the sense that part of Romans 12:2, as our mind is renewed, that means our behavior is transformed. And so the transformation doesn't seem to take place instantaneously, but it's a gradual transformation as the word of God invades our minds. And so I tend to think that the key element in our soul and spirit glorifying God is our mind being conformed to Christ's mind. That's why Paul says we have the mind of Christ. In 1 Corinthians 2:16 unbelievers don't have the mind of Christ and even new believers don't yet have the mind of Christ. You've got to grow to the point where you have that. That's why Paul calls them in First Corinthians 14:16. The pneumatikoi, the spiritually minded people, you know the scriptures don't give us a direct answer, but I think our speculation is probably helpful anyway. You can think about it. And in the meantime, let's all keep grace in focus.

[A]

We would love to know where you are when you are listening to us. Please take a short minute to send us the call letters of this station and the city where you are listening and how many times a week you listen. Thank you. You will be helping us with our stewardship. Send it to radioaithalone.org that's radioaithalone.org we are so thankful for our financial partners who keep us on the air. Every gift is taxed, deductible and very much appreciated. If you'd like to find out how you can give, go to faithalone.org on our next episode. Can you have faith in Christ without 100% assurance? Is assurance always 100%? We will see you next time. And until then, let's keep Grace in focus. The proceeding has been a listener supported ministry from the Grace Evangelical Society.