Presenting Your Testimony – Conclusion

Summary

Grace in Focus — "Presenting Your Testimony – Conclusion"

Date: July 27, 2026
Hosts: Bob Wilkin & Kathryn Wright
Episode Length: 13 minutes

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Episode Overview

In the concluding episode of a series on Christian testimonies, Bob Wilkin and Kathryn Wright reflect on what makes a biblical and helpful testimony. They challenge common practices, such as using works or emotional experiences as sources of assurance, instead insisting that the foundation of assurance must be the promise of eternal life through faith in Christ. They also discuss the impact of testimonies both for adults and children, emphasizing clarity, grace, and Christ-centeredness over sensational or emotion-driven narratives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Problem with Traditional Testimonies

• Misplaced Assurance: Many testimonies rely on works or emotional experiences rather than the biblical promise of Christ.
  • Kathryn recounts her friend's concern: "Her daughter didn't have a big enough testimony." [(01:19)]
• Testimonies as Assurance: Christians sometimes point to their testimony itself ("big" or "memorable" moments) as evidence of salvation, rather than faith in Christ’s promise.
  • "So the source of assurance there is in the testimony itself that it's too small... Rather than pointing to Christ... it’s in the promise of Christ." — Kathryn [(02:15)]

2. Reframing the Testimony Structure

• Traditional Model: Often focuses on behavior before Christ, the conversion experience, and subsequent life changes.
• A Better Testimony: Kathryn suggests instead to outline:

  • What one believed before,

  • What persuaded them to believe in Christ for eternal life,

  • The evidence being the promise in Scripture, not personal change or emotional experiences.

  • "Before I came to Christ, I believed this... When I came to faith in Christ, I believed that simply by faith in Him, I have everlasting life." — Bob [(03:16)]

3. Example: Fanny Crosby’s Testimony

• Analysis: Kathryn critiques Crosby's testimony for emphasizing surrender and an emotional experience over Christ’s promise.
  • "She says that she went forward and she surrendered herself... At no point does she talk about the gift of eternal life... it’s 'I’m surrendering my life to him,' not 'He’s giving his life to me.'" — Kathryn [(05:20)]
• Experiential Focus: The danger of pointing to vague experiences — “my soul was flooded with celestial light” — that are unattainable benchmarks for unbelievers.
  • "They can’t make this experience happen for themselves… it becomes like this constant, unfulfilled goal." — Kathryn [(06:00)]

4. Assurance and Emotional Experiences

• Quoting Dr. Norm Geisler:
  "You ask me how I know he lives. He lives within my heart. He said, basically, that's heresy... Every religion in the world promises a feeling." — Bob recounting Geisler [(07:12)]

• Bob suggests a better lyric: "You ask me how I know He lives? The Bible tells me so." [(07:46)]

• Joy is Expected, But…:
  "There's nothing wrong with joy... But the joy has to be linked to truth, and especially the surrender… that’s really a discipleship issue." — Bob [(07:56)]

5. Contemporary Parallels & Rededications

• Modern Church Practice: Kathryn relates Crosby’s 1850 revivalistic experience to contemporary altar calls and emotionally charged conversions.
  • "We put people in this emotional situation where they are basing their salvation ultimately on that emotional experience…" — Kathryn [(08:36)]
• Cycle of Doubt and Rededication:
  Bob and Kathryn discuss how some are repeatedly baptized or "saved again" because of lingering doubt.
  • "People have been baptized 15 times, literally... it's heartbreaking." — Kathryn [(10:10)]

6. Testimonies and Children

• Modeling Assurance to Kids: Parents should exemplify assurance by teaching children that salvation comes by faith.
  • "If you believe this, you have it... And I don’t worry even if you fail... And I think as parents, we really have an opportunity to be an example for those kids..." — Kathryn [(10:13)]
• Biblical Example: Jesus welcomed children, making them models for simple faith.
  • "Abraham’s testimony can be summed up in one verse… He believed and it was accounted to him as righteousness. That's all that's necessary." — Kathryn [(11:42)]

7. Who’s Big in Your Testimony?

• Big Me vs. Big God:
  "What it is, is it's a big me and a little God. But the other kind of testimony is a little me and a big God... All I'm doing is believing the promise." — Bob [(11:46)-(12:10)]
• The focus should be not on self (sins, righteousness, dramatic story), but on God’s promise and faithfulness.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Our works will always foster doubt and will rob people of their assurance." — Kathryn [01:43]
• "People are looking for an experience or this big moment... rather than pointing to Christ." — Kathryn [02:15]
• "They can’t make this experience happen for themselves... it becomes like this constant, unfulfilled goal." — Kathryn [06:00]
• "You ask me how I know he lives? The Bible tells me so." — Bob (quoting Geisler) [07:46]
• "People have been baptized 15 times, literally... it's heartbreaking." — Kathryn [10:10]
• "Abraham’s testimony can be summed up in one verse... He believed and it was accounted to him as righteousness." — Kathryn [11:42]
• "It’s a big me and a little God... The other kind of testimony is a little me and a big God." — Bob [11:46-12:10]
• "Point to Jesus, don't point to yourself; point to his promise of life." — Bob [12:56]

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Important Timestamps

• 01:19: Kathryn introduces the key issue with testimonies and assurance
• 03:16: Bob and Kathryn outline a Christ-centered approach to testimonies
• 04:03-05:20: Kathryn critiques Fanny Crosby’s traditional testimony
• 07:12-07:46: Bob relays Norm Geisler's critique of experience-based assurance
• 10:10: Kathryn addresses the problem of repeated baptisms/rededications
• 11:42: Highlighting children and Abraham's simple faith as models
• 12:10-12:56: Discussion shifts to the focus—Big God, not big personal story
• 12:56: Bob's closing call to "point to Jesus" and clarify testimonies

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Actionable Takeaways

• Assurance is found only in Christ’s promise, not in personal experiences, works, or emotional moments.
• Testimonies should be Christ-centered, not self-centered.
• Parents should model gospel assurance and simplicity to children, emphasizing faith alone.
• Avoid setting up mystical or emotional barriers that might confuse or discourage genuine faith.

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Final Thoughts

This episode delivers a heartfelt, theologically rigorous argument for a reformation of how Christians share testimonies. With real-life examples, biblical insights, and pastoral wisdom, Bob and Kathryn challenge churchgoers to keep the focus on grace and the sufficiency of Christ’s promise, ensuring that testimonies build faith—not confusion or doubt.

Transcript

[A]

The following is a listener supported ministry from the Grace Evangelical Society. Welcome to Grace in Focus. We are so glad that you are with us as today we finish up a series we've been doing about testimonies. Kathryn Wright and Bob Wilken have been presenting this and today they want to just give a summary and a conclusion to remind us about what is really important when we are giving our testimony. Hello friend. Thank you for joining us today. This is Grace in Focus, a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. Our website is Faithal. Please go there to find out more about us. We have hundreds of articles there for you to read and research. And we have an online seminary, Grace Evangelical Theological Seminary, where you can earn an M. Div. Degree. We are right now in the application and registration windows for the fall semester. Applicants who are accepted can receive and maintain full scholarship because of our generous donors. So get on our website and get your application approved today if you want to study with us in the fall. Find out [e-mail] now let's get on with our discussion for the day. Here are Bob and Kathryn and Kathryn.

[B]

I thought we'd try to wrap up our discussion of testimonies. Yeah, I think you had kind of a summary.

[C]

Well, to kind of bring it full circle. We started this series talking about my friend and how she was concerned for her daughter and that her daughter didn't have a big enough testimony. I hope that through this conversation what we've pointed out is that the believer needs to understand that they can never lose their salvation, that the moment they believe in Jesus for eternal life that is eternal and can never be lost.

[B]

Right.

[C]

With the typical testimony, so often we're pointing to our works as our source of assurance. That's a problem because our works will always foster doubt and will rob people of their assurance. But if I could kind of trust draw. Another issue out here is that not only do these testimonies often point to the works for the source of assurance rather than Christ, it's even a little bit more insidious I think, than that in that we also are pointing to our testimonies as our source of assurance.

[B]

Right.

[C]

We could take it a step further. It's not just the works, but it's the testimony. So my story of my friend, she's concerned because her daughter's testimony isn't big enough. So the source of assurance there is in the testimony itself that it's too small. I think that is ultimately what's happening a lot is people are looking for an experience or this big moment which we even talked about the date. Right. People really emphasize a date. And so it's not just that they're looking for this external change, but they're looking for a moment because they want to be able to say, ah, that was it, rather than pointing to Christ. And I think that ultimately needs to be refocused. We need to focus what it is that our source of assurance, where it really truly is. And it's not in ourselves or a moment or our change or any of these things, it's in the promise of Christ.

[B]

Yeah, I really like that you're pointing out that the traditional 1, 2, 3 approach to testimonies, where before I came to Christ, this is how my works looked.

[C]

Right.

[B]

When I came to Christ, well, this is what I was anticipating doing the rest of my life. And since then, here's what my works look like. Correct. The testimony that you're suggesting is, okay, before I came to Christ, I believed this. And when I came to faith in Christ, I believed that simply by faith in Him I have everlasting life. And your part three is what persuaded me. Right.

[C]

What's the evidence? What's the evidence? And I have a quote here. So sad quote. Okay, this is a sad example. We talked about hitting the hornet's nest. I think I might be doing it again with this example, but I think it shows where the problem lies. So this is a quote from Fanny Crosby. Do you know, the hymn writer?

[B]

She wrote 5,000.

[C]

She wrote like all of them. If you grew up in a Baptist church, I'm sure you know Blessed Assurance, which is one of my favorites. She's an incredible writer, but she gave her testimony in a biography. This is what she said. She was going to revival meetings. There was a revival going on, and so she was going and. And she said, I sought peace. This is her speaking. I could not find the joy I craved. Until one evening, November 20, 1850, I arose and went forward alone. After praying, the congregation began to sing the old hymn, Alas and Did My Savior Bleed. They came to the last stanza of it, and then she said, I surrendered myself to the Savior and my very soul was flooded with celestial light. I sprang to my feet shouting, hallelujah. The reason I give this example is we're seeing both of the issues as I look at testimonies. The first one is she says that she went forward and she surrendered herself. So at no point does she talk about the gift of eternal life. At no point does she talk about assurance. At no point does she talk about Christ giving her this life. It's she's giving her life, right? It's I'm surrendering my life to him, not he's giving his life to me.

[B]

That's good.

[C]

And so that's problem number one. But that's the distinction we want to make. And then the other thing that I think is maybe we haven't talked about as much or as clearly, why I want to emphasize it here, is that she talks about her soul being flooded with this celestial light. And that sounds so ethereal and, you know, it's beautiful and it's kind of this, but it's so abstract. And so if you're speaking to an unbeliever and you're pointing to some sort of experience like that, which is very common in these testimonies, how does an unbeliever achieve that? How does an unbeliever say, okay, I want to be flooded with celestial light? They don't. That's so abstract that it becomes meaningless and it becomes like this constant, unfulfilled goal that they can't conjure up, right? They can't make this experience happen for themselves. And so not only do testimonies like this represent an issue when it's talking about the works and surrendering and this life change, but on the other side of that spectrum, it's a problem because we're pointing people to an experience rather than Christ as well right now, hopefully.

[B]

Fanny Crosby, subsequent to this point, came to faith, and her hymn Blessed Assurance seemingly would suggest that unless her assurance was based on a feeling. But I remember Dr. Norm Geisler. I only had him for one class at Dallas Seminary, but had him for a class on apologetics, the defense of the faith. He made the comment, you know the song we sing about you ask me how I know he lives. He lives within my heart. He said, basically, that's heresy. The Buddhist will tell you they know Buddhism is true because they've had an experience. And the Mormon will tell you that Mormonism is true because they've had the burning in the bosom, right? They've had an experience. And he said, pretty much every religion in the world promises a feeling.

[A]

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[B]

He said that line should say, you asked me how I know he lives. The Bible tells me so. And the same thing is true with Fanny Crosby's testimony. It should have been. I recognized at that point Jesus guaranteed me everlasting life simply by faith in him. And I had joy when I realized I was secure forever. There's nothing wrong with the joy. No, but the joy has to be linked to truth, and especially the surrender. There's nothing wrong with surrendering to Jesus either, but that's really a discipleship issue. Although an unbeliever can surrender to Jesus and then later come to faith. But it's sad, I think, when people's testimonies center around works or feelings. When she says, I surrendered, it's almost like a pledge to do works.

[C]

Correct. Really? I think it's kind of an interesting study because this is in 1850, and we look at churches today, and we see a very similar setup because she's talking about going to church and the music is playing, and it's a great song. And she goes forward, and it's in the third line of that stanza. And then it's just this emotional buildup. And I think we see a very similar scenario in a lot of our churches today where we put people in this emotional situation where they are basing their salvation ultimately on that emotional experience rather than the truth of what scriptures are saying. And we need to be very careful with that because our emotions are deceptive.

[B]

Yeah. We had a booklet in Campus Crusade for Christ, how a person could be sure. It was a confusing booklet because it basically said, when you invite Jesus into your heart, well, then you should be certain that he's there and he's never leaving. And so you can rejoice in that and thank God for that. And so the booklet said, let's say you've done this in the past, but you're having doubts. Go ahead and do this one last time. But this one is serious. Now I'm really inviting him in. And the problem with this approach is the next time they lack assurance, they do it again.

[C]

I was about to say rededications, Right? We hear this all the time. Or I got saved again, or I had to get baptized again because I wasn't truly saved the first time I did it. And so people have been baptized 15 times, literally. I mean, this happens.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

It's heartbreaking. And so, yes, it impacts people severely. That's why I think this conversation is important. I also just wanted to talk about real briefly the idea of children you know, I think a lot of our listeners, at least I hope, you know, are parents and that they're raising kids and they are an example. Going back to the story of my friend, as parents, they have such a great opportunity to exemplify assurance, you know, to say, no, if you believe this, you have it. And I don't worry even if you fail. Even if. Because your child's gonna fail. And I think as parents, we really have an opportunity to be an example for those kids and being confident that, hey, this is what the Lord has promised in worship. And you can be sure, too. I think that what's funny to me is, you know, in the passage in Matthew 19, when children come to the Lord and the disciples rebuke and say, get away. Go, go away. We don't. We don't want you here. And the Lord says, no, I want the children here. I think sometimes we do the exact same thing. And I want to point out it's the disciples who are doing this. It's believers who are diminishing the children. Don't we do that in our churches? When it comes to testimonies about who we point to as like, the best example, we go to the adult and the big stories and the celestial light or, you know, these big moments. Rather than saying, no, let's look to children and show that it really is just by simple faith. And they are our example. And those are the ones. That's the preference of our Savior. Abraham's testimony can be summed up in one verse, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

He believed and it was accounted to him as righteousness. That's all that's necessary.

[B]

Lots of testimonies that are looking for the big testimony, Right? They do have a big testimony. But what it is, it's a big me and a little God. But the other kind of testimony is a little me and a big God. Really, it's not about me at all. It's just about God and the promise he made and that he's trustworthy. And all I'm doing is believing the promise.

[C]

That's exactly right.

[B]

And so in this one, who's big? Is it God that's big, or is it me that's big? And when you point at your works, it ultimately sounds like you're saying, this is something I did. Because God doesn't force us to do these works.

[C]

Right?

[B]

What we need to recognize, it's not about our sins. It's not about our righteousness. It's not about comparing our good deeds and bad deeds. It's not about comparing ourselves, not even comparing ourselves with Jesus, only in the sense that we recognize we fall short of the glory of God and that only by faith in Christ do we have everlasting life. So. Well, we better wrap up. Thank you, Katharine. This is great stuff and I'd encourage all of you to get your testimony clear. Point to Jesus, don't point to yourself, point to his promise of life. And whatever you do, keep grace in focus.

[A]

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