Podcast Summary
Podcast: Grace in Focus
Host: Grace Evangelical Society
Episode: Should We Be Doing Good in Order to Have Everlasting Life? – John 5:28-29
Date: September 5, 2025
Speakers: Bob Wilkin & Ken Yates
Overview
In this 13-minute episode, Bob Wilkin and Ken Yates tackle the challenging question: Should we be doing good in order to have eternal life, according to John 5:28-29? The hosts explore how this "problem passage" interacts with broader New Testament teaching on salvation by faith alone, contrast traditional interpretations, and highlight insights from theologian John Niemelä. The discussion is situated in the context of Free Grace Theology, focusing on justification, assurance, and the distinct roles of faith and works.
Key Discussion Points
1. The Problem Passage: John 5:28-29
[01:41-03:19]
- Bob introduces John 5:28-29, noting its challenge to Free Grace readers:
"Those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation."
- Ken highlights the contradiction they feel with the Gospel’s repeated message of “believe, believe, believe” for everlasting life.
- Ken notes he previously taught the view that in this passage, "doing good" meant "believing in Jesus," mirroring views held by Zane Hodges.
2. Traditional Interpretation: Doing Good = Believing
[03:19-05:50]
- Ken and Bob cite their earlier approach: interpret unclear passages in light of clear ones, seeing “doing good” as shorthand for faith.
- Bob recognizes the interpretive instinct:
"What do I do with this passage, you know, that seems to contradict what the clear passage says? ... I'm going to interpret this unclear passage by the clear passage of John 3:16, John 5:24." [05:01]
- They both see this as an acceptable hermeneutical strategy, though potentially an oversimplification.
3. John Niemelä’s Insight: The Plural “Good Things”
[05:51-07:12]
- Ken credits theologian John Niemelä for a more nuanced understanding:
"John Niemelä pointed out something ... The good is ta agatha, which is the good things plural."
- Bob admits, despite knowing it was plural, he hadn’t considered its full implications.
He recognizes the validity of Niemelä’s point upon reflection.
4. Parallel with Romans 2: Justification by Works—If It Were Possible
[07:12-08:06]
- Bob summarizes Niemelä’s stance:
"If anyone would do good works, then they would get resurrection of life." [07:12]
- Ken elaborates, “They would have to be perfect good works from the moment of new birth till death” – which, as Paul notes, is impossible for anyone.
5. The Impossible Standard and Universal Need for Grace
[08:06-09:10]
- Ken connects to Romans 2:13, “the doers of the law will be justified,” but points out Paul’s argument:
"Paul then goes on to say, of course, there are none [righteous]. ... So John Nyamla argues that Jesus is saying the same thing Paul says in Romans chapters two and three." [08:05]
- Bob rephrases Niemelä’s insight:
“You’ll either deal with him as one who gives you eternal life or as the judge.” [09:08]
6. Assurance for the Believer and Distinction in Judgment
[09:10-10:33]
- Ken clarifies that even believers are judged by Jesus, but not regarding eternal destiny:
"But not in reference to whether we're going to be in the kingdom or not." [09:23]
- Bob restates:
“The believer will not stand at the Great White Throne judgment.” [09:53]
- They contrast the fate of believers (whose names are in the book of life by faith) and unbelievers (who face judgement at the Great White Throne).
7. Revisiting Their Interpretation: Openness to Better Readings
[11:36-12:11]
- Ken balances respect for previous interpretations with humility:
"But Niemelä’s view illustrates the fact that we ought to be open to the fact that maybe there's a better interpretation." [12:00]
- Bob shares how even Zane Hodges changed his mind after speaking with Niemelä:
“He approached Zane and said, what do you think? And Zane said, 'I think you're right, John.' He goes, besides, that's my view of Romans 2 and 3.” [12:11]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
On the Challenge of John 5:28-29
- Ken Yates:
“Well, we know in the Gospel of John, John says a hundred times, believe, believe, believe ... and the only thing that the unbeliever is called to do is believe in Jesus for eternal life.” [02:55]
On Proper Interpretation
- Bob Wilkin:
“It's understandable why someone like me would come to that view ... because you say, okay, I know from the clear passage that all you have to do is believe.” [04:20]
On the Needle’s Eye of Good Works
- Ken Yates:
“Of course, they would have to be perfect good works from the moment of new birth till death. But if a person did nothing but the good things ... then yes, they could have the resurrection of the just.” [07:12]
On Human Inability and Grace
- Bob Wilkin:
“But Paul then goes on to say, of course, there are none. In Romans 3, 9, 20, there are none righteous. No, not one. ... And so John Niemelä argues that Jesus is saying the same thing Paul says in Romans chapters two and three.” [08:05]
On the Two Ways to Face Jesus
- Bob Wilkin:
“You'll either deal with him as one who gives you eternal life or the judge.” [09:08]
On Openness to Growth in Understanding
- Ken Yates:
“Niemelä’s view illustrates the fact that we ought to be open to the fact that maybe there's a better interpretation.” [12:00]
Timestamps for Important Segments
| Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------------------------------|------------| | Office banter & intro to problem passage | 00:48–01:49| | Framing the John 5 dilemma | 01:49–03:19| | Discussing traditional interpretation | 03:19–05:50| | Insights from John Niemelä | 05:51–07:12| | Romans 2 parallel & impossibility of perfection| 07:12–08:06| | Distinction between believer/unbeliever judgment| 09:10–10:33| | Zane Hodges’ shift and openness to correction | 12:11–12:26|
Conclusion
Bob and Ken’s conversation illustrates how even seasoned interpreters must reevaluate their views in light of the biblical languages and broader context. They model humility and theological clarity: salvation is by faith alone, and John 5:28-29 echoes the impossible standard of perfect works found in Romans 2—a standard only Christ meets. For everyone else, the only way to "the resurrection of life" is through believing in Jesus, not by accumulating good deeds.
Ken Yates (12:00): “We ought to be open to the fact that maybe there’s a better interpretation.”
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