Should We Be Doing Good in Order to Have Everlasting Life? – John 5:28-29

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: Grace in Focus
Host: Grace Evangelical Society
Episode: Should We Be Doing Good in Order to Have Everlasting Life? – John 5:28-29
Date: September 5, 2025
Speakers: Bob Wilkin & Ken Yates

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Overview

In this 13-minute episode, Bob Wilkin and Ken Yates tackle the challenging question: Should we be doing good in order to have eternal life, according to John 5:28-29? The hosts explore how this "problem passage" interacts with broader New Testament teaching on salvation by faith alone, contrast traditional interpretations, and highlight insights from theologian John Niemelä. The discussion is situated in the context of Free Grace Theology, focusing on justification, assurance, and the distinct roles of faith and works.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The Problem Passage: John 5:28-29

[01:41-03:19]

• Bob introduces John 5:28-29, noting its challenge to Free Grace readers:

  "Those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation."

• Ken highlights the contradiction they feel with the Gospel’s repeated message of “believe, believe, believe” for everlasting life.
• Ken notes he previously taught the view that in this passage, "doing good" meant "believing in Jesus," mirroring views held by Zane Hodges.

2. Traditional Interpretation: Doing Good = Believing

[03:19-05:50]

• Ken and Bob cite their earlier approach: interpret unclear passages in light of clear ones, seeing “doing good” as shorthand for faith.
• Bob recognizes the interpretive instinct:

  "What do I do with this passage, you know, that seems to contradict what the clear passage says? ... I'm going to interpret this unclear passage by the clear passage of John 3:16, John 5:24." [05:01]

• They both see this as an acceptable hermeneutical strategy, though potentially an oversimplification.

3. John Niemelä’s Insight: The Plural “Good Things”

[05:51-07:12]

• Ken credits theologian John Niemelä for a more nuanced understanding:

  "John Niemelä pointed out something ... The good is ta agatha, which is the good things plural."

• Bob admits, despite knowing it was plural, he hadn’t considered its full implications.
  He recognizes the validity of Niemelä’s point upon reflection.

4. Parallel with Romans 2: Justification by Works—If It Were Possible

[07:12-08:06]

• Bob summarizes Niemelä’s stance:

  "If anyone would do good works, then they would get resurrection of life." [07:12]

• Ken elaborates, “They would have to be perfect good works from the moment of new birth till death” – which, as Paul notes, is impossible for anyone.

5. The Impossible Standard and Universal Need for Grace

[08:06-09:10]

• Ken connects to Romans 2:13, “the doers of the law will be justified,” but points out Paul’s argument:

  "Paul then goes on to say, of course, there are none [righteous]. ... So John Nyamla argues that Jesus is saying the same thing Paul says in Romans chapters two and three." [08:05]

• Bob rephrases Niemelä’s insight:

  “You’ll either deal with him as one who gives you eternal life or as the judge.” [09:08]

6. Assurance for the Believer and Distinction in Judgment

[09:10-10:33]

• Ken clarifies that even believers are judged by Jesus, but not regarding eternal destiny:

  "But not in reference to whether we're going to be in the kingdom or not." [09:23]

• Bob restates:

  “The believer will not stand at the Great White Throne judgment.” [09:53]

• They contrast the fate of believers (whose names are in the book of life by faith) and unbelievers (who face judgement at the Great White Throne).

7. Revisiting Their Interpretation: Openness to Better Readings

[11:36-12:11]

• Ken balances respect for previous interpretations with humility:

  "But Niemelä’s view illustrates the fact that we ought to be open to the fact that maybe there's a better interpretation." [12:00]

• Bob shares how even Zane Hodges changed his mind after speaking with Niemelä:

  “He approached Zane and said, what do you think? And Zane said, 'I think you're right, John.' He goes, besides, that's my view of Romans 2 and 3.” [12:11]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the Challenge of John 5:28-29

• Ken Yates:

  “Well, we know in the Gospel of John, John says a hundred times, believe, believe, believe ... and the only thing that the unbeliever is called to do is believe in Jesus for eternal life.” [02:55]

On Proper Interpretation

• Bob Wilkin:

  “It's understandable why someone like me would come to that view ... because you say, okay, I know from the clear passage that all you have to do is believe.” [04:20]

On the Needle’s Eye of Good Works

• Ken Yates:

  “Of course, they would have to be perfect good works from the moment of new birth till death. But if a person did nothing but the good things ... then yes, they could have the resurrection of the just.” [07:12]

On Human Inability and Grace

• Bob Wilkin:

  “But Paul then goes on to say, of course, there are none. In Romans 3, 9, 20, there are none righteous. No, not one. ... And so John Niemelä argues that Jesus is saying the same thing Paul says in Romans chapters two and three.” [08:05]

On the Two Ways to Face Jesus

• Bob Wilkin:

  “You'll either deal with him as one who gives you eternal life or the judge.” [09:08]

On Openness to Growth in Understanding

• Ken Yates:

  “Niemelä’s view illustrates the fact that we ought to be open to the fact that maybe there's a better interpretation.” [12:00]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------------------------------|------------| | Office banter & intro to problem passage | 00:48–01:49| | Framing the John 5 dilemma | 01:49–03:19| | Discussing traditional interpretation | 03:19–05:50| | Insights from John Niemelä | 05:51–07:12| | Romans 2 parallel & impossibility of perfection| 07:12–08:06| | Distinction between believer/unbeliever judgment| 09:10–10:33| | Zane Hodges’ shift and openness to correction | 12:11–12:26|

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Conclusion

Bob and Ken’s conversation illustrates how even seasoned interpreters must reevaluate their views in light of the biblical languages and broader context. They model humility and theological clarity: salvation is by faith alone, and John 5:28-29 echoes the impossible standard of perfect works found in Romans 2—a standard only Christ meets. For everyone else, the only way to "the resurrection of life" is through believing in Jesus, not by accumulating good deeds.

Ken Yates (12:00): “We ought to be open to the fact that maybe there’s a better interpretation.”

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Transcript

[A]

The following is a listener supported ministry.

[B]

From the Grace Evangelical Society according to.

[A]

John 5, 28 and 29. Should we be doing good in order to have eternal life? Obviously we should be doing good, but does that help us to get eternal life? Thank you for being here today. This is Grace in Focus. We come to you each weekday and this is the broadcast and podcast of the Grace Evangelical Society. Our website is faithalone.org and one thing on that website is our bookstore. Our leader, Bob Wilkins latest book, Grace is Still Under Siege is available at our bookstore. Find [e-mail] and now with today's discussion, here is Bob Wilkins along with Ken.

[B]

Yates in the what would we say, illustrious GES offices here. Very illustrious. Yeah, we're living high on the hog.

[C]

We never describe it to people, but what we're at is a little table in the corner of my office. And my office isn't that big to start with. It's maybe, I don't know, 20 by 15 or something. Maybe less than that. Maybe 15 by 15. And we've got a corner of it that's about what, 8ft by about 8ft. Just behind you is a group of bookshelves. Just behind me is my desk and then there's other bookshelves over here. The whole thing is kind of chaotic. We may get a new office. Right now we're in 1,000 square feet total and we might want to get larger, but we'll see. But anyway, what do you have for us today in terms of a passage? I think it's something from the Gospel of John as a problem passage.

[B]

A problem passage in the Gospel of John and in our series here. I think this is the first one we've done in the Gospel of John.

[C]

Right. And this is from your class on tough text.

[B]

Right. So if you listen to this podcast and you do decide to take the whole class, you'll already be 1 13th of the way done. You already know what we're talking about. This is from John chapter five. And I'm just going to say right off the bat, I am heavily indebted. What I'm going to say to John Nyamila. I can't remember how long ago, Bob, at the conference, by the way, a plug for the national conference for those who have never been in May here, right outside of Denton, Texas. And we have a conference every year. And at one of these conferences, John Neemola spoke on this particular passage in John 5, 28, 29. Here is what the Lord has to say. Do not marvel at this for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear his voice and come forth. Now, here's where the tricky part comes in. Those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation. Okay, Anybody who is familiar with the Gospel of John, this is kind of shocking. Those who have done good will experience the resurrection of life. Well, we know in the Gospel of John, John says a hundred times, believe, believe, believe. And the only thing that the unbeliever is called to do is believe in Jesus for eternal life.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So what does he mean here when he says, those who have done good to the resurrection of life and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation? I will tell you that for a long time I thought that what that meant was the good there, those who have done good to the resurrection of life was saying, well, the good is believe in Jesus.

[C]

Yeah. And I have an article I wrote on that, and I actually defended that view in that the bad was not believing in Jesus.

[B]

That's probably why I believed what I did for so long, because I read your. Your article.

[C]

It probably was.

[B]

And I know that Zane Hodges, who was my favorite Prof. In seminary, that was his view, that the good there is believing in Jesus and the bad is not believing in Jesus.

[C]

Yeah. But John Niemela pointed out something that I think I had overlooked. The good is ta, Agatha, which is the good things plural.

[B]

Now, let me just say something about that. I knew that that was plural, but that did not deter me. I still believe that, you know, if you'd asked me, I would have said, well, this is because he's talking about all the people, you know, so he's talking to a group of people. So, you know, many people. You know, there's going to be many people who didn't believe. And so that's why it's in the plural. Now, I know that's a weak argument, but that's. That's how I. And by the way, it's understandable why someone like me would come to that view. You know, it's understandable why, because you say, okay, I know from the clear passage that all you have to do is believe.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And so what do I do with this passage? You know, that seems to contradict what the clear passage says. So we say, well, I think it means this, you know, I'm going to interpret this unclear passage by the clear passage of John 3, 16, John 5, 24. By the way, this is in John 5, as we said, in verses 28, 29. What did he just say four verses earlier?

[C]

Yeah. In John 5. 24, he who hears my word and believes in him who sent me has everlasting life.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And so shall not come into pass from death into life. It's just a matter of believing.

[B]

Right. And so four verses later we have the good. I think it's understandable and I might even say acceptable to say, well, he just said very clearly believe in him. And then he says, if you do the good, you know, you'll. You'll have resurrection of life. Well, the good is what he just said.

[C]

Yeah. And like I say, I did hold that view and did recommend that view, but I like Nemla's view. And what is his view?

[B]

Okay, John Amla's view is. And I just really appreciated this. You're right, Bob. He. He pointed out that the good here is goods he who has done the good things for resurrection of life, plural, that it's talking about good works. And then he says those who have done the evil things to a resurrection of condemnation. John Amla's view is what Paul argues in Romans 2.

[A]

Did you know that the Grace Evangelical Society offers an M. Div. Degree through our online seminary? And tuition is free to those who maintain a 3.0 grade average. It is a three year degree program and you could submit your application now to gain acceptance. Then stay apprised of our registration periods for upcoming semester terms. Program and application details can be [e-mail] have a look at our MDIV degree. Become an approved workman. Find out how gesseminary.org.

[B]

John the AMLA's view is what Paul argues in Romans 2, right? That if anyone would do good works, then they would get resurrection of life.

[C]

Of course they would have to be perfect good works from the moment of new birth till death. But if a person did nothing but the good things, without any sinful things, they didn't violate God's commands in any way, then yes, they could have the resurrection of the just.

[B]

Right?

[C]

But Neomela's point is there's nobody like that because that's also what Romans 2:13 says.

[B]

Let me read Romans 2:13.

[C]

And some people misinterpret Romans 2:13 just like they misinterpret John 5, 28, 29.

[B]

Right? As if I could do those things. Or if you're truly saved, I guess is the way they would probably say that. In Romans 2:13 Paul writes, For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but The doers of the law will be justified. But Paul then goes on to say, of course there are none.

[C]

Right.

[B]

In Romans 3, 9, 20, there are none righteous. No, not one. There's none who do good. All, like sheep, have turned astray. And so John Nyamla argues that Jesus is saying the same thing Paul says in Romans chapters two and three. And so verse 24, as I recall John Niemela's presentation at the conference, he who believes in me has eternal life. Okay, that's one way we can approach Christ, believe in him and have eternal life, or we can try to do it on our own works. And Jesus says, all judgment here in these verses has been given to me. So do you want to stand before the Lord as a believer who's been declared righteous and received eternal life, or do you want to stand before him as your judge? All judgments have been given to him. And if you've done the good, then you'll have resurrection of life. But of course there is none. And I think John the Amalest said it this way. You'll either deal with him as one who gives you eternal life or the judge.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And so that's what these verses are talking about.

[C]

Of course, John wouldn't deny, and we wouldn't deny that even if we've believed in him for the free gift of eternal life, he still is our judge.

[B]

Right. But not in reference to whether we're going to be in the kingdom or not.

[C]

Right. John 5, 24. There's three references. Past, present, future. He who hears my word and believes in who sent me, present tense. Has everlasting life, shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. The shall not come into judgment means there's not going to be a judgment concerning what the other two parts are talking about. Has everlasting life, has passed from death into life.

[B]

We would say the believer will not stand at the Great White Throne judgment.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

That's the point.

[C]

But believers will be judged at the judgments seat of Christ. James says. James 5, 9. The judge is standing at the door.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Judge, capital J. The Lord Jesus is standing at the door. So he is going to be our judge, but not in terms of our judge for our eternal destiny. So if we meet him as the giver of life, the Messiah, giver of life, then we're not going to meet him at the Great White Throne Judgment. Telling us by because your name's not in the book of life. Our name is in the book of life because we believe.

[B]

Yeah. And the verse that I was Referencing to just a few minutes ago is right before John 5:24, when Jesus says in verse 22, for the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son. John writes this to unbeliever the book, to tell them how to have eternal life. So the judgment here, then, when he's talking about you will not be judged in John 5:24, is you won't stand before him at the Great White Throne judgment. That's the issue here. So I think you really worded it well, and it may be the way John did it as well. John the Imola, that you'll either deal with him as Christ who gives eternal life through faith alone, or you will stand before him at the Great White Throne and he's going to judge you. The books are going to be open, and all will fall short as the books in Revelation 20:11, 15 for unbelievers are opened. Those who've done good, you're good to go. But there is none.

[C]

Right?

[B]

And again, that is exactly what Paul says in Romans 2, 3.

[C]

Okay, so let's wrap this up. I think that the view that you and I both held before we heard John Niemos is one that is consistent with John 3:16.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

It is consistent with Ephesians 2:8,9. And it does work. In fact, the new King James translates this. Those who have done good. It doesn't say, those who have done the good things plural.

[B]

Right.

[C]

But Niemo's view illustrates the fact that we ought to be open to the fact that maybe there's a better interpretation.

[B]

I agree.

[C]

And once I heard his interpretation, I'm like, that's better.

[B]

And you know what's interesting is Zane Hodges held our view, too. And he told in the conference that he approached Zane and said, what do you think? And Zane said, I think you're right, John. He goes, besides, that's my view of Romans 2 and 3.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So that was great. So I appreciated that.

[C]

Well, thanks so much, Ken, and thank you all. And remember, keep grace in focus.

[A]

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[B]

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