What is the Forgiving and the Retaining of Sins in John 20:23?

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: Grace in Focus
Host: Grace Evangelical Society
Episode Title: What is the Forgiving and the Retaining of Sins in John 20:23?
Date: November 5, 2025
Hosts: Ken Yates & Katharine Wright

In this thought-provoking 13-minute episode, Ken Yates and Katharine Wright dig into the often controversial passage of John 20:23, where Jesus speaks to His disciples about forgiving and retaining sins. The duo explores what Jesus meant in this context, distinguishes different types of forgiveness, and wrestles with the tension between biblical mandates and common Christian practice, especially in the context of church life and real-world tragedy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Understanding John 20:23 (01:00–02:04)

• Scripture Quoted:

  “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

• Experiential Forgiveness vs. Positional Forgiveness:
  • Ken Yates clarifies that Jesus is addressing the disciples regarding experiential fellowship with God and with one another, not eternal salvation.
  • The church has both a message and a practice: When a believer confesses and repents, the church forgives and restores fellowship; when a person does not repent, forgiveness (and fellowship) is withheld.

2. The Limits of Forgiveness in Church Practice (02:04–03:38)

• Challenging “Unconditional Forgiveness”:
  • Many Christians assert, “we just need to forgive no matter what” (Ken, 02:15), but Yates and Wright contest this view.
• Matthew 18 as Precedent:
  • Ken references the process described by Jesus: repeatedly approaching a sinning brother, escalating to church involvement, and ultimately, if there is no repentance, breaking fellowship.

  • “When we sin, and [the offender] does not listen...then you treat him as a Gentile...” (Ken, 01:40)

3. Why Withholding Forgiveness is Controversial (03:08–03:51)

• Western Church Practice:
  • Katharine questions why church discipline is so rare in the West, noting people often “just go down to the church next door.”
• Practical Example:
  • Ken’s experience: confronting church members about sin rarely leads to excommunication; more often, the unrepentant simply leave.

4. Modern Example: Forgiveness in the Face of Tragedy (03:51–06:32)

• Case Study – Texas High School Stabbing:
  • Katharine recounts a recent story where a father publicly forgave his son’s murderer within hours of his son’s death:

    “He said...‘I’m a Christian and I just know God will take care of this. And I’ve already forgiven him. The forgiveness is for me, for my peace of mind.’” (Katharine, 04:38)

  • The father attempts to join the murderer's family at their press conference for “solidarity,” but is rebuffed and escorted out by police. The murderer's family blames external factors and refuses his gesture.

5. Should Forgiveness Be Extended in Such Situations? (07:07–09:44)

• Evaluating the Father’s Actions:
  • Ken: “Should the father have done that? If we define forgiveness as fellowship, what kind of fellowship does he have with this family?” (07:35)
  • Katharine emphasizes the lack of relationship and questions the substance of forgiveness when there is no existing fellowship: “If forgiveness is indeed restoration of fellowship, how can there be forgiveness when no fellowship exists?” (08:00)
• Biblical Nuance:
  • The episode questions the widespread interpretation that Christians must universally forgive, comparing it to how Christ forgives: “Does the Lord just forgive unconditionally, just all the time, universally, no matter what? Or does the Lord refrain from forgiveness when unrepentant people are continuing in their ways?” (Katharine, 10:01)

6. Forgiving as Christ Forgave Us (09:55–11:14)

• Ephesians' Command Reconsidered:
  • Katharine points to the injunction that Christians “forgive as Christ forgave us,” arguing for a conditional element:

    “He withholds forgiveness. We’re out of fellowship with him when we sin, He just doesn’t say, ‘Okay, well, it doesn’t matter.’” (Ken, 10:39)

  • Ken asserts that ongoing, unrepentant sin leads to a break in fellowship until there is confession and repentance.

7. Justice as Love and the Role of Consequences (11:25–12:45)

• Justice is Loving:
  • Katharine and Ken both suggest that seeking justice can be the loving choice:

    “Justice is also a form of love. ...What is the most loving thing for [the murderer]? That he would face the consequences of his actions, which he's not doing.” (Katharine, 11:59; Ken, 11:59)

  • They warn that prematurely offering forgiveness (“I just forgive you”) can be “hateful towards him”—it absolves the person of consequences which might otherwise prompt repentance.
• Matthew 18 Principle:
  • The temporary exclusion from fellowship is intended, as with the “prodigal son,” to lead to eventual restoration.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ken Yates [02:15]: “Many Christians say, well, we just need to forgive no matter what, unconditionally. And we ended that previous podcast with saying no. The Lord says, and there are some sins that we retain, we do not forgive.”
• Katharine Wright [04:36]: “The father of the victim came out the day of and had a press conference and he said publicly, ‘I’ve already forgiven the murderer.’ ...He said, ‘I’m a Christian and I just know God will take care of this.’”
• Katharine Wright [08:00]: “If forgiveness is indeed restoration of fellowship, how can there be forgiveness when no fellowship exists?”
• Ken Yates [10:39]: “He withholds forgiveness. We’re out of fellowship with him when we sin, he just doesn’t say, ‘Okay, well, it doesn’t matter.’”
• Katharine Wright [11:25]: “Justice is also a form of love. ... What is the most loving thing for him? That he would face the consequences of his actions, which he’s not doing.”
• Ken Yates [12:04]: “For us to say, ‘Well, I just forgive you,’ that's hateful towards him, right?”

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Summary | |-----------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:00 | Introduction and reading of John 20:23 scene. | | 02:04 | Differentiation between experiential and positional forgiveness. | | 03:51 | Real-life example: Father forgiving son's killer, publically and immediately. | | 07:07 | Discussion on whether the father's forgiveness was appropriate or biblical in this situation. | | 09:55 | Re-examining “forgiving as Christ forgave us”—conditional or unconditional? | | 11:25 | Biblical justice as a manifestation of love; the role of church discipline and consequences for restoration. |

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Conclusion

Ken Yates and Katharine Wright offer a countercultural perspective, arguing for a biblical forgiveness rooted in repentance and fellowship, rather than the blanket “forgive no matter what” approach common in modern Christianity. Using both Scripture and a contemporary tragedy, they highlight that love sometimes requires withholding forgiveness and seeking justice as a path to restoration. The discussion is both theologically rich and pastorally sensitive, challenging listeners to rethink easy assumptions about forgiveness in the Christian life.

Transcript

[A]

The following is a listener supported ministry from the Grace Evangelical Society.

[B]

In John 20:23, Jesus tells his disciples that they should either forgive the sins of others or retain the sins of others. What is Jesus talking about here? Well, let's discuss that today here on Grace and Focus. So glad you are joining us. Grace and Focus is a ministry of the Grace Evangelical Society. Find [e-mail] and I want to tell you today about our magazine. It is also Grace in Focus. It is a wonderful publication that comes out six times per year, full size magazine, full color, great articles. It is free. The only thing you'll need to pay if you live Outside of the 48 contiguous United States is the postage. Otherwise we want you to have it. Sign up for it [e-mail] and now with today's question and answer discussion, here are Ken Yates and Katharine Wright.

[A]

Kathryn, we just did a podcast for from Charlie, that's right, on John chapter 20, verse 23, verse 23 where it talks about, well, we'll go ahead and read it again.

[C]

Says if so this Lord's speaking and he's speaking to the disciples. And he says, if you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained.

[A]

And our basic position was that the Lord is talking to the disciples. This is what we as believers call experiential forgiveness. In other words, if we want to remain in fellowship with the Lord, that's right, we need our sins forgiven and the church. It's not only the church's message but also the practice that when someone confesses, we forgive them of their sins and when they don't. And this is why we thought we needed part two here on Charlie's Great Question. We don't forgive.

[C]

That's right, we withhold forgiveness.

[A]

This is a controversial thing because there are, I don't know if we would say many, but I think probably so many Christians say, well, we just need.

[C]

To forgive no matter what, no matter what, unconditionally.

[A]

And we ended that previous podcast with saying no. The Lord says, and there are some sins that we retain we do not forgive. And of course we can think, for example, in Matthew 18 when Jesus is talking to the disciples and he says if your brother sins against you, you go to him and if he does not listen and then you take two or three more witnesses and he still doesn't listen. And then he goes before the church and he still doesn't listen, then you treat him as a gentile, as a heathen, and obviously he's talking about experientially, the fellowship with that believer is broken.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

So there is no forgiveness there. And even though this is controversial, I don't understand why it is.

[C]

I guess just the church in the west, you know, if somebody doesn't like their church, they can just go walk down to the one next door. But yeah, we don't. I don't know. In my experience, I don't think I've ever seen anybody excommunicated from a church.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Where they were told they had to.

[A]

Right. I mean, I've heard stories of it.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

And I have been involved where we confronted people with sin and they just left.

[C]

Right. They just go down to the church and they know.

[A]

And so that happens. But Catherine and I thought we would talk a little bit about this idea of withholding forgiveness. Withholding forgiveness. And you have a contemporary example of something we're talking.

[C]

Well, I feel like we should say too, this has been an ongoing discussion within ges, but you know, between us and some friends for probably a couple years now, that forgiveness is really an area, I think that deserves some further study. And it's a hard topic. There was recently, as we're having this conversation, earlier in the month there was a stabbing that happened at a high school out in Texas and a 17 year old died from the stabbing and he was stabbed by another student. But the father of the victim came out the day of and had a press conference and he said publicly, I've already forgiven the murderer.

[A]

And didn't he mention his faith or something? Yes, he did.

[C]

He said, I'm a Christian and I just know God will take care of this. And I've already forgiven him. And he even said the forgiveness is for me, you know, for my peace of mind. And something along those lines. I'm paraphrasing obviously. But yeah, so he, he related it to his faith. He was a Christian and. Or he is a Christian and felt compelled to say that he had already forgiven the murderer. And this was literally just hours after.

[A]

The death of his son.

[C]

Yeah. And then a little after that there was a press conference that was for the family of the murderer.

[A]

By the way, the guy admitted it.

[C]

Yes, the murderer confessed. So he's. He already had been arrested and charged with first degree murder and is now waiting for trial. But he. Yeah, he confessed. And so the family had a. His family, the murderer's family had a press conference in which the victim's father tried to come. He came to it and he said he wanted to come to Pray with them. And just for solidarity. He wanted to have.

[A]

That was his word, solidarity.

[C]

Right. And unity with them. And he specifically said he wanted to pray with them. And they did not respond favorably. They spoke very poorly of the father.

[A]

And they said he was causing problems.

[C]

Yes. That it was disrespectful for him to show up.

[A]

And they kicked him out.

[C]

They had the police come and they escorted him out. They kicked him out.

[A]

And they also said that basically the reason the murder took place was the school's fault or racism or whatever the case may be. Right. There were all kinds of excuses. Yeah. That basically the murderer shouldn't be charged.

[C]

Oh, yeah. The spokesman at this press conference was, quote, unquote, a minister of justice, and he was very much defending the murderer.

[B]

We will rejoin in just a moment. But years ago, Zane Hodges wrote the Gospel Under Siege. Sadly, this is still true. And GES president Bob Wilkin has recently written its sequel. Bob's new book, the Gospel is Still Under Siege is a book about theological clarity on the biblical teaching about eternal salvation. It is available now. Secure yours today at the Grace Evangelical Society's bookstore. Find [e-mail] store. That's faithalone.org store. Now back to today's content.

[A]

And so the question here is, I think there would be some people who would look at the father of the dead boy.

[C]

Right. The victim. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, that's what he should be doing. Yes, he should be. Now, obviously, we could question, are these believers, you know, what is a minister of justice doing defending a murderer? I'm sure that both families would say they're believers. Obviously the victim's father says, I'm a believer.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

I'm assuming the other family does as well. But I don't know that. But let's assume for the sake of argument that is, should the Father have done that? If we define forgiveness as fellowship, what kind of fellowship does he have with this family?

[C]

Well, and he was obviously seeking it. He was seeking some type of solidarity. You know, use his word solidarity, which is just.

[A]

But they don't even have a relationship. No. We know this is controversial, but we don't really think it should be. If forgiveness is indeed restoration of fellowship, how can there be forgiveness when no fellowship exists?

[C]

Well, more. And also to our point here in John 20:23, that there are legitimate times when forgiveness is not called for.

[A]

And in Matthew 18, if you're talking about going to the church and he does not listen, it sounds to me like the murderer in this case, I'm not listening to you.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Get out of here.

[C]

Yes, exactly. I mean, just the mistreatment of the victim's father in this story is just appalling. And I do, my heart goes out to him because I think that he genuinely was trying to have solidarity with them. And I think that he, you know, his faith is like, is telling. You know, he thinks I have to do this because Christ told him, told him that.

[A]

I mean, he says, I forgive him.

[C]

Right. And so, yeah, I just have a lot of sympathy for the father and that he thinks that he has to do that rather than saying, no, he's a murderer and at this point is making excuses for his actions rather than facing the consequences and that it is legitimate to say then he needs to suffer those consequences. And I'm not seeking solidarity with someone like that.

[A]

And again, I would say, and I know this sounds awful hard, I would say that when a relationship does not exist in any way already, I mean, he didn't even know this family. Right.

[C]

And now he's trying to reach out.

[A]

That forgiveness is not the right word. The right word would be, look, I don't want vengeance. I want what's best for him.

[C]

I don't want to be bitter.

[A]

Yeah. If he's not a believer, I hope he becomes a believer through this. But forgiveness is not the biblical word to use here. I forgive him.

[C]

I do want to mention too, in this discussion sometimes what you'll hear is that, well, as Christians, we are to forgive as Christ forgave us. You know, that's what we're told Ephesians. But that's an interesting comment to make because the way that that is applied is again, almost this universal forgiveness. Okay, I'm just supposed to forgive and forget no matter what. But it says we are to forgive as Christ forgave us. Well, does Christ forgive that way? Does the Lord just forgive unconditionally, just all the time, universally, no matter what? Or does the Lord refrain from forgiveness when unrepentant people are continuing in their ways?

[A]

Yeah, he does withholds forgiveness all the time.

[C]

He withholds forgiveness.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

We're out of fellowship with him. When we sin, he just doesn't say, okay, well, it doesn't matter.

[C]

Right?

[A]

You know, it doesn't matter. So just, you know, I forgive you. We're in fellowship. No, you know, I'm having an adulterous affair and, oh, no, I don't have to. I'm still in fellowship with. No, I'm walking in the flesh and I'm out of Fellowship if he doesn't forgive me and I'm supposed to forgive the way he forgives.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Then if the person does not ask for forgiveness, which is what we see in Matthew 18.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And it's also what we see in John 20. If you retain sins, if you don't forgive them, they're not forgiven.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

So it's just a strange thing. And so we thought it deserved two podcasts. And we hope that this is something that causes all of our listeners to.

[C]

Think maybe, can I add, because I know people are, there's going to be some people listening and are like, gosh, she sounds like some ungracious people. And I just want to say that when I think about that case and that that murderer, I think that justice is, is also a form of love. You know, we're told that the Lord rebukes the Pharisees for their, for their legalism in that they have forgotten justice and love in their legalism and in their self righteousness. And so when I think about that murderer, what is the most loving thing for him?

[A]

That he would face the consequences of his actions, which he's not doing.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

For us to say, well, I just forgive you, that's hateful towards him, right?

[C]

To just release him and then what? He potentially goes and murders someone else and he continues to.

[A]

He didn't have a value for the life that he took and then he.

[C]

Just keeps reaping this literal death in his life. Like that's not loving. That part of the Matthew 18 principle is that hopefully by casting you out and making your life uncomfortable, you will come to your senses like the prodigal son and come back into an abiding relationship. But that can't happen if we just excuse it and act as if it never happens. Right? So that is loving.

[A]

Well, we hope this was beneficial and even if you disagree with us, we hope that you think about it. And until we meet again, keep grace in focus.

[B]

We invite you to check out our Monday, Wednesday and Friday five minute YouTube videos at YouTube Grace Evangelical Society. You will love the content and learn a lot. Maybe you've got a question or comment or feedback. If so, please send us a message. Here's our email address. It's radioaithalone.org that's radioaithalone.org Please make sure your question is as succinct and clear as possible. That would be a great big help on our next episode. Salvation without cost in Isaiah. What salvation was he talking about? Please join us and in the meantime, let's keep Grace in focus.

[A]

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