Episode Overview

Podcast: Grace in Focus
Host: Grace Evangelical Society
Episode Title: What is the Forgiving and the Retaining of Sins in John 20:23?
Date: November 5, 2025
Hosts: Ken Yates & Katharine Wright

In this thought-provoking 13-minute episode, Ken Yates and Katharine Wright dig into the often controversial passage of John 20:23, where Jesus speaks to His disciples about forgiving and retaining sins. The duo explores what Jesus meant in this context, distinguishes different types of forgiveness, and wrestles with the tension between biblical mandates and common Christian practice, especially in the context of church life and real-world tragedy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Understanding John 20:23 (01:00–02:04)

• Scripture Quoted:

  “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

• Experiential Forgiveness vs. Positional Forgiveness:
  • Ken Yates clarifies that Jesus is addressing the disciples regarding experiential fellowship with God and with one another, not eternal salvation.
  • The church has both a message and a practice: When a believer confesses and repents, the church forgives and restores fellowship; when a person does not repent, forgiveness (and fellowship) is withheld.

2. The Limits of Forgiveness in Church Practice (02:04–03:38)

• Challenging “Unconditional Forgiveness”:
  • Many Christians assert, “we just need to forgive no matter what” (Ken, 02:15), but Yates and Wright contest this view.
• Matthew 18 as Precedent:
  • Ken references the process described by Jesus: repeatedly approaching a sinning brother, escalating to church involvement, and ultimately, if there is no repentance, breaking fellowship.

  • “When we sin, and [the offender] does not listen...then you treat him as a Gentile...” (Ken, 01:40)

3. Why Withholding Forgiveness is Controversial (03:08–03:51)

• Western Church Practice:
  • Katharine questions why church discipline is so rare in the West, noting people often “just go down to the church next door.”
• Practical Example:
  • Ken’s experience: confronting church members about sin rarely leads to excommunication; more often, the unrepentant simply leave.

4. Modern Example: Forgiveness in the Face of Tragedy (03:51–06:32)

• Case Study – Texas High School Stabbing:
  • Katharine recounts a recent story where a father publicly forgave his son’s murderer within hours of his son’s death:

    “He said...‘I’m a Christian and I just know God will take care of this. And I’ve already forgiven him. The forgiveness is for me, for my peace of mind.’” (Katharine, 04:38)

  • The father attempts to join the murderer's family at their press conference for “solidarity,” but is rebuffed and escorted out by police. The murderer's family blames external factors and refuses his gesture.

5. Should Forgiveness Be Extended in Such Situations? (07:07–09:44)

• Evaluating the Father’s Actions:
  • Ken: “Should the father have done that? If we define forgiveness as fellowship, what kind of fellowship does he have with this family?” (07:35)
  • Katharine emphasizes the lack of relationship and questions the substance of forgiveness when there is no existing fellowship: “If forgiveness is indeed restoration of fellowship, how can there be forgiveness when no fellowship exists?” (08:00)
• Biblical Nuance:
  • The episode questions the widespread interpretation that Christians must universally forgive, comparing it to how Christ forgives: “Does the Lord just forgive unconditionally, just all the time, universally, no matter what? Or does the Lord refrain from forgiveness when unrepentant people are continuing in their ways?” (Katharine, 10:01)

6. Forgiving as Christ Forgave Us (09:55–11:14)

• Ephesians' Command Reconsidered:
  • Katharine points to the injunction that Christians “forgive as Christ forgave us,” arguing for a conditional element:

    “He withholds forgiveness. We’re out of fellowship with him when we sin, He just doesn’t say, ‘Okay, well, it doesn’t matter.’” (Ken, 10:39)

  • Ken asserts that ongoing, unrepentant sin leads to a break in fellowship until there is confession and repentance.

7. Justice as Love and the Role of Consequences (11:25–12:45)

• Justice is Loving:
  • Katharine and Ken both suggest that seeking justice can be the loving choice:

    “Justice is also a form of love. ...What is the most loving thing for [the murderer]? That he would face the consequences of his actions, which he's not doing.” (Katharine, 11:59; Ken, 11:59)

  • They warn that prematurely offering forgiveness (“I just forgive you”) can be “hateful towards him”—it absolves the person of consequences which might otherwise prompt repentance.
• Matthew 18 Principle:
  • The temporary exclusion from fellowship is intended, as with the “prodigal son,” to lead to eventual restoration.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ken Yates [02:15]: “Many Christians say, well, we just need to forgive no matter what, unconditionally. And we ended that previous podcast with saying no. The Lord says, and there are some sins that we retain, we do not forgive.”
• Katharine Wright [04:36]: “The father of the victim came out the day of and had a press conference and he said publicly, ‘I’ve already forgiven the murderer.’ ...He said, ‘I’m a Christian and I just know God will take care of this.’”
• Katharine Wright [08:00]: “If forgiveness is indeed restoration of fellowship, how can there be forgiveness when no fellowship exists?”
• Ken Yates [10:39]: “He withholds forgiveness. We’re out of fellowship with him when we sin, he just doesn’t say, ‘Okay, well, it doesn’t matter.’”
• Katharine Wright [11:25]: “Justice is also a form of love. ... What is the most loving thing for him? That he would face the consequences of his actions, which he’s not doing.”
• Ken Yates [12:04]: “For us to say, ‘Well, I just forgive you,’ that's hateful towards him, right?”

Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Summary | |-----------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:00 | Introduction and reading of John 20:23 scene. | | 02:04 | Differentiation between experiential and positional forgiveness. | | 03:51 | Real-life example: Father forgiving son's killer, publically and immediately. | | 07:07 | Discussion on whether the father's forgiveness was appropriate or biblical in this situation. | | 09:55 | Re-examining “forgiving as Christ forgave us”—conditional or unconditional? | | 11:25 | Biblical justice as a manifestation of love; the role of church discipline and consequences for restoration. |

Conclusion

Ken Yates and Katharine Wright offer a countercultural perspective, arguing for a biblical forgiveness rooted in repentance and fellowship, rather than the blanket “forgive no matter what” approach common in modern Christianity. Using both Scripture and a contemporary tragedy, they highlight that love sometimes requires withholding forgiveness and seeking justice as a path to restoration. The discussion is both theologically rich and pastorally sensitive, challenging listeners to rethink easy assumptions about forgiveness in the Christian life.