Paul Jamison (2:52)

take it from Joey. I've seen your backyard.

Joey Koberle (2:54)

No, my backyard looks horrible. Yeah, I put no attention to detail back there or anything. But basically we all came together. We wanted to make the best product for lawn care companies to help them scale for the small guys. And so we've basically built a feedback loop to where we're taking inputs from people in lawn care and building a product that would serve them best. And so when we started, we didn't really know what it was. We're like, let's just tell us. You know, we had clientele. We're like, we can build this if you tell us what you need. And so that's been the past year. So now we basically come up with monthly recurring workshops that we run where we all sit together. We have accountability community, and we work on planning our quarter out. So creating a marketing plan, learning what numbers to track. And it's kind of like a study hall almost. And then every quarter we actually just sit down, we answer their questions. You know, I've got a question about this number I'm tracking. I've got a question about what marketing strategy I should implement. And it's all done in a group so that it's fun and it's not isolating. Because I think we all hate being isolated all the time in our head all the time. Not really know what direction to choose. So it's. It's workshop based, it's accountability based. We're going to teach you to track all the numbers that the big dogs track. So you create really good habits early on. Many guys track the wrong numbers. They don't really know what to do. They kind of just reduce circles every year. Every year is Groundhog Day. So, yeah, it's monthly workshops with all four of us in there. And we teach and we hang out and we have a good time doing all the boring office work and we strategize. And so that's really what lawn care launch is. At least our entry program. And man, it's been a blast. I look forward to them every month. We've gotten really good feedback from them. Yeah.

Paul Jamison (4:41)

Do you have any stories of any lawn care business owners that have really transformed working with your team?

Joey Koberle (4:48)

Yeah, absolutely. And it's only been, I think, nine months now that we've been doing this. But some of the coolest thing that I've seen is a lot of guys, since it's such an inviting atmosphere, they'll bring their wives into it. And so they'll start collaborating with their wives and they'll give him some pushback on maybe some decisions he's trying to make or, you know, and they're, they're kind of collaborating together and building together. And that's, that's what Megan and I do. That's what Kevin and his wife do. And then that's what Stephanie and her husband do. And so we're all just doing, we're teaching what we do inside of it. And so people bring their spouses and I don't know, I think it deepens relationships and decreases stress and all kinds of stuff. But I think that's the greatest feedback we've had is just how, how family focused it is. Really. Yeah.

Paul Jamison (5:31)

That's good. You talk about decreasing stress. And I think for a lot of small business owners in this industry, the spring rush, it's such a chaotic time of the year because the demand for the services is thankfully through the roof. And the labor issue, it's just challenging to motivate somebody to go mow grass all day or to, you know, fling mulch all day. So, so what is your advice, Joey, to somebody who is listening right now in their truck and they're like, I'm stressed out, Paul. Just, I just need, I just need a word to get me through the day. Like it's, it's been a ringer of a spring rush.

Joey Koberle (6:08)

Well, I would say that's why we plan our quarter out. That's why we started doing this. Because a lot of what you're feeling in April is because maybe you didn't think about it for three months or you didn't plan accordingly on a marketing strategy on, or how, how to, to deal with all the demand early on. You know, a lot of, it's like, Kevin will speak on this. I'm not going to be the expert on grass, but he'll say your, your grass kind of carries over year to year depending on how you did the previous season. And so if he's, if he's kind of coming into the season, haven't already taken care of their lawns, he knows what to expect moving forward, you know, and so it's like the same thing with your business. You, you have to continually plan and forward, look and implement the plan, and then the plan will keep you accountable to actually do the thing. And so, yeah, I think a lot of times, I mean, it is hard ramping up production. Obviously it's A shock to the system, but if you can have a plan for it, it's so much easier to get into it.

Paul Jamison (7:00)

That's good. Well, talking about a plan, something that you and Megan and Sheila have helped me with since I started working with all y' all in 2020. Um, Megan is Joey's wife, and Megan Koberly, and then Sheila is a tax advisor, tax preparer, tax planner. She's also a certified financial planner. She has a separate company over in South Carolina. But you guys kind of, you know, work. Work together with her. But you collectively, you guys have really helped me turn things around with taxes and understanding taxes. And the hardest part for me is saving the appropriate amount so that when the tax bills are due, I actually have the money saved. So what. What advice can you give to understanding tax law and then, most importantly, having the muscle or discipline to save Joey for the tax bills. And what's your been experience? You know, what's your experience been like, how do you and Megan save in your business to pay your taxes?

Joey Koberle (8:05)

Yeah, I'm not a tax expert. I don't pretend to be one. That's why I defer to Sheila on a lot of this stuff. And, you know, she goes to all the tax conferences. It keeps up. It's always changing. Right. So I don't want to be responsible for all that. It's not even really my wheelhouse. But I will say we follow profit first, and it's always worked really well for us. And profit first, if you're not familiar with it, it's kind of like a way to do cash flow and budgeting early on, and it scales too. But yeah, if you're. It's broken down into revenue tiers. So, for example, if you're doing under 250,000 in revenue, it'll say take 50% for your compensation and then use 30% for your operating expenses. And then 15% goes to taxes, and then 5% goes to profit. That's the framework for under 250,000. And so you take your income twice a month, and then once you. Once you have your income in a big bucket, you take 15% of that and you move it to a separate account, and you just don't touch it. And then every quarter, you pay your quarterly taxes with them with the money that's in there. And I mean, I'll tell you what, it's hit us. We've hit the nail on the head most years with that. We don't usually have to pay anything. We don't get a big check back. You Know, and if you listen to Dave Ramsey or if you listen to, you know, Paul enough, you probably. I think you talk about this, Paul, but the. Getting your tax liability at zero by the end of the year is kind of the goal because you don't want to let the government use your money and vice versa. But, yeah, I recommend profit first because it's worked really well for us. I've done it for eight years, and it's given me lots of peace of mind. So that's my tax advice. I'm not a. Everybody on my team knows I hate taxes more than anybody, so I definitely don't want to be the one to give all.

Paul Jamison (9:48)

You can testify that you and Megan, when the tax bills are due, you pay them in full by the due date, which it sounds like you're doing. The estimated quarterly payments, June 15th, September 15th, January 15th, and April 15th. So you guys stay current with those.

Joey Koberle (10:06)

Yeah, exactly. And it's all about maintaining your. Your cash flow. You don't want to have a shock to your ecosystem. You don't want to have one year where you have to pay, you know, 30% or whatever. You want to keep it at even flow. 15, keep it going, and that's half. The name of the gaming business is just making sure everything's steady and the cash flow is good.

Paul Jamison (10:26)

Yeah. Shout outs to Adept Lawn Care, Massachusetts. Tuning in there on Instagram. Thanks. This kind of. This is a new era of the show here, being live on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn. I put on this fancy golf shirt that Turtleson sent me, and I'm feeling fresh. I got a tee time this afternoon, Joey, so.

Joey Koberle (10:46)

Oh, do you?

Paul Jamison (10:46)

Oh, yeah. Looking. Looking forward to that.

Joey Koberle (10:51)

I thought you had something important to do.

Paul Jamison (10:53)

I'm golfing with these multimillionaire guys.

Joey Koberle (10:56)

Oh, okay, okay, okay.

Paul Jamison (10:58)

I'm learning a lot about business golfing with. With these. These fellas. They don't. They're not just multimillionaires. They make multiple millions a year in their personal income to two different guys I golf with, but they both make millions each year. It's just very motivating being around them because I pick up on things and, you know, I leave the golf course very inspired to. To reach my potential like God's given us each in the parable of the talents, you know, gave one guy one piece of talent or silver one guy five, one guy two, I think. And the ones that multiplied theirs got rewarded with even more. But the guy who buried his under the sand was called lazy and wicked. And when I hang around These guys, I'm just like, man, they're, they're, they're multiplying their talents. Like, they're not, they're not anything extraordinary. There's regular dudes that, that are, that are out there serving people and crushing it, and it's so motivating.

Joey Koberle (11:56)

So what I like about it too, I know some of the guys that you're talking about, it's, it's the impact that I like. It's like, what, what is downstream from all that money that they're gaining? Like, if you listen to any of their people that give testimonials, they speak very highly of those people. The impact is, is what it's all about for me in business. And the, the more profitable you can be, more you can expand your influence and the more impact you can have in more lives. And that's, that's what I think. It's a big part of being a good steward of what you're talking about.

Paul Jamison (12:23)

Yeah, that's so good. I had one more question before we close the tax loop you were mentioning. 15% of is what Mike Malitz recommends of revenue. Is that something that works? If, if, if I make a hundred dollars and I take 15 of that and immediately put it into my tax savings account? Well, will that be if you're under 250,000 in revenue, would that work? Or at what point I would need to do more what you just clarify.

Joey Koberle (12:57)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry. I would say in order for that framework to work, you need to have the other metrics doing that. So you need to be taking the 50% owner's compensation, you need to be paying 30% to OPEX, and you need to be taking 5% of profit, and that's when the 15% comes in. If you're not doing that system, definitely reach out to a tax professional because there's so many other things that go into it. But that, that framework that he's built out, if you do the actual metrics, that's about what you're going to have to pay. From my experience and from what I've heard a lot of other people talk about as well.

Paul Jamison (13:23)

Okay. And I would just say, as somebody who's worked with you guys, and each year I've gotten better. Like, I feel like, I guess it's been seven, six or seven years, depending on how you, how you run the math. But the, the wake up call for me is like you have to be saving money all the time towards your taxes, and it's just, it's just a part of the Business. Because before I started a business, Joey, you know, I worked at a place called Best Burger. Big accomplishment in life. But they, you know, they, they set money for my taxes. Like I didn't, I didn't have to ever worry about taxes. It was just like I was a W2 employee and they paid my taxes. And then I worked at a dining hall in college. They paid my taxes. So when I became a small business owner, it was like this just giant wake up call that I gotta pay taxes. And it's just, it's been, hasn't been fun, but it's been more fun actually being able to save up and pay. Pay the bills, you know, in full.

Joey Koberle (14:27)

Yeah, yeah. Running your own business, you quickly realize how much you actually have to pay in. You don't really feel it too much in a normal job. You don't actually get to see it come out like you do in a tangible way when you run your own company. I've had my conversation with my dad all the time about this. He's like, I did not realize how much our small businesses in America have to pay in. Just from our conversations we've had. It just blows his mind.

Paul Jamison (14:55)

Have you ever felt like you're drowning in scattered quotes, schedules and chasing payments that never come easy? I've been there with you. I used to be a chuck in the truck. Completely disorganized and constantly chasing payments. But then I started using jobber back in 2019 and it was a complete game changer for my business. Still using it today. I love it and recommend it to all my coaching clients. Now Jobber is an all in one business app software where you can store customer information, send quotes and invoices, schedule your appointments, and even collect payments. Best of all, you know I talk about this a lot on the podcast. You can save a credit card on file for automatic and hassle free payments. No more awkward follow ups or lost money. You ready to simplify your business operations? Check the link in the show notes and use my special Jobber link and try it for free. You won't look back. Most jobs go to the first contractor that picks up the phone. But you can't answer the phone when you're on a lawnmower. So here's a solution. It's called Voice Assist by CallRail. I'm going to show you how it works. I'm going to call a pest control company that uses voice assist. Take a listen.

CallRail Voice Assistant (16:09)

Hi, thanks for calling the pest patrol. I'm Betty, a virtual assistant. What's bugging you?

Paul Jamison (16:15)

Hey, Betty. I wanted to see if you could schedule somebody to come out, take a look at my property and give me a quote for pest control. I was looking for yearly service.

CallRail Voice Assistant (16:23)

Sure, I can help with that. Do you have any questions about our services before we get started? Collecting some details.

Paul Jamison (16:29)

What would it cost to come once a quarter?

CallRail Voice Assistant (16:31)

We offer a quarterly service plan with four treatments per year. The cost typically ranges from $350 to $480 annually. Keep in mind, final pricing depends on an in person evaluation.

Paul Jamison (16:44)

Yeah, let's get one scheduled.

CallRail Voice Assistant (16:45)

Can I have your first and last name, please?

Paul Jamison (16:47)

Paul Jamison.

CallRail Voice Assistant (16:48)

I've got several openings. For example, on Thursday, March 19, we have 10:00am, 10:30am, 11:00am and more throughout the afternoon. Would any of those work for you?

Paul Jamison (16:59)

Yeah, 10am Works.

CallRail Voice Assistant (17:00)

Your appointment is confirmed for Thursday, March 19th at 10am and a confirmation email has been sent. Could you share the address of the location where you'd like to service?

Paul Jamison (17:09)

Sure. It's 1234 Main Street.

CallRail Voice Assistant (17:12)

Is there anything else I can assist you with today?

Paul Jamison (17:14)

Oh, that's it. Thank you so much, Betty.

CallRail Voice Assistant (17:16)

Thank you for your call.

Paul Jamison (17:17)

Well, did you hear that? That's CallRail's voice assist. It's so good. It speaks for itself. You can qualify more leads, book more jobs and stop losing opportunities to businesses down the street. Try it for free@voice assist.com Again, that's voice assist.com. It's wild. Was there anything we're leaving out here, Joey?

Joey Koberle (17:48)

Yeah, yeah, I wanted to throw out. You know, I mentioned the workshops that we do monthly basis, that that's something that you could join our program. But we also have a bite size offer if you want to just try it out and get a little taste of it. It's called the Think and Act Like a CEO challenge. And I'll, I'll send you the link to it. You can put in the description. But basically it's going to help you discover your profitability by the end of the week. We teach you all the numbers to track. We help you create a little bit of a marketing plan. Write your first sop. I know AI can do it, but you need to learn how to write them before you have AI writing them for you. And yeah, it's $197. But you have a chance to win all your money back if you do all the steps that we say inside of it. So no risk on your half if you just do the steps because we want you to actually do the work. We would have made it free, but we want to have some money on the table so that you can actually do the work and be accountable. Because I know how big accountability is in any industry. So yeah, it's called think and act like a CEO challenge. Help you think and act like, like the big dogs, like the way they run their companies. So yeah, hope to, hope to see you there. And then I've also got a podcast called the Lawn care launch podcast with myself and Kevin Salters that run it and we talk about all things lawn care. We do a lot of. I did a 27 part scaling series last year. We've done a 15 park have make your business have a big impact series. Just kind of philosophical things and financial, it's, it's a little bit everything. My financial brain meeting Kevin's experiential brain. So yeah, check that out. We're always on there having a good time, but other than that, I think that's it.

Paul Jamison (19:16)

Paul, what about Equip Expo? Last year was your first year. You guys planning on going back for, for the second year here or what?

Joey Koberle (19:24)

Yeah, yeah, we went ahead and paid for our booth so we'll be there. Hopefully we're getting a little better location. I know you're laughing at ours. Last time it was bad, I'm going to lie. But yeah, I hope to hope to meet some new faces there and see some clients and just, you know, hang out, have a good time and expand our network and yeah, it was one of the most fun trips I've ever been on. So I'm looking forward to this year.

Paul Jamison (19:47)

Yeah. So you're, you guys from Pensacola, you drove up there to Louisville or flew.

Joey Koberle (19:54)

Yeah, so we drove, we rented a minivan and we rode up there with. It was me, Megan, Stephanie, who we mentioned earlier, and her husband Mikey. I've had him on my show, Pastor Mikey. And yeah, we had a good time, just talked. Shoot. He's a seminary student so we talked theology almost the whole way up there. It was a good time.

Paul Jamison (20:14)

Okay.

Joey Koberle (20:15)

But yeah, I think it's like 10 hours or something like that.

Paul Jamison (20:17)

Nice. Well, I really appreciate your time, Joey and I'm grateful to you and Megan for teaching me all of this stuff throughout the years. I mean, I feel like when I started working with you, I didn't really know what a balance sheet was. I didn't know what a statement of cash flow statement was or, or necessarily how to read those. I, I was familiar with the profit and loss statement, but I really feel like over the years customizing the profit and loss statement to where I can look at it and understand, you know, what's truly going on in my business. You guys have helped me fine tune that. And then I think most importantly is kind of understanding what my break even is. Because if I can, I think I have a tendency of being lazy, which isn't biblical and it isn't good. Like, God honors diligence and hard work and things of that nature. But if I can kind of know, here's what. Here's the goal. Like, here's what you got to make this month that's really helped me over the years, because then it's kind of like until I hit that number each month, I kind of got to go, like, go really, really hard. And then once I kind of surpass the break even, I don't want to say I put the sword down. But you kind of like, okay, we made another month. But I don't know, that's just how my. That's just how my brain works.

Joey Koberle (21:34)

I think that's amazing. Like, I. I think that almost everyone needs a vision and a goal. Like, I think almost all problems are downstream from that. The guys that don't have a vision or a goal, they're the ones that are living in this randomness and stressed out all the time. The minute we've worked with clients and have them build a vision and a set of goals out, the clarity just opens up and you actually do the thing. Like, it's. It's. Everybody comes to me for numbers stuff, but it ends up being, we'll cast your vision first. Where do you want to go? And then we'll build the numbers into that, you know? But before you know where you're headed, you. It's like I talked about earlier with the car. If you don't know its direction, what's the first thing they say in the movies when they head out on the boat? It's like, we have our heading. Right. Like, you need to know where you're going first. Yeah. In order to actually learn the language of business and build systems and processes and everything that you hear everywhere, you got to know where you're headed, man.

Paul Jamison (22:23)

Yeah. Speaking of boats, Al Blades just left us a comment on Instagram. What's up? Al Blades?

CallRail Voice Assistant (22:28)

He.

Paul Jamison (22:28)

He's a. He's a fisherman. He's an outdoorsman.

Joey Koberle (22:32)

Okay. Okay. Yeah, I've listened to him on the show before. What's up, Al?

Paul Jamison (22:35)

Oh, yeah, he. He does. He. He. He lives over there on the other side of Florida on the Atlantic Ocean side.

Joey Koberle (22:41)

Okay.

Paul Jamison (22:42)

I miss you, Al. We gotta play a little golf, man. Maybe a little sand ridge. Come out there and play a little golf. So I, I met yesterday, I was at an IV place. I got an iv, and the nurse is from Fort Pierce, Florida.

Joey Koberle (23:00)

Al.

Paul Jamison (23:01)

She was like, yeah, I'm from a little town you probably never heard of at Fort Pierce. I've been to Fort Pierce. And I was like, I got a buddy who was born and raised there. So, yeah, buddy. All right, Al, we gotta play some golf, man. I'm a little bit better than the last time we played. I've been playing a lot of golf, so I've gotten better. That's a great. It's a great networking. All right, Joey, any. Any final, final thoughts here before I, I end our successful live stream?

Joey Koberle (23:30)

No. Great job on the live stream, man. No, I got nothing. I think that's it. I think we covered it all. Thanks for having me on, man.

Paul Jamison (23:34)

Yeah. Well, check out Joey's stuff, the. The link if you're listening. Eventually this will come out on Apple Podcasts and Spotify podcast, and Mr. Producer will put those links to Joey's stuff in the show notes. And also, you guys still offer bookkeeping services. I know you take care of mine.

Joey Koberle (23:49)

Yeah, yeah, we got the landscaping bookkeeper schedule, 15 Minute Call, the landscapingbook.com. love to have you there as well. Yeah, we got a lot of stuff going on, but yeah, yeah, if you

Paul Jamison (23:57)

want squeaky clean books and understand your numbers, I'm telling you guys, I use Megan and Joey as my bookkeepers, and they're, they're world class, so they can take good care of you. And then listen to the Lawn Care Launch podcast. That's Joey and Kevin's show. It used to be called the Joey Koberly show, which I told him to name it the Joey Koberly Show. Now he's changing.

Joey Koberle (24:14)

What I said. Kevin was always on there. I'm like, it can't be the Joey Koberly show. And Kevin's just always in the background. He does every episode with me. It just felt like I was feeling his thunder. I mean, everybody comes to listen to Kevin. Not me. You know, I'm just, I'm just there. Kevin's the one with all the knowledge.

Paul Jamison (24:30)

Yeah. And I'll just share this. Al said he's getting worse at golf. It's all right. Maybe we can do a scramble. Al Blaze might be the best putter. We. We started playing and Al started making these 30, 40 footers under pressures, hole 17, hole 18. And then we, we went into a playoff hole. And I'll, you know, just. His putter caught on fire. So don't give me that on worse. He. Once he gets on the greed, he can putt with the best of them. But I forgot what I was saying about the podcast, Joey.

Joey Koberle (25:04)

You were saying that you helped me name it, and then I changed it.

Paul Jamison (25:07)

Yeah, you changed the name because Jonathan Pitoshnik, I asked him. He's worth over $100 million. He's worth a lot of money. What's the biggest mistake you ever made? Or like? And he. And he shared a couple of mistakes. One was he's like, I wish I would have had more kids. He's like, we have two wonderful sons. They're terrific human beings. Like, they're very productive in society, and they turned out great. But he's like, I just wish we would have had more. Because he's like, we're.

Joey Koberle (25:32)

Yeah, and I get that we're busy

Paul Jamison (25:33)

running our business and everything, and. And he's got all this money now, but he's only got two kids to enjoy it with. He's like, I wish we would have had more kids.

Joey Koberle (25:40)

Yeah.

Paul Jamison (25:41)

So I always took note of that and I was like, okay, have more than two kids. And then the other thing he mentioned to me is he kind of wish he would have started his personal brand, like, earlier because he kind of named everything, like lawn care millionaire, and he just didn't brand like Jonathan Patosnik. Like, you mentioned Alex Hermosi earlier, like my friend Myron Golden. Like, he brands himself like, so. So when a lot of people just don't know Jonathan Patosnik, he never branded that. So that's why I told you to name it Joey.

Joey Koberle (26:11)

No, no, I still plan on. You know, I have my personal brand I'm working on a little bit on Instagram. You can follow me on there. I'm starting up YouTube soon here and really trying to focus on personal branding. But, yeah, I can't sit there with my co host who does every episode with me and call it my show. It's like, it's literally his show too. You know, I just felt. I don't know, I. I do things more from. From a. What feels right.

Paul Jamison (26:32)

Yeah, no, I. It feels. It feels right to me, too. The lawn care.

Joey Koberle (26:36)

And yeah, on the kids thing, man, I 100 agree. I've got two kids. I thought we were going to be done after this. And now I'm like, I look back at everything. Yeah, I was telling Megan this. I was like, look back at everything we've accomplished. And, you know, my kids are what I talk about the most. That's what I'M most proud of. So I'm like, definitely. You know, we'll probably have three or four. Who knows?

Paul Jamison (26:55)

Cranking them out.

Joey Koberle (26:56)

Joey started earlier because it's the, it's the coolest thing in the world.

Paul Jamison (26:59)

Yeah, Once I find my wife, she better get ready. We're crank them out. So I'm on a mission. All right, Joey, I gotta, I gotta go hop on this call. But as always, thanks for, thanks for the encouragement. Thanks for being on the program. Always a good time. Catching up with Joey Coberly. Hey, folks, quick reminder. We got the Equip Expo coming up October 20th through 23rd in good old Louisville, Kentucky. This year, you can get your tickets for only $12.50 with the promo code. Paul. If you get them today, the prices go up the closer you get to the show. You don't want to have to pay full price for your ticket this year. So if you haven't already booked your Equip Expo tickets, you can get those again for only $12.50 today with the promo code, Paul. The link to register is in today's show notes. And honestly, we. While you're at it, I would reserve your hotel room while the good hotels are still available as well. On the Equip Expo website, they have a little button that says book hotel. And when you click on that, they have a partnership with the Louisville tourism folks. And some of the nicest hotels in Louisville are on there as of today. But they won't, they definitely won't be on there as you get closer to the show because they'll all fill up all the good rooms and then you're left with the, the secondary hotels. I'm not going to start naming names because people, people laugh at me when I, when I start, start by hotels. You see how LeBron James get all that trouble when he, he was talking about the hotels in Memphis, that made a big scene. So I don't, I don't want to sound like I'm too, too. I don't. There's not even a right word. But listen, folks, when you stay at a raggedy hotel and then you stay at a nice hotel, it's like your brain thinks, okay, I never want to stay that raggedy hotel again. What, what, what do I got to do in life that when I go to the hotel, it can be this nice, safe, pleasant experience rather than the scary experience at the other hotel, right? So with that being said, not every hotel room in Louisville, Kentucky is the same. And there's opportunities, there's opportunities to get in at the good ones on the Louisville tourism website there that's connected to the Equip Expo website. So my encouragement to you is Book your hotel. If you know you're going to the Quip Expo this year, October 20th through 23rd in Louisville, Kentucky, I would book your hotel today, get your ticket today. Why the the ticket's cheap and get that trip planned, so hope that helps get Catch you on the next episode.

Paul Jamison (29:56)

Hey, it's Marty, producer of the Green Industry podcast. This episode is over, but check the episode notes for links to products and services that you heard about during the episode. And thanks for listening.

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Paul Jamison (30:38)

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